Special 7800 Proto Stolen At CGE - Help Please!, Halloween cart stolen from AA stand

[7th lutz]

I am very sad to report that the demo cart of the 7800 Halloween themed game made for CGE was stolen from the AA booth on Saturday afternoon so people attending on Sunday could not play the game. Some people are just scum, pure and simple and make our otherwise wonderful community look bad. The cart belonged to AA member Groovybee and was still a work in progress prototype.

There is every chance this might pop up on eBay or be offered to members on forums, it’s the only one of its kind and it’s got the AtariAge prototype/demo label on it so it’s a dead giveaway. It’s not even the full game. It has a tiny partial level, only one boss, no working inventory system, no sound etc. It was just a demo to show what will be available on the 7800 in the near future.

If the person who has stolen this and wants to do the right thing and return it and is reading this Chickybaby will still be at the hotel until tomorrow August 3rd, so leave the cart at reception marked for her. If any members reading this know who has it then I urge you to tell them to return it by simply sending it to Albert @ AtariAge.

[TonyTheTiger]

What a punk. Hopefully they'll take the opportunity to return it anonymously no questions asked.

[JSoup]

In Before Jackass Dumps A ROM

[BetaWolf47]

Return it anonymously? I think you've got too much faith in this person.

[HurricaneAndrew]

What kind of dickhead steals an unfinished game? Seriously...

[Kyle15]

I hope you get the prototype back or find the thief. It may take a while, but it doesn't hurt to try.

[Greg2600]

What kind of dickhead steals an unfinished game? Seriously...
Really, it's essentially useless considering the author is going to be selling finished copies.

[BetaWolf47]

Really, it's essentially useless considering the author is going to be selling finished copies.

That logic goes for any proto that has a full game released, period.

[HurricaneAndrew]

I mean... If it was the prototype of an official game, then sure, it is going to be desirable. But this was a prototype of a homebrew, from what I understand. That's what makes no sense to me.

[Tupin]

Sad. I've not heard of this game, do you have a link to information?

[7th lutz]

Sad. I've not heard of this game, do you have a link to information?

Here are two threads for information about the game.

Halloween CGE demo page: http://www.atariage.com/features/shows/cge2010_preview/demos.html#halloween

Halloween development thread: http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/152901-7800-happy-halloween

[Oldskool]

I mean... If it was the prototype of an official game, then sure, it is going to be desirable. But this was a prototype of a homebrew, from what I understand. That's what makes no sense to me.

The fact that it was stolen is all that matters here.

[Tupin]

Here are two threads for information about the game.

Halloween CGE demo page: http://www.atariage.com/features/shows/cge2010_preview/demos.html#halloween

Halloween development thread: http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/152901-7800-happy-halloween

Wow. The game looks awesome. So do the rest on the page. Too bad the AtariAge store is on vacation, I want to get some homebrews.

[JSoup]

The fact that it was stolen is all that matters here.

Not to be a dick, but why does it matter at all? A barely playable version of a homebrew game was stolen, oh no! Now the author will have to finish the game like he was going to do anyway!

[ZombieK]

What kind of dickhead steals an unfinished game? Seriously...
Damn Thieves its because of stuff like this that I am so ocd about all my shit and always double check myself when I leave anywhere.
Kinda turned me into a paranoid fucker when people stole all the stuff out of my house.

What dicks ruining the fun for everyone else. Just for something that won't be worth anything. Also is there Anyway someone thought it was a "rare" proto and snatched it for that reason?

[G-Boobie]

Not to be a dick, but why does it matter at all? A barely playable version of a homebrew game was stolen, oh no! Now the author will have to finish the game like he was going to do anyway!

It matters for a couple reasons. First, no one was able to play the game on the second day. That could hurt sales, and it has to be disappointing for the creator that other people weren't able to sample his handiwork. Second, theft is fucking theft, you asshole. Someone's property was taken from them. Actual value doesn't matter.

[Policenaut]

It saddens me to read that some stupid jerk had the audacity to steal a one-of-a-kind proto like that.

[Oldskool]

Not to be a dick, but why does it matter at all? A barely playable version of a homebrew game was stolen, oh no! Now the author will have to finish the game like he was going to do anyway!

I guess you don't understand my point. The fact is that it was stolen, someone STOLE it. So are you basically saying it's ok to steal a piece of candy from the store because it's only worth 1 cent to them? Stealing is stealing, and it's wrong. I understand what you guys are saying - I know it will still be finished. But that's besides the point.

[JSoup]

Second, theft is fucking theft, you asshole. Someone's property was taken from them. Actual value doesn't matter.

Actual value doesn't matter. It's like we don't live in America.

[dendawg]

You're right...actual value doesn't matter. All that does and should matter is that it was stolen. What part of "stolen" don't you understand??

[Greg2600]

Could have been the janitor or a non-attendee? Probably turn up on Pawn Stars. Pretty disgraceful if it was an attendee, spoils the whole point of the expo.

[G-Boobie]

Actual value doesn't matter. It's like we don't live in America.

I reiterate: theft is theft. If you can't figure out that basic concept, and judging by the coherence of your riposte it might be a struggle for you, then kindly refrain from posting gibberish in a thread such as this.

Someone had something they worked hard on stolen from them, and as a result, they weren't able to let other people experience it. This is a bad, bad thing. What the hell is wrong with you?

[Matt-El]

I have to agree here.

Property is property.

It really screwed over the maker of the game.

It was the creators property for use at the show.

The creator did not make it for someone else to steal.

Does it still matter now that the show is done? YES.

[buzz_n64]

Yeah, one or a few bad apples ruin it for the rest of us. I like the honor system, but it doesn't work in reality like in this example. I think I've also noticed the game selection in the console gaming section being depleted, not sure if it was because of people stealing the games, or because the owner took it away for their own reasons.

Just because this is a prototype doesn't make it less valuable, in my view, makes it more valuable, and if this guy/gal doesn't turn the game over, I hope they get caught, but chances are they'll store it away and we'll never see it again. :(

[nhm]

Not to be a dick, but why does it matter at all? A barely playable version of a homebrew game was stolen, oh no! Now the author will have to finish the game like he was going to do anyway!

Spoken like a true theif. I'm not joking, your mentality is the exact same as a petty thief.

[Oldskool]

Yeah, one or a few bad apples ruin it for the rest of us. I like the honor system, but it doesn't work in reality like in this example. I think I've also noticed the game selection in the console gaming section being depleted, not sure if it was because of people stealing the games, or because the owner took it away for their own reasons.

Just because this is a prototype doesn't make it less valuable, in my view, makes it more valuable, and if this guy/gal doesn't turn the game over, I hope they get caught, but chances are they'll store it away and we'll never see it again. :(

That was because when I was not able to monitor over the game stations I would take all of my personal games out of there except maybe one per console, and I would put them away somewhere safe. The few that were left over have been around for years for game station duty so if one of those came up missing it would have not been such a loss to anyone personally.

Also, I was hiding some of the games behind the TVs so that they were out of sight, out of mind.

There were times I left my games out and was walking around the show, but nothing ever came up missing. I guess the one thief that was there must have just been eye balling that proto. I think 99.99999 percent of the people there were honest and would have never stolen anything even if they had the opportunity.

I purposely didn't bring any of my more rare and sought after games for game station duty. I just picked out games that people could play real quick and put down, that were somewhat common and not worth too much. I think the most expensive game I had out was probably Splatterhouse for the TG-16. Also, I tried to bring as many burns as possible for the CD based consoles.

[Oldskool]

Spoken like a true theif. I'm not joking, your mentality is the exact same as a petty thief.

Yeah I kind of wonder if maybe he's the one that stole the game.

[G-Boobie]

Thief or not, I call douche bag.

I hope it turns up, Oldskool. I'm sorry this happened.

[GroovyBee]

Don't worry, the theft isn't going to stop me from completing the game or showing other game demos at shows. The fact that Atari 7800 fans couldn't play the game on Sunday is what most annoys me about the theft.

Find attached an image of the cart just in case its ever seen again. Its is quite distinctive. Could a mod add it to the first post in the thread if possible.

[GarrettCRW]

Don't worry, the theft isn't going to stop me from completing the game or showing other game demos at shows. The fact that Atari 7800 fans couldn't play the game on Sunday is what most annoys me about the theft.

Yeah, same here, as it wasn't until Sunday that I actually gave the demos at the AA booth a good once over.

[ClubGhost]

That really sucks. Especially because it's not really something you think would ever get stolen. I mean it's not like he could sell it for very much, not much of a market for black market home brew carts. ^^;

[portnoyd]

Of all the things to steal? You gotta figure the culprit is on a short list if he cares enough to swipe a 7800 dev copy.

[zektor]

I read about this first over at AA. What a crappy thing for someone to do. The person has to know that he or she will never be able to sell it. All they accomplished is the hurting of the exposure to an upcoming game and the dispicable act of theft.

[RASK1904]

I read All they accomplished is the hurting of the exposure to an upcoming game

I don't know about that. I didn't even know they where doing a Halloween for the 7800 before it got stollen. Now there are threads everywhere about it and everyones all worked up. Now they should sell a ton.

I can see it now. "The game thats so good, someone stole it!"

Messin with my games is like messin with my emotions.

[GroovyBee]

I don't know about that. I didn't even know they where doing a Halloween for the 7800 before it got stollen. Now there are threads everywhere about it and everyones all worked up. Now they should sell a ton.

The game has nothing to do with the film and its not a remake of the 2600 game either. Halloween is just its working title too.

[Oldskool]

Thief or not, I call douche bag.

I hope it turns up, Oldskool. I'm sorry this happened.

Oh, it wasn't my proto. I was lucky, nothing of mine got stolen.

[Oldskool]

Maybe because of what happened, the programmers should add in a zombie thief holding a proto cart. You have to blow his head off, and he splatters all over the wall Splatterhouse style.

[jb143]

The game has nothing to do with the film and its not a remake of the 2600 game either. Halloween is just its working title too.

I think his point was that any publicity is good publicity. It's a shame that some idiot stole this but at least some good seems to be comming from it...exposure.

[Flack]

Find attached an image of the cart just in case its ever seen again. Its is quite distinctive. Could a mod add it to the first post in the thread if possible.

Added to original post.

[megamaniaman]

I am wondering if the game was actually stolen. Could it have been accidentally sold to someone? It looks just like the other Homebrews. It is just hard for me to wrap my head around the concept that someone would steal this of all things. I mean there were certain items at this show that were 20 times as valuable as this game. Actual prototypes of NES, Atari 2600 were floating around, but the thief goes, and steals a proto of a homebrew. It just doesn't add up. I have a feeling that this will turn up sooner or later.

[portnoyd]

My guess would be 15 year old vegas punk stops in the show and pulls a klepto. He has no idea what it is or why but he was looking for something to steal.

[GroovyBee]

Added to original post.

Thanks for that :).

[GroovyBee]

I am wondering if the game was actually stolen. Could it have been accidentally sold to someone?


If you look at the cart image it says "WORK IN PROGRESS" and "AtariAge" on the front label so I don't think that there would be any chance it could have been sold. It was also located in a machine to be played by attendees.



It looks just like the other Homebrews.


It doesn't look like a normal 7800/2600 homebrew cart to me.



It is just hard for me to wrap my head around the concept that someone would steal this of all things. I mean there were certain items at this show that were 20 times as valuable as this game. Actual prototypes of NES, Atari 2600 were floating around, but the thief goes, and steals a proto of a homebrew. It just doesn't add up.


Tell me about it.



I have a feeling that this will turn up sooner or later.


Personally, I don't think it'll turn up. Gone for good I expect.

[Leo_A]

Spoken like a true theif. I'm not joking, your mentality is the exact same as a petty thief.

His attitude shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that has read past postings from him.

[Mayhem]

Sorry to hear that Groovy. I had a chance to play it on the Saturday, and like the others, it's progressing well. The only upside is that it wasn't something a lot more valuable...

[Hari Seldon]

This sucks, not only because something was stolen but it will make people more distrustful in the future.

[SegaAges]

I was there on Saturday and Sunday. Honestly, the AA booth was packed Saturday so I did not have a chance to play any of the 2600 games (I don't own anything higher than that). With how many people were walking around that booth, unfortunately, it could have been anybody.

I seriously did not even get to play anything in the AA booth until Sunday since it was so packed on Saturday.

Somebody also mentioned that it looked like the other homebrews. I actually purchased a copy of Halo 2600 and it had a badass legit looking front and spine label.

As for it being a non attendee, I do not see how that is possible, as security was keeping a close eye on the museum and security was also checking badges on the way in the door.

The thing I can see that sucks really bad about this is the fact that I loved the honor system. Being there, that was one of the reasons why I want to go to every single CGE after this one. It just felt like a bunch of gamers hanging out, playing some games, maybe selling off what they have.

Now if thieves are running around, that honor system will go away, which seriously sucks bad.

[Flack]

I am wondering if the game was actually stolen. Could it have been accidentally sold to someone? It looks just like the other Homebrews. It is just hard for me to wrap my head around the concept that someone would steal this of all things. I mean there were certain items at this show that were 20 times as valuable as this game. Actual prototypes of NES, Atari 2600 were floating around, but the thief goes, and steals a proto of a homebrew. It just doesn't add up. I have a feeling that this will turn up sooner or later.

Sometimes, these things are a crime of opportunity. At one game show I was displaying at, someone stole my Xbox copy of Star Wars Clone Wars / Tetris disc. It's the pack in game that came with my Xbox. That's like stealing a friggin' Combat cart. Unfortunately, I left my table unguarded for just a minute and learned a (fortunately inexpensive) lesson.

[emceelokey]

I don't know about that. I didn't even know they where doing a Halloween for the 7800 before it got stollen. Now there are threads everywhere about it and everyones all worked up. Now they should sell a ton.

I can see it now. "The game thats so good, someone stole it!"

Messin with my games is like messin with my emotions.


I didn't even know the convention was going on and I live in Vegas! I though it was going to happen in late August.

Had a feeling that convention was going to be full of thugs. Better off going to the Source Awards.

I say, this is the best thing to happen to everyone involved.

[GarrettCRW]

I didn't even know the convention was going on and I live in Vegas! I though it was going to happen in late August.

Had a feeling that convention was going to be full of thugs. Better off going to the Source Awards.

I say, this is the best thing to happen to everyone involved.

Yeah, we missed you too, Cuddles.

[Oldskool]

Suddenly all of us Las Vegans come out of the wood works.. or the high desert I should say.

[zektor]

I don't know about that. I didn't even know they where doing a Halloween for the 7800 before it got stollen. Now there are threads everywhere about it and everyones all worked up. Now they should sell a ton.

I can see it now. "The game thats so good, someone stole it!"

Messin with my games is like messin with my emotions.

Well, I meant the extra exposure of Sunday...but you might be right for all around exposure ;) I'll buy the game when released, that is for sure.

[Oldskool]

If I had a 7800 I'd be on it, looks cool! But I don't. :(

[tubeway]

I bet a month from now the cart will be found lodged inside of a toaster NES or something in the exhibitor's stock. ;)

[CMA Death Adder]

Sadly, the best defense is to keep your guard up at all times. You never can be too careful.

When we demonstrated Beggar Prince (http://www.beggarprince.com/) to the world for the first time at CGE 2k5 (http://www.superfighter.com/events/cge2005.htm), I kept personal watch over the prototype game cartridge at all times, even though it was inserted in a Genesis system that was seated behind the booth tables.

Likewise, when we visited France for the 2007 Retro-gaming Connexion (http://www.superfighter.com/events/rgc2007.htm), the early Zaku prototype was always being closely watched by either myself or my good friend Kenny. Since the event ran all night long, I took the prototype with me to the hotel when our group retired for the night.

The problem with prototypes of any kind is... they're prototypes. People desire to have them, plain and simple. It's irrelevant if the game is in a very early state, or if its near-complete. We've been mobbed by people at conventions, at times, just inquiring about purchasing our prototype game boards (which of course is out of the question), so obviously we must, unfortunately, consider the possibility that there are also people out there who would simply walk up and take them, given the chance. It's a sad world.

[Compute]

I am sorry to hear about your cart being stolen, assholes don't understand that if people fear for their stuff being stolen, they won't show it.

Has anyone resorted to selling "prototype" copies of games they are releasing? If collectors are so hot to get any proto, why not make a production run of 'proto' carts. Then nail em again for the full version. :rocker:

[Icarus Moonsight]

Theft is fucking theft, you asshole.

Love the sentiment. LOL

Your argument from sanity is much too sound to waste on that guy though. What Leo said, take that into account. It takes a lot to truly disgust me, and one series of posts he made some time ago DQ'd any weight I give to his views on any ethical ground. Either he's 100% pure bastard or he gets jollies from jabbing sticks into "moral" beehives with these types of posts. Either way, it yields nothing of value to reply to him.

My thoughts: Take that quote from G-Boobie and a pic of the stolen cart and make some T-shirts and/or badges for the con.

[megasdkirby]

Love the sentiment. LOL

Your argument from sanity is much too sound to waste on that guy though. What Leo said, take that into account. It takes a lot to truly disgust me, and one series of posts he made some time ago DQ'd any weight I give to his views on any ethical ground. Either he's 100% pure bastard or he gets jollies from jabbing sticks into "moral" beehives with these types of posts. Either way, it yields nothing of value to reply to him.

My thoughts: Take that quote from G-Boobie and a pic of the stolen cart and make some T-shirts and/or badges for the con.

No surprise really. It's obvious his actions (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1481375&postcount=48) are morally incorrect, yet he shows no remorse. Nor is he man enough to take responsibility (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1516076&postcount=68) of his actions. Karma will eventually get this him, though.

But going back to topic, things like this pisses me off. Someone works hard to create something to share with everyone, and a dick shit decides it's funny to steal it. If the culprit is ever found, someone should take an Atari cart, wrap it in sand paper, and shove it into the guys urethra.

I'm happy this has not stopped GroovyBee. I can't wait to see the game released, as it looks wicked awesome. :)

[Greg2600]

http://www.gamegavel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3213

Another booth had something taken, but they claim it was done by what sounds like a fairly mentally handicapped person. Who may well have taken the Halloween cart also. Me personally, I don't really view that as "theft" if the person doesn't have the capacity to make such rational judgments.

[megasdkirby]

http://www.gamegavel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3213

Another booth had something taken, but they claim it was done by what sounds like a fairly mentally handicapped person. Who may well have taken the Halloween cart also. Me personally, I don't really view that as "theft" if the person doesn't have the capacity to make such rational judgments.

I dunno man. Before the store that my brother worked in closed down, there was a mentally handicapped person working there that new how to manipulate the system to his accord. He would actually steal and when confronted, he used all the "tricks in the book" (laws on his side) to slide through. This went on for YEARS with several felonies: theft, violence, etc.

So it really depends if the person knew what they were doing. For me, it's a 50/50 chance.

[Icarus Moonsight]

So a brain damaged Kender can make it to CGE, but I can't... Thanks, I needed that. LOL

[AtariAge]

I am wondering if the game was actually stolen. Could it have been accidentally sold to someone? It looks just like the other Homebrews. It is just hard for me to wrap my head around the concept that someone would steal this of all things. I mean there were certain items at this show that were 20 times as valuable as this game. Actual prototypes of NES, Atari 2600 were floating around, but the thief goes, and steals a proto of a homebrew. It just doesn't add up. I have a feeling that this will turn up sooner or later.
No, the game was not accidentally sold. It did not look like any of the other homebrews, as it had a unique "Work in Progress" label that the other demo carts also featured. And it didn't turn up when we tore down the booth Sunday night, so it was definitely taken.

..Al

[AtariAge]

Sadly, the best defense is to keep your guard up at all times. You never can be too careful.

When we demonstrated Beggar Prince (http://www.beggarprince.com/) to the world for the first time at CGE 2k5 (http://www.superfighter.com/events/cge2005.htm), I kept personal watch over the prototype game cartridge at all times, even though it was inserted in a Genesis system that was seated behind the booth tables.
I've been vending at shows for nearly a decade now and this is the first time I've ever had a demo cartridge taken at my booth. Unless you just have a handful of game systems setup, it's tough to keep your eyes on them all the time. And with as many systems as we had setup at this year's show (15 or so), it's nigh impossible to do so. Especially with the 7800 (and a few other) systems, as they were facing away from where we were standing in the booth.

We are discussing methods to help safeguard against this in the future. It's unfortunate that we even need to do so.

..Al

[lkermel]

I am also sorry to hear about the game being stolen, it is also a blow to the community image. I love these conventions where I can talk about/play games with other fellow collectors, it's a shame that such distrustful event may end up tarnishing the image of such convention. Thieves suck.

[Peonpiate]

I've been vending at shows for nearly a decade now and this is the first time I've ever had a demo cartridge taken at my booth. Unless you just have a handful of game systems setup, it's tough to keep your eyes on them all the time. And with as many systems as we had setup at this year's show (15 or so), it's nigh impossible to do so. Especially with the 7800 (and a few other) systems, as they were facing away from where we were standing in the booth.

We are discussing methods to help safeguard against this in the future. It's unfortunate that we even need to do so.

..Al

If it were me I would bring a laptop next time, and wire up a few cheap webcams to it and set them to record. If anyone does steal and you dont notice it right away you can view the footage later...That doesnt guarantee you will find the person but it increases the chance of it greatly, vs having no footage and no clue as to where it went/who took it.

The cost at most, if you have a laptop is probably $20 total for a few webcames. Add in $20 for a decent size HD to record to.

[Daria]

If it were me I would bring a laptop next time, and wire up a few cheap webcams to it and set them to record. If anyone does steal and you dont notice it right away you can view the footage later...That doesnt guarantee you will find the person but it increases the chance of it greatly, vs having no footage and no clue as to where it went/who took it.

The cost at most, if you have a laptop is probably $20 total for a few webcames. Add in $20 for a decent size HD to record to.

Just be careful the thief doesn't try and take the laptop. Had that happen to me at work, was trying to film whoever was taking money from my office and filmed the asswipe stealing the whole damn laptop. Luckily he couldn't get it out of the office right away and he attempted to stash it for later pickup.

[rokubungi]

there's always the lexan lock box option..for $50 or so. until you need to use the switches on the console.

or actually putting a steel cable through the cartridge case itself http://www.digitpress.com/forum/images/smilies/shocked.gif

[danny_galaga]

http://www.gamegavel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3213

Another booth had something taken, but they claim it was done by what sounds like a fairly mentally handicapped person. Who may well have taken the Halloween cart also. Me personally, I don't really view that as "theft" if the person doesn't have the capacity to make such rational judgments.


I dunno man. Before the store that my brother worked in closed down, there was a mentally handicapped person working there that new how to manipulate the system to his accord. He would actually steal and when confronted, he used all the "tricks in the book" (laws on his side) to slide through. This went on for YEARS with several felonies: theft, violence, etc.

So it really depends if the person knew what they were doing. For me, it's a 50/50 chance.

O_O


I agree with some of the posts. It was probably a klepto with a moment of opportunity. They aren't thinking about if it's valuable or not (like that xbox pack in disk). If it can be lifted, it goes in their pocket. Could be a bar of chocolate, or a bar of gold...

I hope it gets returned somehow, even if by the time you next exhibit, you have updated the game. It's kinda nice to have all the stages of your work. Actually, its kinda nice to have all your stuff, whatever it is...

[Icarus Moonsight]

Or a bag of chocolate gold coins. That way you get a double dose of klepto-rush!

Chocolate money, the perfect bait for a woman trap. LOL

I have a bit of a "handling" issue myself. I constantly barrow a small useful object like a lighter or a pen (I have about a dozen bank pens in my car) and pocket it or just not give it back. It's not intentional that I take it, consciously. Sometimes I catch myself and other times I'm caught by the lender, but most the time I don't realize what happened until much latter.

[JSoup]

So.

Was the thing every recovered?

[GroovyBee]

Was the thing every recovered?

Not to my knowledge.

[Flack]

http://www.gamegavel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3213

Another booth had something taken, but they claim it was done by what sounds like a fairly mentally handicapped person. Who may well have taken the Halloween cart also. Me personally, I don't really view that as "theft" if the person doesn't have the capacity to make such rational judgments.

I didn't want to register just to post a response over there, but I met that guy at CGE2K7.

I forgot what his name was now, but we had a deaf member who was planning on being at CGE2K7. When I saw the guy mentioned above (who was also deaf), I went up to him and pointed at my name tag. He shrugged his shoulders and had no idea who I was, so I smiled and we parted ways. I don't know why I just assumed that there would only be one deaf person at CGE, that was kind of naive on my part. But anyway, yeah, that guy in the Game Gavel thread was at CGE2K7 for sure. I definitely remember walking up to him and having an exchange with him. Too weird.