U.S. Sonic with UPC sells for $981.33

[NerdXCrewWill]

Wow. So if the guy who was half-running the show says the sticker means it's US release, not arbitrary, you disagree based on... A game from 8 years later? DS UPC's? Beating the horse again... Different times, different consoles, different rules apply. Also, should we not defer to the experts who were there?

I'm sorry, but I feel that this is just to big of a misstep to not comment. Just because you say this is true does not mean it is so. The United States didn't go through some major change in the 12 years between Sonic SMS and Super Mario Advanced 4 that completely changed the nature of UPC codes. The European GBA UPC example logically proves that the very nature of UPCs is not indicator of region but arbitrarily changed or kept. A counterexample is the proof of the arbitrary nature of UPCs. You can't change that, no matter how hard you will it so.

Additionally, if we as a video gaming community are willing to accept that UPC is indeed indicative of region for the SMS due to the fact that Sega was consistent with it's regional UPC numbering (evidenced by NeoZeedeater), then we must take this through to it's logical conclusion and accept that multiple video game regional set lists would now be incomplete. If we accept that UPC means something for Sonic, suddenly European copies of games for the DS with UPC stickers in America become essential for American lists.

There is no logical reason to do otherwise.

EDIT: Changed phrase "games for the GBA with UPC sticker in America" to "games for the DS with UPC sticker in America," although this would also have weird effect on the GBA game mentioned as well.

[theclaw]

After all this, it doesn't matter. Unless we disprove the UPC's rarity its price is warranted for the number of units available.

[Sunnyvale]

I'm sorry, but I feel that this is just to big of a misstep to not comment. Just because you say this is true does not mean it is so. The United States didn't go through some major change in the 12 years between Sonic SMS and Super Mario Advanced 4 that completely changed the nature of UPC codes. The European GBA UPC example logically proves that the very nature of UPCs is not indicator of region but arbitrarily changed or kept. A counterexample is the proof of the arbitrary nature of UPCs. You can't change that, no matter how hard you will it so.

Additionally, if we as a video gaming community are willing to accept that UPC is indeed indicative of region for the SMS due to the fact that Sega was consistent with it's regional UPC numbering (evidenced by NeoZeedeater), then we must take this through to it's logical conclusion and accept that multiple video game regional set lists would now be incomplete. If we accept that UPC means something for Sonic, suddenly European copies of games for the DS with UPC stickers in America become essential for American lists.

There is no logical reason to do otherwise.

EDIT: Changed phrase "games for the GBA with UPC sticker in America" to "games for the DS with UPC sticker in America," although this would also have weird effect on the GBA game mentioned as well.


How many times do I need to point out the Atari 2600 'bootlegs' before you guys put the damn blanket away?

And UPC's are vastly different than before. But I'm tired of trying to convince people technology changes drastically in 8 years time. Here's the 'smoking gun'.

http://bellsouthpwp.net/l/a/laurergj/upc/upc_work.html


Following the acceptance of the original U.P.C. specification, I was asked to find a way to add another digit. The symbol already held twelve, the eleven required by UGPCC and a check digit I added to achieve the required reliability. The addition of the thirteenth digit could not cause the equipment to require extensive modification. Further, the original domestic version could not be modified.

The extra digit would allow for "country identification" and make the U.P.C. world wide. Again I found a way to accommodate the requirement and the EAN (European Article Numbering system) symbol was born. Many countries are using the same symbol with their identifying country "flag" (the 13th digit), but chose to call the symbol by other names. An example is JAN (Japanese Article Numbering system), the Japanese version. The symbol has truly become world wide.

In the years since 1973, I have proposed, and the Uniform Product Code Council, Inc. (formerly UGPCC) has accepted, several other enhancements. Among these enhancements is a price check digit for domestic and another for European markets. There is also an expanded symbol, Version D, which has not yet seen wide use.

Look closely at the second paragraph.

Edit: Here's the proof of intent even clearer:

http://www.adams1.com/upccode.html

Note the Barcode on the sticker on Sonic has a US code. There's the intent to distribute, proven. And a little more history of the development of the UPC code. (Honestly, in 8 years we go from NES to N64, but UPC's didn't change?!?)

[NerdXCrewWill]

How many times do I need to point out the Atari 2600 'bootlegs' before you guys put the damn blanket away?


Prior to this last post, you had put forth no evidence as to why we could not compare SMS and GBA games. Everyone knows you can't compare Atari 2600 small-scale releases to modern day bootlegs, and that was never in dispute. Thank you for clarifying your argument.

Regardless, the change from UPC to EAN13 took place much before the Sega Master System was released, so they can be compared. The other changes in the UPC system from Sonic SMS to Mario Advanced 4 have no bearing on what we're talking about.

I'm not the guy arguing that there was not intent to sell the product in the US. I think we all know there was intent to sell here, as it was indeed sold by Sega. I was just

I still maintain that the other interesting cases such as Radiant Silvergun must logically be accepted though, if we do take a UPC product code to be a logical determination of region.


After all this, it doesn't matter. Unless we disprove the UPC's rarity its price is warranted for the number of units available.

This is not necessarily true. Rare things go for peanuts all the time. The value is associated with the demand created by the perception of the sticker being necessary for a U.S. SMS set.

Honestly, I couldn't care less about the value. I don't collect games in general, and the SMS is one of my least favorite video game consoles of all time. I was just getting in on the logical debate. :-)


EDIT: I suppose I should address one more thing in this post to be fair to Sunnyvale. I did say that the existence of a counterexample meant that UPC was shown to be too arbitrary to rely on. There are indeed country codes. I concede that point to you now. Now, I'm wondering why exactly SMA4 would have the same codes. Guess it's an exception, eh?

[TonyTheTiger]

I'm wondering why exactly SMA4 would have the same codes. Guess it's an exception, eh?

Doesn't seem like it. Super Mario Bros. has the same UPC between America and Europe, too. Maybe Nintendo just doesn't care the way Sega does?

[understatement]

Prior to this last post, you had put forth no evidence as to why we could not compare SMS and GBA games. Everyone knows you can't compare Atari 2600 small-scale releases to modern day bootlegs, and that was never in dispute. Thank you for clarifying your argument.

Regardless, the change from UPC to EAN13 took place much before the Sega Master System was released, so they can be compared. The other changes in the UPC system from Sonic SMS to Mario Advanced 4 have no bearing on what we're talking about.

I'm not the guy arguing that there was not intent to sell the product in the US. I think we all know there was intent to sell here, as it was indeed sold by Sega. I was just

I still maintain that the other interesting cases such as Radiant Silvergun must logically be accepted though, if we do take a UPC product code to be a logical determination of region.



This is not necessarily true. Rare things go for peanuts all the time. The value is associated with the demand created by the perception of the sticker being necessary for a U.S. SMS set.

Honestly, I couldn't care less about the value. I don't collect games in general, and the SMS is one of my least favorite video game consoles of all time. I was just getting in on the logical debate. :-)


EDIT: I suppose I should address one more thing in this post to be fair to Sunnyvale. I did say that the existence of a counterexample meant that UPC was shown to be too arbitrary to rely on. There are indeed country codes. I concede that point to you now. Now, I'm wondering why exactly SMA4 would have the same codes. Guess it's an exception, eh?

I think the problem is that people on the fence and people that think SMS Sonic should not be considered a U.S. release only see us saying the difference in the UPC is the key but that’s for this particular instance.

We all agree that Sonic without UPC sticker is different than Sonic with UPC sticker. Even if it is just the sticker you can logically tell them apart right? The non-sticker copy was only sold in Europe and the sticker copy was only sold in the U.S. right? The next logical conclusion to me is to say non-sticker copy = EU and sticker copy = U.S.

Now we put Radiant Silvergun (a game with a similar history) to the same test a U.S. purchased copy next to a Japanese purchased copy and can you tell what one is what? I say no they’re identical down to the last pixel in the last piece of Japanese text.

Then there’s things like the GBA games where they say “see the UPC doesn’t count for that much” and in the GBA games case no it doesn’t but when you put them through the same test low and behold you can tell what game is what without the need of the UPC.

Now with the variant argument I’ll say it again if SMS Sonic got a reprint in the U.S. that changed something on the packaging it would be a variant and if it was the same it would be a second print run.

So in conclusion I’m not saying the UPC should be taken as an absolute for defining what region a game was released in (in this case it just happens to work) but each game should be taken case by case. Seems most people agree with this for things like Atari but somehow after Nintendo everything has to be black and white?

[TRM]

I think the problem is that people on the fence and people that think SMS Sonic should not be considered a U.S. release only see us saying the difference in the UPC is the key but that’s for this particular instance.

We all agree that Sonic without UPC sticker is different than Sonic with UPC sticker. Even if it is just the sticker you can logically tell them apart right? The non-sticker copy was only sold in Europe and the sticker copy was only sold in the U.S. right? The next logical conclusion to me is to say non-sticker copy = EU and sticker copy = U.S.

Now we put Radiant Silvergun (a game with a similar history) to the same test a U.S. purchased copy next to a Japanese purchased copy and can you tell what one is what? I say no they’re identical down to the last pixel in the last piece of Japanese text.

Then there’s things like the GBA games where they say “see the UPC doesn’t count for that much” and in the GBA games case no it doesn’t but when you put them through the same test low and behold you can tell what game is what without the need of the UPC.

Now with the variant argument I’ll say it again if SMS Sonic got a reprint in the U.S. that changed something on the packaging it would be a variant and if it was the same it would be a second print run.

So in conclusion I’m not saying the UPC should be taken as an absolute for defining what region a game was released in (in this case it just happens to work) but each game should be taken case by case. Seems most people agree with this for things like Atari but somehow after Nintendo everything has to be black and white?

But as I mentioned earlier, how can one tell the difference between a loose American copy, and a loose European copy? Do all loose American copies suddenly become European, since they no longer have the box with the UPC? I just can't wrap my head around this point.

[Sunnyvale]

Prior to this last post, you had put forth no evidence as to why we could not compare SMS and GBA games. Everyone knows you can't compare Atari 2600 small-scale releases to modern day bootlegs, and that was never in dispute. Thank you for clarifying your argument.

I contend that 'everyone' should know you can't compare 90's marketing technology to modern day, but apparently not :confused:


Regardless, the change from UPC to EAN13 took place much before the Sega Master System was released, so they can be compared. The other changes in the UPC system from Sonic SMS to Mario Advanced 4 have no bearing on what we're talking about.

The other changes have plenty of bearing if you want to compare GBA with SMS.


I'm not the guy arguing that there was not intent to sell the product in the US. I think we all know there was intent to sell here, as it was indeed sold by Sega.

I know. Tonythetiger is the one saying there is no evidence of intent.



I still maintain that the other interesting cases such as Radiant Silvergun must logically be accepted though, if we do take a UPC product code to be a logical determination of region.

Does your copy of Radiant Silvergun have a different UPC than a Japanese version?


EDIT: I suppose I should address one more thing in this post to be fair to Sunnyvale. I did say that the existence of a counterexample meant that UPC was shown to be too arbitrary to rely on. There are indeed country codes. I concede that point to you now. Now, I'm wondering why exactly SMA4 would have the same codes. Guess it's an exception, eh?

No clue. I don't collect GBA games. And, as one who doesn't collect the games, I am ready to immediately concede that I know nothing of the regional rarities, variations, international releases...

Which is something I wish the non-SMS collectors would consider here. 53 CIB games and 11 loose, and counting ;)

[TonyTheTiger]

I know. Tonythetiger is the one saying there is no evidence of intent.

Intent to sell and intent to create are two different things. I never said they didn't intend to sell the game.

[PapaStu]

But as I mentioned earlier, how can one tell the difference between a loose American copy, and a loose European copy? Do all loose American copies suddenly become European, since they no longer have the box with the UPC? I just can't wrap my head around this point.

Yes, because they are from the same stock. The differences are not in the game, but in the packaging. Look back at 2600 stuff that would be 'PAL' or 'US'. Sometimes, that difference, was just something on the box.


http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k252/PapaStu/NGPC/IMG_1110.jpg

So the SamSho on the right is a US copy correct? That ESRB sticker that was placed on there by the manufacturer makes it so. Ignore the fact that if you just saw the cart, or went by any of the other packaing info on it, you'd be seeing a EURO release. The STICKER makes it different. In most collectors eyes, they won't give two shits. Some do. Those that do, they collect this stuff.

THE STICKER WAS PUT ON BY SEGA. NOT A STORE, NOT ANYONE ELSE. IT WAS SOLD STATESIDE, BY SEGA, TO STORES, WHO THEN SOLD THEM TO US.

THIS.IS.A.US.GAME.

[Daria]

I'd also like to point out that in Europe EA would shove American Genesis cartridges in Mega Drive Packaging. So you have the opposite issue of there being no such thing as a European cart-only Buck Rogers.

[Bojay1997]

Yes, because they are from the same stock. The differences are not in the game, but in the packaging. Look back at 2600 stuff that would be 'PAL' or 'US'. Sometimes, that difference, was just something on the box.


http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k252/PapaStu/NGPC/IMG_1110.jpg

So the SamSho on the right is a US copy correct? That ESRB sticker that was placed on there by the manufacturer makes it so. Ignore the fact that if you just saw the cart, or went by any of the other packaing info on it, you'd be seeing a EURO release. The STICKER makes it different. In most collectors eyes, they won't give two shits. Some do. Those that do, they collect this stuff.

THE STICKER WAS PUT ON BY SEGA. NOT A STORE, NOT ANYONE ELSE. IT WAS SOLD STATESIDE, BY SEGA, TO STORES, WHO THEN SOLD THEM TO US.

THIS.IS.A.US.GAME.


I think using SNK as an example of anything is a terrible idea. I have been an SNK/Neo Geo collector for years and generally, collectors describe their games as English or Japanese. SNK in Torrance, California actually sold the English boxed Neo Geo Pocket black and white games via mail order and even distributed them to some independent game stores like NCS. I don't think you would find any SNK collector who calls those "US Releases". They are English releases. I bought mine from SNK USA directly and I have the receipt, but they are identical to the ones that were sold in Europe and parts of Asia. Similarly, unless an AES game is dog tagged, they are generally described as English if they are the non-Japanese version.

As for Sonic, has anyone proven that Sega actually affixed that UPC? Does it fit with Sega's US barcoding scheme? How do you know Sega distributed it to stores? As far as I know, Sega has not done their own distribution in many, many years if ever.

[Sunnyvale]

Intent to sell and intent to create are two different things. I never said they didn't intend to sell the game.

Sorry, I missed the 'ninja edit' ;)

But you are saying that it's not a US release because of the sticker, although you concede is was intended to be sold in the States, correct?

Am I missing something here? The factory that makes Oreos, with all kinds of boxes they put them in. Are you going to say that the Oreos shipped to France weren't really intended for France because the difference is just a box?

[TonyTheTiger]

Sorry, I missed the 'ninja edit' ;)

But you are saying that it's not a US release because of the sticker, although you concede is was intended to be sold in the States, correct?

What I was saying is that something can be sold somewhere, with publisher intent to do so, yet still be a mere import. Dead horse here but...Radiant Silvergun. Of course there was "intent" to sell Sonic. That was never part of the problem. Whether or not the mere intent to sell an item from a different region automatically converts the game into a local copy is what was up for debate, and what changes to the item (if any) are necessary to complete the transformation.


Am I missing something here? The factory that makes Oreos, with all kinds of boxes they put them in. Are you going to say that the Oreos shipped to France weren't really intended for France because the difference is just a box?

Well that was the basis for my alternate proposition of why Radiant Silvergun or Shenmue II can't qualify as American when they essentially had the same treatment. Let's say you're right about the Oreo thing there and Sonic, too. My original argument was that, if that is the case, then why aren't we counting other things as separate U.S. releases, too? I said before that Sonic being American is something I can at least somewhat accept but what I couldn't accept was the line drawn between Sonic and every other officially distributed import. It sounded arbitrary to me. My argument could be reduced to "Call Sonic U.S. if you want, but then you better call a lot of things U.S., too, because there's no meaningful difference."

But since the revelation of Sega taking a far greater interest in UPC codes than other publishers, there's certainly more wiggle room for that line to exist, I suppose. Although I did look up Shenmue II and the European UPC does not follow the trend.

[Sunnyvale]

What I was saying is that something can be sold somewhere, with publisher intent to do so, yet still be a mere import. Dead horse here but...Radiant Silvergun. Of course there was "intent" to sell Sonic. That was never part of the problem. Whether or not the mere intent to sell an item from a different region automatically converts the game into a local copy is what was up for debate, and what changes to the item (if any) are necessary to complete the transformation.

Well, it would seem a sticker is the necessary step that needed to be taken. Not just intention, but a physical representation of this intention.




Well that was the basis for my alternate proposition of why Radiant Silvergun or Shenmue II can't qualify as American when they essentially had the same treatment. Let's say you're right about the Oreo thing there and Sonic, too. My original argument was that, if that is the case, then why aren't we counting other things as separate U.S. releases, too? I said before that Sonic being American is something I can at least somewhat accept but what I couldn't accept was the line drawn between Sonic and every other officially distributed import. It sounded arbitrary to me. My argument could be reduced to "Call Sonic U.S. if you want, but then you better call a lot of things U.S., too, because there's no meaningful difference."

Again, does Radiant Silvergun have anything to distinguish it from other releases? Then how exactly is it even remotely the same? The sticker proves that the game was intended for release in the US at some point. Find me a Radiant Silvergun sticker, and I'll agree with you. Until then...

It's like having an autograph with no paperwork vs one with paperwork. No contest.


But since the revelation of Sega taking a far greater interest in UPC codes than other publishers, there's certainly more wiggle room for that line to exist, I suppose. Although I did look up Shenmue II and the European UPC does not follow the trend.

Interesting on Shenmue II. Not surprising. Let's face it, if you have a trained eye, SMS games will make your head hurt trying to find all the variants. Sega for the 90's stickers. 'Made in Canada' stickers put over the 'Made in ?'. And the Sonic we're all babbling about. Sega does shit weird, always did. A collector's worst nightmare (cept C64 or 2600).

[TonyTheTiger]

Well, it would seem a sticker is the necessary step that needed to be taken. Not just intention, but a physical representation of this intention.

Well, yeah, that was everybody's point from the start, mine included. We've gone back and forth over whether or not a sticker is substantial enough a step. If it is, then we're talking literally the smallest, most haphazard bottom of the barrel act works. I'm not sure what action could be smaller than a single sticker. A "U.S." written in pencil?


Again, does Radiant Silvergun have anything to distinguish it from other releases? Then how exactly is it even remotely the same? The sticker proves that the game was intended for release in the US at some point. Find me a Radiant Silvergun sticker, and I'll agree with you. Until then...

I'm sure Radiant Silvergun has GameStop receipt paper supporting it, if that's something. Either way we get to the same problem of the authenticity of the individual item (rather than the general intent on the part of the publisher) since for all we know a bunch of Sonic stickers could be forged (certainly an easy prospect). At this point, even if Sonic is hands down no ifs ands or buts about it an American game we're back at square one. How the fuck is anybody supposed to authenticate if they got the real deal?

It probably wasn't much of an issue before since Sonic wasn't exactly a super high profile game. But if word of this recent sale starts spreading? If the shock of the $1,000 UPC sticker starts getting out there? Sure, Sonic is an American game. But good luck picking a copy out of a lineup.


It's like having an autograph with no paperwork vs one with paperwork. No contest.

That's not true. It's definitely easier to authenticate an autograph than a UPC sticker. The paperwork is a marvelous help and value, sure, but it's not the absolute exclusive gatekeeper.


Interesting on Shenmue II. Not surprising. Let's face it, if you have a trained eye, SMS games will make your head hurt trying to find all the variants. Sega for the 90's stickers. 'Made in Canada' stickers put over the 'Made in ?'. And the Sonic we're all babbling about. Sega does shit weird, always did. A collector's worst nightmare (cept C64 or 2600).

No, a collector's worst nightmare is probably ending up in a situation where he can't distinguish between the real deal and good forgeries, which has been the unfortunate implication of this thread the entire time.

[Sunnyvale]

Well, yeah, that was everybody's point from the start. We've gone back and forth over whether or not a sticker is substantial enough a step. If it is, then we're talking literally the smallest, most haphazard bottom of the barrel act works. I'm not sure what action could be smaller than a single sticker. A "U.S." written in pencil?



I'm sure Radiant Silvergun has GameStop receipt paper supporting it, if that's something. Either way we get to the same problem of the authenticity of the individual item (rather than the general intent on the part of the publisher) since for all we know a bunch of Sonic stickers could be forged (certainly an easy prospect). At this point, even if Sonic is hands down no ifs ands or buts about it an American game we're back at square one. How the fuck is anybody supposed to authenticate if they got the real deal?

It probably wasn't much of an issue before since Sonic wasn't exactly a super high profile game. But if word of this recent sale starts spreading? If the shock of the $1,000 UPC sticker starts getting out there? Sure, Sonic is an American game. But good luck picking a copy out of a lineup.



That's not true. It's definitely easier to authenticate an autograph than a UPC sticker. The paperwork is a marvelous help and value, sure, but it's not the absolute exclusive gatekeeper.



No, a collector's worst nightmare is probably ending up in a situation where he can't distinguish between the real deal and good forgeries, which has been the unfortunate implication of this thread the entire time.

And we are back to square one! I addressed this in the beginning of the thread, and kinda left before understatement and I derailed it into MtG :)
If there is a serious question on the authenticity of the sticker, a simple chemical test of the paper and ink would tell for certain. And, as the buyer pointed out, the stickers are slightly mettallic, not something easy to reproduce. I know testing it chemically sounds extreme. It has been done before with collectibles, and will be done again.

If I don't find my Sonic in the wild, you can be damn sure it's going to a lab when I get one.

Go ahead skar, hit me with your Horatio lines :fist:

[TonyTheTiger]

I don't think there's enough information contained within the sticker to actually extract, even with chemical testing. It's unlikely Sega used any kind of special printing techniques that can't be reproduced by the average person. It's a silly UPC sticker. What company is going to invest anything more than necessary for something like that? The only alternative is trying to establish whether the sticker is 20 years old or not. But the thing about dating is that it's inexact. Even carbon dating, what they use to determine the ages of shit like fossils, leaves open a gigantic range of time.

If people have successfully snuck forged baseball cards through professional graders (it has happened) then what the hell do you expect is going to happen with a UPC code printed on a sticker paper that is more than likely easily found today?

You've been told before that you're overestimating what can be done and I'll echo that now. You're overestimating it by a longshot. Show a professional a pristine Sonic with an authentic pristine sticker and a pristine Sonic with a forged sticker and I'd say that professional will fare no better than chance, CSI bullshit or otherwise.

I'd be willing to participate in this experiment but then we'll all be accused of forging stickers and showing the world how to do it. No real way to test this without causing a shitstorm.

[Sunnyvale]

I don't think there's enough information contained within the sticker to actually extract, even with chemical testing. It's unlikely Sega used any kind of special printing techniques that can't be reproduced by the average person. It's a silly UPC sticker. What company is going to invest anything more than necessary for something like that? The only alternative is trying to establish whether the sticker is 20 years old or not. But the thing about dating is that it's inexact. Even carbon dating, what they use to determine the ages of shit like fossils, leaves open a gigantic range of time.

There is enough chemical information in a microscopic shred of paper to determine it's makeup. And yes, paper made in China will be different than that made in Egypt.


If people have successfully snuck forged baseball cards through professional graders (it has happened) then what the hell do you expect is going to happen with a UPC code printed on a sticker paper that is more than likely easily found today?

So they know for a fact that people have snuck baseball cards by proffesional graders because... other graders caught it? Umm...


You've been told before that you're overestimating what can be done and I'll echo that now. You're overestimating it by a longshot. Show a professional a pristine Sonic with an authentic pristine sticker and a pristine Sonic with a forged sticker and I'd say that professional will fare no better than chance, CSI bullshit or otherwise.

I will politely call your statement a religious one. I am a pothead, and I sell second hand shit for a living. But I know that chemical analysis is frequently used to verify all kinds of things, and you probably do as well, but are refusing to admit it. Fuck carbon dating, I'm talking chemical makeup. Grab your Strider sticker and your Sonic sticker, and test them both (unless you think people are forging Striders, too). They'll either match or not. But hey, why take the word of a guy with '420' in his name, eh?

http://www.freemanart.ca/


Freemanart are subsequently unrivalled internationally as experts in their field. An expert art authenticity agency pursuing complex international art fraud and forgery investigations which are accomplished through both academic & forensic art analysis and in depth private investigations.

This includes investigating the authenticity and authentication of paintings & fine art of all types and origins, of all forms and from all genres, regions, artists and periods, on the ground and at source.

If they can do it with a painting, they can do it with a sticker. Money is the only factor here, and the game fetches a lot of money...

[Hawksmoor]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_wvoLtwni0kc/R13FdLyfTkI/AAAAAAAAMiI/J1b2lXLkRq0/s400/nerd-fight_thumb.jpg

[Aussie2B]

If anything, I think this discussion proves that games can't be categorized in terms as black and white as they currently tend to be. We can't call everything "so-and-so-country/region release". Why can't we just call SMS Sonic and games in similar scenarios what they actually are? That is: "so-and-so-country/region game officially distributed in so-and-so-other-country/region". Clearly, games like SMS Sonic are special. Just calling it a European game doesn't tell the whole story. But it doesn't deserve to be called a legitimate US release, like those that were manufactured for release solely in the US, when it's an imported product that only saw a minor addition to its package (especially if you can break the product down with certain pieces having no distinguishable difference from its country of origin; it's silly to say you have a US box and an European cart/manual when all of the pieces have always been together). I think these three categories would make things very easy and clear, and I don't see why anyone should have a problem with that. Granted, yes, it would create a lot of work for whoever would want to document these special products. I would suggest to err on the side of caution until solid proof is documented of authorization for distribution, like a UPC from the publisher, an ESRB rating, a receipt from a major chain, etc. (since you don't want to include every random import that's been brought unofficially into the country by a small independent game shop or whatever).

[TonyTheTiger]

snip.

Tell ya what. Go get some UPC stickers tested and then we'll talk. Doesn't have to be Sonic or even a Master System UPC. You wanted evidence so bad, well here's your chance to back up your claims. If it works in your favor then I'll tip my hat to ya.

[The Shawn]

If anything, (No offence Aussie2B)

Who really gives a fuck at this point?

Some dude sold a rare game, that someone else at least concedes is rare because he BOUGHT the fucking thing. He's happy with his sale I suspect this close to Christmas, the buyer is happy as he has been wanting this game for a long time. Everyone get's reacharounds in the end. Then you people come in here and basically shit all over both dudes 'happytimes'.

Fuck, go do something with yourselves.

*me goes back to my AM natty light buzz and playing Dead Island...

[TonyTheTiger]

Shit all over their happytimes? Not a single person has said they weren't happy that the buyer and seller were happy. How many times do I have to repeat myself when I say that the dollar value of the item has nothing to do with the issue of distribution/production/etc.? How in God's name is this conversation disparaging their transaction?

[The Shawn]

Shit all over their happytimes? Not a single person has said they weren't happy that the buyer and seller were happy. How many times do I have to repeat myself when I say that the dollar value of the item has nothing to do with the issue of distribution/production/etc.?

Perhaps until you realize that a guy who just spent close to a K on a game doesn't want to listen to you yap about how you feel it was a waste of money, as it's not really 'worth it'.

[Sunnyvale]

Tell ya what. Go get some UPC stickers tested and then we'll talk. Doesn't have to be Sonic or even a Master System UPC. You wanted evidence so bad, well here's your chance to back up your claims. If it works in your favor then I'll tip my hat to ya.

Wow. OK, I'll go grab a chemistry degree, and then...

I'm not the one clamouring for evidence here. You are asserting it is easily faked. I point out commonly understood technologies, and you point-n-laugh.

I'll tell you what. Go get 2 pieces of paper from different manufacturers, a kid's chemistry set, and test the two in a simple acid-base test. When they give you different results, think about what a guy paid to do it with a full lab could figure out.

And c'mon now, this:


Snip.

Let's not do that.

[TonyTheTiger]

Perhaps until you realize that a guy who just spent close to a K on a game doesn't want to listen to you yap about how you feel it was a waste of money, as it's not really 'worth it'.

Um, quote me. Go find where I said it was a waste of money and not worth it or anything even remotely similar. I dare you. Because you won't find it, not here or anywhere.


Wow. OK, I'll go grab a chemistry degree, and then...

I'm not the one clamouring for evidence here. You are asserting it is easily faked. I point out commonly understood technologies, and you point-n-laugh.

I'll tell you what. Go get 2 pieces of paper from different manufacturers, a kid's chemistry set, and test the two in a simple acid-base test. When they give you different results, think about what a guy paid to do it with a full lab could figure out.

You're the one making the assertion here. If you say something can be done then it's on you to prove it can. If I tell you there's a clown living in my closet it's not up to you to prove that there isn't one.


And c'mon now, this:



Let's not do that.

What? That's a perfectly legitimate way to trim down chain posts. It doesn't mean anything negative if that's what you think.

[TonyTheTiger]

Double Post

[The Shawn]

Um, quote me. Go find where I said it was a waste of money and not worth it or anything even remotely similar. I dare you. Because you won't find it, not here or anywhere.

Do you double dare me?

Are you for fucking real?

I'm just saying you come across as Mr. GS doucheydouche who needs to be pwend. And that's the way everyone is taking your argument.

[TonyTheTiger]

Do you double dare me?

Are you for fucking real?

I'm just saying you come across as Mr. GS doucheydouche who needs to be pwend. And that's the way everyone is taking your argument.

So you pretended one thing, got told otherwise, and now you're gonna pwn me. Coo.

And say what you mean and mean what you say. If you were saying I come across as Mr. GS doucheydouche you should have said it. But you didn't. 'Cause that's not what you were saying at all.

[NerdXCrewWill]

First, let me commend Sunnyvale for replying like a gentleman. Reading back on our discussion, I see that some might read some extra 'tude between the lines. I just want you to know I did not intend it as such. You've done a good job expanding on your original position.


I contend that 'everyone' should know you can't compare 90's marketing technology to modern day, but apparently not :confused:

I'm still not sure why we wouldn't be able to compare the two. Sorry, haha. Maybe there's something I'm missing.



The other changes have plenty of bearing if you want to compare GBA with SMS.

Those two links you posted didn't mention anything about changes in the UPC barcode system the years between 1991 and 2003. In my quick 10 minutes Googling, I've discovered that UPC scanners became popular in the 90s and that possibly more EAN numbers were added in that decade. I'm beginning to think we're just misunderstanding each other about this point.



Does your copy of Radiant Silvergun have a different UPC than a Japanese version?

I don't know, as I don't own either copy of Radiant Silvergun. I do think that it would follow that a receipt by a licensed major retailer would serve the same proof as a UPC sticker though. That part is up to interpretation, I guess.

After participating in this thread, I actually now, more than ever, believe Sonic is a US release. I also think maybe the collecting community should either accept officially sanctioned imports as part of regional sets, or just settle for distinguishing sets by language, or at least ask themselves what constitutes a full set (of any sort) so we don't run into weird potential inconsistencies.

[The Shawn]

So you pretended one thing, got told otherwise, and now you're gonna pwn me. Coo.

I told you how you're coming off. I said how people are seeing you at this point. I never really pretend anything. I never quoted you. I never said I was going to 'pwend' you. I merely stated how you were being concieved. And perhaps why you are getting the shit you are. Oh well.

And what to fuck is "Coo" are you a pigeon?

[TonyTheTiger]

I told you how you're coming off. I said how people are seeing you at this point. I never really pretend anything. I never quoted you. I never said I was going to 'pwend' you. I merely stated how you were being concieved. And perhaps why you are getting the shit you are. Oh well.

And what to fuck is "Coo" are you a pigeon?

First of all, I don't think I'm getting any shit from anybody but you. Sunnyvale and I had a back and forth but I don't think it got heated unless a call for evidence or a back and forth over the proper placement of burden of proof are read as "angry" or whatever. I certainly never intended to come across as beligerent toward him. If he read a response of mine that way then it was not my intent.

And second,


Perhaps until you realize that a guy who just spent close to a K on a game doesn't want to listen to you yap about how you feel it was a waste of money, as it's not really 'worth it'.


listen to you yap about how you feel it was a waste of money, as it's not really 'worth it'.


listen to you yap about.

And, yes, now I'm being a douche.

[The Shawn]

Guess you 'pwend' ME then, Mr. Doucheydouche.

Listen to me very carefully now:

I said this is how you are being 'concieved', when I personally read your posts, I get through the yadda yadda yadda, and feel as though you are saying the game isn't worth the $. Is this correct? or no? Is this what you are in essence saying? or no? And if I was the person who bought this game I would more then likely tell you to get bent.

Black and white enough for you?

Do you understand?

Would you like some hot tea?

Are these pants to tight?

And I'm out.

[TonyTheTiger]

and feel as though you are saying the game isn't worth the $. Is this correct? or no?.


No.


Is this what you are in essence saying? or no?.

No.

It's really not my fault if you couldn't figure out that I have no objections to people spending $1k on something they personally value. The whole thing was simply about whether the game was American or not and whether other games like it were American or not. It was never about whether it was worth $1k.

[Aussie2B]

Maybe I should've have brought up this topic of discussion in a separate topic. *shrugs* At the time, it seemed closely related enough that I didn't think it was worth having two separate topics related to SMS Sonic (the mods are welcome to split them if desired), and I don't think the buyer had even popped in at that point (too lazy to check). The seller had, but as long as he gets his money, then he shouldn't give a flying flip even if people think SMS Sonic is a grapefruit.

I don't think this topic of discussion should be disparaging to anybody, though. No matter what SMS Sonic is classified as, it doesn't change the fact that the copies with UPC stickers are very rare, and if people think that variant should be worth a ton of money, then that's what it'll be worth. The market dictates. I definitely think this topic is more worthwhile than how it started, with it basically being "Hey, this dude spent a lot of money on SMS Sonic" and all of the replies being "That's cool" and "That's crazy". If anything, those latter replies are a lot more disparaging to the buyer and other collectors with this version of Sonic than the suggestions that SMS Sonic may not deserve to be acknowledged as a full-fledged US release.

I'm personally just looking at it through the perspective of what the established information is on this and similar titles and what resources like the rarity guide says and if those things need to be reexamined.

[goatdan]

I followed this for a bit, fell off, and just looked through it all again. Interesting debate. A little too heated sometimes, but that is what you get I guess. Anyway, a few insights that I can share from having done some UPC work and whatnot...

Just because the UPC starts with the same number doesn't really say anything. Having said that, I would tend to believe that these were released in the US. Was it by Sega? Who knows -- it is just as equally likely that some company imported a bunch of them, slapped UPC stickers on them and sent them out to be distributed where ever they were sold. Based on the number and the high profile of Sonic, I would say that was almost definitely Sega, but it is just as likely some enterprising company could have done the same thing.

There have been multiple times where a UPC has been changed on a product due to lots of reasons. It still happens to this day. Another Sega example is I believe the original Genesis games had one UPC, while the Majesco reprints had another.

There are also multiple times where a new UPC will be placed over an old one, either at the store level or at the company level. A great example is go to Target, look at their reduced cards. On the back, there will be a sticker that says like $0.99 with a bar code covering another sticker. The store changed the bar code to account for the item in a different way. In this case, it is because the cards didn't sell the first time around, so they put them in a pool with all of the other cards that didn't sell, reduce them all the same and track them as a whole instead of individually. I've seen many games like this, and even systems.

Having said all that, I'm a strong proponent of "I collect what I think I need for my collection to be complete" collecting. If you want to collect just carts, and you don't think that Sonic should count because you can't tell if it was an import cartridge or not, great! Don't count it! If you want to collect games that are boxed, and you think it should count, great! Count it! It doesn't really matter as long as you're happy with the results.

The one thing that makes people a little testy about this is that it is on the wrapper only, so it could be argued both ways, and the fact the only way you can tell is if it is unopened is different and drives the demand up to astronomical levels for those who want to prove that they have an actual, sold-in-the-US copy of the game. Those people are willing to pay nearly $1k for it, and good for them! Personally, if I was collecting SMS games, I think I would go for an open copy for way less, but you never know. I've been willing to drop stupid money on other items that I doubt many people were because I felt they were part of my complete set. Anyone who says that this is part of the complete set is totally open to that as a thought. Officially, Sega doesn't say one way or another what a complete set is, so it's up to the individual.

At least, that is what I think :)

[goatdan]

I said this is how you are being 'concieved'

Just for the record, conceived is when something is being formed, and is often used to describe when sperm meets an egg. I believe the word you're looking for is perceived, which means understood.

Sorry, I got a very funny picture in my head when I read this post and saw Tony the Tiger being conceived. I'd really like to have that thought out of my head now.

[TonyTheTiger]

Maybe I should've have brought up this topic of discussion in a separate topic. *shrugs* At the time, it seemed closely related enough that I didn't think it was worth having two separate topics related to SMS Sonic (the mods are welcome to split them if desired), and I don't think the buyer had even popped in at that point (too lazy to check). The seller had, but as long as he gets his money, then he shouldn't give a flying flip even if people think SMS Sonic is a grapefruit.

I don't think this topic of discussion should be disparaging to anybody, though. No matter what SMS Sonic is classified as, it doesn't change the fact that the copies with UPC stickers are very rare, and if people think that variant should be worth a ton of money, then that's what it'll be worth. The market dictates. I definitely think this topic is more worthwhile than how it started, with it basically being "Hey, this dude spent a lot of money on SMS Sonic" and all of the replies being "That's cool" and "That's crazy". If anything, those latter replies are a lot more disparaging to the buyer and other collectors with this version of Sonic than the suggestions that SMS Sonic may not deserve to be acknowledged as a full-fledged US release.

I'm personally just looking at it through the perspective of what the established information is on this and similar titles and what resources like the rarity guide says and if those things need to be reexamined.

Yeah, I figured this topic was an acceptable extension of the initial post. Where else could the thread have gone? Hell, it could have turned out FAR worse and become an actual beratement over the price as many other threads like this degenerated to. As far as I can tell, we just springboarded into a broader discussion about Sonic.

I don't think there's that much more to say on the subject than we've already said. We've turned over almost every stone, outside of going through with actual chemical testing to test the possibility of smoking out forgeries on a consistent basis. But, yeah, even I know that'd be a crazy thing to do if only because it costs money.

I'm pretty damn happy, all things considered.

[The Shawn]

Just for the record, conceived is when something is being formed, and is often used to describe when sperm meets an egg. I believe the word you're looking for is perceived, which means understood.

Sorry, I got a very funny picture in my head when I read this post and saw Tony the Tiger being conceived. I'd really like to have that thought out of my head now.

Yes, I knew that sounded totally ignorant. It's sort of an inside joke around the house with me.

No really...

[goatdan]

Yes, I knew that sounded totally ignorant. It's sort of an inside joke around the house with me.

No really...

Heh -- no, it's not a huge deal, and it is something a lot of people make the mistake of saying.

Having said that, I read it right after I posted my other thoughts and went, "Wait, we're makin' babies with this cart now?"

Hope it lightens the mood a bit ;)

[The Shawn]

Are these pants to tight?





I'm pretty damn happy, all things considered.

Glad we're on the same page.

[TonyTheTiger]

Don't push me to post ponies.

[understatement]

This thread needs to be made into a movie.

[Hawksmoor]

http://files.myopera.com/philharris/blog/body.jpeg

http://img3.lln.crunchyroll.com/i/spire1/e2d04eb51dd7172c1d33ea5b9168b7761296887885_full.jp g

[Sunnyvale]

First, let me commend Sunnyvale for replying like a gentleman. Reading back on our discussion, I see that some might read some extra 'tude between the lines. I just want you to know I did not intend it as such. You've done a good job expanding on your original position.

Thanks. No offense was taken. As Sothy said :It's the internet, who cares :p




I'm still not sure why we wouldn't be able to compare the two. Sorry, haha. Maybe there's something I'm missing.

You can compare the two to illustrate the evolution of the tech involved. That's all, imo. Stores used to be mostly brick-n-mortar, now they're mostly online. As The Gunslinger says: The world has moved on.


Those two links you posted didn't mention anything about changes in the UPC barcode system the years between 1991 and 2003. In my quick 10 minutes Googling, I've discovered that UPC scanners became popular in the 90s and that possibly more EAN numbers were added in that decade. I'm beginning to think we're just misunderstanding each other about this point.

After this post, I agree. We're crossing wires. Meh.



I don't know, as I don't own either copy of Radiant Silvergun. I do think that it would follow that a receipt by a licensed major retailer would serve the same proof as a UPC sticker though. That part is up to interpretation, I guess.

A reciept is a good point, but it lacks the 'feelie' characteristics of a sticker. I think this seperates it from Sonic in the mentality of (most) collectors.


After participating in this thread, I actually now, more than ever, believe Sonic is a US release. I also think maybe the collecting community should either accept officially sanctioned imports as part of regional sets, or just settle for distinguishing sets by language, or at least ask themselves what constitutes a full set (of any sort) so we don't run into weird potential inconsistencies.

I like your optimism! But we (the geek community) can't agree on tons of shit, so I'm not holding my breath ;)


On a side note, I was about to bow out of this thread, but damn... I'm getting the popcorn, a beer, and some refers. Understatement was dead-on; this should be a TV show @_@

[Sunnyvale]

First of all, I don't think I'm getting any shit from anybody but you. Sunnyvale and I had a back and forth but I don't think it got heated unless a call for evidence or a back and forth over the proper placement of burden of proof are read as "angry" or whatever. I certainly never intended to come across as beligerent toward him. If he read a response of mine that way then it was not my intent.

Sorry bout that. The 'Snip' I took for you implying I was being snippy. I see it was a snip of scissors. Got it.

Besides that, I've not been offended at all.