Another 2 NES prototypes found...

[nesworld2]

Defector and American Crisis....

That's all I can tell you right now LOL

[Buyatari]

HA

Thats all I need to hear anyway.
NES is overrated anyway bring out the unreleased PSOne games.

Adam

[TheRedEye]

I'm so glad Arcadia went into the proper hands.

[ArnoldRimmer83]

Me too. It's nice when people who don't give a crap about the Nes, get a piece of Nes history. Yep, sure is nice.

[Nespit]

and where did those 2 popped up? and pictures?

[Buyatari]

and where did those 2 popped up? and pictures?

Its obvious this guy doesn't have spit.

He only posted that to get a reaction so I gave him one.

Adam

[nesworld]

hahahaha! yeah right, I'd post crap like that to get a reaction? I don't think so. But since you don't care, what's it to you anyway?...

For the rest of you, watch out for more info on NES WORLD in the beginning of August...

[portnoyd]

and where did those 2 popped up? and pictures?

Its obvious this guy doesn't have spit.

He only posted that to get a reaction so I gave him one.

Adam

Martin wasn't full of "spit" when he got Escape from Atlantis.... or Poke Block... or the number of other things he has on www.nesworld.com.

dave

[Buyatari]

Well if he would have posted with his REAL account I'd have believed him. Why did you start a new account just to post that? I figured it was just someone trying to screw with me. I stand corrected, if it is indeed Martin from Nesworld I wouldn't doubt his word.

BTW I wouldn't say I have no interest but minimal interest. When it comes to unreleased games I'm interested to know the manufacturer and possibly the date it was developed. I'm actually more curious as to how they come to be found and the dollar ammounts they sell for.

Most of the games which were unreleased are just not worth playing. I have some rare released games like Stadium Events for NES or Chase the Chuckwagon for Atari 2600 which I have never bothered to play....not once. So it shouldn't be any different with unreleased games which are just as bad. I have them because I'm a collector but I'm not that die hard a gamer to want to play them all....good or bad. These days I just have time for the good ones.

Adam

[portnoyd]

Well if he would have posted with his REAL account I'd have believed him. Why did you start a new account just to post that? I figured it was just someone trying to screw with me. I stand corrected, if it is indeed Martin from Nesworld I wouldn't doubt his word.

Adam

Well, you would if you forgot your password. :) And yes, you can use the send password board function, BUT sometimes you lose that email account, and have to use an alternate. I didn't use "portnoydYaBBsucks" on nesworld for nothing. :)

It's all about the cash for some, I guess.

dave

[Buyatari]

Ok you caught me. I do enjoy NES protos. I enjoy all protos. My problem isn't with NES protos. Its just with a few of the collectors who collect them and I'm afraid they got the best of me and my temper this time around.

ALSO
Money really isn't the ONLY reason I don't agree with dumping protos. Although, I do believe dumping and releasing them will reduce the value greatly. I might have a different view of unreleased protos but to me what makes an undumped proto special is the fact that they can be found no where else. There is certainly a magical ring to that.

The game itself often isn't complete and chances are it just plain sucks. Its code is NOT what makes a prototype special. What makes a proto special is its ability to turn heads at a convention when its poped in infront of a crowd. The magic of it being the only one anywhere in the world. The stir a proto causes the first time its mentioned on the message boards as being found or the first time you see a screenshot or play a level.

Those of you who post proto pictures on your websites know this to be true. You do it to get that rush when you announce that a new proto has been reviewed. And those that rush to your website to see them also get a rush when they see it for the first time. While you my get a email patting you on the back from time to time you often don't share in this experience with the viewer. You place a couple screen shots on the web and you dump the rom and slowly that prototype becomes a common crappy game. Soon forgotten after the next prototype is found and no one is exicited over that old screen shot anymore.

I don't have a website. I don't do reviews. But I do hit 2-3 major game shows every year and I never hold back anything which I own. If you ask me to bring something to the show you know I'm attending I will (unless I forget) You can touch it and play it all you want and for me the awe of an undumped prototype doesn't ever diminish. It is always new to someone there and since I'm there I also share in that experience.

Collecting prototypes is EXPENSIVE. I like anyone else, must get something out of it or I simply wouldn't do it, wether fininancial gain, being able to show off a one of a kind proto or both. You can say its JUST about the money and thats the easiest reason for others to accept but it isn't altogether true. Afterall, paying hundreds or thousands of dollars for prototypes you just sit on isn't the best way to turn a profit.

Adam

[Blackjax]

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

:laughs hysterically at the fact that BuyAtari is about to be completely proven wrong very soon:

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

[Blackjax]

BuyAtari... I really have to thank you....

You have finally reminded me why I started my website in the first place. Since I read your last post, it's inspired me to write 25 reviews.

Once again BuyAtari, I salute you :bullshit: :bullshit: :bullshit:

[portnoyd]

Money really isn't the ONLY reason I don't agree with dumping protos. Although, I do believe dumping and releasing them will reduce the value greatly. I might have a different view of unreleased protos but to me what makes an undumped proto special is the fact that they can be found no where else. There is certainly a magical ring to that.

The game itself often isn't complete and chances are it just plain sucks. Its code is NOT what makes a prototype special. What makes a proto special is its ability to turn heads at a convention when its poped in infront of a crowd. The magic of it being the only one anywhere in the world. The stir a proto causes the first time its mentioned on the message boards as being found or the first time you see a screenshot or play a level.
Adam

So I guess it's all about cash and ego-boosting?

dave

[Bratwurst]

For all I care Mr. Buyatari could wiggle his weewee all over his hoarded protos and I'll still eat my cheese and fresh bread breakfast every morning without concern.

BUT ANSWER ME THIS

EEPROMs aren't the most stable means of data storage but they're not as volatile as some people make them out to be. I have chips that still have data on them from the 80s, but when those undumped protos go corrupt, and they will, how will you feel about that? Whether you own them or someone else does.

[adaml]

As an old school NES freak, I'd hate to see any unreleased NES proto go to waste. Back in the late 80's, early 90's I'd buy up every single magazine that even mentioned the NES in it. I have countless numbers of Gamepros, EGMs, Nintendo Powers...you name it, down in my cellar and have defended throwing them away to my wife many times. I'd read these mags from cover to cover and sometimes after a year or so I'd go back through the mag and see that there might be a game or 2 mentioned that I hadn't seen in a store, rental or merchandise.

Only years later on the internet, through rarity lists, newsgroup posts and eBay, do I discover that many of these games never made it out to the public. I think of all the hard work that the programmers, artists and music people put into the game and wonder how pissed they must have been to see all their hard work go for naught.

Whenever I see that a California Raisins turns up it literally makes my day after years of wondering if prototypes do indeed exist. Then there is the rare game, like Arcadia VI, that turns up and completely takes me by surprise. You kind of hope that it falls into the right hands of a sympathetic person who is into video games because they love the hobby and will get a certain satisfaction of releasing the game to the general public so the hard work that went into the game originally can finally be shown to the public at large.

If I were ever lucky enough to come across a proto, I'd hook up with someone just to have it dumped for preservation and STILL keep the actual proto for myself. I am not losing a thing and from what I understand, the actual cart does not get harmed from being dumped, so only good can come from releasing this thing in ROM form.

As for Arcadia VI, I don't want your proto, sir, I'd just like to be able to play it. It is, of course, your property, but being on the digital press boards I figured you were someone who loved video games in general. Oh well.

[DogP]

I couldn't really say whether dumping and releasing devalues games, because I've always thought that everyone should be able to play everything, the game goes to waste if people don't get to play it, but then as I started getting rarer games, I started to think that releasing rare games isn't good, because I've gotten ROMs of some rare games, and I know that I've lost serious interest in buying that game now... but maybe that's because I'm more of a gamer than a collector... I'd pay lots of money to play a game, but if I don't have to, then I won't. Will me not being interested in a game will cause the value to go way down? Who knows... probably not, unless there's lot of other people like me. To me, a copy of a game is the same as a game, you don't see the cartridge when it's in your system anyway :P .

BUT, not dumping a ROM is a VERY bad idea IMO... once again, an EPROM is an EPROM to me, whether it's an original one that some guy at Nintendo put in, or one that you put in yourself, the important part of it is the unique sequence of bits (the ROM data). I don't know about anyone else, but I'd feel VERY sick if I popped the game in my system, and it just came up to a black screen... if you have it dumped, just either erase the original one if you want the "official" chip, and reprogram it, or just pull that chip out, stick it on a shelf so you can say you still have the corrupted "original", then pop your own chip with a good burn in it, so it'll last another 20 years. But just because you dump it, doesn't mean that you should release it... just make multiple backups of it, have another set of chips burned... store them in a safe place, and that way hopefully you'll be safe and not have to worry about losing the data.

DogP

[nesman85]

i also beleive that releasing a proto rom devalues the original. if a proto is on ebay that has been dumped, and buyatari isn't willing to pay as much for it, his bid will be less than it would have been (if he even bids), so the auction will end for less than it would have. i'm sure he isn't the only collector like this either. some people get enjoyment out of releasing a game for all to play, others get enjoyment out of being the only person to own it. whatever gives you more enjoyment is what you should do. if a proto is for sale and everyone has the chance to buy it, the person who ends up getting it is the person who wanted it more, whether somebody else thinks they wanted it more or not. if they wanted it more, they would be the one holding it. that's how i look at it.

[adaml]

Are you an only child? Just curious.

[nesworld]

the nesworld2 account was used because I used my laptop which I guess I registered on the forum with back in January, after failing to get my password for the NESWORLD user...

A total of 9 prototypes, of which 2 (maybe 3) are unreleased, are being sent to my brother who is visiting some friends in California. When he return Denmark around August 4th, I'll be holding the carts in my hands and will be able to give you all the details on these babies.

I can't/won't promise you rom dumps, if I can dump them, I'll of course do it, and you people will get to play them sooner or later.

Collectors are odd people, yeah including me, we love checking out an unreleased game which we do not own ourselves, but contribute so others can play our unreleased games? fuck no! but we still like to play those other unreleased games... and IF we had to contribute, we damn better get a buttload of cash or even another prototype cartridge before parting with a rom. I decided to change that double morale for my own part atleast, by releasing both Escape from Atlantis and Poke Block, without asking a dime, heck I didn't even ask for a "thank you" but got a ton anyway. The only reason CueStick isn't available is the fact that I've been unable to dump it, and my fear of it getting lost in the mail if I sent it to be dumped, I've already lost the one final CueStick ever known to exist.

I'm not too concerned about CueStick catching bitrot as it contains OTW EPROMS, so there's no chance of them being erased in the near future...

You'd like to know who made these? Well I'd like to keep that to myself for now, mostly to protect the person selling me these. All I can say is that they're unlicensed, some comming from a Taiwanese outlet others from an american developer.

[nesman85]

Are you an only child? Just curious.
nope. are you?

[nesworld]

Nesman, how could they devalue? there will only be one real proto out there even if the rom was released. Sure it will devalue in the eyes to egomaniacs (not saying you or buyatari are such) who get a boner of knowing they're the only ones in the world being able to play "X" game...

ROM released or not, I'd still pay the same ammount of money for... say California Raisins, or even the New Kids on the Block game if a proto of that one exist...

[adaml]

Martin, I look forward to seeing what you have. The last couple of years have been really exciting for the discovery of NES protos. Hopefully the trend continues.

nesman85, I am not an only child either.

[adaml]

Nesman, how could they devalue? there will only be one real proto out there even if the rom was released. Sure it will devalue in the eyes to egomaniacs (not saying you or buyatari are such) who get a boner of knowing they're the only ones in the world being able to play "X" game...

ROM released or not, I'd still pay the same ammount of money for... say California Raisins, or even the New Kids on the Block game if a proto of that one exist...

Gotta agree with Martin here. All 3 Panesian titles are dumped, yet these go for buttloads of $$ on eBay. Same with Stadium Events.

I can honestly say, if I had something unreleased, I wouldn't care if it got dumped or released. I'd do it at the requester's expense, of course, but I would want to share it with others.

[nesworld]

Well there's a reason why the Panesians sell for so much on ebay...
Horny teenagers who pump up prices while wanking with the other hand... :P

[nesman85]

stadium events and the panesians are on the US release list, so you can't have a complete collection without them, and a lot of people are going for the complete set. i think that's why they go for so much.
once a proto is released, it just loses its coolness to me. not all of its coolness of course, but a lot of it. i experimented with releasing 1 rom, it wasn't unreleased or anything special, but now that its out there owning the original doesn't seem so cool. i also don't particularly like how the people who dump the cart get most of the "praise" instead of the person who paid hundreds for it and allowed it to be dumped (but that's another worm can).

[nesworld]

so you won't release a rom unless people praise and kiss your ass?...

[nesman85]

i won't release anymore roms because it causes my cart to lose some of its coolness. i would like people to at least know that i was the one who let the cart be dumped. i'm not saying that i think people who let their roms be released should have their asses kissed, but i think if there is any ass kissing, the person with the cart should get theirs kissed more than the dumper. i guess i just have the personality type that giving stuff away for people to enjoy doesn't give me pleasure. i don't get a good feeling from giving money to bums either. :/

[DogP]

Well... just to warn you... OTP EPROMs are just as vulnerable to bitrot as a standard EPROM... the only difference between the two is that the OTP doesn't have a window on the top, and if you have that covered, it's just as safe as an OTP... all OTP is less vulnerable to is accidental erasure if the sticker is removed (or if they used a crappy sticker). Bitrot is something completely different, even mask roms get bitrot, that's why even final production carts that contain mask roms still fail from bitrot.

And the reason why I think dumping and releasing a proto (or rare) ROM could devalue a cart is because there are two different types of people... collectors and gamers... it just happens that usually it's the collectors with tons of money, and they don't care whether they could play it on an unofficial copy, because they want to be the one with the official copy... but then there's gamers, and some of them have lots of money, but they spend it on other things because all they care about is playing the game, which they can do if they have the ROM. I personally fall under both, but probably more of a gamer because I like to have a complete collection, but I'm not going to spend tons of money if I can have a copy of a game for free. I mean it's a video game... it's meant to be played, not just collected... that's what things like baseball cards are for.

DogP

[Buyatari]

There is no doubt in my mind that an undumped un-shared proto will sell for more than a dumped and downloaded one.

In prototype collecting and possibly all of collecting the ULTIMATE find is an unreleased undumped proto.

You can't find anything better than that. If you were working a deal and could only pick one proto would you pick the proto thats already out there or one no has seen before? Obviously, they are a step above dumped protos. Horders want to add it to their collection and Dumpers want to add the ROM to their collection but everyone can agree its more appealing than a dumped released proto.

The biggest problem with prototypes is that they can be faked. I couldn't tell a newly made proto from one made in 1990. Some of you claim that you can but will you be able to years from now if they continue to apprecaite in value and the "experts" start doing them? Thats when the really good ones start to pop up.

FInd a serious NES collector, who would be willing to drop $1,000.00 or more on a proto. Ask if they would pay the same ammount if a proto was dumped and see what they say. Its a very small pool of people who spend this much so even if ONE of them would decline to purchase it the price will drop. I can name 3 right off the top of my head. DreamTr, NESgod and myself I'm sure there are others as well.

As far as value is concerned, when a proto is dumped and downloaded 2 major things happen.

1. People who want it get it. We have all heard of supply and demand.

2. It leaves the door open for fakes which would also reduce the value and possibly bring your cart into question. If its the only one no one will doubt its real but when people start to get burned by that specific title then yours also has to be proved and what if you can't ?

Those of you who aren't Atari collectors wouldn't know how Best Electronics made fake copies of Quadrun prototypes and how now "real" copies of Quadrun sell at a fraction of what they should.

You also wouldn't know that unreleased Atari 2600 protos which are out there sell for maybee $500.00 max and as cheap as $150.00 (there are a few exceptions) Unreleased protos which no one has seen sometimes break the 2k mark.

Yes , the proto is still a proto if its dumped but its no longer one of a kind and its not worth as much. In general any NES proto is hard to find and the prices are still in a state of settling down so its hard to see. If you look to an older system like Atari 2600 which has had more time to settle down you will see clearly that undumped protos sell for way more every time.

I guess if you were going to keep the proto forever dumping your proto wouldn't matter at all (from a money standpoint). If there is the slightest chance that you would sell in the future you'd be shooting yourself in foot to released to ROM. I guess if you paid 50 cents at the thrift and can justify it go right ahead but if you spent a thousand bucks don't expect to get your money back down the road.

Adam

[portnoyd]

First off, please distinguish between dumping and releasing. Dumping puts the game into a file, releasing takes said file to the masses.

Wow, lot of posts on this topic. I could reply to everyone's message, but I will just throw out points...

It's all about the difference between gamer and collector, and how much someone mixes of the two. We have adaml, the 100% gamer, and buyatari, the closest person on this thread to 100% collector. So what separates them?

Greed/Vanity

Let's be honest. (And for those of you playing at home, I will not absolve myself of the preceeding. Bonus point to those who want to play the hypocrite game) It's all about the look-at-me factor and the cash value.

Collectors hide behind the "I spent X amount of money - I can't lose what I invested!" defense and the "If everyone has it, it's not special anymore" defense. Actually, they're too concerned about their precious money and the preservation of the common knowledge that they're the guy with game X.

The proto is still going to be worth money after dumping, no matter how much a collector denies it will. It IS an unreleased proto. In time, all protos will be dead, and you'll be left with a dead cart and a file you backed up anyway.

Which you don't have the right to own. Technically.

And the money you spent is just money. Let it go. If you could afford to buy this game, your survival CLEARLY isn't dependent on straining your cash flow. More to life than money, shame a lot of people in this world don't see that way. "Said by someone who must not have a lot of it". Yep, that's correct. Glad I'm not that jaded.

dave

[Buyatari]

We have adaml, the 100% gamer, and buyatari, the closest person on this thread to 100% collector. So what separates them?

Greed/Vanity


Nope thats where you are wrong. Both sides are greedy they just want different things.

You say I have no right to own it and you may be right but you have no right to the download yet you still want it. We are both greedy and well there is nothing wrong with that. This is America after all. :)

I am a collector. No doubt about it. I'm in it for the game of the hussle. In it to see who can be the quickest and come out on top. Its in my blood and its how I pay my rent and its my only job.

I make no excuses. Thats basiclly what a true collector is. It seems that the only difference is that a collector can accept a gamer for what he is but a gamer can't accept a collector. As if the collectors are out there JUST to give the gamers a hard time. If its ok to play the stock market for money it should be ok to play the proto market for money. Its just a conflict of interest between the two groups.

BTW: When I speak of dump I mean dumped and passed around like an ex-girlfriend in high school. Merely dumping the cart wouldn't decrease the value if no one else had access to it.

Adam

[adaml]

Then I guess there are greedy collectors and non-greedy collectors.

By the way, how is the game-playing adaml considered as greedy as the game-collecting buyatari? How can you say I'm greedy because I want to play a game?? I express no desire to own the game.

Example: If you told me the game was at my nearest Blockbuster video I would go rent it, play through it, and most likely share my experience with the game with others. I would even bring it back afterwards. Can you say the same thing?

I feel a bit like Indy..."It belongs in a museum"

[TheRedEye]

Geez, where to begin.

Let's just start with Raisins, since it's a hot topic of discussion. I think I can fancy myself somewhat of an expert at this point (anyone care to argue?), so let's break it down:

California Raisins, undumped - $1,000+
California Rainsins, dumped - ~$500 (Brandon? Clarification?)

For those merely concerned with the money aspect...that's a $500 difference. $500 fucking dollars. I don't know about most of you, but I make more than that in a week. You're more concerned about a week's worth of pay than you are about the joy of gaming, and this absolutely repulses me.

Dumping the game, getting it out there: everyone (myself included, call me greedy if you must) gets to play a gem that, in some cases, they've waited for for YEARS. It's a topic of discussion, it gets people excited, people start playing their NES more...it's fun. Which is what, mistake me if I'm wrong, most people get out of a video gaming hobby.

Not dumping a game, keeping it to yourself: You save/make upwards of a week's worth of pay, and you get vain bragging rights.

This is what I suggest: you money grubbing retards, go collect baseball cards or something. That's where the real money is. Let the rest of us enjoy our hobby without having to scramble cash and lose sleep over some asshole getting the game for top dollar and keeping it to himself.

Meanwhile, me and the rest of my crew are doing our damndest to enjoy our hobby and still pay rent. It's difficult, but we're getting along nicely.

And so, let me announce my plans. I've mentioned Raisins. Yes, I dumped it. I have the ROM. You will too, on August 1st, thanks to Lost Levels (http://www.lostlevels.org). It's merely one of FIFTEEN games we have for you so far, and I'm about to obtain a sixteenth that will knock you on your asses. Yes, that's right, sixteen unreleased NES games. Am I bragging? Fuck no. If I gave a rat's ass about what people knew I had, I would have mentioned this a long time ago.

Unlike some people, we understand the joy in playing games. This hobby isn't a fucking business, it's a supposed to be FUN. If you need to pay your rent, I'd appreciate not doing so at the expense of others. Me and the rest of the crew have lost a hell of a lot of money on this project, and I don't see that stopping anytime soon.

So please, I beg you. Stay the fuck out of my hobby. The money's not as good as most others, and you're pissing a lot of people off. I'm tired of others profiting off of games they don't own. And don't you dare call me greedy. I'm in massive credit card debt thanks to loving my hobby, and having to battle people like you over who gets to play a game.

Disgusted, frustrated, and a wee bit idealistic, I remain:

-TheRedEye

[Buyatari]

California Raisins, undumped - $1,000+
California Rainsins, dumped - ~$500 (Brandon? Clarification?)

For those merely concerned with the money aspect...that's a $500 difference. $500 fucking dollars.

I never stated that California Raisins should or should not have been dumped. Thats up to the guy who finds it. I did, however, say that the value has decreased even if I wasn't part of the picture and many people disagreed with me. So it seems that you concur with my statement that prototypes when dumped do decrease in value. Now wether or not this should be a factor when someone dumps a game is another debate.

Ok lets go with the $500.00 thing for a bit.

If a collector were to find another unreleased proto and he was offered $500.00 not to dump it would you consider that collector greedy for taking the money? I wouldn't blame the guy either way. Thats up to him and thats basiclly what the choice of dumping or not dumping comes down to IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE. <---notice this was stressed

So tell me this. When a collector/gamer finds an unreleased proto and pays decent money because he himself wants it bad enough to pay the money for it WHY should he HAVE TO foot the bill so everyone else can play for free? Why do those who never heard of the game uptill now have THE GODGIVEN RIGHT to play it and he not have the right to keep an item he paid for in any matter he chooses?

I have no problem if someone does this or someone doesn't do this. I do have a problem when others tell him thats what he should do because thats whats right. Lets not get all holy here.

No one is really "supposed" to have any of this stuff. Collectors aren't "supposed" to have the cart and gamers aren't "supposed" to have the ROM. To say one side has more right is crazy. No one has any right. Since no one has any right it comes down to who finds it and thats the way it has been. Deal with it. Don't chastize those with a different set of goals wants or needs.


So please, I beg you. Stay the fuck out of my hobby. The money's not as good as most others, and you're pissing a lot of people off. I'm tired of others profiting off of games they don't own.

Ok so theres a couple stements here. Lets break it down and I'll address these one at a time

1. I have no right to collect games.
2. This is YOUR hobby and other gamers have more right to the hobby than I and people likeminded.
3. I am somehow interfering with your hobby.
4. Video games aren't very profitable
5. I am profiting off games I don't own.

I am not trying to put words in your mouth. This is just my understanding of what you have said. If you disagree with any of the previous 5 statements I'll gladly listen and respond to what you did in fact mean.

Number 1. Absolute bullshit. I have as much right as anyone and you shouldn't tell anyone what they can and can't do based on your difference of opionion.

Number 2. Again this is bullshit. I've been collecting for years. Pre-Ebay baby. When my first store was robbed and I lost everything. I started my second store with the sale of a single prototype for the Atari 2600. This is no one's hobby. The hobby is big enough for everyone.

Number 3. I interfere no more than the guy who interferes with me by outbidding me on eBay. Its called free ecomomy. I'd also like to point out that I never cost you one single dollar on any prototype you currently own. I was never once involved in any bidding war which ended up costing you more money. Its always been one of my goals to track down an unreleased undumped NES prototype. Now that I have it I don't have much interest in the others out there. There is no way I could get them all so I won't even try. One is enough for me. People who know mw know I've been trying to get one for a LONG TIME. Thats not to say I wouldn't trade this for another or buy a 2nd one and sell the 1st one. And its not to say that if I needed the money down the road I wouldn't sell it but this is all theorethical.

Number 4: I beg to differ. I own a video game store and this is my profession. Good or bad I'm stuck with it for now and I don't think I do that bad at it. The baseball card market is crap. 1st off I hate sports 2nd of all the time to make money on sport cards has come and gone. I do believe that the time to make money in video games is but yet to come. I honestly enjoy collecting video games more than other hobby and I've tried a few out in the past. Stamps, coins, autographs, sports cards, comic books, pez , McDonalds toys and action figures to name the ones I can think of right now. For the record I don't believe there is much money to be made in prototypes anyway unless you buy one cheap and do a quick flip. The odds of finding one in the first place are very slim unless you put more work into it than I am willing to. I believe the long term "real money" will be on MINT complete released titles.

Number 5. Hmm this is a big one I think I'll have to break it down a bit further.

5a.-> If I don't own the intellectual property of a video game I shouldn't make money off it.

Well how about released games? I don't own the intellectual property rights to Stadium Events. Do I have the right to sell the copy I bought at the thrift store? Am I taking advantage of my fellow gamer by selling it for $200.00 when it retailed for $50.00?

5b.-> Somehow I am making this money off unreleased prototypes.

I have bought many and sold very few protos. The only modern unreleased proto I ever sold was for the same ammount I paid for it and I sold it to Good Deal Games with the understanding they would try to get it "out there". The other was an Atari 2600 proto called Polo. One of 6 carts sent to Bloomingdales to promote a new colone "Polo". It was the only one to survive as far as anyone knows. It was worth more than just a regular proto due to this event. It wasn't a lab loaner. This game was sent out of the factory to promote both Atari and Polo. I sold it to Marco and yes I made quite a bit off that one , however at the time I sold it, the ROM had been secured for the Stella Got New Brain CD via the game author so it was "out there" but still unreleased.

5c.-> If I WERE to profit off of an unreleased game in the future it would be wrong.

I still don't see how its more wrong to sell a cart containing released data versus a cart containing unreleased data. Unless of course you believe that it is the property of Nintendo and should be sent back to them.

And how do you mean profit? Do you mean just by buying from one collector and selling to another? Most protos I buy I never sell. I've sold very few and in those instances where I bought and then later sold you still have a buyer and a seller if you remove me as middleman. Is it no longer ok for anyone to buy or sell protos at all?


And so, let me announce my plans. I've mentioned Raisins. Yes, I dumped it. I have the ROM. You will too, on August 1st, thanks to Lost Levels. It's merely one of FIFTEEN games we have for you so far, and I'm about to obtain a sixteenth that will knock you on your asses. Yes, that's right, sixteen unreleased NES games. Am I bragging? Fuck no. If I gave a rat's ass about what people knew I had, I would have mentioned this a long time ago.


Frank this is all great news. Many people here will enjoy seeing what you have.


Unlike some people, we understand the joy in playing games. This hobby isn't a fucking business, it's a supposed to be FUN. If you need to pay your rent, I'd appreciate not doing so at the expense of others. Me and the rest of the crew have lost a hell of a lot of money on this project, and I don't see that stopping anytime soon.


I understand the joy of playing games but trust me the proto I own will give you joy ONLY because its an unreleased NES proto. You will get no joy from actual game play. If you want to swing on by just let me know you can play anything you want. If you are too far away then hook up with me at the next gaming event. Let's not confuse things here though. I make my money off video games to be more specific off the re-sale of used games. The only real money I've made off protos was of an Atari game which was already "out there" quite some time ago.

I have ONE NES unreleased proto and thats all I ever really wanted. I don't want it dumped because to me its my NES holy grail up there with my gold NWC cart. If you must know its not even complete you can't really "play it" anyway. You can't say that me owning a single prototype and refusing to dump it has cost you any money. You also can't say that me owning this single prototype is the wrench which will bring about the fall of the hobby.

Just let me have my game and move on. Agree with me or not. If you want to check it out I'd be happy to let you and don't get me started again because I LOVE to argue.

Adam

[portnoyd]

1. I have no right to collect games.
2. This is YOUR hobby and other gamers have more right to the hobby than I and people likeminded.
3. I am somehow interfering with your hobby.
4. Video games aren't very profitable
5. I am profiting off games I don't own.

I am not trying to put words in your mouth. This is just my understanding of what you have said. If you disagree with any of the previous 5 statements I'll gladly listen and respond to what you did in fact mean.

Number 1. Absolute bullshit. I have as much right as anyone and you shouldn't tell anyone what they can and can't do based on your difference of opionion.

Number 2. Again this is bullshit. I've been collecting for years. Pre-Ebay baby. When my first store was robbed and I lost everything. I started my second store with the sale of a single prototype for the Atari 2600. This is no one's hobby. The hobby is big enough for everyone.

Number 3. I interfere no more than the guy who interferes with me by outbidding me on eBay. Its called free ecomomy. I'd also like to point out that I never cost you one single dollar on any prototype you currently own. I was never once involved in any bidding war which ended up costing you more money. Its always been one of my goals to track down an unreleased undumped NES prototype. Now that I have it I don't have much interest in the others out there. There is no way I could get them all so I won't even try. One is enough for me. People who know mw know I've been trying to get one for a LONG TIME. Thats not to say I wouldn't trade this for another or buy a 2nd one and sell the 1st one. And its not to say that if I needed the money down the road I wouldn't sell it but this is all theorethical.

Number 4: I beg to differ. I own a video game store and this is my profession. Good or bad I'm stuck with it for now and I don't think I do that bad at it. The baseball card market is crap. 1st off I hate sports 2nd of all the time to make money on sport cards has come and gone. I do believe that the time to make money in video games is but yet to come. I honestly enjoy collecting video games more than other hobby and I've tried a few out in the past. Stamps, coins, autographs, sports cards, comic books, pez , McDonalds toys and action figures to name the ones I can think of right now. For the record I don't believe there is much money to be made in prototypes anyway unless you buy one cheap and do a quick flip. The odds of finding one in the first place are very slim unless you put more work into it than I am willing to. I believe the long term "real money" will be on MINT complete released titles.

Number 5. Hmm this is a big one I think I'll have to break it down a bit further.

5a.-> If I don't own the intellectual property of a video game I shouldn't make money off it.

Well how about released games? I don't own the intellectual property rights to Stadium Events. Do I have the right to sell the copy I bought at the thrift store? Am I taking advantage of my fellow gamer by selling it for $200.00 when it retailed for $50.00?

5b.-> Somehow I am making this money off unreleased prototypes.
5c.-> If I WERE to profit off of an unreleased game in the future it would be wrong.


1. You treat game collecting as a business, instead of a hobby. Your harping on game value shows this.

2. Maybe they do have more right to the hobby. Video games were designed SOLELY to be played, and gamers who want to play games could be said to have more right to it, then someone out to make a profit and collect for future profit.

3. You WILL cost us big cash if we ever want to see the Arcadia VI. True?

4. You, of course, construed what Frank said into something else. He said "the money's not as good as most others". He never said it wasn't profitable. Your store is irrelevant to the matter, because you don't sell to collectors, you sell to softcore/hardcore PURE gamers, who would rarely consider game collecting as something anyone would ever do.
1. You treat game collecting as a business, instead of a hobby. Your harping on game value shows this.

2. Maybe they do have more right to the hobby. Video games were designed SOLELY to be played, and gamers who want to play games could be said to have more right to it, then someone out to make a profit and collect for future profit.

3. You WILL cost us big cash if we ever want to see the Arcadia VI. True?

4. You, of course, construed what Frank said into something else. He said "the money's not as good as most others". He never said it wasn't profitable. Your store is irrelevant to the matter, because you don't sell to collectors, you sell to softcore/hardcore PURE gamers, who would rarely consider game collecting as something anyone would ever do.

Potential hypocrite alert! You say you've never interfered with a proto sale, yet you also mention that you've been looked for a unreleased NES proto for a long time. Well, which is it? Hell, to get that the Arcadia VI, you sure as hell butted in, and if you didn't sneak the proto out of the owner's hands, it would have cost Frank more money if he did get it.

5a. Now we're into the Gamestop/Funcoland area. Of course you have the right. You add in released games, like that's the topic at hand.

5b. Another PHA. "Somehow I am making this money off unreleased prototypes." and "I sold it to Marco and yes I made quite a bit off that one". Ding ding ding. You made money quite well. What makes you think you'd stop with the Arcadia VI? Now you've got a NES proto, and whole new market to farm it to.

5c. "If I WERE to profit off of an unreleased game in the future it would be wrong." At least you got that part right. I just hope you stick to it. It's ok to buy and sell protos, obviously, even if eBay doesn't think so.


The only real money I've made off protos was of an Atari game which was already "out there" quite some time ago.

Didn't you say you opened an entire fucking store off of that sale? That's a pretty big chunk of change.


You will get no joy from actual game play. If you want to swing on by just let me know you can play anything you want.

Vanity.

dave

[DreamTR]

All I have to say is that California Raisins is not getting offers of more than $500, which to me is a lot as it is considered it is dumped, and it was getting offers of near 3K when no one had it. Don't use Panesians and NWC as an example, those are not the same thing by any means, these unrelased protos with cheap boards and bad labels (if any) are not really the "worth" of the proto. it's the data, what's what makes the value go down when more than one person has them, it's not the same thing....

[Buyatari]

1st off I didn't butt in into that deal. If anything Frank was the guy butting in (even though he didn't realize it)

I was in contact with the seller BEFORE he posted here. In fact I've been in conatct with him on different things for some time.

He IMs me out of the blue and tells me he has these NES protos. I told him I was interested but he was buzy and the conversation was pretty short. He did list the prototypes he had and I told him to name his price.

He posted to the message boards. I didn't see this. But anyway he did so to determine the price that they were worth.

He IMs me with the price (the highest offer +$100.00) I said ok and Paypaled him the money. Now I had nothing to do with him posting here that was his idea. Don't get mad at me because you thought you had a chance on this particular one. I suppose that was his research for giving me the price he wanted.

Now this holier than thou crap has to go.

A prototype cart is just that. A material object. Its not a child or small animal its an object. You don't have to worry about it not living up to its potential.
You don't have to feed it or worry about its feelings and it doesn't have a purpose. Now the guy who happens to own it may have a purpose but the cart itself just kinda sits there like everyother object.

This is a hobby. That doesn't mean that you can't make money from time to time. Metal detecting is a hobby and yet they all make money when they can off the hobby they enjoy. For them it ADDS to experience. I'm certainly less money motivated in this hobby than the avg metal detecter guy.

Everyone on these message boards is at least PART gamer and at least PART collector. Some are more of one than the other. If you think you are better than those who mostly collect than it is you who need to get overyourself. Go ahead an be-rate the mostly collectors in an attempt to turn them more gamer. Bashing them only pushes them back furter. Telling them they are wrong and have no right makes no sense and also pushes them further away.

I'm not in it just for the money or just for the glory or just for the race its a combination of many things. The biggest reason is that I enjoy it. I've certainly spent more money collecting than I have selling collectable video games. So its not FOR MONEY I do this.


1. You treat game collecting as a business, instead of a hobby. Your harping on game value shows this.

Actually I don't treat the collecting aspect solely as a business. I don't turn a profit on the collectable items I have bought. I've spent FAR more than I have ever made.


2. Maybe they do have more right to the hobby. Video games were designed SOLELY to be played, and gamers who want to play games could be said to have more right to it, then someone out to make a profit and collect for future profit.

As I said before video games are objects. They don't have hopes and dreams. Prototypes were designed and their creaters did have a purpose for them. The purpose was to illustrate the finished product to determine if it should be released or not. The answer was no and the purpose the game company had for them was completed.

This would make a great Disney movie. We could set it to Pinoccio. The woodcutter is a collector/gamer but mostly gamer. And the proto has dreams of being shared by all by becoming a real game. What was that amusement park called never never land? That would be the collectors. The evil evil money grubbing collectors. lol


3. You WILL cost us big cash if we ever want to see the Arcadia VI. True?

No. I'm not out to milk you (the gamers). If you want to see it its free. The offers I had to sell it I passed on and if I do part with it it will mostly likely be traded for other protos it just so happens the guy who has the most items I want only has interest in undumped protos. I actually look forward to the day I trade it to him so you can bug him about it.


Potential hypocrite alert! You say you've never interfered with a proto sale, yet you also mention that you've been looked for a unreleased NES proto for a long time. Well, which is it? Hell, to get that the Arcadia VI, you sure as hell butted in, and if you didn't sneak the proto out of the owner's hands, it would have cost Frank more money if he did get it.

Well DreamTR has offered me a couple unreleased undumped NES protos in the past and I passed on both because one was a sports game and the other was in Japanese. This is the first proto I ever engaged in serious talks over and make no mistake I was the first person here to hear about them. I didn't butt in.


Now we're into the Gamestop/Funcoland area. Of course you have the right. You add in released games, like that's the topic at hand.

And you totally missed my point. Show me how they are any different. If I have the right to resell used released games for profit then I have the right to resell used unreleased games.


Didn't you say you opened an entire fucking store off of that sale? That's a pretty big chunk of change.

Yes it was.


Vanity.


Ha. It may be partially true. I believe anyone who spends over say $100.00 for a cart has some degree of vanity to them. At least I don't consider my self better than those who don't. I don't say I have more right to this hobby than they do and I don't try to tell them what they are supposed to do. I'll be happy to tell them the consequences but I'll leave the decision to them.

Adam

[digitalpress]

I've read this entire aggravating thread and have just one comment to make.

Anyone who thinks Adam is "greedy" simply doesn't know the man. Adam has been more generous to myself and the classic gaming community collectively than anyone else in this thread. He has donated time, goods, and money in more ways than you'll ever know.

Continue to debate your side of the story, but this is not a person whose moral character should ever be questioned. I couldn't get through this thread without speaking up.

Carry on.

[nesworld]

hmmm hasn't this thread gotten a little out of hand? and off topic of what it was supposed to be about? :roll:

hmmm heh

[adaml]

So tell me this. When a collector/gamer finds an unreleased proto and pays decent money because he himself wants it bad enough to pay the money for it WHY should he HAVE TO foot the bill so everyone else can play for free? Why do those who never heard of the game uptill now have THE GODGIVEN RIGHT to play it and he not have the right to keep an item he paid for in any matter he chooses?

I have no problem if someone does this or someone doesn't do this. I do have a problem when others tell him thats what he should do because thats whats right. Lets not get all holy here.

No one is really "supposed" to have any of this stuff. Collectors aren't "supposed" to have the cart and gamers aren't "supposed" to have the ROM. To say one side has more right is crazy. No one has any right. Since no one has any right it comes down to who finds it and thats the way it has been. Deal with it. Don't chastize those with a different set of goals wants or needs.

Adam

Forgive me if I sound like I dislike buyatari. I don't even know you. After reading the above 3 paragraphs I see exactly where you are coming from. However...

I hope you can see where I am coming from. As I mentioned before, I honestly consider myself as perhaps the biggest NES player/fiend in the world when it comes to actually playing the game. I've made it a life-long quest to play through every single NES game and am a mere 29 games away from the goal.

So, forgive me if I get excited/pissed when I see something like Arcadia VI, a game that had only been mentioned on Jeff D's unreleased NES page and nowhere else, fall into the hands of someone who will not release it. I concede that buyatari has every right to do whatever he wants with the game because he paid the money to purchase it and it is now his property. I agree that he has every right to resent people telling him what he should do with his newly required property. I dislike anyone telling me what to do.

However, it just drives me nuts knowing that this one-of-a-kind item will NEVER get to be played by the general public. I guess that is something that I have to live with. Still, you have to see how it just drives an NES lunatic like myself crazy to not be able to play that thing. My well of NES games to play is running dry and any prospect of a new game to play for my life-long hobby brings me joy that I'm sure a lot of you can understand.

This is why I can relate more to TheRedEye and his gang of miscreants/gods who spend their hard earned cash to reel in the big fish for the good of the whole and just get a bit peeved at the collector who doesn't want to share.

It's just human nature to get pissed at not being able to attain something that you want so bad.

[sniperCCJVQ]

I just wanna add to this exciting topic that i dont care about people who think prototype lost value if they are dumped and for those who are able to put a boatload on ebay for it, we living in a free country.

But i think those proto need to be dumped one day or another because of the historic aspect and the code need to be preserved again bitrot (even if bitrot doesnt happend very often).

[Captain Wrong]

Sorry, I can't help but throw my 2 cents in here.

Conversations like this make me wish I could find an undumped holy grail NES proto so I could destroy it on webcam. Honestly, I don't see where people get off with this sense of entitlement whenever a new game is found. Yeah, some people enjoy dumping a new game and sharing it with people, some people don't. That's their perogative.

You may not agree with the reasoning behind somone's decision to do what they want with what they have but that's just the way it goes. No one has more right to this hobby than anyone else nor does the owner of a proto "owe" it to anyone to share that game with anyone. If they want to, that's cool, but if they don't, that's ok too. It's a free market and if you don't like it, you should have ponyed up when the cart was on the market.

It may drive you nuts to know a game has been discovered and you can't play it, but guess what? That's life and it's full of dissapointments.

And I challenge anyone who has this profit is evil sort of mindset to sell me a rare cart for a dollar. Really, put your money where your mouth is. I'll offer a crisp US one dollar bill for any Panesians, a Stadium Events or a NWC if someone really thinks profit is so evil. After all, those are old games and hell, they just gave those NWC carts away so charging anything for them at all is making a profit, isn't it?

Really, I don't want anyone to take me the wrong way here. I appreciate all the work The Red Eye does and everyone else for that matter who is sharing what they have. But it just bugs me when people start screaming like they are owed something because they are NES fans or whatever.

OK, back to your mudslinging.

[ArnoldRimmer83]

There seems to be nothing that causes anger within gaming hobbiyists more than prototypes. For those who want to play the game, it's usually the thrill of playing a game that they were never meant to. I think it's just a good feeling to see a new game available to play on your favorite system, even if it is crap. Of course once in awhile an unreleased game will actually be decent. I always liked Robocop vs the Terminator.

Admittedly I'm not as obsessive about protos being dumped as I used to. I used to lose sleep over things like this. I have mellowed out a bit, though it does still irk me once in awhile when a proto is hoarded by a collector. It is ultimately up to the collector in the end over the fate of the proto, it just feels like a nice gesture to let the game be available to the public. In all honesty a majority of people who download the rom, were most likely not going to buy the proto in the first place, dumped or undumped. Several people just don't have that kind of cash, or don't care about owning a proto. Or they may just not feel comfortable with one, I know I wouldn't. Being in charge of a one of a kind item would cause me a lot of stress, should I accidently step on it or whatever.

I greatly respect the amount of work TheRedEye and crew do in trying to obtain these protos and get them preserved and available to the public. The love they have of the Nes is huge, and the effort they go through to get ahold of them is very admirable. These kind of actions are the ones that excite me. A proto being discovered by a collector who isn't ever going to share it with the public, might get a small "that's interesting" reaction from me, but afterwards none cause since I'll never play it why should I give a crap about him owning it?

I believe in the dumping and sharing of protos for historical reasons also. Some of us actually do care about playing the games completely through and are even interested in the stories behind the game from developers and such if they were ever available. Yes a majority are probably rom whores who will download the game and let it rot on their harddrive for all eternity, but not every fan feels this way.

In an attempt to get back on topic, I look forward to seeing some info on those games Acey. That American Crisis one sounds interesting just for the title.

[Buyatari]

Joe I thank you for the kind words. This debate isn't about me though.

Every time an unreleased proto pops up we see it rear its ugly head. The debate cools off and waits for the next one.

I won't let it die this time.

I'm still waiting to hear how anyone here has more right to have the ROM than I have to own the cart.

I'm still waiting to hear how I have no right to be in this hobby.

The logic is twisted and if anyone would take a step back and look at it they should be able to see.


I hope you can see where I am coming from. As I mentioned before, I honestly consider myself as perhaps the biggest NES player/fiend in the world when it comes to actually playing the game. I've made it a life-long quest to play through every single NES game and am a mere 29 games away from the goal.

Now this I can apprecaite. If more people responded this way I think you would a greater number of protos released. Most people just come off as spoiled kids pissed off that there is ONE game out there somewhere that they can't play this second.

I've been around a long time and chances are if you stick with it we will run into each other. It wouldn't take that long for you to add this to your list of played through NES games. If this game was WANTED by millions I'd consider dumping it for them but lets face it there are only a small handfull of people who even care its been found. The ones that really want to play it will get that chance.

Adam

[portnoyd]

Going through this, I never said I was not what I said collectors are. Holier than thou I am not. I'm as greedy and vain as the best of them - and I know some people have seen me in action to prove this.

1. I didn't know about the previous deal. Sorry about that. When you see a post on a board like that, from someone who rarely posts, what else can you think?

2. The part of the making money off of unreleased protos is something I won't discuss, or I won't be the one to discuss. It's not just selling from collector to collector....

3. I was just stating the truth that separates gamer and collector. Sorry if you took offense to it, but it is the honest truth - don't deny it. And I forgot the third component that separates collector and games: OCD.

4. "Prototypes were designed and their creaters did have a purpose for them. The purpose was to illustrate the finished product to determine if it should be released or not. " - again, skirting around the issue. The GAME was designed to be played. If it never made it to market for one reason or another, that's the company perogative.

5. "And you totally missed my point. Show me how they are any different." Unreleased games were never sold by the company that owns the rights to them.

6. You do have every right to do with the game as you please, doesn't mean those of us who want to play and have others play it have to like it. ;)

7. I never said YOU, buyatari, specifically had a right not to be in the hobby. I said that gamers have more of a right to it than collectors, as the original purpose of the game itself was to be played.

8. " If more people responded this way I think you would a greater number of protos released. " That's a fallacy, and you know it. Someone who cares about their game's value would hear a greater number asking for it as the same amount as a lesser number.

9. Well, it's obvious. Neither of us have any right to the ROM or the proto cart, technically. But things will keep going as it is. So no, we don't have any more right than you do. We'll keep wanting to see the game (Bring it to PC5.. or ... hehe.... "Game Jam" if you still have it), and you'll do with it as you please.

And if TRE had a chance to counter-offer, he may have had the proto. He just never got that chance. *shrug*

dave

[digitalpress]

"Holier Than Thou": someone who feels every game that's ever been given a line of code has a divine right - a destiny - to be PLAYED. What a joke.

Where does this theory come from? People who design games are doing their JOB, just like you and me. They make their salary from the company they work for, and the company makes their money from you and I, who buy the game when it's released. It's about MONEY, and one thing I'm NOT buying is the concept that every game is automatically by divine right public domain BELONGING in the hands of "gamers".

Get off your high horse. It's a piece of merchandise that was part of a corporate plan that never reached fruition. It's not a homebrew, even if it WAS a labor of love for the designer. Whoever's hands the cart is in obviously cared more about the game than the person who gave it up, and for that reason alone, it is the OWNER'S right to do with it as they please.

Don't misinterpret this - I prefer seeing games get into the hands of gamers, because like everyone else, I love playing stuff that wouldn't have been available without someone's effort to make it so. But if someone's got other plans, good for them. They're just part of the capitalist machine that created the game in the first place.

[TheRedEye]

There's just far too much to sort through here, so I'm going completely off memory. If there's something I fail to address, or some kind of fallacy in what I say, please correct me.

I don't feel any "holier than thou" complex. I'm simply stating my disgust that there should BE any sort of competition in a fun hobby like this. I feel that what I'm doing, yes, is The Right Thing, and I disagree with those who would capitalize on the hobby. But it's merely that. A disagreement. And I'm arguing against it in my own TheRedEye way, which basically involves a lot of cursing and kicking furniture around until I'm heard.

This isn't me being a little pirate and whining. This effects me personally. For instance, the seller of that particular game consistently LIED to me. During my relaxing trip to San Diego, I had to make no less than FIVE trips to the internet kiosk at the Marriot, paying $3 per ten minutes (that's $15 that I simply didn't have, I overdrew my bank account on the goddam thing) simply to check and respond to email. I had to stress over it on my vacation, I had to be around as much as possible, simply because I knew that if I wasn't, I'd lose the game. Over the course of several emails the seller led me on. We "finalized" a deal for $800 on, I believe, Friday. Then I get an email saying he has to cancel the deal, because "his wife doesn't want him selling the games." He says he'll talk to her about it, and asks me to "hang tight!"

Upon arriving home, I find that Adam claims to have the game. I refer to the thread and ask the seller whether or not he sold it. "No," he said, "though he is also interested in purchasing it."

I write an email pleading my case, hoping to appease to his game-loving side. It's worked before. I'm sure the email came across as me badmouthing Adam. Maybe a bit, but that wasn't the intent. The intent was, as I said, to argue my case.

He never replies.

I find out, for sure, that Adam does indeed have it in his hands.

I overdrew my bank account, stressed out on my vacation, and wasted my time simply to give some greedy, lying fuck a gauge on his game's worth so that he could sell it to someone else.

Can you see why someone who believes in the common decency of sharing and who spends more time and energy than he has to get his point across might be absolutely repulsed at the idea of people holding the dollar in higher esteem than the celebration of gaming?

Adam, I have absolutely nothing against you. And I think you know that. I have the utmost respect for you as being the only collector-type who has ever been able to hold his own in an argument against me.

I'm not licking my wounds over one goddam game. I'm sure I'll get to play it, as you said. All that I wish to relay here is my disgust toward capitalism being a factor in a hobby that, I feel, is supposed to be fun, and my request that those who would hinder me and people like Mr. Lamontage up there from being able to experience the joy in playing, exploring, and giving a detailed analysis of what we feel are lost works of art would get into some other, more profitable hobby.

You're ruining our fun.

And as a final note, I know that I put way too much into this. So don't bother trying to talk me down, I'm well aware of the fact.

[Nespit]

ah well let me add my few cents as well.. As some of u know i was one of the first who was against dumping proto's for common use. I even had a petition on my site where ppl could give their opinion.

It is still my opinion that proto's shud be dumped to be preserved for the future in case the eproms die. But I think it should be the owner of the proto decicion wether or not he releases the rom.

And i also think that releasing the rom devalues the proto. No one will pay tons for a unreleased proto of megaman 7 when the rom is available. Plain and simple. Ofcourse, there r ppl who r disagreeing. but fact remains that 90% of the collectors won't pay soo much for a proto when the rom exists.

But the topic all started with martin gettin a bunch of new proto';s including some UR. So Martin, congrats! Hope to ever play them proto's in Real Life! No rom needed here...;-)

[TheRedEye]

Thanks, Neils, that's something I forgot to get across.

I'm not claiming that a prototype will sell for less money once a ROM is dumped. It's completely obvious that it will.

All I'm trying to get across is...WHO CARES? I just can't relate to people who feel that a few hundred dollars is more important than the celebration of gaming.

So please don't misinterpret what I say.

[Nespit]

Oh and just for the record. .I also had contact with him and I offered him a clean 1000 dollars. Without knowing of other offers.

And hell, i only buy stuff for my own collection. Not for the worth of it.. If i would do that, then i can better sell my complete vintage starwars collection and buy all the damn Nintendo stuff i still miss.

Although i keep in mind that spending 2k on a dumped proto is a waiste of money.

[TheRedEye]

Although i keep in mind that spending 2k on a dumped proto is a waiste of money.

...do you just not get it? How much more must I elaborate?

[Nespit]

WTF redeye? I get it, but that is just my opinion. U say it urself. Who cares?

It is an OPINION! everybody has one.

[TheRedEye]

No, you don't get it.

It's more than an opinion, it's a fact. My argument is "who cares?" and your counter is just restating the fact that nobody's going to pay top dollar for something that's already freely available.

I AGREE with you. What I'm asking for elaboration on is why this is more important to you than allowing gamers to enjoy and persue their passion.

[Nespit]

ok.. Mebbe cause i am dutch I don't quite understand what u want to hear.

What i can say is that, if I get a UR in hands, I really don't give a shit about gamers not being able to play cause i won't get it dumped.. Mebbe that sounds a bit selfish and egoistic, but personally i don't care. I am not dumping it only for the reason it devaluates, but also, I am the one and only having the game! that is a feeling that u/me as a collector love! Having a piece no one has! Same i have for the NWC gold when i just got it! i got about 10 mails a day beggin me to get it dumped or sell it. Hell no! I was happy i bought it for a shitload of money and i was able to play it.. as one of the few after such a long time the NWC game was played!

Maybe i am just one of the selfish collectors, but i see it in a different way, i collect for myself. Not for the behalf of others. What i buy, stays in my house, and never leaves my collection. Maybe when i can dump stuff myself int he future, i will change my opinion on this... maybe... But then again. I don't own a real UR proto. Not yet.

[Buyatari]

Well I always welcome a healthy discussion even if its me who ends up under the microscope. It looks like all parties have come to a better understanding of "the other side". Um except Dave who seems to have drifter father away.

First off I am sorry it had to happen this way. Frank you may feel lied cheated and outright used. THAT was wrong. I do apologize for my part in that transaction that may have caused this but also understand I had no idea what was going on anywhere in the world but in my IM window.

I believe the debate over wether a distributed proto sells for less/more/or the same as a undistributed proto is closed. All major parties seem to agree so if you disagree start a seperate thread.

The debate on wether it SHOULD be available to everyone rages on. If you want it released because you just want to play the game then just say so. I can deal with this and can even relate. To say I'm greedy and vain and don't belong in the hobby well you won't convice anyone to dump it that way.

In the end it is my argument that I WILL make it available to as many people as I possibly can without releasing it. You can either yell and say thats not enough or you can accept it and look forward to playing it. If you are REALLY concered about playing it you will get your chance. Imagine a NES game that can only be seen 2 3 or 4 times a year . I'd like to think of it as a rainbow which is rarely seen but always enjoyed. Any extra hype to get people to show up at a yearly gaming event benfits the entire hobby.

Yeah its not the same way you would do it but I'll bebate anyone that its the "wrong way" any day of the week.

Adam

Hmm is this the longest running thread in this forum to date?

[nesworld]

TRE, it's the ego thing, there's just something about owning an unreleased game that no one else can play.... making it something special, wether you like it or not.... simple as that... and ego isn't always a bad thing.

And why should I as a collector spend $400 on something and then just give it out for free? and see my investment devalue? I'm not rich, it takes me a god damn lot of sweat and tears to collect just $400 to spend on videogames at once, so why would I see that money invested just go down the drain?

Yes this is a hobby, yes it's supposed to be fun, but someday this hobby could become quite important, money wise (say if you lost your job)...

But you know me, I've got a foot in boths camps here. I'd like to play all the unreleased stuff, but I don't want to loose money either... damn double morale...

But I've also contributed with 2 protos to the public, one unreleased and one released...

[portnoyd]

Well I always welcome a healthy discussion even if its me who ends up under the microscope. It looks like all parties have come to a better understanding of "the other side". Um except Dave who seems to have drifter father away.

Jesus christ. I'm commenting on what you post... how is that drifting away? My points were based on yours, you know.

How's this?

It's up to the owner what to do, and they're going to do what they want with it. You can try and make your points for keeping or releasing known, but what they do with it is what they will. If you want the game out there bad enough, put your money where your mouth is. Dumped unreleased protos will drop in value, but it's the owner's perogative if they want to take that hit. Neither side has to like how the other side works or does with its acquisitions.

And if you feel my three different things between collector and gamer are the drift away part, fine - they kind of are. But you will never convince me otherwise. If you think this makes me holier than thou, fine, whatever.

Ok, maybe I did drift off. I tried responding to what Joe posted, and I can't for the life of me figure out what he's trying to say, or what his point is or was, other than "He who buys it does what they want.", or even what I was saying previously, or what my point was. It's all kind of lost form.

This is giving me a headache.

dave

[Bratwurst]

Imagine a NES game that can only be seen 2 3 or 4 times a year . I'd like to think of it as a rainbow which is rarely seen but always enjoyed.

Tasty. Never answered my (and many other's) question about at least backing up the things. I do it with everything I own that has important data on it. There's nothing stupid about it, you're not putting all of your eggs in one basket.

I do wonder how collectors might feel about a group of people getting together and 'donating' a sum of money to compensate for the soon-to-be-devalued cart in order to get it dumped and released publically. Touching on the whole monetary investment aspect in that regard. Plus, it dissapates the perception of rom mongers as freeloading bums!

[nesworld]

would only make some collectors more greedy ;)

[adaml]

Defector and American Crisis....

That's all I can tell you right now LOL

Martin, I seriously forgot what this topic was all about. Do you know anything else about these games? I believe you mentioned they were unlicensed, which leads me to believe they are either from the Color Dreams companies, AVE or AGCi, since you have had email ties with people from these 3 companies.

I could be entirely wrong.

I look forward to seeing the screen shots and stuff on nesworld.com

[nesworld]

What can I say... I'm a sucker for unlicensed games :)

I still remember when I got Road Runner from you, hehe, I wanted that game for so long...

Btw, anyone got a spare manual for Road Runner? :)

[Buyatari]

I do wonder how collectors might feel about a group of people getting together and 'donating' a sum of money to compensate for the soon-to-be-devalued cart in order to get it dumped and released publically. Touching on the whole monetary investment aspect in that regard. Plus, it dissapates the perception of rom mongers as freeloading bums!

I would never do that. I personally would consider that wrong. Either I release it or I don't. Honestly, and you can think I'm a BSer on this if you want but if I did sell to someone like Frank whos sole purpose was to use it for release I wouldn't feel right selling it to him for a penny more than I paid. I know its your hobby and you guys work hard on it and I wouldn't try to milk anyone on this that was NEVER my goal. Now if I sold it to someone who was a collector then yeah I'd milk it for all its worth.

However, if someone one day were to market a homebrew (like they do with Atari games at CGE etc you know complete with box and instructions etc) and wanted to use this as a backdrop on that cart I'd consider doing something like this. With a little tweaking he might even be able to make Arcadia IV more complete and playable.

As far as having the ROMs dumped for safety I am not against this. It is a good idea and one I will have to get around to one day.

Adam

[Bratwurst]

I would never do that. I personally would consider that wrong. Either I release it or I don't. Honestly, and you can think I'm a BSer on this if you want but if I did sell to someone like Frank whos sole purpose was to use it for release I wouldn't feel right selling it to him for a penny more than I paid. I know its your hobby and you guys work hard on it and I wouldn't try to milk anyone on this that was NEVER my goal. Now if I sold it to someone who was a collector then yeah I'd milk it for all its worth.

Still, if it's about investment it could be a way to justify the dumping and public release if the collector paid 1k, found the going rate for a dumped game to be 250$, so expected 750$ before he'd let it be copied, and still keep the hard copy. There's no profit in that as he's still 'out' 1k in the end. (The devaluing of the proto figuring in) You've said before you're holding onto it for other reasons but it could apply to other individuals.




As far as having the ROMs dumped for safety I am not against this. It is a good idea and one I will have to get around to one day.


I couldn't fathom anyone feeling otherwise. I was hoping to hear an arguement to the contrary because I'd honestly like to see the rationalization behind never dumping a proto for any reason. (backup)

I'm working on a project right now with at least two dozen rom 'builds' that have been kept pretty much between the developers. If any of them got leaked out in any fashion to the general public before the final build I'd be pretty upset, just in that whole artistic presentation mentality, and relaying my 2 cents on the matter.

[adaml]

What can I say... I'm a sucker for unlicensed games :)

I still remember when I got Road Runner from you, hehe, I wanted that game for so long...


Wow, I forgot all about that...how long ago was that??

Game deals seemed to come a lot easier before eBay. I've been on the net since '95 and have probably even done business deals with a lot of people on this board. I remember finding a Pete Rose Baseball game for the Atari 5200 (or 7800) and ended up selling it to a Songbird fellow. I remember when you could go on eBay and do a search for "NES" and come up with 100 or so in the search results. I remember |tsr letting me borrow his Hot Slots game. Those were the days :)

By the way Martin, nice article on the Raisins game.

[DogP]

Buyatari,

Since I'm kinda unfimiliar with NES protos, I know that they're EPROMs, but are they usually socketed? (I'd assume that they would be, since it's supposed to be for testing - er... temporary use at least). Anyway, I know that you wouldn't trust someone else to dump your protos (I wouldn't either, since they'd get the ROM too), but it's very simple to do, and I have an extra EPROM programmer, if you'd like to borrow it, I'd be willing to send it up to you (or if you're going to be at CGE, I can bring it with me and you can either use it there or ship it back to me). Of course that is if the cart has socketed EPROMs. You just pull the chips, run the program, select the type of chip, stick it in the socket (make sure it's in the right direction), click read, then save the file.

DogP

[Buyatari]

Well I won't be at CGE this year.............but Arcadia IV will be.

Adam

[Buyatari]

DogP - That is a very generous offer. I may have to take you up on that one. Unless someone were to point me in the right direction on what I needed and where I could buy it. Is it an expensive project?

Adam

[DogP]

It's not really that expensive... it's probably cheap for someone that buys prototypes ;) . The programmer is around $100 with everything you need, the one that I'd send you is actually a little more expensive, but the reason I don't use it is because it's not compatible with the chips that I use to program my Virtual Boy games (so it just sits here doing nothing while my cheap homemade one does all the work :P ). It works really well with EPROMs, but the compatibility with other chips is very limited. The site for that is - http://www.ustr.net/epromer5/index.shtml . The homemade one with opensource software is - www.willem.org . That one is pretty slow, but it gets the job done for a lot cheaper.

But seriously, if you want to borrow it, just let me know, it's not doing anything for me right now (although you will need to pick up a parallel cable unless you have one from an old scanner, because the one it came with was crap and caused the read/writes to be wrong). The cable needs to be a fully wired 25 pin cable, or if you'd like, I could pick one up for you and test it first (I'm always running to computer stores).

DogP

[Blackjax]

Don't forget the EPROM puller too. Some may consider them a waste, but if you're working with one of a kind stuff...

In my (probably) vain wait for a change of heart on releasing, I'd hate to see something one-of-a-kind turn into one of the most expensive broken EPROMs in history because of a slip with the screwdriver.

I've only heard of it in one single occasion (and it was non-videogame related) of a socketed EPROM being soldered into place. You may want to watch out for that too

[TheRedEye]

I'm sure you'll laugh at this, but I'll have my copying equipment with me at CGE. If you want, I can back it up in like, less than a minute, without even opening it up.

[nesworld]

removing chips from the board is not an easy task, and trust me your proto will be worth way less if you do that, even if you decide not to release the rom...

Protos with eproms soldered onto the board should not be messed with if you don't have the right equipment.

[DogP]

I personally don't like the EPROM pullers... I've never been able to find one that grips the chip well enough, I've actually had chips where I pull them out, and they fly out of the puller landing on the ground and bending the pins (not a big deal, but don't want to do that to your proto :P ), and if it's really old, the chip is probably gonna be stuck in the socket pretty well... I've used them with mixed experiences... I personally find the best tool just a pretty thin and wide flathead screwdriver to stick between the chip and the socket, then just lightly twist each side until it's loose, then you can pull it out with your fingers. I've also tried using the puller on a thin board, and it started bending so much, I thought it was going to break... that's when I pulled out the screwdriver for sure.

And nesworld... we're talking about chips that are in sockets, not soldered to the board... that's why I said if it's socketed, this would be a good way to do it. Removing a chip from a socket won't devalue it at all, since that's what it's made for, and nobody would be able to tell that it was removed by anyone besides the original people anyway.

DogP

[Buyatari]

http://www.videogameconnection.com/Mvc-001f.jpg

Mike said he would have some more pics up tonight.

As far as the dumping goes I think it can wait till after Vegas. Not that I don't trust you or anything but you did tell me to get the fuck out of your hobby. LOL

Adam

[TheRedEye]

I told you you'd laugh!