Playstation 4 Finally Officially Announced For Holiday 2013

[The 1 2 P]

The next gen is about to jump into full swing courtesy of Sony Entertainment. And as expected it isn't using the former code name of Orbis. The controller doesn't look as bad as the early pics showed and I like the idea of the new share button. Lets discuss the rest of the new system.

[Tupin]

Really thought they would go with a screen on the controller.

Also, the specs haven't impressed me so far. A well-equipped PC can easily outperform it from what I've seen.

[Collector_Gaming]

So far not really impressed. I think i am more impressed by their conference setup then the console XD

[fluid_matrix]

Really thought they would go with a screen on the controller.

Also, the specs haven't impressed me so far. A well-equipped PC can easily outperform it from what I've seen.

Looks like that's where the Vita comes into play, literally.

[RyanMurf]

I don't like how they mentioned you can try out every game on the network so you know the game you buy is a game you'll love. Sounds like a feature to make new games only more appealing. ;(

[Greg2600]

Good grief this is boring.

[The 1 2 P]

So it looks like they are working on backwards compatibilty for PS1, PS2 and PS3 games but that it hasn't been finalized yet. So most likely not all systems will be BC at launch but theres still potential to get the rest done at a later date.

[Bojay1997]

So it looks like they are working on backwards compatibilty for PS1, PS2 and PS3 games but that it hasn't been finalized yet. So most likely not all systems will be BC at launch but theres still potential to get the rest done at a later date.

I don't think that's what was said at all. David Perry who is the CEO of Gakai (a streaming service now owned by Sony) said they are working on a solution to make PS1, PS2, PS3 and PS Mobile games available on a variety of platforms. Essentially, I think they are talking about moving to a game streaming model for older games. The PS4 will just be used as a streaming platform (i.e. a way to connect to the streaming server and output to your TV while allowing controller interface) for older games.

[Leo_A]

Any word on Team Ico's project being slated for the PS4?

[Collector_Gaming]

The drivers club game looks cool though i will admit

[GhostDog]

Watching the live stream now.

[The 1 2 P]

I don't think that's what was said at all. David Perry who is the CEO of Gakai (a streaming service now owned by Sony) said they are working on a solution to make PS1, PS2, PS3 and PS Mobile games available on a variety of platforms. Essentially, I think they are talking about moving to a game streaming model for older games. The PS4 will just be used as a streaming platform (i.e. a way to connect to the streaming server and output to your TV while allowing controller interface) for older games.

I understand the part about bringing them to a variety of systems/devices but he also stated that PS3 games wouldn't be native to the PS4 hardware and that because of the streaming capabilities of Gaikai they were afforded oppurtunities to bring PS3 games to the PS4 via backwards compatibility that way. But he never said it was guaranteed which is why I said it didn't seem to be finalized yet. But beyond their goal of bringing the entire Playstation library of games to multiple devices they have to be working on some sort of backwards compatibility solution for the PS4. It seems highly unlikey they would abandon that completely. But we probably won't get more solid details until sometime closer to launch.

[fluid_matrix]

Good grief this is boring.
Quit watching after about 40 minutes. I'll just read up on the highlights later.

[GhostDog]

Yeah, it is pretty boring most of the time. What I do is just listen to them talk and surf the net and later when they're about to show footage I tune in.

[JSoup]

Meh. Lost me at digital emulator for PS3 instead of just letting us use our damn disks. New infamous game isn't bad, though.

[Bojay1997]

I understand the part about bringing them to a variety of systems/devices but he also stated that PS3 games wouldn't be native to the PS4 hardware and that because of the streaming capabilities of Gaikai they were afforded oppurtunities to bring PS3 games to the PS4 via backwards compatibility that way. But he never said it was guaranteed which is why I said it didn't seem to be finalized yet. But beyond their goal of bringing the entire Playstation library of games to multiple devices they have to be working on some sort of backwards compatibility solution for the PS4. It seems highly unlikey they would abandon that completely. But we probably won't get more solid details until sometime closer to launch.

I think you're engaging in wishful thinking. Both the presentation today and the leaked info in sources like the Wall Street Journal made it pretty clear that the PS4 is not backward compatible and the only way to play PS3 games will be through some type of Gaikai driven streaming effort. There is a big difference between making the library available on multiple devices and backward compatibility.

[The 1 2 P]

I think you're engaging in wishful thinking.

Possibly. I like streamlining my systems hooked up to the tv.

[Kitsune Sniper]

So...

What's going to happen to everyone's PSOne Classics / PSN / PS3 games?

Are y'all boned if you move to the PS4?

[Collector_Gaming]

Well its all over.

Things that I took note of is a controller that is refined to keep you in tuned with social media (whether via facebook or other means).

Its going allow you to let the console go into sleep mode (much like your computer) so you can actually leave it running and not have to worry about it.

Its looking to push cloud services through the roof (I called that one) by bringing you a refined playstation store experience that supposedly is going to feature EVERYTHING they have to offer sales wise and allowing you to jump immediately into a game while it is downloading via Cloud.

Graphics are being pushed further to a almost completely realistic perspective.

How ever..... There is still no word on what kinda media it hopes to use (whether its going to have a disc drive or rely on its hard drive).

I fear though since they went through the specs hardware wise right down to the wire our fears of physical media becoming a complete thing of the past is absolutely true.

I can't wait to see what Microsoft has to offer after what was shown here

[RCM]

Now I remember why I don't like going to stuff like this in person. I thank Sony for putting me to sleep in the comfort of my own home.

[fluid_matrix]

So did they ever show the actual hardware besides the controller?

[Bojay1997]

So did they ever show the actual hardware besides the controller?

Nope.

[Rob2600]

I think you're engaging in wishful thinking. Both the presentation today and the leaked info in sources like the Wall Street Journal made it pretty clear that the PS4 is not backward compatible and the only way to play PS3 games will be through some type of Gaikai driven streaming effort. There is a big difference between making the library available on multiple devices and backward compatibility.

If what I read is true, the PS4 uses an AMD CPU based on a completely different architecture than the PS3's Cell CPU, making local backwards compatibility impossible.

If you want backwards compatibility with PS3 games, your two options are high speed internet streaming or keep your old PS3.

[Collector_Gaming]

So did they ever show the actual hardware besides the controller?

nope sadly. Which kinda made me go "well why did you even call for this conference then if you don't wanna show us the console?"

[heybtbm]

Not very exciting when they don't even reveal what the fricken thing looks like. I like the touchpad on the controller...screens on controllers are so ridiculous (sorry Wii U) yet touch controls are so useful. The graphics were surprisingly boring. My PC does that now. All in all, a mediocre debut IMO.

[Collector_Gaming]

The graphics were surprisingly boring. My PC does that now. All in all, a mediocre debut IMO.

Which is why I am gonna just keep on pc gaming this generation.

[Greg2600]

Seemed to spend a lot of time talking up "instant" aka streamed gaming. Not even downloading to your machine, straight "remote server gaming." This is the gaming I disagree with most, because once those servers shut down, the game is lost forever.

[kedawa]

Consoles have always been way behind computers when it comes to hardware.
I don't understand how anyone would expect this to be any different.

[scaleworm]

Seemed to spend a lot of time talking up "instant" aka streamed gaming. Not even downloading to your machine, straight "remote server gaming." This is the gaming I disagree with most, because once those servers shut down, the game is lost forever.

Oh well, greed is greed after-all.
I spent some time chatting with a fellow (younger) gamer today, and I think the move is due to years of out right theft.

If a fox keeps stealing from a chicken coop, then farmer brown is either gonna' make her chicken coop that much more secure, or she will keep losing her chickens.
The coop(s) are a gettin' really high tech now.... boys and girls. No more lost chickens.
Plus when the chickens get old they get killed off to make room for new ones...

(btw this is an analogy regarding B.C., and dead or missing future games/servers....).

[scaleworm]

Consoles have always been way behind computers when it comes to hardware.
I don't understand how anyone would expect this to be any different.

Fully agreed.

[Press_Start]

I fear though since they went through the specs hardware wise right down to the wire our fears of physical media becoming a complete thing of the past is absolutely true.


Probably. But it's too soon for its time, imo. My 8 gig WiiU update took 1 hour to d/l in the dead of night. How long do you think a 50 gig COD game d/l by tens of millions of gamers at the same time would take....hours, days, maybe a week? No matter how you slice it such a strain would be a heavy burden on current data networks even with PS4's new "partial play" feature. I think it's one of those technological step you can't force into it without the rest of the world catching up.

[The 1 2 P]

I missed the last 10-15 minutes because Arrow came on. They were just starting to talk about Bungie and Destiny. Did I miss anything else important?

[kedawa]

Probably. But it's too soon for its time, imo. My 8 gig WiiU update took 1 hour to d/l in the dead of night. How long do you think a 50 gig COD game d/l by tens of millions of gamers at the same time would take....hours, days, maybe a week? No matter how you slice it such a strain would be a heavy burden on current data networks even with PS4's new "partial play" feature. I think it's one of those technological step you can't force into it without the rest of the world catching up.

PC games faced the same issue, but the solution was pretty simple; allow people to pre-order and pre-download the game well ahead of the launch so that come release day, the data is already on the system.

[Orion Pimpdaddy]

Seemed to spend a lot of time talking up "instant" aka streamed gaming. Not even downloading to your machine, straight "remote server gaming." This is the gaming I disagree with most, because once those servers shut down, the game is lost forever.

That's not what I took away by the "instant" theme. They meant that the time it takes to start up and play a game is getting reduced. For example, you can hibernate a game and then hit a button and resume playing the next day. Also, you can play downloadable games AS they are being downloaded (not streamed), and they seemed to suggest the startup sequence when turning on the system will be quick.

[scaleworm]

PC games faced the same issue, but the solution was pretty simple; allow people to pre-order and pre-download the game well ahead of the launch so that come release day, the data is already on the system.

Agreed. pre-ordered, preloaded directly frrm the manufacturer (as in MS and PS networks, as for Destiny).

Has anyone else noticed that gamestop is selling more and more non-game related stuff. Beats for God's sake are there now (btw THE world's worse overpriced music missing heavily counterfeited headphones)
I think that gamestop's days are n u m b e r e d........ dum dum da dum....

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Can't think of anything that they showed that I didn't like.

Super developer friendly system with the support of all of the major studios, refinement of social features (friend list, multiplayer experience), refinement/evolution of existing controller and move tech, integration with 3rd party hardware like tablets and PCs, game streaming tech, expanded functionality for Vita ... I can't think of anything else that I was hoping for/dreaming of.

Other than those pining the loss of physical backwards compatibility (which was always going to happen if they were going to move away from Cell processors for the sake of making a more developer friendly system) or those who were desperate to see what the box itself looked like I'm not sure what all the unimpressed were hoping for beyond what was shown.

Is there anybody who was unimpressed that can give us some specific detail on what you were hoping for that they didn't deliver on?

[Greg2600]

Oh well, greed is greed after-all.
I spent some time chatting with a fellow (younger) gamer today, and I think the move is due to years of out right theft.

What theft? There's no theft of current gen console games.

[scaleworm]

What theft? There's no theft of current gen console games.

i.e. "emulators" many, are my reference points.
Theft killed the DC.

[fluid_matrix]

nope sadly. Which kinda made me go "well why did you even call for this conference then if you don't wanna show us the console?"

why rush a huge announcement when you don't even show the "final" product?


i.e. "emulators" many, are my reference points.
Theft killed the DC.

I thought the PS2 killed the DC.

[Griking]

Other than the partnership with Blizzard and the coming of Diablo III I'm unimpressed

I wonder what Sony's answer would be if they were asked if they felt that the PS3 achieved expectations.

[Greg2600]

i.e. "emulators" many, are my reference points.
Theft killed the DC.

Dreamcast? That was over 10 years ago. You cannot emulate anything from the current generation, except maybe the Wii and not well.

[Tupin]

Dreamcast? That was over 10 years ago. You cannot emulate anything from the current generation, except maybe the Wii and not well.
You can run Wii games better in emulation than you can on the actual system.

[Collector_Gaming]

why rush a huge announcement when you don't even show the "final" product?



I thought the PS2 killed the DC.

Because if i told you about this amazingly great product and not even show what your working with for another year or whatever wouldnt you feel a lil cheated? I know i do. I mean i dont want the console now but still why bother telling me all these things now when i gotta wait so longti even see what it looks like let alone when your gonna release it.

Was i disappointed by what was actually shown to me? No. But i wasn't impressed. This upcoming generations consoles feel like just updated versions of current gen consoles. Just a few higher numbers in the tech field. Kinda like ps2 fat to ps2 slim.

[kedawa]

Can't think of anything that they showed that I didn't like.

Super developer friendly system with the support of all of the major studios, refinement of social features (friend list, multiplayer experience), refinement/evolution of existing controller and move tech, integration with 3rd party hardware like tablets and PCs, game streaming tech, expanded functionality for Vita ... I can't think of anything else that I was hoping for/dreaming of.

Other than those pining the loss of physical backwards compatibility (which was always going to happen if they were going to move away from Cell processors for the sake of making a more developer friendly system) or those who were desperate to see what the box itself looked like I'm not sure what all the unimpressed were hoping for beyond what was shown.

Is there anybody who was unimpressed that can give us some specific detail on what you were hoping for that they didn't deliver on?

I think the fact that most of the details were known before the conference just takes the impact out of it.
Personally, I was pretty impressed by the upgraded memory specs, but I don't want a console that has a user-facing camera as standard, which the PS4 very well might.

[danawhitaker]

I like the controller, I'm looking forward to Driveclub and whatever Final Fantasy is going to appear, among other things. I don't really care about all the streaming or downloading stuff because I'll still buy physical copies of games, but that's great for people who enjoy that.

Backwards compatibility would have been a nice bonus but I'm not surprised. They want to milk the cow and get people to repurchase all their PS1, PS2, and PS3 games instead of providing a method for them to play their existing discs. All you have to do to get around that is simply keep those consoles. That can be cumbersome, but I'd rather do that than pay for the same games repeatedly.

I'm looking forward to seeing what the console itself is actually going to look like. I was disappointed we didn't get to see that. Price point confirmation would have been nice as well, as well as information about what the differences will be between the two models. I'd assume it'll come down to storage space more than anything.

[kupomogli]

why rush a huge announcement when you don't even show the "final" product?

There's still future events. Price was held back, the exact date was held back, and what the console looks like was held back. While the look of the console wouldn't do anything, the release date and price could affect sales of the PS3 for those interested in that system as well as affect sales of people wondering whether they should go to the Wii U or wait until the PS4 price is announced first.

-

As for the event, I think it covered a lot we wanted to know. It didn't tell us any specific launch releases or launch window releases, but from the games I assume are going to be launch titles, the PS4 and Next Box have games I'm interested in already. Sony's wants to make the PS4 universal with mobile devices to stream content to wherever you're at, one of their goals being to allow the Vita to play all PS4 games through remote play. They didn't state that the Vita would, they stated it's their end goal. The PS4 is going to make recording game content and showing it to others easier than it's ever been, going so far as to allow friends to view any game you're playing so far as you allow them to.

Two things I didn't like about the event. The Media Molecule game looked stupid, and while I do like the idea that Sony only wants to shove products that I'm interested in down my throat, it'd be nice if they didn't shove any products at all down my throat. I don't want to open up the UI only to be spammed with constant advertisements of upcoming games. Although if it's like Steam, then go ahead and do so, because one click and I'm already at my friends list or library.

The thing I liked most is how Sony came right out with the basic specs of the console. We have no idea what the exact specs are, but we know it's got an eight core x86 processor with 8GB of DDR5. Unfortunately for die hard PC fans, console gaming has got extremely popular in the last few years and is what has been dictating graphical quality for awhile now.

PS4, PC, and Next Box fans have a few games to look forward to this holiday. Watch Dogs, Destiny, and the new Capcom game. The new Final Fantasy using Luminous ending might be Final Fantasy Versus 13, but who knows. One thing I'm impressed with is how noticeable the increase in graphical quality is for just launch games. Watch Dogs is an open world game yet graphically it looks much better than the best looking PS3 game. The game failed to impress me during its first showing because it felt like that entire demo at was predetermined with how it played out, while this showing it seemed to show off gameplay that was less predetermined, even though I'm sure it was as it's a demo to gain interest. I'm not really a fan of Killzone, but I think those were the best looking graphics in the presentation.

David Cage showed that graphics can look almost lifelike when running in real time, but said that they could have made it look even better than they did. For a system we know we'll be utilizing for a long time, it's very impressive for a console.

[Bojay1997]

Can't think of anything that they showed that I didn't like.

Super developer friendly system with the support of all of the major studios, refinement of social features (friend list, multiplayer experience), refinement/evolution of existing controller and move tech, integration with 3rd party hardware like tablets and PCs, game streaming tech, expanded functionality for Vita ... I can't think of anything else that I was hoping for/dreaming of.

Other than those pining the loss of physical backwards compatibility (which was always going to happen if they were going to move away from Cell processors for the sake of making a more developer friendly system) or those who were desperate to see what the box itself looked like I'm not sure what all the unimpressed were hoping for beyond what was shown.

Is there anybody who was unimpressed that can give us some specific detail on what you were hoping for that they didn't deliver on?

I would say that I was pretty unimpressed. There was nothing particularly innovative about the PS4. It's essentially a moderate spec PC trapped in Sony's infrastructure and ideas about what gamers really want. Personally, I could care less about sharing video of my game play or having friends watch my progress, let alone jump in and beat a particular area for me. I similarly have no interest in streaming games or having Sony decide what games I might download and filling my hard drive with those. The controller "upgrades" were pretty minor and the fact that they are still pursuing a Move strategy long after the peripheral failed and was supplanted by superior controller-less motion technologies like those in Kinect just seemed sad. I guess I'm not surprised, but what Sony showed is not going to catapult them to the top of the video game industry again and could very well be Sony's last console, especially if the next Xbox spec rumors are accurate and it's basically at a similar level but with a next generation Kinect included. In that scenario, I think the only possible outcome is another stalemate between Sony and Microsoft and with all of the other entertainment platforms out there including iOS, Android, Steambox, and who knows what else in the coming years, I can't see any way that either company survives to launch another money losing console venture.

On another note, I thought the conference itself was badly planned and executed. Two hours of people droning on about mediocre looking games and tech demos. Was anyone impressed in any way by Knack? It looked terrible IMHO.

[kedawa]

We have no idea what the exact specs are,

Yeah, no idea whatsoever...

CPU:

Orbis contains eight Jaguar cores at 1.6 Ghz, arranged as two “clusters”
Each cluster contains 4 cores and a shared 2MB L2 cache
256-bit SIMD operations, 128-bit SIMD ALU
SSE up to SSE4, as well as Advanced Vector Extensions (AVX)
One hardware thread per core
Decodes, executes and retires at up to two intructions/cycle
Out of order execution
Per-core dedicated L1-I and L1-D cache (32Kb each)
Two pipes per core yield 12,8 GFlops performance
102.4 GFlops for system



GPU:

GPU is based on AMD’s “R10XX” (Southern Islands) architecture
DirectX 11.1+ feature set
Liverpool is an enhanced version of the architecture
18 Compute Units (CUs)
Hardware balanced at 14 CUs
Shared 512 KB of read/write L2 cache
800 Mhz
1.843 Tflops, 922 GigaOps/s
Dual shader engines
18 texture units
8 Render backends



Memory:

8 GB unified system memory, 176 GB/s

[G-Boobie]

Also, everyone shut up about the used game thing.

http://m.ign.com/articles/2013/02/21/sony-exec-playstation-4-doesnt-block-used-games

[danawhitaker]

Also, everyone shut up about the used game thing.

http://m.ign.com/articles/2013/02/21/sony-exec-playstation-4-doesnt-block-used-games

Uhh...wrong thread? No one's been talking about "used games" in this thread. We've discussed the lack of backwards compatibility with PS1-PS3 games, which is not the same thing at all. Unless I missed a whole chunk of the thread when I was scanning through earlier.

[JSoup]

Uhh...wrong thread? No one's been talking about "used games" in this thread. We've discussed the lack of backwards compatibility with PS1-PS3 games, which is not the same thing at all. Unless I missed a whole chunk of the thread when I was scanning through earlier.

Our last thread and the few times it was brought up before that, all the PS4 chatter was about how it was going to supposedly block used games from being played. It's nice to have something a tad more official on it.

[G-Boobie]

Uhh...wrong thread? No one's been talking about "used games" in this thread. We've discussed the lack of backwards compatibility with PS1-PS3 games, which is not the same thing at all. Unless I missed a whole chunk of the thread when I was scanning through earlier.

Uhhh... Correct thread. It's the one stupid point everyone latched on to (for the second console release!), and now we know for sure.

Good try, though.

[Daltone]

I don't think it looks too bad at all. As people have pointed out - more memory, ditched the Cell processors. It all seems pretty positive at this point. The idea of games being linked in to Facebook (or whatever) appeals to me about as much as kick in the crotch, but the play whilst you download sound good.. so long as it doesn't break the internet.

He is the thing - when a game is trying to do "graphics" I expect it to do it well. Some games try to be graphically impressive and fall down horribly. The example that I always give is Deus Ex Human Revolution. In Deus Ex HR grenades would have no effect on the humble desk lamp and, for a second, I find myself looking and thinking "that's not right." Half Life 2 did decent physics in 2004. Red Faction did deformable terrain in 2001. Under a Killing Moon let you rummage through drawers in 1994. The more stuff moves, deforms and opens and closes like it should the better I find the experience.

Obviously, this doesn't apply to all games. Stuff like Baldur's Gate works for other reasons.

[danawhitaker]

Uhhh... Correct thread. It's the one stupid point everyone latched on to (for the second console release!), and now we know for sure.

Good try, though.

As someone who latched onto it and discussed it quite a bit in other threads, because I consider it a gamebreaker as to whether I'd buy a console or not, I don't consider it a stupid point. My point was that no one here was even discussing it in the official release info thread because it's apparently going to be a non-issue. So telling people to shut up about it seemed pointless. Even the Durango thread about used games has been fairly dead since the post about someone having information from a Sony rep from earlier this week/late last week.

That being said, I'll kick it off by saying that with Diablo 3 on the table, it'll be interesting to see how Blizzard handles that because on the PC that game requires having a Battle.net account and always being online even for single-player, and, as such, a key. Will they require a key and creation of a Battle.net account also for the console versions, or will it be a separate system? I have trouble seeing Blizzard being willing to give that level of control up, especially with the auction house features that are tied to the game so heavily. While that's not Sony preventing a used game from working, that would be a step in that direction, and I'd imagine would open the door to more developers/publishers showing interest in going that route on their own, especially if Diablo 3 was successful on the console (which is a topic of debate for another thread).

[JSoup]

That being said, I'll kick it off by saying that with Diablo 3 on the table, it'll be interesting to see how Blizzard handles that because on the PC that game requires having a Battle.net account and always being online even for single-player, and, as such, a key.


It will be the most glorious Error 37 action you can possibly imagine, I'm all for it.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Sony confirms that the PS4 will NOT require a persistent/always-on connection to the internet:

http://kotaku.com/5985874/ps4-will-not-require-an-always+online-connection

Stemming fears of the always-online requirement still rumored strongly for the next Xbox, a Sony PR rep confirmed to Kotaku that: "PS4 games will be playable without an Internet connection."

So, used games allowed (which by design requires the device to permit physical media), and games playable offline (where an internet connection is not somehow required to facilitate the core gaming experience).

Also, people don't seem to be answering my question how I requested, they're just citing what they didn't like about what was presented - so I'll rephrase with more clarity.

To those who claim to be "disappointed", we've heard what you didn't like about every thing that was presented. Avoiding focusing on anything/everything that Sony presented, besides the physical aesthetics of the "box" itself, what did you want to see or hear from Sony that, in your opinion they failed to deliver on? If you came away unimpressed, what SPECIFICALLY would have "impressed" you that Sony didn't present?

[GhostDog]

I think I'll stick with my PS3 for a bit while longer after the PS4 is released. Maybe two or so years until a price drop and some of the hardware bugs are out of the way and more worthwhile games are released.

[Rob2600]

With the 3DS outselling the Vita by 7-to-1 and now what many are calling an unimpressive PS4 console, is Sony going the way of Atari and Sega or can they turn it around?

[RCM]

Also, everyone shut up about the used game thing.

http://m.ign.com/articles/2013/02/21/sony-exec-playstation-4-doesnt-block-used-games

I'd rather wait until IGN receives clarification from Sony before advising anyone to shut up about this. High ranking execs have flubbed the facts before, even in my own experience with Sony. I was in a meeting with a higher up at Sony the spring or summer before PSP GO was released. He had one at the meeting and kept fiddling with it so I approached him to check it out afterward. I asked him point blank regarding the ability to transfer physical games PSP players already owned to his then-new digital-only system. He informed me in no uncertain terms that this was going to happen. He either flat out lied or they ended up cutting that option after we spoke.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

With the 3DS outselling the Vita by 7-to-1 and now what many are calling an unimpressive PS4 console, is Sony going the way of Atari and Sega or can they turn it around?

Well, they're clearly going to release a new console in 2013 and I expect them to be able to weather at least this next console generation.

What happens beyond that is anybody's guess.

As far as people being "impressed" after this first reveal or Sony packing it all in and throwing in the towel in the console/portable market ala Atari .... Sony almost always plays the marathon game and comes out okay long-term despite initial expectations. There were critics that said that the PSP and PS3 were respectively doomed out of the gate and at multiple points throughout both of their life cycles. Neither product went away prematurely.

Hardware is designed and console cycles are long enough now that they leave room for companies to alter/adjust their strategies mid-cycle via the firmware, hardware, infrastructure and reactions to whatever external things disrupt/change the market.

I'm sure that there will be plenty that feel compelled to call PS4 a "total failure" right now based on what has already been shown, but really, only time and the real-world markets will tell what happens.

[duffmanth]

I was disappointed they didn't show the console or give a price.

[Bojay1997]

I'd rather wait until IGN receives clarification from Sony before advising anyone to shut up about this. High ranking execs have flubbed the facts before, even in my own experience with Sony. I was in a meeting with a higher up at Sony the spring or summer before PSP GO was released. He had one at the meeting and kept fiddling with it so I approached him to check it out afterward. I asked him point blank regarding the ability to transfer physical games PSP players already owned to his then-new digital-only system. He informed me in no uncertain terms that this was going to happen. He either flat out lied or they ended up cutting that option after we spoke.

I agree. I also believe the journalists who asked this question asked the wrong question. It doesn't matter if the PS4 can play used discs or not. PCs can "play" used discs and you can install the full game to your hard drive from a used disc, but unless you have a unique key, you can't play the game. What matters is whether or not Sony will allow publishers to lock out used games using unique keys. Both Sony and Microsoft already allow this on the Xbox 360 and PS3 which is why multi-player passes exist. If Sony comes out and says "we will not allow publishers to lock games to a specific user or console", that would put that rumor to rest. Otherwise, they have said nothing at all.

[Bojay1997]

Sony confirms that the PS4 will NOT require a persistent/always-on connection to the internet:

http://kotaku.com/5985874/ps4-will-not-require-an-always+online-connection

Stemming fears of the always-online requirement still rumored strongly for the next Xbox, a Sony PR rep confirmed to Kotaku that: "PS4 games will be playable without an Internet connection."

So, used games allowed (which by design requires the device to permit physical media), and games playable offline (where an internet connection is not somehow required to facilitate the core gaming experience).

Also, people don't seem to be answering my question how I requested, they're just citing what they didn't like about what was presented - so I'll rephrase with more clarity.

To those who claim to be "disappointed", we've heard what you didn't like about every thing that was presented. Avoiding focusing on anything/everything that Sony presented, besides the physical aesthetics of the "box" itself, what did you want to see or hear from Sony that, in your opinion they failed to deliver on? If you came away unimpressed, what SPECIFICALLY would have "impressed" you that Sony didn't present?

I think my response about why I was disappointed was pretty clear. This is simply a modestly powered PC in a console form just like the Durango is rumored to be. I wanted something that would actually be a unique console design that does something PCs do not. Unfortunately, this will simply be a repeat of the last generation in that most games will be multi-platform and the differences between versions will be negligible.

I am disappointed that the console is Blu Ray based, even though Sony didn't even mention it during the presentation. Blu Ray is too slow to allow large games to be played off disc, so it means massive installs to the hard drive. I would have loved to see a higher speed Blu Ray or similar disc or even memory card style format.

I would also have liked Sony to actually revamp the Dualshock. Instead all they did is smooth out some of the edges and stick a touch area on the face. It would have been great if they had created a controller that had more design cues from the 360 controller (I have big hands and the Dualshock has always been uncomfortable for me to use) while maintaining the great D-pad. Similarly, I would have loved an actual screen on the controller so that I won't have to have my Vita standing by at all times for games that add some type of touch screen element.

I would have liked Sony to admit that the Move was a mistake and actually create something like a more advanced form of the Kinect. Instead it appears that they just added a second camera to the Playstation Eye.

I would have liked Sony to announce a partnership with a prominent user interface designer so they can get beyond their badly outdated ideas about what constitutes intuitive design. They totally blew the PSN revamp recently and the clips of the new interface we saw during the presentation appeared to be more of the same.

Honestly, my biggest disappointment is that something akin to the Occulus Rift wasn't announced as part of the console yesterday. Sony has been experimenting with headsets for years and having a VR headset that had great video quality at a reasonable consumer price point would revolutionize console gaming. Unfortunately, it looks like this will become a PC gaming staple long before it hits home consoles.

I'm sure I will buy this at launch just like I'll buy the Durango, but I feel like this design is too little too late and not really exciting enough to capture consumers who have moved on to other devices for their gaming or who will be tempted to be by things like Steambox or even plain old gaming PCs.

[G-Boobie]

My point was that no one here was even discussing it in the official release info thread because it's apparently going to be a non-issue. So telling people to shut up about it seemed pointless. Even the Durango thread about used games has been fairly dead since the post about someone having information from a Sony rep from earlier this week/late last week.

So what? It's a relevant nugget of information about the PS4, which is what this thread is about, correct? Are you really going to be so anal retentive that you're going to whine if I don't post in the exact thread you'd like? Get off. I got in some stupid arguments with stupid, panicky people about this very subject, and I'd like to enjoy my success. Thanks forum guy.


I'd rather wait until IGN receives clarification from Sony before advising anyone to shut up about this. High ranking execs have flubbed the facts before, even in my own experience with Sony. I was in a meeting with a higher up at Sony the spring or summer before PSP GO was released. He had one at the meeting and kept fiddling with it so I approached him to check it out afterward. I asked him point blank regarding the ability to transfer physical games PSP players already owned to his then-new digital-only system. He informed me in no uncertain terms that this was going to happen. He either flat out lied or they ended up cutting that option after we spoke.

Here's a whole bunch of links to different articles confirming the information.

LINK UNO (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-205_162-57570518/ps4-wont-block-used-games-143-developers-on-board/)
LINK ZWEI (http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2013/02/21/dont-worry-ps4-will-play-used-games/)
LINK TROIS (http://www.engadget.com/2013/02/21/sonys-yushida-used-games-can-play-on-a-ps4/)

It's all from the same source; an interview with Yoshida where he says, and I quote for those too lazy to read the links, "So used games can play on PS4. How's that?". So that's likely to turn out the way GameStop prefers.

So now that we've all forgotten that this is Sony we're talking about, how's about a confirmation that there's no PSN and save game backwards compatibility sound? So we have something to bitch about again?

GET READY GET MAD (http://www.engadget.com/2013/02/21/sony-psn-games-wont-transfer-to-ps4/)

EDIT: Ok, now Sony is saying that they COULD make them compatible, "if they choose to." So who knows what's going on.

[Bojay1997]

So what? It's a relevant nugget of information about the PS4, which is what this thread is about, correct? Are you really going to be so anal retentive that you're going to whine if I don't post in the exact thread you'd like? Get off. I got in some stupid arguments with stupid, panicky people about this very subject, and I'd like to enjoy my success. Thanks forum guy.



Here's a whole bunch of links to different articles confirming the information.

LINK UNO (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-205_162-57570518/ps4-wont-block-used-games-143-developers-on-board/)
LINK ZWEI (http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2013/02/21/dont-worry-ps4-will-play-used-games/)
LINK TROIS (http://www.engadget.com/2013/02/21/sonys-yushida-used-games-can-play-on-a-ps4/)

It's all from the same source; an interview with Yoshida where he says, and I quote for those too lazy to read the links, "So used games can play on PS4. How's that?". So that's likely to turn out the way GameStop prefers.

So now that we've all forgotten that this is Sony we're talking about, how's about a confirmation that there's no PSN and save game backwards compatibility sound? So we have something to bitch about again?

GET READY GET MAD (http://www.engadget.com/2013/02/21/sony-psn-games-wont-transfer-to-ps4/)

Again, it was not a clear denial nor did it clarify what happens if and when publishers want to release games on the PS4 and lock content to a particular user or console. His comments could be seen as also describing a Steam like model where used games can be transferred to other users or devices. Here is the first part of the quotation - "They purchase physical form; they want to use it everywhere, right? So that's my expectation." I have a lot of expectations in life, but that's not the same as reality unfortunately.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

I would have liked Sony to admit that the Move was a mistake and actually create something like a more advanced form of the Kinect. Instead it appears that they just added a second camera to the Playstation Eye.

I completely disagree with you about Move. The tech is extremely well designed, functions amazing in software when well implemented, sold somewhere over ten million units, it's been as supported in retail software as Kinect-compatible games (110 Move games vs. 141 Kinect) and, unlike a vast majority of Kinect software, it has the benefit of a physical interface (ie, buttons). I thought everybody loved buttons? Aren't buttons a thing or has the worm turned there? Do we hate buttons now?

Don't get me wrong, Kinect is completely fine for what it is, but outside of Microsoft blitzing the hardware at retail and getting into millions of homes - I think it being "superior" technology/product is completely a point of opinion.

I don't see any reason why Sony should abandon the Move tech. Support the wands. Give those who have invested in Move a reason to carry the hardware forward to PS4 with the addition of superior camera tech that makes something that works well potentially work even better/more accurately, that seems totally reasonable from a value standpoint.

[danawhitaker]

So what? It's a relevant nugget of information about the PS4, which is what this thread is about, correct? Are you really going to be so anal retentive that you're going to whine if I don't post in the exact thread you'd like? Get off. I got in some stupid arguments with stupid, panicky people about this very subject, and I'd like to enjoy my success. Thanks forum girl.

Hmm. Perhaps it's your attitude that's rubbing me the wrong way. Your original post about it had such an abrasive tone to it and came out of thin air because no one had mentioned the issue in two full pages of posts. It's like that guy who stands up and screams something random in the middle of another conversation. I don't disagree that it's an important topic to bring up, but your comment actually had me looking back through the entire thread to see who you might have even been responding to because I honestly thought I'd missed something, which means you did a poor job of communicating your message. I don't care that you didn't post it in another thread. I care that it came with an abrasive attitude, with no context whatsoever. Congratulations on (maybe) being right.

I actually agree with Bojay. The comments from Sony don't seem to unequivocally support used games. Used games have very little to do with statements like "They purchase physical form; they want to use it everywhere, right? So that's my expectation." - that sounds much more like a Steam model. "So, used games can play on PS4. How is that?" That one seems to indicate used games will work, I agree, but it almost seems like something's lost in translation or the question wasn't fully understood. The fact that always-on connectivity isn't going to be required though seems to lend itself more certainly in the allowing used games camp. Though even that's not a certainty. Not requiring always-on isn't the same as requiring sometimes-on in order to theoretically register games, which, from my understanding of Steam from friends who use it, is how that works.

[Bojay1997]

I completely disagree with you about Move. The tech is extremely well designed, functions amazing in software when well implemented, sold somewhere over ten million units, it's been as supported in retail software as Kinect-compatible games (110 Move games vs. 141 Kinect) and, unlike a vast majority of Kinect software, it has the benefit of a physical interface (ie, buttons). I thought everybody loved buttons? Aren't buttons a thing or has the worm turned there? Do we hate buttons now?

Don't get me wrong, Kinect is completely fine for what it is, but outside of Microsoft blitzing the hardware at retail and getting into millions of homes - I think it being "superior" technology/product is completely a point of opinion.

I don't see any reason why Sony should abandon the Move tech. Support the wands. Give those who have invested in Move a reason to carry the hardware forward to PS4 with the addition of superior camera tech that makes something that works well potentially work even better/more accurately, that seems totally reasonable from a value standpoint.

I disagree. Sony has largely abandoned the Move on the PS3 and the only major first party implementation of Move compatibility lately has been as an add-on feature to FPS shooters. Move was significantly less expensive than Kinect and the worldwide install base on the PS3 is similar in size to the Xbox 360 and yet it moved less than half as many units than the Kinect has. The Kinect has sold over 25 million units and actually works really well for dance and exercise games. It also adds some fun features to various FPS and racing games without messing with their tight control schemes. Have you actually spent any significant time playing with Kinect recently? Developers have become very adept at focusing on its strengths and it doesn't require the user to make much effot to change their play style. I can't say the same about Move.

I like buttons on a joystick or joypad controller. I think buttons and physical devices have no place in a motion type control scheme.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

I disagree. Sony has largely abandoned the Move on the PS3 and the only major first party implementation of Move compatibility lately has been as an add-on feature to FPS shooters. Move was significantly less expensive than Kinect and the worldwide install base on the PS3 is similar in size to the Xbox 360 and yet it moved less than half as many units than the Kinect has. The Kinect has sold over 25 million units and actually works really well for dance and exercise games. It also adds some fun features to various FPS and racing games without messing with their tight control schemes. Have you actually spent any significant time playing with Kinect recently? Developers have become very adept at focusing on its strengths and it doesn't require the user to make much effot to change their play style. I can't say the same about Move.

I like buttons on a joystick or joypad controller. I think buttons and physical devices have no place in a motion type control scheme.

I'm NOT downplaying Kinect's strengths and implemention, I just don't personally consider it to be "superior" tech. They're both good for different reasons and I see no reason for Sony to toss years of R&D on Move to just concede "failure" based on some units sold vs. units sold metric.

If they believe that they can improve on Move in the next gen, why not let them, especially if users don't have to re-buy hardware.

Also, there's a strong possibility that the next gen Playstation camera will do Kinect like body tracking without the move wand. The past two generations of Playstation camera tech already can track motion pretty adeptly. So, if the new cam can do that AND use the Move tech with a greater level of fidelity I don't see a losing proposition, I see all the more bases covered, but we'll have to see what the deal is with the new camera beyond it being stereoscopic.

[Trumpman]

I was pretty impressed with the show, although I didn't watch it live and just read the write ups afterward. Seems like Sony's really learned their lessons about the debacle of the PS3 launch. Expecting Sony to maintain backwards compatibility for all three previous systems was never going to happen -- the Gaikai thing seems like a very logical way for them to use that technology. Yes, it is a PC, but why is that a bad thing? Console have been becoming PC's for a decade now.

As someone who is definitely ready for the next generation to begin (has anyone seen the Crysis 3 videos? unreal), I'm excited to see Microsoft's response.

[The 1 2 P]

Regarding the used game issue, I still think it's very unlikely that either Sony or Microsoft would block used games. Doing so would cut off a significant amount of their potential buyers. However, the tech is already there this gen with the PS3 and 360 but only gets used for stuff like making MMO games(DC Universe, etc) a one time use disc and of course the implementation of online passes to block online multiplayer for used games. With each generation it seems that consoles borrow more and more features from traditional gaming PC's but until consoles become download only devices for their game delivery I doubt we will see a traditional console from Microsoft, Sony or Nintendo do away completely with used game disc.

Back on topic, I found the entire conference to be very long-winded and pretty boring at times. That doesn't mean I didn't like the interesting parts but this thing ran around two hours and ten minutes. Had they cut out all the BS fluff/filler they could have streamlined this into a very well organized hour to hour and a half conference. I wasn't interested in any of the exclusives they showed. In fact, the only two games I cared about(Destiny and Watch Dogs) will be coming out for this gens systems as well as next gen systems. But going into this I wasn't expecting much. I knew that this was basically just going to be a tease reveal. But for a two hour long tease they probably could have done alot more with it. But we'll have to wait until around E3 for that. Speaking of which...



I was disappointed they didn't show the console or give a price.

While getting to see the actual system would have been nice, there was no chance in hell they were going to announce the launch price. And the reason is very simple. If they tell you right now that this new system is going to cost between $450-$600(which is what the UK equivalent is now being offered on preorder for) then a huge majority of people would already lose interest in the system then and there. The goal is to build up momentum over the course of several months/years to get people so excited that by the time you tell them the price theres a good chance that they will still want to purchase the system on launch....even if it's out of their price range. So don't expect a price announcement until atleast E3 in June but probably even closer to launch.

[Mangar]

Regarding the used game issue, I still think it's very unlikely that either Sony or Microsoft would block used games. Doing so would cut off a significant amount of their potential buyers. However, the tech is already there this gen with the PS3 and 360 but only gets used for stuff like making MMO games(DC Universe, etc) a one time use disc and of course the implementation of online passes to block online multiplayer for used games. With each generation it seems that consoles borrow more and more features from traditional gaming PC's but until consoles become download only devices for their game delivery I doubt we will see a traditional console from Microsoft, Sony or Nintendo do away completely with used game disc.

Just as a quick tid-bit...


http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/02/sonys-yoshida-playstation-4-wont-block-used-games/




Update: Speaking at a roundtable session with the press attended by Ars Technica, Shuhei Yoshida stated that "when you purchase the disc-based games for PS4, that should work on any hardware." When asked whether games would require online registration, Yoshida noted that that decision was up to the publisher. When asked if Sony, as a publisher, would require games to be registered online, Yoshida said, "we are not talking about that plan."

While Yoshida's statement leaves open the possibility that individual publishers can still block used games at will, it's just as likely he was simply leaving the door open for the kind of "Online Pass" purchase systems that already routinely limit certain online game functions in used copies of games. So while there's still a bit of wiggle room in Sony's public comments, we'd also caution against reading to much into what Yoshida did (or didn't) say.

Original story: It's been a tense time for gamers who happen to be fans of both Sony and the preowned game market, with rampant rumors (and even patent filings) suggesting that the PlayStation 4 might include a method to let the system block used game discs. Sony didn't directly address the matter during its lengthy PlayStation Meeting Wednesday night, but Sony Worldwide Studios boss Shuhei Yoshida has now publicly put the whole thing to rest: The PlayStation 4 will not block used game discs from being played.

Eurogamer got a chance to sit down with Yoshida after the public presentation, and the publication asked him about the issue directly. "Do you want us to do that?" he reportedly answered, coyly, before noting that the "general expectation" among consumers is that they should be able to use their discs everywhere. After conferring with his Japanese PR advisor, he answered a bit more directly:

"So, used games can play on PS4. How is that?" Eurogamer's reporter said it was fine, and we have to agree.

Eurogamer also cites an unnamed Sony source in saying that the previously reported disc-blocking patent "had nothing to do with PlayStation 4 at all."

The focus now turns to Microsoft, which has seen more rumors that it will use forced installs and a required Internet connection as a method to stop used game sales on its next Xbox (even earning a preemptive public warning from GameStop on the matter). Making such a move independently of Sony would seem to be extremely risky, given that consumers could easily change their system purchase decisions based on this important factor. Still, a determined Microsoft could power through the consequences anyway in an attempt to cater to the many big publishers that absolutely hate the used game market, which they see as a drain on their profit-generating new game sales.

Bottom Line: Sony isn't blocking used games. If Microsoft chooses too, I'd say it's absolute suicide for the Xbox.

[Bojay1997]

Just as a quick tid-bit...


http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/02/sonys-yoshida-playstation-4-wont-block-used-games/



Bottom Line: Sony isn't blocking used games. If Microsoft chooses too, I'd say it's absolute suicide for the Xbox.

You really need to read the entire article if you're going to use it as the basis for your representation of something as a fact. The article concludes that Sony didn't rule out allowing publishers to block used games and didn't rule out doing it in the future themselves. The writer cautioned not to read too much into anything Mr. Yoshida said. I personally think neither Durango nor PS4 will launch with titles being locked to a particular console or account or user. I do, however, think individual publishers will start doing it pretty quickly, especially since games are likely to be released across PS4, Durango and PC simultaneously this generation and PC users already have such locks in place. I hope I'm wrong, but Sony has not been clear at all in what their intent might be regarding this issue.

[heybtbm]

Uh-oh. Not good news...

http://www.gamespot.com/news/playstation-4-wont-be-compatible-with-current-gen-psn-titles-6404274?

Sounds like a hardware issue? If someone was looking for a specific example of a PS4 disappointment, this would be mine.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

So, hypothetical scenario:

PS4 games brand new on Blu-Ray come with a one-time activation code (either on paper or coded into the disc).

Another "activation code" costs, say, $10 for a game that's $40-$60 MSRP, and $5 for a game that costs $20 MSRP. (I HOPE that the fees will be less, but let's just go with those numbers for the sake of this scenario.)

If GameStop wants to continue to monetize used software on this platform, they give less in trade in value for the game and sell the used copy at a low enough price point to accommodate for the activation code price and not make the buyer "feel" it.

If they were going to sell the used game for $40, they'll have to sell it for $30. Period.

Sure, GameStop will feel it a bit, but ultimately, it's a hit they'll have to take if this is the reality that consumers are going to face with used software.

IF this turns out to be the reality of the situation, they can't do it any other way. Where a new game costs $50 they can't sell the used one for $40 knowing that the buyer is going to have to pay another $10 when they try to play it. They're still going to have to give shoppers a reason to go with the used merch because that's their business model.

There are still plenty of other avenues for them to profit as a retail chain.