Could CRTs ever be a niche boutique product of the future? [Archive]

Boltorano

08-18-2011, 11:24 PM

With people occasionally coming out with niche products with pretty high quality (The EverDrive packages sold by Stone Age Gamer come to mind) for the retro gaming market, I got to thinking.

As CRTs become harder and harder to find, and the remaining good quality units slowly wearing out over time due to use, would it ever become profitable for a company to make a high quality CRT display with retro gamers in mind? The better displays made 10 or so years ago usually had a wide variety of the types of inputs that retro gamers would want (S-video, composite, etc.), but perhaps there are some features that could specifically cater to the retro gaming market (perhaps something that could display both NTSC and PAL)?

Will we just have to deal with the displays we currently have to work with? Will DIY repairs keep existing CRTs alive as long as we could hope our consoles to list? Is this just a pipe dream?

Discuss.

Edmond Dantes

08-18-2011, 11:30 PM

I personally just hope my CRT doesn't expire before I do.

But I could imagine such products still being around, just as record players are still around.

Boltorano

08-18-2011, 11:38 PM

I suppose another question is, would it be legal to sell a new model television in the USA (or anywhere else for that matter) without a tuner capable of converting over the air digital broadcasts, even if it wasn't intended for anything other than analog RF converters on old video game systems?

Edmond Dantes

08-18-2011, 11:41 PM

They could advertise it as a computer monitor. A lot of computer monitors nowadays have RCA etc. ports so they can double over as TVs.

Sanriostar

08-19-2011, 02:13 AM

It's already happening; some of us have been in a CRT hoarding mode for a few years. (I'm at 8; as soon as I have more space I'm gunning for more)

maxlords

08-19-2011, 03:05 AM

Yes...there will be people selling CRTs at a premium in another 10-15 years.

Leo_A

08-19-2011, 03:24 AM

WelcomeToTheNextLevel

08-19-2011, 03:36 AM

Nope, not enough retrogamers out there to support production.

They're too complex and too expensive to manufacture. No one is going to design and setup production for something that is going to have it's sales measured in the hundreds, at best.

There are many thousands of retrogamers, so sales may be better (four figures). Wouldn't surprise me if someone began making CRT TV's for the retro market, but it would be a limited affair.

Gameguy

08-19-2011, 03:47 AM

It's still easy to find CRT televisions right now, and it will get slightly easier in Canada shortly as we're just switching over to digital broadcasting signals and plenty of people will be buying new TVs to have a working tuner.

If anything they should be making replacement vector monitors for arcade machines as those have been long out of production and plenty of people need new ones now to restore old arcade machines.

Icarus Moonsight

08-19-2011, 04:51 AM

Possibly. I think display technology surpassing all CRTs finest points for less cost is much more likely though.

VACRMH

08-19-2011, 08:44 AM

Possibly. I think display technology surpassing all CRTs finest points for less cost is much more likely though.

Ditto. I see more people making niche products to get that old school feel if anything (Like that person who made an adaptor to show scanlines)

Compute

08-19-2011, 08:55 AM

They'll be right next to Sega's new console.

Jorpho

08-19-2011, 09:01 AM

They're too complex and too expensive to manufacture.Don't forget heavy, fragile, and difficult to store.
There are many thousands of retrogamers, so sales may be better (four figures).That's still pretty insignificant.
Possibly. I think display technology surpassing all CRTs finest points for less cost is much more likely though.Yeah, that.

Clownzilla

08-19-2011, 10:47 AM

Possibly. I think display technology surpassing all CRTs finest points for less cost is much more likely though.

With all the graphic tweeking options I can get a desired look from an emulator on my PC running through my LCD TV. If the TV itself would have some of the same adjustments then I would never consider a CRT again. So I would think an LCD TV with retro game adjustments would be much more likely. If those same LCD TV's could somehow reproduce the screen refresh of CRT TV's (for oldschool light guns) then I would easily be in for one.

WelcomeToTheNextLevel

08-19-2011, 03:25 PM

The aging technology will be cheaper to make, so it may be justified to make something that'll sell a few thousand units.

Suikoman444

08-19-2011, 04:49 PM

Or more expensive to make, if the parts needed to make the new units become difficult to find cheaply.

Icarus Moonsight

08-19-2011, 05:04 PM

Age doesn't make things cheaper as a rule. It can, but it's not true most cases.
Case in point: http://www.delorean.com/newbuild.asp

Shingetter

08-19-2011, 05:09 PM

Really all they need to do is get light guns to work, I'd never miss CRT's. I moved one of those 36in Sony's into the house only to have it crap out 3 months later, then move it to the dump. It was fucking heavy, awkward, and not worth it.

RP2A03

08-19-2011, 05:43 PM

Superior picture quality is always worth it. Personally, I'm holding my breath for FED and hoping I don't die from asphyxia.

Leo_A

08-19-2011, 06:35 PM

There are many thousands of retrogamers, so sales may be better (four figures). Wouldn't surprise me if someone began making CRT TV's for the retro market, but it would be a limited affair.

Show me something aimed at the retrogaming marketplace that has ever even sold 1000 units. And retrogamers are cheap. Look at any of the amazing reprogrammable multicarts like the Cuttle Cart II that we've gotten in recent years and you'll find no shortage of dedicated retrogamers saying $100-$300 is way too much for a device that opens up the entire library to a gamer on real hardware without having to change cartridges. Production of something aimed at us is usually measured in the dozens. If you're very lucky with an extraordinarily successful product, you might manage several hundred units sold.

CRT production is big business, supplying retrogamers and such isn't. You need tens of thousands of sales just to justify producing a television that is cheap and of poor quality. A very high quality CRT with a few hundred in potential sales to retrogamers at $150 would probably cost something like $10,000 a unit just to design and do a minimum production run of, if you could even find a willing manufacturer.

Isn't happening unless some classic gamer wins big in the lottery and decides to start up a not for profit enterprise to supply high quality CRT's to classic gamers at a heavily subsidized price. Just look at CRT production for arcade units where there is still a reasonable sized market to supply hundreds of replacement units to each year. Companies still shut down their existing production lines with models that were developed long ago with the necessary tooling already in place.

No one is going to design and manufacture a television that will see its' sales measured in the dozens. It just simply isn't viable.

Boltorano

08-19-2011, 06:49 PM

I suppose I wouldn't really miss CRTs either as long as there were some sort of flat panel alternative that can emulate the experience somewhat.

I've heard a lot of complaints about the speed/quality of analog to digital conversion on LCD panels. Personally all the ones I've tried have such a built in lag as to be useless for any sort of gaming. Are there any out there that do a good enough job and fast enough?

CRTGAMER

08-19-2011, 09:16 PM

My Login
I don't see CRTs making a comeback. Too heavy, bulky and a niche market. a shame though, I still consider the CRT the best for Retro games. No Dot Crawl upscale issues of LCDs. Even regular movie viewing, the brightest screen at any angle.

Any WEGA owners
I am dedicated to the CRT, own a HD CRT 4:3. Some good info to keep your WEGA going, I posted an under twenty dollar repair guide for Sony Trintron WEGA TVs over at Racketboy. :cool:

Sony Trinitron WEGA RLOD Twenty Dollar Repair Guide (http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=458437#p458437)

Zing

08-20-2011, 08:33 AM

I have hoarded two of my CRT televisions.

I can't imagine much of a market in the far-off future for these. By the time the supply of CRTs dries up enough to potentially have an impact, no one will care. It would be like me going out of my way to get a display just to play a Vetrex or Odyssey 2. Not going to happen.

old man

08-20-2011, 06:04 PM

Age doesn't make things cheaper as a rule. It can, but it's not true most cases.
Case in point: http://www.delorean.com/newbuild.asp

Where are the upgrades that make it fly and travel through time?

Parodius Duh!

08-20-2011, 06:57 PM

Ive been hoarding cheap TVs from goodwill and salvation army, have about 5 at this point.

wingzrow

08-20-2011, 08:28 PM

Possibly WAY down the line, but i'm just hoarding sets myself.

The real issue is finding someone who knows how to FIX a display you already enjoy. The capacitors on my favorite trinitron are going back and I have no idea how to get someone to replace them.

WelcomeToTheNextLevel

08-20-2011, 08:31 PM

kedawa

08-21-2011, 04:54 AM

It was hard enough to find a decent CRT when they were the standard.

Jorpho

08-21-2011, 01:26 PM

And how exactly do you define "decent" ?

isufje

08-21-2011, 01:47 PM

If anything they should be making replacement vector monitors for arcade machines
True... I'd hate to have to play Star Wars on an oscilloscope...

The capacitors on my favorite trinitron are going BAD...

What model #? I have a PVM-1910 (RGB) that blew out many years ago. Luckly I had a 13inch Sony trinitron which had the exact same board. To make a long story short, I sacrificed the smaller one to save the BIGGER ONE. Check your Diodes!!!

genesisguy

08-21-2011, 03:38 PM

The real question is how much life span do you think we have left in CRT TVs in general? Even if we horde them aren't they going to die at some point?

stargate

08-21-2011, 05:36 PM

I started hoarding about a year ago. I picked up a couple nice Sony Trinitrons for dirt cheap, including a free 36" beast that retailed for 2K brand new. I also obtained a number of smaller 27" sets. People are giving these things away now.

BUT, then I figured it was just a hassle. The things are big and heavy as sh!t. The 36" Sony nearly killed me moving it. I gave them all away except a 27" set because I don't have the space. I figure there will be ample supply on the used market for the next 10-15 years. I mean, CRT televisions have been in production for decades. There should be enough of them out there to supply the retrogaming market for awhile. I just don't think hoarding is necessary and no, I don't believe that a 27" CRT television will ever be a collectors item in our lifetime.

After that, hopefully the modern televisions will be capable of displaying our beloved classic gaming consoles with decent quality. I am sure there will be adapters and upconverters and all kinds of gizmos to help us along. The benefit will be that we will be playing NES on a 100" paper thin display versus a 32" tank.

Icarus Moonsight

08-21-2011, 05:45 PM

I had to dump a few CRTs myself. When I found a pair of Mitsubishi Megaview 37s on CL I needed the room to keep two 300lb monsters with their travel cases, and frankly, don't need anything else. These stomp Wega and PVMs into the ground. I'd still take a CRT XBR though. Haven't even seen one in person yet. LOL

CYRiX

08-21-2011, 05:51 PM

I feel like at some point in the future TV's will be able to handle old connections such as composite, RF, and svideo and make them look just like they did on CRT's.

Leo_A

08-21-2011, 07:06 PM

After that, hopefully the modern televisions will be capable of displaying our beloved classic gaming consoles with decent quality.

Your entire post is over optimistic in my opinion, but I'll restrict my reply to just this.

I wouldn't hold your breath for this. Non HD resolutions are just going to be getting less and less relevant to corporations like Sony and its consumers as time goes by and we go deeper into the HD age.

If anything, it's going to get worse. I can forsee a day where a resolution like 1080p becomes all but standard for media and is so universal that HDTV manufacturers start forsaking including scaling chips that are just going unused by the vast majority of their customers.

They're not going to be putting effort into trying to get our Atari 2600's and such looking and performing just like they did on CRT's. Let's be sensible here. Their effort is already dedicated to HD resolutions with just passing support for standard definition, despite it still being relevant in 2011.

It isn't going to be getting any better. If anything changes, it seems likely it's going to be for the worse as far as we're concerned.

Icarus Moonsight

08-21-2011, 07:32 PM

A hardware converter between source and display is the most logical place to look after CRTs are long gone. I'm not much into A/V setups, how are the hardcore video people trending on this? Are they forsaking CRTs? If they are, I wouldn't hold out any hope. If they won't buy a CRT display but will spend thousands on a mini-tube amp, it's not looking good for future niche CRT use.

stargate

08-21-2011, 08:23 PM

Your entire post is over optimistic, in my opinion, but I'll restrict my reply to just this.

I wouldn't hold your breath for this. Non HD resolutions are just going to be getting less and less relevant to corporations like Sony and its consumers as time goes by and we go deeper into the HD age.

If anything, it's going to get worse. I can forsee a day where a resolution like 1080p becomes all but standard for media and is so universal that HDTV manufacturers start forsaking including scaling chips that are just going unused by the vast majority of their customers.

They're not going to be putting effort into trying to get our Atari 2600's and such looking and performing just like they did on CRT's. Let's be sensible here. Their effort is already dedicated to HD resolutions with just passing support for standard definition, despite it still being relevant in 2011.

It isn't going to be getting any better.

I agree with you to some degree. However, if there is enough demand from the retro gaming market, there will be some work around that is developed. No, not by television manufacturers, but hopefully by fellow enthusiasts or smaller developers. Similar to the companies out there now that cater to the retro gaming market.

I am also fairly confident that I wil be able to buy a replacement CRT on the used market for the next 10 to 20 years. Trust me, they will be out there. Last week my mom said she has been wanting "one of those telephones from the 1950's with the metal dial" for her kitchen. I found her one in 5 minutes on ebay, perfect working condition from 1954 with a modded phone jack.... $35 shipped. I'm just saying, 90% of the human population will have no need or desire for CRT's 20 years from now. Us retrogamers should be all set.

So what do we do when CRT's are no longer available or easy to come by? OK, I'll probably be 60 by then, but still, what do I do? I am just thinking that technology will be pretty advanced by then and there should be some way to play vintage consoles and have them look decent. Enthusiasts always find a way to keep up their hobbies, sort of how MAME came into being.

OR, worst case, I'm sure most classic games will be available for download my then and will probably be running in 4320p or better resolution. As it stands, I am playing Neo Geo games on my PS3 and they look pretty damn good on my 60" LCD.

Leo_A

08-21-2011, 08:39 PM

I'm sure we'll have advanced scalers and such. But as anyone that has spent time with the ones available now can tell you, they're far from a perfect solution and have many issues.

Telephones are a completely different animal thanks to their size and durability. I can buy candlestick phones from the 20's, rotary Bell phones from the 50's, and such all day long at a variety of sources. They were built like a tank, they were small, and people didn't really feel a need to throw them away unless they failed.

CRT's will be available for a few years. But it's already somewhat tough just to find television's from the 1980's. And earlier than that is almost impossible to find a set, let alone one in working order.

Now's the time to be storing these things if space allows if you're a retrogamer that cares about playing on real hardware. There isn't going to be an ample supply of used late model Trinitrons and such indefinitly. People are dumping them now and going for HDTV's and the supply is going to start to shrink pretty soon. They're not things that the average person is going to store away, they're being given away or sent to the dump now.

10 years from now I bet something like a Trinitron will be a real rarity at somewhere like Craigslist, unlike today where there's a constant supply of them.

Aussie2B

08-21-2011, 09:34 PM

I'm not remotely worried about this. I can go to any thrift and find massive piles of working VCRs, so CRTs aren't going anywhere for quite awhile. I think it's silly and just wasted space/effort to hoard TVs at this point. I would guess that most of us already have at least a couple without intentional hoarding anyway. I got a nice big one, a couple little ones, and if I really needed more, I could get from my family, I'm sure.

stargate

08-21-2011, 09:57 PM

I'm sure we'll have advanced scalers and such. But as anyone that has spent time with the ones available now, they're far from a perfect solution and have many issues.

Telephones are a completely different animal thanks to their size and durability. I can buy candlestick phones from the 20's, rotary Bell phones from the 50's, and such all day long at a variety of sources. They were built like a tank, they were small, and people didn't really feel a need to throw them away unless they failed.

CRT's will be available for a few years. But it's already somewhat tough just to find television's from the 1980's. And earlier than that is almost impossible to find a set, let alone one in working order.

Now's the time to be storing these things if space allows if you're a retrogamer that cares about playing on real hardware. There isn't going to be an ample supply of used late model Trinitrons and such indefinitly. People are dumping them now and going for HDTV's and the supply is going to start to shrink pretty soon. They're not things that the average person is going to store away, they're being given away or sent to the dump now.

10 years from now I bet something like a Trinitron will be a real rarity at somewhere like Craigslist, unlike today where there's a constant supply of them.

I am not saying you are wrong. I mean, who knows really? But no matter what the technology, you can still get your hands on it. Right now, whether you want a VCR player, Betamax, Laser disc player, vintage radio, even a friggin hand crank Victrola for your LP's, they are in fairly abundant supply. CRT's were massed produced across the entire globe for what like 30 years? I just fail to see that we will ever have a problem obtaining one. I thnk your estimate of "a few years" is very pessimistic.

BUT, you could be right and there is no harm hoarding CRT's if you have the room to be on the safe side. Now is definitely the time to buy, they are dirt cheap and in abundant supply.

This thread reminds me of that South Park episode where Cartman time travels to get a Wii system, only to find out that it is not compatible with the televisions of the future.

Leo_A

08-21-2011, 11:13 PM

Myself and many others keep things like Atari 2600's going 30 years later without much issues, so I'm not trying to predict doom and gloom here. I just don't think they're going to retain their widespread availability for such an extended period of time. The crop's ripe right now, so I say take advantage of it while you can if you're in a position that allows you to store several sets with an eye towards the future.

Right now, whether you want a VCR player, Betamax, Laser disc player, vintage radio, even a friggin hand crank Victrola for your LP's, they are in fairly abundant supply. CRT's were massed produced across the entire globe for what like 30 years?

30 years? You're kidding, right?

CRT's are what was produced from the dawn of television broadcasting up until now (They're still produced, my Wal-Mart recently got some big screen CRT's from some generic sounding electronics firm in after a year or so without any CRT's, Sony still produces Trinitrons for the professional marketplace, etc. So their day in the sun hasn't quite fully set just yet). So over a 60 year run as of now for production units aimed at consumers, although most manufacturers and consumers jumped ship over the course of the past 5 years.

VCR's are still produced. They're combination VHS/DVD players, but they're still manufactured and widely available. And I believe that finding a working Betamax or Laserdisc player isn't the easiest thing to do these days, but I suppose that has just as much to do with their uncommon nature in the first place as anything else.

I just don't see people hanging on to these things due to their size. They're doing exactly what you, as a retrogamer even, did with your Trinitrons and such. They're either going to find homes or head to the dump. Sticking them in the attic and such isn't going to be what most people choose to do with them like they did with their radios and such when they replaced them over the years, except for perhaps smaller models like 13" sets.

I hope you're right, but I tend to think we're in for a tough time trying to locate something such as a 30" Trinitron 15 years down the road. People aren't going to be digging these out to sell years later because when they're replaced, they're going to be disposing of them one way or another.

They're just too big and too heavy to stick in a box and forgot about them for decades like people did with their 2600's, old Bell telephones, etc.

RP2A03

08-21-2011, 11:46 PM

I also think that good cathode rays with be hard to come by 15 - 20 years from now. By then many of them will probably have tired tubes that won't be able to focus well and will have to be wildly overdriven in order to produce decent color.

Also, to anyone hoarding CRTs, keep in mind that the phosphors will slowly deteriorate in storage and the high temperatures that are present in the attic and garage will speed up this process.

Boltorano

08-22-2011, 12:23 AM

What inspired me to ask this question originally was seeing a 30 inch Trinitron TV in a local thrift store, but only after I saw the label that said it had already been sold (I think it was for $40) did I realize that I don't actually have a good tube television (there are 3 in the house but they're either old, worn out, or cheap).

Then I felt bad.

Aussie2B

08-22-2011, 12:29 AM

They're either going to find homes or head to the dump.

There are a lot more options that that. Considering that most people would have to haul it themselves to the dump and pay to have it taken, I don't think the dump is the first option that many people would go for unless it's broken to begin with. I think ditching it at the Goodwill, Salvation Army, pawn shop, etc. is more likely. I already see the thrifts loaded with them, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. Then it's just a matter of us retrogamers picking one up when we need them. The selection will diminish over time and we'll occasionally encounter CRTs with problems, but these are issues that any of us should already be very comfortable and familiar with with our old systems and games.

Peonpiate

08-22-2011, 01:54 AM

I think in general that CRT's will struggle to find a niche. They are nice, yes, but as soon as a LCD is made that does retro aswell as a CRT did then that niche is dead. And it could happen.

Also CRTs are just fucking heavy and bulky, its easy to talk about them and all, but I have a 20 incher that weighs 60Lb in my room and it was hell to move it out to storage. Replacing it with a slim LCD that weighs virtually nothing felt good.

Leo_A

08-22-2011, 02:29 AM

It was an expression. I'm saying that CRT owners are going to get rid of them and they're either going to find good homes (Placed on Craigslist or a thrift store and such and bought by someone that can't afford a more modern tv or wants a SD set for a particular reason like classic videogames), or be disposed of. I don't think there are many, if any, dumps left in this country where you can drive up and get rid of your garbage. So I didn't mean it literally.

And places like your local Goodwill aren't going to hang on to these things forever until the day comes that someone needs one. At the rate that HD is growing in this nation, most standard definition sets are living on borrowed time, especially the higher end models that are so desirable to us that were bought by people that can go out and buy an expensive new HD set the minute they decide they want one. A place like Goodwill isn't going to hang on to a bunch of old sets with the hope they can trickle them out the front door over the next couple of decades. In fact many such places are so flooded that they don't already don't accept CRT computer monitors and televisions anymore.

We're dumping them just like railroads abandoned the steam locomotive in the 1950's in the United States. What was once ubiquitous and a common sight across the country is disappearing just as rapidly as the steam locomotive did during the 1950's and is going to transition to being surprisingly scarce, almost unnoticed, seemingly overnight just like the steam locomotive did, I bet.

They're not going to inventory these things over the next few years of mass abandonment by the average consumer just because some classic gamer might need a nice CRT in the year 2020 or 2030. They work on a model not unlike most animal shelters (Sadly, in the case of animal shelters), especially for bulky old electronics. They find new homes in the immediate future, or they're eventually disposed of if they're not selling to make room for new donations that will sell. The droves of television owners getting rid of their CRT's isn't going to last forever and those flooded thrift stores and such aren't going to stay that way for years and years.

Once the HD transition is basically complete, the constant resupply of used CRT's is going to be at an end.

kedawa

08-22-2011, 02:31 AM

And how exactly do you define "decent" ?
Something like a 1084S, with adjustable screen size and position, and RGB support.

Aussie2B

08-22-2011, 04:39 AM

You have to also consider the large number of people that don't feel it necessary to buy an HDTV. The elderly, baby boomers, low income families, etc. Practically everyone has a TV, but plenty of people couldn't care less if it's old or if the picture isn't great. My mom was using a TV from the 80s up until a couple years ago, and when someone gave her a new one (a 90s CRT, moving on up, haha), then my brother took the 80s one and used it until it finally dropped dead (it probably could've kept going for goodness knows how long, but the heat in the garage where it was stored after my mom got her new one probably did it in). This is just one of many examples in my family alone.

So not everybody is immediately dumping their CRTs. Joe Shmoe who wants the latest and greatest may be dumping them in droves, but all these other people are going to slowly trickle them out.

Jorpho

08-22-2011, 09:35 AM

If anything, it's going to get worse. I can forsee a day where a resolution like 1080p becomes all but standard for media and is so universal that HDTV manufacturers start forsaking including scaling chips that are just going unused by the vast majority of their customers.

They're not going to be putting effort into trying to get our Atari 2600's and such looking and performing just like they did on CRT's. Let's be sensible here. Their effort is already dedicated to HD resolutions with just passing support for standard definition, despite it still being relevant in 2011.On the other hand, you can still buy RF boxes pretty easily these days.

I don't think the dump is the first option that many people would go for unless it's broken to begin with. I think ditching it at the Goodwill, Salvation Army, pawn shop, etc. is more likely. I already see the thrifts loaded with them, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.Last time I tried to ditch a CRT, the only reason I was still able to get it taken away for free was because it had composite jacks.

Something like a 1084S, with adjustable screen size and position, and RGB support.Well, RGB support is kind of a niche thing, isn't it? Besides, you can still get RGB-to-VGA boxes, right?

Leo_A

08-22-2011, 11:19 AM

So not everybody is immediately dumping their CRTs. Joe Shmoe who wants the latest and greatest may be dumping them in droves, but all these other people are going to slowly trickle them out.

While I don't disagree with you that everyone isn't getting rid of their CRT's right now (Heck, my family doesn't want to leave our SD CRT's behind, the only HDTV in the house is just used for the 360 and PS3 and we've all been resisting the change and plan to stay with SD CRT's for quite sometime yet as our primary televisions), I think the vast majority already have or will convert over the next 5 years.

And HDTV's have came so far down in price in recent years that they stopped several years ago being items that just sold to the early adapter type of consumer that needed the latest and greatest. They're an affordable mass market piece of consumer electronics now.

You have to also consider the large number of people that don't feel it necessary to buy an HDTV. The elderly, baby boomers, low income families, etc. Practically everyone has a TV, but plenty of people couldn't care less if it's old or if the picture isn't great. My mom was using a TV from the 80s up until a couple years ago, and when someone gave her a new one (a 90s CRT, moving on up, haha), then my brother took the 80s one and used it until it finally dropped dead (it probably could've kept going for goodness knows how long, but the heat in the garage where it was stored after my mom got her new one probably did it in). This is just one of many examples in my family alone.

So not everybody is immediately dumping their CRTs. Joe Shmoe who wants the latest and greatest may be dumping them in droves, but all these other people are going to slowly trickle them out.

Once HDTV's penetration rate reaches the 90% range for homes that own televisions, we're going to see this well start to dry up. Even with a small percentage of loyalist sticking it out for an extended period due to things like cost, no desire to upgrade, or for a speciality reason like VHS viewing or classic videogames, that's going to be a pretty small drop in the bucket. And that point isn't terribly far away judging by the rate of growth for HDTV's (We've gone in a very short amount of time from next to nothing to well over 50%, as of last year, for households that own at least one HDTV). I bet we surpass a 90% penetration rate before this decade is half over since consumers are hardly "trickling" these things out. It's a mass abandonment.

And the small number of those CRT owners that do stick it out longer is just going to be getting smaller and smaller. As those sets fail, they're going to be stuck going with HDTV's since everyone else left CRT's years earlier with little supply available for used replacements since those sets either found homes with like minded individuals that wanted to stick with CRT technology or were disposed of years earlier.

And the CRT loyalist that are sticking with it because of factors you cited like cost or special needs like classic gaming aren't likely to be giving up their sets until they die. So kills the idea that this small segment of people is going to keep the market supplied with used sets for an extended length of time like you think.

Those people 5 years from now won't be leaving their CRT's behind until there is a failure and they're forced to.

Kevincal

08-22-2011, 02:08 PM

I think cheap CRT's will be readily available on craigslist for many many years to come.

I have always had a thing for Sony Trinitrons... I picked up a 40 inch Trinitron XBR the other day for $40. Holy hell, the thing weighs over 300 pounds lmao... It's pretty awesome but I had to put it on the floor instead of a foot and half up on a stand because there was no way to get it up there with 2 people. The tv is awesome though and is even 1080i hd ready, and it was made in 2002.

I am lucky to live between san fran and sac cali so theres always tons of trinitrons on craigslist. i think there was like 4 40 inch xbrs on there, most were asking over $100 closer to 200.

My next tv will not be a crt though, my dream tv now is a 65 inch sony hd. :)

I have other trinitrons, a 37 inch from 1999, 35 inch from 2001 and 20 inch from 2002. My mom has a 32 inch trinitron.

Love gaming on trinitrons. :) The picture quality on my 20 inch is spectacular.

BetaWolf47

08-22-2011, 07:46 PM

A 27 or 32 inch is the perfect size for classic gaming. Those will fit on a dresser or something and be big enough for four-player splitscreen.

On topic though, I'd rather they improve on LCD screens, removing delay and improving the quality of interlacing. I'm bummed how bad playing old stuff, and even Wii, is on an LCD screen.

Aussie2B

08-22-2011, 08:40 PM

And HDTV's have came so far down in price in recent years that they stopped several years ago being items that just sold to the early adapter type of consumer that needed the latest and greatest. They're an affordable mass market piece of consumer electronics now.

No arguing there, but the type of people I mentioned, which are a significant portion of the population, are content to keep using the same set for decades as long as they keep working, even if an HDTV is reasonably affordable. Affordable or not, it's still viewed as a waste of money by those that feel zero reason to upgrade.

Boltorano

08-31-2011, 01:55 AM

A little bump for my own thread for a somewhat related question. I am looking to purchase a new LED TV, probably in the 19" range, to play PS3 on. Some models in this size range have what's called a "Game Mode", which I assume is some low-quality (but faster) analog to digital conversion for the component/composite inputs although I could be wrong and it might just be for digital inputs.

What I'm wondering is, even if I have a CRT to play retro games on, are there any TVs out there that actually have decent conversion speed, at least low enough to actually bother with games that don't rely on very low response times? I understand it will look like ass but there might be some situations where I'd like to be able to do it.

swlovinist

08-31-2011, 02:50 AM

Just got done helping PRGE with other organizers test and prepare 41 CRTs for the upcoming show. Up here in the northwest, TVs are very easy to get. I personally have about 10, with amiga and commodore monitors as well. Might be a market in decades to come, but right now and the near future, there are ton of TV sets clogging up Thrift Stores.

marvelus10

08-31-2011, 03:02 AM

Do CRT TV's wear out from use or is it age of parts and chemicals breaking down, if one was to purchase a new in the box CRT and store it away for 30 years will it work when you open it up?

Leo_A

08-31-2011, 04:03 AM

Do CRT TV's wear out from use or is it age of parts and chemicals breaking down, if one was to purchase a new in the box CRT and store it away for 30 years will it work when you open it up?

Chances are that it would still work, I'd say. There are people at this very site that routinely play classic game consoles on 1980's era televisions that have been in regular use since they were purchased.

So I don't see why a set that is properly stored shouldn't last an extended period of time.

kedawa

08-31-2011, 04:43 AM

It really depends on the age of the screen. Anything made around the turn of the century up to about 2005 could potentially suffer from bad electrolytes in the capacitors, which will fail over time whether they are used or not.

stonic

08-31-2011, 09:10 AM

Do CRT TV's wear out from use or is it age of parts and chemicals breaking down, if one was to purchase a new in the box CRT and store it away for 30 years will it work when you open it up?

Capacitors "dry out" even if not used, but they can be replaced. The real problem is the tube itself. The phosphor coating inside the tube breaks down with use (not sure if the same happens with age), and the picture will increasingly get more dim and blurry, and the color gets weaker. There's no way to repair that.

AFAIK all CRT production stopped in the U.S. but they're still being made in other countries.

kedawa

08-31-2011, 10:37 AM

I'm not sure about the phosphors either. I would assume they degrade over time no matter what, but actual use accelerates the process.
The only way to compensate is to crank up the gain(not sure if that's the right term) on the cathode. The picture will look bright and vibrant again for a few months, maybe years, but the tube will burn out faster.

Gameguy

08-31-2011, 12:17 PM

Do CRT TV's wear out from use or is it age of parts and chemicals breaking down, if one was to purchase a new in the box CRT and store it away for 30 years will it work when you open it up?
We still have a TV from the late 60's or early 70's that still works, at least it did the last time it was used a few years ago.

I really should check out our family's first TV set from the early 60's to see if it's still working, it wasn't used much since the TV set mentioned above was purchased as that had a tuner with more channels to choose from(more than just VHF). It would be great if this one still worked fine, I probably should look for some type of pong system to test it out with. LOL

Besides the capacitors I'm pretty sure the rest of the components wear out from actual usage. One TV we still kept from the early 80's needs to warm up for a stable picture, from what I can find out online it seems some capacitors from the power supply need to be changed. Having to change the capacitors isn't that big of a deal as long as you can find someone to do it properly, working around monitors can be dangerous if you don't know what you're doing.

SuperOstrich

08-31-2011, 05:17 PM

I thought this was pretty cool; http://www.pcworld.com/article/187656/lg_goes_retro_introduces_new_crt_tv.html

Do not adjust your screen! Yes, it is 2010. And yes, this is an all-new CRT display from electronics giant LG.

The cutesy 14-inch set, known as the Serie 1 Retro Classic, makes use of the now-outdated cathode ray tube (CRT) display technology.

Over the last decade, the bulky and somewhat fragile CRT technology gave way to more modern, more efficient display technologies such as plasma or LCD. However, it seems LG want to satisfy any retro vibe consumers may be having.

According to Technabob, LG's new Serie 1 Retro Classic TV features all the usual characteristics of an old television set, such as an extendible antenna, rotating knobs to change the channel and adjust volume, and even detachable legs.

Yet despite its throwback charm, this new set also packs in some modern features, including an updated digital tuner, composite video inputs, and a (wireless) remote control. If all those modern features are too much for you, LG has included an extremely retro feature: the ability to watch TV in black and white or sepia.

LG's latest fashionable effort is currently only available in South Korea with no word on whether the company's new $215 TV will make its way to our shores. Do you miss the retro look? Or does the love of old have no place in your 21st century home?

I would totally buy one if I could find a Canadian distributor.

LaughingMAN.S9

08-31-2011, 07:20 PM

http://www.experience-it-all.com/wp-content/gallery/lg-goes-retro-with-crt-based-classic-tv/tv3.jpg

new crt by lg, korean only release

stargate

08-31-2011, 07:46 PM

On a related note, I have a beautiful 36" Sony Trinitron CRT with stand in GREAT shape. This is the mack daddy of TV's for classic gaming. $75 if you can come pick her up in Chicopee MA.

Jorpho

08-31-2011, 10:49 PM

The real problem is the tube itself. The phosphor coating inside the tube breaks down with use (not sure if the same happens with age), and the picture will increasingly get more dim and blurry, and the color gets weaker. There's no way to repair that.Don't forget good old fashioned burn-in. It's astonishing that even later arcade cabs like House of the Dead 3 still hadn't figured out some way of avoiding that.

It feels like it's been ages since I last heard of someone gushing over a screen saver. Well, Electric Sheep doesn't really count.

kedawa

09-01-2011, 05:30 AM

If all those modern features are too much for you, LG has included an extremely retro feature: the ability to watch TV in black and white or sepia.The sepia tone thing is new, but I have never owned any television, CRT or LCD, that couldn't be made to display in b&w. All it takes is turning the colour setting to its lowest position.

stonic

09-01-2011, 07:37 AM

Don't forget good old fashioned burn-in. It's astonishing that even later arcade cabs like House of the Dead 3 still hadn't figured out some way of avoiding that.

That problem isn't exclusive to CRTs. Plasma TVs are also susceptible to burn-in, and LCDs can get what's called image retention (which usually isn't permanent, but with some sets, it is).

There are ways to prevent it (color-cycling, moving images, or blanking the screen), it's just that most designers don't take it into consideration. Probably b/c most companies still believe a game's "lifespan" is in months, rather than years, or even decades, as is the case with classic games now. Screensavers used to be a popular solution for PCs, but most users these days configure them to automatically turn off the monitor off (or blank the video output) if left idle.

Up until the Atari VCS/2600 system came out, burn-in was a problem that plagued all systems. Atari touted the VCS as having "advanced circuitry" to prevent burn-in, which was marketing b.s. since there's no special circuitry in the VCS for that. Rather, the software programmers included code in the games to cycle the colors if the game was left idle. By the early 80s, most programmers left this code out, as it took up valuable space (bytes) that could be used for the game itself. I think Atari's 8-bit hardware platforms (400/800/5200, etc) actually had circuitry to handle the color-cycling, but then again I've seen some games where it doesn't, and ones where it takes longer to kick in, so if there's circuitry in there, that might be something that programmers can affect.

Leo_A

09-01-2011, 05:45 PM

That problem isn't exclusive to CRTs. Plasma TVs are also susceptible to burn-in, and LCDs can get what's called image retention (which usually isn't permanent, but with some sets, it is).

Plasmas can get image retention (Sometimes known image persistence) as well. Watch something like an academy ratio movie on a plasma and you'll probably have to view several hours of normal widescreen programming afterwards to get rid of the ghost of the pillarboxing, for instance.

It's the primary reason I've avoided plasmas. I watch so many academy ratio movies and 4:3 television shows that the temporary image retention would quickly lead to burn-in after a few weeks thanks to the pillarboxing, I bet, even with today's plasma technology that is more resistant to burn-in.

At the university that I received my MBA at, there were several LCD monitors that had suffered permanent IR and had what looked just like CRT or plasma burn-in of the log on screens since the pixels had permanently became stuck.

BetaWolf47

09-11-2011, 09:01 PM

On a related note, I have a beautiful 36" Sony Trinitron CRT with stand in GREAT shape. This is the mack daddy of TV's for classic gaming. $75 if you can come pick her up in Chicopee MA.

I can't imagine a 40" CRT. My 36" Trinition (named simply, "The Beast") nearly killed me the 3 times I had to move her and took up an unholy amount of floor space. When I listed it on CL, I actually tried to talk the buyer out of buying it. I was like, "do you know what this thing is, do you have any idea what you are getting yourself in to?" She showed up with her grandfather to move it and the poor bastard took a shitter when we were loading it in his truck. The Beast nearly claimed another victim.

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/b/be/Ackbar.jpg

stargate

09-11-2011, 11:18 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by stargate
On a related note, I have a beautiful 36" Sony Trinitron CRT with stand in GREAT shape. This is the mack daddy of TV's for classic gaming. $75 if you can come pick her up in Chicopee MA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stargate
I can't imagine a 40" CRT. My 36" Trinition (named simply, "The Beast") nearly killed me the 3 times I had to move her and took up an unholy amount of floor space. When I listed it on CL, I actually tried to talk the buyer out of buying it. I was like, "do you know what this thing is, do you have any idea what you are getting yourself in to?" She showed up with her grandfather to move it and the poor bastard took a shitter when we were loading it in his truck. The Beast nearly claimed another victim.

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/b/be/Ackbar.jpg

Not sure what you are getting at here. Some gamers like the bigger CRT's for classic gaming. I personally got sick of dealing with their weight and size and decided that smaller, for me, was better. But I certainly wasn't trying to screw anyone over by selling it. I mean $75 for a mint 36" Trinitron is a very good deal.