Another 2 NES prototypes found...

[KlarthAilerion]

Seems like I missed out on all the fun in this thread, as well as the general points I'd have wanted to make about high-value, non-prototype carts. Points such as the Nintendo World Championship 1990 cartridges selling (on Ebay and in private) before the game was dumped for ~1000 to ~3000 or so, and having sold (up to) between ~2000 and ~5000 (on Ebay and in private) after the cartridge was dumped.

Or Peek-A-Boo Poker (and the other Panesians as well) selling for ~100 to ~200 per cart before the game was dumped and from ~200 to ~400 after the game was dumped.

Or the Caltron/Myrmid 6-in-1, which has had a widely variant selling price depending on when you're looking at, but has generally increased in value since 1997.

And Stadium Events, which has a rediculous asking price right now. Of course, the supply available on Ebay for the year or two before the cartridge was dumped was much lower than after it was dumped... oh, wait, I thought less copies of a game available for purchase was supposed to increase the value? I must be confused.

And also Cheetamen II, although there had been an available supply for purchase at a steady price for some time, one of which was used to dump the currently-circulating ROM. Then when that supply dried up, the cost of the cartridge went up.. despite the fact that the game was "freely" (albeit illegally) available for download.

I could touch on the selling power / value of late release Taito games (such as Flintstones 2, for example), complete copies of Stack-Up, as well as any other cartridge that is difficult to come by. Or on the fact that if dumping a game so greatly devalues cartridges that it hurts the collecting hobby, then it should be fairly easy to purchase an entire collection of released games for the NES for about $3500 or so (roughly, a little less than $5 per game), but anyone who has collected an entire (USA releases) NES set will laugh at that 3.5k estimate.

This isn't a knock on any collector or any individual (seriously, it isn't), it's not on topic with the thread (definitely), and it's not even the same argument that's been hashed out in this thread (which really wasn't on topic either). It's just a statement of facts that seem to have been often conveniently overlooked in the other long-running, "prominent" argument/discussion/whatever concerning the value of dumped vs. non-dumped non-prototype, released cartridges, be they licensed or unlicensed. And it is related to NES prototype collecting in my opinion because it's the same gaming medium and the same type of product that are being collected.



Well, I can't say I wouldn't have jumped into the argument at all.. I would have also interjected the fact that I had personally spent an excessive amount (more than most people could possibly understand) of my own time and money to not only collect some of those rare cartridges but to also make sure that they were made available for everyone to enjoy. You usually don't see many people in these threads who are collectors who will step up and take that particular angle in the ongoing "debate."

I'm personally of the opinion that with many collectors who are non or partial gamers, the cartridges themselves are what is being collected. And the point has been made time and again that the only reliable gauge of value for a cart, be it prototype or unreleased or melted slag, is what someone is willing to pay for it.

If a collector really wants a complete "set" or to be the only person to own the "real thing" then it shouldn't matter to them if the game is dumped or not. It certainly didn't stop me from collecting the cartridges that I wanted, even though the majority of the games had been dumped and released to the public. A collector isn't really collecting the carts if that's a factor for them, they're just collecting what could be considered (by some) the "prestige" of being the only living thing to own the cart.

Some people get off on that, and that's there prerogative.. I personally am of the opinion that that's a waste of a game that the people interested in playing the games, be they solely gamers or also collectors, would appreciate. It's just my opinion, and I'm entitled to it. What I get off on is thinking about how I'm personally responsible for ruining the collectibility and lowering the value of all those rare carts..... oh, wait. They're worth more now. O_O

[Buyatari]

Oh, wait, I thought less copies of a game available for purchase was supposed to increase the value? I must be confused.



You are.

Those are released games. They hold their value with collectors mostly because

1. More people collect released games than prototypes
2. They are easier to verify

What has to happen for you to believe that a proto that isn't dumped will generally sell for more than if it had been? Believe what you want this is really past the realm of different beliefs and into the realm of...Thats just the way it is deal with it.

Don't use NWC.

You may say NWC wasn't released but it was sent out to certain members of the public and its easier to verify (by the average Joe) than a standard proto. Its fairly uncopiable at this point. It was in fact "released" just that very few of them were released to the public. It WAS legally owned by people who weren't involved in the industry. It wasn't a work in progress or even a cart which was abandened. It was used for what it was intended, the Championships and it was given away to members of the general public.

I could argue some more how NWC is different than a standard prototype but you KNOW it isn't the same. The NWC is certainly in a class to itself. Its the holy grail of Nintendo and possibly all video game collecting.

Your post would almost suggest that a prototype would INCREASE in value if its dumped. Do you really believe that for one second? If so you don't know a thing about protos. They are not released games.

Why don't you point me to an unreleased prototype that was then dumped and which has increased in value as much as the released games you have mentioned ?

Dumping does affect the value of unreleased games. I've collected games heavily for many years, trust me on this one. No "heavy hitter" will spend the same money on a dumped proto as on an undumped proto. You can say.... well to you it holds the same value but you aren't a "heavy hitter" and you don't spend a thousand bucks a pop when you find something you need for your collection. The people who do have a different way of thinking. I know because I'm one of them.


As far as, people want to play the games so people should make unreleased games available well thats certainly a different arguement and one I'll be happy to listen to.

Adam

[KlarthAilerion]

What has to happen for you to believe that a proto that isn't dumped will generally sell for more than if it had been?

Re-read what I posted.. I'm not trying to argue about the value of prototypes in the slightest. I tried to make it very clear that I was talking about non-prototype, released games (at least in the upper portion of my post, where I was quoting price ranges). What I was referring to is the other long-running "debate" that parallels the prototype "debate" (although it is different in scope), basically whether dumping any cartridge reduces its value to collectors.



Your post would almost suggest that a prototype would INCREASE in value if its dumped. Do you really believe that for one second? If so you don't know a thing about protos. They are not released games.

Same as above. I'm well aware of the difference between the two situations, as well as the differences in the target market for sellers and the motivations of the buyers.



Dumping does affect the value of unreleased games. I've collected games heavily for many years, trust me on this one. No "heavy hitter" will spend the same money on a dumped proto as on an undumped proto.

I have a difference of opinion. I personally wouldn't collect a prototype just because it was a prototype that was available for purchase, regardless of what it was or it's estimated value. If it were something I'd been interested in previously for whatever reason (say, Hero Quest, for example), it wouldn't matter to me, personally, whether the game had been dumped or not. I collect games, not plastic and silicon.. but I understand that others (including many "heavy hitters," as you have referred to them) think differently on the issue and have their own motives for purchasing things.

By all means, it's your money.. spend it how you want to. However, the distinction between someone buying a game to actually collect it and someone buying a game with the intention to eventually turn a profit should be able to be made. If you're buying a game to sell it for profit, that's not collecting but rather playing the market. When foolishness like the seller of the Arcadia cart, for instance, starts interferring with the hobby (be it gaming or collecting), those people deserve to be called out for their lying and whatnot. Any true collectors would probably want to know whether the seller of an item is deceitful or not, anyway, to make sure they're getting what they payed for. I wouldn't think that anyone would disagree with that.



You can say.... well to you it holds the same value but you aren't a "heavy hitter" and you don't spend a thousand bucks a pop when you find something you need for your collection. The people who do have a different way of thinking. I know because I'm one of them.

Actually, you're completely and utterly wrong on this point. Just because I'm not a "prominent" figure in anyone's "community" or "scene" doesn't automatically mean that you understand anything about my collection, my purchasing methods, or my past purchases whatsoever. I have plunked down a thousand or more at a time for things that I wanted in this hobby, and I also made the personal decision to share my hobby with others so that they could get enjoyment out of it. And yes, the ROM whores are a turn off, but I've also found many people who appreciate what I've done and really do enjoy playing these games.

Mr. Santulli posted that no one should question your character or your commitment to the classic gaming community, and others (yourself included) have posted that people who aren't "heavy hitters" don't understand the motivations for collecting. Well, I'm not questioning anything about you personally.. I don't know you.

However, you don't know me. And you don't know the other people who are interested in sharing and preserving information about these games (and their developers, creation process, and other such relevant information). It's a little agtitating to have people making assumptions about you when they don't even know anything about you, as I'm sure you can agree.



As far as, people want to play the games so people should make unreleased games available well thats certainly a different arguement and one I'll be happy to listen to.

If you keep your eye on Lost Levels every month, I'm hoping the results from the site will make that argument for me. We're trying to get information on some of these unreleased games out to the gaming public and all other interested parties, so that the answers to "I wonder why they never made that game?" and other similar questions can finally be answered.

I'd like to also note that any collectors who wants to share information on their little-known games without actually having the game itself distributed are more than welcome to contribute to the site. We're not aiming at making LostLevels.org a ROM site, but rather an informational and historical gaming site where everyone can learn something interesting.

I would make the argument that having more people know about a game could increase its potential monetary value (monetary value being what someone is willing to pay for it), as opposed to having very few people knowing about it. In my opinion, not spreading information about your cart ultimately limits your potential market significantly. Thoughts to the contrary (with a factual basis of examples) are welcome.

[Duncan]

I'd like to also note that any collectors who wants to share information on their little-known games without actually having the game itself distributed are more than welcome to contribute to the site. We're not aiming at making LostLevels.org a ROM site, but rather an informational and historical gaming site where everyone can learn something interesting.

I would make the argument that having more people know about a game could increase its potential monetary value (monetary value being what someone is willing to pay for it), as opposed to having very few people knowing about it. In my opinion, not spreading information about your cart ultimately limits your potential market significantly. Thoughts to the contrary (with a factual basis of examples) are welcome.

He makes a good point here. Notoriety is never a bad thing in any collector market -- take cars, for instance. Consider what pristine show-quality Edsels are worth today (compared to their value back in 1958-60, when everyone originally thought they were crap). Then think how amazing it would be to find something like a prototype 1960 Edsel in a body style or trim type that was never officially released (there may yet be some out there).

And before you laugh this off as an irrelevant example, consider this -- some people with metalworking talent have actually created fake 1960 Edsel prototypes (based on 1960 Fords, which were similar in design). So long as people know what the deal is, that's fine -- and it's not entirely dissimilar to downloading a ROM into an emulator. Whether or not it's morally right to do so is a different matter, but it also creates a considerable gray area of intermingled opinions.

For instance, is it right for a person who just wants to play an unreleased game to download a ROM and do so? One can obviously go two ways here -- "yes" because the company never planned to make money on the game anyway, or "no" because the company's legal rights to the intellectual property ought to be upheld.

The same sort of dichotomy can be applied to the collector who owns and guards an actual prototype -- it's either okay because they're protecting the uniqueness of an historical object for posterity, or it's wrong because they're hiding it from a public that might be interested in seeing the rare beast with their own eyes.

If I have to choose sides, I guess I lean towards the "make it available" side of the argument. To me, there's no point in having something rare or unique if no one even knows anything about it. By way of example, I'm willing to bet that some currently unknown collector owns the yet-to-be-found number 001 Chevrolet Corvette of 1953 -- and he's just patiently waiting for the right day to spring his prize on the world. (Just for reference, the earliest production Corvette found to date is number 003. The very first prototype was saved from the crusher by GM and is known to exist.)

And what's sad is that in these kind of cases, said collector usually has to pass away before the truth is revealed, thus denying him the pleasure of ever seeing the public's reaction. Where, I ask, is the thrill in that?

I'll close by saying that neither side in this argument is entirely right or wrong, and it will probably go on until the end of time.

But I'll also say that both Buyatari and RedEye both seem to have an unhealthy amount of vanity bottled up inside -- Buyatari for his cocky "I paid this much" mentality, and RedEye for his over-rebellious "fuck the capitalists" stance. Sure, I don't know either of you from a hole in the ground, but this is what your posts so far have basically told me.

Feel free to tell me if I'm out of line, but I read all four pages and I'm pretty sure I know where you're both coming from on the issue.

Duncan :D -- mild-mannered Sega enthusiast and historian, part-time philosopher and ruminator

[TheRedEye]

I've never denied being an over-idealistic, rebellious, angry asshole. That's just...me.

[Duncan]

I've never denied being an over-idealistic, rebellious, angry asshole. That's just...me.

Hey, you can only be what you are. So if you're comfortable with that, no worries...

Duncan :D

[TheRedEye]

I'm also an excellent cook!

[DreamTR]

A few points that NEED to be addressed.

FACT: There is no way in hell any of thedumpers of the ROM community would pay an obscene amount of money for an UNRELEASED game that was already dumped. They will keep costs at a minimum unless it is something they do not have. Already that statement alone is enough to tell you how valuable the game is, and how ticked off they get when someone will not share the game with them.

FACT: You can copy a prototype of an unreleased game really easily. Do you think I would purchase the "Drac's Night Out" unreleased game because it's real? Take this into consideration. The "real" Drac's Night Out available on the net has two open faced EPROMS, no label. The one I had MADE is also on an NES Development board with EPROMS. What is the difference then? It's not these are different parts, just made in different time eras witht he same code, so who's to say that is NOT prototype, because well, it is. Now you see? Rampant copying may happen, and it's not like myself, Buyatari, or anyone would buy Drac's Night Out knowing it is dumped and freely available.

Even California Raisins could not hit its' barrier, no one wanted that game, the AMAZING CR for more than 500. That is the lowest I have ever HEARd of an Unreleased proto going for. Brandon basically lost out on a chance for $2500 because of this. Was it tihe right decision? Well, he was not selfish, and not in it for the money, then yeah, everyone won in the end except for him I guess...but anyone who would pay that much for that game after dumping is silly, there really is/was no point.

This argument is only for the unreleased/released proto deal which constitutes a larger sum of money than normal, but they do lose value. Atari protos lost value, they all do, it's simple supply/demand, and the ability to hold over someone's head that THEy are the only one that has that game, and EVERYONE wants it, but when it is readily available, and it is not collectable (who wants EPROM cart which looks homemade that is already available?) then it's a really, really tough sell.

[Buyatari]

If you have kept up with these threads you will see that the only people who still claim that dumping and releasing DOES NOT affect value just have no idea whats going on.

That debate is pretty much closed.

The argument here is that the guy who finds an unreleased proto SHOULD dump it. There is SOME logic behind this argument.

When the pro-dumpers argue that anyone who doesn't do this shouldn't be in the hobby and that they have A RIGHT to these games well then all logic they had going is pretty much right out the window and the argument loses all credability.

Adam