RetroN5: Hands on first look

[shadowkn55]

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[Satoshi_Matrix]

Can you explain who you are, and how you have access to the RetroN5 already? There have been others who have claimed to have access and badmouthed it, and I'd just like to know who you are, since StoneAgeGamer doesn't even have the beta yet.

Did you take better pictures than those? I hope so, they don't show much we don't already know, like way it looks like out the back.

What are the exact power supply specs? Is it 5v 1A, 12v 2A, what is it?

What are the measurements of the system? The MVS cart is a good size reference, but I'd like to get a feel for how big and how tall the system is.

So it's a rom dumper just as I suspected. You said NES/SNES games dump quickly, but GBA games can take minutes. Is that a one time only thing, or is that every single time? I would hope that GBA games won't take "minutes" to boot up every single time you want to play one.

As for your troubles with SMW played with an NES pad, I can tell you right now that's not the RetroN5's doing. The 4021 is the same in both, and it would be screwy on the real hardware too. It should be able to handle on-the-fly switching of controllers without crashing, but maybe it can't because that's a prototype and the firmware to fix that hasn't been released yet. I'm sure that's not going to be a lingering problem forever.

HDMI only? Are you sure? at PAX Hyperkin showed composite inputs as well.

Please expand upon the audio issues you mentioned. What's wrong?

I just really want you to take better pictures.

[shadowkn55]

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[Leo_A]

What are they gaining by dumping each cartridge that's inserted? Would seem as if it's just increasing their workload substantially since they now have to emulate everything like SuperFX chips rather than just letting the onboard cartridge hardware do its own job.

And from our viewpoint, it increases the chances of inaccuracies, adds wait time for games we're used to booting immediately, and breaks the original saving mechanism in cartridges since obviously it won't actively be interacting with the cartridge after dumping its contents [Edit: Now that this is actually out as I edit this post, thankfully that last one has proven to be incorrect thanks to its ability to extract and then optionally later on, its ability to upload a save back to the cartridge.].

[shadowkn55]

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[Leo_A]

I understand how it works, but I don't understand why it needed to be that way here. Why does the emulator care where the rom data resides that it reads? PC emulators work that way since there isn't a physical interface for it to interact directly with the data on original cartridges. But this thing has those connections.

[shadowkn55]

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[JSoup]

Can you explain who you are, and how you have access to the RetroN5 already? There have been others who have claimed to have access and badmouthed it, and I'd just like to know who you are, since StoneAgeGamer doesn't even have the beta yet.

You keep saying this, but plenty of people have played with the damn thing. It was available for copious use over this past weekend during at least three conventions. Edit: Hell, that controller you said was "only a mock up" or something in other topic was at SacAnime as well. Wish I had gotten a pic of it, but I didn't think to.

[Leo_A]

It's all software based, not hardware based. So I don't see what the complexity would be in keeping continuous communication with the cartridge slot going.

[shadowkn55]

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[IrishNinja]

wait, OP made the Omega CVS? damn man, i'm a fan of your handiwork! totally wanna get one of those one day...

great write-up; while there were no genesis specifics, its sounding like my expectations for its audio being in line with the last few models sounds about right, sadly. honestly, now that i have my old hardware over RGB the only pluses i saw here were savestates, controller options & region free but it's only the first one i could've used anyway. sounds like an awesome gift though!

also, i still have the outside hope this thing gets hacked into being an interesting MAMEbox or something, haha.

[shadowkn55]

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[wiggyx]

Meh, sounds more like an Ouya than anything at this point. No thanks to waiting for ROMs to dump. Slow startups are something that I've had to learn to live with when using current gen consoles, but I'm not patient enough for that when trying to play classic games.

OP, I don't think they plan on adding texture to the plastic shell. I think they're going for that cliché modern look that apple (unfortunately) started 10 years ago.

[Tanooki]

Dude unless an admin here or a lawyer said so, don't be spineless, put your posts back. There are people here very interested to learn what we can about this thing that want to throw real money at it if it's a good device.

I'm seeing you think the audio is less than execellent and that the system reads carts then fires up the emulator to play the stuff. Can't say much to the first as I never heard a retron in action before, but to the other it would make sense I suppose if they feel that works best for their save/load states on games, but it still seems weird.

[shadowkn55]

Dude unless an admin here or a lawyer said so, don't be spineless, put your posts back. There are people here very interested to learn what we can about this thing that want to throw real money at it if it's a good device.


I got an early phone call this morning. One of those two things did happen.

[Tanooki]

Gotcha, that's a shame. I'd guess lawyers, they're usually full of shit and looking to make a buck any slimy way possible. Sorry you ran into trouble and I wish I had read this thread an hour earlier as it's infuriating they keep delaying and keeping their traps shut. Eventually I just won't care or pay for one if they keep it up.

[shadowkn55]

The system has the potential to be an outstanding product if the development time was put into it. I'd rather see it continually delayed and come out near perfect than come out early as a cash grab. Otherwise, you'll stain your reputation beyond repair with the broken promises of the Neo-Geo X. How Tommo convinced SNKP that it was a good idea is beyond me.

[T2KFreeker]

Wow, what a way to derail a thread. Craziness. Was looking forward to seeing what was up with this thing, but I guess not now.

[Tanooki]

Well going by your feelings about the NGX. I'd guess it's acceptable and your average casual player with memories probably won't notice, but to people posting on this site I think it'll end up being another in the line of retrons they don't want to own. I hope that's not the case, but hey if it is I save a $100. Oh well, we'll see how it goes with the delays.

[nusilver]

Wow, I came into this thread too late, huh?

Incidentally, i heard from Hyperkin recently that they wouldn't ask their beta testers to test my Mother 3 repro (which they are familiar with) because of the legal grey zone associated with repros, but they did say that whatever incompatibilities the R5 had with any cartridge at all would be fixed with firmware updates.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

For those who missed it, OP basically stated that he's mostly unhappy with the fact that an android based emulation machine.....is an android based emulation machine. Brilliant.

pretty much everything he said can be attributed to beta firmware and could/will be fixed down the road, but the basic beats that I picked up on: (I'll delete this if necessary, but c'mon, it was already publically released, and I didn't sign any non-disclosure for this)

-The Retron5 dumps roms, doesn't read from them. So it creates a rom file of your game cart and loads that, and thats how it does savestates and such. OP claims NES and SNES games dump quickly, but GBA games can take several minutes. I asked if this reoccurs, but never got a response. If I had to hazard a guess, I bet this is like the loading of Call of Cthulhu for Xbox, where the first time you do it the load times are lengthy, but on repeated plays the loadtimes are shortened. That's my guess.

Dumping carts to roms rather than reading directly from them is what I was suspecting, and its not necessarily a bad thing. That would mean that games with dead batteries are savable through a digital storage medium (probably a small amount of onboard storage?) or savestates. yay for that.

However, OP did also mention that because the rom dumps are checked against a database, reproduction carts probably won't work. Based on that, I suspect Flashcarts like the Everdrives and Powerpaks probably won't work on the RetroN5 either. Take that, everyone who planned on buying this solely for use with Flashcarts.

-Only one game can be inserted into one of the five slots at a time. This ties into that it dumps the roms. If you put in more than one cart into the slots, it will confuse the system.

-HDMI only. According to OP, there is no composite video outputs like Hyperkin showed off at PAX last year.

-OP claims the wireless controller is garbage, with "mouse like" buttons. He didn't explain his position much, just that he didn't care for it. I'm still not going to judge the thing for myself until I have it in my own hands and use it myself. Maybe it's awful, maybe not. We'll just have to see.

-OP claims there were slight audio issues, but didn't explain.

-OP played NES games then switched to SNES and then used an OEM Nintendo NES controller to play Super Mario World, but didn't like that the NES controller didn't magically have all the buttons needed to do every action in SMW. Read my first reply comment for more info.


That was pretty much it. Just that he felt that the RetroN5 needs tweaking, and that's somehow surprising given that its an Android based emulation machine in beta. I was hoping to get specific useful info, but alas, all we know right now is that the beta system is in beta. shocking.

[StoneAgeGamer]

However, OP did also mention that because the rom dumps are checked against a database, reproduction carts probably won't work. Based on that, I suspect Flashcarts like the Everdrives and Powerpaks probably won't work on the RetroN5 either. Take that, everyone who planned on buying this solely for use with Flashcarts.


Controller thing surprised me a bit because I heard from people who played the system that the controller was nice. However I have yet to use it myself so I have no idea if its true.

As for flash carts, I was not expecting them to work because I assume it dumped the carts. I mean KRIKzz might be able to program a work around where the cart mimics a pre-defined game, but it would kind of take the convenience out of the flash cart. For example if the in the Super EverDrive OS you could specify a game for it to mimic by either flagging a specific rom like putting a special character in front of its name or putting rom in specific directory. It would obviously need to be something that could be done through the file structure and not the OS, because it would defeat the purpose if you had to put it in an original system first to set the game you want it to mimic. However, that being said even if that could work it really kills the convenience of a flash cart to begin with. The only advantage would be for people who don't want to buy a bunch of games.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Controller thing surprised me a bit because I heard from people who played the system that the controller was nice. However I have yet to use it myself so I have no idea if its true.

Right, that's why I'm taking the comment with a grain of salt. OP didn't really explain why he disliked the controller or go into any depth at all. When I get my review unit, I'll be doing an in-depth evaluation and review of the controller. I'm not going to be swayed by any opinion on it based solely on appearance.



As for flash carts, I was not expecting them to work because I assume it dumped the carts. I mean KRIKzz might be able to program a work around where the cart mimics a pre-defined game, but it would kind of take the convenience out of the flash cart. For example if the in the Super EverDrive OS you could specify a game for it to mimic by either flagging a specific rom like putting a special character in front of its name or putting rom in specific directory. It would obviously need to be something that could be done through the file structure and not the OS, because it would defeat the purpose if you had to put it in an original system first to set the game you want it to mimic. However, that being said even if that could work it really kills the convenience of a flash cart to begin with. The only advantage would be for people who don't want to buy a bunch of games.

My feeling on the matter is that people who plan on buying a RetroN5 solely to play flashcarts are better off with an Ouya - another $99 android based console that will do the same things as the RetroN5, and it would save them the cost of buying the flashcarts + SD/CF cards on top of that. One of the big reasons for the flashcarts over emulation is that you can play the games on the real hardware, but since the RetroN5 is emulation based anyway, the flashcarts advantages over emulators is negated.

The Ouya runs everything the RetorN5 does perfectly (and if these reports are to be beleived, it does more, such as being able to run "repros"). Plus, it also runs other consoles too like PS1 and N64, as well as Android ported games and games specifically made for Ouya.

But for everyone despairing about the RetorN5 due to this, keep in mind that it's possible Hyperkin could perhaps create a placeholder in their database for these flashcarts that would enable them to work on the RetroN5.

The RetroN5 is for people who have a large collection of physical carts and don't want to go pure emulation. If all you're planning on doing is running flashcarts on it - and even if that does end up working flawlessly- you're better off buying an Ouya instead, and perhaps a USB to SNES controller adapter so you can use that SNES controller to play all your retro games with. that's what I do right now.

[StoneAgeGamer]

Right, that's why I'm taking the comment with a grain of salt. OP didn't really explain why he disliked the controller or go into any depth at all. When I get my review unit, I'll be doing an in-depth evaluation and review of the controller. I'm not going to be swayed by any opinion on it based solely on appearance.




My feeling on the matter is that people who plan on buying a RetroN5 solely to play flashcarts are better off with an Ouya - another $99 android based console that will do the same things as the RetroN5, and it would save them the cost of buying the flashcarts + SD/CF cards on top of that. One of the big reasons for the flashcarts over emulation is that you can play the games on the real hardware, but since the RetroN5 is emulation based anyway, the flashcarts advantages over emulators is negated.

The Ouya runs everything the RetorN5 does perfectly (and if these reports are to be beleived, it does more, such as being able to run "repros"). Plus, it also runs other consoles too like PS1 and N64, as well as Android ported games and games specifically made for Ouya.

But for everyone despairing about the RetorN5 due to this, keep in mind that it's possible Hyperkin could perhaps create a placeholder in their database for these flashcarts that would enable them to work on the RetroN5.

The RetroN5 is for people who have a large collection of physical carts and don't want to go pure emulation. If all you're planning on doing is running flashcarts on it - and even if that does end up working flawlessly- you're better off buying an Ouya instead, and perhaps a USB to SNES controller adapter so you can use that SNES controller to play all your retro games with. that's what I do right now.

I agree at that point the flash cart is an unnecessary middleman. Flash carts are best used on original hardware.

[treismac]

-HDMI only. According to OP, there is no composite video outputs like Hyperkin showed off at PAX last year.

Ohhhhh... I'm sad to read that. For a few reasons-lag issues being foremost- I really prefer playing retro games on a CRT. Damn. This could be a deal breaker for me.

[Leo_A]

For those who missed it, OP basically stated that he's mostly unhappy with the fact that an android based emulation machine.....is an android based emulation machine. Brilliant.

He never said anything about Android though. He said something about an FPGA which puzzled me since they'd have to have pretty expensive hardware here for such technology to replicate these systems and I thought the driving force behind this was cost reduction by utilizing off the shelf hardware like the Android chipset.

As far as I'm aware, we're still just assuming at this point that this is Android based.


OP claims NES and SNES games dump quickly, but GBA games can take several minutes. I asked if this reoccurs, but never got a response.

He actually did answer you. He said it doesn't reoccur if you leave the game in the system. But if you switch cartridges, that rom image is erased the next time you write a new game to the onboard memory.


I suspect Flashcarts like the Everdrives and Powerpaks probably won't work on the RetroN5 either. Take that, everyone who planned on buying this solely for use with Flashcarts.

I'm glad someone is happy about this even if it's a bizarre stance to take.



My feeling on the matter is that people who plan on buying a RetroN5 solely to play flashcarts are better off with an Ouya - another $99 android based console that will do the same things as the RetroN5, and it would save them the cost of buying the flashcarts + SD/CF cards on top of that. One of the big reasons for the flashcarts over emulation is that you can play the games on the real hardware, but since the RetroN5 is emulation based anyway, the flashcarts advantages over emulators is negated.

I'm hoping this will be hacked. A $100 self contained emulation box able to load rom images and interface with original controllers out of the box would be nice. I want to play original cartridges with a nice picture on a HDTV, but the more useful functionality there is, the better as I see it.

I never saw the need to so narrowly define the "purpose" of the Retron 5 as some have done. The more this does above and beyond what can be achieved with original hardware, like allowing me to use a Sega Genesis arcade stick with NES games and remap my buttons as I desire, the better.

The reason I'm buying this is to accomplish what I can't with original hardware. If this didn't have things like HD output, frankly, I'd just have a passing interest since I have the original hardware here and already setup. It's those extra features that are the reason I'm here for. The less of those it has, the less my interest is.



But for everyone despairing about the RetorN5 due to this, keep in mind that it's possible Hyperkin could perhaps create a placeholder in their database for these flashcarts that would enable them to work on the RetroN5.

A placeholder?

If this dumps roms, the Retron 5 not having a database entry for something like the Super Everdrive is the least of its worries. And the best we could hope for, as I see it, would be having it work like StoneAgeGamer said with it serving as a pre-defined game.

[wiggyx]

For those who missed it, OP basically stated that he's mostly unhappy with the fact that an android based emulation machine.....is an android based emulation machine. Brilliant.

pretty much everything he said can be attributed to beta firmware and could/will be fixed down the road, but the basic beats that I picked up on: (I'll delete this if necessary, but c'mon, it was already publically released, and I didn't sign any non-disclosure for this)

-The Retron5 dumps roms, doesn't read from them. So it creates a rom file of your game cart and loads that, and thats how it does savestates and such. OP claims NES and SNES games dump quickly, but GBA games can take several minutes. I asked if this reoccurs, but never got a response. If I had to hazard a guess, I bet this is like the loading of Call of Cthulhu for Xbox, where the first time you do it the load times are lengthy, but on repeated plays the loadtimes are shortened. That's my guess.

Dumping carts to roms rather than reading directly from them is what I was suspecting, and its not necessarily a bad thing. That would mean that games with dead batteries are savable through a digital storage medium (probably a small amount of onboard storage?) or savestates. yay for that.

However, OP did also mention that because the rom dumps are checked against a database, reproduction carts probably won't work. Based on that, I suspect Flashcarts like the Everdrives and Powerpaks probably won't work on the RetroN5 either. Take that, everyone who planned on buying this solely for use with Flashcarts.

-Only one game can be inserted into one of the five slots at a time. This ties into that it dumps the roms. If you put in more than one cart into the slots, it will confuse the system.

-HDMI only. According to OP, there is no composite video outputs like Hyperkin showed off at PAX last year.

-OP claims the wireless controller is garbage, with "mouse like" buttons. He didn't explain his position much, just that he didn't care for it. I'm still not going to judge the thing for myself until I have it in my own hands and use it myself. Maybe it's awful, maybe not. We'll just have to see.

-OP claims there were slight audio issues, but didn't explain.

-OP played NES games then switched to SNES and then used an OEM Nintendo NES controller to play Super Mario World, but didn't like that the NES controller didn't magically have all the buttons needed to do every action in SMW. Read my first reply comment for more info.


That was pretty much it. Just that he felt that the RetroN5 needs tweaking, and that's somehow surprising given that its an Android based emulation machine in beta. I was hoping to get specific useful info, but alas, all we know right now is that the beta system is in beta. shocking.

You can so often be the master of assumptions and selective memory.

"Everything" he said, with regards to any issues with the console, weren't attributable to firmware issues. It was explained that firmware updates may be able to solve some of the cited problems.

He explained that games would need to be re-dumped every time the console is turned off and gave ZERO indication that subsequent uses of that game would result in faster dump times.

There was no information regarding the machine holding save files for individual games. Games with dead batteries may very well remain useless when it comes to saving. We just don't know.

As far as repro carts go, again, you're making an assumption. You have no idea exactly how the machine checks against a database and what data it uses to verify the game is on the list.

He explained exactly why he didn't like the controllers and it was because they use micro switches (just like mice do) instead of silicone springs with conductive contact pads.

He said the audio sounded reminiscent of 90s emulators. I think that's enough of an explanation for most anyone here.

His issue with hot swapping controllers had nothing to do with how it didn't "magically have all the buttons needed" and you know it.

What more "useful" info do you want at this point?

[Leo_A]

He said it's erased when you power the system down? I could've swore he said it does that when you changed games. Either way, he definitely did address that after the question was asked.

[wiggyx]

I'll check my PC when I get home. I may still the tab open. If so, I'll double check.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Well....I somewhat question how credible the OP was with any of his claims, given that he didn't go into detail about anything any retracted everything he said. but even if everything he said was 100% honest, keep in mind he had access to a prototype, not the final unit. it might yet have composite input.

on the other hand, it probably won't, given that no android device outputs composite natively.

[IrishNinja]

ah, don't blame OP one bit for walking it all back, that sucks though.



For those who missed it, OP basically stated that he's mostly unhappy with the fact that an android based emulation machine.....is an android based emulation machine. Brilliant.

pretty much everything he said can be attributed to beta firmware and could/will be fixed down the road, but the basic beats that I picked up on: (I'll delete this if necessary, but c'mon, it was already publically released, and I didn't sign any non-disclosure for this)

...

That was pretty much it. Just that he felt that the RetroN5 needs tweaking, and that's somehow surprising given that its an Android based emulation machine in beta. I was hoping to get specific useful info, but alas, all we know right now is that the beta system is in beta. shocking.

i don't think you're paiting the same picture here, and the snark about beta/prototype stuff is unnecessary given that he clearly stated as much? nevermind that him taking it down just for you to (questionably) summarize kinda defeats the purpose; if he took heat for it here why would you do that to the guy & possibly bring more his way?

[Satoshi_Matrix]

I feel like whatever "damage" he caused has already been done, and this thread would be pointless if all it contained was [removed] notes and then people responding to those before they were removed. No, if he was asked to remove the comments he left so be it, but he can't remove the memory from those who already saw the comments and my abridged version of what he said is justified because I'm the one who posting it and I didn't sign a non-disclosure about it. it was already shared publicly. its like pandora's box; once opened, it can't be contained again. and anyway, very little of this info is new. it's mostly what we already knew, or already suspected. nothing really specific was revealed.

All the info posted really amounts to is that the RetroN5 is in beta and isn't quite ready for a public release...which given that it isn't out yet...is a pretty easy assumption to make.

[T.A.P.]

So, is there anyway for me to save a copy of the rom dumps this thing makes? I'd actually be tempted to buy one if I can use it to dump my own ROMs and then back those up to my computer.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

I highly doubt that. In all likelihood the rom dumps will be stored either temporarily (meaning they are deleted when the power is turned off) or they are on an inaccessible storage area that you won't be able to access. I never did get a reply from the OP of this thread, but my hunch is that the rom data is dumped only temporarily and then deleted later.

Also, Hyperkin has said zeltch about the RetroN having any sort of connectivity with pcs, so unless(until) the system gets hacked the possibility of that happening is nonexistant.

If you want to dump your cartridge games to a pc, buy a Retrode. This isn't that and likely will never be.

[JSoup]

Also, Hyperkin has said zeltch about the RetroN having any sort of connectivity with pcs, so unless(until) the system gets hacked the possibility of that happening is nonexistant.

Team guys at SacAnime stated that PC connectivity is something they'd like to eventually do, but it's not priority. Others are saying that other reps said the same at different shows over the same weekend.

[Vidmusc]

it might yet have composite input.

OP is actually 100% correct on Retron 5 not having composite input. Hyperkin actually scrapped the composite, and made the console HDMI only.

Either way, for everything else... With the ROM dumps apparently being temporarily, I only have one question: If you save the in game (not talking about save states), does it save to the cartridge? I'm honestly extremely confused on how this would work. I'm not even 100% sure on how emulation works itself. I was honestly considering getting the Retron 5, because it'd be an affordable option for me, as I'm wanting to get into collecting for these systems.

If anyone could answer that I'd actually really appreciate it. I'm interested in getting the Retron 5. If it isn't actually a very good piece of hardware, I might skip over it and try and find the actual systems instead.

[Az]

Wow... the whole ROM dumping and header database thing is absurd.

If it doesn't interface directly with the cart then games with bank switching, SRAM checks, and other times weird copy protection schemes won't work unless the emulator has those routines patched into it on a case by case basis.

If games require a valid header to be checked against a database then weird shit like unlicensed games and multi-game pirates won't load.

[StoneAgeGamer]

OP is actually 100% correct on Retron 5 not having composite input. Hyperkin actually scrapped the composite, and made the console HDMI only.

Either way, for everything else... With the ROM dumps apparently being temporarily, I only have one question: If you save the in game (not talking about save states), does it save to the cartridge? I'm honestly extremely confused on how this would work. I'm not even 100% sure on how emulation works itself. I was honestly considering getting the Retron 5, because it'd be an affordable option for me, as I'm wanting to get into collecting for these systems.

If anyone could answer that I'd actually really appreciate it. I'm interested in getting the Retron 5. If it isn't actually a very good piece of hardware, I might skip over it and try and find the actual systems instead.

Well the Retrode, which works similar to this, can write to cart save file. However I think the Retrode only supports SNES/SFC games saves. Maybe Hyperkin went beyond that and allows saves to other carts.

[Vidmusc]

Well the Retrode, which works similar to this, can write to cart save file. However I think the Retrode only supports SNES/SFC games saves. Maybe Hyperkin went beyond that and allows saves to other carts.

Ah okay. Hopefully it works with all the carts then. I'll probably wait for an actual review before I make a firm decision on getting this or not.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

OP is actually 100% correct on Retron 5 not having composite input. Hyperkin actually scrapped the composite, and made the console HDMI only.

That makes sense, since the Ouya also is HDMI only and no Android device natively produces composite anyway, and composite inputs would mostly go unused for the majority of the people who buy it. Why use composite when you can have HDMI 1080p? Well, other than hardcore gamers who claim to notice input lag with the non-game mode HDTVs. Those in that group have my sympathies, but you guys are in a tiny minority compared to most who don't notice/don't care.

I was hoping Hyperkin would have S-Video, but that wasnt even ever planned it seems.


With the ROM dumps apparently being temporarily, I only have one question: If you save the in game (not talking about save states), does it save to the cartridge?

first, it's important to note that the following is speculation based on what's been revealed and how other Android devices work such as the Ouya. I may be mistaken about some of this, but I strongly suspect I'm not.

Hyperkin has stated the RetroN5 will have some amount of built in storage capacity for savestates. It's extremely likely that will also be true of battery backed s-ram storage. Most emulators create a a dummy .sav file (or some other extension) to store battery-baced sram saves from cartridges. They are independent of savestates which are created manually.

In all likelihood the RetroN5 will follow this as well. Game saves will not be dependent on the cartridge. Now, it's possible Hyperkin could add a manual feature to upload the cartridge s-ram to such a .sav file or even the reverse and put a generated .sav file back to the cart, but I highly doubt that it will actively use the cartridge for pretty much anything once its been dumped to rom.




Wow... the whole ROM dumping and header database thing is absurd.

If it doesn't interface directly with the cart then games with bank switching, SRAM checks, and other times weird copy protection schemes won't work unless the emulator has those routines patched into it on a case by case basis.

If games require a valid header to be checked against a database then weird shit like unlicensed games and multi-game pirates won't load.

It's not absurd at all. This is how emulators run roms. Everything you mentioned - bank switching, s-ram checks, copyright protection schemes (like EarthBound has) are all dealt with in rom and run by the android based emulator. Just look at how PCs have been emulating cartridge games flawlessly for years. The only thing the RetroN5 is doing differently is requiring the cart as the source of a rom rather than the internet for the source of the rom.

But you're right; it's very possible that some unlicnesned games, particularly multi carts and flash carts will not work. Giant questions loom about those things right now. They might boot anyway, with the RetroN5 saying "unknown game" or they could refuse to work. Only time will tell on those.


Well the Retrode, which works similar to this, can write to cart save file. However I think the Retrode only supports SNES/SFC games saves. Maybe Hyperkin went beyond that and allows saves to other carts.

The Retrode also does Genesis, and has adapters for other consoles too. It's possible Hyperkin will adopt uploading and downloading sram to and from the cart and RetroN5, but they have no compelling reason to.

[Az]

It's not absurd at all. This is how emulators run roms.

Perhaps absurd was the incorrect term to use. Pointless? Needlessly limiting? I'm sure there is one but I just don't see a technical reason for it.

This instantly means Pier Solar and any future Watermelon games and any Super Fighter Team games will not work.

Taking the usual culprits out (Castlevania III, Virtua Racing) clone systems generally boot virtually anything you throw at them and as a whole have *more* compatibility with games than official systems do. By requiring a certain header in games in order for them to work the console has less compatibility than both a real system or previous clones. Requiring header information when it previously wasn't needed is why playing oddball stuff on both the SNES Powerpak and Everdrive is a nerve wrecking experience but with a normal copier it's a walk in the park.

Both real and clone SNES machines do not require valid headers. MD clones will play games that have screwy headers and do not include TMSS. PC emulators for either system are the same way, they don't require a rigid set of header info to work.

[Greg2600]

shadowkn55 is a long-time and reputable member here. Honestly I'm not sure of what the hoopla over the RetroN5 is? For a pack rate like me it's totally unneeded!

[JSoup]

Generally speaking, it's unneeded for me as well. It's neat and all, but I still have original systems for all the games I own. Anything I don't own that the Retron5 runs I can download.

[Leo_A]

I never did get a reply from the OP of this thread, but my hunch is that the rom data is dumped only temporarily and then deleted later.


Like we already said, he did reply to you on this matter.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Perhaps absurd was the incorrect term to use. Pointless? Needlessly limiting? I'm sure there is one but I just don't see a technical reason for it.

This instantly means Pier Solar and any future Watermelon games and any Super Fighter Team games will not work.

Whoa whoa, slow down. First, keep in mind that everything mentioned here is based on what one person said who didn't post any proof of his claims and in fact quickly removed the claims he did make. Also, he was using beta hardware. I'm not saying that he was lying, just that there is no confirmation on anything of this, and even if there was, things could change a lot between now and whenever hyperkin decides to release this damn thing.

Second, you're directly comparing reverse engineered hardware to raw emulation. Hardware clones are incredibly dumb; they're limited at whatever flaws they were designed with, with a limited window of tinkering from the end user should they be knowledgeable in soldering and basic electronics.

Emulators on the other hand exist purely as software. The RetroN5 won't be running any of the games in hardware because it doesn't have the hardware to do that. It's not a reverse engineered hardware clone. Therefore, it has to reduce the games to roms for the emulators to run them. Interfacing with the cartridges at that point is no longer possible. Think of it like the GameBoy Player's boot disc that's only purpose is to be there upon bootup. the header check is needed so the Retron5 knows what the hell cartridge it is that it's dumping to rom.

Third, the header check against a database doesn't necessarily mean the RetorN5 won't be able to play games that don't show up in the database. For example, on Ouya, one of the SNES emulators -SuperGNES- uses the header info of snes roms to generate boxart thumbnail to make browsing for the game you want to play a less boring.

It's possible Hyperkin might have the same kind of thing in mind for the RetroN5's interface. Maybe there could be a 'history' page telling a blurb about the game and it's release data similar to have mame and coinops work.

Any game that's a fan translation or unlicensed or whatever shows up with invalid boxart data, but the games are still playable. The interface might spit out "unknown game" for games like Pier Solar or Battle Kid and still let them boot. and even if not...this is fixable in the future with firmware updates.


shadowkn55 is a long-time and reputable member here. Honestly I'm not sure of what the hoopla over the RetroN5 is? For a pack rat like me it's totally unneeded!

This IS an interesting question, no doubt. What is the point of the RetroN5? why not either stick with the original hardware on all accounts, or go with a 100% pure emulation option like the Ouya? Why do this half-and-half system?

I'm not sure I have an explanation myself as to the interest besides novel curiosity. I do admit that I am drawn to the idea of multiple in one consoles such as the crazy contraptions Bacteria has made and I'm also drawn to the concept of having convenient emulators on other devices like the PSP.

I'm also at a crossroads of sorts when it comes to how I really prefer to play my retro games. Long has it been that I've hung onto several CRTs to keep my precious retro gaming systems alive since they look awful on HDTVs, but with devices like this that aim to bridge the gap I'm hopeful the day is not too distant that I'll feel completely justified in getting rid of all but one of my heavy heavy CRTs and replace them with slim, light HDTVs.

"Need' isn't the right word.

I have hope for the RetroN5.


Generally speaking, it's unneeded for me as well. It's neat and all, but I still have original systems for all the games I own. Anything I don't own that the Retron5 runs I can download.

This brings up anther conflicting point within me. I own everything the RetroN5 will run in hardware, including the Famicom. I Also own an Ouya - an HDTV ready emulation machine that does everything the RetroN5 does and a whole lot more. The RetroN5 won't work on CRTs (at least not natively) and I already have an HDTV retro gaming solution I'm very satisfied with. Still, its the burning curiosity that drives me forward with the RetroN5. I'm really curious to know it directly compares to the original hardware and also the Ouya.


Like we already said, he did reply to you on this matter.

If so, it was [removed]. Do you know what he said?

[rob black]

[content removed by request]

[Az]

Whoa whoa, slow down. First, keep in mind that everything mentioned here is based on what one person said

Pontificating over the header issues may be a moot point but one absolute remains; the OP mentioned that it dumps the cart to RAM and runs it as a ROM image as any other emulator does. Granted anything and everything may change by the time it's released, but that's a fairly gigantic puzzle piece to remove and redesign hardware/software over, and I personally don't see anyone going that far back to the drawing board.

Taking that into consideration means that anything that won't work in a regular copier (or Retrode) won't work in this.

You can't jam a Super Game Boy into a Double Pro Fighter and get a workable ROM image, nor can you use an Action Replay, Game Genie, Magicard, or any other cart based peripheral. No compatibility with copiers or flash cartridges, with the exception of possibly Tototek's flash cart (since you can have it load as a single game with no GUI). Anything with complexity beyond a pin converter won't work.

You won't be able to play any MD stuff from Watermelon (Pier Solar, Project Y, etc) SFT (Beggar Prince, Star Odyssey, etc) and a few other unlicensed companies, you won't be able to play any unlicensed SNES games or some of the oddball, GB, GBC, & GBA titles from Sachen, Gowin, and other companies due to

) The emulators do not support the copy routines
) Even if they did support the routines, the carts cannot be dumped with conventional run of the mill copier tech, so the console can't pull a working ROM image from the cart

Granted that those issues probably do not matter to 99.9% of people in the world, much less the RetroN5's target audience; I'm just disappointed that there's an extremely good possibility that all these clones we've dragged through the mud over shitty sound or colors being off will manage to have more compatibility than something brand new.

[IrishNinja]

not to beat a dead horse, but


Whoa whoa, slow down. First, keep in mind that everything mentioned here is based on what one person said who didn't post any proof of his claims and in fact quickly removed the claims he did make.

the dude was involved in the MVS Omega & has had people vouch for him since, why bust his chops like there's no credit in the bank there? i'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt here.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Az, it really just sounds like you are harping on the RetroN5 for being an emulation machine even though that's clearly what it is. You're probably right though; peripherals like the GameGenie or Super GameBoy and unlicensed/indie game support is questionable at best with the RetroN5.

That's the trade off for full comparability of all licensed games, particularly the troublesome licensed games on NES such as MMC4 and MMC5 games, Rad Racer 2, Gauntlet 2, etc that typically don't work with hardware clones.

If hardware based peripherals and unlicensed and indie game support is really that important to you, then it doesn't sound like the RetroN5 is really for you. But hey, that's fine - keep in mind that the rival company Retro-Bit is also working on a similar clone called the Super Retro Trio - which is reverse engineered hardware, so that will work with those unlicensed and indie games.




the dude was involved in the MVS Omega & has had people vouch for him since, why bust his chops like there's no credit in the bank there? i'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt here.

Why did you gloss over the part where I said:

. I'm not saying that he was lying, just that there is no confirmation on anything of this, and even if there was, things could change a lot between now and whenever hyperkin decides to release this damn thing.

[genesisguy]

I don't really get the hype of this. My original NES, Genesis, and SNES work fine. I have a CRT TV in the basement and that still works fine too. Maybe one day when all the CRTs are dead and I have need to play the classics on an HDTV I'll be in the market for something like this.

I mean I guess do get it. It's cool but all this arguing about what it can and can't do is solved by just playing your Nintendo on a CRT.

[IrishNinja]

Why did you gloss over the part where I said:

...ah, sorry - missed that bit, my bad.

[Dccloth]

A couple of my buddies and I interviewed one of the Hyperkin guys at PRGE this last fall, this is the video of it...... He answers quite a few of your questions. Oh and the controller in my opinion is pretty nice feeling, but it's was a mock up so I didn't get to see how it actually behaved. - Dave

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgBEtnwCiD0

[Tanooki]

To that question of why a half-half system between real hardware or the Ouya. It's simple. It covers their ass.

If they did another system on a chip, since they're not bright enough to make one work right on their own having imported Chinese junk that's out of the question. If they went the other way of the Ouya and advertised a system that loads ROMs, I'm pretty sure they'd have lawyers up their asses quick and out of business due to legal bills from the fighting alone. You make a thing like this, even if it is a rom dumper to memory, it has to use real game carts, and by having a registry that checks for legit known carts of the period they existed, that forces the use while blocking pirates and other stuff as a side effect.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

I don't really get the hype of this. My original NES, Genesis, and SNES work fine. I have a CRT TV in the basement and that still works fine too. Maybe one day when all the CRTs are dead and I have need to play the classics on an HDTV I'll be in the market for something like this.

I mean I guess do get it. It's cool but all this arguing about what it can and can't do is solved by just playing your Nintendo on a CRT.

See the middle of reply #45 on page 2. I give my thoughts as to the "point" of the RetroN5.

As to what you said about clinging onto CRTs, there is no doubt that there is a prevailing wisdom among retro gamers that CRTs are inherently better than HDTVs for retro gaming, but I think a lot of that attitude comes from the fact that analog (composite and s-video) signals look awful on HDTVs, and that some HDTVs are ill-suited for retro gaming if they lack gaming modes.

I have an Ouya, which among other things acts as a native 1080p emulation box the same as the RetroN5 promises. Playing NES or Genesis or whatever else in 1080p on a 55" screen is pure bliss. Not only does it makes each pixel bright and crystal clear, it also removes any overscan concerns, so that every last pixel is visible on your display.

Don't get me wrong, I have a fleet of CRTs in my own home as well that I love to play my retro consoles on, but let's face it - CRTs are the pits. They take up so much damn space, are so heavy to lift, and with age bring all sorts of other problems. On top of it, with devices like the Ouya, their very purpose is being threatened.

Even when I play my retro systems via RGB SCART on my CRT, those same games look far better on my HDTV in 1080p HDMI. Directly comparing the two, there's a clear winner with HDTVs.

If the Retron5 lives up to the Ouya, it could very well make retro games look better than they ever could on a CRT.



...ah, sorry - missed that bit, my bad.

Yeah I figured that was the case. No worries.


To that question of why a half-half system between real hardware or the Ouya. It's simple. It covers their ass.

If they did another system on a chip, since they're not bright enough to make one work right on their own having imported Chinese junk that's out of the question. If they went the other way of the Ouya and advertised a system that loads ROMs, I'm pretty sure they'd have lawyers up their asses quick and out of business due to legal bills from the fighting alone. You make a thing like this, even if it is a rom dumper to memory, it has to use real game carts, and by having a registry that checks for legit known carts of the period they existed, that forces the use while blocking pirates and other stuff as a side effect.

I doubt that the legality of roms is Hyperkin's motivation. Consider the AtGames Sega Genesis portables which are even fully licensed by Sega. Those things have build-in licensed games, and a few of them don't even have cartridge ports but instead offer to play Genesis roms directly from an SD card. I would guess that its more likely a marketing strategy on Hyperkin's part to use the carts to set up a niche to differenciate it from their competition, Retro-Bit and Yobo Gameware.

As to your complaints against clone hardware out of China, it's not so simple as that. 100% fully compatible NES/Famicom clones do not exist despite over two decades of various manufactures producing them. Early discrete clones would have PPUs with the wrong pallets and CPUs with reversed duty cycles causing bad audio. When NOACs began to take over, the quality of clones began to differ wildly. Some - like the TriStar/Super 8 are nearly perfect in all aspects while others like the Yobo FC Game Console are incredibly inaccurate. This has continued over the years and the dream of a perfect NOAC still isn't a reality.

The solution to fix that would be to design an FPGA solution, but that would drive up the cost immensely to around at least $150 for an NES only clone. Then factor in the other four systems also being FPGA based and you'll quickly realize that reverse engineered hardware that's 100% accurate is too cost prohibitive. Emulation makes far more sense, especially if it's Android based as Chinese companies are pumping out low cost android devices on a regular basis now.

I personally would rather have an FGPA based RetroN5 that costs $300, but that would have no chance of selling to the general public and causal gamers.

[Tanooki]

I'm aware of the atgames deal, and Sega was totally cool with that whole deal including the SD card loading or it wouldn't happen. I remember that being brought into question and looked into in the past as it was a stunner when that system first popped up. Sega is a hell of a lot more chill about their old carts than Nintendo by a long shot.

I know I simplified the whole System on a Chip setup, but the point is still that they can't be 100% and won't be, so this was a logical step to approach to do something different while still accessing carts. Atgames did it, ignorantly though, over the last year with their latest handheld revision that got a console version with a cart slot, yet the emulator annoyingly won't let a legit cart with a battery save a game! I'd take the FGPA setup as well but the price would suck and almost no one would buy that given what just an NES alone version would cost, so again the android box makes sense.

[Leo_A]

I'm aware of the atgames deal, and Sega was totally cool with that whole deal including the SD card loading or it wouldn't happen. I remember that being brought into question and looked into in the past as it was a stunner when that system first popped up. Sega is a hell of a lot more chill about their old carts than Nintendo by a long shot.

The point he's making is if this is anywhere remotely illegal, it just wouldn't be done in a mainstream product from a manufacturer (AtGames) that appears to want to hang around rather than a fly by night operator that disappears as quickly as they popped up.

Sega doesn't own all the IP that was released on the Genesis so their okay doesn't magically cover all the bases. So if there were any legality issues here (Which there isn't), it wouldn't be done and possibly grab the attention of the legal team at a publisher like EA that holds an extensive library of IP that was released for the Genesis.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

Ultimately, Hyperkin has to be most concerned about their bottom line - producing a console that will appeal to the greatest number of people rather than strictly creating the best hardware possible with little regard for price or potential sales.

For most people, unlicensed and indie game support isn't even on their radar. All they'll care about is if the device runs Super Mario Bros., Megaman, Sonic the Hedgehog, Tetris and Pokemon.

I think you know this all already, so I don't mean to preach to the choir, but they'll do what they need to do to make it appeal to the masses, not the hardest of the hardcore. Just like Nintendo's been doing with their consoles for the past decade.

[genesisguy]

See the middle of reply #45 on page 2. I give my thoughts as to the "point" of the RetroN5.

As to what you said about clinging onto CRTs, there is no doubt that there is a prevailing wisdom among retro gamers that CRTs are inherently better than HDTVs for retro gaming, but I think a lot of that attitude comes from the fact that analog (composite and s-video) signals look awful on HDTVs, and that some HDTVs are ill-suited for retro gaming if they lack gaming modes.

I have an Ouya, which among other things acts as a native 1080p emulation box the same as the RetroN5 promises. Playing NES or Genesis or whatever else in 1080p on a 55" screen is pure bliss. Not only does it makes each pixel bright and crystal clear, it also removes any overscan concerns, so that every last pixel is visible on your display.

Don't get me wrong, I have a fleet of CRTs in my own home as well that I love to play my retro consoles on, but let's face it - CRTs are the pits. They take up so much damn space, are so heavy to lift, and with age bring all sorts of other problems. On top of it, with devices like the Ouya, their very purpose is being threatened.

Even when I play my retro systems via RGB SCART on my CRT, those same games look far better on my HDTV in 1080p HDMI. Directly comparing the two, there's a clear winner with HDTVs.

If the Retron5 lives up to the Ouya, it could very well make retro games look better than they ever could on a CRT.



I see that point but I still side on the "what's the big deal" side of this argument. Yes CRT's take up a lot of space. But I have an entire basement I could fill with them should I want to. I guess my big thing is I see all this argument/concerns about what this console is going to be or not be and I and I get it don't get me wrong. This could make or break some gamer's entire gaming setups and It would be cool to have a console work on my HDMI TVs for retro games. I'm just not at the point where I HAVE to have that. I'm happy going downstairs to play my original Genesis on a CRT.

[nusilver]

I see that point but I still side on the "what's the big deal" side of this argument. Yes CRT's take up a lot of space. But I have an entire basement I could fill with them should I want to. I guess my big thing is I see all this argument/concerns about what this console is going to be or not be and I and I get it don't get me wrong. This could make or break some gamer's entire gaming setups and It would be cool to have a console work on my HDMI TVs for retro games. I'm just not at the point where I HAVE to have that. I'm happy going downstairs to play my original Genesis on a CRT.

And I don't really understand the "retro games have to be played on a CRT" argument. Yes, systems like the N64, PS1 and Saturn look much better on a lower res TV, but my SNES (1CHIP) outputs gloriously crisp images via S-Video and, while my Twin Famicom doesn't have the best composite signal, the AV Famicom looks quite good. With properly calibrated equipment (or modified systems for those who don't think s-video is good enough or whose TVs don't have s-video), CRTs just aren't all that necessary anymore.

[nusilver]

I see that point but I still side on the "what's the big deal" side of this argument. Yes CRT's take up a lot of space. But I have an entire basement I could fill with them should I want to. I guess my big thing is I see all this argument/concerns about what this console is going to be or not be and I and I get it don't get me wrong. This could make or break some gamer's entire gaming setups and It would be cool to have a console work on my HDMI TVs for retro games. I'm just not at the point where I HAVE to have that. I'm happy going downstairs to play my original Genesis on a CRT.

And I don't really understand the "retro games have to be played on a CRT" argument. Yes, systems like the N64, PS1 and Saturn look much better on a lower res TV, but my SNES (1CHIP) outputs gloriously crisp images via S-Video and, while my Twin Famicom doesn't have the best composite signal, the AV Famicom looks quite good. With properly calibrated equipment (or modified systems for those who don't think s-video is good enough or whose TVs don't have s-video), CRTs just aren't all that necessary anymore.

Also, not everybody has a basement (or even a house) for storing a CRT. That was one of the things I had to sacrifice when I moved to NYC, and I'm okay with it :)

[Melf]

You can't play light gun games on an HDTV. That's not a big issue for most consoles, but for some, like the Master System, NES, PS1, and PS2 you block off a chunk of the library. Most of those games are good!

[Atarileaf]

I have a game room and in my previous house had a basement but neither was conducive for having friends or family over to play. The retron 5 on my HDTV in the living room gives me the opportunity to have friends and family play retro games in the comfort of the family room without going to a basement.

This is worth the $100 price tag to me. It's another option to enjoy the games I love.

[JSoup]

And I don't really understand the "retro games have to be played on a CRT" argument. Yes, systems like the N64, PS1 and Saturn look much better on a lower res TV, but my SNES (1CHIP) outputs gloriously crisp images via S-Video and, while my Twin Famicom doesn't have the best composite signal, the AV Famicom looks quite good. With properly calibrated equipment (or modified systems for those who don't think s-video is good enough or whose TVs don't have s-video), CRTs just aren't all that necessary anymore.

There is also the argument that not everyone cares about quality. I'm personally not bothered if my old NES and SNES games don't shine like special little stars, so long as I can see the damn screen and play the game, I'm happy.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

I see that point but I still side on the "what's the big deal" side of this argument. Yes CRT's take up a lot of space. But I have an entire basement I could fill with them should I want to. I guess my big thing is I see all this argument/concerns about what this console is going to be or not be and I and I get it don't get me wrong. This could make or break some gamer's entire gaming setups and It would be cool to have a console work on my HDMI TVs for retro games. I'm just not at the point where I HAVE to have that. I'm happy going downstairs to play my original Genesis on a CRT.


And I don't really understand the "retro games have to be played on a CRT" argument. Yes, systems like the N64, PS1 and Saturn look much better on a lower res TV, but my SNES (1CHIP) outputs gloriously crisp images via S-Video and, while my Twin Famicom doesn't have the best composite signal, the AV Famicom looks quite good. With properly calibrated equipment (or modified systems for those who don't think s-video is good enough or whose TVs don't have s-video), CRTs just aren't all that necessary anymore.

To both sides of the argument, I would ultimately ask: what's to prevent having both options? Keep a CRT for the authentic hardware retro consoles, and have a solution like the RetorN5 for your HDTV? Why does the RetroN5 need to replace the original hardware? Not can't it be either or? Just food for thought.


You can't play light gun games on an HDTV. That's not a big issue for most consoles, but for some, like the Master System, NES, PS1, and PS2 you block off a chunk of the library. Most of those games are good!

I would first suggest that lightgun game support is an extremely minor loss on HDTV gaming, and secondly suggest that if those kind of games really are important enough, it only serves as a reason to keep an old CRT around specifically for those kinds of games rather than use that as a reason to not get a RetroN5.



I have a game room and in my previous house had a basement but neither was conducive for having friends or family over to play. The retron 5 on my HDTV in the living room gives me the opportunity to have friends and family play retro games in the comfort of the family room without going to a basement.

This is worth the $100 price tag to me. It's another option to enjoy the games I love.

If that's your only reason to get a RetroN5, might I suggest that you consider buying an Ouya instead? As I've said, the Ouya does everythingt he RetroN5 does and more, and takes up almost no space. With a usb hub and a couple SNES or whatever else to USB controllers, you can set up multiplayer retro gaming outtings easily with the Ouya. I'm going to buy a RetroN5 myself, but not for parties. I htink the OUya is a better fit for that given its greater range at exactly the same price.


There is also the argument that not everyone cares about quality. I'm personally not bothered if my old NES and SNES games don't shine like special little stars, so long as I can see the damn screen and play the game, I'm happy.

Then I would say...lucky you. If you're perfectly happy with your current set up, then great. it means you don't have to spend any money at all, and it's completely fine if you're not interested in the RetroN5. There's a lot of things in gaming that I have no interest in either, and I'm perfectly happy ignoring things like yearly football games on the newest consoles.

Realistically, no matter what Hyperkin does, there will always be those who simply aren't interested.

[Tanooki]

And I don't really understand the "retro games have to be played on a CRT" argument. Yes, systems like the N64, PS1 and Saturn look much better on a lower res TV, but my SNES (1CHIP) outputs gloriously crisp images via S-Video and, while my Twin Famicom doesn't have the best composite signal, the AV Famicom looks quite good. With properly calibrated equipment (or modified systems for those who don't think s-video is good enough or whose TVs don't have s-video), CRTs just aren't all that necessary anymore.

Well there's two things to easily understand why the CRT is usually superior for old games.
1) Light Guns and other similar devices needing that style of TV will not work on anything else.
2) Lag. LCD/LED/Plasmas have this inherent lag to them as it processes the lower quality image and then scales it to fit the newer tv. Some sets handle it exceptionally well that you don't get lag, but you'll need to do a lot of research or get lucky(I lucked into one) but a lot of them lag bad enough that timing and twitch sensitive gaming say even like a basic platformer like a Mario or a Ghosts n Goblins you'll see one thing, the game is a 1/2 second off of that, and you end up in a pit time and time again.

This Retron device if it's all it's cracked up to be will perhaps remove the issue by outputing natively to HDMI, still won't allow light guns though.

[TheChristoph]

To throw my insignificant opinion on "the point" of this device... I want this for the living room. I'm bummed out that apparently it won't work with Everdrives and other flash carts. I was hoping that it would because I have my original hardware and cart collections in my game room with a nice Trinitron CRT and everything going through S-Video, but we could have this in the living room with the games on the flash carts. That goes down the old pooper if the rumors are true.

It kinda goes down the pooper anyway if this is essentially a Retrode that dumps games one at a time to an Android emulator. Doesn't that OS have a hard-coded but with audio lag? I can't deal with that.

[Gameguy]

Even if there are ways to get old systems to look good and play well on newer HDTVs, it's usually easier and cheaper to just use a CRT instead. Would you get every system modded, or use a CRT that people are giving away for free every week? Ordering an expensive upscaler, or use a free CRT? Having to search for specific HDTVs that are better compatible with old system, or pick up any CRT for free?

Usually people stick with consoles for authentic hardware experience, even using flash carts for convenience on real consoles so games will play authentic. If you just want to play games and don't care about authenticity, there is the option of using an emulator and just hooking up your PC/laptop to the TV.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

This Retron device if it's all it's cracked up to be will perhaps remove the issue by outputing natively to HDMI, still won't allow light guns though.

This is purely speculation, but Hyperkin could in theory come up with a solution for light gun support by offering a universal bluetooth light gun similar to the PS Move or Wiimote with a sensor bar. Most light games aside from the Super Scope have only a single button - the trigger - so coming up with a universal design could work with light gun games for FC, NES, SNES and Genesis. I doubt they will do so given that light gun gaming is such a minority genre, but it is possible.


To throw my insignificant opinion on "the point" of this device... I want this for the living room. I'm bummed out that apparently it won't work with Everdrives and other flash carts. I was hoping that it would because I have my original hardware and cart collections in my game room with a nice Trinitron CRT and everything going through S-Video, but we could have this in the living room with the games on the flash carts. That goes down the old pooper if the rumors are true.

If you were planning on using an emulator to run a flash cart, why not just run an emulator? What I mean by that is the alternative to the Retron5 that nobody else is talking about is the Ouya.

The Ouya and the RetroN5 are extremely similar devices. Both have an msrp of $99, both are Android based emulation powerhouses, both output 1080p HDMI only, both come with a bluetooth wireless controller and I'll bet that under the fancy skins Hyperkin will use, there's a good chance both will actually run the same Android based emulators.

The differences are that the RetorN5 will rely on carts to provide roms, whereas on the Ouya you supply your own and put them on the system's internal 8 GB storage which for running FC/NES/Gen/SNES/GB/C/A games is easily way more space than you'd ever really need.

The one advantage I'd give to the RetorN5 over the Ouya is that the RetroN5 has those native controller ports for using OEM controllers. Even so, the Ouya has a standard USB port, so you can use PC controller adapters such as an SNES to USB, Saturn to USB, or pretty much anything you'd like, as well as all manner of native USB controllers and even other bluetooth controllers such as the Sony DualShock 3.

Now I'm not necessarily avocation the Ouya over the RetroN5, especially since the RetroN5 hasn't been released yet. What I am saying is that if all you're after is to run flash carts on an emulation machine, why not simply buy an emulation machine that dispenses with the need for the flash carts altogether?



Even if there are ways to get old systems to look good and play well on newer HDTVs, it's usually easier and cheaper to just use a CRT instead. Would you get every system modded, or use a CRT that people are giving away for free every week? Ordering an expensive upscaler, or use a free CRT? Having to search for specific HDTVs that are better compatible with old system, or pick up any CRT for free?

Usually people stick with consoles for authentic hardware experience, even using flash carts for convenience on real consoles so games will play authentic. If you just want to play games and don't care about authenticity, there is the option of using an emulator and just hooking up your PC/laptop to the TV.

Back on to the CRT debate, CRTs do have their advantages, and free is definitely one of them. The last two CRTs I picked up were free, and the one before that was a legendary Wega Trinitron I got at a price I couldn't refuse. even though it was 32" and a total, total bitch to move on my own.

But as is so often the case, you get what you pay for, and CRTs have a lot of disadvantages as well. The big one is visual clarity. I'm sorry for those who don't want to hear it, but digital HD signals simply look better than analog SD signals. Retro games on emulators using native HD processing simply look better than the original SD games on an analog TV no matter what you do, even through RGB. There are rare CRT HDTVs that support HDMI, but those are few and far between.

The difference between say a CRT running Super Mario Bros. on an NES through composite vs Super Mario Bros. via the Ouya (for example) on an HDTV in 1080p is quite staggering once you see it for yourself. So staggering in fact that it really puts a dent in any argument one could offer for CRTs being better.

Still, I'm not here to claim that. That's ultimately a matter of personal preference. All I'm saying is when directly compared, HDTVs are clearly the winner in terms of visual output capabilities for retro gaming given the proper set up.

Also consider the fact that HDTVs come in ludicrous sizes, some upwards of 70". Most CRTs are below 42", unless you have one of those rear projection CRTs that are big enough to be furniture...but even then HDTVs can and often are bigger.

When I was a kid I had a 13" television to play SNES games like the Legend of Zelda Link to the Past on. Today, I can play the same game on my Ouya on a 65" Plasma that while it has a huge display. it's 1/8th as thick as a CRT and can be put in places you could never put a hulking CRT, including up on walls like you'd hang a picture.

Ultimately, I think there is still a place for CRTs for retro gamers, but to cling to them blindly ignores all the advances and benefits that come with HD gaming.

[JSoup]

If you're looking for an emulation machine and have access to a PC/USB controller, forget both systems and just use your PC.

[StoneAgeGamer]

If you're looking for an emulation machine and have access to a PC/USB controller, forget both systems and just use your PC.

But isn't that whats great? You have all these different ways to play retro games:

Original Cart on Original Hardware
Original Cart on Clone
Flash Carts
Original Carts on PC and other devices (Retrode)
Original Carts on Emulation Device (RetroN5)
Emulation


Personally even if its something I am not interested in personally. If someone wants to make something new for retro gaming I am all for it. It keeps the hobby relevant.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

If you're looking for an emulation machine and have access to a PC/USB controller, forget both systems and just use your PC.

Sure, but the Ouya removes a lot of the hassle. No PC interface to deal with, no lengthy boot times, no mouse based navigation, just boot and go directly to the game on your big screen tv and sit on your sofa, as opposed to sitting at your desk on your computer screen.

[JSoup]

Sure, but the Ouya removes a lot of the hassle. No PC interface to deal with, no lengthy boot times, no mouse based navigation, just boot and go directly to the game on your big screen tv and sit on your sofa, as opposed to sitting at your desk on your computer screen.

Fair enough, I guess. I don't see how the extra steps of "click the thing to play" is really any more fiddly, but to each is own. On the point about the TV, I'm not sure how many TVs do this these days, but all three of mine have options to use them as computer monitors. Never done it before now, so I hooked up my main gaming TV to see how it goes and.....both Super Mario RPG and WoW look pretty good.

[TheChristoph]

If you were planning on using an emulator to run a flash cart, why not just run an emulator? What I mean by that is the alternative to the Retron5 that nobody else is talking about is the Ouya.

The Ouya and the RetroN5 are extremely similar devices. Both have an msrp of $99, both are Android based emulation powerhouses, both output 1080p HDMI only, both come with a bluetooth wireless controller and I'll bet that under the fancy skins Hyperkin will use, there's a good chance both will actually run the same Android based emulators.

The differences are that the RetorN5 will rely on carts to provide roms, whereas on the Ouya you supply your own and put them on the system's internal 8 GB storage which for running FC/NES/Gen/SNES/GB/C/A games is easily way more space than you'd ever really need.

The one advantage I'd give to the RetorN5 over the Ouya is that the RetroN5 has those native controller ports for using OEM controllers. Even so, the Ouya has a standard USB port, so you can use PC controller adapters such as an SNES to USB, Saturn to USB, or pretty much anything you'd like, as well as all manner of native USB controllers and even other bluetooth controllers such as the Sony DualShock 3.

Now I'm not necessarily avocation the Ouya over the RetroN5, especially since the RetroN5 hasn't been released yet. What I am saying is that if all you're after is to run flash carts on an emulation machine, why not simply buy an emulation machine that dispenses with the need for the flash carts altogether?

Isn't the fact that this is just a box that runs emulators fairly new news? I know it was speculated when they first announced it'd do save states and the like, but I don't remember it ever really being confirmed until people got their hands on the thing. I was hoping against this.

With the knowledge that this IS an emulator box, you're right, there is no reason to choose this over something like an Ouya or Gamestick or any other number of set-top Android machines.

[Drclaw411]

Maybe this has already been answered and I missed it...

But what is the point of the console needing to check a pre-programmed database of roms? If it's an emulation machine, I don't understand why that would be the case. If it's reading the data directly from the cart and putting it through an emulator, the data is right there so why cross check? If it's dumping the rom from the cart, then emulating it, it just dumped the rom so the data is right there so why cross check?

The cross checking seems like a useless middleman that will only hurt compatibility.

[StoneAgeGamer]

With the knowledge that this IS an emulator box, you're right, there is no reason to choose this over something like an Ouya or Gamestick or any other number of set-top Android machines.

Well there actually is. Ouya doesn't play original carts (unless you buy a Retrode). I am not defending the RetroN5, but the idea the it has no use since its a rom dump -> emulation machine is kind of absurd. No use to you? Sure. No use at all to anyone ever? Wrong.

You know how many people have told me flash carts have no use? That they could just emulate for free? A lot. There have even been people who have told me that playing on the original hardware with original carts is useless when there are emulators. Its all subjective.

If the RetroN5 is a good product it will sell well. Obviously right now that's a big IF. As discussed earlier your casual consumer who buys this (and yes most will be casual) don't care about installing emulators on a Ouya or hacking their PSP to play ROMs. They care if they can take their Super Mario World cartridge from their closet and play it again. Oh and you can save at any point in time? HELL YEAH! They could careless how it works as long as it works. Software or hardware emulation makes no difference to them