Could CRTs ever be a niche boutique product of the future?

[BetaWolf47]

I think he was just making a joke. :)
Indeed so. Don't get so defensive, stargate :P


...LG CRT...
That just looks ugly to me. Then again, I was born in 1988. Maybe the black version of that will look better. I do like Engadget's picture of a Famicom connected to it though. I think that sums it up for us.
http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/25/lgs-classic-tv-gives-old-crt-new-legs/

[Leo_A]

This is completely unscientific, but I'm already noticing what I warned about several years ago. When this thread was new, I could log on to my local Craigslist and find no shortage of high quality Trinitrons and the like anytime of the year. Now, there's barely anything and what they do have for televisions seems to be older HDTV's that are being replaced or cheap 13"-20" CRT's from companies like Sanyo.

The high end CRT supply in my rural area seems to be drying up judging by watching Craigslist in recent weeks with most already having been replaced apparently by their more well to do owners. I thought now in the weeks after Black Friday sales and Christmas might be a good time to find a nice, cheap, late model CRT of high quality.

But the pickings have been pretty slim.

[mercuryshadow09]

It's still easy to find CRT televisions right now, and it will get slightly easier in Canada shortly as we're just switching over to digital broadcasting signals and plenty of people will be buying new TVs to have a working tuner.

If anything they should be making replacement vector monitors for arcade machines as those have been long out of production and plenty of people need new ones now to restore old arcade machines.

I find CRT's daily on Craigslist for free, I picked up a really nice Hitachi 32 inch yesterday somebody left on the curb!

[mercuryshadow09]

I'm sure we'll have advanced scalers and such. But as anyone that has spent time with the ones available now can tell you, they're far from a perfect solution and have many issues.

Telephones are a completely different animal thanks to their size and durability. I can buy candlestick phones from the 20's, rotary Bell phones from the 50's, and such all day long at a variety of sources. They were built like a tank, they were small, and people didn't really feel a need to throw them away unless they failed.

CRT's will be available for a few years. But it's already somewhat tough just to find television's from the 1980's. And earlier than that is almost impossible to find a set, let alone one in working order.

Now's the time to be storing these things if space allows if you're a retrogamer that cares about playing on real hardware. There isn't going to be an ample supply of used late model Trinitrons and such indefinitly. People are dumping them now and going for HDTV's and the supply is going to start to shrink pretty soon. They're not things that the average person is going to store away, they're being given away or sent to the dump now.

10 years from now I bet something like a Trinitron will be a real rarity at somewhere like Craigslist, unlike today where there's a constant supply of them.

Replace CRT and TV with turntable, turntables are being made again due to the reemerging popularity of vinyl, maybe you haven't noticed the prices of retro games steadily rising due to recent popularity, but retro is making a big comeback and sooner or later CRT's will too!

[Leo_A]

Nothing else is able to play vinyl records where as even in a community like this, many of us hook our classic systems up directly to the latest HDTV's rather than keeping a CRT setup.

And not only is it not a necessity for classic consoles to be connected to CRT's, the demand for record players is much higher with far many more dedicated audiophiles out there than there are dedicated classic gamers, high end players can easily go for tens of thousands of dollars which the classic gaming market could never bear for a complex and expensive product, and I rather suspect that the investment needed to design and manufacture a top of the line one is a fraction of that of a good CRT television.

Classic gaming's future where quality display technology is concerned rests solidly with external scalers for original hardware or various emulation based solutions that bypass the necessity for original hardware completely. CRT technology isn't going to be making a comeback. It has been replaced with lighter, cheaper, higher profit margin options that the public has embraced as superior (Even though in several regards, they're actually inferior like response time).

Not enough of a market with classic gamers and fans of obsolete pre DVD video formats to justify the expenditure. Not enough demand and the manufacturer of such a thing for this small market would have to be price them unreasonably high to just to make ends meet let alone make any profit. For us CRT loyalist, we're going to have to make do with the shrinking supply of used sets since they aren't coming back.

Someday, I suspect many of us that are CRT loyalist will be making investments in quality external scalers that will hopefully make leaps and bounds in affordability and quality in the coming years that will resolve most issues besides light gun compatibility. Even $400 today in that area won't yield you a perfect all around solution for pre HD game consoles.

And someday, I bet such a thing will become an absolute necessity just to get a classic console picture displayed on the latest tv. I don't think it's much of a leap to predict when HDMI and 1080p are increasingly becoming standard. HDMI only displays will soon be increasingly common as HDMI output becomes all but a standard feature and if 1080p sticks around long enough and people don't buy into the 4K nonsense, I could even see ditching the internal scaling chip someday as 1080p becomes yesterday's 480i in the next decade or so.

[eskobar]

Too many Sony Wega TVs will be alive after 20 years of its production day, so 2020 or 2025 could be a date when CRTs are finally dead or really scarce.

I see more people playing retro games in specialized video hardware like XRGB or similar processors on plasmas or lcds, its way more convenient and given that XRGB adds scanlines to the video signal, its a must-buy for retro gaming without sacrificing valuable space as you do with CRTs.

[Rickstilwell1]

If you live at or go to apartment complexes in the city I bet you can find CRTs free by the dumpster or recycle bin frequently. I do at mine. I currently have 7 in addition to my 2 LCDs so I'm ready to say no more unless I kick one of the ones I have out by giving it to a game store owner who might like to set one up in his shop for his customers.

[Leo_A]

Too many Sony Wega TVs will be alive after 20 years of its production day, so 2020 or 2025 could be a date when CRTs are finally dead or really scarce.

I was just eyeing a nice 30" KV-30XBR910 but it's a bit further than I'd like to drive.

Hard to imagine a big CRT like this that cost a lot of money originally and was bought by someone that likely can upgrade anytime they wish just being stuck away somewhere until the owner decides 20 years down the road that it's time to finally get rid of it.

I don't anticipate any trouble keeping a nice CRT setup going in that time frame. But the window of opportunity to easily and cheaply find a nice lightly used high quality CRT with lots of choices to select from at any given time is fast closing to have something to run in the coming years (Ideally with a few spares sitting around).

I already see a major change just around here and I'm talking about an area that isn't exactly at the cutting edge of technology which means CRT's are being replaced more slowly here than in many other places. If one is counting on replacing with something newly found come 2025, I hope they're not picky.

[8-Bit Archeology]

I dont think crt tvs will ever be reproduced. It would probably cost more to make them now, due to the fact that almost all factories that stop production of a product will scrap the old manufacturing machines.

I have many thrift stores that give away crts but sadly only junky sanyo and zenith styles. No linear trinitron style tvs or moniters. I did see a wega at my habitat for humanity shop, but already filled my car with shelves. If its still there 20 bucks is worth it to me.

The problem in my opinion about finding these nicer crts is that most people think all "big boxy tvs" are junk. They have no idea that others would like their trinitron or wega. So they drop them off at a landfill just like everyone else. It is infortunate though that my landfill refuses to let me take any of these off their hands, since here that would be stealing. I love the recycle signs above the electronics pile, but isnt me using it the real way to recycle?

Im just going to stock up on about 5 or 6 good trinitrons (or pvms if i can find any.) I would rather spend money on one and have it than to wonder why I didnt get one when I had the chance

[eskobar]

I was just eyeing a nice 30" KV-30XBR910 but it's a bit further than I'd like to drive.

Hard to imagine a big CRT like this that cost a lot of money originally and was bought by someone that likely can upgrade anytime they wish just being stuck away somewhere until the owner decides 20 years down the road that it's time to finally get rid of it.

I don't anticipate any trouble keeping a nice CRT setup going in that time frame. But the window of opportunity to easily and cheaply find a nice lightly used high quality CRT with lots of choices to select from at any given time is fast closing to have something to run in the coming years (Ideally with a few spares sitting around).

I already see a major change just around here and I'm talking about an area that isn't exactly at the cutting edge of technology which means CRT's are being replaced more slowly here than in many other places. If one is counting on replacing with something newly found come 2025, I hope they're not picky.


Every morning when I arrive to the office, I don't drink coffee or check the news ... I always check the CRT TV listings on Mercado Libre ... particularly this one:

http://articulo.mercadolibre.com.mx/MLM-441908240-tele-sony-trinition-xbr-36-excelente-func-nego-con-base-_JM

I think that the model of that CRT is KV-36XBR200 ... every 2 months the seller drops the price bit by bit ... and I have the money, but I just can't justify to spend $1,500 pesos on a 200 pound old tv before my wife. The space it takes and the problem to move that behemont is really hard ...

I will be very sad when the TV sells :puppydogeyes:

[PizzaKat]

I find CRT's daily on Craigslist for free, I picked up a really nice Hitachi 32 inch yesterday somebody left on the curb!

How much man power did you have to get to carry that beast? Those things weight a ton.

[wiggyx]

...high end players can easily go for tens of thousands of dollars which the classic gaming market could never bear for a complex and expensive product, and I rather suspect that the investment needed to design and manufacture a top of the line one is a fraction of that of a good CRT television.


Why not? Maybe not now, but there is absolutely no reason to think that collectors of the future would be willing and able to spend some big bucks on an authentic retro experience. I'm sure nobody in the mid-80s thought that ANYONE would give a flying fuck about vinyl 20 years later, much less a thriving uber high-end market for turntables and such.



Every morning when I arrive to the office, I don't drink coffee or check the news ... I always check the CRT TV listings on Mercado Libre ... particularly this one:

http://articulo.mercadolibre.com.mx/MLM-441908240-tele-sony-trinition-xbr-36-excelente-func-nego-con-base-_JM

I think that the model of that CRT is KV-36XBR200 ... every 2 months the seller drops the price bit by bit ... and I have the money, but I just can't justify to spend $1,500 pesos on a 200 pound old tv before my wife. The space it takes and the problem to move that behemont is really hard ...

I will be very sad when the TV sells :puppydogeyes:

I have a KV-36XBR250 that I've been trying to unload for a while now. Nobody seems to want this 250lb monster where I live. I'm only asking $50 for it.

[RoleyDre]

i had a 37 inch sony (it was a trinitron too)that was a piece of lead,i told someone if they wanted it they cud come get it,my coworker and his buddy came and got it one day,took 15 min,and they brought a car,had that thing stickin out of the trunk,haha it was funny but im glad to see that heavy thang go...cause i cud not budge it by myself,but i have 4 other tube tvs lying around(sanyo,sylvania,magnavox,and a sharp),so i got plenty of thse

[Leo_A]

Why not? Maybe not now, but there is absolutely no reason to think that collectors of the future would be willing and able to spend some big bucks on an authentic retro experience. I'm sure nobody in the mid-80s thought that ANYONE would give a flying fuck about vinyl 20 years later, much less a thriving uber high-end market for turntables and such.

Quality high end television manufacturing isn't something that can be done in someone's garage, that's why. Heck, arcade monitor manufacturers couldn't even find justification to keep their lines open despite everything already being in place, the investment in R&D and such having been expended many years earlier, and consistent demand for hundreds of replacements a year.

Vinyl never disappeared and players never left production, not to mention the factors I already stated. There are tens of thousands of vinyl fans out there (And 6 million records were sold in 2013... classic gaming is in no way anywhere remotely as large), quality players can cost tens of thousands of dollars (A professor in my MBA program was an audiophile and telling us about one in a magazine he was admiring that cost $10,000 a few years ago for example), nothing else can play records, they're relatively simple and easy machines to manufacture, etc.

There is a whole host of display options for classic consoles. They don't have to be connected to a standard definition CRT which is reason #1 why there will never be thousands of classic gamers lining up at a manufacturer's door decades down the road for the first new SD CRT's in decades.

[WCP]

I got a nice Sony PVM medical monitor, that was supposedly new, but I think was used slightly, and I do wonder how long the thing will work for me. Right now, it's absolutely fantastic, but I know that a day will come when it will have a problem. I should have bought two of them, and just stored one away as insurance. I continually search for very nice condition Sony BVM's and PVM's in hopes of having a good backup. I hope to play retro games till I die, and I also hope to out live my Sony PVM, so I know I need a backup at some point.

[Jorpho]

The phosphors in a CRT will inevitably degrade no matter how well the CRT is constructed, right?

[Gameguy]

I doubt CRTs will ever be manufactured again, at least with the inputs that we would need to play old games with as they're already mostly obsolete. But I do feel that there will be a demand for working sets again at some point.

If there's still demand for old 1950's televisions in black and white then there will be demand for quality colour monitors.

One example.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1950s-Vtg-Mid-Century-Danish-Pedestal-Philco-Predicta-TV-Television-Atomic-/191086330349#ht_38wt_1305

Even with such a high price nobody has started making black and white CRTs running on vacuum tubes again.


As for this comparison with vinyl and turntables, all this equipment basically still uses the same type of connectors today as they've been using for the last 30/40 years. And vinyl is pretty much the top quality sound possible(with proper equipment and proper pressings), there's very little room to improve on unlike with video formats increasing the resolution every few years for whatever reason. A better comparison would be with cassette decks, plenty of people still use these for recording in high quality but no company still manufactures high quality decks. If anything just belts and rubber parts are still made. If you want a good one, you're forced to look at used decks and have them completely serviced.

Most people who are using turntables today are hipsters. People who use them because they feel the format is cooler compared to modern formats. These are the guys using cheap decks and buying mass produced albums at thrift stores. It's not about having the best audio quality anymore, though I'm sure plenty of people automatically think having music on vinyl makes it sound better than CDs or MP3s.

[mercuryshadow09]

How much man power did you have to get to carry that beast? Those things weight a ton.

Ya they are a bit much but I had a friend help me.

[mercuryshadow09]

though I'm sure plenty of people automatically think having music on vinyl makes it sound better than CDs or MP3s.

Umm, what? You have no clue do you?

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/question487.htm

[Leo_A]

Umm, what? You have no clue do you?

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/question487.htm

Why the attitude?

He didn't say that it didn't sound better, in fact he said quite the opposite while adding that the circumstances for a lot of vinyl fans is such that the end result often isn't superior even though they think it is and that they're largely here since it's cool rather than because they're chasing the best possible sound quality.


And vinyl is pretty much the top quality sound possible(with proper equipment and proper pressings), there's very little room to improve on unlike with video formats increasing the resolution every few years for whatever reason.


Most people who are using turntables today are hipsters. People who use them because they feel the format is cooler compared to modern formats. These are the guys using cheap decks and buying mass produced albums at thrift stores. It's not about having the best audio quality anymore, though I'm sure plenty of people automatically think having music on vinyl makes it sound better than CDs or MP3s.

And he's entirely right about the average vinyl fan and that you need quality hardware, high quality pressings, well maintained equipment, and well cared for media to actually yield a result that's noticeably improved.

[wiggyx]

Quality high end television manufacturing isn't something that can be done in someone's garage, that's why. Heck, arcade monitor manufacturers couldn't even find justification to keep their lines open despite everything already being in place, the investment in R&D and such having been expended many years earlier, and consistent demand for hundreds of replacements a year.

Vinyl never disappeared and players never left production, not to mention the factors I already stated. There are tens of thousands of vinyl fans out there (And 6 million records were sold in 2013... classic gaming is in no way anywhere remotely as large), quality players can cost tens of thousands of dollars (A professor in my MBA program was an audiophile and telling us about one in a magazine he was admiring that cost $10,000 a few years ago for example), nothing else can play records, they're relatively simple and easy machines to manufacture, etc.

There is a whole host of display options for classic consoles. They don't have to be connected to a standard definition CRT which is reason #1 why there will never be thousands of classic gamers lining up at a manufacturer's door decades down the road for the first new SD CRT's in decades.

What? Who said anything about making TVs or high end audio equipment in a garage?

Games never disappeared either. Who are you to say how large of a market there is for retro gaming and what the market will look like in ten or twenty years?

My point was that you are making assumptions about the current and future markets for retro games. Much of what you're saying about the vinyl market could also be said for games. Machines that can play old games are cheap and easy to produce and are readily available on the market and with (somewhat) premium products like the retron 5 coming to fruition, we could very well be on the cusp of a new era of retro gaming. One where adult gamers with a healthy income will pay premium prices for devices on which to experience their old games "as they were meant to be played".

Again, nobody in the 1980s would have thought that there would be a market for vinyl records 20 years down the road. Saying something like "never" may be a bit short-sighted.


I'll tell you another thing, there ARE a significant number of retro gamers out there who are willing to spend a large amount of money to get unique, and somewhat pricey game-related products. I say this not out of speculation or assumption, but from my own experience with running a boutique retro game business. I went from making a few modified Gameboys in my bedroom a year and a half ago to having a staff of 4, off-site office/studio, and a rather large number of repeat customers willing to spend way more than I would have even imagined for custom retro game products and the market only seems to be growing.

[CRTGAMER]

Why the attitude?

He didn't say that it didn't sound better, in fact he said quite the opposite while adding that the circumstances for a lot of vinyl fans is such that the end result often isn't superior even though they think it is and that they're largely here since it's cool rather than because they're chasing the best possible sound quality.

And he's entirely right about the average vinyl fan and that you need quality hardware, high quality pressings, well maintained equipment, and well cared for media to actually yield a result that's noticeably improved.

THIS. Unless a record is perfect with no scratches there will that additional noise. Also the deterioaration every time the needle drags across the vinyl. The richer sound is ruined by the record pop.

[mercuryshadow09]

What? Who said anything about making TVs or high end audio equipment in a garage?

Games never disappeared either. Who are you to say how large of a market there is for retro gaming and what the market will look like in ten or twenty years?

My point was that you are making assumptions about the current and future markets for retro games. Much of what you're saying about the vinyl market could also be said for games. Machines that can play old games are cheap and easy to produce and are readily available on the market and with (somewhat) premium products like the retron 5 coming to fruition, we could very well be on the cusp of a new era of retro gaming. One where adult gamers with a healthy income will pay premium prices for devices on which to experience their old games "as they were meant to be played".

Again, nobody in the 1980s would have thought that there would be a market for vinyl records 20 years down the road. Saying something like "never" may be a bit short-sighted.


I'll tell you another thing, there ARE a significant number of retro gamers out there who are willing to spend a large amount of money to get unique, and somewhat pricey game-related products. I say this not out of speculation or assumption, but from my own experience with running a boutique retro game business. I went from making a few modified Gameboys in my bedroom a year and a half ago to having a staff of 4, off-site office/studio, and a rather large number of repeat customers willing to spend way more than I would have even imagined for custom retro game products and the market only seems to be growing.

I mod and sell retro systems (Mostly PS2 and Xbox) to play older retro games via emulators, on Xbox you can use the light gun for a ton of gun games from other systems, I have a guy willing to shell out $150 for a soft modded Xbox full of games and emu's with light gun and a 24 inch CRT, this guy is just a casual gamer but inquired about a modded NES so he could play Duckhunt, retro gaming has been picking up speed since I got back into it in 2009 and probably before that, but like you said, if there was no market we wouldn't have things like the RetroN5 on the horizon or hundred plus dollar flash carts, as long as there is a demand retro gaming stuff will be produced and right now that demand is rising and every one of us can see that happening or we wouldn't be here discussing it!

[Leo_A]

What? Who said anything about making TVs or high end audio equipment in a garage?

Games never disappeared either. Who are you to say how large of a market there is for retro gaming and what the market will look like in ten or twenty years?

1. So you're actually suggesting that some company will someday spend millions of dollars to specifically produce high end CRT televisions for classic gaming fans? If you believe that, I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I'm looking to sell...

2. CRT's most certainly have disappeared from production.

3. For classic gaming to approach the commercial viability of vinyl, it would have to grow exponentially. Vinyl is big business, classic gaming isn't. Furthermore, tomorrow's classic gaming is going to be systems like the Xbox 360 that are HD ready.


Machines that can play old games are cheap and easy to produce and are readily available on the market and with (somewhat) premium products like the retron 5 coming to fruition, we could very well be on the cusp of a new era of retro gaming.

The Retron 5's HDMI output represents the future here. Clone companies are going to increasingly be producing products for the tv's that are actually in the homes of their customers. How do you get from the casually oriented Retron 5, which isn't even able to connect to 99% of the CRT's out there, to CRT's entering production again?


I'll tell you another thing, there ARE a significant number of retro gamers out there who are willing to spend a large amount of money to get unique, and somewhat pricey game-related products.

Show me something aimed at the dedicated classic gamer that ever sold 1000 units. There are scores of excellent products out there but they're all niche items at best and usually hand produced or assembled with small production runs. How do we go from hobbyist creations to something that would represent a multi million dollar investment for a long dead technology that must be produced at a factory for a market with scores of alternative choices for displaying classic games on a tv?


Who are you to say how large of a market there is for retro gaming and what the market will look like in ten or twenty years?

You're the one making the risky claims, not me. What I said I think most classic gamers would agree with as being the safe bet rather than going out on a limb.

1. CRT's are expensive, complicated machines that require an investment in order to produce one that is many times that of a record player.

2. There are scores of excellent alternatives to using CRT's for classic gaming and that's only going to increase as we further leave the CRT age behind. Only a record player on the other hand will play a record.

3. Vinyl never stopped being commercially viable even if it went through some tough years and a long decline, CRT's have.

4. High end classic gaming products for the dedicated enthusiast are very much niche affairs with very small production runs.

This is in no way, shape, or form big business with budgets in the millions of dollars. And we've already seen pre crash systems level off in popularity and decline as their fanbase largely fulfilled their childhood fantasies or gotten the desired middle age nostalgia kick that they were after. And we will see that with subsequent generations as well. SuperNes prices for instance have been on the rise in recent years. That doesn't go on forever and will someday level off and then go downward just as earlier systems like the VCS have done.

Classic gaming is a moving market where its growth and popularity are concerned. Someday in a few years, we're going to see the 360 and PS3 be the focus at classic gaming forums. There's no sign this market for game systems from the 1970's through the early 2000's will suddenly explode in popularity and become big business with thousands of products released each year specifically for the dedicated enthusiast with some of them investing millions to produce a single product.

What little that does happen outside of the enthusiasts' work bench will be mass market affairs by companies like AtGames and Hyperkin for $50-$100 or so; products not for the dedicated fan, but for the casual fan. A $1,000 + retro gaming CRT simply doesn't apply and is extremely unlikely to ever happen.

[bb_hood]

Why the attitude?

He didn't say that it didn't sound better, in fact he said quite the opposite while adding that the circumstances for a lot of vinyl fans is such that the end result often isn't superior even though they think it is and that they're largely here since it's cool rather than because they're chasing the best possible sound quality.





And he's entirely right about the average vinyl fan and that you need quality hardware, high quality pressings, well maintained equipment, and well cared for media to actually yield a result that's noticeably improved.

Vinyl = Analog recording.
CD/DVD = Digital.
If you know the difference you will know why vinyl is just better.
Some people like the pop and sound the crackle of dust makes on the turntable.
I have records that are warped and scratched and they still sound better than cds.
You dont need fancy equipment or hq pressings to see an improvement.

[Leo_A]

Sorry, but I'll take a well mastered CD any day over a scratched up record.

Either way, I'm in agreement with the quality of vinyl and wasn't questioning it. I was explaining a post to someone that took a rude tone with their reply after apparently just glancing at the post they were replying to and completely turning around what it actually said.

[bb_hood]

Sorry, but I'll take a well mastered CD any day over a scratched up record.

Either way, I'm in agreement with the quality of vinyl and wasn't questioning it. I was explaining a post to someone that took a rude tone with their reply after apparently just glancing at the post they were replying to and completely turning around what it actually said.

I would take the record. As long as it wasnt too scratched.

[mercuryshadow09]

Sorry, but I'll take a well mastered CD any day over a scratched up record.

Either way, I'm in agreement with the quality of vinyl and wasn't questioning it. I was explaining a post to someone that took a rude tone with their reply after apparently just glancing at the post they were replying to and completely turning around what it actually said.

Rude is in the eye of the beholder, maybe if you took your rude colored glasses off you might see my post in a different light!

[wiggyx]

1. So you're actually suggesting that some company will someday spend millions of dollars to specifically produce high end CRT televisions for classic gaming fans? If you believe that, I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I'm looking to sell...

2. CRT's most certainly have disappeared from production.

3. For classic gaming to approach the commercial viability of vinyl, it would have to grow exponentially. Vinyl is big business, classic gaming isn't. Furthermore, tomorrow's classic gaming is going to be systems like the Xbox 360 that are HD ready.



The Retron 5's HDMI output represents the future here. Clone companies are going to increasingly be producing products for the tv's that are actually in the homes of their customers. How do you get from the casually oriented Retron 5, which isn't even able to connect to 99% of the CRT's out there, to CRT's entering production again?



Show me something aimed at the dedicated classic gamer that ever sold 1000 units. There are scores of excellent products out there but they're all niche items at best and usually hand produced or assembled with small production runs. How do we go from that to something that would represent a multi million dollar investment for a long dead technology that must be produced at a factory for a market with scores of alternative choices for displaying classic games on a tv?



You're the one making the risky claims, not me. What I said I think most classic gamers would agree with as being the safe bet rather than going out on a limb.

1. CRT's are expensive, complicated machines that require an investment in order to produce one that is many times that of a record player.

2. There are scores of excellent alternatives to using CRT's for classic gaming and that's only going to increase as we further leave the CRT age behind. Only a record player on the other hand will play a record.

3. Vinyl never stopped being commercially viable even if it went through some tough years and a long decline, CRT's have.

4. High end classic gaming products for the dedicated enthusiast are very much niche affairs with very small production runs.

This is in no way, shape, or form big business with budgets in the millions of dollars. And we've already seen pre crash systems level off in popularity and decline as their fanbase largely fulfilled their childhood fantasies or gotten the desired middle age nostalgia kick that they were after. And we will see that with subsequent generations as well. SuperNes prices for instance have been on the rise in recent years. That doesn't go on forever and will someday level off and then go downward just as earlier systems like the VCS have done.

Classic gaming is a moving market where its growth and popularity are concerned. Someday in a few years, we're going to see the 360 and PS3 be the focus at classic gaming forums. There's no sign this market for game systems from the 1970's through the early 2000's will suddenly explode in popularity and become big business with thousands of products released each year specifically for the dedicated enthusiast with some of them investing millions to produce a single product.

What little that does happen outside of the enthusiasts' work bench will be mass market affairs by companies like AtGames and Hyperkin for $50-$100 or so; products not for the dedicated fan, but for the casual fan. A $1,000 + retro gaming CRT simply doesn't apply and is extremely unlikely to ever happen.

Yes. Anything is possible is my point and saying things like "never" is presumptuous at best.

Classic gaming is plenty big enough business and the market is growing every day. If you're unaware of that, then you've got your eyes closed. Don't know what else to tell ya there.

The 360 will be the 360 and the NES will be the NES and so on. If you're suggesting that the 360 will replace the NES in the retro market, then you've got another think coming. Did Duran Duran albums render Beatles albums a relic of the past only to be forgotten?

The Retron represents the ever growing demand for retro gaming products. A market that "isn't big business" and not worth "spending millions of dollars" on in order to produce a new product. It attacks all manner of retro gamers, casual and "hardcore" alike. If it didn't, then this community wouldn't have so much interest in it.

Over 1K units and we make em by hand. (http://rosecoloredgaming.com/gameboy-advance.html)

I'm simply not ruling it out as a possibility. You are.

Never claimed anything to the contrary.

Only a record player will play a record. Only a cassette player will play cassettes. Only a CD player will play CDs. All produce a different sound quality and, aside from cassettes, many audiophiles believe that their favorite music should only be heard as it was originally available. Many retro gamers feel the same way (and there are some folks on this very forum who are VERY serious about just that sort of thing).

Vinyl VERY much so stopped being commercially viable for a couple of decades and there was nearly no production for equally as long. Like retro games, collecting existing albums was the only option for a considerable amount of time.

Yes, and so are high-end audio setups.

There are many reasons that people feel the pre-crash systems have lost popularity and value. For me, it's because the games are simply not very good when compared to anything from the 3rd generation and up. I was very much so alive and gaming in the early 80's and played many 1st and 2nd gen games. Virtually none of them are of any value to me at this point. Again, I can draw parallels with music. Most anything pre-50s is largely worthless to anyone but the oldest and most ardent collectors, whereas 60's jazz seems to have virtually no price ceiling.

No. I simply do not agree with any of that at all.

I only ever said it was a possibility to consider before 100% ruling it out (which is what you did).

[RoleyDre]

what about a cd playing on an analog cd player?it still prolly has to be compressed to put on the cd to begin with,but i didnt know that the vinyl record was better,of course im gullable

[Leo_A]

CD's are digital, not analog. It doesn't matter what form the audio takes after it's read by the laser, it was still compressed since what's residing on the CD itself is compressed.


Anything is possible is my point and saying things like "never" is presumptuous at best.

There's absolutely nothing presumptuous about that post of mine. It's a logical conclusion about the chances for such a thing happening.



Classic gaming is plenty big enough business and the market is growing every day. If you're unaware of that, then you've got your eyes closed. Don't know what else to tell ya there.

Show me some evidence then. I see no signs of any significant overall growth, just a shifting towards more recent offerings as the market evolves as systems age and their fans mature and have disposable income to chase their childhood dreams. We've seen it with the 2600 which in the late 90's was the focus of many a classic gamer, we've seen it with the NES, and in the past several years, we've seen significant change in the 16 bit market particularly the SuperNes.

And even if it is growing, there is nothing anywhere close happening with classic videogaming. Take all new product aimed directly at the dedicated classic gaming enthusiast that's sold in a year and it will still be a mere fraction of the nearly $200 million in global sales of newly pressed records alone that vinyl took in last year.


If you're suggesting that the 360 will replace the NES in the retro market, then you've got another think coming.

Nonsense, someday the 360 & PS3 will be just the same for the children that have grown up with this console generation. These platforms will die as mainstream consoles, go through a period where they're almost worthless, and then when those fans get older, they too will see a reawakening in popularity with a new generation of dedicated classic gaming enthusiast and casual fans revisiting fond memories that will keep those platforms alive.


It attacks all manner of retro gamers, casual and "hardcore" alike.

It's not an attack at all.

There isn't a single mass market item that has been produced with the dedicated classic gamer squarely in mind. They're all hobbyist creations with extremely small production runs, very limited distribution, and very modest budgets. There is nothing anywhere approaching the scale of what you propose that has ever happened for this community.

I see no reason to view CRT production years down the road for classic gaming purposes as a legitimate possibility. I'd love to be proven wrong of course and I obviously concede it's theoretically possible. But I'm talking about the odds and I think I'm extremely safe with my opinion on the viability of your proposal.


Vinyl VERY much so stopped being commercially viable for a couple of decades and there was nearly no production for equally as long.

That doesn't align with the stats that I've seen. Vinyl has never left production and players have never ceased being manufactured. Even in the worst of years, it was still experiencing sales figures like $40 million in new record sales alone.

On the other hand, CRT's are dead and it's extremely difficult to picture that ever changing years down the line. And there's no way that sales of new homebrews, multicarts, replica marques, and other newly manufactured items aimed at dedicated classic gamers comes anywhere close to even that sales figure.

For original hardware purist, I stand by my conclusion that the external scaler market is where their hopes have to rest if they ever leave older CRT's behind.

Edit: Trimmed a lot of the fat out of my original post just in case someone is quoting something as I edit this. Always did have a tendency to be long winded...

[mercuryshadow09]

what about a cd playing on an analog cd player?it still prolly has to be compressed to put on the cd to begin with,but i didnt know that the vinyl record was better,of course im gullable

The CD was still recorded digitally and needs a laser to read it, an analog CD player is just converting digital to analog.


" Because CD is a digital format, every CD player must be able to convert the digital signal to analog for playback on a stereo system. This is the job of the digital-to-analog converter (DAC).

Most inexpensive CD and Blu-ray players use low-quality DACs. However, high-quality CD players depend on better DACs to squeeze all those little details out of your discs for more accurate playback. One way they achieve this is by minimizing jitter – digital timing errors that can occur during conversion. By minimizing this sound-degrading effect, high-quality DACs can produce a cleaner, more vibrant sound. Some brands of high-quality DACs include Wolfson, Burr-Brown, Analog Devices, Cirrus Logic, and ESS Sabre.

Some high-end CD players are also capable of converting digital signals at a higher sampling rate than the CD. This process, called upsampling, can take a digital signal from a standard CD, encoded at 44.1kHz, and convert it to a higher sampling rate such as 192kHz before converting it to an analog signal. This can make your music sound more detailed and lifelike.

While every CD player has a DAC, some players feature two DACs, using separate converters for the left and right channels. This allows for even more accurate playback as the left and right-channel signals can be kept separate prior to conversion all the way through the output stage, creating a wider soundstage with clearer stereo imaging."

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-g5yu4zogXnS/learn/learningcenter/home/cd.html

[RoleyDre]

The CD was still recorded digitally and needs a laser to read it, an analog CD player is just converting digital to analog.

haha,so its like im losin double that way,ok thx alot,i mainly use my dvd player with digital conection,or my ps3 to listen to music,i just have an old sansui analog single cd player layin around

[Gameguy]

Vinyl = Analog recording.
CD/DVD = Digital.
If you know the difference you will know why vinyl is just better.
Some people like the pop and sound the crackle of dust makes on the turntable.
I have records that are warped and scratched and they still sound better than cds.
You dont need fancy equipment or hq pressings to see an improvement.
What about records advertised as "Digitally Mastered"? Plenty of records were made from studio recordings that were already digitally recorded or altered digitally, converting that to an analog format doesn't improve quality. The best sounding records are recordings that were recorded using analog equipment to begin with. Then they would need high quality pressings, poor pressings won't have the best sound quality. And you'd need high quality equipment to get the best sound from them, the best possible sound is from tube equipment rather than solid state. Plus proper cables between equipment so there's minimal loss in quality.


The Retron represents the ever growing demand for retro gaming products. A market that "isn't big business" and not worth "spending millions of dollars" on in order to produce a new product. It attacks all manner of retro gamers, casual and "hardcore" alike. If it didn't, then this community wouldn't have so much interest in it.
There have been bootleg famiclones produced since the console was still current, clone consoles are nothing new (http://bootleggames.wikia.com/wiki/Clone_consoles). Newly designed consoles designed to play games from another company's console are nothing new either, not since the Colecovision could play Atari 2600 games with that add on. Yet I don't remember any bootleg CRT televisions made during it's heyday.


Over 1K units and we make em by hand. (http://rosecoloredgaming.com/gameboy-advance.html)
But do you make the consoles from scratch, or do you take existing ones and modify them? I'm sure there will always be people servicing CRTs to keep them working, they just won't be made from scratch again.


CD's are digital, not analog. It doesn't matter what form the audio takes after it's read by the laser, it was still compressed since what's residing on the CD itself is compressed.
Just want to point out, the quality of CD sound does depend on the player after it's read by the laser. More specifically, the way a CD player converts the digital information to analog. Some convert this better than others, some people use a separate DAC to convert the information so the CD player will just be used as a CD transport(it just reads the digital information on disc, it doesn't convert the information into anything analog).

[wiggyx]

^^^ That's not the point. The point is that there are retro products selling in the thousands, contrary to what Leo seems to think (based on nothing as best I can tell).


CD's are digital, not analog. It doesn't matter what form the audio takes after it's read by the laser, it was still compressed since what's residing on the CD itself is compressed.



There's absolutely nothing presumptuous about that post of mine. It's a logical conclusion about the chances for such a thing happening.



Show me some evidence then. I see no signs of any significant overall growth, just a shifting towards more recent offerings as the market evolves as systems age and their fans mature and have disposable income to chase their childhood dreams. We've seen it with the 2600 which in the late 90's was the focus of many a classic gamer, we've seen it with the NES, and in the past several years, we've seen significant change in the 16 bit market particularly the SuperNes.

And even if it is growing, there is nothing anywhere close happening with classic videogaming. Take all new product aimed directly at the dedicated classic gaming enthusiast that's sold in a year and it will still be a mere fraction of the nearly $200 million in global sales of newly pressed records alone that vinyl took in last year.



Nonsense, someday the 360 & PS3 will be just the same for the children that have grown up with this console generation. These platforms will die as mainstream consoles, go through a period where they're almost worthless, and then when those fans get older, they too will see a reawakening in popularity with a new generation of dedicated classic gaming enthusiast and casual fans revisiting fond memories that will keep those platforms alive.



It's not an attack at all.

There isn't a single mass market item that has been produced with the dedicated classic gamer squarely in mind. They're all hobbyist creations with extremely small production runs, very limited distribution, and very modest budgets. There is nothing anywhere approaching the scale of what you propose that has ever happened for this community.

I see no reason to view CRT production years down the road for classic gaming purposes as a legitimate possibility. I'd love to be proven wrong of course and I obviously concede it's theoretically possible. But I'm talking about the odds and I think I'm extremely safe with my opinion on the viability of your proposal and my views on why it's so drastically different from vinyl rather than being something that will parallel record player production.



That doesn't align with the stats I've seen. Vinyl has never left production and players have never ceased being manufactured. Even in the worst of years, it was still experiencing sales figures like $40 million in new record sales alone. On the other hand, CRT's are dead and it's extremely difficult to picture that ever changing years down the line. And there's no way that sales of new homebrews, multicarts, and other newly manufactured items aimed at dedicated classic gamers comes anywhere remotely close to that sales figure.

For original hardware purist, I stand by my conclusion that the external scaler market is where their hopes have to rest if they ever leave older CRT's behind.

Edit: Trimmed a lot of the fat out of my original post just in case someone is quoting something as I edit this. Always did have a tendency to be long winded...

Way to selectively reply, excluding most of my key points.

If you really think new vinyl sales never flatlined, well, here's a very clear illustration that says quite the opposite.

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k99/wiggyx/Game%20Stuff/null_zps8cca2e48.jpg

[Leo_A]

The point is that there are retro products selling in the thousands, contrary to what Leo seems to think (based on nothing as best I can tell).

The only retro products selling in the thousands are things aimed squarely at the casual marketplace at modest price points like plug and plays such as the Atari Flashback 2, classic gaming compilations for modern systems, digital downloads, remakes, clone systems, etc. And those casuals buying the latest Atari Flashbacks and multi system clones aren't going to be paying many hundreds of dollars in 10-20 years for a high end CRT.

There has never been an expensive product specifically for the dedicated classic gamer that demanded a huge budget for engineering and manufacturing. High end offerings for this marketplace have very much been labors of love by dedicated hobbyist based out of their homes with small production runs. A hit product like the NES Powerpak measures its sales in the hundreds and that simply isn't the type of numbers that can support even the smallest scale CRT business.


Way to selectively reply, excluding most of my key points.

The only thing I can see that I ignored was your opinion of pre-crash systems like the excellent Atari 2600 and your taste in music that eschews greats like Bing Crosby, Doris Day, and the Andrews Sisters.

If I missed a major point that you raised, my apologies. It certainly wasn't intentional like you're suggesting. My posts are long winded enough without quoting huge chunks of text every few lines.


If you really think new vinyl sales never flatlined, well, here's a very clear illustration that says quite the opposite.

I never said that it didn't go through extremely lean years where it appeared on the verge of extinction. But the fact remains that it never did die and even in those weakest years 15 years ago or so, it was still a Fortune 500 business by comparison to anything involving new products for the dedicated classic gaming enthusiast.

[Mangar]

I tend to be of the mindset that emulation: Both on your PC and Wii/Xbox Live/Etc, tends to diminish the need for niche market CRT's. At the very least it makes the market of retrogamers who would pay a premium much smaller, and assuming one could be made - Makes the price that much more higher.

With that said: I'm currently in the process of purchasing a house. The one I'm looking at has a huge finished basement gameroom already, but geared more sports then gaming. IE: Full Bar, 8 TV's on a wall so you can watch 8 games, pool table, etc... - I've already run through roughly several different scenarios where I modify the basement more to my liking, as in a dedicated arcade with multiple cabinets, and of course a setup allowing pretty much ALL of my systems to be hooked up at once and playable. From the Atari 2600 up until roughly the PS1 generation. Every single scenario I've come up with involves me in some way upconcervting the signal through an XRGB or similar technology, and/or using modified consoles. None of the scenarios involve me using a CRT Television. Which is not to say I dislike CRT's, but rather there are simply better and more efficient ways to display classic consoles then using huge and bulky televisions.

There is pretty much no 'niche' CRT television that will ever make me consider purchasing it. Since with various console modifications and upconversions, there is no point in spending a premium on one. Especially considering the prices on current flat panel HDTV's....

[RoleyDre]

I tend to be of the mindset that emulation: Both on your PC and Wii/Xbox Live/Etc, tends to diminish the need for niche market CRT's. At the very least it makes the market of retrogamers who would pay a premium much smaller, and assuming one could be made - Makes the price that much more higher.

With that said: I'm currently in the process of purchasing a house. The one I'm looking at has a huge finished basement gameroom already, but geared more sports then gaming. IE: Full Bar, 8 TV's on a wall so you can watch 8 games, pool table, etc... - I've already run through roughly several different scenarios where I modify the basement more to my liking, as in a dedicated arcade with multiple cabinets, and of course a setup allowing pretty much ALL of my systems to be hooked up at once and playable. From the Atari 2600 up until roughly the PS1 generation. Every single scenario I've come up with involves me in some way upconcervting the signal through an XRGB or similar technology, and/or using modified consoles. None of the scenarios involve me using a CRT Television. Which is not to say I dislike CRT's, but rather there are simply better and more efficient ways to display classic consoles then using huge and bulky televisions.

There is pretty much no 'niche' CRT television that will ever make me consider purchasing it. Since with various console modifications and upconversions, there is no point in spending a premium on one. Especially considering the prices on current flat panel HDTV's....


man i only have 6 tvs for college football season,and it has 8 of them!!!!dude you can do so much wth all those tvs that is so awesome!!!

heres my living room when its football season...sry its alittle blurry,haha and alittle ghetto, not a trailer fore that stereo-type was out on the board,hahaha

http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff390/roleydre/d3e80bc3-214e-48c0-b9a3-462b9c63bb6f.jpg (http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/roleydre/media/d3e80bc3-214e-48c0-b9a3-462b9c63bb6f.jpg.html)

[Mangar]

man i only have 6 tvs for college football season,and it has 8 of them!!!!dude you can do so much wth all those tvs that is so awesome!!!

heres my living room when its football season...sry its alittle blurry,haha and alittle ghetto, not a trailer fore that stereo-type was out on the board,hahaha

I should probably get some pics of this guys setup. It's actually quite amazing in terms of football. There are actually 9 Flat Panel TV's on a wall. One "Big One" in the middle, with 8 surrounding it. 3 on each side, and 2 underneath. With the same number of Direc-TV Receivers, so all can be showing a different game at once. It's really a pretty awesome. The place is also wired for surround sound, with built in speakers in the ceiling/walls and such. This of course is just one small section of the basement, which is also completely painted in his teams colours. If I buy it, there is some work for me to do - But there are LOTS of things I'm keeping as is, or rather updating with my own TV's...

I do like Football, but I could never justify paying for NFL Sunday Ticket. Especially when if you know how to use a VPN, Sunday Ticket is free over the internet. (If anyone is curious how, I can explain. Been doing it for some years now) I currently have a HTPC in my living room/home theater area, so that works for my football fix.

[RoleyDre]

I should probably get some pics of this guys setup. It's actually quite amazing in terms of football. There are actually 9 Flat Panel TV's on a wall. One "Big One" in the middle, with 8 surrounding it. 3 on each side, and 2 underneath. With the same number of Direc-TV Receivers, so all can be showing a different game at once. It's really a pretty awesome. The place is also wired for surround sound, with built in speakers in the ceiling/walls and such. This of course is just one small section of the basement, which is also completely painted in his teams colours. If I buy it, there is some work for me to do - But there are LOTS of things I'm keeping as is, or rather updating with my own TV's...

I do like Football, but I could never justify paying for NFL Sunday Ticket. Especially when if you know how to use a VPN, Sunday Ticket is free over the internet. (If anyone is curious how, I can explain. Been doing it for some years now) I currently have a HTPC in my living room/home theater area, so that works for my football fix.


i just had to pick up my jaw off the floor,i would be in absolute heaven ,all that stuff ,man total awesome!!! maybe you cud have some tvs for football and then have the arcade kinda around it,not sure where bar is in relation,but possibilities are just about endless there,that is great!!!

also,you can get a receiver that upconverts and send all video input signals outputted thru 1 hdmi to tv.....which i want really bad,one i have doesnt upconvert (strdh800)

[wiggyx]

The only retro products selling in the thousands are things aimed squarely at the casual marketplace at modest price points like plug and plays such as the Atari Flashback 2, classic gaming compilations for modern systems, digital downloads, remakes, clone systems, etc. And those casuals buying the latest Atari Flashbacks and multi system clones aren't going to be paying many hundreds of dollars in 10-20 years for a high end CRT.

There has never been an expensive product specifically for the dedicated classic gamer that demanded a huge budget for engineering and manufacturing. High end offerings for this marketplace have very much been labors of love by dedicated hobbyist based out of their homes with small production runs. A hit product like the NES Powerpak measures its sales in the hundreds and that simply isn't the type of numbers that can support even the smallest scale CRT business.



The only thing I can see that I ignored was your opinion of pre-crash systems like the excellent Atari 2600 and your taste in music that eschews greats like Bing Crosby, Doris Day, and the Andrews Sisters.

If I missed a major point that you raised, my apologies. It certainly wasn't intentional like you're suggesting. My posts are long winded enough without quoting huge chunks of text every few lines.



I never said that it didn't go through extremely lean years where it appeared on the verge of extinction. But the fact remains that it never did die and even in those weakest years 15 years ago or so, it was still a Fortune 500 business by comparison to anything involving new products for the dedicated classic gaming enthusiast.

It's not "my taste" rather than what is actually of monetary value.

Where is your data coming from concerning sale figures for retro gaming related products?

And you ignored a ton regarding the parallels between classic music and classic games, which was directed at your thoughts regarding the PS3 and 360 being the "classics of the future". Not to mention that I've sold over a thousand modified GBAs, which are VERY boutique items, which is exactly what this thread is about. It's fine though. You're obviously contected making assumptions about the current an future gaming markets. Keep on keeping on.

[Leo_A]

Where is your data coming from concerning sale figures for retro gaming related products?

The same place yours is coming from.

Frankly, I think you have a much higher burden of proof than I do if you want to convince people that the commercial viability of classic gaming products for the dedicated enthusiast is somehow on par with vinyl and statistics like $200 million a year in newly pressed record sales alone.

People sure must sell a lot of homebrews, multicarts, replacement side art, and other associated items if we're approaching that. And those are the types of items being produced with us, the individuals that would be interested in new CRT production, in mind. Not the latest Atari Flashbacks and the like that are aimed at the general public.


And you ignored a ton regarding the parallels between classic music and classic games, which was directed at your thoughts regarding the PS3 and 360 being the "classics of the future".

Such as? You mean things like your claim that vinyl "flat-lined" when in actuality, it was still selling millions of dollars worth of brand new product even in its worst of years?

And what you responded with when I stated classic gaming is always evolving not only ignores what has already happened with this hobby, but essentially amounted to "because I said so" when you flat out dismissed the notion that modern consoles like the Playstation 3 with modern classics like the Mass Effect trilogy will be tomorrow's classic gaming focus.

Not only does it raise the question on just how you propose classic gaming will grow greatly in the future if you don't think younger platforms will be viewed with nostalgia, but talk about presumptuous.


Not to mention that I've sold over a thousand modified GBAs, which are VERY boutique items, which is exactly what this thread is about.

You selling some customized refurbished GBA's frankly is irrelevant to this conversation. Newly molded buttons and shells derived from the originals isn't a terribly expensive proposition and otherwise, all you're doing is refurbishing product and matching it with some new components like screens that you've acquired. Not big business in any shape or form and probably not even assembled in a business setting but rather out of your home and done in your spare time.

Nobody said that there aren't neat and perfectly viable projects for the enthusiast that happen. Just that there isn't anything anywhere remotely on the scale of the vinyl business when viewed overall and isn't anywhere close to being able to support the scale necessary to undertake CRT manufacturing for this market. You'd need a good chunk of what vinyl sells in newly pressed records in a single year just to pay for R&D, hire employees, setup a manufacturing facility, etc.

More money than every newly crafted item aimed directly at the classic gamer (Which something like AtGames Flashback line most certainly aren't) will garner this year if you were to add it all together.

[Ed Oscuro]

Last I heard the various makers of good arcade monitors (which can be actually more flexible and even better for arcade gamers than even the amazing Sony and other broadcast/production monitors people talk about, and one of which I own) have basically quit what they're done. I don't think Wells Gardner and Wei-Ya (I don't know who actually made the best CRTs but these are two common names) does anything more but stock parts for their old units. Both are heavily marketing LCD tech like everybody else.

I don't know how much equipment it takes to make good quality sets, and how much maintenance / physical space is required to do that. That would be very important to know. There are other reasons, which might not apply to a boutique manufacturer, why current manufacturers did not keep any plants open: The sheer scale of their existing plants being impractical to scale down, and the necessity of transitioning smoothly (and completely) into new markets. Most companies would wish to move any funds into these promising new technologies.

It kind of burns me out, too, since Sony's flatscreens probably have rather primitive computer correction hardware (e.g. for geometry) compared to what would be possible to do now. Screens could be made much flatter too (though I don't know if up to date tech could fix sets like these (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1217031/whatever-happened-ultra-slim-crts) which got middling reviews).

If we could get a high-resolution display that can sync to multiple refresh rates (think G-SYNC) and update the screen fully to keep pace with CRT scanlines, AND do this without motion blur, we'd have a technology that competes with CRTs for our purposes. That's really where my hopes lie. That said, a boutique CRT manufacturer could accomplish great things.

Actually, there is one final thing to be mentioned here about production: RoHS. RoHS stuff is, to the best of my knowledge, actually beneficial in many areas, but there are no exceptions to even small-scale manufacturers of devices. If you make a device like a CRT, that might be problematic. Elo Touch Systems says that all their touch screen CRT monitors were modified to be RoHS-compliant (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1217031/whatever-happened-ultra-slim-crts), but that would have to be scaled into a larger product.

Where I come down is on parts, mainly. Many parts in a CRT are completely repairable, and the "dated" through-hole soldering technology in many of these units makes servicing easier than machine-placed surface-mount stuff. Now, this won't help if the phosphors dim or some of the particularly unusual components fail - not to mention the CRT itself needs to maintain a vacuum inside. But if you just have a blown fuse, or bad cap, or an IC has failed, just get it repaired...a lot of the "let's make some new CRTs" is coming from people who don't want to do the work to actually baby these things, and just want to keep making more stuff to use and throw away carelessly, piling the costs on everybody else.

[Leo_A]

It indeed would be nice if such a thing happens.

As far as "boutique" crt production goes, this is one of those instances we're you're rooting for the other guy to be right and to be proven wrong. I'm not sure if I've communicated that as well as I could've, but I'd love nothing better than if I could log on to somewhere like StoneAgeGamer in a few years and buy a professionally designed and manufactured CRT specifically designed for the classic videogame fan.

But logic dictates that we must dismiss Wiggy's fantasies. I'm extremely confident that something like the XRGB Mini is more where the future lies for the dedicated classic gaming enthusiast of the future that is sticking with original hardware. Hopefully that technology makes strides in affordability as the needs of the classic gaming community grow as existing CRT's age, the supply of quality replacements diminishes, and the demand for solutions for modern HDTV's rise.

Unfortunately, a quality scaler is awfully expensive right now and in many ways still isn't a perfect solution.

[Ed Oscuro]

Just off-the-cuff, I'd say the physical design of the XRGB around its Marvell (or whatever they've got) scaler chip is the cost. There's a lot of firmware development for their units - and that software engineering and testing seems to be where a sizable portion of their funds go. If they can integrate G-SYNC (or something equivalent) that will make a huge stride towards bringing retrogaming (and even some exotic stuff like arcade games with weird refresh rates) back to the people.

By the way, just found this on the topic of antique CRTs and vacuums -
http://www.antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=163599

Nothing there about phosphors yet, but things don't look totally lost.

[courtesi1]

Here is something I had been wanting for a while - but it's very rare :( and I don't see the situation getting any better:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RADIO-SHACK-TANDY-COLOR-COMPUTER-CM-8-RGB-MONITOR-COCO-SUPER-CLEAN-/231174869963

A RGB monitor for Radio Shack CoCo 3... Probably the best condition I've seen on ebay in recent time... I was told AV is "good enough" but I'll always be wondering...

[ggallegos1]

AV is never good enough once you see RGB, even on a CRT it looks incredible if you have the right console and right cable setup.

[stardust4ever]

Just got done reading this mammoth thread. The biggest issue with CRT manufacture is the lack of ROSH compliance due to the enormous amount of lead added to the glass. The lead serves three purposes: 1) strengthen the glass 2) prevent transmission of ionizing ratiation released by the electron gun 3) make the crt back-braking heavy as eff.

Bottom line, unless manufacturers can create a safe substitute for the tubes that won't leach chemicals into the environment or release harmful radiation upon it's viewers, there won't be any more. CRTs are a thing of the past, and foreign import or doestic manufacture has been banned. Resale or reuse of existing units is still permitted, and recycling highly encouraged, but the current existing stockpile of CRTs is all we will ever get as far as the US or Europe are concerned.

[RP2A03]

Just got done reading this mammoth thread. The biggest issue with CRT manufacture is the lack of ROSH compliance due to the enormous amount of lead added to the glass. The lead serves three purposes: 1) strengthen the glass 2) prevent transmission of ionizing ratiation released by the electron gun 3) make the crt back-braking heavy as eff.

Bottom line, unless manufacturers can create a safe substitute for the tubes that won't leach chemicals into the environment or release harmful radiation upon it's viewers, there won't be any more. CRTs are a thing of the past, and foreign import or doestic manufacture has been banned. Resale or reuse of existing units is still permitted, and recycling highly encouraged, but the current existing stockpile of CRTs is all we will ever get as far as the US or Europe are concerned.


Actually, CRTs have an ROHS exemption.



From http://www.bis.gov.uk/nmo/enforcement/rohs-home/rohs-exemptions:

"5a. Lead in glass of cathode ray tubes

Lead, or more specifically lead oxide, is often used in glass obtain specific characteristics, such as radiation protection in CRTs.). This exemption has been introduced because viable alternatives for these applications have not yet been identified.

For clarity, the exemption applies to lead as a constituent in the glass used in cathode ray tubes."