Digital Preservation of Videogames! (Crowdfunding Campaign)

[HappehLemons]

Hey all! Me and a team of people have gotten together to make a website dedicated to creating the largest searchable database of videogames in the history of the planet! We really want to change the game here. I think a lot of members here will be interested in this and we really want to hear everyone's voice here so we can make the best website possible. Please feel free to let me know anything you have any questions about anything at all! I can go on and on about the website, but everything is explained on the indiegogo page, so please take a look.
Check out the campaign here : http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-video-game-archive/x/3549203

Thank you!

[JSoup]

...to make a website dedicated to creating the largest searchable database of videogames in the history of the planet!

Already done, pick one of the following:

http://www.mobygames.com/
http://www.gamefaqs.com/

Not seeing what you guys are offering that I can't easily find on either of those two sites or any number of other sites across the internet.

Edit: Upon further reading, I'm still not following why a website needs crowed funding to be a website. Generally how this works is a site pops up, people like it, it grows and then various donation methods are added to help fund projects, pay for server costs, etc. It seems like you're trying to skip all the first steps and jump straight to popular website territory without paying your dues, so to speak. Additionally, tossing money at something that doesn't even seem to have a community backing (and please correct me, and link me, if I'm wrong about that) or a core to fall back on makes this a rather dicey investment.

Edit 2: I'm having trouble articulating my thoughts for this edit, I've rewritten the same sentence six times already. Something just feels off about this. I'm not sure if it's because all the flashy graphics aren't really helping and otherwise using up resources (years of work in archival studies are causing a low buzzing in the back of my brain, the buzz decodes as "keep it simple") or the fact that you guys seems to be trying to be too many things all at once. I don't know, I want to like the idea, but there is a lot in the way here.

[TheRedEye]

You guys have the drive, the dedication and the people, but my advice to you is to figure out what your core is and stick to that instead of trying to do everything. As someone who has been producing online videogame content professionally for almost ten years now I can tell you from experience how difficult it is to create articles people will actually read, I can't help but look at everything you're promising (features? a videographer?) and think you're over-scoping.

MobyGames has its problems, especially now that it's owned by GameFly, but nothing else even comes close to it. Unless someone like you guys steps up to provide a real alternative, we're stuck with the equivalent of our IMDB languishing and eventually dying. I'd advise you to figure out a smaller scope that concentrates only on out-classing MobyGames on its own terms instead of trying to please absolutely everyone who likes video games with a monstrous project like the one you're pitching. Good luck!

[Bojay1997]

Already done, pick one of the following:

http://www.mobygames.com/
http://www.gamefaqs.com/

Not seeing what you guys are offering that I can't easily find on either of those two sites or any number of other sites across the internet.

Edit: Upon further reading, I'm still not following why a website needs crowed funding to be a website. Generally how this works is a site pops up, people like it, it grows and then various donation methods are added to help fund projects, pay for server costs, etc. It seems like you're trying to skip all the first steps and jump straight to popular website territory without paying your dues, so to speak. Additionally, tossing money at something that doesn't even seem to have a community backing (and please correct me, and link me, if I'm wrong about that) or a core to fall back on makes this a rather dicey investment.

Edit 2: I'm having trouble articulating my thoughts for this edit, I've rewritten the same sentence six times already. Something just feels off about this. I'm not sure if it's because all the flashy graphics aren't really helping and otherwise using up resources (years of work in archival studies are causing a low buzzing in the back of my brain, the buzz decodes as "keep it simple") or the fact that you guys seems to be trying to be too many things all at once. I don't know, I want to like the idea, but there is a lot in the way here.

I actually agree with this 100%. I've seen this same business plan literally a million times (and not just for video games, but for movies and toys and every other kind of collectible) and the reality is that there are already many similar sites out there that have over a decade or more worth of content. If I need information about a particular game, I do a Google search. That gives me instant access to reviews, cover photos, screen shots, gameplay videos, etc...I have no interest in going to some "master" gaming website with essentially curated content. In my opinion, there is literally no new take on video games that you could create at this point that would make the site the hub of gaming for a large number of people. My advice is to develop your site on a smaller scale, perhaps aimed at an underserved niche and then build it over time. Maybe if you have good writers and useful tools, you can become one of the more popular video game websites. The general gaming public shouldn't be responsible for subsidizing your efforts when so many other amazing websites including the one you are posting on right now have done the same thing without the benefit of crowdfunding.

[sloan]

I didn't read through your entire website, but will list some of my wants in a video game database.

1. Full and hi-res label scans. For obvious reasons. Many of these games, especially rare ones, will eventually be lost for all time. Get the scans sooner rather than later.
2. Full and hi-res manual scans. See point 1.
3. Full and hi-res controller overlay scans. See point 1.
4. Scans and complete list of all originally packed-in materials, including leaflets, maps, hints books, etc.
5. Full and hi-res scans of all clamshell/jewel case inserts. See point 1.
6. Complete scans of all original boxes, all 6 sides.

[Aussie2B]

I really don't think the internet needs yet another general gaming database. I'd rather see people helping to improve the existing ones. GameFAQs already has me pretty well covered for my general database needs (developer info, release dates, cover scans, screenshots, etc., not to mention all the fan-made content), and I turn to the Digital Press database for info about collecting aspects. If I want info even more comprehensive than what you'd find in a general database, I look to system-specific databases like Game-Rave, 64DD.net, PC-FX World, the PCEngine Catalog Project, etc. While I can't say that I always find as much info on a game as I'd like, such as in cases with extremely obscure imports, I highly doubt a general database is going to fill in any of the gaps left behind after all of those, and I also doubt that a brand new general database is going to render any of those obsolete, which in turn makes a new database redundant and unnecessary.

[Bojay1997]

I didn't read through your entire website, but will list some of my wants in a video game database.

1. Full and hi-res label scans. For obvious reasons. Many of these games, especially rare ones, will eventually be lost for all time. Get the scans sooner rather than later.
2. Full and hi-res manual scans. See point 1.
3. Full and hi-res controller overlay scans. See point 1.
4. Scans and complete list of all originally packed-in materials, including leaflets, maps, hints books, etc.
5. Full and hi-res scans of all clamshell/jewel case inserts. See point 1.
6. Complete scans of all original boxes, all 6 sides.

In other words, the very tools scammers need to reproduce perfect copies of games. I'm not following why full and hi-res scans would need to be available on a website. There are very few if any games that will be "lost for all time", especially when there are so many people collecting. I think Mobygames already does a great job of providing front and back cover scans and media scans. I'd think supporting museums would be a better way of protecting games from being lost for all time.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

While I believe you shouldn't let anybody tell you what you can't do or what you shouldn't do (best of luck in your efforts BTW) - I will say that ... historically speaking, this site may not be the best place to present a plan for a crowd-funded anything.

Via the open forum that we are, expect the possibility of more detractors to make their way in and tell you (and in some cases present perfectly valid arguments) as to why your present plans may be faulty.

Again, don't let that stand in your way of your goals, but generally speaking, I'm sure you're aware that we represent a pretty curmudgeonly portion of the community.

Keep your skin tough, and again, best of luck.

[DK1105]

To me this seems like a over designed RF generation. On the anime side there are two really good databases anime-planet.com and myanimelist.net and to my knowledge all of these are ran off of donations.

There are tons of these database websites and just by quick google search for video game database you can see that there are a ton of them and many of them are long established by now.

As it stands your website doesn't seem like it really adds anything new. Design wise I would also rather clean, simple and functional over your currently over simplified arty design.

If you wanna keep at this think about what you really can do different from your competitors that would draw me to your website. I hope you prove me wrong in every way possible and you succeed and the best of luck.

[HappehLemons]

Already done, pick one of the following:

http://www.mobygames.com/
http://www.gamefaqs.com/

Not seeing what you guys are offering that I can't easily find on either of those two sites or any number of other sites across the internet.

Edit: Upon further reading, I'm still not following why a website needs crowed funding to be a website. Generally how this works is a site pops up, people like it, it grows and then various donation methods are added to help fund projects, pay for server costs, etc. It seems like you're trying to skip all the first steps and jump straight to popular website territory without paying your dues, so to speak. Additionally, tossing money at something that doesn't even seem to have a community backing (and please correct me, and link me, if I'm wrong about that) or a core to fall back on makes this a rather dicey investment.

Edit 2: I'm having trouble articulating my thoughts for this edit, I've rewritten the same sentence six times already. Something just feels off about this. I'm not sure if it's because all the flashy graphics aren't really helping and otherwise using up resources (years of work in archival studies are causing a low buzzing in the back of my brain, the buzz decodes as "keep it simple") or the fact that you guys seems to be trying to be too many things all at once. I don't know, I want to like the idea, but there is a lot in the way here.

Hey soup, I really do appreciate the comment. Mobygames is a great resource, and I do love the website, but it's outdated and incomplete and not fully searchable. If you watch the video that was posted along with the campaign I give one example of where mobygames falls flat. Having the ability to search things like multiplayer information (Players supported, type of multiplayer ect...) is something that isn't currently available on any database. But this is just one thing. Having videos of that game (And I'm talking videos of every game, organized on the page by category for each individual game) isn't being done. A complete database of manuals and boxart is so valuable, but doesn't exist either. These are parts of videogame history that are being left behind and almost ignored. I can't begin to tell you all the times I've ordered a game off ebay and wish I had the manual just so I could learn the controls and the backstory since they're such integral parts of retro games.

This is just a couple things though. Having each games related game trees listed, links to other interesting related articles that AREN'T reviews and so much more. I truly do understand your concerns, but what we're offering at Archive is different form any database that already exists.

Why are we using indiegogo? We want Archive to have 0 advertisements, this is the primary way most websites make money and we're trying to avoid this if at all possible. We have all been working on Archive for a long time now for free, but want more help and people normally aren't inclined to work a second job (Practically what most of us are doing) Without compensation. Not eveyone has our level of passion, and we understand that, but since we don't monetize archive traditionally it's difficult to hire people.

Our database will also be open for other developers to use for anything they desire with our API, this is something really unique to us, but we want to share all of the information we've gathered and let other people use for their own projects.

[Xander]

Why are we using indiegogo? We want Archive to have 0 advertisements, this is the primary way most websites make money and we're trying to avoid this if at all possible. We have all been working on Archive for a long time now for free, but want more help and people normally aren't inclined to work a second job (Practically what most of us are doing) Without compensation. Not eveyone has our level of passion, and we understand that, but since we don't monetize archive traditionally it's difficult to hire people.

I have to ask, why not? A few discreet ads never hinder my web browsing experience, and if it can help you in the long run I say why not?

[Bojay1997]

Hey soup, I really do appreciate the comment. Mobygames is a great resource, and I do love the website, but it's outdated and incomplete and not fully searchable. If you watch the video that was posted along with the campaign I give one example of where mobygames falls flat. Having the ability to search things like multiplayer information (Players supported, type of multiplayer ect...) is something that isn't currently available on any database. But this is just one thing. Having videos of that game (And I'm talking videos of every game, organized on the page by category for each individual game) isn't being done. A complete database of manuals and boxart is so valuable, but doesn't exist either. These are parts of videogame history that are being left behind and almost ignored. I can't begin to tell you all the times I've ordered a game off ebay and wish I had the manual just so I could learn the controls and the backstory since they're such integral parts of retro games.

This is just a couple things though. Having each games related game trees listed, links to other interesting related articles that AREN'T reviews and so much more. I truly do understand your concerns, but what we're offering at Archive is different form any database that already exists.

Why are we using indiegogo? We want Archive to have 0 advertisements, this is the primary way most websites make money and we're trying to avoid this if at all possible. We have all been working on Archive for a long time now for free, but want more help and people normally aren't inclined to work a second job (Practically what most of us are doing) Without compensation. Not eveyone has our level of passion, and we understand that, but since we don't monetize archive traditionally it's difficult to hire people.

Our database will also be open for other developers to use for anything they desire with our API, this is something really unique to us, but we want to share all of the information we've gathered and let other people use for their own projects.

Quick question, where are you getting all of this data and content? Are you simply taking it from other existing websites and if so, are you obtaining permission and giving credit to the sources? I just find it hard to believe that anyone could have more scans than Mobygames that has been collecting covers and other data for 14+ years and is generally regarded as the leader in the field. I also don't see how anyone could build a similar resource today in a relatively short time period without stealing a ton of content from others. Between you and your partners, do you own tens of thousands of games that you are going to personally scan and upload to your site? Where are all the videos coming from?

[Xander]

Hey HappehLemons I made an account and in the e-mail I received the system sent me my password in clear. This should not be happening =/ Are the password stored in the DB without getting hashed?

[Tanooki]

I'm curious about all the sources of the data too since you're asking for payment like this. That said though I think it's about time there was a public archive with high quality scans of boxes, labels, manuals and the rest. I'm tired of the selfish nature of a vocal minority on some places around that will crucify and attack people wanting it to guard their own selfish interests.

[Bojay1997]

I'm curious about all the sources of the data too since you're asking for payment like this. That said though I think it's about time there was a public archive with high quality scans of boxes, labels, manuals and the rest. I'm tired of the selfish nature of a vocal minority on some places around that will crucify and attack people wanting it to guard their own selfish interests.

So, your position is that asking for everything to be freely available is not a form of selfish interest? It's just as selfish as anyone else's interests in this thing and perhaps moreso because you have no time, emotional or monetary investment in your position.

People collect for different reasons. I personally don't want to have to worry about a flood of non-original copies out there because I don't want them in my collection. Other people are concerned about the value of their games going down. While I don't care about that, it's still a valid reason to be against free availability of high quality scans of entire boxes and manuals among other materials. The copyright holders also have an interest in being able to repackage their games down the road with copies of the original materials that they own like Nintendo and others have done from time to time. In short, there are lots of people with a stake in this debate and not just a tiny vocal minority.

[HappehLemons]

Hey HappehLemons I made an account and in the e-mail I received the system sent me my password in clear. This should not be happening =/ Are the password stored in the DB without getting hashed?

Hey Xander, don't worry. Your passwords are safe, all passwords are stored hashed and salted and you have nothing to fear as long as your email is secure. Although because you are not the first one to bring this up, from this point on we're disabling that feature since some people have been concerned.


I'm curious about all the sources of the data too since you're asking for payment like this. That said though I think it's about time there was a public archive with high quality scans of boxes, labels, manuals and the rest. I'm tired of the selfish nature of a vocal minority on some places around that will crucify and attack people wanting it to guard their own selfish interests.

Our database is based off what our team has contributed personally and collected and crosschecked by many, many sources. There is no single (or even 3 or 4) sources. All of our content is unwatermarked and we will freely distribute all of our high resolution boxart and manuals and other information to anyone who wants it. We believe that all this data should be distributed freely to anyone who wants it and the people can use it as they wish.


I have to ask, why not? A few discreet ads never hinder my web browsing experience, and if it can help you in the long run I say why not?

This is something the team has talked about, but we're trying hard to keep the browsing experience as focused and clean as possible. We're not looking to get rich or even make profits, just have a full collection of data that everyone can use. If we can do this without ads, that would be perfect to us!

[sloan]

All of our content is unwatermarked and we will freely distribute all of our high resolution boxart and manuals and other information to anyone who wants it. We believe that all this data should be distributed freely to anyone who wants it and the people can use it as they wish.


I love your database already. My biggest issue with Mobygames or others is the incessant use of obnoxious watermarks. If I want to upgrade items in my personal collection, it should matter to no one but myself.

[HappehLemons]

Quick question, where are you getting all of this data and content? Are you simply taking it from other existing websites and if so, are you obtaining permission and giving credit to the sources? I just find it hard to believe that anyone could have more scans than Mobygames that has been collecting covers and other data for 14+ years and is generally regarded as the leader in the field. I also don't see how anyone could build a similar resource today in a relatively short time period without stealing a ton of content from others. Between you and your partners, do you own tens of thousands of games that you are going to personally scan and upload to your site? Where are all the videos coming from?

Hey Bojay, I can understand you skepticism of our clams of having such a large database that was all fairly obtained. I can tell you that all of our content is based off datasets from a lot of people who have contributed to our project. These datasets include Fair Use information from sites like GameFAQs, MobyGames, GiantBomb, etc. We only information which is Fair Use, and this includes many smaller public domain / user with permission data sets like TOSEC, GoodSets, etc. We have also received significant contributions from sites that specialize in information about a single platform. Our website is also designed to strongly encourage any user who wants to contribute to add to our website as well.

We have gotten this question a lot, and I want to thank you for being upfront about your concerns. We're going to be updating our campaign so everyone know exactly how we get all of our information, and how we plan to share it with everyone.

[Bojay1997]

Hey Bojay, I can understand you skepticism of our clams of having such a large database that was all fairly obtained. I can tell you that all of our content is based off datasets from a lot of people who have contributed to our project. These datasets include Fair Use information from sites like GameFAQs, MobyGames, GiantBomb, etc. We only information which is Fair Use, and this includes many smaller public domain / user with permission data sets like TOSEC, GoodSets, etc. We have also received significant contributions from sites that specialize in information about a single platform. Our website is also designed to strongly encourage any user who wants to contribute to add to our website as well.

We have gotten this question a lot, and I want to thank you for being upfront about your concerns. We're going to be updating our campaign so everyone know exactly how we get all of our information, and how we plan to share it with everyone.

I think you have no idea what the term "fair use" means. There is no such thing as "fair use information". Fair use is a narrow doctrine used to provide an affirmative defense to a claim of copyright infringement which involves a four part balancing test. I would suggest you consult with legal counsel before you proceed with taking content from other sites without permission or attribution. Beyond the potential legal issues involved, taking content from other sites without permission or attribution, especially information that has been put together at massive expense over many years is a good way to attract the ire of those website owners and people who have a sense of fair play and appropriate conduct.

[HappehLemons]

I think you have no idea what the term "fair use" means. There is no such thing as "fair use information". Fair use is a narrow doctrine used to provide an affirmative defense to a claim of copyright infringement which involves a four part balancing test. I would suggest you consult with legal counsel before you proceed with taking content from other sites without permission or attribution. Beyond the potential legal issues involved, taking content from other sites without permission or attribution, especially information that has been put together at massive expense over many years is a good way to attract the ire of those website owners and people who have a sense of fair play and appropriate conduct.


Hey bojoy, thank you for the concern. We have consulted legal counsel and everything we have obtained is in the clear to share with everyone so no worries. We believe in total transparency at Archive so if there's anything more we can do to keep everyone informed we welcome any questions.

[Xander]

I just want to say that it is pretty cool of HappehLemons to answer all our question in a calm and professional manner, even if some of those question are fairly delicate. I don't see that often.

[Aussie2B]

I would guess that other databases like Mobygames and GameFAQs don't offer full manual scans because it's copyrighted material and those sites don't have the legal right to reproduce it. Cover images and screenshots, on the other hand, are usually freely distributed as press materials. I'm sure fan sites can get away with hosting manual scans for old games since the companies don't really give a crap, but a database could never be comprehensive and include manuals for modern games as they're released.

[Bojay1997]

I would guess that other databases like Mobygames and GameFAQs don't offer full manual scans because it's copyrighted material and those sites don't have the legal right to reproduce it. Cover images and screenshots, on the other hand, are usually freely distributed as press materials. I'm sure fan sites can get away with hosting manual scans for old games since the companies don't really give a crap, but a database could never be comprehensive and include manuals for modern games as they're released.

I think that's correct. Mobygames takes the same position per their FAQ that their user submitted images represent a fair use exception to copyright because the images are not being used for a commercial purpose, they are diminimus compared to the overall product, they are being used for research and/or archival purposes and they do not represent potential means of competition with the products of the copyright holders (i.e. they aren't high resolution, they couldn't be used to reproduce the physical product itself, etc...).

[Bojay1997]

Just an FYI, there is a similar topic over at Atari Age and it appears that the plan is to simply scour other websites for their content and use it unless they specifically tell the folks behind this effort not to. I personally think that's grossly inappropriate since unique content is the lifeblood of smaller websites.

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/214224-video-game-archive-indiegogo-campaign/page__hl__+archive#entry2788482

[HappehLemons]

Just an FYI, there is a similar topic over at Atari Age and it appears that the plan is to simply scour other websites for their content and use it unless they specifically tell the folks behind this effort not to. I personally think that's grossly inappropriate since unique content is the lifeblood of smaller websites.

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/214224-video-game-archive-indiegogo-campaign/page__hl__+archive#entry2788482

I'm sorry that you're seeing us this way bojay, but as I said on AtariAge, Let me clear things up.

There are lots of incorrect conclusions being jumped to. You've brought a lot of concerns that the community has to my attention, which we all appreciate. I have no problem clearing up this information, but it is unfortunate the way some people are seeing us. Perhaps it's my fault for not making this information clear in the original campaign, but this is a learning process for all of us so all I can ask is please be understanding.

I really do appreciate your concern for other peoples content. Content that we deem under fair use is press-release material that's intentions were for public use, as we will be using it. All other game information that that is in our database is willingly given by users or other websites that have granted permission for public use. We only are using general information that is provided by public sources that allow us to use their information. Any content we are using for our database will be information released that was meant for use by websites like ours. We aren't taking anyone's reviews or videos or FAQs or anything that they own. We have left it up to our users to to upload any of the content they have made to add it to the website. We have already been around for a little while now, we have been building a community that has been happy to help us build and add information to our database that they have produced themselves.

I understand your concern for niche websites, or even larger websites, but I can assure you anything that is not granted for public use, or that has given us direct premission, legal or not, will not be used.

[TRM]

Just an FYI, there is a similar topic over at Atari Age and it appears that the plan is to simply scour other websites for their content and use it unless they specifically tell the folks behind this effort not to. I personally think that's grossly inappropriate since unique content is the lifeblood of smaller websites.

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/214224-video-game-archive-indiegogo-campaign/page__hl__+archive#entry2788482

Yeah, that is really shitty. I remember about a year ago, posting some pictures I had taken of some obscure items I was selling and then later I saw that the pics ended up on another website, and no one had asked me for permission to use them (I probably would have granted permission if asked). It takes the researchers a lot of time and energy to find the content, so it is just shameful to rip it and post it on your own site...

[HappehLemons]

Yeah, that is really shitty. I remember about a year ago, posting some pictures I had taken of some obscure items I was selling and then later I saw that the pics ended up on another website, and no one had asked me for permission to use them (I probably would have granted permission if asked). It takes the researchers a lot of time and energy to find the content, so it is just shameful to rip it and post it on your own site...

Please understand that we are not doing this! Check my previous posts, or the updated campaign page. I will take fault in saying that we should of made it clear from the start that we have never intended, or ever will be using other peoples content in this way. We're really trying to make a positive change for gamers everywhere with our website, not rip off and or profit from other users hard work.

[Koa Zo]

Having a site that covers all regions of videogames will be very useful and a step up from anything out there, however I imagine the administrative complexities of coordinating with contributors from all regions will be troublesome.

Unfortunately I have to take issue with the intent to call the site "archive." Can't blame you, as the misuse of the term "archive" is quite rampant.
Just because you compile and group a large set of information does not make that information an archive.
Archives contains primary source material which is typically unique in nature. Surely your team isn't going to have original production materials or original digital files of games, packaging, etc. And even under the guise of digital archive, a database and repository of images and information does not qualify as an archive.

[HappehLemons]

I just took a look at the proposal site.
It doesn't appear to be clearly stated, is the site covering all regions of video games or just North America?

Also, seeing that you intend to call the site "archive", I have to question whether it is truly an archive or simply a database?
Just because you compile and group a large set of information does not make that information an archive.
Archives contains primary source material which is typically unique in nature. Surely your team isn't going to have original production materials or original digital files of games, packaging, etc. And even under the guise of digital archive, a database and repository of images and information does not qualify as an archive.

All regions, our proof of concept website does not, but Archive 2.0 will, without a doubt. As a digital archive we of course can not contain any actual primary source materials, but packaging is something we are definitely trying to do. Admittedly it's a very daunting task to try to accurately be able not only have packaging, but the specific inserts that come with every game. Even if we have the strongest website in the world, it's the support we get from the community that is even more important. We will of course try to document all of this, and it's already on our roadmap.

[badinsults]

I'll tell you, if you really are going around to other websites, and taking images if they don't explicitly say "don't take these images", I can guarantee you that you will not win over many friends in the classic gaming community. When I make scans for my website, it can take upwards of an hour to scan and edit to make it look nice. Even with a staff of seven people, I don't see how you could have possibly made an archive of over 100,000 games in two and a half years without taking stuff from other websites. In a quick look at a few pages, there are clearly some fan-made scans used on your site, and somehow I doubt you ever got permission to use those. As an example, your page on The Legend of Zelda (http://archive.vg/game/4682/) clearly has scans that were taken from Nintendo Age (http://www.nintendoage.com/index.cfm?FuseAction=Element.View&pId=1&egID=1304&lgID=6441&sID=2445).

These kinds of drams have happened before. Look at the case of NES Land (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?15132-NES-Land!). Or how about when Playstation Museum started copying all of the images from Game Rave (http://www.playstationcollecting.com/auth/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=59&threadid=72079)? I certainly have had cases where people have taken images off my site and used them without permission (I have seen my scans of rare games like the Donkey Kong Country Competition Cart used in Ebay auctions).

If your site is basically a conglomerate of information that already exists on the Internet, I highly doubt you will reach your goals in this kickstarter. I think you are going to have to look long and hard at making something unique before you start asking for money.

[Xander]

I will go against the grain here but I feel we need to have a different perspective expressed. This is addressed to everyone and no one in particular:

Scans are not artistic expression, even when you edit it heavily. It should not be protected as if it was your own intellectual property.

We are talking about digitization of both common and rare printed material that may not survive you (or your own more or less unknown website or even your interest in the hobby). Thank you for doing the work, but it should not belong to you simply because you took the time to scan it. This is madness and nonsense, it means forcing everyone out there that have a need for the material to find it and redo a scan, a simple scan of an intellectual property that you did not own either. And in the worst cases, the material is so rare that we are at risk of losing it if we lose your copy. Why would it belongs to you? You did not make it, you reproduced it. Share it for prosperity with everyone.

The same thing goes for information gathered about a games (date of publication, details about variants, who worked on the game, etc...). Guys, this is public information, we cannot expect to copyright it. If you write a review, an article, an analysis about a game/genre/system then yeah it's an original creation and you should be rightfully pissed if someone steal it from you. But you cannot be pissed if someone copy a picture of a game or a fact about it that you found out, those information are at risk of disappearing (it happened to me quite a few times with rare prototypes, the original website disappeared and the info is lost forever) and they are not your own original creation.

I know that some people put a lot of their free time to populate the databases already out there and really did some hard work digging some rare information, but I think it's completely irresponsible to want to lock those information down under the pretext that whoever did the hard work finding them do not want to share it.

TL;DR: Information is free, try to see the bigger picture, think open source.

[HappehLemons]

I'll tell you, if you really are going around to other websites, and taking images if they don't explicitly say "don't take these images", I can guarantee you that you will not win over many friends in the classic gaming community. When I make scans for my website, it can take upwards of an hour to scan and edit to make it look nice. Even with a staff of seven people, I don't see how you could have possibly made an archive of over 100,000 games in two and a half years without taking stuff from other websites. In a quick look at a few pages, there are clearly some fan-made scans used on your site, and somehow I doubt you ever got permission to use those. As an example, your page on The Legend of Zelda (http://archive.vg/game/4682/) clearly has scans that were taken from Nintendo Age (http://www.nintendoage.com/index.cfm?FuseAction=Element.View&pId=1&egID=1304&lgID=6441&sID=2445).

These kinds of drams have happened before. Look at the case of NES Land (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?15132-NES-Land!). Or how about when Playstation Museum started copying all of the images from Game Rave (http://www.playstationcollecting.com/auth/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=59&threadid=72079)? I certainly have had cases where people have taken images off my site and used them without permission (I have seen my scans of rare games like the Donkey Kong Country Competition Cart used in Ebay auctions).

If your site is basically a conglomerate of information that already exists on the Internet, I highly doubt you will reach your goals in this kickstarter. I think you are going to have to look long and hard at making something unique before you start asking for money.

We're taking all these concerns very seriously. Of proof-of-concept website has allowed users to upload all their own images and we uploaded many test images during the early testing phases when the website was first launched. At the time we currently didn't have the proper models in place to check all of our uploaded content, a feature that will without a doubt be present in our 2.0 version. We understand how important it is to the community that we receive proper permissions to use any content at all. Please take our proof website with a grain of salt.

[badinsults]

I will go against the grain here but I feel we need to have a different perspective expressed. This is addressed to everyone and no one in particular:

Scans are not artistic expression, even when you edit it heavily. It should not be protected as if it was your own intellectual property.

We are talking about digitization of both common and rare printed material that may not survive you (or your own more or less unknown website or even your interest in the hobby). Thank you for doing the work, but it should not belong to you simply because you took the time to scan it. This is madness and nonsense, it means forcing everyone out there that have a need for the material to find it and redo a scan, a simple scan of an intellectual property that you did not own either. And in the worst cases, the material is so rare that we are at risk of losing it if we lose your copy. Why would it belongs to you? You did not make it, you reproduced it. Share it for prosperity with everyone.

The same thing goes for information gathered about a games (date of publication, details about variants, who worked on the game, etc...). Guys, this is public information, we cannot expect to copyright it. If you write a review, an article, an analysis about a game/genre/system then yeah it's an original creation and you should be rightfully pissed if someone steal it from you. But you cannot be pissed if someone copy a picture of a game or a fact about it that you found out, those information are at risk of disappearing (it happened to me quite a few times with rare prototypes, the original website disappeared and the info is lost forever) and they are not your own original creation.

I know that some people put a lot of their free time to populate the databases already out there and really did some hard work digging some rare information, but I think it's completely irresponsible to want to lock those information down under the pretext that whoever did the hard work finding them do not want to share it.

TL;DR: Information is free, try to see the bigger picture, think open source.



Although you are right that the scans that I edit are technically not mine because of copyright laws (and technically none of us does), it still is pissing off the very people who are most interested in video game archiving when they take these images. If someone went and took all of the scans that I spent tens to hundreds of hours working on without permission or attribution, I think I have a legitimate gripe. Although I have not seen this happen on a wide scale with the material off my website, it has happened with other people that I know. I've had my site up for over 10 years now, I don't see how there is any concern about the longevity of the information contained in it. And before you accuse me of "hoarding" this information, I have almost never rejected any request from people who asked to use material off my site.

[Bojay1997]

Although you are right that the scans that I edit are technically not mine because of copyright laws (and technically none of us does), it still is pissing off the very people who are most interested in video game archiving when they take these images. If someone went and took all of the scans that I spent tens to hundreds of hours working on without permission or attribution, I think I have a legitimate gripe. Although I have not seen this happen on a wide scale with the material off my website, it has happened with other people that I know. I've had my site up for over 10 years now, I don't see how there is any concern about the longevity of the information contained in it. And before you accuse me of "hoarding" this information, I have almost never rejected any request from people who asked to use material off my site.

Thank you for posting this. That's really my whole issue with this venture. There appears to be nothing new or unique about it other than the fact that they are taking information that is already easily and readily available elsewhere and simply putting it into their own database. If there was some risk that all of the many websites that have been around for a decade plus were going to suddenly go away then I could understand the need for something like this. As it stands, many hobbyists like yourself have put countless hours into preserving all of these materials. The fact that someone wants to now take all that hard work and create their own brand around it feels wrong to me. In looking at their plan, they are even going to reimburse themselves $6K for taking the time to work on the project. I'm pretty sure none of the people from whom they are going to be obtaining information (presumably with permission now given what the OP has posted in the subsequent posts) ever took a salary or sought reimbursement for their hard work or time.

I'm all for people creating websites and resources and even businesses that cater to video game players and collectors. I am not, however, supportive of ventures like this that are simply repackaging stuff that is already out there and bringing nothing new to the table.

[Kiddo]

I'm not entirely sure if this suggestion is of any use, but if it quells concerns about a lack of original content on the site, how about I propose some of you guys help with Satellaview research (http://superfamicom.org/blog/) or try recording gameplay of a load of Japan-only Sega Pico/Beena games? (http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBxzJydCQYLPjj0dSrR4p6Nt1-Hv0NTMd) Translations and guides for PC-FX games might be a neat idea, too. I recall that I wrote a Battle Heat guide for Rising Stuff, but when the site went down, so did my writeup. :<

There's still a whole load of ways to build upon an archive of some kind without merely copying other's work.

[portnoyd]

Bojay1997, would you kindly tell HappehLemons what your profession is. It might help shore up this topic a little quicker if he knew he was talking to.

[Xander]

Bojay1997, would you kindly tell HappehLemons what your profession is. It might help shore up this topic a little quicker if he knew he was talking to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority ?

I want to know now! Who is Bojay1997?! :)

[sloan]

Whole lotta panties in a bunch on this thread.

To the OP: if you have 'borrowed' materials from various websites, then you have some decisions to make. To make the purists happy, you would need to ask and receive permission, and note that on your site, for each and every scan or image published.

If yours is a conglomeration of data gleaned from volunteers, generous sites, and/or friends and family, then no worries. Truth be told, if it were my database/site, I would run every 'borrowed' image through a quick photoshop edit before posting. Mirroring, cropping, sharpening, and brightening or darkening can go a long way. There are even blurring and artistic processing brushes in photoshop and similar programs that will truly make each image your own.

To me, it does not matter. I think the more gaming data that is made available, the better. Truth is that the original publishers/copyright holders are the only ones with any real vested interest anyway. Are you planning on earning a monetary profit from this database? If not, then who cares. You will never make everyone happy, so do the best you can and keep on going.

Best wishes in your pursuits.

[JSoup]

Again, don't let that stand in your way of your goals, but generally speaking, I'm sure you're aware that we represent a pretty curmudgeonly portion of the community.

You say curmudgeonly, I say nitpicky and honest. :D

[Greg2600]

You can't just take images from other websites without asking. You'll be labeled a pariah.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

You say curmudgeonly, I say nitpicky and honest. :D

You say potato, I say semantics.

[JSoup]

You say potato, I say semantics.

Ah, let's ban the whole thing.

[bb_hood]

Ive never really understood the need for an archive with complete hi-res scans of manuals and box art. Sure watermarks suck but then you dont get people making fake inserts/manuals/labels etc..

Also, on the fundraising site you claim:
Archive aims to be the ultimate gaming website. But what does that even mean? It’s a website that has everything anyone could ever ask for regarding information about video games!

Now, without taking (or requesting) other people's work, how can you even expect to even come close to the amount of content that GameFaqs has to offer? THAT site is a huge wealth of information when it comes to walkthroughs. Most of the walkthroughs on that site are very detailed and lengthy, and the authors always note that their work is copyrighted and they request permission for any reproduction.

When it comes to editorial content, well I kinda feel like there is too much of this already. Ever since the AVGN we have seen countless silly/humorous reviews, product un-boxings, and nostalgic recollections. Some entertaining, many just painful to watch. How many times to we have to be told that Zelda, Mario, Megaman and Contra are great games? Ive got no problem with people doing this, but asking for money for editorial content from 'passionate' gamers just kinda irks me in a certain way.

Another thing your site says is:
We believe in complete transparency here, and we are in no way looking to profit off other people’s hard work!

then this:
Pay ourselves! We all want to dedicate more time to Archive than we currently do, but that would mean taking time off of work. Archive will be crunching for the next couple months, and to make sure our launch goes as smoothly and quickly as possible some of us will need to solely dedicate our time to the project. We'll be putting $6,000 into ensuring 100% Archive manpower!

So really, your small team of 7 people will create the ultimate video game web site without using other people's work AT ALL? Just not gonna happen. Then you claim that 6000$ of donations will go to the creators of the archive, and another 7000$ will goto hiring more people. Im really not trying to sound like a jerk but it kinda pisses me off when people ask for non-charitable donations. Out of the 25,000 you hope to raise, 6000 will be kept by staff and 6-8000 will goto the 'rewards' which I must say are laughable. Seriously, I donate 500$ and I get to WATCH A MOVIE ONLINE with someone I dont know???? What kind of loser would be interested in that. I donate 250$ I get a one-on-one phone call? WOW!! So you really plan on spending around 8000 on T-shirts, plaques, and posters? I dont see how THAT makes sense.

Really not trying to be overly negative but I would much rather donate money to the upcoming Summer Games Done Quick marathon (or any other marathon ran by Speed Demos Archive). THOSE are passionate gamers, they always raise alot of money and it always goes to a genuinely good cause.

[Aussie2B]

You say curmudgeonly, I say nitpicky and honest. :D

Can't I be nitpicky, honest, AND curmudgeonly? :P

[mossy_11]

Hey guys, I'm one of the other team members of Archive.vg. (The Content Editor, to be precise.) I thought I should jump in here and explain a few things.

First, editorial content. I'm a professional journalist. Like, that's what I do for a living. The stuff I write for the Archive blog isn't the regular classic gaming content you find elsewhere. I do features on game preservation (http://archive.vg/blog/12-feature/36-the-perils-challenges-and-uncertainty-of-collecting-and-preserving-video-games) (this was nominated for an award, I might add), the history of THQ's logos and branding (http://archive.vg/blog/12-feature/97-the-history-of-thq-through-its-logos-and-branding), a game that took 10 years to make (http://archive.vg/blog/12-feature/80-a-fool-and-his-money-cliff-johnson-s-long-journey-to-develop-a-sequel-to-a-25-year-old-game), and all sorts of other things. I don't write much news, but when I do it's with extra legwork and interviews. I've talked to the guy who wrote (http://archive.vg/blog/21-news/91-writing-the-manual-on-the-virtual-boy) a technical manual for the Virtual Boy, and another (http://archive.vg/blog/101) who made a Game Boy emulator for the iPhone 5. Then I also put together a "From The Archive" series where I pick a random game to play and write about, as well as a monthly roundup of great long-form writing about games elsewhere on the Web.

The stuff I write for Archive, basically, is high-quality content that I could be doing elsewhere for money. Content that I do write elsewhere (http://www.polygon.com/features/2013/7/3/4483276/kenya-games-industry) for money (instead of for free on Archive). That $6,000 for ourselves is mostly for content creation. I would take around half and work full time for a month producing content for Archive — articles of all kinds, descriptions and screens of games for the database, maybe systems pages, etc. HappehLemons would take around half as well, and use that to work part time creating videos like this Zelda development documentary (http://archive.vg/forums/content-discussions/72-the-developmental-history-of-zelda-ocarina-of-time-part-3) for two months. Instead of doing it in our free time, never managing to keep to a schedule, we'd be able to work on it properly for a short period.

HappehLemons put together the campaign on his own, and I know it has some problems. The whole "Ultimate Gaming Site" thing is maybe a bit over the top. But his heart is in the right place and I think he's done a fine job trying to get people excited about Archive.

We aren't trying to rip anybody off. We're doing this for the good of the gaming community, because we saw a hole in what's available. Our founder explained the origins of the site (http://archive.vg/blog/8-site-news/35-welcome-to-the-archive) in a post back when we launched the 1.0 beta last year. We want to help people who aren't as crazy into this as you guys. It's a pain when you have to visit a dozen different sites separately to find what you're after. We won't host everything, but we will act like an information hub — pushing people across to where the content sits in cases where we/our community didn't create it.

Our API is already used by developers of several apps, the best example perhaps being OpenEmu. I understand that there are plans for a paid tier in future, which would be for commercial uses and would finance our hosting/server costs. Otherwise we're not trying to make money; we're just trying to build something great, and in the process we need to spend a bit both on outside help and on feeding ourselves for the periods in which we step up temporarily from hobbyist to full-time/part-time workers.

I can't speak for how my colleagues may or may not operate, but I assure you that anything I have a direct hand in will always be thoroughly sourced and (if relevant) cleared for permission. I'm a journalist; my integrity demands it.

[bb_hood]

The stuff I write for Archive, basically, is high-quality content that I could be doing elsewhere for money. Content that I do write elsewhere (http://www.polygon.com/features/2013/7/3/4483276/kenya-games-industry) for money (instead of for free on Archive). That $6,000 for ourselves is mostly for content creation. I would take around half and work full time for a month producing content for Archive — articles of all kinds, descriptions and screens of games for the database, maybe systems pages, etc. HappehLemons would take around half as well, and use that to work part time creating videos like this Zelda development documentary (http://archive.vg/forums/content-discussions/72-the-developmental-history-of-zelda-ocarina-of-time-part-3) for two months. Instead of doing it in our free time, never managing to keep to a schedule, we'd be able to work on it properly for a short period.

So basically you are asking for 3000$ in donations so you can write about video games for one month?





It's a pain when you have to visit a dozen different sites separately to find what you're after. We won't host everything, but we will act like an information hub — pushing people across to where the content sits in cases where we/our community didn't create it.


So basically this will be a site with links to other sites with better, more in-depth info?
Its really not hard or a pain to find info on video games online. For every system there are already dedicated sites which have been around for years and years. I really dont see how you could make an in-depth site that contains information NOT taken from other sites. It seems like another archive would just be a huge re-hash of all the info already out there.

[mossy_11]

So basically you are asking for 3000$ in donations so you can write about video games for one month?

I suppose that's one way of looking at it. Do you have a problem with that? Writing is my livelihood, and I happen to be very good at it. That money is less than I would make a month on staff at a major games website. I could put together a few fantastic long-form feature articles and many shorter ones related to games and the people who make them in that time. I could do certain kinds of research that simply aren't feasible when I'm juggling multiple clients and assignments in totally different fields. Do you think that people should not be compensated for their time, or that journalists should not be paid?


So basically this will be a site with links to other sites with better, more in-depth info?
Its really not hard or a pain to find info on video games online. For every system there are already dedicated sites which have been around for years and years. I really dont see how you could make an in-depth site that contains information NOT taken from other sites. It seems like another archive would just be a huge re-hash of all the info already out there.

No. There may be links to articles and FAQs and videos of high standard elsewhere, but the core of the site will be a well-presented and neatly-laid-out database comprising all sorts of general information about more than 100,000 games together with original and unique content created by us and our community.

You need to step back for a moment and think about this from the perspective of someone not embedded in the current community for this kind of thing. They want an IMDb, a Wikipedia, an Amazon — something that has a bit of information about everything, from which they can branch out to deeper research in a specific topic. Having to go to Planet Virtual Boy, World of Spectrum, Lemon Amiga, Digital Press, RF Generation, Giant Bomb, Replacement Docs, GameFAQs, MobyGames, and so on is just going to confuse and frustrate them. They just want something simple; they just want to quickly look up a few things and get a consistent experience along the way.

We're not so much building something for people like you — you're already covered by what exists, and I don't get the impression that you care much about design. We are for the rest of the gaming community — the ones who don't know about every single specialist archive, and don't really care about individual systems. The idea, at its core, is to build something that combines GameFAQs with MobyGames and puts it within a forward-looking architecture, a design that encourages discovery and exploration, and a fresh slate that's free from the politics and baggage those sites carry.

Excuse us for being ambitious, but we thought we could do a better job than the big players precisely because we're small and agile. And we built an API so that anyone can use our database — without even having to visit our website.

[JSoup]

I suppose that's one way of looking at it. Do you have a problem with that? Writing is my livelihood, and I happen to be very good at it. That money is less than I would make a month on staff at a major games website. I could put together a few fantastic long-form feature articles and many shorter ones related to games and the people who make them in that time. I could do certain kinds of research that simply aren't feasible when I'm juggling multiple clients and assignments in totally different fields. Do you think that people should not be compensated for their time, or that journalists should not be paid?

Pardon us for not swooning over your fancy qualifications, but I'd imagine many of us are more interested in the "why is this archive thing worth our money and better than what already exists" than the potential puff pieces you're hanging in front of us like so much fish bait. There are a number of decent writers/reviewer out there, many of them have been members of the various sections of the community for years, that produce free content all the damn time. But we should fawn, swoon and toss money to you because "I'm a professional!"


You need to step back for a moment and think about this from the perspective of someone not embedded in the current community for this kind of thing. They want an IMDb, a Wikipedia, an Amazon — something that has a bit of information about everything, from which they can branch out to deeper research in a specific topic. Having to go to Planet Virtual Boy, World of Spectrum, Lemon Amiga, Digital Press, RF Generation, Giant Bomb, Replacement Docs, GameFAQs, MobyGames, and so on is just going to confuse and frustrate them. They just want something simple; they just want to quickly look up a few things and get a consistent experience along the way.

And you know this because you polled all of those sites, gathered statistics and have mathematically proven that this is what people want/need?
Or are you just cooking up a big batch of assumption stew?


We're not so much building something for people like you — you're already covered by what exists, and I don't get the impression that you care much about design. We are for the rest of the gaming community — the ones who don't know about every single specialist archive, and don't really care about individual systems.

So you guys want $25K to make a site for a handful of special flowers that lack the ability to use Google?

[Aussie2B]

I find the concept of this supposed audience you guys are shooting for pretty perplexing. If you're not targeting those who are deeply involved in gaming and collecting, why do you think these more casual players would even care about stuff like Virtual Boy and Spectrum? They'd be far more inclined to look up general info on popular games, which they can already get from countless other sites and be satisfied. If you guys really do want to offer something new and better, I think it's precisely the diehard players/collectors you need to go after, because the information they seek may genuinely not be covered well elsewhere.

I don't know, this whole project sounds like it's going to go the way of Fresh Baked Games (I'm probably the only person here who even remembers the site).

Conversely, for a (relative) success story, I think a lot can be learned from Honestgamers. For all intents and purposes, it's a GameFAQs copycat, but they figured out an area in which GameFAQs was weak, one that people complained about, and they focused on filling that need. In this case, they made a site for review writers where quality standards are extremely high and the contributors are highly valued, with a community built around them. The site basically destroyed what little of a reviewing community GameFAQs had when all the talented writers abandoned ship after discovering how much better Honestgamers was suiting their needs and wants.

[bb_hood]

I suppose that's one way of looking at it. Do you have a problem with that? Writing is my livelihood, and I happen to be very good at it. That money is less than I would make a month on staff at a major games website. I could put together a few fantastic long-form feature articles and many shorter ones related to games and the people who make them in that time. I could do certain kinds of research that simply aren't feasible when I'm juggling multiple clients and assignments in totally different fields. Do you think that people should not be compensated for their time, or that journalists should not be paid?



No. There may be links to articles and FAQs and videos of high standard elsewhere, but the core of the site will be a well-presented and neatly-laid-out database comprising all sorts of general information about more than 100,000 games together with original and unique content created by us and our community.

You need to step back for a moment and think about this from the perspective of someone not embedded in the current community for this kind of thing. They want an IMDb, a Wikipedia, an Amazon — something that has a bit of information about everything, from which they can branch out to deeper research in a specific topic. Having to go to Planet Virtual Boy, World of Spectrum, Lemon Amiga, Digital Press, RF Generation, Giant Bomb, Replacement Docs, GameFAQs, MobyGames, and so on is just going to confuse and frustrate them. They just want something simple; they just want to quickly look up a few things and get a consistent experience along the way.

We're not so much building something for people like you — you're already covered by what exists, and I don't get the impression that you care much about design. We are for the rest of the gaming community — the ones who don't know about every single specialist archive, and don't really care about individual systems. The idea, at its core, is to build something that combines GameFAQs with MobyGames and puts it within a forward-looking architecture, a design that encourages discovery and exploration, and a fresh slate that's free from the politics and baggage those sites carry.

Excuse us for being ambitious, but we thought we could do a better job than the big players precisely because we're small and agile. And we built an API so that anyone can use our database — without even having to visit our website.

Do Professional Journalists usually ask to be paid in the form of donations?
You make it sound like going to sites such as Digital Press, Atari Age, Pcengine forums, Sega-16 forums or NintendoAge is some type of cryptic challenge. Give me a break. You are the ones with you hands out asking for thousands of dollars.
Ya know, Id much rather listen to people who really play and collect video games than people who just claim to be professionals. It sounds like you are making a site target towards noobs and asking for alot of money. I checked out your archive site and it seems to be mainly screenshots of many popular and common games with vague descriptions. Nothing you cant get from looking on the back of the game box.


You know what I do like? When people who are passionate about their hobby write well-informed articles and DO NOT ask for money, like this guy:
http://satoshimatrix.wordpress.com/

[JSoup]

Holy crap, I had forgotten about HonestGamers. Not sure if they still do, but at one time they posted FAQs as well. HonestGamer advertised on the FAQ Contributors board at one point and a bunch of people either added HG to their approved sites list or otherwise moved to the site altogether. I think I used to have a social blog there at one point.

[Aussie2B]

Yeah, the FAQs are gone from HonestGamers, as is pretty much everything but the reviews. They tried to do a bit of everything like GameFAQs, but they eventually realized the pointlessness of the redundancy and wisely decided to strip it down to what they really excelled at.


You know what I do like? When people who are passionate about their hobby write well-informed articles and DO NOT ask for money, like this guy:
http://satoshimatrix.wordpress.com/

I don't think there's anything wrong with writers who do quality work wanting to get paid, and I think it's sad that so many don't, or get paid a pathetically small amount. I don't think it's really a positive thing to encourage people to not value their time and work and not believe it's worth being compensated for. It's attitudes like that that have made a lot of entertainment industries a mess. Games (both production and journalism), anime, manga, music, etc. are rife with talented people getting taken advantage of. Revolving doors of unpaid interns doing work that should go to experienced employees, said experienced employees getting paid crap or kicked to the curb in favor of an eager newbie willing to work for peanuts, it's all a huge problem, and it all stems from this "everything should be free" culture and the talented fans who love their hobbies so much that they go along with it even when it's not in their best interests. And, to no big surprise, it brings down the quality of professional products because if you're trying to make a living and getting paid squat, you're not going to be at your best (especially in cases like the manga industry where you may be paid per page, forcing you to rush just to make a half-way acceptable hourly wage), and there's the simple fact that low wages don't keep talented people around for long so the industries are constantly bringing in new, less experienced, and, in turn, less skilled people.

That said, asking for financial backers without a solid explanation of what they'll be getting and why it's worth the money is about the worst way to get compensated for your work. If you want to make money off a site, put up advertisements, request donations, offer subscriptions, or use any number of other strategies.

[bb_hood]

Yeah, the FAQs are gone from HonestGamers, as is pretty much everything but the reviews. They tried to do a bit of everything like GameFAQs, but they eventually realized the pointlessness of the redundancy and wisely decided to strip it down to what they really excelled at.



I don't think there's anything wrong with writers who do quality work wanting to get paid, and I think it's sad that so many don't, or get paid a pathetically small amount. I don't think it's really a positive thing to encourage people to not value their time and work and not believe it's worth being compensated for. It's attitudes like that that have made a lot of entertainment industries a mess. Games (both production and journalism), anime, manga, music, etc. are rife with talented people getting taken advantage of. Revolving doors of unpaid interns doing work that should go to experienced employees, said experienced employees getting paid crap or kicked to the curb in favor of an eager newbie willing to work for peanuts, it's all a huge problem, and it all stems from this "everything should be free" culture and the talented fans who love their hobbies so much that they go along with it even when it's not in their best interests. And, to no big surprise, it brings down the quality of professional products because if you're trying to make a living and getting paid squat, you're not going to be at your best (especially in cases like the manga industry where you may be paid per page, forcing you to rush just to make a half-way acceptable hourly wage), and there's the simple fact that low wages don't keep talented people around for long so the industries are constantly bringing in new, less experienced, and, in turn, less skilled people.

That said, asking for financial backers without a solid explanation of what they'll be getting and why it's worth the money is about the worst way to get compensated for your work. If you want to make money off a site, put up advertisements, request donations, offer subscriptions, or use any number of other strategies.

Dont get me wrong, Im not saying that everything should be free. I think that people with a genuine interest in the subject matter will probably have better insight and more interesting views, especially when they do NOT EXPECTING COMPENSATION. I think quality work should speak for itself and just shouldnt require donations.
This whole thing just feels like a quick cash-grab by the people involved. Look at how the finances are allocated towards the 'rewards'. 6-8000$ of DONATIONS is going to pay for rewards which include a poster at 60$, a t-shirt at 75$, and a plaque at 100$. Like seriously, why offer this crap if you wanna just make some wonderful site that benefits the gaming community? Nobody would pay 60$/75$/100$ for a poster, tshirt, or plaque, so why offer them when producing this stuff takes funds away from the project? And what if all the donations are made in less than 60$ increments? Where does the remainder of that 6-8000$ in donations end up? In someone's pockets. Like seriously it seems like this archive site can be created for way less.

This reminds me soo much of the kickstarter to produce those cheetahmen 2 carts, except that by donating like 60$ you actually got a repro cart.

[JSoup]

I find the concept of this supposed audience you guys are shooting for pretty perplexing. If you're not targeting those who are deeply involved in gaming and collecting, why do you think these more casual players would even care about stuff like Virtual Boy and Spectrum? They'd be far more inclined to look up general info on popular games, which they can already get from countless other sites and be satisfied. If you guys really do want to offer something new and better, I think it's precisely the diehard players/collectors you need to go after, because the information they seek may genuinely not be covered well elsewhere.

Additionally, if you're not shooting for "us", then when are you asking "us" for support?

[Xander]

Additionally, if you're not shooting for "us", then when are you asking "us" for support?

The small circlejerk forming in this topic might not be completely representative of what is "us". DP is still a fairly large community.

Maybe I'm not hardcore enough into the hobby, but I do understand the business case behind archive.vg, I'm fine with the way they gathered information and I do think there is a gap to be filled in the variety of website we have right now.

[JSoup]

The small circlejerk forming in this topic might not be completely representative of what is "us". DP is still a fairly large community.

When I said "us" I wasn't speaking specifically about DP. Earlier on it was indicated that this really wasn't for the people most likely to use/need the type of information they are trying to catalog, namely collectors. That is the "us" group I was referring to.

[Xander]

When I said "us" I wasn't speaking specifically about DP. Earlier on it was indicated that this really wasn't for the people most likely to use/need the type of information they are trying to catalog, namely collectors. That is the "us" group I was referring to.

The small circlejerk forming in this topic might not be completely representative of what is "us". Video game collectors form a large community.

[JSoup]

The small circlejerk forming in this topic might not be completely representative of what is "us". Video game collectors form a large community.

It's getting fairly similar circlejerks on other classic gaming forums, so I'm going with "close enough". And even if it's not close enough, that doesn't change the my point or my question.

[HappehLemons]

Dont get me wrong, Im not saying that everything should be free. I think that people with a genuine interest in the subject matter will probably have better insight and more interesting views, especially when they do NOT EXPECTING COMPENSATION. I think quality work should speak for itself and just shouldnt require donations.
This whole thing just feels like a quick cash-grab by the people involved. Look at how the finances are allocated towards the 'rewards'. 6-8000$ of DONATIONS is going to pay for rewards which include a poster at 60$, a t-shirt at 75$, and a plaque at 100$. Like seriously, why offer this crap if you wanna just make some wonderful site that benefits the gaming community? Nobody would pay 60$/75$/100$ for a poster, tshirt, or plaque, so why offer them when producing this stuff takes funds away from the project? And what if all the donations are made in less than 60$ increments? Where does the remainder of that 6-8000$ in donations end up? In someone's pockets. Like seriously it seems like this archive site can be created for way less.

This reminds me soo much of the kickstarter to produce those cheetahmen 2 carts, except that by donating like 60$ you actually got a repro cart.

You're completely misunderstanding that point of this campaign. We're not selling shirts, posters or anything. No one is paying $75 for a shirt. These are just perks to anyone who donates. People who are donating are people who simply want to see out website created, not people looking for a new t-shirt. They are excited just like us, and will get a little piece of memorabilia. Ultimately we are providing service to everyone that won't cost our users anything to use. The cheetahmen 2 kickstarter goal was to sell a physical item, we are not. Our goal is to provide a free database service to anyone who wants to use it, and much more.

There are gaps in all current database, and we're looking to fill them. They are plagued by limited search features, basic designs and rely on a small community to provide their information base. It's not limited to this though, how can you say that there's no need for a website like this, as if all information about videogames ever is already all documented. It's not. We are completely embracing, and giving users the tools and the home for adding complete information to any game. Not only that! There's tons of information about games that is not available online, and not to mention that most of it (Especially the interesting stuff) is fractioned all over and very difficult to find. I alone spent at least six months stringing together information about Zelda that has never been properly documented or timelined just so people could understand it. The first part alone has gotten over 80,000 views, and almost all the people who watched it were huge Zelda fans, but not familiar at all with the history I was going over (Most didn't even know the history existed). And that's Zelda we're talking about, one of the most popular games in existence.

We are building a community that will be excited to add information to games that wont be like any other website anyone has seen before. We're not just building an amazing database, we want to inform people about it too. People will come to come to our website and find out that they want to learn about games they didn't even know existed.

We're also offering developers to have access to our database free. What other websites do this?

[badinsults]

I think you really should stop the fundraiser and start demonstrating some of this unique content. At the moment, I'm not seeing it.

I mean, you are going in a very backwards way about making this site. Usually a website builds a strong community by presenting something that fills a niche, and gives people a reason to want to contribute. What really makes you think that people will start submitting things to your website, when a place like Gamefaqs has pretty much the exact same information, but with the added benefit of nearly 15 years of user submissions? If you want your site to be about presenting historical information about a game, that is fine, but it really should be something unique.

Take for instance my article on Star Fox 2 (http://www.snescentral.com/article.php?id=0077). I spent over a month delving into the depths of the Internet and gaming magazines to find as much information on this game as possible. I found a lot of information that dispelled misconceptions about the game, and included a long list of primary sources. I also played the crap out of the game, to give my own opinion on it. If you were creating a site that did articles this, then I could see some value in it. There is more to preserving the history of games than trawling the Internet for a bunch of screenshots, scans, and generic descriptions of the game. Producing such content indeed is time consuming, but I think it is worth it. Producing a large site with pages like this would require the efforts of more than 7 people. I also doubt that there would be much profit in it. But if the lot of you start making a bunch of high quality, informative pages with original content, including sources, it would indeed fill a niche that no one has done yet. Get enough pages done, and you would start getting a community with submissions.

Right now, you seem preoccupied on site design and getting it to work on different platforms. Though it is good to keep that in mind, the real reason that people will use your site is original content. I just don't see what your plan for that is. I think it would be a better idea to start with a smaller website with focused pages on a few key games, rather than having a massive database containing every game with little to no content.

[Rob2600]

HappehLemons and mossy_11, I've said it before and I'll say it again: many "hardcore" gamers are extremely cheap and expect everything for free, or as close to it as possible. Many of them live in an alternate reality where $60 AAA new releases should only cost $10, and all online editorial content is created and distributed for free, with no cost of operations. In their minds, video game writers, webmasters, programmers, and artists don't have mouths to feed or bills to pay.

Remember, these are the same gamers who see absolutely nothing wrong with reproducing (bootlegging) old video games and profiting from other people's work and creativity.

I think their cheap, delusional mentality will be your biggest obstacle to reaching your fundraising goal. Good luck.

[Bojay1997]

The small circlejerk forming in this topic might not be completely representative of what is "us". DP is still a fairly large community.

Maybe I'm not hardcore enough into the hobby, but I do understand the business case behind archive.vg, I'm fine with the way they gathered information and I do think there is a gap to be filled in the variety of website we have right now.

Please, explain this alleged business case to me and what "gap" it fills. They've now said their target is people who don't already access all the niche resources many of us here do. That sounds like non-collector, non-retro gamers for the most part. Why would those people bother to contribute either financially or with information to build a site they don't even use yet, let alone access that site on a regular basis? I would submit that the target audience for this "archive" site doesn't exist and it's never going to be detailed enough to appeal to people who are interested in either collecting, playing or learning more about the history of older games. It's as if these guys have never heard of Google and we're in some parallel 1994 universe where nobody is really sure if the Internet is going to take off on the consumer adoption side or not.

[Bojay1997]

HappehLemons and mossy_11, I've said it before and I'll say it again: many "hardcore" gamers are extremely cheap and expect everything for free, or as close to it as possible. Many of them live in an alternate reality where $60 AAA new releases should only cost $10, and all online editorial content is created and distributed for free, with no cost of operations. In their minds, video game writers, webmasters, programmers, and artists don't have mouths to feed or bills to pay.

Remember, these are the same gamers who see absolutely nothing wrong with reproducing (bootlegging) old video games and profiting from other people's work and creativity.

I think their cheap, delusional mentality will be your biggest obstacle to reaching your fundraising goal. Good luck.

I'm not sure what "hardcore" gamers are, but in my experience the people here and elsewhere who populate the forums of the numerous existing classic or retro gaming websites are extremely generous with their time and money. Having said that, they are also generally very intelligent and know when something doesn't sound logical or make sense from a business or community perspective. I personally have no issue with someone creating a business around writing or collecting or any other form of content that they have created. The problem I have here is that there is no such content here, just a rehash of things that are already widely available elsewhere with a two second Google search.

We've seen this same business model again and again over the years and ultimately these guys come and go without ever having contributed much to the overall community of knowledge. Sometimes it's someone writing a book about video games or a new review site or some other business involving video games. The only difference here is that they want you to pay them for the time up front without any kind of guarantee that what they generate in that time will be of value or interest. If they really want financial support for their efforts, the way to do it is to create something small but unique and compelling to begin with and then drive traffic to that content building more and more over time thus generating more users and more potential advertising revenue or a pool of users who will financially support greater expansion. Coming here with no reputation and not much to show what this "archive" is intended to be is just foolish and amateurish.

[HappehLemons]

Please, explain this alleged business case to me and what "gap" it fills. They've now said their target is people who don't already access all the niche resources many of us here do. That sounds like non-collector, non-retro gamers for the most part. Why would those people bother to contribute either financially or with information to build a site they don't even use yet, let alone access that site on a regular basis? I would submit that the target audience for this "archive" site doesn't exist and it's never going to be detailed enough to appeal to people who are interested in either collecting, playing or learning more about the history of older games. It's as if these guys have never heard of Google and we're in some parallel 1994 universe where nobody is really sure if the Internet is going to take off on the consumer adoption side or not.



There are gaps in all current database, and we're looking to fill them. They are plagued by limited search features, basic designs and rely on a small community to provide their information base. It's not limited to this though, how can you say that there's no need for a website like this, as if all information about videogames ever is already all documented. It's not. We are completely embracing, and giving users the tools and the home for adding complete information to any game. Not only that! There's tons of information about games that is not available online, and not to mention that most of it (Especially the interesting stuff) is fractioned all over and very difficult to find. I alone spent at least six months stringing together information about Zelda that has never been properly documented or timelined just so people could understand it. The first part alone has gotten over 80,000 views, and almost all the people who watched it were huge Zelda fans, but not familiar at all with the history I was going over (Most didn't even know the history existed). And that's Zelda we're talking about, one of the most popular games in existence.

But even beyond everything I've mentioned that's standard info that's not properly documented (Like game manuals) and that any databases can't be fully searched (What database lets you search multiplayer support?) which is considered standard information there's a lot more information out there that has yet to be properly documented. This goes far beyond basic back of the box information and goes all the way to each individual game history. You can check you my Zelda Developmental History video for a example of that.

Not only are we trying to unite existing videogame info onto one page, AND complete information for games that isn't complete yet AND give people the tools to search and find exactly what they're looking for were also looking to do more then this by giving each games its own personal home virtually giving every games a chance to tell its own unique story AND we're giving developers the tools to use our database for whatever they want.

You're resentment for our website is fine, if you are not intrested in us you're not and there's nothing we can do about that. But our goals extend so much beyond what any database has in the past. I find it so strange that someone is so against helping the community grow and gather information for everyone to use.

[Bojay1997]

But even beyond everything I've mentioned that's standard info that's not properly documented (Like game manuals) and that any databases can't be fully searched (What database lets you search multiplayer support?) which is considered standard information there's a lot more information out there that has yet to be properly documented. This goes far beyond basic back of the box information and goes all the way to each individual game history. You can check you my Zelda Developmental History video for a example of that.

Not only are we trying to unite existing videogame info onto one page, AND complete information for games that isn't complete yet AND give people the tools to search and find exactly what they're looking for were also looking to do more then this by giving each games its own personal home virtually giving every games a chance to tell its own unique story AND we're giving developers the tools to use our database for whatever they want.

You're resentment for our website is fine, if you are not intrested in us you're not and there's nothing we can do about that. But our goals extend so much beyond what any database has in the past. I find it so strange that someone is so against helping the community grow and gather information for everyone to use.

All of what you are saying would make perfect sense if this was 1991 and people were still buying CD-Rom towers to store vast amounts of information for research. Fortunately, anyone anywhere on the planet now has free access to Google. You can literally type the name of a game in along with a query such as "does X game have multiplayer" and I guarantee that 99.9% of the time, you will get a bunch of accurate responses without ever having to join specific websites or get involved in a community. Chances are you will also find reviews of the game both from the time and more recent, along with images of the box, screen shots, gameplay videos and virtually anything else you might want to know about a game including interviews with the programmers, in some cases design documents, etc...

Now, I'm willing to accept that there is that remaining .1% of games that aren't very well documented. Unfortunately, I don't see how your archive helps that in any way. You are relying on the same kindness of strangers and hobbyists that every collector or historical video game website does and has done for the past 20 years. Simply put, you aren't offering any greater incentive to those people to come forward than every other website out there that has been seeking that information for the past two decades.

I get that people always are looking to build a better mousetrap, but in this case, I think you are just reinventing the wheel. I would suggest that rather than focusing on the same stuff that's already out there, you look to serve a niche that is massively underserved. Maybe it is manuals or maybe it is really thoughtful reviews of obscure games. I'm not sure what it is, but I know that just building a large database isn't something that anyone I know would be interested in.

[bb_hood]

You're completely misunderstanding that point of this campaign. We're not selling shirts, posters or anything. No one is paying $75 for a shirt. These are just perks to anyone who donates. People who are donating are people who simply want to see out website created, not people looking for a new t-shirt. They are excited just like us, and will get a little piece of memorabilia. Ultimately we are providing service to everyone that won't cost our users anything to use. The cheetahmen 2 kickstarter goal was to sell a physical item, we are not. Our goal is to provide a free database service to anyone who wants to use it, and much more.


Yeah, you dont get my point. You are asking for 25,000 in donations to make a website, and your fundraiser page states that 25% of this goes to buying shirts/posters/plaques. Why not ask for less and do away with this stupid reward program? If you are serious about funding a site then just keep the memorabilia out of it all together. If people want to donate for a cause thats alright but keep the shirts and posters out of it. We are not little kids enticed by crap that can be cheaply produced.

[final fight cd]

Why not ask for less and do away with this stupid reward program?

stupid? having the opportunity to watch a movie with 7 strangers through skype sounds like a fantastic reward!!

[JSoup]

Yeah, you dont get my point. You are asking for 25,000 in donations to make a website, and your fundraiser page states that 25% of this goes to buying shirts/posters/plaques. Why not ask for less and do away with this stupid reward program? If you are serious about funding a site then just keep the memorabilia out of it all together. If people want to donate for a cause thats alright but keep the shirts and posters out of it. We are not little kids enticed by crap that can be cheaply produced.

Alternatively, make the rewards things like special forum access, icons, status titles, crap like that. People go nuts for community status junk. Hell, over on the DoubleFine forums there are people who admitted not giving a wit for Massive Chalice, they just wanted the "I donated to the Kickstarter" badge under their usernames.

[JSoup]

I'd pointed out in the NintendoAge topic on this that they should check out this thread, as we were discussing it more then they. But a few decent discussion points where brought up there and not here, so I say to anyone still interested in this to maybe check out the Nintendo Age thread: http://www.nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=31&threadid=106809

[badinsults]

It is kind of flogging a dead horse now. They failed to convince the people most likely to support their venture that it was worthwhile, and therefore this is not going to get funded. They are either going to have to proceed without funding, or head back to the drawing board. Personally, I think they should do both.

[The Adventurer]

Yeah, you dont get my point. You are asking for 25,000 in donations to make a website, and your fundraiser page states that 25% of this goes to buying shirts/posters/plaques. Why not ask for less and do away with this stupid reward program? If you are serious about funding a site then just keep the memorabilia out of it all together. If people want to donate for a cause thats alright but keep the shirts and posters out of it. We are not little kids enticed by crap that can be cheaply produced.

Someone clearly doesn't understand how crowdfunding works.

[JSoup]

It is kind of flogging a dead horse now. They failed to convince the people most likely to support their venture that it was worthwhile, and therefore this is not going to get funded. They are either going to have to proceed without funding, or head back to the drawing board. Personally, I think they should do both.

From the information presented, both are happening. The project is going to be finished with or without funding, which seems to be the point where they lost NintendoAge.

[Bojay1997]

Someone clearly doesn't understand how crowdfunding works.

I've seen and participated in plenty of successful crowdfunding ventures that didn't involve spending massive amounts of money or even any money on physical rewards for donors. Frankly, the overemphasis on providing physical rewards is one of the things that many Kickstarter campaigns are complaining about after the fact when they realize how expensive fulfillment really is. A campaign like this where it's essentially a proposed informational service has no business spending almost a quarter of the funding on garbage that people will never wear or use.

[Greg2600]

Good luck crowdfunding without rewards, ain't happening.

As for hardcore gamers, well, since nearly every crowdfunding effort on this forum gets flamed for any number of reasons, I think it's sometimes more of their being pissy than cheap. In this case though, there are legitimate concerns over the content ownership, and the ability of the project to come to fruition.

[bb_hood]

Good luck crowdfunding without rewards, ain't happening.

As for hardcore gamers, well, since nearly every crowdfunding effort on this forum gets flamed for any number of reasons, I think it's sometimes more of their being pissy than cheap. In this case though, there are legitimate concerns over the content ownership, and the ability of the project to come to fruition.

In this case, why should I donate when 1/4 of what I donate will go to buying stuff for OTHER donators? Because if you donate less than 60$ that is what is happening.