Best and Worst N64 games?

[sonicfan154]

Best
5. Zelda Majoras Mask
4. Mario Kart 64
3. Zelda Ocarina of Time
2. Banjo Kazooie
1. Banjo Tooie

[sonicfan154]

Worst
3. Blues Brothers 64
2. Carmageddon 64
1. Superman

[Atarileaf]

I like Mario Kart and Robotron 64, Ridge Racer is pretty good, Beetle Adventure Racing. I don't wanna say that any are the worst but its not a system I care for beyond those few games I mentioned.

[SOL BADGUY]

I played Daikatana just because the story of how it was made was interesting to me. Horrible horrible game, I couldnt get to the sword in the vault, so I had to use a level select cheat to get to the end of the game. This port doesnt have the side kicks interacting with you in the actual gameplay, theyre just in the cut scenes, and the chick turns into the final boss. This could have been a better game, but no could make that version.

Oh yeah my favorites are
Zelda OoT
Banjo Kazooie
Mario Kart
DOOM 64
Mystical Ninja Starring Goemon
Shadowman is shamefully under rated
Starfox

[understatement]

All games are the worst when played with the original controller. If you get a Hori mini pad there are some playable games.

[SOL BADGUY]

All games are the worst when played with the original controller.

I have no clue why people hate the controller, I thought it was perfect for what it was doing.

[FrankSerpico]

I enjoyed the hell out of Body Harvest, Jet Force Gemini and Mischief Makers. Also even though I'm not an Episode 1 fan Battle for Naboo is a very well made game with some of the best sound and visuals on the console. As for the worst, aside from the already mentioned stuff like Carmageddon and Daikatana, Polaris SnoCross is a pile as is Chef's Luv Shack

[ZP3]

I have no clue why people hate the controller, I thought it was perfect for what it was doing.

I as well cannot understand the hate for the N64 controller. Its simple and gets the job done. Why the hate?

[Gameguy]

I as well cannot understand the hate for the N64 controller. Its simple and gets the job done. Why the hate?
Probably because the joystick wears out if you actually use the controller more than once.

[SOL BADGUY]

Probably because the joystick wears out if you actually use the controller more than once.

Never had this problem with mine and Ive used it for years on and off. Played all the way through Starfox 10 times, most of Banjo Kazooie, and other games with it. But, maybe it was a first version failure that they fixed with others. I have the Green see through version. Ive noticed though people really abuse their controllers/arcade sticks unlike me.

[understatement]

Probably because the joystick wears out if you actually use the controller more than once.

That and the cater-cornered angle that you have to hold the controller to use the stick always messes with me.

[The Adventurer]

My favorite N64 games are...

Super Mario 64
Legend of Zelda Majora's Mask
Blast Corps
Space Station Silicon Valley
Star Fox 64

So they are the ones I conciser 'best'

EDIT: Also I adore the design of the N64 controller. But not as much as the GameCube controller. Which is the greatest game controller ever produced.

[Sysop]

I enjoyed the hell out of Body Harvest, Jet Force Gemini and Mischief Makers. Also even though I'm not an Episode 1 fan Battle for Naboo is a very well made game with some of the best sound and visuals on the console. As for the worst, aside from the already mentioned stuff like Carmageddon and Daikatana, Polaris SnoCross is a pile as is Chef's Luv Shack
South Park: Chef's Luv Shack isn't too bad a game for what it is. It is definitely possible to derive some form of entertainment from the minigames when playing against friends.

[Polygon]

I'm not going to get involved in the best/worst debate as I hate trying to pick. However, I too don't get the animosity towards the N64 controller. I love it and none of my original controllers have worn out joysticks and they have plenty of play time on them. Sure, they wear out but they're cheap and easy enough to replace.

[o.pwuaioc]

5. Robotron 64
4. Doom 64
3. GoldenEye
2. Super Mario 64
1. Ogre Battle 64

Honorable Mentions:

Bomberman 64
Diddy Kong Racing
Mario Kart Racing
Perfect Dark
Rayman 2

[BlastProcessing402]

I have no clue why people hate the controller, I thought it was perfect for what it was doing.

It was uncomfortable as hell when playing games that used analog mode (which is practically the entire library) but for the few games that used digital mode (mainly WCW and WWF games like No Mercy) it was bliss.


Probably because the joystick wears out if you actually use the controller more than once.

My launch N64's original controller still works just fine. People abusing the hell out of the controllers wore them out (apparently certain Mario Party minigames caused a lot of this) but people who actually treated them right had little to worry about.

[tom]

1:
http://www.videogamecollectors.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=201532&g2_serialNumber=1

2:
http://www.videogamecollectors.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=201523&g2_serialNumber=1

3:
http://www.videogamecollectors.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=201535&g2_serialNumber=2

4:
http://www.videogamecollectors.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=201540&g2_serialNumber=1

[SOL BADGUY]

It was uncomfortable as hell when playing games that used analog mode (which is practically the entire library) but for the few games that used digital mode (mainly WCW and WWF games like No Mercy) it was bliss.



My launch N64's original controller still works just fine. People abusing the hell out of the controllers wore them out (apparently certain Mario Party minigames caused a lot of this) but people who actually treated them right had little to worry about.

I think a BIG thing we have to think about is how our thumbs and hands are shaped. I saw a reply to AVGN's Genesis vs SNES video where a guy showed his hands on a Genesis and SNES controller, he said the Genesis was better than the SNES controller unlike what James said, well when you look at their thumbs they have entirely different shaped hands. So if he had James' hands hed probably like the SNES controller and not the Genesis one.


Oh god, Im talking about peoples thumbs, then I get back on FB and find out Roger Ebert is dead. :(

[Ed Oscuro]

Two big thumbs up! RIP Mr. Ebert.

Some games that are regarded as "worsts" actually are very good - a prime example of this is the obscure Aidyn Chronicles, which starts off so very, VERY badly, but actually gets interesting in a while. Unfortunately I encountered a bug, and tons of headaches from the subpar framerate, and gave up. Definitely need to be more N64s overclocked, and Nintendo should've had it done from the start. There is a certain emulator out that offers overclocking capability for any game, but Aidyn Chronicles doesn't render properly in it.

I don't mind the N64 controller that much, but it doesn't sit in two hands as nicely as does a Dual Shock (recommended one-hand cradle grip = lolwut), and on top of that I have two remaining complaints: One, the stick in the middle does wear out (and I've never played any of the Party games, so it's just from normal use, more or less; it's definitely less durable than the Dual Shock, which isn't rock solid either, but much closer to the durability of a modern controller) with the plastic joystick wearing itself down into a chalk-like substance collecting around the middle ball; two, the thin top of the joystick is very uncomfortable to press sideways against, and it's easy to slip your grip otherwise. The PSX controller would have this problem as well but that, like the modern Xbox Joystick, gives you a well-shaped and well-textured middle nub to grib your thumb. Oh, and don't even get me started on trying to dash through levels in Mischief Makers using the buttons...argh. However, as mentioned the Hori joystick seems very nice, but also very small.

If you can overlook massive amounts of pain (either to the fingers or your eyes), there's a few good ones I didn't notice in people's lists:

Extreme G (either of them, but especially the second)
Cruis'n and the Rush games (any but Cruis'n USA which is a kind of lackluster release) - just fun to goof around with but the Rush games add some element of replayability, like the collectible tokens in SF Rush
Mischief Makers
Sin & Punishment - this one actually seems to have gone DOWN in price
Castlevania - very nice sense of heights in this one, the gameplay is pretty slap happy, but still fun.

[The Adventurer]

Hybrid Heaven. Bad game? Or Worst Game?

[A Black Falcon]

Best
1. Zelda Ocarina of Time
2. Mario 64
3. San Francisco Rush 2049
4. F-Zero X
5. Wipeout 64

Honorable Mentions: Scores of games on this, my favorite console...

Worst
1. Dark Rift
2. War Gods

I have a good 150 N64 games, but the N64 doesn't have many bad games... though I do intentionally stay away from genres I would dislike like football or wrestling games (I will admit the the NFL Blitz games aren't too bad, but wrestling? Yeah, I really dislike any and all of those.). Those two fighting games there are really, REALLY bad, though. Some N64 3d fighting games are okay to good for their time (Mace: The Dark Age, Flying Dragon, Fighter's Destiny 1 and 2, Mortal Kombat 4, Dual Heroes, Bio Freaks), but those two... man are they terrible. Clayfighter 63 1/3 and Clayfighter Sculptor's Cut are masterpieces in comparison, and those two are pretty mediocre. Overall N64 fighting games have aged worse than the 3d platform-adventure games or the racing games, but at least some of them can still be some fun if you can still enjoy 5th gen 3d fighting games... but Dark Rift and War Gods? Only play if you like to suffer.


Also, Aidyn Chronicles is a legitimately very good game; if you can deal with the slow pace and horrible bugginess of the game, there's a huge game there with a lot to love. It definitely isn't for everyone, though, sure. I also like Carmageddon 64. Ignore the "it's the worst N64 game ever!" stuff. It isn't, at all. Sure, it's not the best, and it isn't as good as the original Carmageddon for the PC, but it is an okay game that I, at least, find fun to play. Oh, and Hybrid Heaven is a pretty decent game as well.


Two big thumbs up! RIP Mr. Ebert.

Some games that are regarded as "worsts" actually are very good - a prime example of this is the obscure Aidyn Chronicles, which starts off so very, VERY badly, but actually gets interesting in a while. Unfortunately I encountered a bug, and tons of headaches from the subpar framerate, and gave up. Definitely need to be more N64s overclocked, and Nintendo should've had it done from the start. There is a certain emulator out that offers overclocking capability for any game, but Aidyn Chronicles doesn't render properly in it.
Yeah, the game has bugs, but there's so much there if you have patience... though yeah, backing up your save files somehow is a very good idea.


I don't mind the N64 controller that much, but it doesn't sit in two hands as nicely as does a Dual Shock (recommended one-hand cradle grip = lolwut), and on top of that I have two remaining complaints: One, the stick in the middle does wear out (and I've never played any of the Party games, so it's just from normal use, more or less; it's definitely less durable than the Dual Shock, which isn't rock solid either, but much closer to the durability of a modern controller) with the plastic joystick wearing itself down into a chalk-like substance collecting around the middle ball; two, the thin top of the joystick is very uncomfortable to press sideways against, and it's easy to slip your grip otherwise. The PSX controller would have this problem as well but that, like the modern Xbox Joystick, gives you a well-shaped and well-textured middle nub to grib your thumb. Oh, and don't even get me started on trying to dash through levels in Mischief Makers using the buttons...argh. However, as mentioned the Hori joystick seems very nice, but also very small.

If you can overlook massive amounts of pain (either to the fingers or your eyes), there's a few good ones I didn't notice in people's lists:
The N64 controller, painful to hold? What? I couldn't disagree more, it's quite comfortable, and certainly is vastly superior to anything from Sony... Sony's controllers are all far too small, and that dpad-above, analog stick-below design is terrible. It makes using the analog stick a bit uncomfortable, and the d-pad's no good either thanks to that awful missing center. And the analog sticks are RIDICULOUSLY inaccurate too, anything from Nintendo is better.

I know I'm biased -- the N64 controller and Saturn 3D controller are probably still my two favorite gamepads ever, while the Playstation is a bad controller and I'm still sad that its design is now the basic layout of all controllers -- but yeah, the N64 controller's incredible, one of the best designs I've seen.

[Superman]

1:
http://www.videogamecollectors.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=201532&g2_serialNumber=1

2:
http://www.videogamecollectors.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=201523&g2_serialNumber=1

3:
http://www.videogamecollectors.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=201535&g2_serialNumber=2

4:
http://www.videogamecollectors.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=201540&g2_serialNumber=1

Is that your best or worst list? lol

[Ed Oscuro]

The N64 controller, painful to hold? What? I couldn't disagree more, it's quite comfortable, and certainly is vastly superior to anything from Sony... Sony's controllers are all far too small, and that dpad-above, analog stick-below design is terrible. It makes using the analog stick a bit uncomfortable, and the d-pad's no good either thanks to that awful missing center. And the analog sticks are RIDICULOUSLY inaccurate too, anything from Nintendo is better.
Did you read anything I wrote beyond the first sentence? I didn't say it was painful to hold the controller (I called the one-hand-cradling method awkward, but I didn't have any problem using a two-fisted approach like with a Dual Shock). I said it was painful to try to push the analog stick from the side, and again, this is at issue because the analog stick doesn't have a good grip surface at all. It doesn't have any kind of rubbery texture, just a few raised rings (which, again, don't score any points for comfort). BEHOLD! (http://macromeme.com/dog/jesus-mario-party.html)

About the other issues, those may be true, but I would rather deal with wobbly PS1 dual analog stick slop than having my thumb slip off the N64 stick due to its poor design. And of course the modern controllers are a leap beyond both of those controllers, in stick grip area as well as accuracy and reduction of the dead zone.

[tom]

Is that your best or worst list? lol

Oh I forgot, it's my best list.
Worst, I just don't buy those, not yet anyway.

[needler420]

Can't believe no one mentioned rares conkers bad fur day yet.

[understatement]

However, as mentioned the Hori joystick seems very nice, but also very small.

What do you mean by small exactly? Because I hear this a lot and it was the only thing that held me back from getting one for a long time but after just biting the bullet and getting one it's actually pretty big. It's about the same size as a gamecube controller. I think what makes it feel smaller is it's button layout but as in terms of holding it, it has a fair size. Comparing it to the parts of the N64 controller you actually use it's a good bit wider and in my opinion so much more comfortable to hold.

[wiggyx]

It's just "small" in comparison to the relatively large size of the original N64 controller is all. It's not really small at all if you ask me.

[Daltone]

In no particular order..

Best:

Goldeneye
Blast Corps
Zelda OoT
Zelda M's Mask
Mario 64

Worst (Ignoring the unholy trinity of Carmageddon, Superman and Daikitana)

South Park (FPS)
Smash Bros
Mario Party
Something about the Power Rangers
Batman Beyond

I actually think that the N64 has some of the best worst games around. They are so very, very horrible tha I love playing them. Superman, Clayfighter, Carmageddon, Daikitana etc have reached some sort of level beyond bad where it is actually fun to see just how awful and broken they are. That could just be me though. My "worst" list is very subjective and is based on games which have bored the life out of me. A lot of people like Smash Bros and Mario Party, even South Park was popular for a time, but I never could stand them.

Distinct lack of love for Majora's Mask here at the moment.

Oh, it seems we have had something (sort of) similar before - http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?114086-Top-50-and-Bottom-25-Nintendo-64-games-list

[Gameguy]

The N64 controller, painful to hold? What? I couldn't disagree more, it's quite comfortable, and certainly is vastly superior to anything from Sony... Sony's controllers are all far too small, and that dpad-above, analog stick-below design is terrible. It makes using the analog stick a bit uncomfortable, and the d-pad's no good either thanks to that awful missing center. And the analog sticks are RIDICULOUSLY inaccurate too, anything from Nintendo is better.
As an adult the controller isn't that bad, I just remember playing the system as a kid when it originally came out at kiosks. I really hated the controller as it didn't feel right, all I remember now is what it was like back then.

As for the analog stick, I tend to dislike the quality of it because I compare it to the Vectrex stick. Something that came out over a decade earlier, and is much better quality. I haven't ruined my joysticks but I've come across plenty of controllers that are ruined like this, certain games really force you to push the joysticks as far as possible and playing these games often causes wear. It is a design flaw so I blame Nintendo for that mistake. Besides the controller the rest of the built quality is really good, it's harder to find damaged N64s compared to damaged PS1s.

[sneekyweezel]

Doom 64 is totally awesome, especially on watch me die difficulty. Super Mario 64= awesome too! The Tetris 64 rules as well. The James Bond also.

[o.pwuaioc]

Doom 64 is totally awesome, especially on watch me die difficulty.

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought so!

[Rob2600]

Best and Worst N64 games?

Based on review scores, here are the Top 50 and Bottom 25 Nintendo 64 games:

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?114086-Top-50-and-Bottom-25-Nintendo-64-games-list

[BydoEmpire]

Best:
Paper Mario - my #1 N64 game of all time, also the last one I bought for the system
Mario 64
Mario Kart 64
007 Goldeneye
Jet Force Gemini - except having to replay the whole f'ing game to get the 'real' ending. Hate that.
Space Station Silicon Valley

Personally, I loved the controller. Never had any issues with it. I never bought any games for the n64 I hated, so I'm not sure I can do a "worst" list. It'd be a bunch of stuff I never played and only heard about.

[FrankSerpico]

This thread has made me want to give Aidyn Chronicles another look

[Ed Oscuro]

Doom 64 is totally awesome, especially on watch me die difficulty.
Indeed, although it plays much better if you can use a keyboard + mouse combination. That's a bit of work to set up in an emulator (i.e. using Darkman's DInput plugin) but nowadays you have the possibility of playing the DOOM 64 TC, Absolution, or its successor - a real port based on DOOM source code, DOOM 64 EX. I've been meaning to play that for a while.

Still feel bad I never picked that one up at retail, I can still see it behind the glass case. I coulda swore it had a red or black cart release though...

This thread has made me want to give Aidyn Chronicles another look
Be prepared for a lot of grinding.

Reading about the game online recently, I found out that there are lots of very interesting character development paths. Depending on who you have in your party and when, different cutscenes will trigger during your journey. It is also mostly open-world, which is really amazing for the time. The downsides, aside from the obvious ones (sometimes poor graphics, poor framerate, poor variety of battle types and arenas, etc.), include a bug whereby you can't follow up a particular interesting plot sideline, and nobody has seemed to figure this out. I also would warn you that if you're playing on an emulator, the psuedo-random generation of hits and dodges means that you can seem to be "stuck" with a savestate where a player is stuck before a killing blow (and yes, it's permanent, restart if somebody dies) or one of the spells which takes a character out of the fight, but sometimes, if you mash the buttons or turn the stick a bit, it might turn out differently. Anyway, the bottom line is that even on an emulator you need to keep the regular save file up-to-date, and you need also to be careful with savestates.

Also be sure you know which player and equipment stats are useful. There are some "core" stats which make melee combat work well, and as far as I got in the game I still didn't have any use for magic. Anyway, I shouldn't reveal more than this, but if you do get into the game, keep both eyes wide open :)

[SOL BADGUY]

Project64 is one of my favorite emulators, you have the cheats in the cheats section all ready to go. It had hidef settings to make games look as sharp as you want them to be. I just wish more work would be done on it, they released a 2.0 version, but the only difference people have really heard is that the code is cleaner. :S

[A Black Falcon]

Did you read anything I wrote beyond the first sentence? I didn't say it was painful to hold the controller (I called the one-hand-cradling method awkward, but I didn't have any problem using a two-fisted approach like with a Dual Shock).
You hold the N64 controller with one hand on the middle prong and one on the left, unless it's a dpad-only game in which case you hold it on left and right. And with either of those methods, it's comfortable.


I said it was painful to try to push the analog stick from the side, and again, this is at issue because the analog stick doesn't have a good grip surface at all. It doesn't have any kind of rubbery texture, just a few raised rings (which, again, don't score any points for comfort). BEHOLD! (http://macromeme.com/dog/jesus-mario-party.html)
What are you talking about, "push the analog stick from the side"? The N64 analog stick is no less comfortable to use than most any other analog stick, except maybe that large flat one on the Saturn 3D Controller which is quite comfortable, but has a very minimal range of motion... you're right that the N64 analog stick isn't rubberized, but the three rings give you plenty of grip. Other than the wear problem, it's a great stick.


About the other issues, those may be true, but I would rather deal with wobbly PS1 dual analog stick slop than having my thumb slip off the N64 stick due to its poor design. And of course the modern controllers are a leap beyond both of those controllers, in stick grip area as well as accuracy and reduction of the dead zone.
My thumbs have never had that problem. But as for accuracy and dead zone... maybe that is true for degraded N64 analog stick, but when new they're great. I prefer the feel of the N64 analog stick to the ones on the GC and Wii... those are good too, but I really like the feel of the N64 stick. And that's why I have no interest in any N64 controller with a Gamecube-style stick on it.

[Ed Oscuro]

That's a nice big lump of "well I never had that problem." Well, good for you. I wish everybody was that lucky.

[Aussie2B]

The problem with conversations about the N64, which always degrade when someone chimes in about how much the controller supposedly sucks, is that the naysayers can't even fathom that other people have different-shaped hands and different experiences with the N64 controller and controllers in general. For me personally, the N64 controller is quite possibly the most ergonomic I've held, The shape of the grips, the placement of the buttons/stick, it's all pretty much spot-on for me. My launch day controller still has a well-functioning stick too, basically the same as it's ever been, since I'm not one to mistreat my controllers and grind the stick like crazy. There are some flaws with the controller in my eyes (namely the stiff, low quality D-pad, although it thankfully isn't used by most games), but my opinion of it overall is pretty high. I don't think I have oddball opinions and I don't think I'm an exceptional case. There are plenty of people who feel the same. That said, being a woman, I have fairly small hands. I don't know what it's like to hold a N64 controller with large hands or hands that are otherwise shaped differently, and I never will. For that reason, I have no problem accepting that others may have had vastly different experiences with the N64 controller and others, and I wish the haters could show the same respect and not spout their opinions and experiences as concrete, universally applicable fact. I've been on the other side of the table, of course. I don't even have that favorable of a view on well-loved controllers like the Dual Shock and 360 controller, and while I'm happy to share my personal problems with them, I can respect that plenty of people thoroughly love them. Even with a controller I loathe, like the Dreamcast's, it may be hard for me to comprehend how someone could have any kind of positive view of it, let alone love it, but all I can do is shrug and accept that everybody's different. I'm not going to pop into every Dreamcast topic and start arguing with Dreamcast fans to try to convince them that the controller sucks.

[Ed Oscuro]

I used the N64 controller for years and years. I had that system and used it regularly well into the PS2 era, and I've got a huge box of different style N64 controllers. I think I know which end plugs into the system by now.

The problem with conversations about the N64, which always degrade when someone chimes in about how much the controller supposedly sucks, is that the naysayers can't even fathom that other people have different-shaped hands and different experiences with the N64 controller and controllers in general.
So if we split the difference between a modern-style Dual Shock or Xbox controller being "almost the most ergonomic," as far as you're concerned, then it's no big deal for you either way.

Then we get people who find the analog joystick in the N64 an absolute disaster and indeed uncomfortable to use at times, whereas the Xbox sticks seem to work for everybody. That's a much bigger difference.

A standard joystick should be comfortable for everybody to use, not just the special people.

Basically, you're saying "I feel that my slight comfort improvement is more important than somebody else being able to use the thing comfortably at all." Cool story.

Before you jump into the thread and start saying that people are denying other people their personal opinions, maybe you better take a look at the earlier posts. Your accusation that people are just hunting down N64 threads to troll them is completely wrong. Sol Badguy states, in the fourth post, that he didn't understand why there was any dislike of the N64 controller, and a few of us brought up some reasons. Not "you're wrong to like the N64" reasons, but reasons based on simple observation without attempting to overstate things. Certainly nobody said that it was wrong to personally like the N64 controller. I didn't come to DP just to take part in an echo chamber. Opinions (and facts!) can be respected for what they are, and we certainly don't need people coming into threads saying "stop what you were talking about because IDONTLIKEIT" - that doesn't help things at all.

[Aussie2B]

Huh? None of what you're saying makes any sense at all.

I never said that the Dual Shock and 360 controller are "almost the most ergonomic" for me. Far from it. I would rank MANY controllers between the N64 and those. With the 360 controller, I have to choose between a comfortable hold and a decent grip on the stick, because I can't have both (my thumb just doesn't reach far enough unless I hold the controller in an incredibly awkward and uncomfortable way, so I resort to placing the tip of my thumb on the bottom left edge of the stick), and I find the Dual Shock too heavy, with grips that are too stubby, and a stick that's also in an uncomfortable, unnatural spot (so I usually use the original, non-Dual Shock PS1 controller unless a game really benefits from analog).

Like I said, I don't think I'm "special". There is just as much defense of the controller in this topic as criticism, as you point out. I wouldn't say it's rare to come across support of it. It's just a divisive controller, so at most it's 50/50. Maybe it could be considered bad design that it isn't universally loved to quite the same extent as some other controllers, but I know I sure as hell ain't gonna wish it was designed totally differently when it works so well for me personally. It's also worth pointing out that, as a Japanese system, the controller is first and foremost designed for the Japanese, who, in general, have smaller hands than the average American gamer, like myself. Due to the lack of RPGs, the N64 wasn't hugely popular in Japan to begin with, but I have to wonder, for those who did play it, if the complaints about the controller were far fewer over there.

You're completely misreading if you think I'm saying my experience is more important than anybody else's. I merely want to see mutual respect. No controller is going to be comfortable OR uncomfortable for EVERYBODY. As somebody who's been on the Retrogaming Roundtable for many years, I'm just weary of EVERY damn N64 topic degrading into an argument over the controller (or the ever-popular "the N64 has no good games"). If you (I'm using "you" in a general sense here) hate the controller and/or system, that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but don't look at every N64 topic as an opportunity to troll and vent. Your opinions aren't facts, whether you hate the controller/system or love the controller/system. And you (Ed) are entitled to think that this topic isn't as I see it, but you've been gone from the board for long stretches as best as I can tell so you may not be able to recognize the pattern as well as I. Nobody has to listen to me, but I'd like just once to see an N64 topic that isn't bogged down with the same tired old stupid arguments. Can't we, just once, talk about the GAMES?

[Ed Oscuro]

You write the same thing a few times over, so I'll try to restructure this in order to be brief but clear:

First of all, I understand and commiserate with you about repetition and uselessness - it is annoying to have people talk about the same things over and over. You may have noticed that I have had a sabbatical from DP for a while, and this is partially the reason. It's just not worth it to tell the new people that some topics are withered "evergreens" or that some topics are just plain dumb. But, seriously, do YOU play your collection? When I don't like something just based on my opinion of its use, I try not to respond to it. Getting called out for things I said, and especially when I get called out for things I didn't say, is an exception which I think you can understand. I don't try to confuse facts and opinions so that people forget they were answering a simple question with their own humble observations from personal experience. I don't respond to factual evidence by saying "I am super special and these things do not apply to me, so therefore your facts about how they DO work for some people...they are invalid!" Well, guess what - your feeling "uncomfortable" with a controller is trumped by somebody else's feeling pain using another. This is not much of an exaggeration (see Mario Party's Fake Jesus comic above). Obviously, it would be nice to let facts be facts without dismissing individual or group opinions.

You know what else is annoying? Having whole realms of discussion become Officially Disinvited, verboten. Once upon a time it happened to Anthony1 and RGB. So yeah, how about them opinions.

Speaking of things that are bad and which sap brainpower, let's talk about needler trying to get a fellow Forumer kicked out for repros. Let's talk about people who think that ignorance is strength and resent the fact that other people might have their own pet peeves and even, gasp, agendas they would like to pursue...by writing comments in a public forum! [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Gf8NK1WAOc]I am shocked, shocked![/quote]

Look, you got into this thread late, and after your initial claim that I was stirring up shit turned out to be untrue, you tried again with something like 5 variations on that theme in your last post, and you started talking about people, "using 'you' in a general sense here," who aren't actually here.

So then we have your final plea. "Can't we talk about the games for once?" Yes, by all means. You're welcome to comment on my own postings about good and even underrated games on the N64. That would be awesome!

I'd like just once to see an N64 topic that isn't bogged down with the same tired old stupid arguments. Can't we, just once, talk about the GAMES?
Can't we, just once, talk about WHAT PEOPLE WERE TALKING ABOUT? Or what WE WANT to talk about? WITHOUT calls for censorship? Because I'll tell you what - it's a free country. And your attempts to fight about this have only made things uglier and more confused. Even if you had started out by saying "I don't want to talk about the N64 controller, but the games," even that wouldn't have gotten a negative reaction.

I have a piece of advice for you failed censors: If you don't want to read about something, DON'T WRITE ABOUT IT.

At the same time, I will be happy to agree that we should put aside discussion of the N64 controller for this topic, because it does tend to overshadow discussion of the great and groundbreaking games available for this system. See? That wasn't painful or aggressive at all! No reason to make it so, no facts disrespected, no toes trodden on. I even managed not to use the possibly, if inadvertently, sexist phrase "super special snowflake" once! :cool:

[A Black Falcon]

I like the Dreamcast controller quite a bit as well... it's not quite as good as the Saturn 3D Controller or the N64 controller, but still, it's a great gamepad.


That's a nice big lump of "well I never had that problem." Well, good for you. I wish everybody was that lucky.
I still have no idea why you're calling it painful to hold. On the right side it's a quite normal controller, and in the center it's similar to positions like the analog stick on the Xbox/360 controllers, or the d-pad on Sony controllers. As for the left... no need to hold the left side in 95% of titles, it's only for fighting and wrestling games and a few platformers.


I used the N64 controller for years and years. I had that system and used it regularly well into the PS2 era, and I've got a huge box of different style N64 controllers. I think I know which end plugs into the system by now.

So if we split the difference between a modern-style Dual Shock or Xbox controller being "almost the most ergonomic," as far as you're concerned, then it's no big deal for you either way.

Then we get people who find the analog joystick in the N64 an absolute disaster and indeed uncomfortable to use at times, whereas the Xbox sticks seem to work for everybody. That's a much bigger difference.
Absolute disaster? No, it's not usually stated that strongly... that'd be, like, the Atari 5200 or something.


A standard joystick should be comfortable for everybody to use, not just the special people.

Basically, you're saying "I feel that my slight comfort improvement is more important than somebody else being able to use the thing comfortably at all." Cool story.
The idea that only 'special" people actually like the N64 controller is completely ridiculous and absurd. Really, it's mostly Sony fans who hate it, and I think that a lot of them have an agenda...

I know that it's not normal looking, but every controller has its own unique things about it.


Before you jump into the thread and start saying that people are denying other people their personal opinions, maybe you better take a look at the earlier posts. Your accusation that people are just hunting down N64 threads to troll them is completely wrong. Sol Badguy states, in the fourth post, that he didn't understand why there was any dislike of the N64 controller, and a few of us brought up some reasons. Not "you're wrong to like the N64" reasons, but reasons based on simple observation without attempting to overstate things. Certainly nobody said that it was wrong to personally like the N64 controller. I didn't come to DP just to take part in an echo chamber. Opinions (and facts!) can be respected for what they are, and we certainly don't need people coming into threads saying "stop what you were talking about because IDONTLIKEIT" - that doesn't help things at all.

[Ed Oscuro]

I still have no idea why you're calling it painful to hold.
I don't know either, since I keep saying it's the joystick I'm most at odds with. The overall shape is awkward for many people, that's all I've said on that count.

The idea that only 'special" people actually like the N64 controller is completely ridiculous and absurd. Really, it's mostly Sony fans who hate it, and I think that a lot of them have an agenda...
Again with the talking to people who aren't in the room. I assure you that you're not talking to one of these hateful agenda-driven people. I think only the arrival of $2.99 PSX games saw me getting a bigger PSX library than N64 (I haven't actually got any numbers on which system I have more games for in total, or which one I have more games I enjoy for), and only the strange framerate-induced headaches keep me away from playing the N64 oftener (but, as I stated earlier, I have a SECRET PLAN to overcome this, so yeah, it's not for lack of love). I also think we all know that if we went out and had random people hold both the N64 joystick and a Dual Shock, they would find the Dual Shock much more intuitive to use and easy to securely hold while easily manipulating the joysticks, all pretty good points. Saying "mostly Sony fans" (whoops I started typing "Microsoft" there) like it is pretty silly when even Nintendo went over to a more comfortable joystick and placement more like the Hori and in turn more like the Dual Shock; in turn Microsoft copied that rather closely. So did a whole bunch of third-party joystick manufacturers...in fact, we were talking about one of these manufacturers earlier - Hori, who made the Dual Shock-inspired N64 controller with a more comfortably sited stick. I still won't rave about the texturing of the GameCube and Hori controllers' joysticks, but Baby steps towards honesty, here. We'll get there eventually.

I wonder if some of this disagreement is due to differences in holding various sticks. I can't find my Hori N64 controller at the moment, but I compared a bunch:

N64: Very small surface area. Holding the controller so that you can press the left shoulder at any time, and quickly press either the d-pad or the main joystick, requires holding the left wing, rather like the Dual Shock in practice. I know there is a "grasp the center" method, but this seems wrong because then you give up using the L button at any time. However, I find that I have to stretch my thumb a good ways out to get to the center joystick. Having gotten there, I also find my thumb tends to slide off the center joystick nub - especially with up-left or down-right directional inputs. This is why I talk about pain from putting your fingers up against that thin hard disk, and this is why people play Mario party by placing the joystick against the center of their palms.

Dual Shock: The joysticks are much closer to the hand so that you do not have to stretch the thumb towards them, and it takes less exertion to move them in circles. The Dual Shock joysticks also have a wide and pleasantly textured surface that allows you to keep a grip more easily. I honestly have trouble understanding how anybody, unless they get hand cramps, can find the "thumb close to fist" concept more awkward.

Dreamcast: The stick is very close to the d-pad, unlike the N64, so you do not lose a lot of time switching back and forth, so the d-pad can be used for more timing-important game functions. It's still a bit small and unergonomically blocky, though, seemingly more than the N64's d-pad, but like the Hori stick's smallness, what might seem like a demerit actually seems like a good thing: Pressing firmly down, it's easier to get feedback about which direction you're pushing the d-pad in; it's got more downwards travel, and the d-pad shape is actually quite comfortable. But what most stands out here is that once again the joystick is close to the grip.

GameCube: Like all the other controllers, the joystick is again close to the grip. However the joystick texture is still not very good, and it's still thin and doesn't have much of a lip. Unfortunately, there was some kind of oily substance on the top of mine...excuse me, I'm going to go grab a cloth to wipe it down now, ugh. First, though, I should mention that having the stick closer to the grip did alleviate a lot of the trouble of the N64's joystick design and placement. Now it's easier to readjust your grip on the stick while keeping a firm grip on the left handle. The joystick's top surface is also wider, so slipping is still slightly less likely than with the N64.

If anybody says "I use the N64 joystick by holding the center column and I can put my thumb wherever I like!" I WILL LAUGH AT YOU, because your grip style cedes one whole button and probably also requires you remove your hand from the central column to even get to the d-pad...and that assumes a left-handed joystick grip; the right-handed middle section grip would be even clumsier and less useful. Yeah, this controller isn't very leftie-friendly either, from what I can tell.

[SOL BADGUY]

I was in a retro store once, and the only reason I heard some guys complaint about it, was because of how weird it was shaped. It wasnt painful to them, they just didnt like how it looked.

[Ed Oscuro]

I was in a retro store once, and the only reason I heard some guys complaint about it, was because of how weird it was shaped. It wasnt painful to them, they just didnt like how it looked.
cool story, srsly

By the way, would you guys do a little experiment:

1.) Make a fist
2.) See where your thumb lies (if you closed your fist with your thumb inside, I will laugh at you again, because you're going to break your thumb punching somebody that way)
3.) Observation: Thumb closer to fist = good.
4.) Observation: Thumb able to move up and down over fist = good.

Forcing your thumb away from your fist, and also out at an angle, gives you less leverage and more distance to travel (again, assuming you are gripping the left wing of the controller and not the center; if you grip the center, see my post above). This might not be a problem for people with quite large hands or thick thumb pads, admittedly.

But yeah I admit the real reason is that the N64 controller looks too cool. (It does.)

[SOL BADGUY]

If you think about it, Nintendo has always made weird controllers.

[Koa Zo]

best:
Sin & Punishment
Bangaioh

[Aussie2B]

Look, you got into this thread late, and after your initial claim that I was stirring up shit turned out to be untrue, you tried again with something like 5 variations on that theme in your last post, and you started talking about people, "using 'you' in a general sense here," who aren't actually here.

I'm not really interested in taking this any further since, as you said, the more I respond to this, the more I'm taking the discussion away from where I'd like it to be. But I do want to point out that my initial reply to this topic directly followed a post of yours by mere coincidence. It was never intended as a direct reply to you or an attempt to call you out on anything. If we're going to name names, it was understatement who got got the ball rolling in terms of turning this into yet another topic for N64 system/controller haters to vent and troll. My response was simply a commentary on the general direction that the topic was going in, not an issue with any single person, and an expression of my frustration over how just about every N64 topic on this board goes.

Finally, FYI, if you're stretching your thumb from the left prong to the stick or otherwise trying to access every button, you're using it wrong. This isn't an opinion; it's fact. Nintendo made it very clear back then what the purposes of the controller were and how it should be used, and every game's manual clearly showed in pictures how to hold the controller for that specific game (sometimes with multiple options). The N64 controller is all about customizability, both for the developer and the player. You are NEVER intended to access every button at once. Thinking you need to access everything at once and complaining about how the controller feels as you do so is the equivalent of jamming on the shoulder buttons of a SNES controller in a game that doesn't use them and getting mad that nothing happens. The L button and the Z trigger are typically equivalents in N64 games (if the L button is assigned any function at all; many developers didn't want to incorporate the left prong in their control schemes). The only time you should access both the L button and Z trigger is if you're using a control scheme that uses the left and center prongs (I think some FPS do this, but overall it's pretty rare), in which case the right prong and its buttons is unneeded.

It amazes me that after all these years so many gamers STILL don't understand how to use the N64 controller. Is it really that confusing? I immediately knew how to hold the controller when I tried out Super Mario 64 on the store displays in September 1996. Granted, I was getting Nintendo Power and read about the system, so I probably had a slight advantage. Either way, unused buttons weren't some foreign concept in gaming prior to the N64, so I don't know why gamers seem to think that they need to access all at any given moment. Hell, even if you tried, wouldn't you test out the buttons and quickly learn that some buttons do nothing or do the same thing as another? Wouldn't you then adjust your grip to something that would feel better? I generally don't like the feel of resting my index fingers on shoulder buttons, so one of the first things I do with games on controllers that have them is see what, if anything, the shoulder buttons do, and if they do nothing or something I'll rarely use, I immediately move my fingers off of them and rest my fingers below.

Err... I kinda failed there at keeping this short and nipping this discussion in the bud, but, yeah, this is the last I'm going to talk about the N64 controller in this topic. Some people like it, some people hate it, and some people are perpetually confused by it. At the end of the day, who cares. The controller wouldn't matter a hoot if there were no good games to play.

[wiggyx]

That's a nice big lump of "well I never had that problem." Well, good for you. I wish everybody was that lucky.

I think the N64 controller has always been either a love it or hate it device. I loved it at the time, but it sure does feel really weird today :/

[understatement]

Aussie2B I don't think you understand what Ed was trying to say but I'll let him explain if I'm right and he wants to again.

I will say that I only answered with my opinion and I stick by it that I find all N64 games the worst with the original controller and can only play games on it with the Hori mini pad, I asked for no rebuttal and didn't demonize the N64 controller only stated what I find wrong with it, the same can be said about Ed. After that all the fans of the controller start insisting that they can't understand how someone can feel this way, to which would seem more explaining would be necessary and that's what's throwing this off.

[A Black Falcon]

N64: Very small surface area. Holding the controller so that you can press the left shoulder at any time, and quickly press either the d-pad or the main joystick, requires holding the left wing, rather like the Dual Shock in practice. I know there is a "grasp the center" method, but this seems wrong because then you give up using the L button at any time. However, I find that I have to stretch my thumb a good ways out to get to the center joystick. Having gotten there, I also find my thumb tends to slide off the center joystick nub - especially with up-left or down-right directional inputs. This is why I talk about pain from putting your fingers up against that thin hard disk, and this is why people play Mario party by placing the joystick against the center of their palms.


So ytou're holding the controller incorrectly, and then complain that the controller is uncomfortable to hold when you use it wrong? That's just absurd, and needless to say is a fundamentally flawed argument.

But yeah, of course it is uncomfortable when used incorrectly! Hold the controller correctly, by holding the center with your left hand and the right with your right hand, and most of your complaints will disappear. Your idea that you actually need to use the d-pad or L button much is bizarre, because there are no N64 games that require you to frequently use those buttons and the analog stick and Z button at the same time, or at least there aren't any that I have played, and I own over 150 N64 games. There are a handful of gmaes that use the dpad or L button for some rarely-used function like turning on or off the map in Zelda OoT, but that's about it.

Seriously, your entire argument is pretty much completely negated by the fact htat you're basing it all on holding the controller incorrectly. Have you ever opened an N64 game manual, and looked at the pictures of how you're supposed to hold the controller? It's left and right for dpad games, center and right for analog stick games. There is no other sane way to hold the N64 controller. I've seen people make this "I hold it on the left and then reach over uncomfortably to the center stick" argument before, though I've never seen someone in real life who did something so bizarre as that while holding an N64 controller, and generally assume that it's something said, again, mostly by Sony fans wanting to bash the N64 controller.

Try holding the controller correctly next time. Maybe read an N64 manual before playing the game and look at the pictures on the third page. They show you how to hold it. And no, it is NOT complicated. As I said, I've never seen even one person in real life hold the controller wrong. It should take about five seconds to figure out how it's correctly held. Now maybe two-prong controllers can be figured out even faster than that, but I don't think that a couple of additional seconds means anything whatsoever, and would never agree if someone said that the N64 controller was too complicated or something. It isn't. It's pretty simple, really, and is not hard to figure out. I knew how to hold it from the first time I saw one in person, and I'm sure I was not the only one.


Aussie2B I don't think you understand what Ed was trying to say but I'll let him explain if I'm right and he wants to again.

I will say that I only answered with my opinion and I stick by it that I find all N64 games the worst with the original controller and can only play games on it with the Hori mini pad, I asked for no rebuttal and didn't demonize the N64 controller only stated what I find wrong with it, the same can be said about Ed. After that all the fans of the controller start insisting that they can't understand how someone can feel this way, to which would seem more explaining would be necessary and that's what's throwing this off.
No, what he's saying is very clear: he's complaining about the controller because he's holding it wrong and then griping about that. The N64 controller is not designed so that you can use both the analog stick and d-pad at the same time, it's an either/or design. And for games from that time, that's just fine.

(As for the Dreamcast, it needed that d-pad next to the analog stick because they removed two of the face buttons from the superior Saturn 3D Controller when making it, and with the face buttons, say, for movement in a FPS, that leaves nothing for the other functions which on the N64 would go on the A and B buttons. So, dpad.)

[YoshiM]

I too never ever understood the hate the N64 controller. By far for me in that generation it was the most comfortable and versatile controller for what the system was geared towards: 3D games. Hold the center prong like a pistol, rest your thumb on top-what more is there? I tolerate my PS3's controllers as it still feels awkward to extend my thumbs for the two sticks, but then again I have small hands (dang Carnie blood in me).

My best and worst? The N64 is one of my fave systems, so it ranks up there with picking one of your kids as your favorite. I have to ponder this.

[CelticJobber]

Best:

5. WWF Wrestlemania 2000
4. WCW/nWo Revenge
3. Perfect Dark
2. WWF No Mercy
1. Zelda: OoT

Honorable Mentions:

Donkey Kong 64
Wave Race
1080 Snowboarding
San Francisco Rush
Mortal Kombat 4
Zelda: Majora's Mask
Conker's Bad Fur Day
Bio Freaks

Worst:
Hey You, Pikachu!
Pokemon Snap!

[Daltone]

Hold the center prong like a pistol, rest your thumb on top-what more is there?


No, what he's saying is very clear: he's complaining about the controller because he's holding it wrong and then griping about that. The N64 controller is not designed so that you can use both the analog stick and d-pad at the same time, it's an either/or design. And for games from that time, that's just fine.

As far as I am aware - this is "wrong":

http://beatthegame.net/n64hand1.jpg

It just looks awkward. I've never seen anyone hold one like this (not my hands by the way..)

This, on the other hand...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/N64-Controller-in-Hand.jpg

Is how everyone has ever met has held one (for 95% of games where you don't need the D-Pad).

I agree that the analogue stick is crap. I don't think that it is the best laid out controller ever. It is ok. Not bad. The GC controller, on the other hand, is a nightmare!

[The Adventurer]

The GC controller, on the other hand, is a nightmare!

What? The GCN controller is the most comfortable controller ever created by man or god.

Edit: also who in their right mind would hold the N64 controller as shown in pic 1? How would you press the Z Trigger?

[Daltone]

What? The GCN controller is the most comfortable controller ever created by man or god.

Edit: also who in their right mind would hold the N64 controller as shown in pic 1? How would you press the Z Trigger?

I know lots of people like the GC* conroller but I hate the damn thing. It's always felt awkward to me, even after hours of use. Even the fatty Xbox controller and the Jaguar "WTF is this?" felt more comfortable.


* (side note - why is it always GCN? I get "GC" as Game Cube. "N" is Nintendo? So it is "Game Cube Nintendo"? Surely NGC would make more sense. Or am I miles off?)

[o.pwuaioc]

* (side note - why is it always GCN? I get "GC" as Game Cube. "N" is Nintendo? So it is "Game Cube Nintendo"? Surely NGC would make more sense. Or am I miles off?)

This is Nintendo's doing, for whatever reason. http://www.nintendo.com/consumer/systems/nintendogamecube/trouble_sound.jsp

"Are you using any accessories that didn't come with your GCN? Unlicensed products are not fully compatible and may not work correctly."

Also, I knew of folks who used the N64 controller the first way. They absolutely sucked at anything competitive (like Mario Kart 64), but alas, I couldn't break them of the habit.

[understatement]

Well, I could be wrong then if he's holding it as the first picture shows.

With the second picture, if you’re able to maintain that hand posture for prolonged periods of time more power to you. As for me I don’t like the feeling of developing carpal tunnel in my left hand so I position my wrists at about the same angle from each other and if you do that you get the cater-cornered angle I was talking about.

*Edit* I meant right hand.

[Daltone]

With the second picture, if you’re able to maintain that hand posture for prolonged periods of time more power to you. As for me I don’t like the feeling of developing carpal tunnel in my left hand so I position my wrists at about the same angle from each other and if you do that you get the cater-cornered angle I was talking about.

I think I tend to bring the N64 controller closer to me and point the face buttons more towards may chest than I would with, say, a Playstation controller. That bends my wrists "out" away from the controller. Anyway! Yeah, it's ok.

o.pwuaioc - thanks for that. I've always sort of wondered.

[SOL BADGUY]

Im glad Daltone posted those pictures if anyone held the controller like that and complaining.

[Ed Oscuro]

Daltone, the hands in your first screenshot belong to sikraiken, one of the best players at Shmups Forum, if that means anything.

Here's where it originally came from:
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22708

The basic problem with the "correct" control layout is that you don't get access to the left shoulder and moving to the d-pad requires moving your whole grip awkwardly (although I bet sik could do it on account of his extra long thumb), whereas the "wrong" grip method lets you just slide your thumb over - like every other modern controller.

Getting to the Z-trigger with that control method isn't any problem. I can reach it easily with either index finger.

Nope, I've never had any problems with carpal tunnel syndrome. It is a bit tiring compared to the usual style, but that just makes for stronger hands. On the plus side I gain a bit in speed because I'm not doing strange things to get to all the controls. Of course, none of this would be an issue if they didn't create a left handle you weren't supposed to use, and if they grouped the left-hand-side controls more closely to each other (and the left joystick a bit closer to the left grip handle), which would have been the sane thing to do.

[The Adventurer]

Yeah, I do hold the controller as shown in the picture, because I like to be able to reach all the buttons.
Why? Any game that doesn't use the control pad doesn't need the L button. That's what the Z trigger is, a L button replacement when you're using the control stick.



p.s. there's a handle on the left side of the controller, why should Nintendo have made it so people wouldn't be able to use it? I had my PlayStation only slightly before the N64, but that didn't influence my thinking. The N64 controller just looks like it's meant to be held with both hands on the wings.

Yeah, when the game is designed to be played with that configuration. The middle bit is also a handle. So you're not using a handle either way.

[SOL BADGUY]

People just need to shut the fuck up about this god damn thing.

[Ed Oscuro]

@ Adventurer: Pull your head out and see that any controller which has a button "just for show" is a flawed design. This could've easily been remedied, even while keeping the basic controller design.

People just need to shut the fuck up about this god damn thing.
Didn't I already say what you can do when you don't like a topic? Yeah, I'm going to just start reporting posts like this. If nobody wants to discuss something, the topic will die right away.

[The Adventurer]

Pull your head out and see that any controller which has a button "just for show" is a flawed design. This could've easily been remedied, even while keeping the basic controller design.

Its not 'just for show' the L button is used when the Control Pad is used. Granted isn't very often, I know I used it to play Killer Instinct.

[Gameguy]

It's still a stupid design, how many other controllers is it even possible to hold incorrectly by mistake? For anyone coming off the SNES you'd assume you put your hand so you'd have access to the D-pad and left trigger, I can't imagine anyone just seeing the N64 at launch and automatically knowing to ignore the entire left side of the controller. It's just an awkward design for a controller and I'm glad nothing similar was used for any other console.

[A Black Falcon]

Yeah, those pictures are correct. I also have never seen anyone who held it like that upper picture; I know some people on the internet claim to, but still can't quite believe that anyone would actually, seriously, hold it in such a bizarre way... why in the world would anyone even THINK of doing that for more than a couple of seconds? It's near-impossible to believe. The second picture is how it's used.


The basic problem with the "correct" control layout is that you don't get access to the left shoulder and moving to the d-pad
You can stop right there, as I and anyone else who's actually used the N64 would know, you virtually never have to do this. So what you are talking about is entirely irrelevant.


Getting to the Z-trigger with that control method isn't any problem. I can reach it easily with either index finger.
Maybe, but very uncomfortably. The Z button is called a "trigger" button for a reason -- you use it like a trigger, with your finger wrapped around the button. Some bizarre holding scheme with you holdung the side and reaching over to the center is NOT how it's intended, and if it's uncomfortable who cares? You do not hold the controller that way. It's an easy controller to figure out how to use. Very simple and uncomplicated. Left and right for dpad games, center and right for analog games. Easy as that.


Nope, I've never had any problems with carpal tunnel syndrome. It is a bit tiring compared to the usual style, but that just makes for stronger hands. On the plus side I gain a bit in speed because I'm not doing strange things to get to all the controls.
You don't gain any speed whatsoever because games do not have you use both the dpad and analog stick at the same time, ever, in over 99% of titles on the platform. You gain absolutely nothing, and lose a lot in comfort and ease of use.


Of course, none of this would be an issue if they didn't create a left handle you weren't supposed to use, and if they grouped the left-hand-side controls more closely to each other (and the left joystick a bit closer to the left grip handle), which would have been the sane thing to do.
What they did was design the best layout ever for a controller with both an analog stick and d-pad on it. On most controllers one or the other is a little more uncomfortable to use, like how you have to uncomfortably angle your thumbs down to use the analog sticks on Sony controllers. On the N64, though, by having you actually hold a different thing for each control method, both are perfectly comfortable, in ways that are impossible on standard two-prong controllers. It was a brilliant design, and works perfectly. And that's an important part of why the controller still might be my favorite: no discomfort from having to reach to a thing that's not in the right place!

And in case you aren't clear, the left handle is there for 2d games or 3d games that use the d-pad. You know, like all of the fighting and wrestling games, and some platformers like Kirby as well. Puzzle games are also often better with the d-pad. The idea was to have a familiar controller for 2d games, and also a good controller for 3d games, both in one. What ended up happening was that almost all games were 3d, so the 2d side ended up little-used, but how could Nintendo have known that before the system released?


@ Adventurer: Pull your head out and see that any controller which has a button "just for show" is a flawed design. This could've easily been remedied, even while keeping the basic controller design.
The N64 controller doesn't have any buttons that are there just for show. 2d-control games use L instead of Z for the left side button, after all.


It's still a stupid design, how many other controllers is it even possible to hold incorrectly by mistake? For anyone coming off the SNES you'd assume you put your hand so you'd have access to the D-pad and left trigger, I can't imagine anyone just seeing the N64 at launch and automatically knowing to ignore the entire left side of the controller. It's just an awkward design for a controller and I'm glad nothing similar was used for any other console.
It's a great design, and was successful in its time; note how some other early analog controllers, like the 3DO M2's prototype controller or the analog Nuon pad, are N64 clone pads. N64 clone controllers were also very common in handheld Famiclones.

It is true that after that generation Sony's awful design won out, but seriously, the N64 controller is not that hard to learn, and bashing it just because it takes a couple of seconds to figure out is silly. What, as if someone who doesn't know would find the PS3 or 360 controllers approachable either, with so many buttons and sticks on them? Hah!

[Ed Oscuro]

I for one am prepared to defend a controller design that doesn't make all its buttons accessible...TO THE DEATH. Because what do we use these things for again?

Just a few minor changes could've pleased both groups...the people who like maximum control on the one hand, and the people who play RPGs and two-button action games on the other. Nobody's comfort had to be sacrificed.

p.s. In case it's gone over your head, "legitimate / constructive criticsm" is not the same thing as "this is the worst thing ever," so don't get too excited.

[understatement]

Nope, I've never had any problems with carpal tunnel syndrome. It is a bit tiring compared to the usual style, but that just makes for stronger hands. On the plus side I gain a bit in speed because I'm not doing strange things to get to all the controls. Of course, none of this would be an issue if they didn't create a left handle you weren't supposed to use, and if they grouped the left-hand-side controls more closely to each other (and the left joystick a bit closer to the left grip handle), which would have been the sane thing to do.

Well yea, you wouldn’t have that problem because both of those grips are symmetrical and don’t force you to bend the wrists much while holding the controller. Yea, if it was designed that way from the start I’d have no complaints about it.

[SOL BADGUY]

Lets all look back at the title, and then discuss that.

[Gameguy]

Lets all look back at the title, and then discuss that.
The title should be edited to discuss the controller. Seriously, there have to be a dozen threads asking about the best or worst N64 games. The question has been asked so often nobody cares about it anymore. I've only bothered looking up a few of those threads but I'm sure there's more.

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?159924-What-are-the-best-N64-games
http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?38818-What-is-the-worst-game-for-the-Nintendo-64
http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?114086-Top-50-and-Bottom-25-Nintendo-64-games-list

[Ed Oscuro]

I don't want to toot my own horn here, but I WAS the only person who mentioned anything off the beaten path. And then that got totally sidetracked by other peoples' questions and attempted rebuttals of my position RE the controller. Yeah, topics evolve. I am sorry for the tone the thread has taken but we don't need any censorship. At the same time I have to admit we actually did get some things figured out about the design. The thread wasn't entirely wasted.

If you want to talk about only what you want to talk about, get a blog.

[The Adventurer]

I for one am prepared to defend a controller design that doesn't make all its buttons accessible...TO THE DEATH. Because what do we use these things for again?

.

Because every game ever made has always made use of every single button available on its controller every time at all times.

[Ed Oscuro]

See my post above. That's not my argument or even a reasonable way of trying to twist it.