Exposing VGA (Video Game Grading Authority)

[sloan]

This might literally be the dumbest anti-VGA argument I have ever read. You could make this same exact claim about any collectible item on the planet. What's to stop people from mass producing non-sealed but valuable games? What's to stop people from reproducing rare baseball cards or rare comics? The reality is that it's not cheap to pull together the necessary materials to duplicate any pop culture item, let alone the expertise to do so without getting caught. Could people reproduce old and valuable video games? Sure. Will the few people with the expertise and money to do so waste their time and risk prison time and civil litigation to do so? Very, very unlikely.

Read my post you commented on. I said nothing about people reproducing or copying old and valuable video games. I did say that a person could just put a slab of wood inside a nicely printed copy of a box, shrink-seal it, and pass it off as the real thing. It would be far too easy for someone to do, and ebay buyers laying down serious smack would be easily duped. Humor me and tell me it could not be done.

[Bojay1997]

Read my post you commented on. I said nothing about people reproducing or copying old and valuable video games. I did say that a person could just put a slab of wood inside a nicely printed copy of a box, shrink-seal it, and pass it off as the real thing. It would be far too easy for someone to do, and ebay buyers laying down serious smack would be easily duped. Humor me and tell me it could not be done.

Virtually anything can be done. The question is whether or not it's likely to happen. There are much easier and more financially lucrative ways to defraud people unfortunately. Going to all the trouble of printing up boxes, getting them sealed in a convincing manner and doing it all without getting caught is pretty hard to do given how much knowledge there is out there about ways to determine the authenticity of genuine sealed games. So yes, it could be done, but the reality is that it's not going to be done, at least not in any way that rocks the market and certainly not in a way that undermines the popularity of VGA with that small group of collectors that trust and rely on it.

[Tanooki]

And who's to say myself and a number of like minded individuals haven't already pooled our resources to buy this equipment, haven't already used the printing abilities of a company who one of those likeminded individuals work for, to print new boxes, haven't both dispersed some unslabbed to the sealed collecting community as well as already sent and received back some that have been 'authenticated' by VGA and haven't dispersed them to the slab collecting community?

Like I said, it's very easy.

Smells like bullshit, but if you for the sake of argument can actually prove you did commit this level of accurate fraud on VGA there's a long line of people who would love to see this documented in images, text, and probably video too pointing out the who, what, when, where, why and how of your deceit.

I'm very curious because if this isn't just all theory and this could be done and VGA and sealed collectors are being actively conned by your mystery group this would have one hell of a ripple effect through the sealed and grading community at large.

So in the wise words of whoever the hell it was -- put up or shut up. :)

[badinsults]

This might literally be the dumbest anti-VGA argument I have ever read. You could make this same exact claim about any collectible item on the planet. What's to stop people from mass producing non-sealed but valuable games? What's to stop people from reproducing rare baseball cards or rare comics? The reality is that it's not cheap to pull together the necessary materials to duplicate any pop culture item, let alone the expertise to do so without getting caught. Could people reproduce old and valuable video games? Sure. Will the few people with the expertise and money to do so waste their time and risk prison time and civil litigation to do so? Very, very unlikely.

That is a silly statement. There are huge (http://www.gamereproductions.com/) operations (http://www.nesreproductions.com/) that make bootleg games, and they seem legitimate enough to the collecting community to still exist after many years. The reason you don't see a lot of bootlegs of regular releases is simply because it isn't lucrative enough, so they stick with making carts of fan translated games (and believe me, the fan translation community is pretty pissed about it). But make no bones about it, if a game is valuable enough, people will start making bootlegs. For instance, Earthbound (http://earthboundcentral.com/2012/03/counterfeit-earthbound-carts-exist/), Terranigma (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=terranigma&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR1.TRC0&_nkw=terranigma+ntsc&_sacat=0), and Stadium Events (http://www.timewalkgames.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=188). Sure some of these reproduction makers "make some changes" so that they can be identified as being a reproduction (oh, how noble), but surely there are less scrupulous people out there.

Since VGA is such a niche market at the moment, there is limited potential for making money producing bootlegs. If it did become mainstream enough, you can bet people will get the equipment necessary to make forgeries. It will be ugly.

[Bojay1997]

That is a silly statement. There are huge (http://www.gamereproductions.com/) operations (http://www.nesreproductions.com/) that make bootleg games, and they seem legitimate enough to the collecting community to still exist after many years. The reason you don't see a lot of bootlegs of regular releases is simply because it isn't lucrative enough, so they stick with making carts of fan translated games (and believe me, the fan translation community is pretty pissed about it). But make no bones about it, if a game is valuable enough, people will start making bootlegs. For instance, Earthbound (http://earthboundcentral.com/2012/03/counterfeit-earthbound-carts-exist/), Terranigma (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=terranigma&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR1.TRC0&_nkw=terranigma+ntsc&_sacat=0), and Stadium Events (http://www.timewalkgames.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=188). Sure some of these reproduction makers "make some changes" so that they can be identified as being a reproduction (oh, how noble), but surely there are less scrupulous people out there.

Since VGA is such a niche market at the moment, there is limited potential for making money producing bootlegs. If it did become mainstream enough, you can bet people will get the equipment necessary to make forgeries. It will be ugly.

I would hardly call either of the sites you linked to "huge operations". They are just hobbyists that make repros available to people who want to play them on something resembling the original format. I've purchased many repros over the years of unreleased games and I have yet to see one that approximates every or even most aspects of a legitimate factory produced game. Similarly, I've seen plenty of bootleg Nintendo DS and Gameboy games and Neo Geo games and PC Engine games. There are always easy ways to tell they aren't legit and many of those were produced with the intent to defraud buyers. Like I said, anything is technically possible, but the time, money and risk involved in creating reproductions of valuable factory sealed games with the intent to defraud makes it very unlikely that anyone is going to do so in a manner that has any impact on the marketplace. Frankly, the financial incentive has been there for at least the last few years with sealed games going for thousands in some cases and some VGA copies going for even more. In any event, if really convincing bootlegs do start infiltrating in, it makes the skills of companies like VGA which have now seen thousands of examples of legitimate factory sealed games even more valuable.

It's really pretty sad that members of this community who have spent so many years collecting are so eager to see a handful of collectors who have a different focus than they do fail so badly that they would advocate introducing fraud and uncertainty into the supply of games out there. It reminds me of this wealthy kid I knew growing up who had an amazing room full of toys, but as soon as one of his friends got even a single thing he didn't own, he would throw a tantrum and start destroying his own toys because he just couldn't handle it. Maybe it's time for everyone to grow up and celebrate the fact that there are so many different collectors out there collecting specific kinds of games that there is plenty of room for everyone and a good likelihood that many years from now, at least a few copies of everything will be preserved somewhere rather than lost forever.

[theclaw]

A great deal of the baseball card crash had to do with forged cards, altered cards (Keith Olbermann, who knows more about baseball and baseball cards than most people, has outright accused ex-LA Kings owner Bruce McNall of cutting the edges of the Honus Wagner card he used to own in order to increase its worth), and forged signatures. For anyone to say that people with the knowhow won't do it is naive.

But, hey, VGA supporters known about being naive and gullible, right?

Let's see it then. A game forged or resealed by VGA, or a resealed game they knowingly graded.

[badinsults]

I would hardly call either of the sites you linked to "huge operations". They are just hobbyists that make repros available to people who want to play them on something resembling the original format. I've purchased many repros over the years of unreleased games and I have yet to see one that approximates every or even most aspects of a legitimate factory produced game. Similarly, I've seen plenty of bootleg Nintendo DS and Gameboy games and Neo Geo games and PC Engine games. There are always easy ways to tell they aren't legit and many of those were produced with the intent to defraud buyers. Like I said, anything is technically possible, but the time, money and risk involved in creating reproductions of valuable factory sealed games with the intent to defraud makes it very unlikely that anyone is going to do so in a manner that has any impact on the marketplace. Frankly, the financial incentive has been there for at least the last few years with sealed games going for thousands in some cases and some VGA copies going for even more. In any event, if really convincing bootlegs do start infiltrating in, it makes the skills of companies like VGA which have now seen thousands of examples of legitimate factory sealed games even more valuable.

It's really pretty sad that members of this community who have spent so many years collecting are so eager to see a handful of collectors who have a different focus than they do fail so badly that they would advocate introducing fraud and uncertainty into the supply of games out there. It reminds me of this wealthy kid I knew growing up who had an amazing room full of toys, but as soon as one of his friends got even a single thing he didn't own, he would throw a tantrum and start destroying his own toys because he just couldn't handle it. Maybe it's time for everyone to grow up and celebrate the fact that there are so many different collectors out there collecting specific kinds of games that there is plenty of room for everyone and a good likelihood that many years from now, at least a few copies of everything will be preserved somewhere rather than lost forever.

1) Those sites I linked are businesses, going beyond making a simple reproduction cart. For instance, that Stadium Events reproduction comes with box and manual, to simulate every aspect of the real thing. Now, you might justify it by saying "well it is too expensive to get the real thing, but I still want it". A bootleg is a bootleg, and I gave examples of some games that are expensive but not really that rare (Earthbound and Terranigma). People are making these bootlegs to make money, not out of some altruistic contribution to the community. And there is a large brood of collectors who lap it up.

2) You say that there is no way that people are going to make bootlegs to defraud the collecting community, then give examples of systems where it has happened. Sure, an experienced collector may be able to sort through the bootlegs, but if you look at the Earthbound link I gave, you pretty much have to open the cart to be able to find out. My brother has bought bootleg GBA games off Ebay before, and they look pretty legit until you open them (or try playing them). Just now, I looked at the NA collecting forum, and on the front page, there were two threads asking about how to detect bootlegs, so to say that this isn't a legitimate concern is not true.

3) As I said earlier in this thread, I see little evidence that VGA actually increases the value of most sealed games, which is why no one has tried fooling the system. As soon as it is lucrative, I guarantee people will try.

4) I don't think I have ever claimed to be a video game collector. Aside from purchasing some prototypes and Minecraft, I actually haven't bought anything gaming related in the past two years. I honestly do not want to own vast quantities of games, as my lifestyle prohibits the mass collection of things.

5) Though I am not a collector, I do enjoy seeing people do interesting things with their collection. That is why I love Dangerboy's website and video series. He has one of the largest video game collections of anybody, yet he documents it for preservation purposes, and share his collection with everyone.

6) Most people who are collecting things do it for the sake of collecting. There is usually nothing wrong with that, except that you see these forums degenerating into a mentality of "gotta catch em all", and one-upmanship. Is there any practical reason why anyone should pay thousands of dollars for a game? There is one reason: competition. This is where VGA fits in. It gives people the satisfaction of being able to put a score there collection. "Hey my sealed game has a score of 80". "Well MINE has a score of 85+!" What do these scores mean? Who knows? They are for all intents and purposes arbitrary, and from what I understand are based on the quality of the shrink wrap. There is something wrong with the collecting community when that is the thing that people care about.

Frankly, I think you have forgotten the original raison d'être of Digital Press. It was a collective of gamers and collectors who were interested in uncovering and playing old games, and sharing. There were massive efforts by a lot of people to document games for all the game systems, which we continue to benefit from to this day. People were interested in the thrill of the hunt, and collecting information not only on the physical object that is a game cart, but also the actual game. I was attracted to DP because of this information dissemination. You go to a place like Nintendo Age, and all people care about is how much they can buy or sell their games for, rarity, and the condition of the game. I used to post my articles there, including an extensive article on the Super Starfox Weekend cart, and nobody cared (http://www.nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=24&threadid=25354). We can all lament that Digital Press is now a dead site (and I have), but that doesn't mean I will accept the fact that the collecting community is now a different place. VGA is just another reason not to look back.

[tom]

Some sellers on eBay UK and eBay DE selling ( should i say 'trying to sell') VGA graded games. So do they send them off to the USA company? Are they a worldwide operation? I mean they're on eBay for months now, so obviously they're not selling. Why do they bother, I'm baffled.
Second, this VGA grading looks so unprofessional, I mean a plastic box with a sticker ?

[wiggyx]

Some sellers on eBay UK and eBay DE selling ( should i say 'trying to sell') VGA graded games. So do they send them off to the USA company? Are they a worldwide operation? I mean they're on eBay for months now, so obviously they're not selling. Why do they bother, I'm baffled.
Second, this VGA grading looks so unprofessional, I mean a plastic box with a sticker ?

That's pretty standard as far as graded collectibles go, along with some sort of documentation.

[theclaw]

Some sellers on eBay UK and eBay DE selling ( should i say 'trying to sell') VGA graded games. So do they send them off to the USA company? Are they a worldwide operation? I mean they're on eBay for months now, so obviously they're not selling. Why do they bother, I'm baffled.
Second, this VGA grading looks so unprofessional, I mean a plastic box with a sticker ?

Some people are willing to send items to USA for grading.

[InboRenge]

What a thread. It's sad seeing some of the more well known collectors from back in the stone age of collecting (I was around then too) railing against the legitimization of game collecting. Face it, you won't be getting a Stadium Events CIB for $200 anymore. "Maybe if I complain about VGA hard enough I'll be able to afford games again!". Face it, you've been left behind in the dust. Either get a grown-up job that allows you to pay the current market value for the items you want, or collect something that's more within your income range. The only thing more pathetic are the individuals who think games are sentient beings with souls that want to be played like in some shitty Disney movie.

[wiggyx]

What a thread. It's sad seeing some of the more well known collectors from back in the stone age of collecting (I was around then too) railing against the legitimization of game collecting. Face it, you won't be getting a Stadium Events CIB for $200 anymore. "Maybe if I complain about VGA hard enough I'll be able to afford games again!". Face it, you've been left behind in the dust. Either get a grown-up job that allows you to pay the current market value for the items you want, or collect something that's more within your income range. The only thing more pathetic are the individuals who think games are sentient beings with souls that want to be played like in some shitty Disney movie.

I really don't think that is the prevailing argument here.

Also, being able to afford something and not liking the asking/going price are separate things. Some jerk could try and sell me a minty '89 Pontiac Sunfire for 20K and my decision about the purchase would have just about nothing to do with my ability to afford it or not. I feel the same way about $250 loose copies of Earthbound. It's not worth that to me. Not by a longshot. I can most definitely afford to buy a copy at that price, but I would rather spend that money on about a hundred other things first.

[InboRenge]

I really don't think that is the prevailing argument here.

Also, being able to afford something and not liking the asking/going price are separate things. Some jerk could try and sell me a minty '89 Pontiac Sunfire for 20K and my decision about the purchase would have just about nothing to do with my ability to afford it or not. I feel the same way about $250 loose copies of Earthbound. It's not worth that to me. Not by a longshot. I can most definitely afford to buy a copy at that price, but I would rather spend that money on about a hundred other things first.

There is a difference between not liking the going price for an item and the tone people are taking in this thread. Either they don't understand the basic rules of supply and demand, or they're jealous because they can't afford games due to the market taking off. There are old collectors in this thread talking about illegally creating counterfeit games in order to crash their value. How do you explain that away? These people are so jealous that they'd rather destroy the whole market for vintage games than live with the fact that they're too poor to buy games.

You don't think Earthbound is worth $250 loose? Good, don't buy it. That's how a market works, people offer goods for sale, and other individuals buy them at a price which they believe is reasonable. Apparently there are enough individuals willing to pay $250 for that to be the going market rate. You don't have to "like" a price for it to be the current market rate. I don't "like" that a small apartment in NYC is worth $2M dollars, but me not liking it doesn't mean that's not what the going rate is, or that I'm going to resort to some sort of fraud to try and decrease the price.

[o.pwuaioc]

You don't think Earthbound is worth $250 loose? Good, don't buy it. That's how a market works, people offer goods for sale, and other individuals buy them at a price which they believe is reasonable. Apparently there are enough individuals willing to pay $250 for that to be the going market rate. You don't have to "like" a price for it to be the current market rate. I don't "like" that a small apartment in NYC is worth $2M dollars, but me not liking it doesn't mean that's not what the going rate is, or that I'm going to resort to some sort of fraud to try and decrease the price.
I'm sure you could fool many a folk by offering them an apartment in New Jersey and calling it New York City. How would anyone know the difference? I mean, it's not like some plastic where everyone is an expert and can easily spot the terribly low quality labels. Oh, wait. :roll:

[wiggyx]

There is a difference between not liking the going price for an item and the tone people are taking in this thread. Either they don't understand the basic rules of supply and demand, or they're jealous because they can't afford games due to the market taking off. There are old collectors in this thread talking about illegally creating counterfeit games in order to crash their value. How do you explain that away? These people are so jealous that they'd rather destroy the whole market for vintage games than live with the fact that they're too poor to buy games.

You don't think Earthbound is worth $250 loose? Good, don't buy it. That's how a market works, people offer goods for sale, and other individuals buy them at a price which they believe is reasonable. Apparently there are enough individuals willing to pay $250 for that to be the going market rate. You don't have to "like" a price for it to be the current market rate. I don't "like" that a small apartment in NYC is worth $2M dollars, but me not liking it doesn't mean that's not what the going rate is, or that I'm going to resort to some sort of fraud to try and decrease the price.

I think what's being said more than anything regarding the creation of bootlegs/pirates is simply hypothetical ranting, rather than genuine interest (and ability) in doing so. Either way, that sort of thing is often a reality with pricey collectibles, as has already been noted by others. If the market continues to balloon, then we should expect to see a lot more bootleg retro games in the not-too-distant future. There are already repro options for some of the über pricey titles, which teeters on the edge of bootleg in my option (though I support it if only because it gives access to the people that actually want to PLAY the games).

Yes, I understand how the market works. No clarification or advice needed. In fact, I've capitalized on the current going rate for loose EB carts myself.

Again, I think you're reading too much into some of what's been said here with regards to users making passable pirates. I'm sure there's some butt hurt-ness going on in here, but that's not what's going on for all of us. I personally don't like seeing the hobby become inaccessible to the people that really just want to enjoy these games for their intended purpose and I feel that the VGA has a hand in artificially inflating prices. That's what bothers me.

[Gameguy]

The free market isn't exactly smart anyway. I see plenty of repro games selling on ebay for $50-$80 at open auction when anyone can order those games made from the same makers at $25 each. They're the identical games often made from the same repro makers bought from the same source, available to anyone. There should be no reason for them to sell for so much on ebay when they're still being produced by the same sources, the reason they do is because of ignorance.

The whole free market concept doesn't apply to everything anyway, at least it shouldn't apply to food. If the cost of food goes up and someone can no longer afford to buy any, should they just go without any? Telling people they should just accept dying as they can't afford the costs to live isn't right. This is one of the reasons why things are regulated, so people don't get gouged just because someone can do so and get away with it.

I'm not saying video games or luxury items should be regulated in any official sense, but that's kind of what a number of collectors are trying to do to keep things in check. This also keeps things more stable so there won't be massive bubbles and crashes later on.

[Buyatari]

VGA is nothing more than a house of cards destined for an abrupt fall.

As has been mentioned, the original NES shrink-sealing equipment is readily available, and if the US secret service deals with photo-realistic copies of US currency on a regular basis, then, yes the two lone employees at VGA can be fooled by modern printing techniques. What would stop someone from inserting a carefully weighted slab of wood inside a resealed printed box and passing it off to VGA as the real McCoy? The ebay bidders would be none the wiser because they are never going to open their investments. In all actuality, the current population of any game could be artificially increased by unscrupulous types. It really is a system set up for dishonesty.

You guys are nothing but talk.

Print it up.

Produce a label that says FAKE and after you get your fake sealed game back open up your fake VGA graded game on camera.

THAT would be an exposing video.

[GarrettCRW]

And now Buyatari has resorted to grade school chants of "LA LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING!" and "Prove it!"

How wonderfully mature.

[ProgrammingAce]

For all of you sealed game experts out there, can you name the company who produced the shrink wrap?

'cause I can.

[Buyatari]

And now Buyatari has resorted to grade school chants of "LA LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING!" and "Prove it!"

How wonderfully mature.

I prefer a different grade school chant.

"Back it up or shut up."

Lets see a sealed fake NES black box game from start to finish sent off to VGA for a VGA grade.

[GarrettCRW]

And when someone does it (assuming it hasn't already happened), you'll deny it, because you are completely and utterly full of shit.

[wiggyx]

For all of you sealed game experts out there, can you name the company who produced the shrink wrap?

'cause I can.

So do it. It's not like they used some exclusive process or material.

[skaar]

Prove it. Start printing up black box games and send them off to VGA.

http://i.imgur.com/OlWN3.jpg

[sloan]

Produce a label that says FAKE and after you get your fake sealed game back open up your fake VGA graded game on camera.


I am not foolish enough to believe VGA would grade a game package with verbiage 'FAKE' emblazened somewhere on it.

[Buyatari]

We can all lament that Digital Press is now a dead site (and I have), but that doesn't mean I will accept the fact that the collecting community is now a different place. VGA is just another reason not to look back.

How can you say that !

This is the home of the videogaming Brony !

[Buyatari]

I am not foolish enough to believe VGA would grade a game package with verbiage 'FAKE' emblazened somewhere on it.

ON THE CART

Put it on the cart, make your fake box and fake seal and send it in. THEN open it on camera and when we see the FAKE cart we will know you didn't switch it out.

[GarrettCRW]

At which point Buyatari will, as I previously stated, say you're a liar because he is still completely full of shit.

[Buyatari]

And when someone does it (assuming it hasn't already happened), you'll deny it, because you are completely and utterly full of shit.

The only one in denial of facts are the anti-VGA crowd.

No one here denied they fucked up the Metal Gear solid strategy guide box.

You guys are so full of shit. If you want to talk shit that is fine but back it up please. Don't tell me you COULD if you wanted to and then when told to put up or shut up say "Ohh how do you know we haven't already"

HA !

I have a time machine and I COULD go back in time if I wanted to.

[GarrettCRW]

I'M NOT LISTENING TO YOU! I'M NOT LISTENING TO YOU! I'M NOT LISTENING TO YOU! I'M NOT LISTENING TO YOU!

Corrected for what it amounts to. You've denied everything rational written in this thread (that doesn't mean JakeM) or ignored it, right down to blaming the seller for purchasing a poorly-sized case.

[Buyatari]

At which point Buyatari will, as I previously stated, say you're a liar because he is still completely full of shit.

The best defense is a good offense huh?

Say some shit that you can't back up and then when put on the spot just turn it around.

I'm rubber you're glue.....

This is great. Screw videogames I just want to sit here all day and match wits with the unarmed !

[Buyatari]

At which point Buyatari will, as I previously stated, say you're a liar because he is still completely full of shit.

I would go back in time with my homemade time machine and prove it but then you would just deny it so I'm not going to bother.

Makes sense to me.

[skaar]

How can you say that !

This is the home of the videogaming Brony !

http://www.gagbay.com/images/2012/09/apply_cold_water_to_the_burned_area-145373.jpg

[badinsults]

ON THE CART

Put it on the cart, make your fake box and fake seal and send it in. THEN open it on camera and when we see the FAKE cart we will know you didn't switch it out.

Your line of attack is incredibly similar to that of fundamentalist Christians who believe the world is 6000 years old.


"Dinosaurs lived during the Mesozoic Era, 252 to 66 million years ago"

"No they didn't the Earth is only 6000 years old, it says so in the Bible!"

"But we have evidence through geological stratigraphy, radiogenic dating, evolutionary biology."

"But were humans living then?"

"No."

"Then you have no proof, because humans didn't see dinsaurs to know they were alive! JESUS!"

[GarrettCRW]

Screw videogames I just want to sit here all day and match wits with the unarmed !

Being called witless by someone who's acting like a creationist or a climate change denier is a compliment, so go have fun in your "time machine".

[Tanooki]

Your line of attack is incredibly similar to that of fundamentalist Christians who believe the world is 6000 years old.


"Dinosaurs lived during the Mesozoic Era, 252 to 66 million years ago"

"No they didn't the Earth is only 6000 years old, it says so in the Bible!"

"But we have evidence through geological stratigraphy, radiogenic dating, evolutionary biology."

"But were humans living then?"

"No."

"Then you have no proof, because humans didn't see dinsaurs to know they were alive! JESUS!"

Your train of thought trying to peg him as the christian crank is a joke. I'm surprised everyone is shitting all over buyatari. All he's saying is if someone here has one of those original shrink machines, and this person could make a totally dead on copy of an NES box, then do it and when you do it put a game in the box that's sealed with the word FAKE ON IT. Record the process, record the sealing, mail it to VGA, catch them in the lie, get it back graded, then crack that bitch open on camera and prove the argument.

How does that sound fundi?? All anyone is doing at this rate is cementing in his mind people here can talk shit and not deliver and I wouldn't blame him either. If it can be done, just fucking do it and stop making excuses and stories. I personally would love to see the VGA house of cards kicked out from under them but I don't have the original 1980s shrink wrap machine or card stock/ink copying capabilities or I would do it. If VGA could pass that test then I'd probaby trust them, and if not then well that says a lot for their own credibility built upon blind trust and smoke & mirrors.

[Buyatari]

Your line of attack is incredibly similar to that of fundamentalist Christians who believe the world is 6000 years old.


"Dinosaurs lived during the Mesozoic Era, 252 to 66 million years ago"

"No they didn't the Earth is only 6000 years old, it says so in the Bible!"

"But we have evidence through geological stratigraphy, radiogenic dating, evolutionary biology."

"But were humans living then?"

"No."

"Then you have no proof, because humans didn't see dinsaurs to know they were alive! JESUS!"


You guys are so biased you can't even think straight. How is that the same?

The dinosaur bones are the proof in that example. I'm not dismissing proof here. You are refusing to show it to me.

This is more like refusing to believe an alien abduction story.

Back it up and show me the bones ~!

[Buyatari]

Your train of thought trying to peg him as the christian crank is a joke. I'm surprised everyone is shitting all over buyatari.

I think this is great.

These arguments don't even make sense and it is getting worse.......or better depending on your enjoyment level.

[RP2A03]

Your train of thought trying to peg him as the christian crank is a joke. I'm surprised everyone is shitting all over buyatari. All he's saying is if someone here has one of those original shrink machines, and this person could make a totally dead on copy of an NES box, then do it and when you do it put a game in the box that's sealed with the word FAKE ON IT. Record the process, record the sealing, mail it to VGA, catch them in the lie, get it back graded, then crack that bitch open on camera and prove the argument.

How does that sound fundi?? All anyone is doing at this rate is cementing in his mind people here can talk shit and not deliver and I wouldn't blame him either. If it can be done, just fucking do it and stop making excuses and stories. I personally would love to see the VGA house of cards kicked out from under them but I don't have the original 1980s shrink wrap machine or card stock/ink copying capabilities or I would do it. If VGA could pass that test then I'd probaby trust them, and if not then well that says a lot for their own credibility built upon blind trust and smoke & mirrors.


Shhhhh. Rational thought has no place in this thread.

[Tanooki]

Shhhhh. Rational thought has no place in this thread.

Goddamnit! Oh wait that didn't sound very fundi. Best go run now and make some tin foil hats for those who need them. :D

[Buyatari]

A qualified disc game and a strategy guide are one thing but if you want to seriously hurt the credibility then it would have be with their bread and butter.

Fake a black box NES game from start to finish since it is so easy to do and post that video. Those games are selling for THOUSANDS each. Don't speculate on what I would think about it. If someone were to pull that off and prove it on tape then you would seriously hurt not only VGAs credibility but rock sealed game collecting to its core.

[Kiddo]

You know, maybe if you folks wanted to stop others' arguments, you'd try to get the thread killed rather than, y'know, repeatedly posting one after another to essentially circlejerk each other and bump the thread back up the top.

You're purposely calling attention to yourselves. It reeks of trollbait.

[dodgeme]

A qualified disc game and a strategy guide are one thing but if you want to seriously hurt the credibility then it would have be with their bread and butter.

Fake a black box NES game from start to finish since it is so easy to do and post that video. Those games are selling for THOUSANDS each. Don't speculate on what I would think about it. If someone were to pull that off and prove it on tape then you would seriously hurt not only VGAs credibility but rock sealed game collecting to its core.

If someone were faking a black box game to the point where it passed as real why would they expose it. I would be racking in my cash for as long as I could and take advantage of the community for as a long as I could.

[ProjectCamaro]

You know, maybe if you folks wanted to stop others' arguments, you'd try to get the thread killed rather than, y'know, repeatedly posting one after another to essentially circlejerk each other and bump the thread back up the top.

You're purposely calling attention to yourselves. It reeks of trollbait.

Ding, ding, ding.


This thread has turned into nothimg more than calling each other names like little kids do.

[skaar]

I'm more dismayed that the proposed solution/experiment here is to actually willingly commit an act of fraud.

The only seal that should matter is this one:

http://images.nintendolife.com/news/2010/02/talking_point_does_nintendo_need_to_exercise_more_ quality_control_on_the_wii/attachment/0/medium.jpg

[xelement5x]

If someone were faking a black box game to the point where it passed as real why would they expose it. I would be racking in my cash for as long as I could and take advantage of the community for as a long as I could.

I don't understand why it took 8 pages of this nonsense for someone to say what is the most obvious thing in the world.

If you have a person that's invested loads of money in making authentic bootlegs that can fool the VGA, why would they expose themselves? They wouldn't, it is that simple.

Revealing yourself now would be like eating the goose that lays golden eggs just so you can tell your neighbors how delicious is was.

[Dangerboy]

A qualified disc game and a strategy guide are one thing but if you want to seriously hurt the credibility then it would have be with their bread and butter.

It was a VGA Graded 75+ NM Sealed Game and Guide Bundle. Not a "Qualified'. Please refrain from changing facts.

[Buyatari]

I don't understand why it took 8 pages of this nonsense for someone to say what is the most obvious thing in the world.

If you have a person that's invested loads of money in making authentic bootlegs that can fool the VGA, why would they expose themselves? They wouldn't, it is that simple.

Revealing yourself now would be like eating the goose that lays golden eggs just so you can tell your neighbors how delicious is was.

Of course. Same reason I don't prove my time machine.


If they really were making thousands then they would be the biggest VGA supporters out there. These guys are saying that VGA is evil and want to see it gone. Making a video like this would go a long way towards that.

[Buyatari]

It was a VGA Graded 75+ NM Sealed Game and Guide Bundle. Not a "Qualified'. Please refrain from changing facts.

2 seperate items.

The Namco game was qualifed.

[theclaw]

Of course. Same reason I don't prove my time machine.


If they really were making thousands then they would be the biggest VGA supporters out there. These guys are saying that VGA is evil and want to see it gone. Making a video like this would go a long way towards that.

Committing fraud at the expense of VGA makes oneself look worse than they will.

[Buyatari]

Committing fraud at the expense of VGA makes oneself look worse than they will.

If you sold them yes but no one (even VGA supporters) would fault a collector for producing a game only to expose VGA.

[theclaw]

Perhaps many wouldn't, but they should take caution at least. Producing a game to "expose" VGA is an act worthy of researching the person responsible.

Tools to reproduce games with such accuracy are usable enough for criminal purposes.

[Gameguy]

The only seal that should matter is this one:

http://images.nintendolife.com/news/2010/02/talking_point_does_nintendo_need_to_exercise_more_ quality_control_on_the_wii/attachment/0/medium.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/35d5csx.jpg


That seal isn't good enough.


If you sold them yes but no one (even VGA supporters) would fault a collector for producing a game only to expose VGA.
It's not fraud, not unless you're selling it to someone while describing it as legitimate. The whole supposed purpose of the VGA is to authenticate games, if you send a fake, altered, or tampered game this company is supposed to detect it. Sending in a tampered game isn't wrong, if they grade that game as legitimate that would be wrong. Testing the services of the company seems to be on par with any consumer tests, like testing auto dealerships or computer repair shops which seems to be a regular thing.

So I agree with what Buyatari is saying. People are claiming that they can make fake games good enough to fool the VGA, yet nobody is willing to prove it. I do think it's possible to fool them, I'd just like to see someone prove it.

[badinsults]

You guys are so biased you can't even think straight. How is that the same?

The dinosaur bones are the proof in that example. I'm not dismissing proof here. You are refusing to show it to me.

This is more like refusing to believe an alien abduction story.

Back it up and show me the bones ~!

I really don't see why it should be necessary.

Conceed this:

1) The equipment that was used to seal games still exists.

2) The company that manufactures the shrinkwrap still exists.

3) High quality scanners exist.

4) Photoshop and similar programs exist to remove visible flaws on the scan.

5) Printing boxes of the same quality as the original can be done at a nominally cheap price.

So in theory, it is entirely possible to create a forgery that could easily pass as an original. I don't see why you would need to actually go through the process to prove anything, just like you didn't need to live in the Mesozoic to prove that dinosaurs existed. I mean, Dangerboy already posted a proof-of-concept video of how to create your own "back label variant" for the Playstation that would have passed VGA's standards. Just because nobody has claimed to have got a fake through VGA doesn't mean that is hasn't happened, or won't happen. And when it does, I don't envision it will rock your core belief that grading games is a great way for you to profit.

BTW, I don't encourage fraud or making fake sealed games, just like I don't encourage making unauthorized bootlegs/reproductions.

[theclaw]

If you're going to go through all that trouble, it might make more sense to fake the VGA grade too.

In any case an occasional reliability test is a good thing.
Purposefully attempting to deceive isn't.

Those who dislike VGA could be trying to encourage improving their service instead of talk of undermining them by dishonest means.


http://i43.tinypic.com/35d5csx.jpg


That seal isn't good enough.

Isn't that missing the "of quality" part?

[Kiddo]

It's not fraud, not unless you're selling it to someone while describing it as legitimate. The whole supposed purpose of the VGA is to authenticate games, if you send a fake, altered, or tampered game this company is supposed to detect it. Sending in a tampered game isn't wrong, if they grade that game as legitimate that would be wrong. Testing the services of the company seems to be on par with any consumer tests, like testing auto dealerships or computer repair shops which seems to be a regular thing.

So I agree with what Buyatari is saying. People are claiming that they can make fake games good enough to fool the VGA, yet nobody is willing to prove it. I do think it's possible to fool them, I'd just like to see someone prove it.

I would start by saying:
1) There's a difference between having them authenticate something that happens to be counterfeit, and purposely crafting a counterfeit item to submit to an authenticator. The former happens out of one's control, while the latter is an intentional act grounded in deceit and fraud. Logically, I'd assume the folks who'd want to discredit VGA would prefer to make catching VGA authenticating a fraud look like the former than the latter, so they could pull off the discreditng while making it look like an accident that was simply bound to happen. This way said person could dodge the backlash of a theoretical VGA defense force, unwanted attention on social media sites, requests from shady dealers, and potential job blacklistings.
2) Auto dealers and computer repairs don't deal with collectibles. Their standards for quality are grounded in the immediate objective functionally of the product they ae selling more than a collectible grader's ability to analyze how much of a special snowflake a certain product is, and therefore the comparison is apples to oranges.

That being said, I'll just take it that whoever's actually gonna attempt to "expose" VGA is not someone publicly speaking against them in this thread (who is already convinced enough), but someone behind the scenes.

That all being said, I'll agree that Nintendo Seal of Quality went on one too many LJN games. :P

[Cornelius]

I would start by saying:
1) There's a difference between having them authenticate something that happens to be counterfeit, and purposely crafting a counterfeit item to submit to an authenticator. The former happens out of one's control, while the latter is an intentional act grounded in deceit and fraud. Logically, I'd assume the folks who'd want to discredit VGA would prefer to make catching VGA authenticating a fraud look like the former than the latter, so they could pull off the discreditng while making it look like an accident that was simply bound to happen. This way said person could dodge the backlash of a theoretical VGA defense force, unwanted attention on social media sites, requests from shady dealers, and potential job blacklistings.


Who is going to object if a journalist from the gaming press does an investigative piece on the VGA? Part of that being to submit a fake for the story. I guess undercover journalism isn't always the most desirable route to take, but sometimes it is the only one available.

[Gameguy]

In any case an occasional reliability test is a good thing.
Purposefully attempting to deceive isn't.

There's a difference between having them authenticate something that happens to be counterfeit, and purposely crafting a counterfeit item to submit to an authenticator.
How can you test their ability to detect fakes unless a known fake is sent in to them to verify? If someone sends in a fake by accident, thinking it's real, and it gets graded as a real copy, how does anyone know about it?

With consumer tests of car dealerships people go in posing as though they're looking to buy a used car, then they ask about the car's history. Later they do their own research to see if the salesman was honest or trying to rip them off. Sometimes used cars were in accidents and aren't in safe usable condition, they shouldn't even be available for sale but some dealers still try to sell them. Is it wrong for these consumer tests to take place? These people aren't planning on actually buying a car so it's really like they're wasting the time of the dealership. I still think it's good to do.

Or about repair shops charging for uneeded repairs. In these cases an item that's verified as completely functional is damaged or disabled in a specific way, then sent to a repair shop to be fixed. It's a type of controlled test to see if they're charging for uneeded repairs or if they're honest about what needed to be done.

In any case this isn't about testing their grading scale, whether a game in a certain condition should be rated a certain value(though this can be a problem too). This is about being able to tell if a game is real or not, this should be something basic for the services that they're offering. That's really the whole point of the company and why some people are paying more for these games.

It's expected of dealers of antique furniture to know what's real or fake. The wood is still available, the tools are still available, the stains and finish are still available. Theoretically anyone can make a "perfect" copy of any piece of furniture, yet there are still ways to detect fakes. You have to look at patina, oxidation, wear patterns, other signs of age to determine if a piece is real or a later reproduction. Just having the same equipment and supplies might not be enough to make a perfect sealed game, something that looks like a now 20+ year old product. There should be some type of wear on the box if it's ever been opened too, even if it's barely noticable. This is what should be tested with this company.

[sloan]

How can you test their ability to detect fakes unless a known fake is sent in to them to verify? This is what should be tested with this company.

Exactly, and sending them a fraudulent game to grade is in no way illegal. It is simply putting their grading skills to the test.

[theclaw]

Yeah I'm talking more about the fake's motivations and origin in this case. Send it hoping to research or help VGA, rather than with intent to hurt them.

[Buyatari]

I really don't see why it should be necessary.

Conceed this:

1) The equipment that was used to seal games still exists.

2) The company that manufactures the shrinkwrap still exists.

3) High quality scanners exist.

4) Photoshop and similar programs exist to remove visible flaws on the scan.

5) Printing boxes of the same quality as the original can be done at a nominally cheap price.

So in theory, it is entirely possible to create a forgery that could easily pass as an original. I don't see why you would need to actually go through the process to prove anything, just like you didn't need to live in the Mesozoic to prove that dinosaurs existed. I mean, Dangerboy already posted a proof-of-concept video of how to create your own "back label variant" for the Playstation that would have passed VGA's standards. Just because nobody has claimed to have got a fake through VGA doesn't mean that is hasn't happened, or won't happen. And when it does, I don't envision it will rock your core belief that grading games is a great way for you to profit.

BTW, I don't encourage fraud or making fake sealed games, just like I don't encourage making unauthorized bootlegs/reproductions.

I don't think your boxes or your process will pass the test. In theory anything is possible but in practice it is a lot harder than you think to pull it off.

Why not make Action #1 comic books? You could sell those for a quarter million up to a million bucks EACH. Just paper right?

[Buyatari]

Who is going to object if a journalist from the gaming press does an investigative piece on the VGA? Part of that being to submit a fake for the story. I guess undercover journalism isn't always the most desirable route to take, but sometimes it is the only one available.

So far the only ones objecting are those who suggested they could easily do it in the first place. That is because it isn't as easy as they made it out to be.

[JSoup]

So far the only ones objecting are those who suggested they could easily do it in the first place. That is because it isn't as easy as they made it out to be.

More likely because they have little idea how to go about it. I've mentioned this before, but if you really think your cardboard video game boxes can't be perfectly duplicated, take some of your spare time, locate a printing studio and learn how wrong you are.

This whole thing has spun out of control here. Since there really isn't any evidence that this VGA garbage is having any effect on...pretty much anything, let the people with money to burn have their fun.

[jonebone]

I don't think your boxes or your process will pass the test. In theory anything is possible but in practice it is a lot harder than you think to pull it off.

Why not make Action #1 comic books? You could sell those for a quarter million up to a million bucks EACH. Just paper right?

Comic book? Too long. How about just faking a simple T206 Honus Wagner card, it's a few inches of paper cardboard stock and the return will be MULTI million dollars. After all, we have scanning technologies, why waste your time with $1,000s when you can scam for $1,000,000s.

Theories are wonderful and all, but no one is going to waste the time or capital to get it started up. Having someone who can purchase the factory machines, having the skills at photoshop is a 1 in a million shot, then it still has to get by the VGA eye. VGA always errs on the side of caution as well... they have rejected legitimate games that were questionable in the past. Example, FFVII on PS1 that looked Mint, but they detected trace glue residue on the seal and ruled that it may have been tampered with to increase the grade. Result, no grade, indetermined.

A more plausible scam theory would be to fake the entire VGA slab itself, so you cut out their authentication process entirely. That is what happened in cards, yet it didn't collapse the hobby or anything. There's a million fake Michael Jordan Rookies out there, so what did they do? They actually slabbed the fakes in fake PSA slabs to trick the novice buyers. Sadly people paids $1000s of dollars for these fakes, but now there's some internet knowledge about detecting fake slabs, rather than just detecting fake cards.

Life goes on...

[Cornelius]

So far the only ones objecting are those who suggested they could easily do it in the first place. That is because it isn't as easy as they made it out to be.

I quoted Kiddo because he did seem to be objecting to the concept.

I don't have any skin in this game, but I thought Portnoyd was the one who suggested the 'fake' idea, and he hasn't posted since implying that its already been done, so he couldn't really be objecting. Is someone else promoting the idea and objecting that I missed?

[skaar]

Who is going to object if a journalist from the gaming press does an investigative piece on the VGA?

There is no such thing as journalism in the gaming press. This is the most delusional statement in this thread by far.

[Cornelius]

There is no such thing as journalism in the gaming press. This is the most delusional statement in this thread by far.

Haha. Yeah, I almost made some statement to this effect myself! And by way of that point, it seems reasonable then that anyone with the resources could legitimately take up the effort we are discussing. "journalist", especially in gaming, means very different things now than several years ago.

[tom]

Maybe the VGA people don't care about fakes, they're just interesting in grading the item.

[bigbacon]

Actually, they should just grade the fakes and obviously mark it as such. Then you can say you have a grade 99 fake which makes it ALMOST a near perfect repo.

[Parodius Duh!]

I couldnt agree with Buyatari more. If someone was to make a reproduction that looked EXACT to the real deal, with the sole purpose of sending it in to see if it will be graded, well, I see no harm in that. Youll just be out a few bucks if anything, or youll be a hero who has exposed a rotten worthless company that does more harm then good. Its more of a test for VGA to prove that they are the best at what they do, or if they are a bunch of sheisters.
As long as the game is not going to be sold, the entire process of creating the repro and sending it is documented, and the only purpose is to test the VGA's "professional" graders, well...someone needs to put them to the test!

And as far as scammers doing this and profiting, thats just that...they are scammers. They are already doing it or VGA knows their way around a fake game. Doesnt mean an honest person cant put VGA to the test, I mean hell, if anything itll get right passed them and force them to change how they grade items after they are exposed, or it will prove that they really know what they are doing. Id like to see that clear proof.

Who is the best Repro Box maker around? Ill gladly pay for the box and materials if someone pays for the Grading fee. Lets do this.

[Parodius Duh!]

I don't think your boxes or your process will pass the test. In theory anything is possible but in practice it is a lot harder than you think to pull it off.

Why not make Action #1 comic books? You could sell those for a quarter million up to a million bucks EACH. Just paper right?

The thing with Comic Books, Baseball cards, etc. These are items that do not come sealed in shrinkwrap (So unless VGA unshrinked the game and tested the cardboards age....but that wont happen) and are put through tests to determine the age of the paper used. 99% impossible to fake and make it seem real. Thats why a company like CGC is needed, to preserve the rare and fragile paper products as well as having a team of actual scientists helping out with the grading. Now thats a 100% legit company. VGA have scientists? doubt it.

[Kiddo]

I quoted Kiddo because he did seem to be objecting to the concept.

I'm speaking as someone who feels there's a lot more ethical implications involved in the method of trying to "expose" a company involving the very creation of a counterfeit product than what most others are trying to argue.

I'm not arguing whether it's theoretically possible because I don't really care for new/sealed games, so that wouldn't be my field of expertise anyway. I'm just explaining why I'd believe anyone who feared either God or society wouldn't want to do something like that even if it was perfectly within his ability, and thus I don't think it'd be reasonable to essentially "dare" someone to go for it.

I'll go as far as to say myself that I do have something that I'm curious about whether VGA would grade or not (That would possibly look bad for them if they did), but am held back by said ethics as well as lack of a will to pay the money to get the grades. (It's not a new/sealed game, though, so it's not quite the same argument.)

[Bojay1997]

The thing with Comic Books, Baseball cards, etc. These are items that do not come sealed in shrinkwrap (So unless VGA unshrinked the game and tested the cardboards age....but that wont happen) and are put through tests to determine the age of the paper used. 99% impossible to fake and make it seem real. Thats why a company like CGC is needed, to preserve the rare and fragile paper products as well as having a team of actual scientists helping out with the grading. Now thats a 100% legit company. VGA have scientists? doubt it.

I'm sorry, but where did you get your information about CGC? I spent some time at their booth at ComicCon San Diego a few years back and I can say with certainty that they aren't "scientists" and they don't do testing of paper. They are basically just people that have examined a number of comics and know what to look for to detect a fake. That's no different than VGA or any other grading service. Heck, it's no different than what many experienced collectors do. While I agree that VGA could be more transparent, I disagree that other grading organizations have a superior process. In the end, all of them just look at a bunch of the same thing and develop expertise in determining when something comes in that doesn't match the others.

[Parodius Duh!]

I'm sorry, but where did you get your information about CGC? I spent some time at their booth at ComicCon San Diego a few years back and I can say with certainty that they aren't "scientists" and they don't do testing of paper. They are basically just people that have examined a number of comics and know what to look for to detect a fake. That's no different than VGA or any other grading service. Heck, it's no different than what many experienced collectors do. While I agree that VGA could be more transparent, I disagree that other grading organizations have a superior process. In the end, all of them just look at a bunch of the same thing and develop expertise in determining when something comes in that doesn't match the others.

I dont mean that every employee there is a scientist. If they need to test a paper product to ensure its legitimacy, they usually call in paper specialists to scientifically date the comic. This happened with a copy of Amazing Spiderman #1 a local comic book shop I worked part time for sent in. The CGC sent them an email stating that it would take a bit longer because they need to "scientifically authenticate the manufacture date of the paper used" because the issue the shop sent in to CGC had perfectly white pages still, so they were weary of it being a fake or just an original cover stapled around reproduced pages....which wasnt the case, it came back graded 100% legit 6.0....The majority though you are right, its just people who have been grading and collecting comics for 30+ years and really know their shit, but if it comes down to them needing to authenticate the age of an issue, they will do so by having a paper specialist come in. What Im getting at is CGC and PSA will bring in the proper people to accurately date an item if their hired graders can not come to a conclusion on it.

[Tanooki]

Maybe the VGA people don't care about fakes, they're just interesting in grading the item.

I think there's a truth within a stretch there. If you could slide a fake by the VGA and got it graded I bet some of the owners if not a lot wouldn't notice either and therefore wouldn't care once it's slabbed, stickered and noted in the system.

[Buyatari]

I dont mean that every employee there is a scientist. If they need to test a paper product to ensure its legitimacy, they usually call in paper specialists to scientifically date the comic. This happened with a copy of Amazing Spiderman #1 a local comic book shop I worked part time for sent in. The CGC sent them an email stating that it would take a bit longer because they need to "scientifically authenticate the manufacture date of the paper used" because the issue the shop sent in to CGC had perfectly white pages still, so they were weary of it being a fake or just an original cover stapled around reproduced pages....which wasnt the case, it came back graded 100% legit 6.0....The majority though you are right, its just people who have been grading and collecting comics for 30+ years and really know their shit, but if it comes down to them needing to authenticate the age of an issue, they will do so by having a paper specialist come in. What Im getting at is CGC and PSA will bring in the proper people to accurately date an item if their hired graders can not come to a conclusion on it.

I wonder what they did to the paper to authenticate it? Other than look at it under magnification and UV light etc I don't think they test the paper as this would damage the book.