Japanese gamers and western games...

[DOAsaturn]

I was reading an article about the Vita's sales numbers being quite poor in Japan mainly due to the launch titles being focused on the western audience. I imagine this has a lot to do with the Xbox 360 stalling over there as well.

What I don't understand is that the western audience tends to really take to Japanese games a lot more. While many these titles are niche in some respects, there are so many RPGs and Strategy games that have come from Japan that you can't even begin to count them and you can't rifle through the internet message boards without seeing mention of the latest Final Fantasy, Disagea, or Tales game (and countless others).

But the same must not be true in Japan? Is there a core base of Japanese gamers that eat up western market games enough to make them "niche" titles over there? Is there a little "Call of Duty", "Battlefield" or "Elder Scrolls" sect over there just like you have, say, your Ogre Battle fanatics here... or are the only people buying western market games in Japan expatriate western gamers?

[substantial_snake]

Probably.

I doubt that their is any empirical evidence to suggest weather those buying the major big titles in japan are native or expats but the big western games games like COD, Battlefield, Elder Scrolls, etc. usually sell around 100 to 300 thousand copies apeice. That seems like a lot of specific JPN region copies of a game to sell exclusively to westerners both living in Japan and unwilling to import their own NA copy of the game. I can also comment that a couple of Japanese gamers on my friends list are always on Battlefield ...but again that doesn't really prove anything outside of two Japanese gamers liking Battlefield 3.

I don't think you can objectively get an answer on your question outside of a Japanese member commenting on how popular X or Y game is in Japan to native Japanese gamers.

[The 1 2 P]

I don't think you can objectively get an answer on your question outside of a Japanese member commenting on how popular X or Y game is in Japan to native Japanese gamers.

I'll agree. Everyone keeps telling me that they just don't like western style games. I know this is true for fps because it's not a popular genre over there and I've heard it has easily caused motion sickness for alot of Japanese gamers who have tried them. In all the years I've been on Xbox live I've only ever ran into one Japanese lobby and that was for Burnout 3 during the original Xbox days. Beyond that I've never seen any Japanese gamers on XBL and figured that of the 8 or so people over there who have Xboxes they probably don't play the same games I do online.

To the OP, you are correct that the situation is much different here in our acceptance of Japanese games but I think it's safe to say that overall they aren't as popular as they were back in the 8 and 16 bit days. And even though I tend to play more western games this gen due to my fps preference, most people I know don't usually label their game playing taste as western or Japanese. From my experience they usually just say what genres or game types they like. The only time I usually hear people breaking it down between western and Japanese games is when they are talking about rpgs.

[Griking]

I was always under the impression that Japanese consumers just prefer to purchase products from Japanese companies. Kind of a loyalty thing.

[Gameguy]

Western games were great for the PC during the 90's, most of the graphic adventures were made by western companies. Now it seems western PC games are FPSs or other non-adventure games so I'm not interested.

There's not much on consoles that interest me now either, in the 90's most games seemed to be coming from Japan but I remember plenty of western games being great too. I'm not all that big on RPGs or FPSs which seem to be most of the games coming out from all regions today.

[chilimac]

Western games are generally shallow experiences that rely on graphics and marketing hype to be successful. Japanese gamers are smart enough to see through that.

[NayusDante]

I've been considering two possible reasons for this problem.

The first possibility is that technology obscured the shortcomings of the medium to both audiences, with each initally seeing something that they liked. When games had no choice but to look cartoonish and blocky, each market selectively saw what they wanted to see, so the same games appealed to both. As technology improved, it became more obvious that Japanese gamers preferred brightly colored anime-inspired designs, while the west went with more realistic visuals. This implies that the difference in taste has always been there, but it's only now that each side has the tools and technology to express what they expected video games to be from the beginning.


The other possibility is that Japanese gamer/otaku culture has seen a dramatic shift, implying that western developers have failed to adapt. To illustrate, I'd like to reference this article (http://www.maskawaih.com/v3/2010/02/graphical-depiction-of-otaku/) and its illustrations of "typical" otaku bedrooms. The first represents a sample from the 90s, while the other is circa 2010.

http://www.maskawaih.com/v3/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/otaku-1995.jpg http://www.maskawaih.com/v3/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/otaku.jpg

What happened? They've gone from being not terribly different from the American "comic book" or "sci-fi" crowd to being obsessed with dolls and pretty anime girls. Something tells me that a guy with a "hug pillow" isn't that interested in Gears of War, and no marketing budget is going to change that.


Regardless of the reason, it baffles me that developers haven't tried to introduce western game mechanics into an aesthetically Japanese game. If the dirty and realistic setting of Skyrim doesn't appeal to Japan, then why hasn't Bethesda done a feudal-era samurai game with the same gameplay? If Gears of War doesn't sell, why not do a cover shooter with Gundams taking cover behind buildings?

[Tupin]

Don't they tend to place a big emphasis on story, something Western games often lack?

Maybe they just don't like realism unless it is in a simulator. Plus the whole anime thing kind of gets into everything, especially when there is so much of it. It's like us, how so many games are inspired by action movies.

[Tupin]

On the note of Japanese gamers wanting to play Western games if they are set in Japan/have Japanese elements:

http://kotaku.com/5897365/japan-doesnt-really-want-an-assassins-creed-either

[Kitsune Sniper]

There's Japanese TF2 players around, so...

[kupomogli]

why not do a cover shooter with Gundams taking cover behind buildings?

http://storage.siliconera.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/l_4f5f45205bb11_thumb.jpg

[theclaw]

I think part of the shift in otaku interest traces back to Urusei Yatsura. Establishing among the earlier scantily clad anime girls to gain a following. Doesn't seem to me like a coincidence hentai began to gain popularity in its wake. And the way it effectively prototyped to anime viewers, various tropes like living-in-building-with-girl, hot superpowered alien, tsundere behavior... Without further refinements by Maison Ikkoku, Ranma 1/2, etc, we may not have had many series in the form we know them today. Love Hina anyone? Tenchi Muyo?

[Gameguy]

I think part of the shift in otaku interest traces back to Urusei Yatsura. Establishing among the earlier scantily clad anime girls to gain a following. Doesn't seem to me like a coincidence hentai began to gain popularity in its wake. And the way it effectively prototyped to anime viewers, various tropes like living-in-building-with-girl, hot superpowered alien, tsundere behavior... Without further refinements by Maison Ikkoku, Ranma 1/2, etc, we may not have had many series in the form we know them today. Love Hina anyone? Tenchi Muyo?
Most of the modern series are pretty lousy compared to the earlier examples, at least that's how they come across to me. Even so those magical girlfriend type shows were based on earlier western examples like Bewitched or I Dream of Jeannie.

Just replace the opening theme music and it's the same thing.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdgmbyiXSp0



Getting a bit sidetracked, but Urusei Yatsura was from the early 80's so I don't think that's why interest shifted slightly from the 90's into the 2000's. As for hentai becoming popular, it became popular around the same time that home video players started to take hold. I wouldn't necessarily blame it on Urusei Yatsura, there were some theatrical hentai films well before Urusei Yatsura but it's really because of the home video market that it became more popular. It's not like hentai was shown on TV like most other animes.

[NayusDante]

http://storage.siliconera.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/l_4f5f45205bb11_thumb.jpg

This looks awesome! Why in the world did we not get it?

[substantial_snake]

This looks awesome! Why in the world did we not get it?

Namco-Bandai for a while had a penchant for shipping over many of the low quality Gundam games, which in turn had shitty reviews and low sales, convinced them that the US market doesn't like gundam games.

So while here in the states now we get Dynasty Warriors Gundam (..yay?) in Japan they continue to release high quality titles that will never see the light of day here like Battlefield Record UC 81, Extreme VS., the soon to be released Unicorn adaptation, and the title show above Mobile Suit Gundam: Battle Operation. Luckly as far as I'm aware all of the decent Gundam games this generation have been for PS3 so you can always import. If you have any interest in Gundam and have a PS3 check out Gundam Extreme VS. on youtube, the game such a great Arcade Fighter that its a real shame we never got it here.



Mobile Suit Gundam: Battle Operation Gameplay

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=621rhT72yFo

[kupomogli]

Battlefield Record UC 81]

I didn't like this game. For the most part it was decent, but they made it too hard. You were able to redo missions so you could grind for money or stats. That's not really fun. Then the mission that you had to fight underwater at 20% of your speed against Z'goks, etc, was a bit ridiculous when they killed you in a few hits, you killed them in quite a few plus they moved five times your speed. The grindy aspect killed what could have been a good game.

Anyways, I blame it on the Namco Bandai merger that we no longer receive anything other than Dynasty Warriors Gundam. Before the Namco Bandai merger, we didn't get a lot, but we got a decent amount, and most weren't bad games. Unfortunately a lot of the best ones were kept in Japan, but a lot of those we got were still good. Federation vs Zeon, Gundam vs Zeta Gundam, Zeonic Front, Journey to Jaburo, Battle Assault 1, 2, and Encounters in Space were all good games in my opinion. Unless you import though, you're missing out on One Year War, the Ace Pilot, and Gihren's Greed series.

We got the best of the PS2 titles with Encounters in Space, but if anything else from that gen was to be localized, I would have liked for it to be One Year War. We've missed out on a great game because of that. I can't understand a word of it, but I own the game because I imported. The thing about One Year War is that it is pretty much 0079 from beginning to end, and by that I mean literally everything is covered. Definitely a must own if you're a fan of the original Gundam. Here's a trailer if you want to check it out. I remember when IGN posted this, I was hopeful that we'd receive the game but we never did. There's CG for the first minute and 40 seconds, but after that it shows off the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkNJtmTe3-k

This gen though all we got was Crossfire and the Dynasty Warriors Gundam games, all of which are pure garbage. So all the good games you have to imiport. Gundam Battle Royale, Chronicles, and Universe are practically the same games with more content added each revision. Universe has everything plus a lot more, although some gameplay elements of Royale were removed with the transition to the next game. Gundam vs Gundam, Next, and Extreme Vs are also great games.

I've never played it, but Battle Operation is supposed to be a free game with transaction sales.

[Genjackson]

If I was asian, I'd buy a vita. . . oh wait, i'd be a poor asian.

[kedawa]

Western games are generally shallow experiences that rely on graphics and marketing hype to be successful. Japanese gamers are smart enough to see through that.

Is today 'opposite day' where you live?

[moggles]

Western games are popular in Japan. Most of the games I see on the shelves here are Western. MW3 is huge - the advertising campaign was crazy.

If the games are marketed well, people will buy them. The Japanese are suckers for that kind of thing.

Besides, Japanese people worship Westerners.

[stalepie]

There's a lot of positive reviews for "very Western" games on Amazon.co.jp. Check out reviews for the God of War (http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%82%BD%E3%83%8B%E3%83%BC%E3%83%BB%E3%82%B3%E3%8 3%B3%E3%83%94%E3%83%A5%E3%83%BC%E3%82%BF%E3%82%A8% E3%83%B3%E3%82%BF%E3%83%86%E3%82%A4%E3%83%B3%E3%83 %A1%E3%83%B3%E3%83%88-%E3%82%B4%E3%83%83%E3%83%89%E3%83%BB%E3%82%AA%E3%8 3%96%E3%83%BB%E3%82%A6%E3%82%A9%E3%83%BC-%E8%90%BD%E6%97%A5%E3%81%AE%E6%82%B2%E6%84%B4%E6%9 B%B2-%E9%99%8D%E8%AA%95%E3%81%AE%E5%88%BB%E5%8D%B0-HD%E3%82%B3%E3%83%AC%E3%82%AF%E3%82%B7%E3%83%A7%E3 %83%B3/dp/B005FIW3E8/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1334436119&sr=8-2) series, Gears of War (http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/B004VJWP8Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&qid=1334436008&sr=8-1), Modern Warfare (http://www.amazon.co.jp/Call-Duty-World-Greatest-Hits/dp/B001AWBYNE/ref=sr_1_1?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1334436327&sr=1-1), Uncharted (http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%82%BD%E3%83%8B%E3%83%BC%E3%83%BB%E3%82%B3%E3%8 3%B3%E3%83%94%E3%83%A5%E3%83%BC%E3%82%BF%E3%82%A8% E3%83%B3%E3%82%BF%E3%83%86%E3%82%A4%E3%83%B3%E3%83 %A1%E3%83%B3%E3%83%88-%E3%82%A2%E3%83%B3%E3%83%81%E3%83%A3%E3%83%BC%E3%8 3%86%E3%83%83%E3%83%89-%E7%A0%82%E6%BC%A0%E3%81%AB%E7%9C%A0%E3%82%8B%E3%8 2%A2%E3%83%88%E3%83%A9%E3%83%B3%E3%83%86%E3%82%A3% E3%82%B9--/dp/B0053WOX7G/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1334436284&sr=8-2), etc. They are all highly rated, they just do not hit the mainstream because it's a very different culture and ... well, I haven't been there, so I wouldn't know, but they have different tastes.

Here's a review of the PS3 version of God of War PSP which calls it the "pinnacle of action":

"2 people have voted in, the more "this review helpful to you."
5.0 out of 5 stars the pinnacle of action , 2011/11/13
By "Blade" Godspeed - See all my reviews
This review is from: HD Collection marking the birth and song God of War Chains of Olympus (Video Game)
A transplant from Nde edition PSP, but did not expect, graphics are increased dramatically in the HD remastering. Unlike the PSP version is also avoided, operability is outstanding.
The action was on fire after a long time to solve the mystery.
Is an action game with spear Gotae.
Please rate the review
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Comments Comments


Skyrim also received good reviews:
http://www.amazon.co.jp/The-Elder-Scrolls-Skyrim-%E8%BC%B8%E5%85%A5%E7%89%88/dp/B004G5YW5Y/ref=pd_sim_vg_3

Also I've noticed that sometimes they prefer the import versions to play the game with subtitles because they prefer the dub. It reminds me of American fans preferring Japanese dub in animes and games, however I generally prefer originally dubbing because it just sounds the best or is the most appropriate and fits the visuals (with any language/country of origin).


Here is a Japanese playthrough of God of War III:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muhdQCGIjVQ&feature=relmfu

And one of the commercials: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwYY2a16Tq4&feature=relmfu

Another thing that I found interesting was that Asura's Wrath seemed to be received better in America than Japan.

[G-Boobie]

Western games are generally shallow experiences that rely on graphics and marketing hype to be successful. Japanese gamers are smart enough to see through that.

Oh, absolutely. Because games like Assassin's Creed, Skyrim, Bioshock, The Witcher, Starcraft, Burnout, Dead Space, God of War, Burnout, Red Dead Redemption, Left 4 Dead, Mass Effect, and Batman: Arkham Asylum get by purely on their graphics and marketing.

You're either crazy or dumb.

[Gamevet]

I'm thinking it has more to do with the handheld systems being the dominant market over there. Even Sony's PSP, has managed to sell better than their own PS3 and Nintendo's Wii. If you look at the software that is available for the handhelds, it's mostly created in Japan, with about 25% being from the Western developers.

[chilimac]

Oh, absolutely. Because games like Assassin's Creed, Skyrim, Bioshock, The Witcher, Starcraft, Burnout, Dead Space, God of War, Burnout, Red Dead Redemption, Left 4 Dead, Mass Effect, and Batman: Arkham Asylum get by purely on their graphics and marketing.

You're either crazy or dumb.

And you're either dumb or dumb, because you obviously aren't smart enough to realize that most of these games are all about graphics and cutscenes. Starcraft and L4D being the exceptions. Take "games" like RDR, Ass Creed and Batman, and reduce their graphics to say N64 levels and remove the cutscenes so that they'd have to rely on their gameplay alone to sell them, and... well, then everyone would see them for the crap they truly are. Take away those two things and they're nothing but toys that you'd play with for a couple hours before tossing them aside forever.

Most of these "games" fall into one of two categories: 1) walk around a huge environment while looking at scenery until something comes along for you to shoot or stab, or 2) walk down a linear hallway and shoot stuff until a cutscene is triggered. There's no depth to the mechanics or strategy or skill involved. Instead, you just push the same button over and over again until everything is dead and then watch a cutscene as a reward. Mindless and repetitive. Simple games for simple people.

[kupomogli]

If Batman Arkham Asylum played the exact same and was N64 graphics, it'd still be an amazing game.

[chilimac]

If Batman Arkham Asylum played the exact same and was N64 graphics, it'd still be an amazing game.

And without the cutscenes, what would motivate you to continue playing it beyond a couple of hours, once you've grown bored of exploring the city and pretending to be Batman? There's hardly any gameplay to speak of and no mechanics to master. The combat? It's just mashing a button over and over and then pressing another button when prompted to block attacks. It gets old fast.

You want a beat 'em up with enough depth and challenge to keep you coming back for more, and doesn't rely on cutscenes to motivate you to keep playing it? Then play Bayonetta. Want a shooter that does the same? Then play Vanquish. Both are the pinnacles of their genres and they are the two best games of the current console generation. Both are Japanese developed. Westerners couldn't create such magnificent games if their lives depended on it.

[G-Boobie]

And without the cutscenes, what would motivate you to continue playing it beyond a couple of hours, once you've grown bored of exploring the city and pretending to be Batman? There's hardly any gameplay to speak of and no mechanics to master. The combat? It's just mashing a button over and over and then pressing another button when prompted to block attacks. It gets old fast. You want a beat 'em up with enough depth and challenge to keep you coming back for more, and doesn't rely on cutscenes to motivate you to keep playing it? Then play Bayonetta. Want a shooter that does the same? Then play Vanquish. Both are the pinnacles of their genres and they are the two best games of the current console generation. Both are Japanese developed. Westerners couldn't create such magnificent games if their lives depended on it.

I enjoyed both of those games, but I enjoyed Batman, Dead Space, and basically everything else I already mentioned as much or more. You see, I don't actually care where a game comes from as long as it's entertaining. I hate guys like you because you don't stay at GameFAQs, where the black and white culture bias is tolerated.

Your argument, if I'm reading you correctly, is that all western games boil down to 1) walk down a hallway shooting, until 2) a cutscene triggers. Not only is that reductive to the point of being useless as an argument, it bespeaks a shameful lack of perspective on your part. The idiocy inherent in dismissing the creative output of an entire hemisphere is so mind bogglingly insane that it could only happen on the internet. So good job, there.

Would I enjoy Left 4 Dead or Dead Space if they came in N64 graphical flavors? Yes. Because I don't give a shit about cutscenes: the gameplay is where it's at. Both of those games have the gameplay. For that matter, so does Batman, Assassin's Creed (though I admit that half of the fun is the art in AC's case: not ALL of it though, don't get excited), Skyrim (because hey: guess what? Morrowind has N64 graphics at best, and it was still incredible, and Skyrim is an evolution of that formula), Burnout Paradise (which has great multiplayer and an awesome city to drive around in), Mass Effect with it's choices and deep universe, etc. etc. etc. If you're going to avoid playing these games because the guys making them don't live in Japan, then I feel sorry for you. And you're still crazy or dumb.

[Gamevet]

You want a beat 'em up with enough depth and challenge to keep you coming back for more, and doesn't rely on cutscenes to motivate you to keep playing it? Then play Bayonetta. Want a shooter that does the same? Then play Vanquish. Both are the pinnacles of their genres and they are the two best games of the current console generation. Both are Japanese developed. Westerners couldn't create such magnificent games if their lives depended on it.

If Bayonetta is the pinnacle of its genre, I'm getting a new hobby.

[kupomogli]

Why cut out the cutscenes? It's not like the N64 and PSX couldn't handle in game cutscenes.

Besides, Arkham Asylum is more than just pressing one button and then pressing another one whenever they attack to counter. It might not have as deep a combat system as Bayonetta, but the freeflow combat system is fun, especially once you acquire all of Batman's gadgets to integrate them into a long string of combos.

Arkham Asylum is also more than just melee combat. There's stealth combat, also integrating Batman's gadgets to quietly defeat the opponents while remaining unseen. There's exploration, or do you think we should cut out exploration too?

Bayonetta is not one of the best games ever made. The art direction and a few gameplay nuances are the reasons I don't like the game. To me, it's a crappier Devil May Cry. You also mention Vanquish, made by the same developer, which yes, is a good game, but far from the best. It's pretty hypocritical to say that you repeatedly do the same thing over and over in Arkham Asylum, when there is nothing in Vanquish beyond proceeding to the next area, killing a couple hundred enemies, repeat. Compare that to any of the Uncharted games where the combat includes melee(which is also in Vanquish but can't be used often as it drains your boost to 0) and then there's puzzles and the how you proceed from area to area to break the monotony. Vanquish has nothing to break the monotony. After one shooting segment, what else is there, but another shooting segment.

[Tupin]

What about Final Fantasy 13/13-2? Those are some of the most linear and cutscene-packed games I've ever played.

[G-Boobie]

Furthermore, Chilimac, my main issue with your argument isn't that you clearly enjoy Japanese games more than Western games; that's a personal opinion and you're welcome to it. My issue is that, like every other fifteen year old on the internet(in mind if not body), you've mistaken that personal opinion as a universal truth and applied it to everyone else. "Man, I really don't like Western games. Therefore, not only are Japanese games clearly superior across the board, but everyone who disagrees is wrong. " That's arrogance and wrongheaded,and that's why I jumped you, and will do so in the future.

It's possible that this isn't what you believe and that the problem is in your communication. If that's the case, what you should have posted was, "I tend to like Japanese games more than Western games, so I can see where the Vita argument is coming from." That communicates your argument in a more meaningful way.

[chilimac]

I enjoyed both of those games, but I enjoyed Batman, Dead Space, and basically everything else I already mentioned as much or more. You see, I don't actually care where a game comes from as long as it's entertaining.

I know your type very well. You're the type that buys games that look good and are popular. You think they're fun because you lack the intelligence to discern the differences between qualities that make for a good game and a bad one. You are confusing great graphics and cutscenes for great gameplay!



Your argument, if I'm reading you correctly, is that all western games boil down to 1) walk down a hallway shooting, until 2) a cutscene triggers. Not only is that reductive to the point of being useless as an argument, it bespeaks a shameful lack of perspective on your part. The idiocy inherent in dismissing the creative output of an entire hemisphere is so mind bogglingly insane that it could only happen on the internet. So good job, there.

I didn't say that all western games are like that, I said MOST are. And the reason for that is because most western developers lack the intelligence and creativity to come up with something more interesting. Sadly, they get away with being talentless morons because of simpletons like yourself keep buying every piece of crap they churn out simply because the graphics are great and the cutscenes are entertaining. People like you are the reason why the game industry is going to hell.



Would I enjoy Left 4 Dead or Dead Space if they came in N64 graphical flavors? Yes. Because I don't give a shit about cutscenes: the gameplay is where it's at. Both of those games have the gameplay. For that matter, so does Batman, Assassin's Creed (though I admit that half of the fun is the art in AC's case: not ALL of it though, don't get excited), Skyrim (because hey: guess what? Morrowind has N64 graphics at best, and it was still incredible, and Skyrim is an evolution of that formula), Burnout Paradise (which has great multiplayer and an awesome city to drive around in), Mass Effect with it's choices and deep universe, etc. etc. etc. If you're going to avoid playing these games because the guys making them don't live in Japan, then I feel sorry for you. And you're still crazy or dumb.


L4D I can somewhat understand, as that requires some skill and strategy. But if you think Dead Space has great gameplay (with or without cutscense), then you are dumber than I thought. DS is the most simplistic and mindless game ever. All you do is walk down hallways and shoot what comes running at you. It sucks big-time! Most NES games have more depth to their gameplay.

Skyrim is a hiking simulator. You can have a similar experience by taking a walk through the woods with a big stick and whacking over the head any wild life that stumbles upon your path. Fun? Maybe... if you're a loser who has nothing else to live for.

Burnout Paradise I have not played. But it's a racing game. It's simple... gas, break, turn left or right... it's hard to screw that up. It doesn't take a brilliant mind to make that formula work. And thus the reason why there are so many of them these days, the vast majority of which come from western developers.

Batman and Creed are not games, they're toys that simulate an experience of being a superhero or an assassin. You can have a similar experience by playing with action figures. The cutscenes are there to give you motivation to keep playing with them long after their novelty has worn off. It's a little mind trick that western developers have learned long ago, and it's very effective on the weak-minded.

As for Mass Effect... when I want to watch a movie, I don't buy a $60 movie with the word "game" attached to it in order for the publisher to justify the price, I rent a movie for a few bucks instead. Why? Because I'm not crazy or dumb.

[chilimac]

Furthermore, Chilimac, my main issue with your argument isn't that you clearly enjoy Japanese games more than Western games.

No, the issue here is that I buy games for the gameplay, and you buy them for reasons other than gameplay. And the reason for that is because I'm a gamer, and you're a lamer.

[kupomogli]

DS is the most simplistic and mindless game ever. All you do is walk down hallways and shoot what comes running at you. It sucks big-time! Most NES games have more depth to their gameplay.

You described just about every shooter ever created.


Batman and Creed are not games, they're toys that simulate an experience of being a superhero or an assassin.

Isn't that the reason to play video games? To simulate an experience?

[Tupin]

What about Kojima games, with their half-hour long cutscenes? Come to think of it, I think pretty much all console Final Fantasy games since Final Fantasy X have been linear and cutscene based.

When you say "Western", I'm assuming you mean "American." What of the French, British, Swedish, Canadian, and Australian developers?

[kedawa]

Japanese developers have been shitting out the same prettied up PS2 games this whole generation. Their time has passed.

[Kitsune Sniper]

I know your type very well. You're the type that buys games that look good and are popular. You think they're fun because you lack the intelligence to discern the differences between qualities that make for a good game and a bad one. You are confusing great raphics and cutscenes for great gameplay!

(...)

I didn't say that all western games are like that, I said MOST are. And the reason for that is because most western developers lack the intelligence and creativity to come up with something more interesting. Sadly, they get away with being talentless morons because of simpletons like yourself keep buying every piece of crap they churn out simply because the graphics are great and the cutscenes are entertaining. People like you are the reason why the game industry is going to hell.

(...)

L4D I can somewhat understand, as that requires some skill and strategy. But if you think Dead Space has great gameplay (with or without cutscense), then you are dumber than I thought. DS is the most simplistic and mindless game ever. All you do is walk down hallways and shoot what comes running at you. It sucks big-time! Most NES games have more depth to their gameplay.

Skyrim is a hiking simulator. You can have a similar experience by taking a walk through the woods with a big stick and whacking over the head any wild life that stumbles upon your path. Fun? Maybe... if you're a loser who has nothing else to live for.

Burnout Paradise I have not played. But it's a racing game. It's simple... gas, break, turn left or right... it's hard to screw that up. It doesn't take a brilliant mind to make that formula work. And thus the reason why there are so many of them these days, the vast majority of which come from western developers.

Batman and Creed are not games, they're toys that simulate an experience of being a superhero or an assassin. You can have a similar experience by playing with action figures. The cutscenes are there to give you motivation to keep playing with them long after their novelty has worn off. It's a little mind trick that western developers have learned long ago, and it's very effective on the weak-minded.

As for Mass Effect... when I want to watch a movie, I don't buy a $60 movie with the word "game" attached to it in order for the publisher to justify the price, I rent a movie for a few bucks instead. Why? Because I'm not crazy or dumb.

http://datbase.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/orsenwellesclapping.gif

Either you're a very elaborate troll, or just a very clueless person.

Also as a veteran L4D player... stategy. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Ha. HAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAA. Please. Strategy. That game is 95% shoot at stuff and 5% luck.

[The 1 2 P]

Japanese developers have been shitting out the same prettied up PS2 games this whole generation. Their time has passed.

Thats the reason why Inafune said the Japanese games industry is finished (http://www.1up.com/news/capcom-inafune-japan-games-industry) and why Itagaki said Japanese game execs lack creativity and ingenuity (http://www.industrygamers.com/news/itagaki-says-japanese-execs-lack-creativity-and-ingenuity/). They are both basically saying that Japanese developers are making the same games over and over again living off their pass glory. And over the past few years a few other Japanese industry insiders have shared similiar sentiments.

[G-Boobie]

I know your type very well. You're the type that buys games that look good and are popular. You think they're fun because you lack the intelligence to discern the differences between qualities that make for a good game and a bad one. You are confusing great graphics and cutscenes for great gameplay!

Nope. I'm the kind of gamer that plays competitively (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_i9UfO9DHg) for money. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6eCoeIx0C4) I made close to five hundred bucks last year in Street Fighter IV and Melty Blood, and I aim to make more this year with Skullgirls and AE: when it comes to my "hardcore gamer-ness", I travel and put my money where my mouth is. So don't tell me that I'm mistaking graphics and cutscenes for gameplay.



I didn't say that all western games are like that, I said MOST are. And the reason for that is because most western developers lack the intelligence and creativity to come up with something more interesting. Sadly, they get away with being talentless morons because of simpletons like yourself keep buying every piece of crap they churn out simply because the graphics are great and the cutscenes are entertaining. People like you are the reason why the game industry is going to hell.

Every point in that paragraph is subjective and cannot be corroborated with hard data. Therefore, it's meaningless opinion. We can play a game with your statement though:

What's more likely: that A) everyone who bought Skyrim is a simpleton, despite all evidence to the contrary, or B) you're a GameFAQs troll who, in better days, would have been ejected from the DP forums faster than it took for you to register?

Same goes for everything else. Ten million people bought and loved Skyrim, myself included, and it won every industry (NOT publication: we're talking developers, here) award there was last year. You might not like it, and that's fine, but again: your opinion is not fact.

All of this is essentially academic at this point, because looking at the responses here, you're clearly alone in this. You go ahead and keep digging that hole.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

I'm a gamer, and you're a lamer.

Please tell me that you turned your baseball cap to the side of your head, crossed your arms across your chest putting your fingers under your armpits thumbs up, cocked your head and shouted "WORD" after you said that.

[G-Boobie]

please tell me that you turned your baseball cap to the side of your head, crossed your arms across your chest putting your fingers under your armpits thumbs up, cocked your head and shouted "word" after you said that.

word.

[chilimac]

Nope. I'm the kind of gamer that plays competitively (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_i9UfO9DHg) for money. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6eCoeIx0C4) I made close to five hundred bucks last year in Street Fighter IV and Melty Blood, and I aim to make more this year with Skullgirls and AE: when it comes to my "hardcore gamer-ness", I travel and put my money where my mouth is. So don't tell me that I'm mistaking graphics and cutscenes for gameplay.

Every point in that paragraph is subjective and cannot be corroborated with hard data. Therefore, it's meaningless opinion. We can play a game with your statement though:

What's more likely: that A) everyone who bought Skyrim is a simpleton, despite all evidence to the contrary, or B) you're a GameFAQs troll who, in better days, would have been ejected from the DP forums faster than it took for you to register?

Same goes for everything else. Ten million people bought and loved Skyrim, myself included, and it won every industry (NOT publication: we're talking developers, here) award there was last year. You might not like it, and that's fine, but again: your opinion is not fact.

All of this is essentially academic at this point, because looking at the responses here, you're clearly alone in this. You go ahead and keep digging that hole.

Here are the facts pertaining to Skyrim: The "game" does not challenge your body, nor your mind. Its combat doesn't require any skill or strategy. The game is primarily designed to consume an enormous amount of the player's time, and not much else.

Now, what kind of person does a game such as this appeal to? Answer: A simpleton. A weakling. A loser. Why? Because if the player was smart, then they'd prefer to play a game that challenges their mind. If they were strong-willed, then they'd prefer a game that demands that they have the persistence to develop some skill to make progress. And if they were a winner, they'd lack the time to waste on such a pointless endeavor.

Reviews and awards can be bought, and 10 million simpletons can be tricked into thinking a bad game is a good one. If they couldn't, then Bethesda, and most western publishers would've been put out of business a long time ago.

And just because you're a gamer, does not mean that you aren't also a simpleton. You're proof of that.

[Richter Belmount]

Here are the facts pertaining to Skyrim: The "game" does not challenge your body, nor your mind. Its combat doesn't require any skill or strategy. The game is primarily designed to consume an enormous amount of the player's time, and not much else.

Now, what kind of person does a game such as this appeal to? Answer: A simpleton. A weakling. A loser. Why? Because if the player was smart, then they'd prefer to play a game that challenges their mind. If they were strong-willed, then they'd prefer a game that demands that they have the persistence to develop some skill to make progress. And if they were a winner, they'd lack the time to waste on such a pointless endeavor.

Reviews and awards can be bought, and 10 million simpletons can be tricked into thinking a bad game is a good one. If they couldn't, then Bethesda, and most western publishers would've been put out of business a long time ago.

And just because you're a gamer, does not mean that you aren't also a simpleton. You're proof of that.

I agree with everything this man has said , except insulting gboob DONT DO THAT.

[G-Boobie]

Here are the facts pertaining to Skyrim: The "game" does not challenge your body, nor your mind. Its combat doesn't require any skill or strategy. The game is primarily designed to consume an enormous amount of the player's time, and not much else.

If you want a gaming experience to challenge both your mind and your body, there are certainly options: I play four fighting games at a competitive level. Maybe, after a long week of engineering stuff for work and practicing in the games I compete in, I just want to walk around in an interesting fantasy environment and whack skeletons for a while. If that makes me a "simpleton", then I'll happily take the title. I'll also take "lamer", because no one's called me that since 1986.

Games are more than just what buttons you have to press in order to proceed: Amnesia and Silent Hill 2 are not challenging games by any stretch, but their atmosphere and story are well-crafted and worthy of exploration. Does their lack of "challenge" mean that they're wastes of time? Or is only Amnesia a waste of time, because it was made by white people?

Final Fantasy VII is incredibly easy: does that mean that it sucks? It's also something like thirty percent cutscenes!

The Witcher II is one of the most demanding (mind and body!) and challenging RPG's I've played in years, and it has a genuinely interesting story! And I never say that, because I read books! BUT! It has cutscenes! And it was made by folks without epicanthic folds! How does one solve this paradox!?

Lol. "challenging you body and mind". Whatever. Unless you're making money, your skill in games means absolutely nothing. UNLESS.... You're having fun. BUT! Fun is subjective. What's fun to YOU might not be fun to ME. And that does not make me a "simpleton". If anything, it makes me a Lamer. Dawgge. And what does that make you?

Not a Lamer. That's for sure.



Now, what kind of person does a game such as this appeal to? Answer: A simpleton. A weakling. A loser. Why? Because if the player was smart, then they'd prefer to play a game that challenges their mind. If they were strong-willed, then they'd prefer a game that demands that they have the persistence to develop some skill to make progress. And if they were a winner, they'd lack the time to waste on such a pointless endeavor.

You're making an awful lot of assumptions about other people's perspective on free time. For example, I've been known to watch the occasional movie or television show: seldom do either of those things challenge my "mind or body". Does that mean that they lack an inherent value that automatically translates them into non-productive time? Nope! It just means I want to relax! Like Frankie suggests I do! If there's something wrong with enjoying a game that doesn't always demand that I spend days mastering a certain technique, then ninety five percent of the entire world is dead wrong and are also apparently "simpletons". Take a look at what the other folks in this thread have to say about your interesting little philosophy: you're not making any friends, that's for sure! But then again, that's probably not unusual for you!

Again: games are more than the buttons you have to press correctly to win. Fun is not something you can quantify broadly.


And just because you're a gamer, does not mean that you aren't also a simpleton. You're proof of that.

Correction: I'm a LAMER. Which makes me both a GAMER and a LAMER. Thank you very much.

I love this guy! Poster of the year!

[theclaw]

I lean toward the viewpoint of if a game has lost money, or is not entertaining, then it has failed. Financial sinkholes hurt game creators and players alike. Boring wrecks are a waste of everyone's time.

Instant gratification is the purpose of video games. Its very soul even. One should not be involved with games that have become a harm to their well-being or no longer enjoyable.

[moggles]

I agree that Bayonetta is one of the finest games of this generation, the gameplay has an incredible layer of depth that only a Japanese developer can bring to the table. However, there are a lot of shit Japanese games around these days, a lot more than in the past.
Western games do tend to be far more focused on the story and visuals than the actual gameplay, but there are some exceptions.

Games are much easier than they were back in the 16-bit days, no doubt about it. From a personal perspective, I do miss that sense of achievement when finishing a game, the feeling of overcoming a challenge and honing my skills to reach a deeper level. A lot of modern games don't have that depth to the gameplay, but that's because the industry has changed and gaming is a very commercial form of entertainment these days. They have to pander to the mainstream to survive.

[LaughingMAN.S9]

lol lamer.

[TonyTheTiger]

The combat? It's just mashing a button over and over and then pressing another button when prompted to block attacks.

You say this as if gaming in the 80s and 90s wasn't dominated by running forward and shooting.

[Griking]

I didn't say that all western games are like that, I said MOST are. And the reason for that is because most western developers lack the intelligence and creativity to come up with something more interesting. Sadly, they get away with being talentless morons because of simpletons like yourself keep buying every piece of crap they churn out simply because the graphics are great and the cutscenes are entertaining. People like you are the reason why the game industry is going to hell.

I agree. I don't blame the developers for what you describe. I blame the customers because clearly enough people buy this shit that its worthwhile for the developers to keep making more of it. Stop buying crap and sequels of sequels and developers will stop making crap and sequels. But you know what, I find it very unfair to point specifically to western games and western developers when you say this. There's just as much filler and sequels coming from Japanese developers as well. Again, they make what they think sells.

There's a real change coming in gaming. It costs so damn much to make top of the line A+ games that the developers aren't willing to take risks. However smaller independent studios are more than willing to take those risks to make smaller games with much less production value (fluff and filler) but are actually really fun games to play.

I'm currently playing The Legend of Grimrock on my PC and have to say that it's the best $14 that I've spent in a long time. It might not be a fresh new idea, in fact, its more of a homage to old style PC dungeon crawlers but its a game that no larger developer would take the time or risk to put out.

Its just like today's music. The stuff we hear on the radio is shit IMO but that doesn't mean that all artist and all new music is shit. You just need to look a little harder and know where to find the non commercial stuff.

[Griking]

Here are the facts pertaining to Skyrim: The "game" does not challenge your body, nor your mind. Its combat doesn't require any skill or strategy. The game is primarily designed to consume an enormous amount of the player's time, and not much else.

Now, what kind of person does a game such as this appeal to? Answer: A simpleton. A weakling. A loser. Why? Because if the player was smart, then they'd prefer to play a game that challenges their mind. If they were strong-willed, then they'd prefer a game that demands that they have the persistence to develop some skill to make progress. And if they were a winner, they'd lack the time to waste on such a pointless endeavor.



I loved Skyrim. Yeah, the fights weren't that hard to deal with but I don't play the game for the fights. I also don't play the game to challenge my mind, there's many other games out there for that. What I loved about Skyrim was the exploration, the atmosphere and open endness about it. If I want to strictly follow the scripted storyline I can do that but I can also (and would much rather) just wander the land, explore the beauty, find the tons of little extras and easter eggs that were thrown in and do it all at my own pace. Sure the game has some shortcomings as well (what game doesn't) but if you're playing Skyrim with the intention of just flying through it and only basing your opinion on the main quest lines then you're doing it wrong.

[Robocop2]

I spend enough of my day not being a simpleton to let some false sense of refinement or whatever it is that is driving your nonsense to worry whether a HOBBY stimulates my mind....

[G-Boobie]

I agree that Bayonetta is one of the finest games of this generation, the gameplay has an incredible layer of depth that only a Japanese developer can bring to the table. However, there are a lot of shit Japanese games around these days, a lot more than in the past.
Western games do tend to be far more focused on the story and visuals than the actual gameplay, but there are some exceptions.

I'd actually disagree with the idea that western games are focused more on visuals and story than gameplay. Even the biggest, baddest scapegoat of them all, Call of Duty, requires a considerable level of skill and a lot of game knowledge to excel online. I'll happily admit that the single player stuff is more less disposable, but that isn't the focus of the game: the multiplayer is. The same is true for most first and third person shooters, real time strategy games, and sports titles. Quality varies, like any other genre.

I'm curious to know what stupid, easy western games people are talking about. I'm sure I'll hear a chorus of, "SKYRIM!"; that game is plenty easy, but the point of that game is something other than mastery of mechanics. It's an exploration game more than anything. And I liked it just fine. On the other hand, we have titles like The Witcher 2, S.T.A.L.K.E.R., FarCry 2, Metro 2033, The Void, GTA, and Starcraft that can be extremely challenging single player western-developed games, and I loved those too. You, and Chilimac the Lamer Namer, should try them.


Games are much easier than they were back in the 16-bit days, no doubt about it. From a personal perspective, I do miss that sense of achievement when finishing a game, the feeling of overcoming a challenge and honing my skills to reach a deeper level. A lot of modern games don't have that depth to the gameplay, but that's because the industry has changed and gaming is a very commercial form of entertainment these days. They have to pander to the mainstream to survive.

I'd argue that games are easier in this day and age because A) we're a lot farther from gaming's arcade roots than we were in the 16-bit days, and the point of gaming has evolved past its high score chasing, quarter stealing roots, and B) we're better at making games now. No one could have made Super Meat Boy in the 16-bit era (an exceptionally difficult western game, if anyone is keeping score), because the level design in that game is astounding compared to most 16-bit 2D platformers. It's intricate in ways that only Nintendo was doing back in the nineties.

While we're at it, despite their intricacy and craft, the Mario games from the 8 and 16-bit era are pretty easy. I beat Mario 3 and Mario World on the very first day I owned them. Those are not difficult games. On the other hand, Lost Levels took me a month of being very angry to beat, and it's universally reviled (and rightly so).

I think it's insane to quantify the quality of a video game based on it's difficulty. I love Cave shooters, and those are brutally difficult, but I also love the Mario games, Little Big Planet, Skyrim, Deus Ex, every horror game ever made, etc. etc. etc. If you enjoy a hard game, great! That doesn't mean it's better than any given easy one. And if you want a challenge, there are games out there that will give you one: plenty of them in fact. As a bonus, they're often very pretty to look at, too. Witcher 2, I'm looking at YOU.

And now: the Original Point!

From what I've read and heard, Japanese gamers like some western games just fine, but the Vita launch line up was pretty much trash. Uncharted is a 'meh' entry in the series, Ridge Racer Vita is an insulting nightmare, Ultimate Marvel 3 is considered kusoge in Japan and very few players like it or take it seriously, Little Deviants is trash all the way, the golf game did pretty well, but it's yet another hot shots golf game, BlazBlue is a port of a game that most of the people who play it already own on consoles... The machine itself is expensive, you need an additional (also expensive!) memory unit to play some games, and Japanese owners have a huge library of PSP games they can download, too.

Consider also that the 3DS now has Monster Hunter and probably Dragon Quest at some point, whereas the Vita does not. Do you see Monster Hunter or Dragon Quest on there? Nope! That's probably another pair of reasons why it sold badly.


I spend enough of my day not being a simpleton to let some false sense of refinement or whatever it is that is driving your nonsense to worry whether a HOBBY stimulates my mind....

Welcome to Lamer-dom!

[duffmanth]

Western games have rarely been popular in Japan, as where Japanese games having always been popular over here, but I think their popularity is waning? That's why Microsoft has never done well in Japan and probably never will? The big Japanese publishers like Capcom, Konami, Squaresoft, and others that once ruled the industry seem to be less relevant with each passing year in the west at least. It seems like they're catering more to their home country, while western publishers and developers are doing the same here.

[Leo_A]

Western games have rarely been popular in Japan, as where Japanese games having always been popular over here, but I think their popularity is waning? That's why Microsoft has never done well in Japan and probably never will? The big Japanese publishers like Capcom, Konami, Squaresoft, and others that once ruled the industry seem to be less relevant with each passing year in the west at least. It seems like they're catering more to their home country, while western publishers and developers are doing the same here.

Microsoft has heavy support from Japanese publishers and many games traditionally associated with Japan have been 360 exclusives this generation. They're not ignoring the 360 due to the want of Japanese developed software to play on it.

And the big Japanese publishers are struggling even more so back home. That's one reason why you're seeing companies like Capcom increasingly trying to cater to Western audiences. The Resident Evil series is a prime example.

[theclaw]

Yeah this isn't a matter of Western vs Japanese. Their attempts to emulate our design stereotypes aren't any better.

IMO I don't like it when too much graphics "realism" is applied to clearly fake gameplay. If you aren't going to make a simulation, don't create the graphical pretext of one.

Sort of an uncanny valley effect. Hurts the immersion to find out how many hits enemies take in realistic looking games, only to show little if any sign of apparent wounds an actual person would. Even zombies or similar can be close enough to human looking. Resident Evil 4 and 5 suffer from this.

[Tupin]

Yeah, the only thing worse than a bad Western game is a Japanese one that tries too hard to be Western.

I agree with the graphical simulation point. It's so weird seeing realistic characters taking clips full of bullets.

[Griking]

Western games have rarely been popular in Japan, as where Japanese games having always been popular over here, but I think their popularity is waning? That's why Microsoft has never done well in Japan and probably never will?

Personally I believe that Microsoft never did well in Japan because the Japanese people are loyal to a fault to their own Japanese companies and consoles.

[TonyTheTiger]

I agree with the graphical simulation point. It's so weird seeing realistic characters taking clips full of bullets.

You must really hate Arnold movies.

[Tupin]

You must really hate Arnold movies.
Well, I at least see humor in them. Just like whenever Call of Duty throws strawberry jam in my face whenever I get hit. Seriously, auto-regeneration makes sense when you're playing a futuristic space marine, but in a game set in present day, it just makes me laugh.

[theclaw]

They should make regeneration, auto aim, and all, into plot points. At least TRY to show some kind of reason for their presence from an in game universe perspective.

[Gameguy]

They should make regeneration, auto aim, and all, into plot points. At least TRY to show some kind of reason for their presence from an in game universe perspective.
Just have them explain that the characters are either vampires or T-1000 robots from the future. That should take care of most of the problems.

[BetaWolf47]

Here are the facts pertaining to Skyrim: The "game" does not challenge your body, nor your mind.
How the fuck is a game supposed to challenge your body? If you find it hard to press and depress a key, button, or trigger, you probably aren't strong enough to even breath.

Also, Eastern gamers love Western games. Are you guys high or something? Look at Korea and Starcraft.

[RP2A03]

How the fuck is a game supposed to challenge your body?

I guess he plays Wii Fit.



Oh, wait, he is a real gamer that only plays real games; so I suppose he is talking about Dance Aerobics and other games that use the NES Power Pad.

[NayusDante]

If you define a game as requiring the player to make meaningful decisions, Japan isn't really into "games" as much as they used to be. I'm reminded of Ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451, where he described a form of television entertainment in which you the "player" responded to the characters in the program. The only choice you had was to play along with wherever it went, and your decisions had no meaningful effect on the story, but it was all set up to appear as though you did. Basically, Bradbury predicted the JRPG. Looking at FFXIII again, there was usually one specific battle plan that worked for each boss battle. You just needed to conform to it, and you were rewarded with the next cutscene.

Western culture is more about non-conformity, which from what I understand is a strong contrast to Japanese culture. Western shooters let you move wherever you want and take control of the battlefield, but Japanese SHMUPS are about avoiding the bullets and finding the right pattern to follow. Both genres are about shooting things, but the play philosophies are completely different.

[chilimac]

Western culture is more about non-conformity, which from what I understand is a strong contrast to Japanese culture. Western shooters let you move wherever you want and take control of the battlefield, but Japanese SHMUPS are about avoiding the bullets and finding the right pattern to follow. Both genres are about shooting things, but the play philosophies are completely different.


I believe the western shooter design philosophy has more to do with their lack of creativity than of a desire for control, and their lack of ability to appreciate good game design. Western developers lack the intelligence to compete with the Japanese on a gameplay design level, and they know this because, back in the 80's when graphics were still primitive and gameplay was king, the Japanese kicked their asses.

So instead of fighting a battle they were certain to lose, western developers chose to focus on graphics and used them to create simulations. Sports sims, flight sims, car sims, fighting sims, life sims, war sims, etc.

The reason they chose this route is because a simulation doesn't require much creativity or talent to make. You just need the ability to copy a real-life activity into video game form. It's the equivalent of a child who has no artistic ability placing a piece of paper over a drawing, tracing it to copy the image, and then taking credit for having drawn it. It's lazy and it's a sham. Lucky for them, they'll continue to get away with it, because most western gamers also lack the intelligence to recognize and appreciate superior game design.

[TonyTheTiger]

I believe the western shooter design philosophy has more to do with their lack of creativity than of a desire for control, and their lack of ability to appreciate good game design. Western developers lack the intelligence to compete with the Japanese on a gameplay design level, and they know this because, back in the 80's when graphics were still primitive and gameplay was king, the Japanese kicked their asses.

You say this as if gaming in the 80s and 90s wasn't dominated by running forward and shooting.

[chilimac]

You say this as if gaming in the 80s and 90s wasn't dominated by running forward and shooting.

There was a bit more to it than that. Back then there was a little thing called "level design", enemies and obstacles placed strategically in a level so that the player was required to develop some skill in order to make progress in the game.

Running forward and shooting is the western design philosophy. Dead Space, for example.

[TonyTheTiger]

Most "level design" in old games was based on making you die first before you realized what you needed to do in order to pass an obstacle. The disappearing blocks over lava in Heat Man's level in Mega Man 2? Hardly about skill the first time you face it. As much as I love games like Mega Man, Contra, Ninja Gaiden, and Castlevania it really was an exercise in repetition. And that was kind of necessary at the time. The games are all about 20 minutes long otherwise.

[Leo_A]

Western developers lack the intelligence to compete with the Japanese on a gameplay design level, and they know this because, back in the 80's when graphics were still primitive and gameplay was king, the Japanese kicked their asses.

I thought the days of gamers thinking that Japan was the promised land was over. But I guess there are a few remnants left that face themselves towards Tokyo a few times a day wishing they were over there in videogame Heaven.

[chilimac]

Most "level design" in old games was based on making you die first before you realized what you needed to do in order to pass an obstacle. The disappearing blocks over lava in Heat Man's level in Mega Man 2? Hardly about skill the first time you face it. As much as I love games like Mega Man, Contra, Ninja Gaiden, and Castlevania it really was an exercise in repetition. And that was kind of necessary at the time. The games are all about 20 minutes long otherwise.

Those disappearing blocks in Mega Man 2 present a test of hand-eye coordination and pattern recognition. You remove those kinds of tests and video games will no longer be games.

And that's exactly what western developers want. They want video games to transform into interactive movies and TV toys, because then they won't have to worry about Japan kicking their asses again.

[TonyTheTiger]

Those disappearing blocks in Mega Man 2 present a test of hand-eye coordination and pattern recognition.

Pattern recognition? There's no pattern so to speak. Sometimes those disappearing blocks appear right above your head. If you don't know to jump before it appears you're going to fall. Unless you consider precognition a factor in hand-eye coordination, there's not a whole lot to it other than memorization. And the original Mega Man is even worse. At one point in Wily's castle you're jumping along moving platforms in a corridor of spikes. Those platforms can sometimes lift you right into the spikes above you without the other platforms close enough to jump to. Again, as much as I love the games, sometimes they just make you screw up before you can figure out how to win.

And let's not forget about the birds in Ninja Gaiden which will swoop in and knock you into a hole solely because you didn't know it was there, the solution being to simply attack during the jump or pause for a second before moving forward. Castlevania can sometimes do the same. That's not a matter of hand-eye coordination. That's "fail first and then compensate." Hand-eye coordination is being able to perform a task you've been sufficiently informed needs to be done. It's not a test of hand-eye coordination to blindfold a baseball player and tell him to hit the ball.

[theclaw]

I thought the days of gamers thinking that Japan was the promised land was over. But I guess there are a few remnants left that face themselves towards Tokyo a few times a day wishing they were over there in videogame Heaven.

More or less. There's people around the industry leftover with basic knowledge of old styles. They have to wait around for corporate suits and all to let them loose. Focus tested games pay the bills!

[chilimac]

I suggest you play Bayonetta, Vanquish, Bangai-O HD, After Burner Climax, Mushihimesama Futari and Deathsmiles for examples of Japan's vast superiority of game design. Those are recent games and they destroy anything that has ever come out of the west.

But of course you likely won't see it that way, because you're brain isn't as large as mine or theirs. For people like you there is Dead Space... between the ears.

[Tupin]

If Japanese games aren't about walking down a corridor and fighting, what is Final Fantasy XIII?

Also, if we loved realism more than Japan, WE would have made Densha de Go.

[kedawa]

How about comparing apples to apples.
Jeff Minter's shooters make that bullet hell nonsense look like preschool.

[The 1 2 P]

If Japanese games aren't about walking down a corridor and fighting, what is Final Fantasy XIII?

Also, if we loved realism more than Japan, WE would have made Densha de Go.

You're actually trying to talk common sense to someone who has none. You'd have a better chance at winning the mega millions jackpot.