Trying to get the best video quality with my consoles (and other problems)

[markusman64ds]

I'm...well if you read the title then you know.

But I'm trying to do it without modding my systems. What would be the best video cable options for the following systems?

N64
Wii
Xbox 360 Slim
PS3 Slim
PS1 original model
3DO FZ-1
Dreamcast
Xbox
Saturn
Gamecube
PS2 original model
2600 original model
Intellivision original model
Sega Genesis original model with CD and 32X
NES original model
Master System original model
SNES original model
C64 original model
VIC-20

The TV I use has the following video ports open:

3 HDMI
VGA
Component
Component/Composite
RF

On a side note, which classic console should I get next?
And is there any way to use light guns with HDTVs?

[ApolloBoy]

Without modding, here's your options:

N64 - S-video (you can get S-video to composite converters as you said your TV doesn't have S-video)
Wii - Component
Xbox 360 Slim - HDMI
PS3 Slim - HDMI
PS1 original model - RGB (you can use a SCART to component converter for this)
3DO FZ-1 - S-video
Dreamcast - VGA
Xbox - Component
Saturn - RGB
Gamecube - Component or S-video, depending on the model
PS2 original model - Component
2600 original model - RF
Intellivision original model - RF
Sega Genesis original model with CD and 32X - RGB
NES original model - Composite
Master System original model - RGB
SNES original model - RGB
C64 original model - S-video or composite, depending on the model
VIC-20 - Composite

[markusman64ds]

Without modding, here's your options:

N64 - S-video (you can get S-video to composite converters as you said your TV doesn't have S-video)
Wii - Component
Xbox 360 Slim - HDMI
PS3 Slim - HDMI
PS1 original model - RGB (you can use a SCART to component converter for this)
3DO FZ-1 - S-video
Dreamcast - VGA
Xbox - Component
Saturn - RGB
Gamecube - Component or S-video, depending on the model
PS2 original model - Component
2600 original model - RF
Intellivision original model - RF
Sega Genesis original model with CD and 32X - RGB
NES original model - Composite
Master System original model - RGB
SNES original model - RGB
C64 original model - S-video or composite, depending on the model
VIC-20 - Composite

So does the RGB go in the same ports as the component? Is it the same thing? My C64 is most likely from around the mid 80's. It has grey function keys and a darker paint colour than the original Vic-20. My Gamecube would be from around 2005. I got it new with Mario Party 7.

I do not remember what these are called. Those things where you plug in a box in one port on your TV and it has more ports on the box. I think its called a video splitter? Any good suggestions for those?

I'm using a 50 inch plasma if anyone was wondering.

[ApolloBoy]

So does the RGB go in the same ports as the component? Is it the same thing?
It's not the same thing at all, hence why you need a SCART to component converter for your TV. Just get the converter and an RGB SCART cable for any of the systems that use it, and you're set. RGB uses three signals for color information and then a fourth signal for sync. Component is like S-video in that the brightness and color information are separate, but the color information is split into two signals.


My C64 is most likely from around the mid 80's. It has grey function keys and a darker paint colour than the original Vic-20.
Does it have an 8-pin DIN jack on the back? If so, it'll output S-video.


My Gamecube would be from around 2005. I got it new with Mario Party 7.
In that case your GameCube would be one of the later models which lacks component.


I do not remember what these are called. Those things where you plug in a box in one port on your TV and it has more ports on the box. I think its called a video splitter? Any good suggestions for those?
You mean an AV switchbox? I don't know of any that would support composite, S-video, component and HDMI but you could probably get a separate one for composite and S-video (which most cheaper switchboxes will have) and another for component and HDMI.

[markusman64ds]

You mean an AV switchbox? I don't know of any that would support composite, S-video, component and HDMI but you could probably get a separate one for composite and S-video (which most cheaper switchboxes will have) and another for component and HDMI.

Yeah those things. I made a drawing of how my setup would look with those.

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This would work. I would just need a bunch of switchboxes and SCART to component converters.

How is this for a SCART to component?

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/NEW-SCART-RGB-YUV-Component-Video-Converter-Scaler-/220698772855?pt=US_Audio_Cables_Adapters&hash=item3362ac0577

[ApolloBoy]

How is this for a SCART to component?

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/NEW-SCART-RGB-YUV-Component-Video-Converter-Scaler-/220698772855?pt=US_Audio_Cables_Adapters&hash=item3362ac0577
That's the one! You don't necessarily have to get a bunch, just swap out SCART cables but keep them plugged in at the console end.

[markusman64ds]

That's the one! You don't necessarily have to get a bunch, just swap out SCART cables but keep them plugged in at the console end.

Would it matter if the SCART cable was NTSC or PAL? Or can cables actually be NTSC or PAL? Also, do all the systems you listed with RGB have SCART cables?

EDIT: And on that converter in the eBay listing, I can't see any audio output. Am I missing something?

[ApolloBoy]

Would it matter if the SCART cable was NTSC or PAL? Or can cables actually be NTSC or PAL? Also, do all the systems you listed with RGB have SCART cables?
NTSC/PAL doesn't matter with RGB, and even then the output signal is determined by the console, so your NTSC consoles will output 60 Hz regardless. There are SCART cables available for any console that has RGB out of the box, but you have to be careful as some SCART cables will have composite instead of RGB (SCART is a connector standard which has provisions for several different outputs).

Pretty much all of the SCART to component converters don't have audio, but you can find SCART breakout boxes that go between the SCART cable and the converter, giving you standard RCA audio jacks. If you're good with a soldering iron you can also modify the converter itself with audio cables or jacks.

[markusman64ds]

Pretty much all of the SCART to component converters don't have audio, but you can find SCART breakout boxes that go between the SCART cable and the converter, giving you standard RCA audio jacks. If you're good with a soldering iron you can also modify the converter itself with audio cables or jacks.

So approximately how much would it cost to mod the converter?

[ApolloBoy]

So approximately how much would it cost to mod the converter?
Well, if you'd like me to mod it I could probably charge $10+return shipping. I've done mine before (although I use a Sony PVM monitor with RGB now) and it's actually pretty easy.

[markusman64ds]

Well, if you'd like me to mod it I could probably charge $10+return shipping. I've done mine before (although I use a Sony PVM monitor with RGB now) and it's actually pretty easy.

If I had a good guide I could probably do it myself. I would just need to know how. The most I've done with mods is the NES region free mod, and even then I cut the wrong pin, twice :help:

[markusman64ds]

On the topic of getting the best out of my systems, I have problems with my Genesis and SNES. They work fine, but with the Genesis it's annoying to look at and with the SNES I think it may lead to problems in the future. The Genesis has that pin missing from the controller ports and the SNES has a broken power port.

53135314

Should I get new systems? Are there any easy fixes for these problems?

Also, when I found my current C64 at a store for $3 I was so excited that I dropped it and broke off one of they keys. Can these be fixed easily too?

EDIT: I tried the RF systems on the plasma screen. The 2600 is fine, but the picture on the Intellivision is very shaky.

[APE992]

I have multiple RGB modded N64s available if you need one. They look amazing on my Sony PVM displays.

[markusman64ds]

Looking up more about SCART, it looks like it would cost a lot and probably isn't worth the trouble. S-Video seems like the way to go. Is S-Video the second best unmodded video for the PS1/Saturn/Genesis/SNES/Master System?

And would this be a good VGA box for Dreamcast?

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Sega-Dreamcast-VGA-Cable-VGA-Box-NEW-/320926470457?pt=Video_Games_Accessories&hash=item4ab8b55139

Just to remind everyone, here are my questions so far besides those ones;

Should I get new Genesis/SNES systems or are they easy fixes?
Should I replace my C64 keyboard or can that be fixed too?
Why is the video on the Intellivision shaky?
^For those 3 see my last post.

Which classic console should I get next?
Is there any way to use light guns and ROB with HDTVs?

[ApolloBoy]

Looking up more about SCART, it looks like it would cost a lot and probably isn't worth the trouble. S-Video seems like the way to go. Is S-Video the second best unmodded video for the PS1/Saturn/Genesis/SNES/Master System?
You can get S-video unmodded out of the SNES, PS1 and Saturn, but you need to mod your Genesis and SMS for S-video. Getting SCART cables might be a little pricey but the picture quality through RGB is absolutely incredible. I use RGB for a lot of my systems and I haven't regretted it one bit. It is definitely worth the trouble.

[markusman64ds]

You can get S-video unmodded out of the SNES, PS1 and Saturn, but you need to mod your Genesis and SMS for S-video. Getting SCART cables might be a little pricey but the picture quality through RGB is absolutely incredible. I use RGB for a lot of my systems and I haven't regretted it one bit. It is definitely worth the trouble.

I will be fine with S-video. So does that mean the best video for Genesis and Master System is composite? And is that VGA box on eBay a good one?

[ApolloBoy]

I will be fine with S-video. So does that mean the best video for Genesis and Master System is composite? And is that VGA box on eBay a good one?
The second best video for the Genesis and SMS will be composite, which isn't very good on both. It doesn't take much to mod either for S-video and it's a huge step up from composite. Not sure about the DC VGA box as I don't have much experience with that.

[markusman64ds]

Cool. So now that that's cleared up, it's time to find out why the RF connection from my Intellivision isn't doing great. It will work fine on a CRT, but on my plasma TV the picture is very shaky. Is it the TV or is it the system? How do I fix it?

[APE992]

Cool. So now that that's cleared up, it's time to find out why the RF connection from my Intellivision isn't doing great. It will work fine on a CRT, but on my plasma TV the picture is very shaky. Is it the TV or is it the system? How do I fix it?

You can't and don't fix it. RF is garbage and modern displays aren't built to make an attempt at making it look good. There is a composite mod:
http://www.intellivision.us/video_mod/video_mod.php

[markusman64ds]

You can't and don't fix it. RF is garbage and modern displays aren't built to make an attempt at making it look good. There is a composite mod:
http://www.intellivision.us/video_mod/video_mod.php

I barely play my Intellivision anyway, so if I have to I'll just get out one of my old TVs.

Any problems with my Genesis should be ignored because I'm replacing it with an X'Eye soon, but there is still the problem with my SNES power port.

5314

Is my SNES ok or should I replace the port? I have an extra SNES I'm not using.

[APE992]

I barely play my Intellivision anyway, so if I have to I'll just get out one of my old TVs.

Any problems with my Genesis should be ignored because I'm replacing it with an X'Eye soon, but there is still the problem with my SNES power port.

5314

Is my SNES ok or should I replace the port? I have an extra SNES I'm not using.

If it works I wouldn't bother it as there isn't much chance of that becoming an electrical problem. More likely it'll fall apart completely later and become unusable long before it'd be capable of a fire I'd wager.

FWIW X'EYEs are a huge PITA. The switch that detects the lid is cheap and the motors seem ready to fail (despite being identical to those in the SegaCD 2). Modding them for S-Video, overclock (10mhz is a sweet spot that works very well) and a region free BIOS are fairly easy due to being virtually identical to the Genesis 2. Extremely temperamental on the CD side of things sadly.

[markusman64ds]

How does the 32X work with the X'eye? Does it need any spacers? And can you use those metal things you stick in the cartridge port?

[theclaw]

On top of that... X'eye ended up with lower Master System compatibility than its relative CDX. As little as American users even cared by 1991 let alone 1994. No idea how well SMS did in Canada.

X'exe was made so the first Power Base Converter won't fit, and broke soft reset into SMS mode. CDX has neither of these issues.


How does the 32X work with the X'eye? Does it need any spacers? And can you use those metal things you stick in the cartridge port?

I believe 32X should work like model 2 on most X'eyes. It wouldn't run on the apparent X'eye revision without RGB output (32X requires RGB internally), but I don't have actual proof such units exist.

[markusman64ds]

On top of that... X'eye ended up with lower Master System compatibility than its relative CDX. As little as American users even cared by 1991 let alone 1994. No idea how well SMS did in Canada.

X'exe was made so the first Power Base Converter won't fit, and broke soft reset into SMS mode. CDX has neither of these issues.



I believe 32X should work like model 2 on most X'eyes. It wouldn't run on the apparent X'eye revision without RGB output (32X requires RGB internally), but I don't have actual proof such units exist.

Would you say the X'eye is better than a Genesis 1 and Sega CD 1? I want it because it saves room on my shelves, plus it's rare.

[APE992]

Would you say the X'eye is better than a Genesis 1 and Sega CD 1? I want it because it saves room on my shelves, plus it's rare.

Nope, it is a worse off console. Rarity means nothing given the optics are prone to failure simply due to being shipped.

Internally it is a Genesis 2, virtually identical with virtually identical flaws. Some X'EYEs also don't have the port necessary for using a 32x with it but it can be reinstalled if you really know what you're doing (surface mount soldering skills required). I contemplated adding it back into an X'EYE I modded for wingzrow here on DP but I didn't have anything for which to pull the connector from. S-Video went off without a hitch once I found a good circuit to use (but it looks identical to a Genesis 2 with S-Video FWIW). If you really want rarity find the Aiwa Mega CD.

Realistically you won't save any space on that shelf. At least not much horizontally.

[markusman64ds]

I might get it anyway, just to see how it works. If it works the way I want it too, then it stays. If it doesn't work the way I want, I could always sell it. I know a collector around my area who would enjoy owning one.
5324
Next, I am looking to fix my C64 keyboard. I already said this, but when I found it for such a low price I got excited and dropped it. One of the keys broke off. I still have the key, so is it easy to repair? Would some glue do the job?

[markusman64ds]

And because it's interesting, what would the best video be on my systems if I DID mod them?

[theclaw]

N64 some models can do RGB. 3DO also has ways AFAIK.

Turbografx is perhaps where this mode pays off most relative to effort. All the way from RF to RGB. If PC Engine is any indication, it should make a serious contender against the good Neo Geo revisions in video purity when done correct.

[markusman64ds]

I got a message back from the guy selling the X'Eye. He said that the power adapter is not original but comes from retrogamecave.com. Is this a good site for replacement adapters?

[APE992]

N64 some models can do RGB. 3DO also has ways AFAIK.

Turbografx is perhaps where this mode pays off most relative to effort. All the way from RF to RGB. If PC Engine is any indication, it should make a serious contender against the good Neo Geo revisions in video purity when done correct.

Getting composite out of a TG-16 isn't difficult (just two wires and a connector) but there is an annoying hum bar that rolls up the scroll at a slow rate. Not sure if it exists on all models but each one that I've handled has had it.

As for the N64 only models sporting the NUS-CPU-03 and NUS-CPU-04 boards are RGB moddable. They aren't incredibly rare by any means but you'll have to do some searching to find them. I've been stock piling them for a while now and have no less than 6 in this room with 7 and 8 on their way.

[theclaw]

Maybe that has something to do with an unclear difference between TG-16 and Japanese consoles? I've never looked into it. Don't ATM have any NEC unit on hand. Despite keeping some games and a controller for a rainy day.

[markusman64ds]

Ok, I tried my systems with another TV I have. They all work fine with that, so I'm gonna use it from now on. It's a 32" RCA LCD TV. It's smaller, but more compatible. Plus it has an s-video input.

So that X'Eye power supply I'm getting will work ok, right?

[markusman64ds]

The small TV is getting annoying. It's not as good as the 50" one. I'm thinking that an RF to composite converter might make the Intellivision work better. Would it? Also, would an S-video to composite converter keep the video at S-video quality?

[APE992]

The small TV is getting annoying. It's not as good as the 50" one. I'm thinking that an RF to composite converter might make the Intellivision work better. Would it? Also, would an S-video to composite converter keep the video at S-video quality?

Nope. It'll look worse than it did on the smaller TV. Every time you convert a signal the quality degrades.

The only thing you can do with the Intellvision is to get an composite video mod done so you can use it without an adapter on the 50" screen.

Alternatively:
http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:intellivision_pal

This might be useful on a NTSC console. There is a schematic for RGB output which you could then use with an upscaler to use component video with. Wouldn't look half bad.

[markusman64ds]

The X'Eye works fine. The video cables it came with aren't working though. They look fine, but they show no picture and play no sound. It has yellow, red, and white cables.

The video cables I already had came with the 32X, which I got pretty much brand new. It's only yellow and white cables, and they work fine with my Master System, but when I play on my Genesis/X'Eye the image flashes in certain situations. Not all the time, just sometimes. Like in Sonic & Knuckles it only flashes on the opening logos and when it shows the level name. But with Earthworm Jim, it doesn't flash on the menus or when the level name is shown, but flashes every other time. It doesn't make the screen completely white, it's more like someone was turning the brightness up and down.

[markusman64ds]

I just tried the Genesis video cables that kept flashing on the LCD on a CRT. They work fine there. It was then that I also remembered how good stuff looks on a CRT. I started wondering, would a projector with a lot of video inputs be a good alternative to a CRT? Do they work similar and have no lag?

Only problem there is where to put the Wii sensor bar or the Kinect sensor. Maybe a little shelf?

[markusman64ds]

Thinking about RGB again. Is this a good eBay store for cables?

http://www.ebay.ca/sch/retro_console_accessories/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p3686

It looks okay. This would be the converter I'm gonna use.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/NEW-SCART-RGB-YPbPr-Component-Video-Converter-Scaler-/220698773457?pt=US_Audio_Cables_Adapters&hash=item3362ac07d1

I read that European and Japanese SCART cables are wired differently. Does that converter use European or Japanese SCART?

I also got component for Wii and HDMI for 360.

[APE992]

They're an OK ebay store. The converter probably uses European SCART cables but if it doesn't the cables can be easily rewired to work.

Keep in mind that NTSC GameCubes and N64s don't output RGB natively. If you're going to use a Wii then you don't need to worry about GameCube games but I do have a few RGB modded N64s if you're planning on playing Mario Kart or the like. 3DOs also need to be modded for RGB IIRC.

[markusman64ds]

But I'm trying to do it without modding my systems.

Instead of a projector I might try to find a flat screen HD CRT. They seem great for gaming. I'm just not sure if they made them flat screen.

Also, when using the component cables on the Wii, whenever a white screen like the Wii menu comes up, the top looks kinda fuzzy. Is this the TV?

538753885389

[theclaw]

It seems to me large amounts of white or certain other colors are a problem. On my CRT with your above linked converter I can get Sega Genesis screen rolling over component in specific parts of games, as if they output too strong of signal. Consistent results (like file select screen) make Sonic 3 a very useful test subject.

[markusman64ds]

It seems to me large amounts of white or certain other colors are a problem. On my CRT with your above linked converter I can get Sega Genesis screen rolling over component in specific parts of games, as if they output too strong of signal. Consistent results (like file select screen) make Sonic 3 a very useful test subject.

Oh, that's what screen rolling is. I had no idea. So is it that the TV can't handle the signal?

And do SCART cables output audio, or do I have to get a specific cable with audio cables?

EDIT: You own the converter, so can you confirm if it uses European or Japanese SCART?

[theclaw]

Your problem looks different than mine. What I get can't be shown accurate in a still photo... This happens presumably 60 times per second.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v54/theclaw/special/P0005977.jpg

Yes SCART cables output audio. The converter does not. Your best option is a breakout box, let you split away the sound to wherever you'd like.
It is European SCART.


Actually though, my pic is NOT from a "Genesis" at all. I used Japanese Megadrive instead. With European SCART, on an American TV, it works!

[markusman64ds]

Earlier someone was talking about modding the converter to have audio jacks. If I don't do that, is this an ok box?

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/8237B-SCART-ADAPTOR-A-V-BREAKOUT-/180908027488?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Video_Ca bles_Adapters&hash=item2a1ef56e60

Can you try the Mega Drive or Genesis or whatever on an LCD, to see if we have a similar problem?

[theclaw]

Nope, can't test what you want. My LCD does not accept 240p from component.

That box looks OK. All it has to do is ignore RGB and sync, passing it through unchanged to the other end's socket.

[APE992]

Your insistence on not modding your systems is keeping in logic loops that lead you to consider some really stupid options such as an RF to composite converter.

If you keep asking the same question you'll keep getting the same answer. If something doesn't support RGB native you are forced to mod. At some point you're either going to have to accept defeat and not get the best out of a non-RGB capable system or mod them.

[burn_654]

I know Dreamcast has VGA support (480p progressive it looks like) but what's the best option for an SD CRT tv (a nice 36 inch Trinitron) with component input (480i)?

Would it make sense to use an RGB Scart cable with the common scart to component box to get an rgb 480i/240p signal? Or would scart rgb be stuck on progressive (not compatible with my tv)?
Am I better off just using S-Video?

[theclaw]

You can do that. Dreamcast and Xbox 360 are two of the few consoles to widely support both SCART and VGA.

(PS2's not-often-seen VGA cable wasn't a general release. Sold only in the Linux kit, with limited game compatibility)

[markusman64ds]

I like to keep my systems original. If you mod them they aren't as original even if they are more functional. But hey! I hooked the RF systems up to a VCR that outputs composite, and now the picture looks fine on my 50". It's back in my gaming setup now. Component on Wii works fine with it too. I can't see very much lag on this TV, so maybe I won't get an HD CRT after all. I just hope it will work with the SCART to component converter.

[theclaw]

As long as you take it intelligently. The idea is to first ensure they'll have actual purpose.

[markusman64ds]

Super Mario World on Virtual Console works fine with component, so I think the converter will work. This is a good way to check right?

[APE992]

I like to keep my systems original. If you mod them they aren't as original even if they are more functional. But hey! I hooked the RF systems up to a VCR that outputs composite, and now the picture looks fine on my 50". It's back in my gaming setup now. Component on Wii works fine with it too. I can't see very much lag on this TV, so maybe I won't get an HD CRT after all. I just hope it will work with the SCART to component converter.

I agree to an extent. When I do my mods I try to use existing ports (the N64 RGB mod does nothing to the casing and is 100% internal simply restoring what Nintendo was going to do) or add ports in a way that looks factory (Genesis S-Video jack goes where RF was or is just to the side like it was done with the X'EYE).

Obviously this can be more difficult with other consoles such as the 2600.

[markusman64ds]

Playing Virtual Console games on component video is a good way to check if 240p will work on your TV right?

Also, I heard you aren't supposed to leave older game consoles plugged in when they aren't being used. What if they were plugged into a power strip that was turned off but still plugged in? Would that effect them in anyway? It would mean I wouldn't have to go behind my TV to plug in each system I wanna use. Is there a power strip that has an on/off switch for each outlet?

It has also been said that converting video signals will degrade the quality. What about with an AV switchbox?

[markusman64ds]

If it helps, here are the specs of my TV:

http://www.samsung.com/us/video/tvs/PN50C490B3DXZA-specs

[theclaw]

When it all boils down there's really one prime rule for flat panel TVs. If feeding their inputs poor video that's the result to expect.

Remember obviously you'll be scaling to a very large size. Any flaws who result from composite or RF video could be quite noticeable.

[markusman64ds]

When it all boils down there's really one prime rule for flat panel TVs. If feeding their inputs poor video that's the result to expect.

Remember obviously you'll be scaling to a very large size. Any flaws who result from composite or RF video could be quite noticeable.

Wouldn't the flaws already be there if you were using a CRT? Even if they are more noticeable on an HDTV, that's how they always were.

Plasma TVs are kind of like CRTs. The picture isn't as sharp as LCDs and can burn-in, but they are cheaper.

[theclaw]

Technically perhaps. Well just take that as advice or a warning. You'll learn which from experience.

Knowing where staying original can have good results, vs where it's a sacrifice to save money, will tell how this topic's story ends. Like using composite on consoles you're aware are capable of better without any mods would be the latter.

[alec006]

You also have to remember that most all classic consoles were designed for CRTs therefore flaws in the composite connection even in the RF connection are masked over since CRTs are low resolution monitors. When upgrading to the best possible signal, most of the flaws disappear or are less apparent since most of the picture is crystal clear.

When it comes to modding consoles to achieve a better picture, here's something to think about. Lets take the Colecovision for instance, something that was made in 1982 way before S-Video was being implemented and a few decades before component was even being thought of. But the video chip inside it is able to output component (YUV). So in tern if the technology at the time allowed for component video, we would had component video on the Colecovision as a standard factory option. By modifying it to achieve this, intern your not actually modifying it, your actually just adding something that was already there, just not used at the time, so it is original, just not implemented because of the technology standard at the time.

In my opinion if a console is able to achieve a higher video or audio signal just by tapping into what's already on the circuit board then it's less than a modification, it's an upgrade that would have been there from the factory if technology at the time allowed for it. The only console that I can think of that actually has to be "modified" for a better video signal is the NES/Famicom and that requires replacing a processor, that's a modification.

Remember if the companies didn't want you to have a better picture then, even in the future, then they would have built a video processor that outputs nothing but RF.

[theclaw]

I suppose. The baseline of standard console' ideal video is what its graphics chip generates. Can't get better than raw form without some kind of scaling/filtering magic or hardware upgrades. Though sometimes dithering effects are bad enough to make some blur a popularly accepted trade-off.

Unusual systems like Virtual Boy are special cases, those have effects few TVs if any will show perfect.

[markusman64ds]

The thought of a 30 year old console outputing component is amusing. Still, even a video mod where you just add wires and connectors would be changing the system from it's original design. And if I mod one system for the best video then I will want to mod them all, even the rarer ones. I don't really think anyone expected the ColecoVision to be used with component. If they did then they would have included the ports on the back. Using the best unmodded video shows how the consoles would have looked like back in the day, if they had HDTV. Someday HDMI on PS3 will look terrible compared to the new stuff, but I will still use it because it is how it was meant to be played.

Sometime next-gen or the one after that they are coming out with 4320p. Imagine how PS3 will look on that! I'm just hoping that by then TVs will have CRT emulators.

[theclaw]

The thought of a 30 year old console outputing component is amusing. Still, even a video mod where you just add wires and connectors would be changing the system from it's original design. And if I mod one system for the best video then I will want to mod them all, even the rarer ones. I don't really think anyone expected the ColecoVision to be used with component. If they did then they would have included the ports on the back. Using the best unmodded video shows how the consoles would have looked like back in the day, if they had HDTV. Someday HDMI on PS3 will look terrible compared to the new stuff, but I will still use it because it is how it was meant to be played.

Sometime next-gen or the one after that they are coming out with 4320p. Imagine how PS3 will look on that! I'm just hoping that by then TVs will have CRT emulators.

That leads to a question of hardware designer vs game developer. Who's to say who's really correct?

In my opinion I view it from the other side. If graphics artists wanted their work to resemble composite video, they would have drawn and envisioned such.

[Gameguy]

In my opinion I view it from the other side. If graphics artists wanted their work to resemble composite video, they would have drawn and envisioned such.
Some did, with the Genesis some games were designed to take advantage of RF and composite video blending colours together to expand the colours capable by the system. Plus shadows and transparency effects were created in similar ways.

[markusman64ds]

Anyways, let's get back to the questions.

If I leave my old systems plugged into a power strip that is turned off but plugged in, will it still damage the systems?
Is there a power strip with an on/off switch for each outlet?
Will AV switchboxes bring down the video quality?

[alec006]

Anyways, let's get back to the questions.

If I leave my old systems plugged into a power strip that is turned off but plugged in, will it still damage the systems?
Is there a power strip with an on/off switch for each outlet?
Will AV switchboxes bring down the video quality?

Well if the power to the power strip is off then no power is being fed to the DC transformers so that they don't have constant wear on them.

Ask for switch boxes, if it's a powered switched box, minimal to no signal loss is introduced.

Unpowered switch boxes, most every box I've ever used, every input introduces a signal loss.

[APE992]

At some point you'll have to thrown in the towel and mod some consoles for better picture. Once you can get component or RGB output then you're pretty much set for the future unless a replacement DAC is created.

The other point is that eventually RF input and composite video will likely be removed from TVs completely. I'm sure there will be signal converters but they will be god awful ugly in terms of picture quality.

[markusman64ds]

At some point you'll have to thrown in the towel and mod some consoles for better picture. Once you can get component or RGB output then you're pretty much set for the future unless a replacement DAC is created.

The other point is that eventually RF input and composite video will likely be removed from TVs completely. I'm sure there will be signal converters but they will be god awful ugly in terms of picture quality.

Thinking about this now. It can be better to play your games in great quality than crappy quality. But before I make any mods to my systems, would modding them bring the value up or down? I guess it depends on the person really. Some systems you don't even have to mod to get their best video!

If my systems were modded for best video, therefore completely missing the point of the thread, here is what they would have.

2600 - S-video
Intellivision - Composite
VIC-20 - S-video
C64 - S-video (unmodded)
NES - RGB
Master System - RGB (unmodded)
SNES - RGB (unmodded)
X'Eye - RGB (unmodded)
3DO - RGB
Saturn - RGB (unmodded)
PS1 - RGB (unmodded)
N64 - RGB sometimes
Dreamcast - VGA (unmodded)
PS2 - Component (unmodded)
Gamecube - S-video unless I can find one with component (unmodded)
Xbox - Component (unmodded)
360 - HDMI (unmodded)
Wii - Component (unmodded)
PS3 - HDMI (unmodded)

Wow, I only have to mod 6! And I was thinking that if I modded one for best video, I would want to mod them all, but there are only 6 that need it so..... I might mod them. Depends on if it makes the value go up or down.

Anyone getting sick of the word mod now?

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/images/products/frajen-bath-sheet__0102651_PE248019_S4.JPG

EDIT: Can you mod a TV to add more ports?

[markusman64ds]

I looked up some of the mods. Some seem hard to do/cost a lot. For the NES RGB you need to buy a rare chip, and I read that the RGB mod makes some colors display incorrectly. I wouldn't want to mod just one for best video. If I mod one I would want to mod the rest that need it. I was playing my 2600 earllier on an RF signal and it looks fine to me, and it will be at least a few years before RF and composite are removed from TVs. Many people still use those connections.

I won't mod them for now, and since my current TV can display these connections with acceptable quality, I'll probably keep it as my classic gaming TV in the future, when CRTs are gone. I'm still gonna try to get the best available cables for my systems though.

But I'm still wondering if it's possible to add more inputs to my TV. On the side there are three spaces that look like they could fit composite ports.
5467
If I can mod the TV, I'll use this spot for S-video.

[alec006]

Not much difference but a few people don't like it:

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m137/darkknux_2006/Fami_Comp_RGB_Difference.jpg

But again is a true mod since the PPU was designed for arcade machines, and a few hit and miss games don't work for it. It's not too bad thou. It's sad the original PPU combines the luma and chroma inside the chip otherwise S-Video would be an option.

[markusman64ds]

Not much difference but a few people don't like it:

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m137/darkknux_2006/Fami_Comp_RGB_Difference.jpg

But again is a true mod since the PPU was designed for arcade machines, and a few hit and miss games don't work for it. It's not too bad thou. It's sad the original PPU combines the luma and chroma inside the chip otherwise S-Video would be an option.

I'm not a genius with modding, so this idea may not work. Would it be possible to install the Playchoice PPU onto a seperate circuit board that is wired to certain pins on the original PPU so you can use RGB but still have the original colors? Like using both chips at the same time.

[markusman64ds]

So are those spaces on my TV just part of a reused case, or can you mod the TV?

[APE992]

Sure, but you'll probably kill/hurt yourself doing it if it is a CRT.

And you can get RGB out of every console - if you mod it. Just because the public at large is only aware of S-Video on a 2600 doesn't mean there isn't RGB.

[theclaw]

We have a source for 2600 RGB PPUs? I guess transcoding from s-video to RGB could get very close results.

[alec006]

I'm not a genius with modding, so this idea may not work. Would it be possible to install the Playchoice PPU onto a seperate circuit board that is wired to certain pins on the original PPU so you can use RGB but still have the original colors? Like using both chips at the same time.

I don't think that would be technically possible being that they are two similar but totally different chips.

If you had someone create a Playchoice PPU with the NES colour pallet then yes, but that would be super expensive.


Sure, but you'll probably kill/hurt yourself doing it if it is a CRT.

And you can get RGB out of every console - if you mod it. Just because the public at large is only aware of S-Video on a 2600 doesn't mean there isn't RGB.

Can the 2600 do RGB? The TIA only outputs chroma & luma signals so that's why S-Video is the easiest option being S-Video is separation of the two signals.

Also speaking of luma, the TIA has 3 Luma outputs it seems, that's abit interesting.

Now is there a chip that can take those signals and produce RGB?

[markusman64ds]

Sure, but you'll probably kill/hurt yourself doing it if it is a CRT.

And you can get RGB out of every console - if you mod it. Just because the public at large is only aware of S-Video on a 2600 doesn't mean there isn't RGB.

It's a plasma screen so I think I'm okay. But instead of modding the TV, which would be fairly difficult, I might get an S-video to YPbPr adapter. According to the internets, S-video, RGB and YPbPr are all component video because they have more than one video signal, so it would be better than an S-video to composite adapter. That, the RGB to YPbPr converter, and a DVI to HDMI adapter would be all I need other than cables and the Dreamcast VGA box.

This S-vid to component looks good. Awfully expensive though.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/TV-Composite-S-Video-RGB-Component-Video-Converter-/120864414787?pt=US_Video_Cables_Adapters&hash=item1c24149c43

[theclaw]

Hm. A bit unique device. Better than s-video to composite. Of not as good as upscaling RGB/component to simulate HD.

You can't add quality. Once source video has been downgraded, that's it. Making sure the entire link in a console's display chain stays at s-video or greater is one step in the right direction.

[markusman64ds]

Why do Gamecube component cables cost so much?

http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_nkw=gamecube+component+cables&_sacat=0&_dmpt=Video_Games_Accessories&_odkw=PS2+component+cables&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313

And I don't see any audio out on these.