Are there any versions of Genesis games that are better then the SNES verision? [Archive] - Page 3

pato

05-19-2010, 08:46 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5nVYcfylzc

Music for Super Adventure Island for SNES. Done by non other then legendary composer Yuzo Koshiro.

Of course we all know that he was responsible for the music in Revenge of Shinobi and the Streets of Rage series on the Genesis\Mega Drive. Here is one composer that got quality from both machines and pulled off some very impressive stuff. Yuzo also made an impressive soundtrack for Actraiser for the SNES actually. Anyways...

I am in the same boat as some here that say that both had their strengths and weaknesses. The one thing about the SNES is that unless you have a powerful PC to run the proper emulator, the sound is not accurate compared to an actual SNES. The only thing that I could say the SNES was superior in, was perhaps in voice clarity. Then again, in the right hands, the Genesis could pull off good voice samples.

PresidentLeever

05-19-2010, 11:40 PM

SNES EarthBound heavy metal music "Pokey Means Business" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grQkblTqSMs) (skip to 0:53) vs. Genesis Lightening Force/Thunder Force IV heavy metal music Stage 8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yhi_bK1bH4U). Which one sounds better?

Yes, but that type of stuff is mainly used in synth pop and techno. So on the Genesis, you can have awesome electronica or poorly orchestrated music. That doesn't seem like much flexibility to me.

Pretty different styles there, I think this one is more appropriate for comparison: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shOg6liHRYk&feature=related&fmt=18

In either songs though I prefer the guitar sound in TFIV, it's more menacing and gritty and it sounds more like an instrument being played than a sample being shaped into a melody, if that makes any sense. Also keep in mind that TFIV isn't using samples for its drums, only FM.

To me it's pretty obvious that an 80s FM chip isn't going to excel at non electronic music, but that doesn't mean it's not flexible as far as different timbres and the high to low end spectrum goes. The SNES can sample any synth sound of course, but it won't sound as good as the original source. Apart from the above posted Adventure Island, there are few SNES games with bass as good as most MD games. The filters on the SNES chip (which is removed or improved by most emulators) also removes some clarity from the sound.

As for orchestrated music on MD, these are the most impressive soundtracks I could think of:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9oippiC9tM&feature=related&fmt=18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOagvSmosBg&feature=related&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brUFB5z1i7E&feature=related&fmt=18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT6pYvAkJcA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFMsrHCFXj0
Fan made, 6:50

To balance this post out a bit, I would also like to post one of the worst uses of the MD chip I've heard, from Doom 32X:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2oyweqZ7WM&feature=related
:)

j_factor

05-20-2010, 01:39 AM

Yes, but that type of stuff is mainly used in synth pop and techno. So on the Genesis, you can have awesome electronica or poorly orchestrated music. That doesn't seem like much flexibility to me.

The term "electronica" covers worlds and worlds of music. There are big differences between trance, techno, hardcore, jungle, downbeat, electro, big beat, etc.

This does all come down to taste though. Personally, orchestrated music on the SNES never impressed me. It's more realistic than Genesis, but it still doesn't sound as good as a real orchestra. Whereas, nothing does Genesis-style music better than the Genesis. The Genesis soundchip is basically its own unique multi-faceted instrument, like a Groovebox.

Also, I had a Turbo CD for two years before I had an SNES. So to me the SNES's "realistic instruments" were a significant step down. Whereas the Genesis was more of a step sideways, to a different sound.

Something that kind of demonstrates this is the "Sega Tunes" CD series. It's a series of five Genesis game soundtrack CD's, where they took tracks from the game and remade them with real instruments. Instead of simply sounding better, they sound very different. Whereas with the Final Fantasy VI orchestral soundtrack (Grand Finale), it just sounds like much better versions of the same tracks.

Thanks for clearing that up and confirming my suspicions. I downloaded and listened to the MP3 file and the sound quality is better than the YouTube video, but it still has that shrill, grating, annoying Genesis tone to it. The song is impressive overall, but piercing.

The fact that it's "piercing" is part of what I like about it. It's supposed to sound that way; it was intended. It's not trying to be Brian Eno. You must not like any sort of hard electronica, industrial, or punk rock.

123►Genei-Jin

05-20-2010, 01:56 AM

This is one track I like on both systems:
Earthworm Jim 2 - Lorenzen's Soil (Genesis) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvpgzJzNE8)

Earthworm Jim 2 - Lorenzen's Soil (SNES) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxNpfNCYuj8&feature=related)

I like the SNES version a bit better though.

Rob2600

05-20-2010, 02:45 AM

Apart from the above posted Adventure Island, there are few SNES games with bass as good as most MD games.

The Genesis games I grew up playing had hardly any bass at all (Altered Beast, Space Harrier II, Golden Axe, etc.). Sonic the Hedgehog sounded a bit better, but still very synthy. I've always preferred the sampled instruments of the SNES.

As for orchestrated music on MD, these are the most impressive soundtracks I could think of:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9oippiC9tM&feature=related&fmt=18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOagvSmosBg&feature=related&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brUFB5z1i7E&feature=related&fmt=18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT6pYvAkJcA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFMsrHCFXj0
Fan made, 6:50

Nice examples. They sound very good...but again, too much on the synthy side for me. I still prefer SNES music most of the time. I guess it's just a matter of taste.

To balance this post out a bit, I would also like to post one of the worst uses of the MD chip I've heard, from Doom 32X:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2oyweqZ7WM&feature=related
:)

Wow. Why did the developer bother creating "music" at all?? On the SNES side, I present to you Pit-Fighter. There's only one song in the entire game that loops infinitely:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8t3Z1EtXwY&fmt=18

I apologize in advance.

The term "electronica" covers worlds and worlds of music. ... This does all come down to taste though. Personally, orchestrated music on the SNES never impressed me. It's more realistic than Genesis, but it still doesn't sound as good as a real orchestra. ... I had a Turbo CD for two years before I had an SNES. So to me the SNES's "realistic instruments" were a significant step down.

Maybe I'm weird, but I've never been a fan of redbook/digitized audio in video games. It seems like cheating to me. Anybody can make redbook audio. I'm much more impressed by a developer who sweats over the MIDI music and pushes the limitations to create fantastic sounding real-time music.

The fact that it's "piercing" is part of what I like about it. It's supposed to sound that way; it was intended. It's not trying to be Brian Eno. You must not like any sort of hard electronica, industrial, or punk rock.

I like some classic punk rock, but I don't recall any Ramones songs featuring thin, grating, high pitched 1980s synths. :)

This is one track I like on both systems:
Earthworm Jim 2 - Lorenzen's Soil (Genesis) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvpgzJzNE8)

Earthworm Jim 2 - Lorenzen's Soil (SNES) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxNpfNCYuj8&feature=related)

I like the SNES version a bit better though.

The SNES version sounds excellent!

j_factor

05-20-2010, 03:40 AM

I like some classic punk rock, but I don't recall any Ramones songs featuring thin, grating, high pitched 1980s synths. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj29sqvKb6U :)

(It was an analogy, by the way.)

tom

05-20-2010, 03:44 AM

So far we been hearing the music in comparisons, and the Megadrive coming out top 99% of the time.

allyourblood

05-20-2010, 03:45 AM

Maybe I'm weird, but I've never been a fan of redbook/digitized audio in video games. It seems like cheating to me. Anybody can make redbook audio. I'm much more impressed by a developer who sweats over the MIDI music and pushes the limitations to create fantastic sounding real-time music.

A large portion of music in CD-based games (well, a lot of the orchestral stuff, anyway) from the early 90s was recorded using MIDI and generated by synthesizers and tone generators; save for the occasional guitar lead, most what you hear is a synthesizer, including drums and bass. A perfect example would be Ys I & II for the Turbo CD, although there are literally hundreds more. Take your SNES, record its output to your computer, edit, master and submit. They're the same thing, although obviously a lot more steps are involved in actual live audio recording - things like effects, compression, levels, mastering...

Anybody can make redbook audio? I'm guessing you've not spent much time with MIDI/synthesizers/music production in general. If you had, you'd know that composing on a synthesizer is ridiculously easy compared to producing a professional live performance and mastering it to CD. At best, SNES music is an extraordinarily rudimentary approach to the previous paragraph. At worst, it doesn't come close to the complexity and effort involved in recording CD audio.

There also isn't much happening on your SNES that could be considered real-time -- at least, not when compared to redbook. With each, at the end of the day you have a device that is converting instructions into audio; your SNES is acting as a player piano of sorts.

And as for pushing the limits, if you consider playing a synthesizer into a sequencer, quantizing, and then selecting what wavetable track to use in the SNES to be difficult ("hmm... shall I choose pizzicato strings or harp for this part?"), well...

allyourblood

05-20-2010, 03:46 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj29sqvKb6U :)

(It was an analogy, by the way.)

OH SNAP.

kupomogli

05-20-2010, 04:11 AM

So far we been hearing the music in comparisons, and the Megadrive coming out top 99% of the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugE5l01KG5s Sewer Surfin' Hyperstone Heist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWCQSXz6e-o Sewer Surfin' Turtles in Time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI7f5Wb2DAM Theme of Simon Belmont Bloodlines

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dauRYb9il8 Theme of Simon Belmont SCV4

There. The SNES tracks are much better than the Genesis ones. That's the first TMNT music song I found on Youtube but I'm sure the rest sound better also. Now it's about 50/50. :P Don't get me wrong though. Both of the Genesis tracks also sound good. All of Castlevania Bloodlines music sounds good and the Theme of Simon Belmont sounds amazing on both systems, but on SCV4 the music is much better.

tomaitheous

05-20-2010, 06:11 AM

Also keep in mind that TFIV isn't using samples for its drums, only FM.

I like TFIV compositions too, but the static-y-ness of the tracks annoy me. If it's supposed to be distortion (not just guitar), it doesn't come off very well.

The SNES can sample any synth sound of course, but it won't sound as good as the original source. Apart from the above posted Adventure Island, there are few SNES games with bass as good as most MD games. The filters on the SNES chip (which is removed or improved by most emulators) also removes some clarity from the sound.

Yeah, but that has nothing to do with bass on the SNES. It was a matter of choice for the SNES composers. Often times, the sound FX (explosions) carried more bass than music tracks did. Most Japanese composers didn't favor bass, and the majority of games from the era are from Japanese composers. Yuzo Koshiro seemed to be the except to the rule, at times.

As for orchestrated music on MD, these are the most impressive soundtracks I could think of:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9oippiC9tM&feature=related&fmt=18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOagvSmosBg&feature=related&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brUFB5z1i7E&feature=related&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT6pYvAkJcA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFMsrHCFXj0
Fan made, 6:50

Besides Sortie (which is a great composition, just not impressive), non of those tracks are impressive - let alone good. And I think geckoyamori's covers of the Super Metroid tracks don't do it justice.

Also, Sorties is "brass" and the others.. well.. don't even sound orchestral.

Maybe I'm weird, but I've never been a fan of redbook/digitized audio in video games. It seems like cheating to me.

I've seen a couple of other people say something similar. Cheating. Music is music, where it comes from for a game is irrelevant. Whether it's streaming from a CDDA track, packed PCM, or compiled music for a chip. The end result is the same, disregarding quality and range. There are plenty of CDDA tracks for PC-Engine CD games that totally fit the game. Not out of place or anything. I think it's funny to think of it as cheating. I mean, this isn't some chiptune contest... is it?

Icarus Moonsight

05-20-2010, 08:22 AM

Failing that, get a Yamaha DX21 and you'll be dangerously close.

I just got my Everdrive flash cart and I'm going to install the TFM module for it. So I'm already there as far as acquisition, all that remains is execution... I want something other than a VA7 Genny too, before I start laying any tracks. I'll go with getting sound off the Nomad's phone jack until I get a nice audio output Gen. And then reclaiming my mini-studio/board area (most difficult part I'm afraid).

Genesis Super Metroid... Wow. The pieces are even awesome(er) in FM. :D

PresidentLeever

05-20-2010, 09:34 AM

I like TFIV compositions too, but the static-y-ness of the tracks annoy me. If it's supposed to be distortion (not just guitar), it doesn't come off very well.

Yeah, but that has nothing to do with bass on the SNES. It was a matter of choice for the SNES composers. Often times, the sound FX (explosions) carried more bass than music tracks did. Most Japanese composers didn't favor bass, and the majority of games from the era are from Japanese composers. Yuzo Koshiro seemed to be the except to the rule, at times.

Besides Sortie (which is a great composition, just not impressive), non of those tracks are impressive - let alone good. And I think geckoyamori's covers of the Super Metroid tracks don't do it justice.

Also, Sorties is "brass" and the others.. well.. don't even sound orchestral.

Your comment on SNES bass is funny, the lack of bass in SNES games has nothing to do with bass on SNES? First, I don't see the point in talking about what the SNES or MD could potentially do but didn't in a thread like this, unless someone is coming to the conclusion that all MD/SNES music sucks just going by comparisons of ported games.
Second, there are enough comparisons here to hear the difference even when deep bass isn't favoured. I'm not saying deep bass equals a good bass instrument, that's something else entirely. But personally I think deeper bass helps almost any composition.

You're basically saying that you disagree with everything else, which is fine. But if you want to contribute at all to a worthwhile discussion then I suggest you come up with some proper examples and counter arguments.

fahlim003

05-20-2010, 10:11 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugE5l01KG5s Sewer Surfin' Hyperstone Heist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWCQSXz6e-o Sewer Surfin' Turtles in Time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI7f5Wb2DAM Theme of Simon Belmont Bloodlines

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dauRYb9il8 Theme of Simon Belmont SCV4

There. The SNES tracks are much better than the Genesis ones. That's the first TMNT music song I found on Youtube but I'm sure the rest sound better also. Now it's about 50/50. :P Don't get me wrong though. Both of the Genesis tracks also sound good. All of Castlevania Bloodlines music sounds good and the Theme of Simon Belmont sounds amazing on both systems, but on SCV4 the music is much better.

I would agree on the SNES Sewer Surfing being unquestionably a bit better but Simon's Theme on SNES, while I quite like it, sounds flat in comparison to Genesis (even though I prefer SNES over Genesis in this case). I'm not going to deny examples I haven't heard or have extensive prior knowledge on but I'd say the SNES lacks the 'omph' and fullness that you often hear on Genesis. The quality could argued isn't always there on Genesis (not composition but effort) but when it is it's quite good. I would agree with j_factor in that Genesis often has a different sound, not necessarily lesser than SNES.

PresidentLeever

05-20-2010, 10:18 AM

double post.

Icarus Moonsight

05-20-2010, 11:30 AM

I think the SNES Sewer Surfin' sounds more like a Casio Keyboard Demo Song... It has that rigid herky-jerky midi sound and feel (not to mention those super-cheese orchestral hits...), either that puts you out totally or you won't notice it.

Ze_ro

05-20-2010, 12:10 PM

So, several people mentioned Rock & Roll Racing... I just happened to be looking through The Guide the other day, and I noticed that even the Genesis version's entry (http://www.digitpress.com/DP/cmf/game.cmf?gameid=7450) claims the SNES version is superior.

I haven't played either version, so I have no idea... there's no mention of extra content there, so I'm guessing whoever wrote it just did a quick comparison and is basing their opinion on the graphics and sound.

--Zero

pepharytheworm

05-20-2010, 12:30 PM

So far we been hearing the music in comparisons, and the Megadrive coming out top 99% of the time.

Wait we had a vote and I missed it. You might want to change that "we" to an "I". There's no way it would be 99% there isn't even 100 songs posted of ports and you picked one snes game:confused:

So far this arguement has turned into a less is more vs. more is more.
On the genesis people are more impressed by what people could do with the limitations where as the SNES being closer to sounding real but not quite there. But since someone wants to make the redbook audio issue it could do what either one did if it was choosen. Thats why Turbo vs Genesis ports, Turbo/PCE aways wins.

Oldskool

05-20-2010, 02:08 PM

Oldskool

05-20-2010, 02:16 PM

The Genesis version sounds horrible and annoying. The SNES sounds great.

The Genesis version doesn't really exist. That was a fan made song. No way that a fan made song can sound anything as good as a Konami composed song.

pepharytheworm

05-20-2010, 02:37 PM

[QUOTE=Oldskool;1723534]As far as music is concerned, has everyone forgotten about Sega CD? If you all are going to talk about redbook audio, can't forget that. It was not just the Turbo CD that had redbook audio.

So although it is not fair, ultimately the Turbo CD and Sega CD has vast superior sound capabilities over the SNES. [QUOTE]

I am one of the few that really loves Sega CD. If it was on the Genesis and the Sega CD, I always got the Sega CD version. I only brought up redbook audio because another member did.

Rob2600

05-20-2010, 03:41 PM

As far as music is concerned, has everyone forgotten about Sega CD? If you all are going to talk about redbook audio, can't forget that. It was not just the Turbo CD that had redbook audio.

So although it is not fair, ultimately the Turbo CD and Sega CD has vast superior sound capabilities over the SNES.

Not exactly. Redbook audio might sound better (it's a real studio recording, after all), but it's not interactive. In Super Mario World, when the timer gets low, the music speeds up to stress the player out. In Yoshi's Island, when you touch a Fuzzy, the music gets warbled. On the N64, in Diddy Kong Racing and Banjo-Kazooie, different instruments fade in and out in real time depending on where the player goes. Redbook audio can't do that.

For something as interactive as a video game, I prefer interactive music, too. If I want to hear prerecorded music, I'll mute the game and play a CD of my choice.

I always thought the sports games were WAY better on the Genesis.

We've already been over this. EA was very lazy on the SNES. EA chose Genesis as its main platform and focused on that. Likewise, Konami, Square, and Enix chose the SNES as their main platform.

That's why I suggested we come up with a list of developers and which console they prefered: Genesis or SNES. That would be faster and make more sense than going game-by-game.

That was a fan made song. No way that a fan made song can sound anything as good as a Konami composed song.

So you agree the SNES version sounds better.

PresidentLeever

05-20-2010, 03:53 PM

So you agree the SNES version sounds better.

Although fan efforts can be great, that was done in the TFM tracker meaning it doesn't really count as a proper G/MD version. TFM emulates only the 6 FM channels, it has no DAC or PSG support.

Rob2600

05-20-2010, 03:58 PM

Although fan efforts can be great, that was done in the TFM tracker meaning it doesn't really count as a proper G/MD version. TFM emulates only the 6 FM channels, it has no DAC or PSG support.

So how does Konami's Castlevania: Bloodlines Genesis music compare to its Super Castlevania IV or Dracula X SNES music?

Kiddo

05-20-2010, 04:20 PM

On the note of CD audio, I think it'd probably be more fair to compare the Sega CD (an add-on with some music enhancement) to the capabilities of the Satellaview (an add-on with some music enhancement) than to the base console.

Of course, the Sega CD would still win, because it's basically the same quality audio but without the Satellaview's various necessities/restrictions (especially considering the service the Satellaview supplied for the games with enhanced audio have long expired.), but at least we wouldn't be comparing a prerecording to a chiptune.

tomaitheous

05-20-2010, 05:16 PM

Your comment on SNES bass is funny, the lack of bass in SNES games has nothing to do with bass on SNES? First, I don't see the point in talking about what the SNES or MD could potentially do but didn't in a thread like this, unless someone is coming to the conclusion that all MD/SNES music sucks just going by comparisons of ported games.

This is you original statement:

The SNES can sample any synth sound of course, but it won't sound as good as the original source. Apart from the above posted Adventure Island, there are few SNES games with bass as good as most MD games. The filters on the SNES chip (which is removed or improved by most emulators) also removes some clarity from the sound.

Bold is the premise, italic is the conclusion/result, underlined is another part confirming the result. All I did was correct your line of thinking/suggestion/theory. If that's not what you meant, then you should have worded it better.

Second, there are enough comparisons here to hear the difference even when deep bass isn't favoured. I'm not saying deep bass equals a good bass instrument, that's something else entirely. But personally I think deeper bass helps almost any composition.

I agree. It helps fill that bottom end. But that doesn't change the fact that it was (Japanese) musician dependent between the SNES and Genesis (and even other systems). It was there choice. And the fact that a game would have relatively mid-to-weak lower end in music, but heavy lower end for sound FX at the same time - affirms it (that, and I have experience with audio synthesis for such audio chips on a low level).

You're basically saying that you disagree with everything else, which is fine. But if you want to contribute at all to a worthwhile discussion then I suggest you come up with some proper examples and counter arguments.

I'm allowed to make an observation and comment, *without* posting a counter example? That's absurd. You posted examples of what you thought were impressive orchestral examples on the Genesis, I made the comment that they don't even sound "orchestral" and one was cleary just some brass instrumental parts. Simple as that.

Not exactly. Redbook audio might sound better (it's a real studio recording, after all), but it's not interactive. In Super Mario World, when the timer gets low, the music speeds up to stress the player out. In Yoshi's Island, when you touch a Fuzzy, the music gets warbled. On the N64, in Diddy Kong Racing and Banjo-Kazooie, different instruments fade in and out in real time depending on where the player goes. Redbook audio can't do that.

Then that just affirms that fact that CDDA isn't "cheating". It has some drawbacks, doesn't it? Although I agree that CDDA has no place in this discussion if we're talking about the merits of the chiptune compositions, system audio abilities, and the composers that did impressive stuff on them. If we're just about game music in general, then CDDA would be perfectly valid. But CDDA doesn't always guarantee a better sound track even if it's more capable (I've seen examples were chiptune renditions were better than the CDDA versions). So it's not an automatic win.

So how does Konami's Castlevania: Bloodlines Genesis music compare to its Super Castlevania IV or Dracula X SNES music?

Not even close. All but one song/composition for Bloodlines, are only average (technically sounding and composition wise). They don't suck, but they don't stand out, with the exception of the water stage level (the one where the water is rising and you have to make your way up the level). SCIV and DX have impressive sound tracks in comparison.

PresidentLeever

05-20-2010, 05:55 PM

So how does Konami's Castlevania: Bloodlines Genesis music compare to its Super Castlevania IV or Dracula X SNES music?

Composition wise I think Bloodlines is solid. Soundwise it's kinda lazy. The FM drums are crap, like someone hitting a wooden table and some kitchen tools, and some leads are too sharp and thin sounding. I don't think they ever used PSG (4 channels) for the music either, which would have given the songs more warmth and fullness. They still got some cool sounds out of the genny though, nice organs and distorted bass.

In SCIV, the upbeat songs could definitely have more 'oomph' to them, some have really weak drums and leads. Bloodlines has an edge in some ways as it sounds stronger and darker. It probably wouldn't come close replicating those tracks with an emphasis on strings though.

Dracula X has too much reverb for it's own good, and lacks bass in some tracks. Overall though it's pretty good for SNES, and sounds better than SCIV and Bloodlines.

Kiddo

05-20-2010, 06:25 PM

One thing to keep in mind is that the SNES Dracula X's music is based off the PC-Engine CD Dracula X's, and IMHO they both sound very similar to each other, with the preferences more or less being what kind of poppy sound samples you prefer (and, yeah, some of the PC Engine tracks are longer and such).

allyourblood

05-20-2010, 07:05 PM

I agree. It helps fill that bottom end. But that doesn't change the fact that it was (Japanese) musician dependent between the SNES and Genesis (and even other systems). It was there choice. And the fact that a game would have relatively mid-to-weak lower end in music, but heavy lower end for sound FX at the same time - affirms it (that, and I have experience with audio synthesis for such audio chips on a low level).

I think this argument is pretty flimsy, as a lot of the Genesis games with nice, well-represented low end were created by Japanese musicians. What, they just didn't like to produce decent bass on the SNES?

j_factor

05-20-2010, 10:06 PM

I think it's funny to think of it as cheating. I mean, this isn't some chiptune contest... is it?

Actually, this is a dick-waving contest. Watch yourself.

Rob2600

05-20-2010, 11:06 PM

I've seen a couple of other people say something similar. Cheating. Music is music, where it comes from for a game is irrelevant. Whether it's streaming from a CDDA track, packed PCM, or compiled music for a chip. The end result is the same, disregarding quality and range. There are plenty of CDDA tracks for PC-Engine CD games that totally fit the game. Not out of place or anything. I think it's funny to think of it as cheating. I mean, this isn't some chiptune contest... is it?

I have a weird psychological block because I can't enjoy the music in a video game unless it's being produced in real time by the console.

It's sort of like when I go to a fancy looking web site and realize the whole thing was built in Flash. Nothing is a separate element...it's all just part of the static Flash file. When I resize the browser, the text and images don't reflow. Of course, it takes talent to build a web site in Flash, but to me, I'm really impressed when a programmer can pull off something similarly fancy by adhering to web standards and using fluid HTML, CSS, PHP, etc. I'm old-fashioned that way.

I feel the same way about pre-rendered FMV in video games. I get no enjoyment from them and prefer real-time cinema scenes using the actual game engine. Again, it obviously takes talent to make FMV, but I'm more impressed by a developer who can pull off something similar using its own game engine.

I'm not saying prerecorded audio (or FMV) should be banned from video games, I'm just trying to explain the mindset I'm coming from. I know I'm in the minority.

Anyway, does anyone know which developers preferred the Genesis and which preferred the SNES? I'll get the list going:

Genesis:
EA
Technosoft
Virgin

SNES:
Argonaut
Capcom
Enix
Konami
Square

There must be other developers who preferred the Genesis and vice versa, but I'm not familiar enough to know who they are. Add them to the list!

pepharytheworm

05-20-2010, 11:16 PM

To have some more fun with this topic I am going to list 10 Genesis SNES ports and everyone say which you think has better better Gameplay/Controls, Sound/Music, and Graphics/Visuals. Then I will list 10 more. I am going to do this randomly so sorry if we have discussed some already.

1. Aerobiz

2. Battletoads & Double Dragon: The Ultimate Team

3. Aero the Acro-Bat

4. Pitfall: The Mayan Adventure

5. Fatal Fury 2

6. Cool Spot

7. Boogerman: A Pick and Flick Adventure

8. Zool

9. Joe & Mac: Caveman Ninja

10. Chuck Rock

All right now everyone chip in on what you think about each title.

pepharytheworm

05-20-2010, 11:24 PM

Anyway, does anyone know which developers preferred the Genesis and which preferred the SNES? I'll get the list going:

Genesis:
EA

SNES:
Arognaut
Enix
Konami
Square

Why list companies where they didn't release games on both platforms?

Rob2600

05-20-2010, 11:29 PM

Why list companies where they didn't release games on both platforms?

Because I think it's interesting to see which companies stuck with which console. Maybe we'll find out that more European developers preferred the Genesis, while more Japanese developers preferred the SNES. (I'm just using that as an example.)

PresidentLeever

05-21-2010, 12:33 AM

Capcom favoured SNES while Virgin (or Dave Perry at least) seemed biased towards MD. Technosoft obviously preferred MD.

I actually haven't played both versions extensively of any of the listed games, so I'll have to pass for now.

Viper187

05-21-2010, 12:05 PM

I'm really surprised that only a few people mentioned sports games. Sports games were, by far, the number 1 reason to own a Genesis back in the days. It was widely accepted that just about every sports game was far superior on the Genesis, even though the SNES version usually looked slightly better due to colour depth.

I guess no one really plays old sports games much these days... but here in Canada, people still argue over the merits of NHL 93 vs. NHL 95... and it's always the Genesis versions they're talking about.

--Zero

Well, I don't know about comparing the Genesis/SNES versions of those, but I still feel that Midway was the only company that knew how to make quality sports games. NBA Jam TE and NBA Hangtime were the best basketball games, and the only ones I can stomach to this day. I can't believe EA had to take over sports gaming and mostly ruin it.

Thinking about games there were different from SNES to Genesis, Power Rangers The Movie comes to mind. Same title, but I remember it being totally different between the two systems. I always liked the Genesis one.

p.s. I preferred the Mortal Kombat games on SNES because I had this crazy turbo controller that made Lui Kang bicycle kick non-stop. ;)

tomaitheous

05-21-2010, 06:51 PM

I feel the same way about pre-rendered FMV in video games. I get no enjoyment from them and prefer real-time cinema scenes using the actual game engine. Again, it obviously takes talent to make FMV, but I'm more impressed by a developer who can pull off something similar using its own game engine.

Yeah, I can definitely relate to that.

Somewhat on topic, IIRC Steve Snake (of the Genesis emulation fame) worked on NBA JAM for the Genesis (and some SNES titles too).

UnpluggedClone

05-23-2010, 03:13 AM

I think this argument is pretty flimsy, as a lot of the Genesis games with nice, well-represented low end were created by Japanese musicians. What, they just didn't like to produce decent bass on the SNES?

You're completely wrong and need to check your facts better.

Icarus Moonsight

05-23-2010, 08:18 AM

tomaitheous

05-23-2010, 01:19 PM

PC-ENGINE HELL

05-23-2010, 01:41 PM

I do got to say, in alot of ways I always felt like Konami gypped the Genesis on the games it released for the most part. Bloodlines and Rocket Knight were fantastic, but on average stuff like Hyperstone Heist, Sunset Riders, and TMNT Tournament Fighters were not up to snuff over all. I know people love Contra HC alot, but it doesn't hold a candle to Contra 3, and it went in a totally different direction then what the prior Contras had been. Its sad because they could have produced far better games then those, but just felt like they didn't always seem to take their Genesis products all that serious at times.

Arkhan

05-23-2010, 02:02 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6C6iHlBN_ZM

What probrem with bass?!

Sounds good to me. Maybe it isn't as thick and synthy as the FM basses... but if you had that kind of bass with nice, crisp, digital samples of strings and such, it wouldn't fit very well. It would be like New Order covering the bass for a symphonic orchestra. lol

To fix that, you'd have to sample in more synthy sounding stuff for it all to blend well..... and then you would be moving away from what the SNES is good at, which is high quality sampling that resembles real acoustic instruments as opposed to synthesized stuff.

FM and SNES sampling two very different and very good beasts.

Both systems do what they do perfectly... SNES doesn't get the thick, chuggy bass, and Genesis doesn't get the smooth, warm violin sounds. It happens.

That reminds me of a friend who bitched and moaned that an analog synth I sold him wouldn't sound like a grand piano.

I looked at him and said "Duh?".

:)

Though like I said, if you want to split hairs and be all technical... you COULD sample FM crap on the SNES and make it sound pretty synthofized....

and you could also make an entire CD soundtrack made of FM sounds as well...or SNES sounds. Whatever you want really! CD audio isn't going to be interactive of course, but you could do just about anything you want with CD audio lol. You could record touch tone phone tones and use a coffee can for a drum if you want...

So what really is better than what here? I think it's all good.

As for orchestral Genesis stuff.... these were the first two things to come to mind...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I30Zqtrl9S4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1MCLMRKklQ

They may not be OMGAWESOME to some people, but man, those marching drums in Shining Force, and the fluttering flute noises are superbly awesome.

and another not genesis, but still FM thing that is pretty wacky and orchestral:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAFjhHZ6E-o

I do got to say, in alot of ways I always felt like Konami gypped the Genesis on the games it released for the most part. Bloodlines and Rocket Knight were fantastic, but on average stuff like Hyperstone Heist, Sunset Riders, and TMNT Tournament Fighters were not up to snuff over all. I know people love Contra HC alot, but it doesn't hold a candle to Contra 3, and it went in a totally different direction then what the prior Contras had been. Its sad because they could have produced far better games then those, but just felt like they didn't always seem to take their Genesis products all that serious at times.

Yea. I wonder if nintendo was giving Konami some extra incentives to make sweetness there instead.

The only part of Contra HC that is better than Alien Wars is the character selection and custom weapons for each one.

Other then that, yeah... its like a watered down version of Alien Wars or something.

j_factor

05-23-2010, 03:53 PM

pepharytheworm

05-23-2010, 04:15 PM

Hard Corps is my favorite Contra game. What's better about Alien Wars? Hard Corps has better graphics, sound, controls, gameplay, bosses, and level design, IMO. I especially didn't like the overhead levels in Alien Wars, they were rather dull.

Alien Wars has better graphics, sound, controls, gameplay, bosses, and level design, IMO.;)

Arkhan

05-23-2010, 11:43 PM

Hard Corps is my favorite Contra game. What's better about Alien Wars? Hard Corps has better graphics, sound, controls, gameplay, bosses, and level design, IMO. I especially didn't like the overhead levels in Alien Wars, they were rather dull.

The graphics + sound comparison is up to opinion I think. :D

The controls are about the same in both. Neither suck. Its Konami. They don't do these things :D/

I like Alien Wars more because it is a continuation of what I expect from Contra: Red guy and Blue guy whoopin' ass. It's like a perfect enhancement to the NES game.

and the motorcycle+rocket missle pod level is my favorite :D. That level is awesome.

I like Hard Corps, but what really ruins it for me is that alot of the levels are "meh". Like the junkyard. I really don't care for that level at all. Other then that, the Cyberpunk setting, and actual story + talking is pretty nice. Plus, Sheena's lazer is the best weapon ever made in a game. lol

What would have been great is the character choices in HC combined with the levels from Alien Wars.

Rob2600

05-24-2010, 11:44 PM

the SNES sound system was gimped for bass, by the sound systems design.

Then how do you explain the music in Donkey Kong Country and Super Castlevania IV, to name two? At least on my sound system, those games have nice, strong low frequencies.

As for orchestral Genesis stuff....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1MCLMRKklQ

They may not be OMGAWESOME to some people, but man, those marching drums in Shining Force, and the fluttering flute noises are superbly awesome.

The compositions themselves are fine, but I hate the FM synth sound of the instruments in that video. That's exactly the kind of Genesis music I've been posting about that I can't stand. I'd much rather listen to SNES music any day. I've actually heard more pleasing-sounding synth tones coming from the NES and ColecoVision.

To my ears, NES music has a fuller, more enjoyable sound than that thin, irritating Genesis sound in Shining Force (and Altered Beast, Space Harrier II, Golden Axe, World Championship Soccer, etc.).

Baloo

05-25-2010, 12:33 AM

Yea. I wonder if nintendo was giving Konami some extra incentives to make sweetness there instead.

Actually, in a sense Nintendo was doing this to fight against the Genesis. Nintendo held exclusivity rights to both TMNT: Turtles in Time and Street Fighter II, two of the biggest arcade games of that generation. (And possibly others as well?) Hence why TMNT: Hyperstone Heist isn't a port of Turtles in Time, rather a completely different game. And why Capcom had to wait (Or find the loophole in the contract, whatever they did) to release SF II on the Genesis,

And truth be told, the graphics and gameplay of Hyperstone Heist is much better compared to Turtles in Time. It's a shame the level design of Hyperstone Heist was so blah for the most part.

j_factor

05-25-2010, 12:57 AM

The graphics + sound comparison is up to opinion I think. :D

I guess, but Contra III looks and sounds relatively "basic" compared to the flashy stuff going on in Hard Corps. Hard Corps did come later, so I don't really fault Alien Wars for it. Alien Wars also has some nasty slowdown in places, which Hard Corps is pretty much free of.

The controls are about the same in both. Neither suck. Its Konami. They don't do these things :D/

Alien Wars lacks the slide maneuver. :p

I like Alien Wars more because it is a continuation of what I expect from Contra: Red guy and Blue guy whoopin' ass. It's like a perfect enhancement to the NES game.

So would you like Hard Corps more if it didn't have the word "Contra" in the title?

I like Hard Corps, but what really ruins it for me is that alot of the levels are "meh".

Heh, that's the exact complaint I have about Alien Wars. The second level in particular is just boring IMO.

Like the junkyard. I really don't care for that level at all. Other then that, the Cyberpunk setting, and actual story + talking is pretty nice. Plus, Sheena's lazer is the best weapon ever made in a game. lol

I thought that level was alright. I dug the "VR" boss fight at the end. Not my favorite level in the game though.

Ed Oscuro

05-25-2010, 01:06 AM

Huh? Ok, I'll bite. SNES bass is hurt by it's filter process... It affects not just one source, but the entire lowband frequency output. Bass is basically EQ'd down in db, reducing it's presence in the mix or producing odd volume/clipping variances when measures are taken in attempt to make the lowband more prominent. Fact.

It's not a matter of choice, the SNES sound system was gimped for bass, by the sound systems design. Unintentional as it might have been. But IDK, I haven't exactly asked Kutaragi himself about WTF he was thinking either... Wavetable synthesis was a big deal back then, but it's got barely any love/following today.
There are times when you could think to yourself "boy, what I wouldn't be able to do with this post...sometime when I'm writing about something I talk about." Writing crazy stuff isn't going to get you that hot journo position that'll let you ask Kutaragi "WTF he was thinking" when he designed one of the best sound subsystems in a game console ever.

I've been beaten to it - Super Castlevania IV came immediately to mind.

It's been a little while since I glanced at some SPC700 references (the Alpha-II ones actually) and yeah..nothing there about filters that I remember.

The secret (such that there is one) of the SNES sound hardware is...well, it's complicated. The ability to run code at the developer's whims was a big part of its success; they just programed something to run a file, MIDI or whatever format they liked; it could be an Amiga tracker style thing (Wolf Child seems to me an example of this) or it could be quasi-chiptune, or it could use samples heavily as Super Castlevania IV did (not to say the others don't). So if somebody doesn't know how to use bass, or the musician's tracker setup doesn't produce good bass, that gets sent right over and the 8-bitter faithfully duplicates that unconvincing bass when playing the song format sent over by the SPC700. You can set up wavetables, kind of, I guess, on the SNES, but I don't think there are fixed ones. You simply load in a program and whoo off it goes! It gets sent over to the sound chip with the schedule of notes and the rest.

I don't get the "Bass is basically EQ'd down in db" line. I had to think for a moment to remember that you didn't mean Dairy Queen (some kind of Process I think) but decibels (which is what EQ would do, which seems a redundant thing to say, to me). Could you be judging the SNES by an emulator or television speakers going bad or something?

The Genesis did fairly well because the main portion was an off-the-shelf synth chip that was designed to be an all-in-one. Many folks knew the series from programming arcade chips or from using Yamaha synthesizers. You could do great things with it, but only within an envelope. Unless some game loaded in some custom samples (I thought those were saved for sound effects mainly) you were stuck with the on-chip samples.

Ed Oscuro

05-25-2010, 01:09 AM

I especially didn't like the overhead levels in Alien Wars, they were rather dull.
Konami always had that problem in the classic Contra games. Strange, too, since Jackal was great.

Icarus Moonsight

05-25-2010, 08:39 AM

Thank you for having a fair enough disposition to not only challenging my post, but also extending a correction along with it. I can work with that. :)

You are completely right here: "EQ'd down" was sufficient.

I think it might have been lost, but the context I'm mainly concerned about is my use of the sound hardware for my own purposes. I love the STs for CV4, ActRaiser 1/2 and many others. It was my understanding that the SPC700 and the DSP co-pro used a low-pass filter to affect, in some form (shorthand for IDK how exactly), of anti-aliasing (an attempt to smooth quantization more fully). All I know is I have heard very faint bass (in quality more times than simply volume) or clipping/distortion - almost tearing in the worst cases, when low freq sounds are put out at the same level as the mid and high range. Am I wrong about the cause of what I hear? You seem to think so. Do you have a better explanation for it? I'm a big boy, I can take it. LOL

About emulators... I've heard that some emulators run the sound with the low-pass filter process bypassed or totally omitted as an improvement. I've heard both sides (+/-) of that though, not sure since I don't deal much with emulators. I am talking about the actual hardware though.

There are times when you could think to yourself "boy, what I wouldn't be able to do with this post...sometime when I'm writing about something I talk about." Writing crazy stuff isn't going to get you that hot journo position that'll let you ask Kutaragi "WTF he was thinking" when he designed one of the best sound subsystems in a game console ever.

I've been beaten to it - Super Castlevania IV came immediately to mind.

It's been a little while since I glanced at some SPC700 references (the Alpha-II ones actually) and yeah..nothing there about filters that I remember.

The secret (such that there is one) of the SNES sound hardware is...well, it's complicated. The ability to run code at the developer's whims was a big part of its success; they just programed something to run a file, MIDI or whatever format they liked; it could be an Amiga tracker style thing (Wolf Child seems to me an example of this) or it could be quasi-chiptune, or it could use samples heavily as Super Castlevania IV did (not to say the others don't). So if somebody doesn't know how to use bass, or the musician's tracker setup doesn't produce good bass, that gets sent right over and the 8-bitter faithfully duplicates that unconvincing bass when playing the song format sent over by the SPC700. You can set up wavetables, kind of, I guess, on the SNES, but I don't think there are fixed ones. You simply load in a program and whoo off it goes! It gets sent over to the sound chip with the schedule of notes and the rest.

I don't get the "Bass is basically EQ'd down in db" line. I had to think for a moment to remember that you didn't mean Dairy Queen (some kind of Process I think) but decibels (which is what EQ would do, which seems a redundant thing to say, to me). Could you be judging the SNES by an emulator or television speakers going bad or something?

The Genesis did fairly well because the main portion was an off-the-shelf synth chip that was designed to be an all-in-one. Many folks knew the series from programming arcade chips or from using Yamaha synthesizers. You could do great things with it, but only within an envelope. Unless some game loaded in some custom samples (I thought those were saved for sound effects mainly) you were stuck with the on-chip samples.

Arkhan

05-25-2010, 11:33 AM

Alien Wars lacks the slide maneuver. :p

Yeah, but so did the NES contra, lol.

So would you like Hard Corps more if it didn't have the word "Contra" in the title?

I actually went back and played the game again yesterday. Now the only thing I don't like about the game is that they didn't make a sequel, lol.

HARD CORPS FTW :rocker::rocker::rocker::rocker:

Rob2600

05-25-2010, 01:28 PM

It was my understanding that the SPC700 and the DSP co-pro used a low-pass filter... All I know is I have heard very faint bass

A low pass filter cuts high frequencies and allows low frequencies to pass through. A low pass filter does not cut low frequencies.

Ed Oscuro

05-25-2010, 01:45 PM

A low pass filter cuts high frequencies and allows low frequencies to pass through. A low pass filter does not cut low frequencies.
So he meant a high-pass filter.

In any case I don't think that's a cause for poor bass on the SNES...I think the major factor was still the compositions being fed to the thing.

And if you ask me, really "throaty" (echo applied mainly, but think of trumpets in Zelda or something similar, there's some good low end there) sounds on the SNES were pretty common. I'm just not hearing the low-end weakening. Distorted-seeming sounds, sure (all across the range though).

I also see I was wrong and that there are three ICs in the sound subsystem (Wiki claims only two but they seem to have everything confused; I see S-SMP and S-DSP ICs separately) - SPC700 8-bitter for handling the sound program, the S-SMP (stores sound samples, not sure what else), and the S-DSP for generating the sound (eight voices).

tomaitheous

05-25-2010, 01:52 PM

You are completely right here: "EQ'd down" was sufficient.

If anything is "EQ'd down" (which is incorrect), it would be the treble - not the bass and low end frequencies. And the filtering done on the DSP for the sample streams, if anything, would increase the frequencies on the low end relative to the higher frequencies (it's a matter of perspective).

Bass itself is easy to replicate on the SPC700 unit. Hell, even the PC-Engine can do some loud/thick bass (I've done it), which the SNES has no problem replicating and even making it *more* thick because of the filtering. Sample based synthesis isn't that hard to understand, let alone frequencies and waveform shapes, relative to the frequency band. Why someone would think gaussian filtering "removes" bass, is beyond me.

About emulators... I've heard that some emulators run the sound with the low-pass filter process bypassed or totally omitted as an improvement. I've heard both sides (+/-) of that though, not sure since I don't deal much with emulators. I am talking about the actual hardware though.

It's not just the filters, but some emulators use a higher "base" frequency point for the phase accumulation. The DPS in the SPC700 unit is limited to 32khz, filters or not. There is a main filter that's always on (you need this for phase accumulation VS something like period base divider or higher clocked source for phase accumulation), but there is also selectable (controllable) filtering options per blocked in the BBR compression scheme, on top of the original (which could be used to cut the noise/treble/artifacts and increase the smoothness of the sample, giving more lower end boost - relative to without). An emulation author change chose whatever method of filtering they want (something a little more clear/better than gaussian or something lighter). And Rob2600 said, a low-pass filter is just that. It allows frequencies below a certain band to pass through. The high you set the bar, the more of the higher frequencies pass through. A band pass specifically sets a high and low point passing area, and just a high pass filters out lower frequencies.

Ed Oscuro

05-25-2010, 01:59 PM

tomaitheous

05-25-2010, 02:56 PM

I see we finally managed to drag you into this, tomaitheous :D

Could you illuminate the situation on the sound CPU and the co-processors for me? Basically looking to understand (at least generally) what each one does by itself. I don't know if the split between the S-SMP and S-DSP is basically invisible when programming the SPC 700, but if anybody here would know...

Well, the DSP is the actual sound unit (which is basically the same unit in the PlayStation which has a higher number of channels and a larger address range for samples). The S-SMP is the processor. The unit is supposed to be self contained. I.e. it doesn't need an external processor to run whatever synth engine you write for it (supposedly sony was going to use a version of this system in some standalone units. But like anything you read on the internet, it's hard to say how true that is).

Anyway, the DSP is mapped to the S-SMP/processor address ranges via I/O registers (though memory mapped like typical 6502 stuff). The processor itself is pretty much a 6502 variant (with a different assembler syntax) crossed with features of a 6809 (register pairing, mul, etc). The S-SMP is the only processor that can access the DSP directly on the SNES, the processor itself is just that, a processor. You create whatever driver you want for the music engine and upload it into SPC ram. There's an initial small boot loader rom that first starts when you turn on the system and has protocol for uploading data from the I/O ports between the S-SMP and the sCPU and a jump to address/vector operation.

So when you upload your own code, you define whatever protocol you want to communicate between the sCPU and the S-SMP, including streaming of long samples from the sCPU to the SPC700 unit or dynamically replacing "instruments".

The DSP itself has hardware envelopes and such. So the S-SMP doesn't have to take care of that in software (like you do on the NES, PCE, Amiga, etc). The DSP also does the frequency scaling via phase accumulation. It handles the volume, echo, noise generation, and such also. Everything is done on a digital level and combined all channels with an ADDER logic before being sent to the DAC. It does have 2 channel FM mode(s), but they are useless IMO considering what you can do with a single channel via normal sample based synth. The sample compression scheme has a few more control bytes than plain ADPCM, so the sample compression isn't 1/4 that of 16bit samples. It's 9/32 the size (4.5bits per sample). So the limited 64k of ram is larger in reality for sample storage (almost double). There's also loop points in the BBR control codes of the sample, which is nice for instrument construction and save some space for long sounding/playing instruments. But forward looping only AFAIK (for anyone familiar with MOD/XM sample based tracker stuff).

The S-SMP has its own set of timers for sync the main music driver too, for instrument FX and such or just fine resolution note timing (like 120hz or 240hz ticks, etc). And since the S-SMP has direct access to sample ram (and the buffer that the S-DSP uses for echo), it's possible to create sounds/samples on the fly. I've read a few games do this, but to what extent - I dunno.

So, in application it's not really much different than a z80+FM or a main cpu+sound chip, music driver. You can do software driven effects like frequency envelopes and such, just like you would on a normal sound engine. It's just that the main cpu doesn't have direct access to the memory inside the audio unit - like the PSX setup does.

I hope that helps >_>. I'm not a SPC700 guru, so there might be some additional stuff you can do on the unit (exploits and whatnot).

Icarus Moonsight

05-25-2010, 02:58 PM

So an analog to what is actually occurring (paraphrasing for my understanding - likened to a studio set-up rather than "in the chips") is a filter is in place, sort of acting as a compressor? so I'd guess the result of what I am hearing is because there is no noise gate to manage/negate the 'compression' enhancing artifacts and noise along with the intended signals? Is that anywhere near an explanation of what I have heard? Or is it merely in the compositions themselves and hardware has nothing to do with it?

I'm thinking I could have the SNES handle drums and sampling and let the Genny's FM take over for the rest. I'd have to find a different builder to utilize the PSG channel on the Genny because the one I'm looking at only handles FM channels, no PSG at all. Then again, the SNES would handle that better anyway. I'm still thinking I'd be easier and more effective to chiptune with the Genny's FM and back it as I normally would with the PC for everything else.

Rob2600

05-25-2010, 07:43 PM

The sample compression scheme has a few more control bytes than plain ADPCM, so the sample compression isn't 1/4 that of 16bit samples. It's 9/32 the size (4.5bits per sample). So the limited 64k of ram is larger in reality for sample storage (almost double). There's also loop points in the BBR control codes of the sample, which is nice for instrument construction and save some space for long sounding/playing instruments.

So an analog to what is actually occurring...is a filter is in place, sort of acting as a compressor? so I'd guess the result of what I am hearing is because there is no noise gate to manage/negate the 'compression' enhancing artifacts and noise along with the intended signals?

No. He meant data compression, not dynamic range compression. Don't confuse the two.