I got a new Retro gaming TV that is a dream come true... Check out Bonk on it

[WCP]

I've known for quite some time that Sony makes some incredible professional monitors, that can be used with old video game systems. Many older game systems can output RGB. If you can get that RGB signal to some of these Sony monitors, the end results can be fantastic. The thing is, normally it's very difficult to find a Sony PVM or BVM monitor in really good condition. I've owned a number of them over the years, and they all have one problem or another. Of course, all of these have been well used, and have probably seen countless hours of use in some video prodction facility or what not. I've never got ahold of one in perfect condition. Till now....

I was able to buy an almost brand new Sony PVM-20M2MDU monitor. I say "almost" brand new, because the monitor had been used, but only for maybe a month, if that. It was manufactured in September 2003, and it was used for about a month, and then packed away and never used again. Here is an example of what it looks like:

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g428/WCP12/pvm20l2mdLG.jpg


These monitors were made for the medical industry. They are typically used as endoscopy monitors. Luckily, they also work extremely well for analog rgb devices like old school video games. I was able to borrow a buddies RGB modded TG-16, and test the puppy out. Only had two games to play unfortunately. Keith Courage and Bonk's Adventure. These pictures aren't going to do the real thing justice. Trust me, in person this monitor looks absolutely spectacular. I've seen RGB modded Turbografx systems before on various monitors, and they almost always look good, but this goes even beyond that. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that this monitor is basically brand new. All of the other monitors I've seen are from the mid 90's, and they've seen heavy usage. This baby is like it just came from the factory a week ago.


http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g428/WCP12/DCP_8221.jpg
Keith Courage


http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g428/WCP12/DCP_8233.jpg

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g428/WCP12/DCP_8237.jpg

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g428/WCP12/DCP_8225.jpg


http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g428/WCP12/DCP_8253.jpg

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g428/WCP12/DCP_8229.jpg




Unfortunately, I just don't think the pictures above really do this monitor justice. I don't have the kind of camera that would be necessary to try to capture what the quality is like. The only way I could describe it, is that it was similar to like when you would go to a local Arcade, and they just got in a brand new cabinent, and you can tell that everything is new. The monitor is crystal clear, and sharp. The color and detail is just off the charts. I can see every tiny little detail. I can't recommend these Sony monitors highly enough. Especially if you can get one in near new condition, one that was made in 2002 or later and doesn't have a ton of hours on it. I think the BVM-20F1U is even better than this one, but I haven't had any luck finding one in near perfect condition. For now though, I'm perfectly happy with this one. :)

[wingzrow]

Outstanding pictures. I too hope one day to find a RGB monitor like yours. My sony trinitron only does S-Video at most.

What size is it, and what kind of jacks does it have in the back? If it has composite, s-video, AND RGB, I may have to track one down myself.

[Tron 2.0]

The picture for that monitor looks sharp to me and how much do they go for ?

[treismac]

Wow. That monitor looks absolutely beautiful!!! Very nice find. I need to make some contacts in the medical industry.

[wiggyx]

Pics of CRTs always suck. That said, the colors in those pics are beyond intense! Looks incredible. I think I have a toy to start hunting for...

Good find!

[WCP]

What size is it, and what kind of jacks does it have in the back? If it has composite, s-video, AND RGB, I may have to track one down myself.


The monitor is a 20 inch monitor, but I think the screen size is 19 inches viewable. It has composite, S-video, RGB and component (the component is non-progressive scan). It also has a single speaker, but I just send the audio to my stereo. One thing I must mention, is that the connections on the back are BNC type connectors, so you have to go to Radio Shack to get the little BNC adpaters to use regular RCA type cables with it. I'm pretty sure all the professional Sony monitors are like that.


The picture for that monitor looks sharp to me and how much do they go for ?

A used Sony PVM-20M2MDU can go for as cheap as 50 bucks, to as high as one grand. Just depends on where you're getting it from. The most I would pay is about $200, and that would only be for a brand new one. I paid $100 for the one I got. I did an Ebay search and turned this up:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/290784906330

That guy is selling supposedly brand new ones for $150 plus shipping. If these are truly brand new, then it is an absolute steal. It's extremely rare to see a brand new Sony PVM being sold for less than $500 or more. It says in the auction that the guy has 10 of them. Maybe he has a warehouse that just had a ton of them sitting in there, and they are just liquidating them or something.



Wow. That monitor looks absolutely beautiful!!! Very nice find. I need to make some contacts in the medical industry.

There are lots of different kinds of Sony PVM and BVM monitors that will work. You don't have to get one of the medical ones. I only got this one because I found a guy locally that had one that was used in a medical office for only about a month, and then put away in storage for about 9 years. Honestly, the best Sony monitors that I've seen for use with old school video game consoles are the BVM-20F1U monitors. Those things are absolutely spectacular. Back in the early 2000's, you could buy a brand new BVM-20F1U for the nice tidy sum of 14 grand. I'm not joking. The Sony BVM 20F1U actually sold for 13 to 14 grand brand spanking new in the early 2000's. You might wonder how the fuck Sony could get so much money for them? Well, primarily they were used in Television production studios. For example, you know how Monday Night Football has these TV production trucks that they send to the site of each game ? Well back in the late 1990's and early 2000's, I'd imagine that they would have maybe 30 or 40 BVM-20F1U's rack mounted on their trucks for use with the production of the broadcast.

The amazing thing is, you can find these BVM-20F1U's on Ebay now for as cheap as $100 or $200, but you still have to be careful. Some of these monitors were used in situations in which they would be running almost 24/7. You don't want to get one that has a ton of hours on it. Also, preferably, you'd want to get one that was manufactured in 2002 or 2003 or 2004 or something like that. You don't want one from 1996, because it's probably seen so much use over the years, that it's lifespan could be running out, or it could have other issues. Still, if you can find one in good condition, made in the 2000's, with relatively low hours on it, then you can enjoy some unbelievably high quality video signals from any console that is capable of analog RGB output.

[jb143]

At my last job we had some of these(or something very similar at least) on our surface mount pick-and-place machines. They were attached to some kind of microscope camera so you could see the components up close. They had a really sharp picture and I always thought they'd make great gaming monitors.

[wingzrow]

"It only has one speaker"

Does the BVM-20F1U happen to two speakers?

If neither has it, what's my best option if I want to make one of these my main retro gaming TV?

I'm seriously considering ordering one as an early Christmas present.

PS: They never made these in 27 did they?

[Tanooki]

I've seen those tv's before and they do CRT some fine justice when it comes to games. I'd bother finding one but I have a Sharp NES TV in exceptionally good shape which I get awesome results on with that or through the RF the Master System and N64 I have jacked into it too.

[Jack_Burton_BYOAC]

The 20M2MDU has an incredible picture and it's in the running for best retro display device, but I would also consider an NEC XM 29 or a Mitsubishi AR series to be very, very close or better in certain ways.

One cool thing you can do if you are just looking to test what it looks like or want a taste of the same sort of razor sharp, pixel perfect performance of the PVM series is you can use a CRT PC monitor like this one.

http://www.transvideo.com/images/for_sale/559.jpg

Take note that this monitor is a trinitron too, but it doesn't really have to be. All it needs is to be able to support 240p at 120hz. By doubling the refresh rate of standard 240p/60hz you can enable true 240p RGB on pretty much any old CRT monitor made in the last 15 years. The only visible difference from a regular 60hz 240p mode is that there will be less flicker to the screen, and that's usually a -good- thing. Too bad this is pretty much only possible with emulators.

[Edmond Dantes]

I've seen devices that allow you to use computer monitors as televisions, and hook up RGB or S-Video devices into them.

My main concern with such a thing would be light gun games. I'm given to understand that they only work on certain kinds of monitors. I have an Emerson TV with a built-in VCR and DVD player (works great, but for Playstation or above games I often have to turn the brightness or contrast up because it makes the picture dark) that I've used since about 2005 and it hasn't let me down yet.

[WCP]

"It only has one speaker"

Does the BVM-20F1U happen to two speakers?

If neither has it, what's my best option if I want to make one of these my main retro gaming TV?

I'm seriously considering ordering one as an early Christmas present.

PS: They never made these in 27 did they?


Well, the thing is, the built in speakers on any TV is usually going to be crap. That's just the way it is, so I always run the audio to somewhere else. If you just need a super tiny amp to connect two speakers to, then I'd recommend a Dayton DTA-1 amp. It's a little tiny amp that provides good sound, and allows you to hook two speakers up to it. The input on it is like a microphone jack type input, and you just go to radio shack and get a thing that has a microphone jack on one end, and a red and white female RCA connectors on the other end, and you're in business.


There are 25 inch Sony PVM's, and I think 27 inches as well, but honestly, I'd stick with the 20 inch ones. You can get a Sony PVM-2530, which I believe is 25 inches, but I've owned 3 of those things over the last 10 years, and all 3 of them have had various problems. Plus, I think they stopped making them in the late 90's, so you're not going to find one that was made in 2003 or anything like that. More likely they will have been made in 1995, and have a ton of wear and tear from heavy usage. Again, the 20 inch Sony BVM-20F1U is the gold standard.




Here is a couple of Genesis pics on my monitor:

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g428/WCP12/DCP_8259.jpg

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g428/WCP12/DCP_8292.jpg

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g428/WCP12/DCP_8295.jpg

[Jack_Burton_BYOAC]

I've seen devices that allow you to use computer monitors as televisions, and hook up RGB or S-Video devices into them.

My main concern with such a thing would be light gun games. I'm given to understand that they only work on certain kinds of monitors. I have an Emerson TV with a built-in VCR and DVD player (works great, but for Playstation or above games I often have to turn the brightness or contrast up because it makes the picture dark) that I've used since about 2005 and it hasn't let me down yet.

Those devices will scale the image up to some higher resolution like 640x480. They don't provide the ability to play in native 240p. As far as I know there aren't any dedicated devices out there that will double the vertical scan rate of a signal coming from a game console.

If there's one drawback to using PC monitors as your primary display it is that they aren't designed to give off as much luminosity as a TV because you're usually less than two feet from them. That can make games look a little bit dull.


That PVM is looking nice and bright. Even though it is technically a monitor it still has the same luminousity specs as a tv, or maybe even better. For colorful games you'll never beat it. I agree that the 20 inch size is about right. Over that size the reliability of these sorts start to plummet. I've owned about a dozen "pro" RGB monitors, and my little PVM-1271Q looked and performed the best.

[wingzrow]

The 20M2MDU has an incredible picture and it's in the running for best retro display device, but I would also consider an NEC XM 29 or a Mitsubishi AR series to be very, very close or better in certain ways.

One cool thing you can do if you are just looking to test what it looks like or want a taste of the same sort of razor sharp, pixel perfect performance of the PVM series is you can use a CRT PC monitor like this one.

http://www.transvideo.com/images/for_sale/559.jpg

Take note that this monitor is a trinitron too, but it doesn't really have to be. All it needs is to be able to support 240p at 120hz. By doubling the refresh rate of standard 240p/60hz you can enable true 240p RGB on pretty much any old CRT monitor made in the last 15 years. The only visible difference from a regular 60hz 240p mode is that there will be less flicker to the screen, and that's usually a -good- thing. Too bad this is pretty much only possible with emulators.

I can't seem to find anyone online selling a NEC XM29, but the size they made them in is really appealing. How long did they make these?

[Jack_Burton_BYOAC]

I can't seem to find anyone online selling a NEC XM29, but the size they made them in is really appealing. How long did they make these?

I don't know how many years they were made. There are far fewer in the wild than the PVM series. Your best bet to grab one is to check the buy/sell/trade section of a few different websites and ebay.

I go to

forum.arcadecontrols.com
shmups.system11.org

[Scotterpop]

I've got the PVM-1954Q, an older model, but the picture quality is freaking outstanding. Can't recommend these monitors enough. Truly the best tube-based gaming monitor I've ever used. And the picture fine-tuning options are absolutely ridiculous. "Get you one!"

[Tron 2.0]

The monitor is a 20 inch monitor, but I think the screen size is 19 inches viewable. It has composite, S-video, RGB and component (the component is non-progressive scan). It also has a single speaker, but I just send the audio to my stereo. One thing I must mention, is that the connections on the back are BNC type connectors, so you have to go to Radio Shack to get the little BNC adpaters to use regular RCA type cables with it. I'm pretty sure all the professional Sony monitors are like that.



A used Sony PVM-20M2MDU can go for as cheap as 50 bucks, to as high as one grand. Just depends on where you're getting it from. The most I would pay is about $200, and that would only be for a brand new one. I paid $100 for the one I got. I did an Ebay search and turned this up:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/290784906330

That guy is selling supposedly brand new ones for $150 plus shipping. If these are truly brand new, then it is an absolute steal. It's extremely rare to see a brand new Sony PVM being sold for less than $500 or more. It says in the auction that the guy has 10 of them. Maybe he has a warehouse that just had a ton of them sitting in there, and they are just liquidating them or something.

Thanks my old commodore 64 1702 has been flaky as of late and i all ways thought,i need to replace it one day.

[wingzrow]

Well, I just bit the bullet and bought one ($237 yikes), but I've seen nothing but praise about these, not only here, but on every other forum I looked it up on, and I've never had a RGB or VGA monitor for old games before, so this should keep me busy for awhile. My wii has emulators hacked onto it, and they supposedly display at their original resolutions, so that's what I'm hoping will hold me over until I start modding my older systems for RGB.

What do I need to prepare for this new monitor before it arrives?

You said it has BNC plugs in the back so I can't use component right out of the box right?

Also need some speaker recommendations, since I don't have an amp, OR a speaker to use with it yet.

[Jack_Burton_BYOAC]

Which specific model did you buy?

You'll want to visit radio shack and purchase BNC to phono adapters for your component cable. They look like this:

http://www.cable-trader.co.uk/images/items/BNC%20plug%20to%20phono%20socket%20adapter.jpg

If you bought the XM29 you probably won't need external speakers. The built-in ones are very good.

I don't want to steal WCP's thunder, but I think I have a pretty good monitor too. It's a Mitsubishi AM-3501R. It's quite old, and quite large.

The tube is an odd size, 35" with 33.5" viewable.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii18/megaultrasuper/3n53k83m05T55U05R2a44ca223667590a1ae5.jpg

There are quite a few connections.
http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/7822/3413e6420.jpg
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/7199/4349i7620.jpg

R-type Leo
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii18/megaultrasuper/SSPX0017.jpg
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii18/megaultrasuper/SSPX0016.jpg

Super Street Fighter II Turbo
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii18/megaultrasuper/SSPX0008.jpg

Street Fighter III: Third Strike
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii18/megaultrasuper/SSPX0007.jpg

This monitor is not quite as razor sharp as the PVM series. However, that is not necessarily a bad thing. You only want the display to be clear enough to display all the detail of the game. If the dot pitch of a monitor is too fine then the scanlines of the display will be too visible. You actually want a rather coarse pitch when it comes to 240p gaming. With a course pitch you get a fuller, brighter image. IMO the older the 15khz RGB capable monitor you can find, the better.

[wingzrow]

The exact one linked earlier from eBay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/290784906330

[Jack_Burton_BYOAC]

The exact one linked earlier from eBay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/290784906330

Very, very nice. As far as preparing goes, I would recommend you download some very impressive looking shmup games. These generally have the most wow-factor graphics, and being arcade games they are designed to be played on a good RGB monitor. Games like:

Pro Gear
Blazing Star
Pulstar

or run and gun games like Metal Slug.

Look into programs that can allow your computer to output 240p to this monitor. Start with Soft 15khz.

[wingzrow]

I'm assuming you mean through VGA straight from my Graphics card on my PC correct?

And yeah, i'm going to be looking into as much as possible, my first priority is some decent speakers though. That model I bought only has one, and while mono is fine for nes, everything else NEEDS stereo.

[wingzrow]

MY monitor comes in today. How many PNC to Phono adapters should I huy from Radio shack? Do I just need 3 for the video, or do I need 5 for the video and audio?

[WCP]

MY monitor comes in today. How many PNC to Phono adapters should I huy from Radio shack? Do I just need 3 for the video, or do I need 5 for the video and audio?


Ok, so, if you got the actual one that I got, what you really need to do is contact this guy on Atari Age. He makes a Euro Scart to PVM adapter. Unfortunately, he's back ordered, and has tons of customers waiting for cables. So, to get on the waiting list, you have to contact him and paypal him the $26 (I think that's what he's charging) for the cable. I think he said that he's backed up about a month to a month and a half. Still, if I was in your situation, I would order his adapter immediately, and just wait the two months or however long it takes to get that adapter.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-xP5eALmFj6A/T4EbhMh-ODI/AAAAAAAABd8/TRG8ERRQNVA/s720/IMG_0386%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG


That is the adapter that you need. That adapter will connect right up to either one of the two RGB/component inputs. Then you just plug your Euro Scart RGB cables right into that adapter, and you're done. Notice the red and white RCA plugs for the audio ? That's kept seperate, because using a single mono speaker would be a crime. If you need a super small, 2 channel amp for the stereo sound, I would recommend a Dayton DTA-1.

Here is a link to that guys thread on Atari Age:

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/200300-fs-female-scart-to-bnc-adapter-cables/


Contact him, get his paypal info, and paypal him the $26 and get on the waiting list. Then, while you're waiting, go ahead and head over to Ebay and start shopping for Euro Scart cables. Here is an example of what I'm talking about:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/US-seller-Sega-Genesis-1-Master-System-1-Megadrive-RGB-SCART-cable-lead-cord-/160904423857?pt=Video_Games_Accessories&hash=item2576a6a9b1


That is a Genesis 1 Euro RGB scart cable for about $16.50 shipped. Here is a SNES one:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Super-Nintendo-stereo-RGB-SCART-lead-with-RCA-out-for-US-model-SNES-/160843923354?pt=Video_Games_Accessories&hash=item25730b7f9a




Basically, you can find ones for Playstation, Saturn, SNES, Genesis etc, etc. They should cost anywhere from about $12 to $25 each. Just make sure you don't get the Japanese Scart cables. The pinout is different. People that have XRGB's are looking for the Japanese ones if they don't have a JPN to Euro adapter, so sometimes you'll see the Japanese ones on Ebay.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, in the meanwhile, you can use S-Video cables for your older consoles, and the just plug one of the audio cables from your consoles into the single "audio in" jack, for the mono sound from the one speaker. It will cover you in a pinch, until you get a little amp and some speakers. Also, go to Radio Shack, and buy 3 of those little BNC adapter things, and you can play PS2 and GameCube in component on the montior. Put one of those little adapters on the component inputs for red, green, blue. Then just use the single audio input plug for mono sound (if you need to).

When I first got my monitor, before I borrowed some cables from my bud, I hooked up my GameCube to the monitor via Component. It won't do progresive scan, but the component signal is still pretty good.

[wingzrow]

Well I plugged in my three adapters and have tried both my wii AND my ps2's component cables, and the monitor gives me a green or red vertical hold.

Am I doing something wrong?

http://i45.tinypic.com/noy2oy.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/28sgpk.jpg

[Leo_A]

I would think you need RGB cables.

Component cables aren't RGB cables with differently shaped plugs even if the colors would suggest they're the same.

[staxx]

You are using component cables. This is not RGB.

[wingzrow]

Fixed it, there was a syncing problem. I went into the menu and there was an option that fixed it.

Now I have a new problem.

The picture, while absolutely amazing, is getting cut off on the bottom.

Here's what is looks like normally. And the second picture is what it looks like when I press the underscan button. Notice how I'm missing a big chunk of the bottom? How do I manually adjust the picture size?

EDIT: Fixed it. You press menu, then degause and enter at the same time, that lets you change the vertical and horizontal screen size.

http://i49.tinypic.com/rrppue.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/28ssy03.jpg

[WCP]

EDIT: Fixed it. You press menu, then degause and enter at the same time, that lets you change the vertical and horizontal screen size.



Cool, that must be how you get into the service mode. I went ahead and tried it on mine, and went into the service mode, but whenever I adjusted something, I didn't notice anything changing at all. I hope I didn't screw anything up. I just want to shift my screen about 3/4ths of an inch to the left, but can't figure out how to do it...

[wingzrow]

You can lock your settings in with degause and enter at the same time again, but everything resets when the set turns off.

Here's two new questions.

I noticed my wii's SEGA genesis emulator has an option for bi-linear filtering, but the nes and snes ones don't, can someone explain to me what this is, and if it's important?

Also, what's the difference between RGB and Component? Will I really notice a large difference between running snes games through component on my wii, and running an actual SNES through the scart adapter to get RGB?

[Jack_Burton_BYOAC]

If you plan on doing anything with the service mode I recommend going through and writing down every single value for every single adjustment beforehand, and then putting it in a safe place.

The AVS forums are good place to start with learning about using the service modes on these monitors. They have a list of service code definitions for the consumer trinitrons, and if memory serves me right most of them are the same on the PVM's.

Bilinear filtering is a type of software filter that emulators use to reduce pixelization when scaling the image up to a higher res display. You don't need it for your monitor since you can display the native resolution. Turn it off.

The difference between RGB 240p from a real SNES and from a modded Wii outputting 240p component video will be pretty small. One might be slightly brighter/more contrastier than the other just because of small differences in the video signals. The RGB should be just a little bit sharper, with noticeably more solid coloring.

One thing you WILL notice is that SNES games will scroll silky smooth through the real SNES. No emulator in the world can really do that

[wingzrow]

I'm still surprised that when my adapter comes in, that I can just buy euro scart cables and get RGB for my systems without moding them internally at all. That blows my mind. Seems like it would be much cheper in the long run too.

[kedawa]

Every VC game I've tried has awful grainy filtering and weird flickering pixels.
Use the real thing if you've got it.

[WCP]

Also, what's the difference between RGB and Component?
RGB is full bandwidth. You get the full enchilada.

Component cables have Y, Pb, Pr. Y carries full horizontal resolution while the Pb and Pr carry half. With RGB, all three lines must carry full resolution.

Y,Pb,Pr was invented for use in place of RGB to save on total bandwidth requirements




Will I really notice a large difference between running snes games through component on my wii, and running an actual SNES through the scart adapter to get RGB?

Ok, look, if you bought one of these Sony monitors, then you want to use it for it's full value. Running emulators on it, totally defeats the purpose. You want the "natural", "true" analog RGB signal to be fed to the monitor. Running an emulator on an RGB monitor is a total waste of time. You might as well should have bought a 4:3 TV that has a vga input, so you can connect your PC to it.

The Sony monitor that you own, is capable of displaying the natural analog RGB signal in all it's 15.75 Khz glory. The Playstation 2 is capable of outputting an analog RGB signal, as well as a component signal. As good as component is on the PS2, the RGB signal is slightly better, because it's full bandwidth. Nothing is being sacrificed. Some might say that the differences are so small that 99 percent of the population wouldn't notice it. Whether that is true or not, remains to be seen, but regardless, if you're an owner of a nice Sony PVM, use the thing to it's fullest extent. The only way you can do this, is with actual RGB cables for your actual systems.


I'm still surprised that when my adapter comes in, that I can just buy euro scart cables and get RGB for my systems without moding them internally at all. That blows my mind. Seems like it would be much cheper in the long run too.

Well, there are a few gaming systems that do need to be modded. TurboGrafx-16's are typcially internally modded for RGB. There is a way to get RGB from a turbo without internally modding it, but the RGB signal must be amplified, and it's a pretty complicated mod. The Nintendo 64 must be internally modded for RGB. (also, it will only work on certain N64 motherboards). The NES must be internally modded for RGB, and it requires a rare ppu chip to do it. The Panasonic 3DO must be internally modded for RGB. The 3DO rgb mod is also extremely complicated and I think it requires some special chips to work. Some guy on Ebay occasionally sells RGB modded 3DO's for like $250. The Philips CD-I can also be internally modded for RGB.

[wingzrow]

Every VC game I've tried has awful grainy filtering and weird flickering pixels.
Use the real thing if you've got it.

Who said I was using the virtual console? I'm using snesx9, gensplus, and other much better emulators on my Wii.

but yeah, i'm going for full RGB as soon as I can, this whole component thing is just to hold me over until my adapter comes in. Maybe I should hit up APE for a RGB mod on my N64 in the mean time, since I need to have that internally modded for RGB anyway.

[RARusk]

GameCube RGB at this point requires the rare hard to find Component Cables. Those cables have the chip inside that creates Component Video but can be modified for RGB. Lucky for me I have two of them (one RGB modified, the other un-modded). I know the newer GameCubes have just the regular A/V Port but I don't have any information on those motherboards. I know that the PAL units can output RGB to the A/V Port but I don't know if the NTSC boards are similar to the PAL ones. Info on the GC motherboards is virtually non-existant as far as I was able to find on Google.

The PS1 and PS2 have tons of service manuals and schematics online on which to dissect those consoles. To date I haven't found anything like that for ANY Nintendo console, not even for the original NES.

As for RGB modding the N64, I found that it is best to go with a mod that taps into the raw digital video signals and creates RGB from them as this will make it compatible with all board revisions instead of trying to locate one where you can tap into the weak RGB signals off the board. There's not too many of those older RGB boards floating around. Oh, and there's another type of N64 RGB mod board that was revealed recently where it not only creates the RGB signal but upscans them to VGA! Me want.

[Jack_Burton_BYOAC]

RGB is full bandwidth. You get the full enchilada.
Ok, look, if you bought one of these Sony monitors, then you want to use it for it's full value. Running emulators on it, totally defeats the purpose. You want the "natural", "true" analog RGB signal to be fed to the monitor. Running an emulator on an RGB monitor is a total waste of time. You might as well should have bought a 4:3 TV that has a vga input, so you can connect your PC to it.


I don't agree with this. It's very easy to get a PC to output a "true" analog RGB signal in the native resolution and timings of pretty much any game console. The only noticable differences you will see are possibly some extremely light amounts of latency in the inputs, and a bit of screen stuttering that plagues all emulators.

And since as you have stated that it is rather difficult to get RGB out of certain systems this seems like a perfectly good, and probably more economical solution.

[wingzrow]

I got myself a female to two female RCA adapter at radiooshack today. The good news is it works, I get stereo just fine by plugging in the audio straight from my wii's component cables. The bad news is these logitec speakers are junk! I've never tested them up till now, but they give me a sort of echo, and some noticeable random static. I don't think it's the adapter, since these are pretty cheap speakers.

So what speakers do you guys recommend I buy?

I doubt it, but does walmart carry anything that's actually decent?

I wouldn't mind buying some PC speakers from there, at least to hold me over until I find something better. Hell, anything would be better than the speakers I have now, even the built in mono speaker from the PVM it's self sounds better.

EDIT: Here's a picture of the speakers 'm stuck with. I don't think you could find cheaper speakers if you tried. They are awfully loud though.

http://i46.tinypic.com/2j6txk.jpg

[StealthLurker]

Congrats and looks great. I've got about 5-6 RGB capable CRTs. Three of them are Sony PVMs. Once you go RGB CRT it's hard to go back to anything else.

One day I'd like to be able to pick up an NEC XM29 or two or three lol, however those never seem to show up in my neck of the woods.

.

[Jack_Burton_BYOAC]

I've got a pair of Altec Lansing speakers like these with the subwoofer and I've always thought they sounded very nice.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Altec-Lansing-ACS-90-Computer-Speakers-with-Subwoofer-/330811709996?pt=US_Computer_Speakers&hash=item4d05ea1a2c

[Gameguy]

I got myself a female to two female RCA adapter at radiooshack today. The good news is it works, I get stereo just fine by plugging in the audio straight from my wii's component cables. The bad news is these logitec speakers are junk! I've never tested them up till now, but they give me a sort of echo, and some noticeable random static. I don't think it's the adapter, since these are pretty cheap speakers.

So what speakers do you guys recommend I buy?

I doubt it, but does walmart carry anything that's actually decent?

I wouldn't mind buying some PC speakers from there, at least to hold me over until I find something better. Hell, anything would be better than the speakers I have now, even the built in mono speaker from the PVM it's self sounds better.

EDIT: Here's a picture of the speakers 'm stuck with. I don't think you could find cheaper speakers if you tried. They are awfully loud though.

http://i46.tinypic.com/2j6txk.jpg
Test those speakers with a portable CD or MP3 player first. Maybe it's just me but I don't think you'll get great sound just hooking up speakers directly to your console's audio cables. Usually you need to hook those up to a type of amplifier or receiver to get good sound, even TVs amplify the sound.

Logitech speakers are pretty cheap but they're not usually pure junk either, I've heard dollar store/generic brand speakers and those are bad though still usuable.

[WCP]

Actually, the built-in mono speaker is actually pretty damn good. I would use that, until I could afford a Dayton DTA-1 and a couple of nice satellite speakers. It's like I told my bud who has a Sony BVM-20F1U.... "You've got the best picture quality on planet earth, and you're using some cheapo computer speakers?". You can get a Dayton DTA-1 for about $35 or $40 on Ebay. It will drive two speakers nicely. As for the speakers, I would look to craigslist first, and Ebay second. All you need are two small, high quality monitor type speakers. Look for names like Kef, Energy, Monitor Audio, B & W, Paradigm, Definitive Technology, NHT (from nhthifi.com), etc, etc. Buying used is a smart way to go, cause you can usually get them for 60 percent less than new. If speakers are well taken care of, they can last for 20 or 30 years no problem. Speakers that are 5 or 10 years old can work just as good, if not better than some of the newest speakers. I'd much rather have a Kef or Energy speaker from 1998, than 99 percent of the stuff you can buy brand new at a Best Buy or Target or Wal-Mart.

[wingzrow]

I figured as much. Even if it is the speakers, I need an amp anyway.

I just ordered a Dayton DTA-1, since it was recommended and it was a T-class amp.

When it comes in I'm thinking of buying these speakers from the local pawn shop. Provided they aren't blown, does this look like a good setup?

http://i49.tinypic.com/de9hz.jpg

[Oldskool]

I knew I shouldn't have passed on those 2 Sony's at Savers for $20 each. Maybe next time.

[WCP]

I figured as much. Even if it is the speakers, I need an amp anyway.

I just ordered a Dayton DTA-1, since it was recommended and it was a T-class amp.

When it comes in I'm thinking of buying these speakers from the local pawn shop. Provided they aren't blown, does this look like a good setup?

http://i49.tinypic.com/de9hz.jpg


Just so you know, the Dayton DTA-1 isn't the most amazing amp in the world or anything, but it's extremely small. It's about as simple as a two channel amp can get. Plug two speakers into it, and turn the volume knob. That's pretty much it. Still, it will give decent power to two nice satellite or smaller bookshelf speakers. That's all you really need for 90 percent of retrogaming anyways. As for those two Sony speakers, it's hard to say what kind of sound quality you can get. For that price though, they could probably hold you over in the meanwhile...

If you have any local action on craigslist at all, definitely check there for speakers. I've found many good deals on speakers on craigslist. Ebay is a bit harder, because there are enough people worldwide that know what quality speakers are, and they will end up bidding on the good speakers that hit Ebay. Still I scored some Energy C8 towers on Ebay for a song once, so it's always worth keeping an eye on it. I'm always checking Ebay for a pair of Monitor Audio R90's at a decent price. ($250 or less shipped for the rose mahogany ones)

[RP2A03]

When it comes in I'm thinking of buying these speakers from the local pawn shop. Provided they aren't blown, does this look like a good setup?

http://i49.tinypic.com/de9hz.jpg


At the very least they will be better than what you currently have and for fifteen bucks they are worth the gamble. However, those speakers are unlikely to be magnetically shielded and will need to be kept at least two feet from the monitor unless the monitor itself is shielded.

[Jack_Burton_BYOAC]

What would be the equivalent Sony product that goes with this monitor audiowise?

What's the audio equivalent of a PVM?

[WCP]

What would be the equivalent Sony product that goes with this monitor audiowise?

What's the audio equivalent of a PVM?

Why would you need a Sony product ? Buy something from somebody that specializes in what you're looking for. Sure, Sony makes speakers, but that isn't what they are known for.

It's the same thing when people buy subwoofers. 90 percent of people will get the subwoofer that "goes with" whatever speakers they bought. You're much better off buying a subwoofer from a company that specializes in subwoofers.

[Jack_Burton_BYOAC]

Well, I was thinking that since the PVM is a professional quality monitor that there might have been some equipment that Sony made that was also up to the same standard. Something that might fit it from a cosmetic point of view and also provide great sound.

My second question is the more important one. In the world of audio setups, what's the equivalent of a PVM? As in:

-old professional level tech that's easy for hobbyists to get now.
-handles a variety of inputs and signals, including one that is considered the "best"
-extremely high performance

[WCP]

Well, I was thinking that since the PVM is a professional quality monitor that there might have been some equipment that Sony made that was also up to the same standard. Something that might fit it from a cosmetic point of view and also provide great sound.

My second question is the more important one. In the world of audio setups, what's the equivalent of a PVM? As in:

-old professional level tech that's easy for hobbyists to get now.
-handles a variety of inputs and signals, including one that is considered the "best"
-extremely high performance



1. There actually is some specific speakers that you can can get for the Sony PVM-2530's. There are specific mounting brackets that you get for it, and then they have the specific speakers that go along with it. The thing is, the 2530 isn't a very good PVM to go after. I've owned 3 different versions of that monitor, and all 3 had issues at one point or another. You're much better off with the 20 inch PVM's for picture quality.

2. As for audio, if your only concern is having some audio for retrogaming, then you'd be perfectly fine with a good 2 channel amp, two speakers and a subwoofer. Certainly, if you play a lot of PS1 stuff, and maybe some Saturn stuff, then you actually want to have some surround speakers as well. Pre PS1 / Saturn, you didn't really need to have any surround speakers. I know that Super Turrican on SNES featured Dolby Surround, but there aren't many other 16-bit games that did.

If you want your audio system to cover all the media you enjoy, then it's a whole new ballgame.


An older receiver that I can really recommend for doing everything, and doing it well, with HDMI switching and audio over HDMI, is the Marantz SR7001. It's not compatible with 3D at all, so if you ever want to go 3D, then you'd have to wire stuff up seperately. For example, I have a PS3 that I've played 3D games on, and if I use that with this receiver, then I have to use optical for the audio, instead of HDMI audio. So, I don't get any lossless sound from the PS3. However, other than that, the receiver is top notch. It's a bit of overkill for most retrogames. At least the non CD based ones.

You can get a SR7001 via Ebay for anywhere from $200 to $400 depending on it's condition. I've seen mint ones go for around $250.


If you specifically want to go 2 channel, there is a Panasonic digital receiver, the SA-XR55 that is especially good for that. Only problem is, they don't sell them anymore. It actually is a 7.1 receiver, but you could use it for 2 channel and get more watts just for the 2 channels.

[Jack_Burton_BYOAC]

Thanks for the info. I've really been getting into the Turbo CD recently and I miss the speakers on my old setup (it's in storage right now). I'm making due with a set of decent pc speakers, but I miss the power of my big monitor's built-in speakers plus an altec lansing subwoofer I had connected. I had a Sony XBR960 for my modern gaming. That tv has some really nice built in audio too.

Funnily, I've have 2 2530's and one 2030. All of them had power supply issues. Sucks too because I preferred the image on them to the newer models. I had one 20M2U that had a very bowed in image. Even after going through service mode and trying different settings it couldn't be fixed. It was likely a bad cap somewhere. I gave it away to a friend who used it as an arcade monitor.

The 1271Q and 1390's I've owned worked perfectly. So does the XM29.

It seems like the larger these monitors are the less reliable they are. I had two 37" Megaview XC37 series that had focus issues. Or perhaps they're so heavy that they get roughhandled during their lifetime when they moved around. Especially by the neanderthals at the University Surplus auction near here. :( I feel like I got really lucky with my AM-3501R since it works flawlessly.

[WCP]

Thanks for the info. I've really been getting into the Turbo CD recently and I miss the speakers on my old setup (it's in storage right now). I'm making due with a set of decent pc speakers, but I miss the power of my big monitor's built-in speakers plus an altec lansing subwoofer I had connected. I had a Sony XBR960 for my modern gaming. That tv has some really nice built in audio too.

Funnily, I've have 2 2530's and one 2030. All of them had power supply issues. Sucks too because I preferred the image on them to the newer models. I had one 20M2U that had a very bowed in image. Even after going through service mode and trying different settings it couldn't be fixed. It was likely a bad cap somewhere. I gave it away to a friend who used it as an arcade monitor.

The 1271Q and 1390's I've owned worked perfectly. So does the XM29.

It seems like the larger these monitors are the less reliable they are. I had two 37" Megaview XC37 series that had focus issues. Or perhaps they're so heavy that they get roughhandled during their lifetime when they moved around. Especially by the neanderthals at the University Surplus auction near here. :( I feel like I got really lucky with my AM-3501R since it works flawlessly.


Yeah, the thing about these Sony monitors, when they are working well, and don't have any geometry issues, or other problems, then everything is awesome. The problem is, these things are just going to continue to get older and older, and have more and more hours on them. Thats why I think it's crucial to try to either find one that is still brand new, or has extremely low hours on it. Try to find ones that were made around 2004, 2005, 2003, etc, etc. The Ebay auction where the guy is selling brand new 20M2U's for $150 each is hard to beat. Those monitors were manufactured in September 2003. Supposedly they are brand new. The thinking would be that they would last a very long time, because they haven't been used and abused already.

I'm almost tempted to buy another one of these, and just put it in storage until I might need it one day, lol...

[TonyTheTiger]

What does a NEC XM29/XP29 Plus go for these days? I'd rather not waste time thinking about it if it's not a realistic acquisition.

[Jack_Burton_BYOAC]

One that is in good shape and has been tested can sell for 300 dollars easily. Several have come up on the BYOAC trading forum for around $150.

They can be found in the wild for a song. As low as 50 bucks is pretty common. You just have to be diligent, and willing to drive some long distances to pick one up. They're not really super rare, and when you do find them you often will find them along with a batch of other similar stuff.

I got my XM29 from a university auction for free. They recycle the stuff that doesn't sell, but the guys who do all the cleanup work hate moving those big monitors around. I showed up late in the day to see what I could get, and lo and behold there were two of them just sitting there ready for the scrap heap. The cleanup crew were grateful for me and a friend to get them out of the way. There were also 2 pallets with 37" Magnavox CRT TV's with component/s-video that probably worked fine that I could have taken home if I had the room.

Now, keep in mind my XM29 has MASSIVE burn-in from some kind of science equipment that was hooked up to it. I've read similar reports from many other owners. The other one went to a friend and it was even worse. However, they are still both fantastic monitors and I would take a burned-in XM over 99.9% of everything else out there.

[WCP]

Now, keep in mind my XM29 has MASSIVE burn-in from some kind of science equipment that was hooked up to it. I've read similar reports from many other owners. The other one went to a friend and it was even worse. However, they are still both fantastic monitors and I would take a burned-in XM over 99.9% of everything else out there.

My friends BVM-20F1U will put any other monitor to shame. It well should, they originally retailed for about 12 grand.

[TonyTheTiger]

That's a shockingly good price. I was expecting something like $800. The only reason I zeroed in on the NEC is that most of the time when people talk about "great" monitors they invariably bring up Commodore ones or some other tiny thing. Yeah, that's fine and all but I'm not sure I'd consider it an all around upgrade. Plus I'm not nearly dedicated enough to bother with rigging up a big arcade monitor or something. It seems like the XM29 is the best example of the quality people rave about while also being the size of a real TV.

[Jack_Burton_BYOAC]

My friends BVM-20F1U will put any other monitor to shame. It well should, they originally retailed for about 12 grand.

That's the 00.1% :)

Although I will say that if you put a brand new XM29 vs a brand new BVM and played only 240p classic games on them you'd very quickly run into a situation of diminishing returns when looking for ways that the BVM is superior imagewise. They would both be considered "perfect" by most people, even discerning gamers familiar with the ins and outs of RGB gaming.

However, the XM29 is larger, and it will sync to 480p and 720p signals. Those bonuses give it a huge advantage when coming down to a practical choice.

[TonyTheTiger]

So does that mean the BVM is the best CRT monitor ever? ;)

20 inches isn't bad at all. Are there larger ones?

[Jack_Burton_BYOAC]

So does that mean the BVM is the best CRT monitor ever? ;)

20 inches isn't bad at all. Are there larger ones?

Outside of some truly insanely hard to find stuff, yes!

I believe 20" is the largest you can find in the 4:3 ratio.

[TonyTheTiger]

Cool, cool. Other than the size difference, how does the BVM differ from the XM29? That larger screen is mighty attractive so to opt for a smaller screen it'd have to be noticeable difference to make it worth it, I think, given the prices seem to be comparable.

[Jack_Burton_BYOAC]

The BVM is brighter and more colorful. If it is working properly it can be calibrated to exactly how the game is supposed to be displayed.* These things were originally used in mastering video for broadcast. If you've ever seen on Saturday Night Live or any other show that cuts to the broadcast booths, that's what the producers are looking at.

*assuming the poor devs of the 80s and 90s ever had access to a display this good!

[WCP]

You have to see both of them in person. I will admit that I've never seen the XM29 in person. I would love to see one in person. Still, having said that... I find it hard to believe that it would actually look better than a BVM-20F1U. Now, it's certainly possible that I'm totally incorrect on this, and the XM29 smokes the F1U, but if that's truly the case, then I would be shocked.

Anything's possible. I'll have to keep my eye out for a XM29 locally.

[wingzrow]

My amp came in, it's set up, and everything works perfect. Right now I'm still waiting on that adapter to use Euro scart cables.

Before I go and order the cables, how can I tell the difference between a Euro scart cable and a japanese one?

Also, will I notice much of a difference between RGB and Component?

EDIT: Would this cable work for the adapter and the Wii?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-8m-RGB-Scart-Video-HDTV-EDTV-AV-Cable-For-Nintendo-Wii-New-/380370407792?pt=Video_Games_Accessories&hash=item588fd7d170

[WCP]

My amp came in, it's set up, and everything works perfect. Right now I'm still waiting on that adapter to use Euro scart cables.

Before I go and order the cables, how can I tell the difference between a Euro scart cable and a japanese one?

On Ebay, most of the Euro Scart cables come from the UK. Actually, it's pretty hard to find a JPN scart cable. They aren't very common. Just email the seller and ask them if the pinout is for Japan or Europe. The Japaneese ones are rare. It's the reason that most people with XRGB adapters have their adapters modified to accept the Euro scart, because it's so much more common.



Also, will I notice much of a difference between RGB and Component?

I thought we went over this already. RGB is the whole reason you paid the big bucks to get that monitor. You want TRUE rgb for all your systems. Just get the SNES and Genesis one, and then tell me it isn't the best thing you've ever seen.

[wingzrow]

Two more questions, these are regarding resolution.

If I want to play Playstation Games through RGB, should I play through the PS2 or the original Playstation?

I have this feeling the PS2 upscales Playstation games slightly. I tried Breath of fire III through component and it seems slightly "off", as in, the sprites don't seem like they're taking advantage of by the scanlines.

Same thing for 2D games on the Wii.

TLDR: What would be the best model of each 2D system to run through the PVM?

That adapter cannot come in soon enough.

[RARusk]

The PS2 does not have a dedicated sync line for RGB video. You have to extract the sync from either Composite Video or Luminance (S-Video) using a sync chip. The one that most people use is the LM1881 which is an easy to use chip. The only other option is to open up the console and get it off the motherboard but that is not recommended for newbies.

[kedawa]

PS2 syncs on green.

[wingzrow]

PS2 syncs on green.

I'm sorry but I'm new to the whole RGB scene. What does this mean exactly?

Also, I see they made Scart cables for the original playstation. Would buying a Playstation, or the smaller model PS1 they made later, be the best way to go?

The thought of overclocking a PS1 intrigues me (especially for some arcade shooters) but losing the ability to speed up the internal disc speed of PS1 games that the PS2 provides might not be an even trade off, even if it isn;t supported for all games.

EDIT: I should try my PS3 through component and see how that looks in comparison.

[kedawa]

It just means that the sync signal is encoded on the green colour wire, rather than having it's one wire.
Some monitors support SoG, but many don't, so you may need to seperate the sync signal using a special circuit.
You can also get that signal from composite or luminance, as RARusk already mentioned, and that's probably a better idea because you won't risk introducing interference into the green signal.

[hamburglar]

The PS2 does not have a dedicated sync line for RGB video. You have to extract the sync from either Composite Video or Luminance (S-Video) using a sync chip. The one that most people use is the LM1881 which is an easy to use chip. The only other option is to open up the console and get it off the motherboard but that is not recommended for newbies.

The monitor he has will take sync from composite video, I have the same monitor.



PS2 syncs on green.

Are you thinking about the PS2 Linux adapter?

I run my PS2 PS1 and PSONE off RGB I just connect composite video to the sync input on my Sony PVM-20M2MDU monitor...If the PS2 is in RGB mode it won't output sync on green.

[RARusk]

PS2 syncs on green.

Only in Progressive Scan (480p) mode, *NOT* in Interlaced (480i/15KHz) Mode. Only a handful of PS2 games have a Progressive Scan mode.

Some monitors support the ability of extracting sync by plugging the Composite Video/Luminance into the Composite Sync plug. If this particular Sony monitor has this feature then it will save you the work of making your own circuit.

If you choose to acquire sync from the motherboard then you will also have to disable sync-on-green. Even if you get the sync from the board you will still get the green screen when you enter Progressive Scan because it will still mix the sync in the green line. Thankfully, somebody recently found a way to disable it by tweaking SOGEN on the motherboards, something I've yet to try myself.

[kedawa]

Haha, you got me hamburglar. That's exactly what I was using the RGB connection for. I didn't do much more than set up it up and muck around with it a bit, but that Linux kit came with some great hardware. The VGA adapter that came with it is actually compatible with the DB15<->Component cable that came with my brothers TV, so I wound up using it as a component cable.

I had no idea the PS2 didn't use SoG for 480i.
Robble! Robble!

[WCP]

Just use a regular playstation for PS1 games in RGB.

[wingzrow]

Neo-Geo forums member "broken" just shipped my Euro Scart to BNC adapter today, so I can expect it to arrive in a few days.

Right now I have scart cords for my wii, dreamcast, andmy sega genesis, so that should be enough to hold me over for awhile until the other cords come in. Just the wii alone in RGB should hold me over with emulation.

I can't wait to test it out and take some pictures.

[broken]

Hi Guys!

broken here.

I am the same one at the Neo-Geo.com forums and AtariAge (username there is thgill) that sells these Scart to BNC cables.

While I have had a DP account for a while, I never thought to post here about my cables.

So I just started a thread in the marketplace for them in case anyone else is interested.

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?164885-FS-Female-Scart-to-BNC-adapter-cables-for-SONY-PVM-monitors-and-others&p=1938728#post1938728


If you guys have any questions about these cables, Sony PVM's or RGB in general, perhaps I can lend a hand.



Todd