U.S. Sonic with UPC sells for $981.33

[The Coop]

So because it's PAL doesn't that mean that it won't play on an American console or television set? I never got into imports.

It plays fine (I own a PAL version). Most Master System games were never optimized for PAL regions, so they run on NTSC systems without any issues. Some get a bit glitchy, and I believe some were adjusted for PAL settings, the considerable majority were just the same NTSC game in a PAL box.

[Aussie2B]

So because it's PAL doesn't that mean that it won't play on an American console or television set? I never got into imports.

It's kind of a misnomer to throw around "PAL" in this topic, but it's basically used interchangeably with "European". A genuine PAL game won't play on a US NTSC system (under normal circumstances), so you're correct about that. With systems like Master System, NGPC, DS, PSP, etc. there is no regional difference/lockout between American and European games. They all play just fine.

[The 1 2 P]

Only if you paid hundreds of dollars for them.

Oh I've paid wayyyyyyyy more than a hundred dollars for my demo collection, including a lot for over $200(but after selling all the extras I made out). But for one specific demo(which is what I assume you were talking about)? I haven't done that yet.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

So because it's PAL doesn't that mean that it won't play on an American console or television set? I never got into imports.

Unlike a lot of other PAL/NTSC format software most Sega Master System games play fine between regions.

Sonic is one of them, otherwise, it would have been silly for Sega to sell it at retail in the US.

[Orion Pimpdaddy]

\Then again, I collect demo disc, which are essentially incomplete video games. So I'm sure that is just as silly/ridiculous to people that don't collect them.

That's interesting. Do you have any trouble finding those? I've bought a few over the years, but only because some of them have unreleased games on them.

[The 1 2 P]

I only have trouble finding the rarer ones, as expected. But the commons are a dime a dozen.

[Snapple]

Having just read through this thread, I'd like to not contribute to the flames of war.

I think wally made a good sale, and good for him getting a lot of money. For the guy who bought the game, I think he incredibly overpaid, but hopefully he's happy and ignorance is bliss.

Need to now put a German UPC sticker on my copy of Duck Hunt and sell it as a one of a kind.

[Emperor Megas]

Oh I've paid wayyyyyyyy more than a hundred dollars for my demo collection, including a lot for over $200(but after selling all the extras I made out). But for one specific demo(which is what I assume you were talking about)? I haven't done that yet.I just meant for a single one. Paying several hundred for a collection I think is reasonable.

Like many here have said though, if everyone involved in the Sonic transaction is happy, I don't see anything wrong with it. Certainly extreme, but different strokes I guess.

[ifkz]

So, is this a fluke? What is the "normal" price this game, UPC sticker+complete usually brings at auction? Has it gotten that rare over the years?

Last time I saw this mentioned it was $500. I thought it was insane when prices mentioned were $200 and then $300.

I remember there were a couple other SMS releases with the UPC, Spider-man and Strider. I take it those have not really kept up with the resale price of this particular release.

Nearly a grand is Stadium Events, NWC, Mega Drive Tetris, and NEO GEO AES territory (as I understand it).

Please, educate me.

[theclaw]

It's not a fluke. The Sonic STICKER is that phenomenally rare.

Sole aspect which multiples an ultra common Europe release with identical contents from ~$2 territory, going by UK ebay complete prices, well over a hundred times.

If for any reason this recent buyer's UPC gets defaced or the box lost... They've thrown 800 bucks down the drain.

[Bojay1997]

It's not a fluke. The Sonic STICKER is that phenomenally rare.

Sole aspect which multiples an ultra common Europe release with identical contents from ~$2 territory, going by UK ebay complete prices, well over a hundred times.

If for any reason this recent buyer's UPC gets defaced or the box lost... They've thrown 800 bucks down the drain.

That's an interesting point. What happens when the adhesive completely dries up and the UPC is no longer attached to the box? I don't think a sticker of any kind will remain sticky for more than 15-20 years at the most.

[TonyTheTiger]

That's an interesting point. What happens when the adhesive completely dries up and the UPC is no longer attached to the box? I don't think a sticker of any kind will remain sticky for more than 15-20 years at the most.

Glue.

Though I would wonder what would happen if somebody tried to sell the sticker separately. The situation is especially strange because there seems to be a disconnect between what part of the game is valuable vs. what actually makes it an American release. If any part of the game gets lost/damaged you can replace it with its European counterpart and it would be all better. So what actually makes it American? Logically speaking, you could remove the UPC sticker from the "American" game, glue it to a European copy, and now you magically swapped their regions.

You could never get away with doing this with anything else. Try replacing a lost Panzer Dragoon Saga manual with the Japanese equivalent and see what happens.

I have no problem with people valuing the sticker for whatever it is they think it's worth. But I'd more closely consider it something like memorabilia than an actual indicator of any kind of regional distinction. I just can't understand how a UPC sticker could have that much power. It is positively voodoo logic.

Hell, NISA, through Rosenqueen, sold a Japanese statuette in the Mana Khemia premium box. Are we going to value the shipping labels or invoices as proof it is an "American" version as opposed to the common Japanese one? What makes this particular UPC special while the countless other examples don't hold up to the same?

I don't care if the UPC is worth $900. I don't care if it's worth $9,000. Good for the sellers and buyers. But I do care about the wild inconsistency. If a UPC sticker makes Sonic an American game then there are plenty of other "American" releases that also deserve recognition as such.

[jonebone]

I honestly see this as being no different than collecting sealed games wherein you're practically paying premium for a plastic wrapper. It's about as easy to fake as a upc and you're taking the same risks.


Well it's not the same, unless there is a grading authority on Sonic stickers.

With comics, cards, coins, and sealed games, there is a clear grading authority that authenticates items as legit. It makes buying and selling easy.

It's one thing to make a fake that is convincing in pics. It is another to make a fake that fools a collector when the item is in hand. And it is yet another to make a fake that fools a reputable grading service with experience on hundreds of thousands of items, specifically created to catch fakes.

Sealed collectors have that extra layer of protection when in doubt, SMS sonic collectors are every man-for-themself.

[LimitedEditionMuseum]

I dont understand why people say people are crazy or dumb for spending that much cash on a "game". We ALL get criticized constantly for spending hundreds or thousands on regular games. We all do what we want with our money, some people just have more. we oogle over a guy with every single game from a systen or thousands of games in general but THIS on crazy?

[TonyTheTiger]

I dont understand why people say people are crazy or dumb for spending that much cash on a "game". We ALL get criticized constantly for spending hundreds or thousands on regular games. We all do what we want with our money, some people just have more. we oogle over a guy with every single game from a systen or thousands of games in general but THIS on crazy?

It's not the money that's crazy. It's the cherry picking over what constitutes a meaningful distinction between regional releases. Why can't people who were lucky enough to snag Radiant Silvergun from GameStop pass off the price sticker or receipt as proof they own the uber rare U.S. version? If Sonic is any indication they should have that same luxury.

Sonic proves none of us can buy Mexican Coke in America. Because all bottles of Mexican Coke I've bought have had a very American nutritional information sticker applied to them. I guess it's American Coke with sugar courtesy of the FDA.

[Bojay1997]

I dont understand why people say people are crazy or dumb for spending that much cash on a "game". We ALL get criticized constantly for spending hundreds or thousands on regular games. We all do what we want with our money, some people just have more. we oogle over a guy with every single game from a systen or thousands of games in general but THIS on crazy?

Well, speaking only for myself, my video game collection is not the center of my life nor is it the lens through which I view other things in the world, despite the fact that I spend quite a bit of time and money on it. As such, I still apply certain limits in my own spending for what I consider to be reasonable or worth spending a premium to obtain.

This is one of the items where I would never in a million years seek it out or pay any sort of premium for it. To me it really is not a significant enough variation to spend any premium for, especially since it literally is a tiny little UPC sticker that will eventually peel off and doesn't even necessarily seem to be something Sega applied, but rather their authorized distributor. There are other similar items like the various Nintendo competition cartridges or Stadium Events where to me personally, there isn't enough nostalgia value to make it worth anywhere near the values being assigned by other collectors. Having said that, it only takes two people to make a market, so as long as the buyer and seller are happy and there are other interested buyers should this buyer decide to recoup his investment down the road, it has zero impact on my life and I have nothing but positive thoughts for everyone involved.

[ifkz]

As an owner of one of these, the glue on the back is not that type...it seems to have bonded/warped the plastic cover over the years. I would even go so far to say that if it was lifting, it would be a fake. It would also be a fake if it was attached to the inner paper sleeve.


That's an interesting point. What happens when the adhesive completely dries up and the UPC is no longer attached to the box? I don't think a sticker of any kind will remain sticky for more than 15-20 years at the most.

[fluid_matrix]

As an owner of one of these, the glue on the back is not that type...it seems to have bonded/warped the plastic cover over the years. I would even go so far to say that if it was lifting, it would be a fake. It would also be a fake if it was attached to the inner paper sleeve.

It is warping the plastic because the adhesive has shrunk over the years. I was part owner of a local sign business, and know that over time, the adhesive will eventually fail and/or shrink.

[Aussie2B]

I don't care if the UPC is worth $900. I don't care if it's worth $9,000. Good for the sellers and buyers. But I do care about the wild inconsistency. If a UPC sticker makes Sonic an American game then there are plenty of other "American" releases that also deserve recognition as such.

Yeah, I hope nobody takes my questioning as me insulting those who would buy this. If the buyer and seller are happy, then that's great. Whether this truly deserves to be considered a US release or not, it can still be valuable regardless just as a rare collectible and for its historical value. The interested parties will determine just how much its value should be.

But, yeah, there is definitely a huge inconsistency, and it's a shame that more people in this topic aren't taking interest in the subject of what constitutes a US release. To be honest, we have to accept, as a video game collecting community, many, if not all, of us make buying decisions based upon information that the community has already established (I know I'll be more excited to find a game if it has a rarity of 5+). I can guarantee that a lot of people that are desperate for this "US" Master System Sonic only want it because they've read that it's a US release and thus they need it for their set. If collectors came to the conclusion that it actually doesn't deserve to be considered a real US release, which would place it in line with just about every other game that's been in a similar scenario, then I'm positive that many of those collectors seeking a full set would then decide that they don't need it (or just import one from Europe).

[Gameguy]

Yeah, I hope nobody takes my questioning as me insulting those who would buy this. If the buyer and seller are happy, then that's great. Whether this truly deserves to be considered a US release or not, it can still be valuable regardless just as a rare collectible and for its historical value. The interested parties will determine just how much its value should be.

But, yeah, there is definitely a huge inconsistency, and it's a shame that more people in this topic aren't taking interest in the subject of what constitutes a US release.
To me a game has to be specifically designed packaging wise for use in a specific region for it to be considered a release for that region, having leftover or unsold stock shipped to another country shouldn't count as though it was an official release for that region unless there was a noticable change made to the packaging. European copies of SMS games were distributed in Canada, these aren't considered to be Canadian versions, they're described as European copies which were sold in Canada. Even with NES games while there are Canadian releases which are different from US ones, most are the same as US copies which were just brought for sale into Canada. These are never considered to be Canadian releases even though they were sold at retail in Canada.

I guess it's thought of the same way as the Caltron and Myriad carts though they're literally the same game only one has another sticker added to it, though the Myriad version had a different box made for it so it's more than a minor difference. I get that rarer variants can be worth more but there's a very big difference in value with copies of this Sonic game for the SMS while there's no major difference with the games themselves.

[D_N_G]

After purchasing Sonic US version from Clint Dyer's getting out of the hobby sale, and with only a small amount of effort at the time, was able to procure multiple rolls of the exact sticker stock used for the sms barcodes. With a production label printer these can be reproduced without flaw/easily faked. This is dangerous territory moreso than box and manual repros, aside from chemical analysis of the ink composition there is no way to tell the difference.

[SpaceFlea]

The most similar instance would probably be the Dreamcast games released in Canada that come with an additional French manual sealed to the back of the case. You have the manual, it's Canadian; you lose the manual, it's US. And in that case, no one even considers the Canadian versions to be North American variants because it's "just an extra manual". It's certainly a double standard.

It doesn't matter to me either way; I just wish we could decide and make it "official" so when I purchase it I'll know how to list it in my catalog. :)

[Emperor Megas]

I dont understand why people say people are crazy or dumb for spending that much cash on a "game". We ALL get criticized constantly for spending hundreds or thousands on regular games. We all do what we want with our money, some people just have more. we oogle over a guy with every single game from a systen or thousands of games in general but THIS on crazy?Yeah, I can't say that I've ever been called 'crazy' or 'dumb' for playing or collecting video games. Not by anyone I know, or whose opinion would make the slightest bit of difference to me anyway. And I certainly don't oogle over/care about/appreciate/ anyone amassing a complete set of games for ANY game system, or thousands of games for that matter.

I'm a gamer with a collection of games (because I rarely sell any of my acquisitions), not a collector with a gaming interest. I have a feeling there are as many if not more people like me in this hobby than those who can appreciate someone paying an astronomical amount of money for a sticker that it's anyone's guess is even real*.

Again, I'm glad that everyone made out (assuming the transaction is smooth), but I DO think it's a little nuts for someone (who's not considerable wealthy) to pay almost a $1000.00 for a sticker. Of course, I don't think anything's wrong with being a little nuts sometimes, so it's still all good.

*FTR, I'm absolutely not accusing the selling of being dishonest. I'm just saying that games get bought and sold a lot, and it's anyone's guess what the game went through prior to a (re)seller acquiring it.

[TonyTheTiger]

To be honest, we have to accept, as a video game collecting community, many, if not all, of us make buying decisions based upon information that the community has already established (I know I'll be more excited to find a game if it has a rarity of 5+). I can guarantee that a lot of people that are desperate for this "US" Master System Sonic only want it because they've read that it's a US release and thus they need it for their set. If collectors came to the conclusion that it actually doesn't deserve to be considered a real US release, which would place it in line with just about every other game that's been in a similar scenario, then I'm positive that many of those collectors seeking a full set would then decide that they don't need it (or just import one from Europe).

Exactly. The whole thing is cyclical. The value increases because people believe it's a U.S. release. And now that it's so valuable, in order to maintain that value the belief that it actually is a U.S. release has to continue.

Because the community operates like that, with certain facts being based on either a definitive source or collective consensus, I think it's slightly irresponsible to make distinctions between things that shouldn't be in different categories or group unlike things together. Because, let's face it, if anybody reading this thread has a copy of Radiant Silvergun with a GameStop price sticker still on it then they have plenty reason to be pissed off. Imagine how much an elusive U.S. copy of Radiant Silvergun would fetch.

I think that's really the issue here. If we call a spade a spade and say Sonic is a European game that saw some copies sold in America then nothing really changes. But if we continue to hold to this fantasy that the UPC sticker makes it an American game then the ramifications of that are so unbelievably far reaching. Because, following all logic and reason, all of a sudden a bunch of release lists for other consoles are suddenly incomplete.

[ifkz]

I wish someone who ordered one of these from Sega of America would chime in on this thread. Was it mail order only? Was it ever distributed to retailers?

I think the justification for this being a US release was that Sega sold it themselves, probably through their 'Sega Visions' mag. I bet it was released just to provide a couple more games for the Power Base Converter they were trying to sell (along with the redesigned -freakin' rare- US SMS II). This is all just a guess.

The community works as best it can given limited information from people that ordered or worked for gaming companies during these eras. If the parent company in the territory did not release it, it doesn't count...unless it was a well known pirate game...I think...or something...

I wonder what collectors think of the homebrew games nowadays. Do those count towards complete collections, or? Or reproduced vintage prototypes like Earthbound NES, or Starfox 2 SNES. It all probably drives some collectors nuts. Me, I love anything new for these systems to play, especially if I can get it going on original hardware.

[Aussie2B]

Most collectors wouldn't consider homebrews and repros part of a set. It would be never-ending for one, and some repros are one-of-a-kind, made by and for the owner.

As was pointed out earlier, for an imported game to be distributed and sold in major retail chains, it would have to get authorization from the publisher, so all of the many previous examples are no different from SMS Sonic. Except those aren't considered actual US releases by the game collecting community. And, in at least some of those examples, the games/game-related items were indeed distributed by the parent company as well, if that matters any.

[TonyTheTiger]

I think the justification for this being a US release was that Sega sold it themselves, probably through their 'Sega Visions' mag.

But it doesn't matter because, unless we're talking gray market importers, regardless of who does the actual selling the publisher has to approve it. So what's the difference between Sega selling Sonic direct or Sega/ESP approving Radiant Silvergun distribution through GameStop? The entity doing the actual selling doesn't really matter. Otherwise we'd be distinguishing between GameStop copies and Best Buy copies of games.

[mikesides]

Here's a couple ads from Sega Visions Magazine.
Ad #1 is from Fall 1991. Sonic is coming soon.
Ad #2 is from Dec 1991/Jan 1992. Sonic is here. Buy it at your local retailer or call 1-800-USA-SEGA.

[Sunnyvale]

Here's a couple ads from Sega Visions Magazine.
Ad #1 is from Fall 1991. Sonic is coming soon.
Ad #2 is from Dec 1991/Jan 1992. Sonic is here. Buy it at your local retailer or call 1-800-USA-SEGA.

Calling now... Do they take credit cards?

[98PaceCar]

As was pointed out earlier, for an imported game to be distributed and sold in major retail chains, it would have to get authorization from the publisher, so all of the many previous examples are no different from SMS Sonic. Except those aren't considered actual US releases by the game collecting community. And, in at least some of those examples, the games/game-related items were indeed distributed by the parent company as well, if that matters any.

I think the difference with Sonic is that it was given a specific SKU for distribution here where the others were simply imported and sold. The assignment of that SKU gives some credibility to there being an actual decision made to sell it as a US product which would imply at least some involvement on the part of Sega. Otherwise, why go to the trouble of giving it a unique code in the US marketplace?

While the evidence that this was actually released as a US product is thin, I've seen no evidence that proves it wasn't released here. I think this is a prime time to apply Occam's Razor and go with the evidence that it was actually released here, albeit in very limited numbers.

The thing I find odd is that the other SMS releases that are in the exact same boat (Spiderman, Strider, and I *think* Super Monaco GP) don't generate the same intense arguments as Sonic. Perhaps due to the fact that they are more readily available? I've found that a lot of collectors are willing to "cut corners" when it comes to the ultra-rare stuff. My gut is that happens so that it's possible to "finish" within the constraints of what most normal collectors work with (i.e., inability or unwillingness to pay over xx dollars for a single game or refusal to use eBay, etc).

[TonyTheTiger]

I think the difference with Sonic is that it was given a specific SKU for distribution here where the others were simply imported and sold. The assignment of that SKU gives some credibility to there being an actual decision made to sell it as a US product which would imply at least some involvement on the part of Sega. Otherwise, why go to the trouble of giving it a unique code in the US marketplace?

For the convenience of retailers to be able to log it into their systems. Not too different from how foreign foods get a Nutritional Facts label slapped on because of FDA regulations. I don't see how adding it changes what the item actually is, though. Obviously they intended to sell it to Americans. That much is true. And of course it was released here. But it was European stock that they released. How does the haphazard addition of a sticker keep it from remaining a European item? Again, does Mexican Coke become a distinctly American product when it gets the nutrition sticker?

And why does Sega applying a barcode so a stores could easily sell it make Sonic a U.S. game while Sega/ESP allowing GameStop to sell Radiant Silvergun not do the same thing? GameStop applies a price sticker, prints a receipt, etc., with the explicit permission from the publisher. A GameStop receipt that says "Radiant Silvergun" on it would be at least as legitimate proof as a UPC sticker. If Sonic is a U.S. game then somebody who has Radiant Silvergun with a GameStop receipt is in his full right to sell them together on Ebay as "U.S. version."

For me it it's less about Sonic being a U.S. game than it is about why everything else in a similar situation isn't. It's really just an issue of equality. People can call Sonic a U.S. game because of the UPC code if they want but if they do I'm going to ask they call a lot of other things U.S. releases, too. But of course that would piss people off since now everybody with a complete U.S. Saturn collection has to go hunt down some elusive Radiant Silvergun from GameStop.

[Aussie2B]

I think the difference with Sonic is that it was given a specific SKU for distribution here where the others were simply imported and sold. The assignment of that SKU gives some credibility to there being an actual decision made to sell it as a US product which would imply at least some involvement on the part of Sega. Otherwise, why go to the trouble of giving it a unique code in the US marketplace?

While the evidence that this was actually released as a US product is thin, I've seen no evidence that proves it wasn't released here. I think this is a prime time to apply Occam's Razor and go with the evidence that it was actually released here, albeit in very limited numbers.

The thing I find odd is that the other SMS releases that are in the exact same boat (Spiderman, Strider, and I *think* Super Monaco GP) don't generate the same intense arguments as Sonic. Perhaps due to the fact that they are more readily available? I've found that a lot of collectors are willing to "cut corners" when it comes to the ultra-rare stuff. My gut is that happens so that it's possible to "finish" within the constraints of what most normal collectors work with (i.e., inability or unwillingness to pay over xx dollars for a single game or refusal to use eBay, etc).

Nobody is arguing that it wasn't "released" here in the sense of it being available for purchase. The argument is if it's simply a foreign product redistributed elsewhere or if it's a legit US release. The evidence that it's not an actual US product/release is as clear as day. It's the exact same product that was created for Europe, from the exact same manufacturing lines. Then some random crate of those European copies was picked out, shipped off to the US, had stickers slapped on, and *poof* it's magically a US release?

Honestly, if the collecting community wants to consider that enough to constitute a US release, I'm fine with that, but, like TonyTheTiger pointed out, there would then be LOTS of games and other game-related products that need to be considered as US releases which currently aren't.

And I'm sure those other games, of those that were sold in retail chains, had unique barcodes (and thus SKUs) too. How else would a store like GameStop or EB ring up a copy of Radiant Silvergun or Shenmue II and have it recognized by the system? I doubt they were putting in a price manually. We're not talking little independent game stores here that can unofficially import whatever stuff they feel like. For a major chain, authorization from the publisher is a must, as is some form of identification for the product. So we got involvement from the publisher and a SKU, making those games no different from SMS Sonic.

As for collectors "cutting corners", that's definitely not a concern of mine. My collection of SMS games is very small, and I'm not pursuing a full set. I'm not much of a full set collector in general. I would make the exact same argument just as strongly for Spiderman, Strider, and Super Monaco GP, and if I was collecting a full set, I wouldn't consider any of them necessary (or if I wanted to include games distributed in the US, European copies would suffice just as well since it's the exact same product). In the end, my primary concern is good information being available to the community, and I think this is one area that definitely needs some improvement as it's currently very inconsistent.

[98PaceCar]

For the convenience of retailers to be able to log it into their systems. Not too different from how foreign foods get a Nutritional Facts label slapped on because of FDA regulations. I don't see how adding it changes what the item actually is, though. Obviously they intended to sell it to Americans. That much is true. And of course it was released here. But it was European stock that they released. How does the haphazard addition of a sticker keep it from remaining a European item? Again, does Mexican Coke become a distinctly American product when it gets the nutrition sticker?

And why does Sega applying a barcode so a stores could easily sell it make Sonic a U.S. game while Sega/ESP allowing GameStop to sell Radiant Silvergun not do the same thing? GameStop applies a price sticker, prints a receipt, etc. If Sonic is a U.S. game then somebody who has Radiant Silvergun with a GameStop receipt is in his full right to sell them together on Ebay as "U.S. version."

For me it it's less about Sonic being a U.S. game than it is about why everything else in a similar situation isn't. It's really just an issue of equality. People can call Sonic a U.S. game because of the UPC code if they want but if they do I'm going to ask they call a lot of other things U.S. releases, too.

Regarding Radiant Silvergun, did gamestop apply a price barcode or did ESP give it a unique SKU? There's a difference in my mind, though that likely comes from working with a manufactuing company and having at least a cursory understanding of the whys and hows of product coding. I'm not sure how I would look at it if it received a full SKU or if I ran across a copy with supporting documents. It's not a rare game, so I think my opinion of it would not change.

[TonyTheTiger]

Regarding Radiant Silvergun, did gamestop apply a price barcode or did ESP give it a unique SKU? There's a difference in my mind, though that likely comes from working with a manufactuing company and having at least a cursory understanding of the whys and hows of product coding. I'm not sure how I would look at it if it received a full SKU or if I ran across a copy with supporting documents.

Well, Radiant Silvergun actually has a barcode on the spine card so applying a special sticker ala Sonic probably wasn't necessary. Does the fact that the barcode was already there and thus didn't need a haphazard sticker suddenly eject it from an official U.S. release list? Does Sonic get the benefit because of the dumb luck of not having a UPC while Radiant Silvergun is S.O.L. because it did?


It's not a rare game, so I think my opinion of it would not change.

Neither is Sonic. The barcode sticker is what's rare. And in the case of Radiant Silvergun, the GameStop related stickers/paperwork/etc. would be rare.

[98PaceCar]

Nobody is arguing that it wasn't "released" here in the sense of it being available for purchase. The argument is if it's simply a foreign product redistributed elsewhere or if it's a legit US release. The evidence that it's not an actual US product/release is as clear as day. It's the exact same product that was created for Europe, from the exact same manufacturing lines. Then some random crate of those European copies was picked out, shipped off to the US, had stickers slapped on, and *poof* it's magically a US release?

Honestly, if the collecting community wants to consider that enough to constitute a US release, I'm fine with that, but, like TonyTheTiger pointed out, there would then be LOTS of games and other game-related products that need to be considered as US releases which currently aren't.

And I'm sure those other games, of those that were sold in retail chains, had unique barcodes (and thus SKUs) too. How else would a store like GameStop or EB ring up a copy of Radiant Silvergun or Shenmue II and have it recognized by the system? I doubt they were putting in a price manually. We're not talking little independent game stores here that can unofficially import whatever stuff they feel like. For a major chain, authorization from the publisher is a must, as is some form of identification for the product. So we got involvement from the publisher and a SKU, making those games no different from SMS Sonic.

As for collectors "cutting corners", that's definitely not a concern of mine. My collection of SMS games is very small, and I'm not pursuing a full set. I'm not much of a full set collector in general. I would make the exact same argument just as strongly for Spiderman, Strider, and Super Monaco GP, and if I was collecting a full set, I wouldn't consider any of them necessary (or if I wanted to include games distributed in the US, European copies would suffice just as well since it's the exact same product). In the end, my primary concern is good information being available to the community, and I think this is one area that definitely needs some improvement as it's currently very inconsistent.

Outside of Radiant Silvergun and Shenmue 2, what other titles fall into this category? It seems the blister packed NGP games are all considered US releases (even the ones that don't have boxes). I've never heard the other barcoded SMS games argued aginst, but again, they are all easy to acquire with barcode intact.

[98PaceCar]

Well, Radiant Silvergun actually has a barcode on the spine card so applying a special sticker ala Sonic probably wasn't necessary. Does the fact that the barcode was already there and thus didn't need a haphazard sticker suddenly eject it from an official U.S. release list? Does Sonic get the benefit because of the dumb luck of not having a UPC while Radiant Silvergun is S.O.L.

Actually, in my mind, the use of the japanese SKU does make it different. In effect, Sonic has a US part number where Radiant does not. The upc on the SMS games is applied over the Euro upc, in effect, changing the part number and making it distinct.

[TonyTheTiger]

Outside of Radiant Silvergun and Shenmue 2, what other titles fall into this category? It seems the blister packed NGP games are all considered US releases (even the ones that don't have boxes). I've never heard the other barcoded SMS games argued aginst, but again, they are all easy to acquire with barcode intact.

I just argue for consistency. $500 game or $5 game, it won't affect whether or not I think it's a U.S. game. I'm not well versed in SMS but if there are other European games that got a UPC sticker and sold in America then I wouldn't consider them U.S. games either.


Actually, in my mind, the use of the japanese SKU does make it different. In effect, Sonic has a US part number where Radiant does not. The upc on the SMS games is applied over the Euro upc, in effect, changing the part number and making it distinct.

I'm just assuming they used the Japanese barcode. I have no idea myself. But even if they did, I don't see the logic with that distinction. At best it makes it a variant, not the product of a different region. They all came from the same place and were originally manufactured for the same market. And if the application of the UPC makes the European game distinctly American then we could go around swapping stickers around and turn European games into American ones and vice versa without Sega's consent.

[98PaceCar]

I just argue for consistency. $500 game or $5 game, it won't affect whether or not I think it's a U.S. game. I'm not well versed in SMS but if there are other European games that got a UPC sticker and sold in America then I wouldn't consider them U.S. games either.

Consistency is the key and a great goal. My argument is just that it should be handled by part number (SKU) and not just by where it was originally intended for release or based on utilized sales channels alone. The barcoded SMS releases were given specific, different part numbers for release in the US. That is the key difference in why I'm willing to consider them US releases and not Radiant (provided it truly didn't get a special SKU to replace the original Japanese one).

[mikesides]

After purchasing Sonic US version from Clint Dyer's getting out of the hobby sale, and with only a small amount of effort at the time, was able to procure multiple rolls of the exact sticker stock used for the sms barcodes. With a production label printer these can be reproduced without flaw/easily faked. This is dangerous territory moreso than box and manual repros, aside from chemical analysis of the ink composition there is no way to tell the difference.

Maybe you can save us all some money and print some up then! :evil:

[TonyTheTiger]

Consistency is the key and a great goal. My argument is just that it should be handled by part number (SKU) and not just by where it was originally intended for release or based on utilized sales channels alone. The barcoded SMS releases were given specific, different part numbers for release in the US. That is the key difference in why I'm willing to consider them US releases and not Radiant (provided it truly didn't get a special SKU to replace the original Japanese one).

Ok, so then why can't people sell their U.S. Sonic as such if the sticker gets damaged? The part number doesn't change just because of some physical alteration, right?

See, that's the thing. The UPC sticker being the exclusive gatekeeper makes the whole thing meaningless because any one of us could swap stickers, deface stickers, or tear them off. Sega clearly didn't give a shit about it so why should we? The idea that the UPC makes a certain product one thing as opposed to another is great...except here it doesn't work since the UPC code isn't tied to any specific item. Any one of us can start swapping stickers if we were so inclined. And if we can magically swap UPCs 20 years after the fact then it's an illusory distinction. Because if I swap a sticker then all of a sudden the copy that Sega chose to sell as a U.S. game is now European and the "American" game is now one that Sega never intended to be such.

If Sega had printed new inserts with a different barcode then I'd be much more inclined to agree with you on this. But as it stands I don't think Sega pulled any kind of region-swapping sorcery when they stuck a sticker to the outside of the box of a few random copies.

[Aussie2B]

Outside of Radiant Silvergun and Shenmue 2, what other titles fall into this category? It seems the blister packed NGP games are all considered US releases (even the ones that don't have boxes). I've never heard the other barcoded SMS games argued aginst, but again, they are all easy to acquire with barcode intact.

There were several examples of other games given by myself and others previously in this topic.

With the NGPC blister packs, I'd say that's yet another example backing my argument. If I have my details right, this was just extra stock that SNK dumped on a re-distributor back when they were on hard times. The boxes and manuals were discarded, and they got placed in the blister packs. Since some were US games in the first place, games that had been released, they're just considered more of the same. It's not considered a re-release or anything like that. The packs also contained carts manufactured for Europe. These are still considered European carts, despite that they were sold in the blister packs in the US, with unique packaging, no less. I think these blister packs also occasionally contained Faselei and The Last Blade, which were manufactured but never released. Despite their presence in the blister packs, they still aren't considered as having been officially released in the US, but they are considered US versions because they were manufactured with the intent of a US release, hence the ESRB ratings and such.

[mikesides]

\With the NGPC blister packs, I'd say that's yet another example backing my argument. If I have my details right, this was just extra stock that SNK dumped on a re-distributor back when they were on hard times. The boxes and manuals were discarded, and they got placed in the blister packs. Since some were US games in the first place, games that had been released, they're just considered more of the same. It's not considered a re-release or anything like that. The packs also contained carts manufactured for Europe. These are still considered European carts, despite that they were sold in the blister packs in the US, with unique packaging, no less. I think these blister packs also occasionally contained Faselei and The Last Blade, which were manufactured but never released. Despite their presence in the blister packs, they still aren't considered as having been officially released in the US, but they are considered US versions because they were manufactured with the intent of a US release, hence the ESRB ratings and such.

I picked up a bunch of these a few years back at Hastings. I probably ended up with 24 different games or so. Not to mention several different colors of the system itself.

[PapaStu]

Outside of Radiant Silvergun and Shenmue 2, what other titles fall into this category? It seems the blister packed NGP games are all considered US releases (even the ones that don't have boxes). I've never heard the other barcoded SMS games argued aginst, but again, they are all easy to acquire with barcode intact.


This isn't a standard NGPC release. Those were NOS (New old stock) that were depackaged by whomever bought out the NeoGeo stock of systems and games, repackaged in a blister and sold. ALL of those games and systems had US boxes (save Fasalei! and Last Blade, which did NOT release during the time that SNK US was in operation and releasing NGPC games) and looking at those bundles, you'll see MANY MANY 'European' release games. You can easily look at the labels and determine if it's a US or non US released game. Those games, sold here later doesn't make them a US game any more than a standard import sold stateside as a US released game.

[Gameguy]

Well, Radiant Silvergun actually has a barcode on the spine card so applying a special sticker ala Sonic probably wasn't necessary. Does the fact that the barcode was already there and thus didn't need a haphazard sticker suddenly eject it from an official U.S. release list? Does Sonic get the benefit because of the dumb luck of not having a UPC while Radiant Silvergun is S.O.L. because it did?
Sonic did have another barcode already on the insert, they just put another barcode on top of it. I really don't know why they did that instead of just using the existing barcode, is it somehow linked to keeping track of sales figures per region?


Outside of Radiant Silvergun and Shenmue 2, what other titles fall into this category? It seems the blister packed NGP games are all considered US releases (even the ones that don't have boxes). I've never heard the other barcoded SMS games argued aginst, but again, they are all easy to acquire with barcode intact.
Japanese Virtual Boy games were sold at EB Games brand new, they made the games available here because there were so few games released in North America that they couldn't sell off the systems. I don't know if they had special barcode stickers added though, I don't think I ever saw sealed copies of Japanese games in person.

[98PaceCar]

Ok, so then why can't people sell their U.S. Sonic as such if the sticker gets damaged? The part number doesn't change just because of some physical alteration, right?

See, that's the thing. The UPC sticker being the exclusive gatekeeper makes the whole thing meaningless because any one of us could swap stickers, deface stickers, or tear them off. Sega clearly didn't give a shit about it so why should we? The idea that the UPC makes a certain product one thing as opposed to another is great...except here it doesn't work since the UPC code isn't tied to any specific item. Any one of us can start swapping stickers if we were so inclined. And if we can magically swap UPCs 20 years after the fact then it's an illusory distinction. Because if I swap a sticker then all of a sudden the copy that Sega chose to sell as a U.S. game is now European and the "American" game is now one that Sega never intended to be such.

If Sega had printed new inserts with a different barcode then I'd be much more inclined to agree with you on this. But as it stands I don't think Sega pulled any kind of region-swapping sorcery when they stuck a sticker to the outside of the box of a few random copies.

There's no doubt that the method that was chosen to make Sonic a US release is flimsy and easily reproduced, but that doesn't mean that US copies of the game don't exist. In my mind, the fact that a separate part number was chosen, assigned, and attached to the product shows that there was clear intent on the part of someone (presumably Sega themselves) to make this a US product. Considering you can take a Euro game and plug it into a bone stock system and have it work likely made this decision much simpler for them as they could just print up some stickers and suddenly have a "new" product. They also didn't need to worry about things like ESRB ratings and probably even FCC testing. That all makes it much simpler to create a US product out of something originally intended for the US.

When it comes to Radiant, Shenmue, and others, from what I know they were never presented in the marketplace as US games. They were simply Japanese games that you could buy here. I guess what I'm saying is that with Sonic, there was clear intent to make it a US product where with the others, they were simply allowed to be sold here as product from another region.


This isn't a standard NGPC release. Those were NOS (New old stock) that were depackaged by whomever bought out the NeoGeo stock of systems and games, repackaged in a blister and sold. ALL of those games and systems had US boxes (save Fasalei! and Last Blade, which did NOT release during the time that SNK US was in operation and releasing NGPC games) and looking at those bundles, you'll see MANY MANY 'European' release games. You can easily look at the labels and determine if it's a US or non US released game. Those games, sold here later doesn't make them a US game any more than a standard import sold stateside as a US released game.

Faselei! and Last Blade were the 2 I was really referring to, though I suppose the others could be considered variants if you were really masochistic (I don't, but they exist in boxes so that's my preferred state). I don't believe I've ever run across anybody with a full set that didn't have those 2 games in it, but again, they are cheap and easy to attain so why not get them. But in my mind, they were released into the US channels and presented as US games with US part numbers (assigned to the entire blister pack), so they would fall into the definition of a full set.

[TonyTheTiger]

Eh, see this is where I don't mesh with that. You keep pushing the idea of intent but it's precisely that intent that I think is missing here.

What I'm looking for is some evidence that Sega made a specific decision to "create" U.S. copies. A new printed insert or some other kind of identifier tailored to the specific copy would be just that. Sure, you could still pick and mix the internals but at least it would suggest that there was a specific intent to actually create a new edition. In other words, I'm looking for something that tells me that when Sega decided to sell Sonic in America they picked this copy, not a copy. Without that clear intent, the intent to not just sell a copy in America, then I can't jump on board. Look at Gyromite. Sure, some copies are actually Japanese PCBs with a converter inside. But the intent to "create" an American game was there. Sega shows me none of that with Sonic.

What if Squaresoft had started taking extra Final Fantasy VII stock from Japan, stuck a UPC sticker on them, and for whatever reason sold them in America? I think it's crazy to then say that there are two distinct "American" versions where one just happens to be entirely Japanese. Hell, if Sonic did get a legitimate release in addition to this UPC nonsense then I doubt we'd be having this conversation at all. Nobody would ever in a million years consider it an American version.

And let's even go further and say there were two identical copies of a game sold in America but the only difference was a different UPC code because of some backdoor wackiness. Let's say Mortal Kombat II or something had different print runs with different UPC codes. I will bet my ass they would be considered mere variants at best, not two completely different games with both being required for a full set. That alone convinces me the whole thing is crazy.

[98PaceCar]

Eh, see this is where I don't mesh with that. You keep pushing the idea of intent but it's precisely that intent that I think is missing here.

What I'm looking for is some evidence that Sega made a specific decision to "create" U.S. copies. A new printed insert or some other kind of identifier tailored to the specific copy would be just that. Sure, you could still pick and mix the internals but at least it would suggest that there was a specific intent to actually create a new edition. In other words, I'm looking for something that tells me that when Sega decided to sell Sonic in America they picked this copy, not a copy. Without that clear intent, the intent to not just sell a copy in America, then I can't jump on board. Look at Gyromite. Sure, some copies are actually Japanese PCBs with a converter inside. But the intent to "create" an American game was there. Sega shows me none of that with Sonic.

What if Squaresoft had started taking extra Final Fantasy VII stock from Japan, stuck a UPC sticker on them, and for whatever reason sold them in America? I think it's crazy to then say that there are two distinct "American" versions where one just happens to be entirely Japanese. Hell, if Sonic did get a legitimate release in addition to this UPC nonsense then I doubt we'd be having this conversation at all. Nobody would ever in a million years consider it an American version.

And let's even go further and say there were two identical copies of a game sold in America but the only difference was a different UPC code because of some backdoor wackiness. Let's say Mortal Kombat II or something had different print runs with different UPC codes. I will bet my ass they would be considered mere variants at best, not two completely different games with both being required for a full set. That alone convinces me the whole thing is crazy.

As a system, the SMS is somewhat unique in that it doesn't suffer from the normal differences that traditionally separate the same game from multiple regions. Both the US and Euro copies use the same boxes, carts, and insert style. I think most Euro games have multi language manuals where the US are just English (or possibly English/French, depending on Canada, I'm not certain). SMS also doesn't have any kind of NTSC/PAL issues nor does it have concerns with ratings. These facts alone make it very simple for a game to be pulled over and made an official release with little to no effort and more importantly to Sega, little cost.

Given that these are all acknowledged to be late releases when the system was winding down, why would anybody expect any real effort be put into the release of them? I'd suspect it was nothing more than a decision to release some big name games that would likely generate some revenue with the least amount of work. Again, the method they chose doesn't mesh well with what collectors like, but I assure you that was never a factor in their decision. They had stock on hand and it was an easy way to get product into a new market. Least amount of work for the most return.

The Gyromite is not really a good example in my mind as there are physical differences in Japan vs US releases. If they wanted to release it here, they had to make physical changes to the cart. It's not like any kid with an NES could buy a Famicom cart and use it in their NES. So, it did take more effort on the part of Nintendo, but that was due to design issues between the systems. SMS doesn't have that, no lockouts or any other physical or even programming differences exist. It's a plug and play system for cross region games making it simple to use pre-existing stock from a different region.

I firmly believe the reason we are having this discussion is the value of the Euro release over the US release. If the UPC code didn't generate a nearly $1000 price difference, nobody would care. But it does, so here we are. It is tough to get a copy of this that has the limited amount of provenance available, but there are copies out there with the appropriate back story and paperwork (in this case, a UPC on a box). We've also seen at least anecdotal evidence of it being sold in magazine ads posted here as well. That's not total proof, but it lends credibility to the other facts we have. It's certainly an odd release and a hotly contested one, but I see no reason to not believe it should be considered a US release while other games (Radiant, Shenmue, etc) are not.

True, if there are 2 copies of the same game released with different UPC codes, they would be considered variants to most, if not all. But with Sonic, there was no other release of it here to be a variant of. My thoughts on what constitutes a "full set" would be one of each title released for a system in a region. With that definition, Sonic would fit as it was the only released version in the region but I would not need both releases of the proposed MK 2 as they were both sold in the same region.

What ultimately matters is that the buyer and seller are both happy with the transaction. As an SMS collector, I'm jealous of someone that has a legit copy and somewhat bummed knowing that I will likely never have a complete US set due to the fact that I choose to not pay the price it takes for a copy of Sonic with the UPC. But even that doesn't put me in a situation where I'll say it's not a legit release because despite the ambiguity and concerns about it, the evidence tells me that it is a real release.

[TonyTheTiger]

But with Sonic, there was no other release of it here to be a variant of.

It's a variant of the European version. Pretty simple, really. Just because there wasn't another Sonic release doesn't magically make this variant an American copy. That's where I think you're missing the point. You can't cherry pick and say that if MKII had two different UPC codes then they'd just be two American variants but if Sonic gets two UPC codes then one is European and the other is American based solely on the fact that there was no actual American release. That makes no sense.

Besides, if you're saying that the altered UPC code makes it a wholly different release, are you saying the opposite holds true, as well? That if two versions of the same game have the same UPC code then they are the same release? Because that seems to be the gist of your argument against Radiant Silvergun. The UPC codes are the same so it's the same title.

[ifkz]

My 2 cents:

I don't see how anyone could consider a JPN or EU region game imported over here as a USA release because they need converters to play on US region systems. There is no way Sega would have authorized using a 4-1 memory cart on the Saturn or a boot disc on the Dreamcast, that would be Sega basically authorizing piracy since they both have that function in addition to bypassing region lockouts. Gamestop did sell them, sure, I remember them being in stock new. But this was no different than a mom and pop store carrying them.

The SMS had no region lockout, so somewhere Sega saw the need for a couple more games for their dying system and brought over three: Sonic, Strider, and Spider-man. It was easy, no converter was necessary, and they supported what was left of the SMS user base in the USA.

Want another perfect example?

Back in my thrift store days I found two separate copies of Scramble Spirits in the USA imported from Canada for the SMS. I think I even remember a factory outlet selling it new back when the SMS was alive. It is not considered part of the USA region set because it was never officially sold and glitches like crazy when played on a USA system (I guess it is looking for 50Hz vs. 60Hz screen refresh rate). It may be here, but not here in any official capacity.

[TonyTheTiger]

My 2 cents:

I don't see how anyone could consider a JPN or EU region game imported over here as a USA release because they need converters to play on US region systems.

PSP games don't. What if the same scenario happened with the PSP?


There is no way Sega would have authorized using a 4-1 memory cart on the Saturn or a boot disc on the Dreamcast, that would be Sega basically authorizing piracy since they both have that function in addition to bypassing region lockouts. Gamestop did sell them, sure, I remember them being in stock new. But this was no different than a mom and pop store carrying them.

It is highly unlikely a retailer like GameStop would have sold imports without publisher consent. They're just too high profile to take that risk. I obviously don't know the backroom dealings that would have gone on but the odds they would have done it without conferring with the interested parties are near zilch.

I agree with you that a mom & pop selling an import is just that. But GameStop selling an import most certainly creates an air of official distribution.


The SMS had no region lockout, so somewhere Sega saw the need for a couple more games for their dying system and brought over three: Sonic, Strider, and Spider-man. It was easy, no converter was necessary, and they supported what was left of the SMS user base in the USA.

Want another perfect example?

Back in my thrift store days I found two separate copies of Scramble Spirits in the USA imported from Canada for the SMS. I think I even remember a factory outlet selling it new back when the SMS was alive. It is not considered part of the USA region set because it was never officially sold and glitches like crazy when played on a USA system (I guess it is looking for 50Hz vs. 60Hz screen refresh rate). It may be here, but not here in any official capacity.

Just because something is here in official capacity doesn't make it a product of or for that region. That's what I'm trying to get across. Aussie2B mentioned Squaresoft making Japanese merchandise available to Americans through their website. NISA made a Japanese Mana Khemia box set available via preorder through Rosenqueen. It's all here in an official capacity. But they're not American products. I can hop on PSN and download Rockman 3 as a PSOne classic. It's still a Japanese game even though Sony has it on the American PSN.

[Bojay1997]

PSP games don't. What if the same scenario happened with the PSP?



It is highly unlikely a retailer like GameStop would have sold imports without publisher consent. They're just too high profile to take that risk. I obviously don't know the backroom dealings that would have gone on but the odds they would have done it without conferring with the interested parties are near zilch.

I agree with you that a mom & pop selling an import is just that. But GameStop selling an import most certainly creates an air of official distribution.



Just because something is here in official capacity doesn't make it a product of or for that region. That's what I'm trying to get across. Aussie2B mentioned Squaresoft making Japanese merchandise available to Americans through their website. NISA made a Japanese Mana Khemia box set available via preorder through Rosenqueen. It's all here in an official capacity. But they're not American products. I can hop on PSN and download Rockman 3 as a PSOne classic. It's still a Japanese game even though Sony has it on the American PSN.


The same scenario has happened with the PSP. Fry's Electronics sold a number of Japanese titles for the system that were provided by Tommo which is a large distributor. I believe Tommo has also provided imports for region free systems to other retailers including Kmart. There were a couple of European exclusive DS soccer games I saw in their $19.99 dump bins a few weeks back. They all had one generic bargain bin UPC attached to the back over the original barcode.

Having said that, I'm not so sure about Gamestop getting authorization. As a private business, they are free to carry whatever they want to carry. I suspect with Radiant Silvergun, they didn't get permission but Sega really didn't care or simply wasn't in a position to dictate terms given that they needed GS to support the launch of the Dreamcast shortly thereafter. Gamestop sold various region unlock devices for the Saturn, so it seems unlikely that Sega would have also endorsed these products which could have been used for piracy.

In any event, I'm not sure why we are having this whole debate about what constitutes a US release versus any other kind of release. What every collector considers to be part of a "complete" collection is their business. It's an interesting academic debate, but there are way too many gray areas to ever answer this question for everyone and it doesn't matter what the majority concludes, only what the buyers and sellers trading in this particular game decide.

[ifkz]

I think figuring out what is considered a complete set is going to have to be adjusted for a lot of the post 8-bit systems. Back in the SMS and NES days, there was no internet and importing basically meant a kid moved from another country to the US and kept their games. I remember importing really started to take off during the Genesis/SNES days.

But I can see where the lines between regions really start to blur with the 32 bit and beyond systems. I read somewhere that there are JPN exclusive 360 games that nave no region lockouts and are begging to be imported over here.

At least with the 8-bit and under, complete sets are clear and do-able.

EDIT: Maybe someone could update those grungy old FAQs to include a "commonly imported" section during the system lifetime. That would not leave any of these gray area titles out and would provide useful information for future collectors.

[98PaceCar]

It's a variant of the European version. Pretty simple, really. Just because there wasn't another Sonic release doesn't magically make this variant an American copy. That's where I think you're missing the point. You can't cherry pick and say that if MKII had two different UPC codes then they'd just be two American variants but if Sonic gets two UPC codes then one is European and the other is American based solely on the fact that there was no actual American release. That makes no sense.

Besides, if you're saying that the altered UPC code makes it a wholly different release, are you saying the opposite holds true, as well? That if two versions of the same game have the same UPC code then they are the same release? Because that seems to be the gist of your argument against Radiant Silvergun. The UPC codes are the same so it's the same title.

I wouldn't say it's a variant of the Euro release as much as it's a "localized" version of the Euro release for the US market. Fortunately for Sega, all they had to do to create a suitable product for the US was give it a US part number and obscure the Euro part number, which they did via a sticker. I've seen that technique used on other products, so why not this one?

Regarding your MK 2 example, I understood it that they were both released in the US, but with different UPC codes. This happens all the time in Greatest Hits releases, but people consider those to be variants of the main game. Are you saying that there has to be artwork changes in order for it to be a legit release? What percentage has to change? Does the program itself need to change? Where is the line drawn?

Again, there was no reason for Sega to put any sort of effort into showing intent to release this. The system was on it's way out and this was likely just a way to stretch the income from it a bit further with limited expense and effort. They likely had a stack of carts in a warehouse somewhere and decided to sell them here though some retail channel. With Radiant, it was likely more Gamestop that wanted to sell it here than ESP asking them to carry it. Big difference.

[TonyTheTiger]

Having said that, I'm not so sure about Gamestop getting authorization. As a private business, they are free to carry whatever they want to carry. I suspect with Radiant Silvergun, they didn't get permission but Sega really didn't care or simply wasn't in a position to dictate terms given that they needed GS to support the launch of the Dreamcast shortly thereafter. Gamestop sold various region unlock devices for the Saturn, so it seems unlikely that Sega would have also endorsed these products which could have been used for piracy.

I obviously can't say I know for sure what happened but I do know that when something is licensed for a certain territory it means that territory. That's why Capcom had a small crisis over Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter. Americans were importing the game but the Norimaro character was only licensed for Japan and I can only assume somebody yelled at Capcom over it. There can be legal consequences for these things due to contract terms. It may be a stretch but what if some American company had licensed Radiant Silvergun for North American distribution and all of a sudden GameStop is selling the Japanese version to people?

While it's possible GameStop just didn't care I have a hard time imagining that was the case just because of how overly cautious these major retailers tend to be over stuff like that.


In any event, I'm not sure why we are having this whole debate about what constitutes a US release versus any other kind of release. What every collector considers to be part of a "complete" collection is their business. It's an interesting academic debate, but there are way too many gray areas to ever answer this question for everyone and it doesn't matter what the majority concludes, only what the buyers and sellers trading in this particular game decide.

I guess I want to have it because of the chicken and egg problem. Why do people want the UPC sticker? The only apparent reason is because there's a common belief it denotes the game as distinctly American. People didn't just come to this same conclusion independently. It's just common understanding that Sonic + UPC = American game and that idea spreads around like wildfire. If that notion gets dispelled through analysis and comparisons to similar situations then all of a sudden it stops being so sought after. Trust me, I have no interest in telling anybody they paid too much for something and take no joy should the game's value plummet if I end up "winning" the argument and get the game ejected from the U.S. release list.

But at the same time I feel at least a little bad for the people out there who may have bought copies of Japanese games in major American retailers, can prove it, and yet would be laughed at for trying to argue they hold an elusive American copy when Sonic UPC owners are doing essentially the same exact thing. I care not because people are exhanging large sums of money but because the reason people are doing that is based on what I happen to think is misinformation. And if anybody in the community believes something everybody assumes true is actually false then they should speak up about it.


Regarding your MK 2 example, I understood it that they were both released in the US, but with different UPC codes. This happens all the time in Greatest Hits releases, but people consider those to be variants of the main game. Are you saying that there has to be artwork changes in order for it to be a legit release? What percentage has to change? Does the program itself need to change? Where is the line drawn?

I was actually asking you that same question. If a new UPC is enough to make a game distinct from an otherwise identical copy then where is the line drawn? Because there are plenty of situations where a game gets tons of changes but keeps the UPC the same. I'm questioning the weight you're attributing to the different barcode. I think we should just call a spade a spade. If it looks like a duck, ya know? The more we mess around with stuff like the weight of a barcode the more shit we get ourselves into since now we're starting to call two copies of the same game two different things if we want to remain consistent. But then that sounds silly so we have to backpedal and say something like "Well, but it already has a release in America..." and stuff like that. And then we have the reverse where if the barcode is the same across all regions we get to say it's just one game despite whatever other differences there may be.

Just the fact that the argument in support of Sonic UPC has to go into something so convoluted to justify itself should be enough to prove it's not actually an American game. The simplest solution is often the right one. And it's far simpler to say Sonic is a European game that saw some American distribution than to say it is an American game and over here are all kinds of wild independent justifications for why this isn't a separate game or this isn't an American copy, each with their own loopholes.


Again, there was no reason for Sega to put any sort of effort into showing intent to release this. The system was on it's way out and this was likely just a way to stretch the income from it a bit further with limited expense and effort. They likely had a stack of carts in a warehouse somewhere and decided to sell them here though some retail channel.

I can't help but read this as actually supporting my position. "Hey, we're not making much money in America anymore but we got some overstock of Sonic games across the pond. May as well pawn 'em off, right?" That doesn't sound like "European game sold in America" to you?


With Radiant, it was likely more Gamestop that wanted to sell it here than ESP asking them to carry it. Big difference.

But, no, because if that's the case then many localized games handled by somebody other than the original publisher wouldn't count as an American game. I'm pretty sure Working Designs sought out Lunar, for instance. Game Arts didn't ask them to sell it here, either. It doesn't matter who approaches who. What matters is whether or not there is an agreement among all interested parties. There is literally no legal difference (in terms of what we're arguing) between a scenario where ESP asks GameStop to sell Radiant Silvergun or GameStop asking ESP for permission to sell Radiant Silvergun.

[98PaceCar]

But at the same time I feel at least a little bad for the people out there who may have bought copies of Japanese games in major American retailers, can prove it, and yet would be laughed at for trying to argue they hold an elusive American copy when Sonic UPC owners are doing essentially the same exact thing. I care not because people are exhanging large sums of money but because the reason people are doing that is based on what I happen to think is misinformation. And if anybody in the community believes something everybody assumes true is actually false then they should speak up about it.

All things purchased are buyer beware and this is a case where buyers should be very careful when spending their money, no doubt about that.

I present my side as such:

1. The game was sold in the US as evidenced by magazine ads and a few copies showing up with the appropriate documentation (the UPC).

2. The game was given a unique UPC which covered the Euro UPC, thus making it a distinct product from the Euro version.

Those 2 facts are enough to lead me to believe that the game was released in the US, even if it was in small numbers.

What are the facts that cause you to believe it was not in fact released here?

(ahk, you caught me with a ninja edit, more coming later)

[TonyTheTiger]

All things purchased are buyer beware and this is a case where buyers should be very careful when spending their money, no doubt about that.

No doubt. I'm not saying I feel anybody is entitled to any monetary compensation. But I do think equal things deserve to be treated equally. And I find calling Sonic UPC an American game but calling Radiant Silvergun (among many other examples) a mere Japanese game that happened to be sold in America two incompatible ideas. I find it impossible to reconcile that and think every argument I've heard attempting to do so leaves loopholes wider than Neptune.


I present my side as such:

1. The game was sold in the US as evidenced by magazine ads and a few copies showing up with the appropriate documentation (the UPC).

2. The game was given a unique UPC which covered the Euro UPC, thus making it a distinct product from the Euro version.

Those 2 facts are enough to lead me to believe that the game was released in the US, even if it was in small numbers.

What are the facts that cause you to believe it was not in fact released here?

This is where you seem to be missing my point. I never once said it wasn't released here. Of course it was released. But it was the European version they released.

To respond to your two points:

1) Many other products of foreign origin were sold in the U.S. and also have or had documentation to prove it. This is indisputable.

2) If a different UPC code makes Sonic UPC a different region than Sonic sans UPC then I once again contend that it logically follows any title with a UPC variant are two separate SKUs and are different titles. If you follow the logical end of your argument it reduces to an absurd conclusion. And it required you to backpedal ala the MKII example. It also arguably follows that any two titles with the same UPC are not two separate titles which creates even more problems.

[98PaceCar]

No doubt. I'm not saying I feel anybody is entitled to any monetary compensation. But I do think equal things deserve to be treated equally. And I find calling Sonic UPC an American game but calling Radiant Silvergun (among many other examples) a mere Japanese game that happened to be sold in America two incompatible ideas. I find it impossible to reconcile that and think every argument I've heard attempting to do so leaves loopholes wider than Neptune.



This is where you seem to be missing my point. I never once said it wasn't released here. Of course it was released. But it was the European version they released.

To respond to your two points:

1) Many other products of foreign origin were sold in the U.S. and also have or had documentation to prove it. This is indisputable.

2) If a different UPC code makes Sonic UPC a different region than Sonic sans UPC then I once again contend that it logically follows any title with a UPC variant are two separate SKUs and are different titles. If you follow the logical end of your argument it reduces to an absurd conclusion. And it required you to backpedal ala the MKII example. It also arguably follows that any two titles with the same UPC are not two separate titles which creates even more problems.

I suspect now we are kind of fighting a terminology issue, though that's not the root of our disagreement.

I contend that while Radiant was sold in the US, Sonic was released in the US. By that I mean that Sonic was given the proper internal and external documentation to be an actual US product while Radiant was merely available at retail. Now the truth is that we will never know for sure the inner workings of either title and how they came to be in the US, but the fact remains that the normal process for changing a product over happened with Sonic for some reason.

If the UPC wasn't added to create an actual US product, why was it added? The fact that it was originally slated for a different market is of no consequence. It was product that was sent to the Euro market and then altered to be sold in the US. If it had not been altered by adding a UPC, I would agree with you. But it was altered and I'm certain that the alteration was done for some reason. Again, Occam's Razor tells me that it was altered in order to release it in the US as a real product.

If it comes to light that Radiant had the same treatment, then at least in my mind it should be considered a US released product and not just a Japanese product that was sold in the US. As it stands, I agree with Bojay that it was likely just bought and resold by Gamestop as a niche product and nothing more. That alone doesn't imply that it should be considered a US release.

Not real sure how I'm backpedaling on my response, but it's pretty common to consider multiple releases of the same game in the same region variants. I'm sure some folks collect based on UPC, but that doesn't apply here. Sonic only had one release in the US so the UPC assigned to it is what makes it a US release. Again, the fact that it started life as a Euro product doesn't have any bearing as it was altered for release here. Not uncommon at all and a smart move by Sega if that is truly what it means.

I think at this point, we're just arguing in circles and not going anywhere. You believe that it is not a US release and I do. I don't see either of us changing our stance. I would love to see some fact that proves (or even suggest) that it was not a US release and was merely sold here, but that data doesn't exist outside of Sega if it even exists at all anymore. It really will be a personal decision each collector needs to make. I made mine a long time ago and bought the Euro version because I'm unwilling to spend the extra on something so easily faked on a game that honestly, I've never liked. For that decision, I'll never say I have an SMS full set for fear of belittling the people that do have a true US set with the UPC Sonic.

[TonyTheTiger]

Again, please tell me what facts you have to support that it was not released here. Arguing against my facts isn't going to sway me.

It's not your facts that I'm disputing, it's your conclusions. You're contending that the UPC code acts as the key switch. So how do you explain games that don't have different UPC codes between regions? If Sonic getting a new UPC makes it American then why don't all other American games have different UPC codes from their foreign counterparts? If you're going to argue that the UPC has that much power then you have to ground that in something. You can't just say "UPC means a lot" without showing that it traditionally has meant a lot. As far as I can tell, it doesn't and never did.

For all the weight you're giving the UPC code, clearly it's a mere oddity, not indicative of any actual "intent" on Sega's part. That's my evidence in a nutshell. That a UPC code means nothing as far as region goes. And my evidence (which I actually had to go look up) are all the games that are sold around the world, many of which are clearly for different regions but have identical UPCs.

Here's the back of the European version of Super Mario Advance 4 and the back of two variants from the U.S.:

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/bigboxshots/3/589393_54727_back.jpg

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/bigboxshots/3/589393_120946_back.jpg

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/bigboxshots/3/589393_24375_back.jpg

And this is just one example. I've looked around and there are plenty of others ranging back to the NES.

Obviously nobody would argue that because the UPCs are all the same that if they have a European copy instead of an American one then that counts as part of a complete U.S. GBA collection just as well. And, based on this, it's clear that publishers and distributors don't put significant stock in UPC codes as something to denote region.

Now I'm not well versed in SMS. I'll be the first to admit that. I have no idea why Sega didn't just use the barcode on the insert (which I didn't know was even there) and won't try to explain it. But the fact that UPC is not indicative of region then suggesting that the UPC sticker on Sonic in particular does just that very thing is something I can't get behind.

I mean, look, I respect that you're willing to engage this and you've actually made the strongest arguments I've seen on the issue. But I still think that you're giving way too much weight to the UPC. You're putting much more stock into it than publishers/distributors seem to which tells me that when Sega affixed the sticker they weren't thinking "make this a new region." Again, I have no idea what they actually were thinking but given the evidence that UPCs haven't the history of making that distinction I can't conclude that it does in this one instance.

Clearly having the same UPC code among multiple regions isn't a problem as far as establishing whether a game is, to use you're term, "released" in that region. So why does Radiant Silvergun having the same UPC in GameStop as it did in Japan mean that it isn't an American release when other American releases also have the same UPC as copies sold overseas?

That's why I'm where I'm at. Because, devil's advocate, if I were to agree that Sonic UPC is American then I still hold based on the evidence that many other things are also American, UPC be damned. Basically, it's not so much you believing Sonic is American that I have a big problem with. What I have a problem with is how you can argue Sonic is American while simultaneously rejecting all other examples. That's the part of your argument I can't reconcile. I can at least entertain the idea that Sonic is American. But I can't entertain that Sonic is American while Radiant Silvergun is not. I feel like they have to be kept together since there's nothing of substantial value to distinguish them. I don't think the UPC is anything close to being that valuable and my evidence is above.

[Bojay1997]

It's not your facts that I'm disputing, it's your conclusions. You're contending that the UPC code acts as the key switch. So how do you explain games that don't have different UPC codes between regions?

I'll be honest, your example of a GBA game having the same UPC in various regions is not only surprising, but kind of changes my mind about the whole argument. I always assumed every region would have a different UPC since there are many US release games nowadays that have different UPCs depending on the retailer and what exclusive DLC is included. I have also seen plenty of US only release games that had a second UPC stuck over the original UPC I'm assuming because of an error. It would be interesting to know why Sega felt the need to add the second UPC. Perhaps the original UPC was already taken by another product in the US? Does anyone know how UPCs are assigned? Is there a central authority that publishers have to contact to get a UPC assignment?

[98PaceCar]

I'll be honest, your example of a GBA game having the same UPC in various regions is not only surprising, but kind of changes my mind about the whole argument. I always assumed every region would have a different UPC since there are many US release games nowadays that have different UPCs depending on the retailer and what exclusive DLC is included. I have also seen plenty of US only release games that had a second UPC stuck over the original UPC I'm assuming because of an error. It would be interesting to know why Sega felt the need to add the second UPC. Perhaps the original UPC was already taken by another product in the US? Does anyone know how UPCs are assigned? Is there a central authority that publishers have to contact to get a UPC assignment?

Much like Bojay, I wasn't aware of this and it does seem to change things a bit (why didn't you post it a day ago?? ;) ). Still doesn't answer why Sega chose to re-barcode the few games that are commonly thought to have been released in the US despite being Euro copies, but it does hurt the argument. I'm not sure if it changes things enough for me to believe that Sonic wasn't released here, but it does raise further questions.

[TonyTheTiger]

Ha, I didn't even know it a day ago. I actually went looking for UPC codes because of all this. Who actually pays attention to those things? LOL

I think that's what it's all about. It's all questions. I would never in a million years try to explain why Sega affixed UPC stickers to a couple games. Maybe it's like Bojay said and for whatever reason there was a duplicate code out there somewhere. But there are hundreds of weird things like that in this hobby.

[NerdXCrewWill]

It's not your facts that I'm disputing, it's your conclusions.

I have read all of this thread. I must say, TonyTheTiger has done an extremely good job with his logical argument. Props go to 98PaceCar for debating intelligently. I was really didn't care one way or the other, as I'm not a collector. Now I think that, in light of Tony's argument against the UPC code, anyone willing to accept Sonic as a US release must accept all other official video game import releases as US releases as well.

This was fun reading, guys.

[RCM]

Not that you have to take wiki as law, but this may clear up some of the UPC confusion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Product_Code

I don't claim to know everything about UPCs, but I believe a product can have several different UPCs depending on the number of retailers that sell it, etc.

[SpaceFlea]

So, with all this said, do we know if ALL Sonic (as well as the other three) games sold in the US had the additional UPC sticker attached? Or could it have been just copies sold at certain distributors?

[Bojay1997]

Not that you have to take wiki as law, but this may clear up some of the UPC confusion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Product_Code

I don't claim to know everything about UPCs, but I believe a product can have several different UPCs depending on the number of retailers that sell it, etc.

I did a little digging and it appears that there is a standards organization that publishers/manufacturers get in contact with and once they get assigned a unique number range, they can essentially implement their own barcode sequencing in line with various rules. So, it's possible that Sega Europe was considered a different company than Sega of America and therefore they couldn't simply use the same barcode. It's also possible that they just did this for internal reasons or maybe the distributor and not Sega was required to put their own unique manufacturer number and UPC on there in line with their own sequencing plan.

Here is the link if anyone is really curious:

http://www.gs1.org/barcodes/implementation/

[RCM]

I did a little digging and it appears that there is a standards organization that publishers/manufacturers get in contact with and once they get assigned a unique number range, they can essentially implement their own barcode sequencing in line with various rules. So, it's possible that Sega Europe was considered a different company than Sega of America and therefore they couldn't simply use the same barcode. It's also possible that they just did this for internal reasons or maybe the distributor and not Sega was required to put their own unique manufacturer number and UPC on there in line with their own sequencing plan.

Here is the link if anyone is really curious:

http://www.gs1.org/barcodes/implementation/

Yeah. I was working on a program a few years ago with publishers and a high profile company that handles their data. The program was scrapped because of all the issues with regional UPC matching.

[jperryss]

I have read all of this thread. I must say, TonyTheTiger has done an extremely good job with his logical argument. Props go to 98PaceCar for debating intelligently. I was really didn't care one way or the other, as I'm not a collector. Now I think that, in light of Tony's argument against the UPC code, anyone willing to accept Sonic as a US release must accept all other official video game import releases as US releases as well.

This was fun reading, guys.

I don't follow the SMS but thoroughly enjoyed this thread.

[Dreammary]

If this gets even a fraction of the press that other high profile games have recently I'd put money on it happening very soon if it hasn't already.



Given how simple and arcane UPC stickers/codes tend to be, I'd have a hard time imagining how. Outside of judging the sticker based on its perceived age (which could also probably be faked) I can't think of any way to do it. It's just an extremely unusual situation. Basing such a huge value difference on the presence of a simple sticker is like valuing a game based on the generic epilepsy warning fliers that get packed with some games.

That's like the difference between Caltron and Myriad NES cartridges, just a simple white paper with black ink label placed on top of Caltron causing nearly four times the worth.

[Drixxel]

That's like the difference between Caltron and Myriad NES cartridges, just a simple white paper with black ink label placed on top of Caltron causing nearly four times the worth.

At least there you're dealing with a distinct and meaningful cosmetic change to the cart, not some generic barcode sticker slapped on the packaging as proof of the game's identity. If somebody were trying to sell a gutted U.S. Sonic The Hedgehog, just the case with no cart and no manual, what kind of price would it fetch by comparison? How about a perfectly preserved U.S. Sonic UPC, carefully peeled from the original packaging and then slabbed? Really distill the value down to its point of origin.

[play2win]

Well, I'm very proud to say that I am the winner of this infamous eBay auction. I have to say, I had no idea that my bid would generate this much discussion. This game did complete my US SMS collection, and I have been actively looking for it for more than 10 years, mostly through saved eBay searches that have generated more than 1500 archived emails :). It feels incredible to finally have a legitimate copy of this game. I have to say though, I've really enjoyed reading this thread and contemplating the arguments made as to whether this game constituted an authentic US Release.

Some of you may know this, but I actually fell victim to an eBay scam several months ago which involved an altered SMS Spiderman UPC sticker stuck on a European Sonic release. For my day job, I work as a large Corporation's Senior House Counsel, and those legal skills came in very handy in finally obtaining a refund. However the significance of this example for this thread's purposes is that the Spiderman UPC sticker wasn't just ripped off, it was actually altered to drastically reduce its size. The original Spiderman sticker contains several legal notifications involving the Marvel characters depicted in the game which, presumably, Sega's Counsel advised were necessary to market the game in the US for purposes of compliance with Marvel's permitted use of their intellectual property. This point is significant because it suggests that it was Sega, and not local distributors, who created the UPC stickers for the US releases of Strider, Spiderman, and Sonic. The material used in these UPC stickers appears to be identical, and is not sticky paper but rather material of a slightly thicker (and possibly partially metallic) consistency. It's not as easy to fake as you might think, and while I can't conclude this with 100% certainty, I'm personally satisfied that this sticker is not a fake.

Notwithstanding, my personal opinion on the UPC debate, and this is not intended to be legal advice, is that the SMS version of Sonic the Hedgehog available without the referenced UPC sticker would likely fall within the legal definition of a "grey market good" under Federal Copyright law. A grey market good is basically a good legally sold in the United States that was not originally intended by the manufacturer for marketing in the United States. Canadian Oreo cookies are an example. The Mexican Coke example would probably not constitute a grey market good, given that the manufacturer, despite being in Mexico, intended the good for marketing in the United States when they affix the nutrition label to the product for US Compliance purposes. The Compliance aspect is not relevant, however, as the critical element of this analysis is the manufacturer's intent. As the UPC sticker evidences Sega's intent to market the game in the United States, and, incidentally, has an independent entry in the unofficial UPC database located here:

http://www.upcdatabase.com/item/010086070767

I have concluded (obviously, since I would not want this game in my collection otherwise) that this game is in fact a non-grey market, official US Release of SMS Sonic the Hedgehog.

By the way, to answer another question in the thread, this item was purchased with the knowledge, consent, and approval of my wonderful and understanding gf. She described it as finding the last piece of a jigsaw puzzle that needed to be finished for completion's sake. Thanks to all for the interesting analysis.

[Jorpho]

What was the second-last game in your collection?

[play2win]

That would be Strider. Besides that one, Golden Axe Warrior, Spiderman, Buster Douglas, and mail order Power Srike are the only other games which cost significant funds.

[Gameguy]

That would be Strider. Besides that one, Golden Axe Warrior, Spiderman, Buster Douglas, and mail order Power Srike are the only other games which cost significant funds.
Unless you start collecting imports, Mah-Jong and Smurfs 2 come to mind. I don't even know how much those game go for complete now as it's been awhile since I've seen them sell, Smurfs 2 is supposed to be the rarest SMS game worldwide with Mah-Jong being the second rarest. Are they anywhere near the cost of a US Sonic now?

[mikesides]

Congratulations Play2Win! Like many other people, Sonic is the last game I am missing as well. Glad to hear you have won this one after that last scam auction. I was following that one over on the Sega8Bit.com Forum and was glad you showed up to let everyone know you were able to get a refund. Good work!

[TonyTheTiger]

This may come across as overly confrontational but I seriously don't intend it that way. It's just a curiosity of mine that may help address one of the earlier issues Aussie2B brought up.

For the people who are saying that Sonic was actually the "last game they needed" or simply that they believe it to be a U.S. game, what inspired that thought in the first place?

I'm just going over the chicken and egg problem once more. Are different people independently coming to this same conclusion or is it the result of the fact that Sonic is listed as a U.S. game that causes people to think that?

Where did people first get the idea that Sonic was a U.S. game?