Are the Sachen carts "official" NES releases? [Archive] - Page 2

adaml

09-16-2003, 08:20 PM

This has been my point from the beginning.

Whatever category you place Cheetman II , Color Dreams and Wisdom Tree you have to place Sachen.

Adam

I gotta agree with buyatari.

Awhile ago I faced a dilemma of where to place the Sachen games in my "Games Beaten" list. I have it organized by:

-NES American releases (Metroid, SMB, Zelda)
-NES Prototypes (Robocop vs Terminator, California Raisins)
-NES Foreign/non-USA/PAL releases (Beauty and the Beast, Smurfs)
-Famicom (Wai Wai World, Atlantis no Nazo, Cosmic Epsilon)
-Famicom Disk System (Falsion, Yume Koujou Doki Doki Panic)
-NES Homebrews (Hot Seat Harry, Sack of Flour, Solar Wars)
-NES Pirates (Somari, Wait and See)

I originally had them with the pirates. Then moved them to the Foreign releases. Now that I think about it, since they are not pirates and they fit directly into an American NES, then they MUST be considered an American release since they are meant for the American NES.

I've been a collector of many things over the years. I have a complete set of vintage Star Wars figures, including all the original POTF, even Yak Face. For years I consider this a complete set and am content. Then one day somebody says the Droids and Ewoks figures from the cartoons are to be considered part of the original SW line. They are different yet they are the same. I get pissed and disagree at first, but then realize I am angry because I no longer have a "complete" collection because I don't own those Droids and Ewoks figs.

I can still say I have a complete Star Wars figure collection, even though I don't have those figs, but to be truly complete I must resign myself to the fact that I need to hunt those down.

The same applies to these Sachens. Hell, some of these Sachen games were repackaged and actually released as Color Dreams titles, if I am not mistaken...that should end the argument in itself.

buyatari, to answer your question I thought I read earlier in the thread about where Cheetahmen II came from, I was the guy who found the original usenet post by a Sean Roche back in...I think 1996. I emailed him and at the time I was just out of college with absolutely no money. He wanted me to buy his whole inventory from him...this story kills me whenever I tell it :(
Anyways, I gave him a couple of names from people who I trusted at the time (Etler, Neil Gordon up in Canada) and the rest is history. Roche was nice enough to send me a couple Cheetahmen II carts AND a Sega Genesis Action 52 cart for FREE for hooking him up with the dealers. The actual box he sent the items in was a cardboard box with Action 52 stamped onto the sides. I could have had the whole lot for some obscenely low price....................idiot

ArnoldRimmer83

09-16-2003, 09:31 PM

There is one Sachen game that could possibly be classified as a pirate. Gaiapolis. It's an unofficial Nes port of one of Konami's arcade games.

adaml

09-16-2003, 09:51 PM

orrimarrko

09-17-2003, 12:47 AM

I originally had them with the pirates. Then moved them to the Foreign releases. Now that I think about it, since they are not pirates and they fit directly into an American NES, then they MUST be considered an American release since they are meant for the American NES.

The same applies to these Sachens. Hell, some of these Sachen games were repackaged and actually released as Color Dreams titles, if I am not mistaken...that should end the argument in itself.

Sorry, that's flawed logic. Without changing my opinion that they were not distributed in the US, saying that "because they were the equivalent of a 72 pin game must mean that they MUST be considered an American release" makes no sense to me.

The only thing that can definitely be inferred by their compatability with the US NES system is exactly that - they are compatable. It certainly doesn't mean that they 'definitely were distributed here.'

I believe that Sachen developed the games with the intent to see if they could be profitable through US distribution. The VERY late production of these games, combined with the fact that they weren't licensed, proved to be too much of an inhibiting factor. The NES was on it's way out, and Color Dreams (and whoever else cloned any of the Sachen games) tried to enter some late releases into the marketplace for very little cost. The programming was all but completed, and just the box art and manual needed to be drawn up.

Let's face it. Color Dreams scavenged several titles along the way during the last few years of the NES, and some of these were from fledgeling companies located overseas. Just take a look at Mermaids of Atlantis. It's Bubble Bath Babes - plain and simple. They bought the rights to this puzzle game from the distributor, Panesian, and slightly reprogrammed it to eliminate the nudity. Panesian sold the rights to the game, to recoup some development and distribution costs, and I'd be willing to bet that Color Dreams didn't pay that much. However, they had a new game to add to their library, without the development costs and time.

I believe that this was the same, in part, with a couple of the Sachen games. Sachen more than likely intended to distribute in the US, but missed the boat. They got the copyright to avoid any legal problems - a smart move, after witnessing some of the other problems unlicensed companies experienced. Too little, too late - much like MANY of the third party companies and unlicensed manufacturers during the end of the 2600 era.

You can all think what you want, but ultimately, this would be extremely hard to prove either way. Even if the ex-Pres of Sachen said that they shipped the games to the US, it doesn't mean that they were officially distributed here.

I'm bored of this discussion... LOL

Dr. Morbis

09-17-2003, 12:58 AM

theredeye said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm not mistaken, the word "fact" refers to something irrefutable, something objectively true beyond a shadow of a doubt. Show me where this has been proven, and I'll take these games out of the list myself

I can't prove that sachens weren't released here because you can't prove a negative! It's like saying "prove to me that there are no aliens". How do you do that? The only thing you can do is say "show me an alien". That's why, in this sachen debate, I feel the onus is on YOU (or whoever else is so adamant that they are 'US releases') to prove to us non-believers that they were in fact released here. I think some of the problem lies with the concept of what it means to be a US release. If something was available through some obscure catalog to the US market does that mean it is an official US release? Sure, an American could have searched out and bought Sachens in the early 90's, IF they knew what they were doing. Similarly, they could have searched out and bought PAL NES games or famicom games in the same way. That does not make them US releases.

The bottom line is this: the only evidence given so far that they are 'for' the US market are a couple of anecdotal stories about a few cartridges being found at flea/pawns in the US. If these 64 or 65 games were intended for the US market, how on earth would the company have survived on what probably amounts to selling a few dozen (or less) to American buyers? WHY WOULD THEY CONTINUE TO MAKE 65 CARTS??? There MUST have been an Asian or pirate NTSC market that these Carts were intended for PRIMARILY. A pirate asian market could have easily, and quite conveniently, been built using the technology of the American NES.

From the arguments that you pro-Sachen people have made so far, I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe that the US was their PRIMARY market for these 65 games.

Please prove me wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt. Show us the evidence, or remove them from the list of "US game releases" until you can.

Basil

TheRedEye

09-17-2003, 01:01 AM

ArnoldRimmer83

09-17-2003, 01:12 AM

Arn, do you know if Gaiapolis is available as a ROM anywhere? My guess is that it is still part of the eagerly awaited Project: Sachen series.

The only Sachen games I have played so far are Magical Mathematics, Middle School English II, Olympic IQ, Poker III in I, Rocman X and Super Pang. I know there are a couple others I am missing...

It's not available yet I don't think. I still need to try the arcade version in Mame one of these days.

Hopefully Project: Sachen will continue in the future.

orrimarrko

09-17-2003, 10:01 AM

Color Dreams scavenged several titles along the way during the last few years of the NES, and some of these were from fledgeling companies located overseas. Just take a look at Mermaids of Atlantis. It's Bubble Bath Babes - plain and simple. They bought the rights to this puzzle game from the distributor, Panesian, and slightly reprogrammed it to eliminate the nudity. Panesian sold the rights to the game, to recoup some development and distribution costs, and I'd be willing to bet that Color Dreams didn't pay that much. However, they had a new game to add to their library, without the development costs and time.

First of all, Mermaids of Atlantis was published by American Video Entertainment, not Color Dreams. Second, they didn't purchase Bubble Bath Babes from Panesian, they purchased Soap Panic from Hacker International.

Any other "facts" you wish to spout?

First of all, find it in there where I say "fact". You can't, because I don't. My reference to the Mermaids game was an example, and regardless of the actual company that re-released Bubble Bath Babes under a different title, it doesn't change the "fact" that it happened, and makes for a good example to use in the hypothesis.

And I couldn't remember the actual name of the company (Hacker) that made the game, so I used the distributor. Most people don't know that Panesian didn't make the games anyway.

I will "spout" this though. Nitpicking my example doesn't change the possibility that what I have said is true. Red Eye - we all know how biased you are towards the Sachen games. That's your prerogative.

However, there's no need to try and belittle me or my argument simply because I got a couple of names wrong. It was the point that mattered - and I'm pretty sure that you got it.

GrandAmChandler

09-17-2003, 10:03 AM

Geez, this debate will never end! You just have to agree to disagree......

Or Fight it out..... :P

Buyatari

09-17-2003, 11:43 AM

buyatari, to answer your question I thought I read earlier in the thread about where Cheetahmen II came from, I was the guy who found the original usenet post by a Sean Roche back in...I think 1996. I emailed him and at the time I was just out of college with absolutely no money. He wanted me to buy his whole inventory from him...this story kills me whenever I tell it
Anyways, I gave him a couple of names from people who I trusted at the time (Etler, Neil Gordon up in Canada) and the rest is history. Roche was nice enough to send me a couple Cheetahmen II carts AND a Sega Genesis Action 52 cart for FREE for hooking him up with the dealers. The actual box he sent the items in was a cardboard box with Action 52 stamped onto the sides. I could have had the whole lot for some obscenely low price....................idiot

OK so to set the story straight these games were NEVER released and the entire inventory was bought up by a collector (Etler?) and then sold.

They were placed on Etlers rarity list and are now considered US releases.

Hmmmmmmmmmm.

But if 60+ titles which were never released (NOTE : I'm NOT saying I believe they weren't. I'm just saying IF they weren't solely to make this point) in the US and were bought up by various collectors and then sold here in the US they wouldn't count?

Why one and not the other? Well, The Cheetman II is only one game and the Sachens are many. The Cheetman II has a nice looking package and while the games suck it certainly looks nice in the box next to all the other NES games. But it was also listed on Etlers rarity list long ago and has been accepted as a US release for a long time.

We said it before the Sachens are ugly, hard to get, many in number and they just aren't worth playing.

Its like running up a hill if the hill that is too big. You give up and say you never wanted to run up that hill anyway. Logic is being over-rided.

Mind you this applies to anyone who counts Color Dreams, Cheetahman II and other unlicensed items BUT does not count Sachen. You can collect whatever you want and that's what makes collecting fun but do so honestly. Rather you should admit that the Sachen games are AS MUCH a US release as Cheetamen II but you would rather not buy them.

If it turns out that they were sold in the US (which I believe they were) then they may be EVEN MORE SO of a US release than Cheetahmen II. Ouch !!

You are not required to buy any NES game. However, if you claim you own EVERY game in a certain category then most collectors will assume you mean every game listed unless noted. "I own every US game besides the Sachens of course" or "I have every US released licensed NES game" would also be acceptable.

Now to recap and summarize my logical train of thought here.

1. The DP guide lists every item for every system into one of 5 or 6 categories. US game releases, Non US game releases, Prototypes, Rumormill, Hardware and Homebrews. This is done for easy finding of the item in question AND proper placement among collections. To change this for one system is to change this for all. NES is not the end all of game systems. It should apply to the same rules as all other systems before and after it within the same framework.

2. Following the general "guidelines" of what is considered a US release on other systems I would say its fair to assume that a US release of an NES game is .....Any program which runs on the US NES system, and no other unique system, without the aid of any device NOT INCLUDED with the program itself, which was produced with primary intent of use by the US public market during what is generally considered to be the "life cycle" of the NES 1985-1995.

3. Sachen games were produced prior to 1995. They were intended for the US market and I believe will even be proven to have been sold to US customers during the time the NES was considered "alive". They may have been unlicensed but traditionally unlicensed games have been included in the US releases of every other system covered in the DP guide. There isn't a single characteristic of Sachen games which you can point out which does not apply to some other game which IS considered a US release. So given the rules which all others abide by in #2 Sachen games should fall in the category of US releases in the DP guide.

But what do I know. I'm an Atari collector :)

Adam

Buyatari

09-17-2003, 11:56 AM

"Did you sell a single 72 pin NES game to anyone in the United States during the time period of 1985-1995"

If they answer yes will that be enough proof for you?

Absolutely not. Just because one (or a couple) cartridges dribbled their way into the US, we are now going to count 64 (65?) games as "U.S. Game Releases"?!?!?!

FACT: the Sachen games are 72-pin NTSC NES games.
FACT: the Sachen games were NOT "released" in the US.

Either change the heading of the NES US games category (ie: replace the word 'released' with something else) or put the Sachens in their own seperate list. Take your pick. But to leave them in a list titled "U.S. game releases" is a fallacy.

Yes don't let the "FACTS" get in the way even if we do get the proof. Since when does a certain number have to be sold for a game to count? Games like Video Life and Air Raid for the Atari 2600 are believed to have sold less than 20 copies each yet they count as US releases.

While we are at it, are there any other games you don't feel like collecting which we should take off the list and put into a seperate category?

Adam

slapdash

09-17-2003, 12:14 PM

You know, I've been following this thread little by little, and... I think some people need to clearly define where their issues are. If we're discussing whether Sachen games are "US releases", there are two parts here:

US or non-US?
and
released or not released?

Do these carts work in any other 72-pin machines? If not, then they're definitely US, right? First, they're NTSC, so that takes out Europe and a few other regions. Then, do these get around lockouts?

As to releases, that's the real question, but I tend to lean toward "yes, these are". But until we get some definitive proof, collectors can decide whether they collect "released for sure", "certainly and probably released", or "released or not released, I don't care" for themselves. The DP Guide isn't there to tell you what you have to collect, after all...

(and didn't someone say something to that effect on the first page? :-)

Dr. Morbis

09-17-2003, 02:11 PM

I find it unbelievable that there is even an argument about sachen games. Sachens are similar to the SMS situation. There are many, many SMS games that were not released in the US, but work perfectly on a US SMS anyway. However, these games are NOT listed in the dp guide because they are not "US games releases".

The sachen case is just the same. They are an ASIAN company that made cartridges for an ASIAN market. The kicker is that these games work perfectly on a US NES. So they are listed with the US releases because of this! WTF?

I am not going to dispute the fact that they have sold games to Americans. I am also not going to dispute the fact that Cheetahmen II should not be on the list either (technically). What I do dispute is that Sachen is in the same boat as Color Dreams or AVE or any other unliscenced company. Color Dreams (as one example) was a NORTH AMERICAN company that made cartridges for a NORTH AMERICAN market. Sachen is an ASIAN company that made cartridges for an ASIAN market. Look at the list of Sachen games. These were made for Americans? Come on.

Sachen games SHOULD be in the guide (as should the European SMS releases but that is a different story). But they should NOT be listed with the US released games. Why not put them in a seperate list with a special note: ***while not released in the US, these games work perfectly on the NTSC NES and, as such, have been included for completeness***. This way, people who want to collect them have the list right there, while people who only want the games released in the US have the main list.

I'm dying for an explanation here as to why these things are in the list of US releases.

TheRedEye

09-17-2003, 02:40 PM

First of all, orri, as anyone who has argued with me on these boards knows, my nitpicking and being an ass is just a tactic. It's nothing personal. I'm sure you know that, but I just want it clarified. You're still a-ok in my book, I'm just a prick.

Second of all, I just want to point out to buyatari that some of Sachen's packaging is rather attractive. I don't have any examples on me at the moment, but I'll try to do so soon. I'd argue that Sachen's releases circa 1993 are far better looking than anything Color Dreams did.

I'm going to skip right to the most recent reply. Dr. Morbis, we're still questioning what you consider a "release." Yes, they're an Asian company that made games for an Asian market. This was their primary business. They also expanded internationally, and at the absolute worst case scenario ATTEMPTED to sell their games to American retailers.

I've often theorized that Panesian was nothing more than a pseudonym for Hacker International, a Taiwanese company who worked closely with Sachen (we have ROM dumps of games co-credited to the two!). If such is the case, and it very well may be, the only differences between a Sachen game and a Panesian game's "legitimacy" is the number of units sold in the United States.

I will admit something that I now realize I haven't made perfectly clear: NOT ALL Sachen games were manufactured and sold prior to 1995. The multicarts, for instance, have no copyright date, and I suspect they were hand-made and labeled "American" the moment Video Game Connections ordered them.

This is 9 out of 65, however, and for me to separate these into a separate category seems kind of messy. Where would these GO? They're non-pirated, they're specifically manufactured for and sold to an American audience, and they're not "homebew" by any means. By default, I've placed them alongside everything else intended for American audiences.

By the by, if Sachen has indeed finally kicked the bucket, these handmade multicarts are the rarest NES games in existence...I'm pretty sure Mike and I only ordered a combined total of five of each, meaning there are only about ten of them out there!

Anywho. With a possible "timeframe" differentiation with the multicarts, there is absolutely nothing that can legitimately prove that Sachen games can not be included in the same list as Panesian games and Cheetahmen II.

In FACT, if we count Cheetahmen II, which was not "released" until well after the system's demise, than we have to count the multis as well.

Buyatari's right on, I really don't see how this can be proven otherwise. I'm the editor of the NES section of the Digital Press Collector's Guide, and I want to make sure these things are represented correctly, objectively, and to the best of my knowledge. If you can show me that Cheetahmen II and the three Panesian games can "count" as an American release and that the Sachen games can NOT, I'll separate them accordingly. I don't see how this is possible, however, and I really have no idea where I'd put these things if they're not American releases. "Prototypes and One-of-a-Kinds" for Cheetahmen II and "Non-US" for Panesian?

adaml

09-17-2003, 03:07 PM

TRM

09-17-2003, 03:50 PM

What Sachen titles have copyrights of 1989/1990? The reason I ask is as follows. When American Video Entertainment did their dealings with Sachen, Sachen had always sent them Famicom games to play/review and then AVE would decide what to buy the rights for/publish from there.

If Sachen was making 72 pin games at this point, why would they send American Video the 60 pin Famicom games? The guys at AVE probably didn't want to deal with designing a Famicom adapter (yes, they did make their own adapters...) but they had to since they didn't receive 72 pin versions of the Sachen games.

Also, I don't really classify the Paneasian titles as US releases, although many people do. I have different thoughts on Cheetahmen II though.

TheRedEye

09-17-2003, 03:57 PM

Sachen didn't self-publish in the United States until 1992, at which time their AVE and Color Dreams-published games would have been re-releases, yes?

As for the years, use this list: http://sachen.theredeye.net/list.html . It's a bit outdated, but it does the trick.

So essentially, they began publishing their original Asian releases in 1988. It wasn't until 1992 that they decided to go international.

orrimarrko

09-17-2003, 04:24 PM

Quick comment: Prune Face (Orrimarko) stated that Color Dreams scavenged some titles to release in the States...would that not make these games "pirates" then, since they were pre-existing games rereleased by another company? Confusion ensues.

Actually, no. Buying the rights to a game, and then changing it (ie: AVE changing some code to make Mermaids) is a contradiction to the definition of a pirated game.

I wasn't implying that Color Dreams would release other manufacturers games without their permission. That's what pirates are.

orrimarrko

09-17-2003, 04:25 PM

The DP Guide isn't there to tell you what you have to collect, after all...

(and didn't someone say something to that effect on the first page? :-)

Yep, that was me...

leonk

09-17-2003, 04:31 PM

Well,

here's my way out of this mess.. :-D

I live in Canada.. I've grew up in Canada, and I played the NES in Canada. Go prove that Cheetamen II, Sachen or Panesian games were ever sold in Canada.

As far as I'm concerned, they weren't.. so for me getting a complete NES canadian collection is nice and simple.

One more leg up for the canadians! 8-)

:D

orrimarrko

09-17-2003, 04:36 PM

The easiest solution for all of this - AND THIS GOES FOR NES, 2600, and every other system out there - is right under our nose.

Without making a "NEW" category, simply make two subcategories: Licensed and Unlicensed.

For example, under the US Releases, put a subheading of Licensed. Fairly easy to do. List them, and then another subheading - Unlicensed. List those, and voila.

Unless the lists in the guide are done through an inefficient method, they shouldbe easy to sort and filter. If so, adding these two subheadings will should make EVERYONE happy.

The Sachenists will be happy, because the games will be included with every other unlicensed title, and those who only care about the licensed games will have a list they can work off from.

Again, this would be quite easy to do, and can apply to everything from the 2600 on down.

Once again - just my opinion.

1bigmig

09-17-2003, 04:42 PM

TheRedEye

09-17-2003, 04:44 PM

orri, that wouldn't solve everything. We still have people arguing that these games are not AMERICAN. There's been no debate as to whether or not they're licensed or unlicensed.

1bigmig

09-17-2003, 04:48 PM

orri, that wouldn't solve everything. We still have people arguing that these games are not AMERICAN. There's been no debate as to whether or not they're licensed or unlicensed.

Changing the heading eliminates (see above post) the question of American or Communist. Then you dont even need licensed / unlicensed. But if they are accepted as American (no heading change), then grouping them with unlicensed carts classifies their standing with the rest of the carts.

TheRedEye

09-17-2003, 04:54 PM

I don't like the idea of putting HES and Super Mega carts next to American Video Entertainment and Color Dreams.

1bigmig

09-17-2003, 05:07 PM

I don't like the idea of putting HES and Super Mega carts next to American Video Entertainment and Color Dreams.

Are those Australian carts? Well, maybe change the heading to:

Comprehensive list of NTSC, Non-Japanese games that can be played on your US NES system and have some sort of historical documentation that at one point in time the games were produced with the intention of being sold to at least one person in the US market or with the intention of an eventual US market release regardless of the method of distribution or number of people it would have been available to and that are not pirated hacks of previously released games.

Did I miss anything? ;)

Duncan

09-17-2003, 05:27 PM

Make that bold, clean it up and edit a bit for final printing, and here's what you'd have somewhere in the next NES update of the guide:

NTSC, Non-Japanese Games That Can Be Played On Your US NES System and Have Some Sort of Historical Documentation That at One Point in Time, the Games Were Produced With the Intention of Being Sold to At Least One Person in the US Market; or With the Intention of an Eventual US Market Release, Regardless of the Method of Distribution or Number of People it Would Have Been Available To; and That Are Not Pirated Hacks of Previously Released Games

Yeah, that'll look good on the page. :roll:

Hell, come to think of it, it'll be a page!

Honestly, why is this such a contentious issue? No one really knows what the whole story is right now, and since the company seems to be AWOL it's possible that no one ever will.

The current guide has a disclaimer about Sachen games' questionable release status, so why not just leave it at that until more information is uncovered?

No need to get all huffy and personal about it, seriously. :)

Duncan :D

KlarthAilerion

09-17-2003, 05:33 PM

way back near the beginning of this tread someone said something along the lines of Tengen released their unlicensed games before they released the licensed ones.. I don't know if anyone had caught it or whatever, but it should be pointed out that the licensed games came first, then the Tetris court battle with Nintendo, then the unlicensed games.

Speaking of Tengen, that brings up something else marginally related to this thread. Tengen published several games that were developed by Sega as unlicensed NES carts. This is the same thing as Panesian "publishing" games that were developed by Hacker International, or AGCI publishing games that were developed by Sharedata, or Color Dreams publishing games that were developed by Joy Van (who, coincidentally, developed games that were published by Sachen). What's my point? All of those unlicensed games were developed by someone and then published for sale in the US market by someone else. Sachen included. The games were available to distributors through mail order (I'm not sure about Tengen, actually). So however one of these games is categorized under any list with a slight modicum of order, that's how the rest of the games should be categorized.

And as has been previously stated, anyone can determine what they are collecting and what constitutes "complete." Hell, I have a complete collection of label-less Killer Instinct Game Boy games with cracked cases. I know you care, right? Just about as much as anyone else cares if anyone else's collection is complete. ham-burger

1bigmig

09-17-2003, 06:31 PM

Dr. Morbis

09-17-2003, 07:12 PM

@Theredeye: I don't understand why you make any differentiation based on release date. You state that 9 Sachens were released after the 'official' NES era. But what defines that era: the games' release dates. It is generally held that the NES era ended with the release of the unliscensed game Sunday Funday in 95 (it would be 94 if we were going by liscenced carts). Why should Sachens have to fall within a certain era? If you truly believe that they are just like any other US NES game, then wouldn't you dictate that the US NES era didn't end until the final Sachen release? The game releases define the era, not vice versa.

As for the Panesian conundrum: were they released internationally, or just to the American market? It is my suspicion (let me know if otherwise) that they were manufactured soley for the US market. That would be the difference (if true). Sachens were sold to whoever in the world wanted them, while Panesians were actively marketed to the AMERICAN rental market only. Please shed some light on this. Same could be said for Cheetahmen II: that it was manufactured soley for the US market, but ended up being unreleased.

Clarification with regards to these two matters would be appreciated.

Buyatari

09-17-2003, 10:18 PM

The date of production is very important. Otherwise I could make a homebrew sell it at my store and you'd have to include it on the list. The only thing that stops this from happening is the production date.

There is a section for this. The after market carts are called - homebrews.
So unless people agree to extend the life of the NES then thats where these last few carts would best belong. I don't think anyone wants them there either so hopefully we will agree to extend the life of the NES to include the last few Sachens.

If the general collecting community agreed to extending the life cycle of the NES to include Sachen carts as the last carts made for the US market then yes. You could extend what we refer to as the "life" of the NES.

Why do we have to change anything as far as the categories are concerned. These categories were most likely put in place long before Sachen sold a single NES game. Why should NES be any different than any other system? Why should we have to reshuffle ALL the systems?

Only thing I can think of is that you must be thinking. Ohh Crap! With the categories the way they are Sachen does belong with the US releases. So now we have to re-write the book so they don't. Thats crazy.

I think we have proven that of the categories available they fall best into the US releases category (in fact there is no reason they shouldn't) and until you can prove they fit better into one of the other existing categories that they stay right where they are.

@Slapdash - Good point about the lockout chip. Sound like it was intended for the US market to me.

Adam

Duncan

09-17-2003, 11:58 PM

I was joking.

I know...so was I. 8-)

Duncan :D

TheRedEye

09-18-2003, 12:18 PM

So to sum it up, they're 72 pin NTSC carts that intentionally zap lockout chips, have both an American patent and copyright, were available via mailorder during the system's pre-supposed lifespan (and beyond), and we know of two instances where they've been found in secondhand United States shops. I'll be the first to admit that I have a selective memory, but I can't recall any real arguments to the contrary. Therefore, all games up until the nine multicarts shall remain in the domestic release section of the guide, barring further selective research.

The only quandry, then, is the nine multicarts. I have the "American" versions, they're 60 pin boards slapped into a converter slapped into a 72 pin case with a shitty label made on an older, consumer-level home printer. They were literally made to order, it's obvious. They're official, however, as they came straight from Thin Chen themselves. So I suppose my question is, do we extend the system's life another five years to accomadate these things? Are they counted among the rest, and are they therefore the rarest NES cartridges in existence?

rbudrick

09-18-2003, 12:25 PM

Well,

here's my way out of this mess..

I live in Canada.. I've grew up in Canada, and I played the NES in Canada. Go prove that Cheetamen II, Sachen or Panesian games were ever sold in Canada.

As far as I'm concerned, they weren't.. so for me getting a complete NES canadian collection is nice and simple.

One more leg up for the canadians!

This is all Leonk's fault! BLAME CANADA!

LOL

Ahem. So who can cough up this mail order catalog? So they WERE available as mail order in the US? If so, where were they shipped from? What was the return address when you got them?

-Rob

Dr. Morbis

09-18-2003, 01:25 PM

Buyatari said:
so hopefully we will agree to extend the life of the NES to include the last few Sachens
This is the most blatant display of revisionist history I have ever seen. Maybe the Germans should agree that they have never lost a war.

First, I hate the whole "collect what you want" argument. That is not the issue here. The goal is (or damn well should be) to ACCURATELY represent every system and game in the DP guide.

Second, exceptions are made in the category structure of the DP guide (TG16 has a category titled 'CD-ROM games' for example). A category titled 'Sachen Games' listed right after the US releases would not require shaking the foundation of the structure of DP guide categories.

From what I gather, this is how the whole Sachen issue came about:
One fine day a hardcore NES collector (or a small group) hear something about a "Sachen NES game" being found. "Hmmm... I've never heard of that" he thinks to himself. So he decides to look into it. Eventually, he comes across Sachen's website and learns that they have made many more 72-pin NTSC NES games. So he decides to buy everything they have to offer. It just so happens that this person, of all people, has an influence on the NES section of the DP guide. So he gets them inserted into the list of U.S. releases. And the rest is history!

This is what the DP guide says about the Sachens right now:

"Evidence suggests that at least two of their games were dispributed through U.S. channels so for the purposes of consistency we've included them all in the US section".

Since 2 games were found in the U.S, a whopping 62 others have been included for completeness!!!!!! I feel like I'm in an episode of the Twilight Zone. Am I the only guy hre who can see the obvious reality that these are not U.S. releases? They are 72-pin NTSC NES games with (for the most part) original programing, which is great from a gamer's standpoint. But from a collector of U.S. releases' perspective, they are no different than any other Asian company's 72-pin NTSC carts.

Keep them on the list, Oh Mighty Ones, if you have too. Historical accuracy be damned. It just means that myself, and every other collector of U.S. releases will have to go through and manually flag each and every 'Sachen' game by hand every time a new edition of the DP guide comes out.

If I can't beat 'em, maybe I should join in on the revisionist history:
Hello all my fellow North Americans! What was YOUR favourite Sachen game when you were growing up?

TheRedEye

09-18-2003, 02:32 PM

My personal favorite Atari game when I was a child was Air Raid. Video Life was fun too. My neighbor had Eli's Ladder, but I never got into it.

slapdash

09-18-2003, 03:21 PM

TRM

09-18-2003, 08:26 PM

So to sum it up, they're 72 pin NTSC carts that intentionally zap lockout chips, have both an American patent and copyright, were available via mailorder during the system's pre-supposed lifespan (and beyond), and we know of two instances where they've been found in secondhand United States shops. I'll be the first to admit that I have a selective memory, but I can't recall any real arguments to the contrary. Therefore, all games up until the nine multicarts shall remain in the domestic release section of the guide, barring further selective research.

I shall ask again. As I had said before, why would Sachen license some of their titles out to other companies to publish (games such as Color Dreams and American Video Entertainment come to mind) if they were already releasing the games in American themselves? A good explanation has yet to be offered, besides the Sachen lacks business sense reason. Personally, it just doesn't seem too likely of a reason.

KlarthAilerion

09-18-2003, 11:32 PM

Why would Hacker International license Soap Panic to be published by Panesian and a hacked version of Soap Panic to Color Dreams? (I'd imagine the answer would be something like TO MAKE MORE MONEY).

Why was Metal Figher licensed to multiple publishers? And the same with Master Chu and the Drunkard Hu? I'm sure there are several others that I'm forgetting to mention as well. I believe (and I could be wrong) that Sachen was not the developer of those two titles, but rather a publisher. Therefore, whoever was the developer of those games would be the one responsible for multiple licensing agreements on the same system. Remember, we're not talking bigtime companies here.. the licensing agreements could very well make no sense whatsoever. It's not that big of a stretch to see how that could happen.

Hell, look at some of the "big" companies' licensing snafus on the NES.. Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom (Tengen and.. Mindscape?), Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (Taito and Ubi Soft), Impossible Mission II (SEI and whoever it was). Hello, TETRIS anyone? Each version of those games (other than Impossible Mission II, as far as I know) were completely different than the other.

Face it, shit happens, even in the business world. Sometimes it's stupid and makes no sense at first glance, but it's not unprecedented. Why would a company license its games out to a competing company? Money.

I think there's a better question to be asked about NES releases... why in the world was Raid 2020 ever released? Man, that games sucks.

Buyatari

09-18-2003, 11:55 PM

I disagree here... I think the term "homebrew" is more about production than timing. If it's more of a hobbyist production (which is honestly a better term than homebrew in many cases), it could still happen during the system's lifetime. Also, though there aren't (m)any good examples of it, it's possible that there could be a "legitimate" release outside of a system's main lifetime. So, would you call a Nintendo NES release today a homebrew just because of timing? I mean, it's not likely to happen, but if it did, you wouldn't really want to change the lifetime to stretch to today either, because it would be a fluke (unless you count eReader games ).

Homebrew has nothing to do with production and all to do with when it was produced.

I have a good example. Bug Blasters for the Sega CD. Sold by a company (Good deal games) and produced after the Sega CD was dead. Still considered a homebrew. The word homebrews to me means one thing and one thing only. After market games.

Many of the rarer games would be considered homebrews had they been made today. El's Ladder , Air Raid and Video Life. Whats up with Air Raid? Men-O-Vision made that game. Did they do anything else....ever...for any system? For all we know Men-O-Vision was 2-Men-in-a-Gargage and they sold a whoping 10 copies. Most homebrews sell many more copies than any one of these 3 did.

After market games aren't releases but maybee homebrew isn't the right word for them. Still the meaning doesn't change. They are after market games, games sold AFTER the system has "died" or games sold after the system has been supported.

To answer your NES question.

One could argue that IF Nintendo marketed a NES game in 2005 for a 20th anniversary that they would bring the system back to life. So theoreticlly, you could say that the life of the NES was 1985-1995, 2005. Then you could include it with the releases.

BUT if they had some game which was produced for retail sale back in 1991 and was never released and somebody bought the warehouse that thousands were sitting in and sold them then that would count as a US release. Thats why Cheetahman II counts because of the date it was produced not when it was sold.

Now one of those Sachen games (Huge Insect) was handmade on demand for someone who requested it. There were less than 10 copies made and they were made post year 2000. Thats an after-market release. Doesn't matter where it came from (Unless it was Nintendo themselves but we talked about that already) these are after-market releases and should not be considered US releases.

Adam

Buyatari

09-19-2003, 12:03 AM

I shall ask again. As I had said before, why would Sachen license some of their titles out to other companies to publish (games such as Color Dreams and American Video Entertainment come to mind) if they were already releasing the games in American themselves? A good explanation has yet to be offered, besides the Sachen lacks business sense reason. Personally, it just doesn't seem too likely of a reason.

I think it has to do with the fact that they weren't very successful in marketing these games to the American audience which is why they turned up so rarely until recently.

If they were selling 10 games a month to the US and a US company offers them some cash to use the code well any company would consider it.

Adam

Buyatari

09-19-2003, 12:40 AM

First, I hate the whole "collect what you want" argument. That is not the issue here. The goal is (or damn well should be) to ACCURATELY represent every system and game in the DP guide.

Thats funny you should say that because thats EXACTLY what we are trying to do.

Second, exceptions are made in the category structure of the DP guide (TG16 has a category titled 'CD-ROM games' for example). A category titled 'Sachen Games' listed right after the US releases would not require shaking the foundation of the structure of DP guide categories.

Ever do those little logic tests when you were growing up?

Boy is to Man
AS
Girl is to ....... answer Woman

Turbo Grafx cart is to Turbo Grafx CD
AS
Every other cart in the US release section is to.... Sachen carts ?

Nope. I don't follow that. Please show us how a Sachen game is now all of a sudden in a different format than a cart.

From what I gather, this is how the whole Sachen issue came about:
One fine day a hardcore NES collector (or a small group) hear something about a "Sachen NES game" being found. "Hmmm... I've never heard of that" he thinks to himself. So he decides to look into it. Eventually, he comes across Sachen's website and learns that they have made many more 72-pin NTSC NES games. So he decides to buy everything they have to offer. It just so happens that this person, of all people, has an influence on the NES section of the DP guide. So he gets them inserted into the list of U.S. releases. And the rest is history!

Or how about this.

It doesn't matter who found em.
They were sold in the US during the life cycle of the NES and as such need to be covered.

I'm with you to a point here. I don't think all the Sachens belong on the list. Just any of those which were produced during the life cycle of the NES. I'm not really a NES guy so its not up to me to say when exactly it ended but up till now its generally been considered at 1995. But if we were ignorant of events up till now this life could be extended. Not because we are changing the facts but because were weren't aware of them until now.

If I can't beat 'em, maybe I should join in on the revisionist history:
Hello all my fellow North Americans! What was YOUR favourite Sachen game when you were growing up?

Rarity or the degree of dificulty finding these games while they were being produced HAS NOTHING to do with wether or not they were in fact available. Without the interent and other collectors how many NES games would you be unaware about ?

Keep them on the list, Oh Mighty Ones, if you have too. Historical accuracy be damned. It just means that myself, and every other collector of U.S. releases will have to go through and manually flag each and every 'Sachen' game by hand every time a new edition of the DP guide comes out.

Really I'm a reasonable guy and don't have much "vested intrest" in Sachen games. You point out ONE charastic of a Sachen game which is not evident on ANY OTHER US relased game in the DP guide and I'll back you 100% to have it pulled.

We all want the same thing .....an acurate listing, but so far I haven't heard one good reason why they shouldn't be listed with the US releases. Other than the fact that you don't want them there.

I collect PSX but I hate sports titles. As co-editor of the PSX section maybee we should put those in its own section so I don't have to bother with them. Since I don't want to collect them I have to assume no one else wants to either.

Adam

slapdash

09-19-2003, 12:50 PM

I disagree here... I think the term "homebrew" is more about production than timing.

Homebrew has nothing to do with production and all to do with when it was produced.

Ugh! No no no no no!

Think of the term: home... brew... -- it implies "made at home" (and refers to beer made at home rather than produced by a company). It has NOTHING to do with timing, except that coincidentally it typically follows the curve because it takes a while for information to filter down.

Think about this way, if I made a game with a Yaroze Playstation, and distributed it on CD, by your logic, since the PS is still in its active lifetime, that wouldn't be a homebrew. But it IS a homebrew, because I am releasing it as a DIY product.

I have a good example. Bug Blasters for the Sega CD. Sold by a company (Good deal games) and produced after the Sega CD was dead. Still considered a homebrew. The word homebrews to me means one thing and one thing only. After market games.

But that's wrong because Bug Blasters is a bad example of a homebrew. What it really is an example of is a category we haven't talked about much (though I did kinda bring it up briefly earlier)... You might call it a hobbyist production, or a "small press" release, or something along those lines.

I admit, it would be hard to define where the line goes, but I'll give you an example better suited to this category: Implode for TurboGrafx CD. It was written by one guy, so it looks a bit homebrew-like, but it was an actual CD pressing instead of CDRs. That's kind of a new category to me.

In a similar way, the original Okie Dokie is strictly homebrew, because Bob Colbert wrote the game and made 100 copies to sell. But the version AtariAge sells is not as strictly a homebrew, because they are making as many as people want, and making them "more professionally".

Many of the rarer games would be considered homebrews had they been made today. El's Ladder , Air Raid and Video Life. Whats up with Air Raid? Men-O-Vision made that game. Did they do anything else....ever...for any system? For all we know Men-O-Vision was 2-Men-in-a-Gargage and they sold a whoping 10 copies. Most homebrews sell many more copies than any one of these 3 did.

Yet Men-A-Vision went through the trouble of buying or making cart cases, had professionally printed labels and boxes made. And I can't remember which way it was, but if there's a ROM inside the carts instead of an EPROM, forget it... Even this game was NOT a homebrew.

Don't be confused by the fact that the computer era has allowed us to 1) make professional looking labels, 2) make CDRs that can be made to look very nice, and 3) can sell games off web pages, giving some legitimacy to the whole works. That's still far different than a mass-produced product sold at multiple and unrelated non-specialized retail locations across the country!

To my mind, though there is some blurring between true homebrews and hobbyist productions, there is little blurring between those categories and "professional" productions.

After market games aren't releases but maybee homebrew isn't the right word for them. Still the meaning doesn't change. They are after market games, games sold AFTER the system has "died" or games sold after the system has been supported.

Yes, but if that's your contention, you should a) stop using the term homebrews if you mean aftermarket, and b) figure out what to call homebrews made DURING a system's lifetime. For me, after market is an irrelevent distinction, but homebrews is more important. You appear to see it exactly opposite of that. Either way, let's not confuse the two.

leonk

09-19-2003, 02:37 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the User Interface language in most (all?) Sachen games in some east asian language? or are they 100% english?

The reason I ask this is because I have quite a few pirate carts.. they're NTSC and they're 72 pin. The only reason I consider them pirate is because they look really bad, and the menus are in chinese!

So what puts Sachen apart from this? For all you know it could be some home-brew cart, made to order, that made it to the US, but not specifically made for the US.

Heck, the Famicom carts made it to the US.. I saw Super Mario Bros 3 in store a few months before the american version came out! And this was from a reputable video/game rental store renting the cart out!

(Before all of you chew my head off, I'm still neutral in regards to being american release or not).

TheRedEye

09-19-2003, 04:43 PM

The American version Sachen games are in English, yes. The Asian versions are in Chinese. I also have a German manual for Final Combat, for what it's worth.

orrimarrko

09-19-2003, 06:42 PM

The only thing for me left to chime in on here is the question about extending the lifetime of the NES to include the last 9 Sachen releases.

ABSOLUTELY NOT - that's my reply.

Red Eye - you yourself said that these 9 were made to order. Not manufactured for distribution. Everything you've described about the carts indicates that they would NEVER have been released in the US, if it were not for your inquiry and order.

The fact that you have these carts and have indicated that they would be "the rarest NES carts in existence" even furthers the bias shown here.

The other Sachen carts are certainly debatable, but these nine? No way.

Just my input.

Steve

TheRedEye

09-19-2003, 08:58 PM

I assure you that there's no bias. I honestly wish these accursed things didn't exist, but they do, and it's on me to decide where to put them.

I'm not a collector. I have no reason to convince you to want these games. My only concern here is where to put them in the guide, because they need to be in there, and that's my responsibility here at Digital Press. And it is my belief that these are best suited for the U.S. section, and until I hear a logical reason to put them elsewhere, that's where they're staying.

The multicarts will stay there for uniformity's sake, barring further research.

If you wish to make further points, please do. This isn't over.

portnoyd

09-19-2003, 09:23 PM

Ok. Who started this thread, and can I punch them in the eye?

But seriously, I think the Sachens should be moved to a new section, World Releases.

Were they US releases? With World Releases, it doesn't matter. They can be, if they want. Or if you don't like that idea, then mentally exclude the US. We won't mind.

We're Digital Press. We're ready, to believe you.

dave

Buyatari

09-19-2003, 10:27 PM

Think of the term: home... brew... -- it implies "made at home"

The term was coined from the hobbist who produced games after the system had died. At that time this was an appropriate term as only a hobbiest would be so daft as to produce a game with no market to sell it to. After the hobby started to grow and people could turn a buck on after-market games companies also may be included.

Drug stores don't sell ONLY drugs. Don't get hung up on the title the meaning is what matters. The meaning of the term has not changed. The term has always implied "After-market" games. Does that mean only a hobbist can produce a homebrew? Of course not.

There are Atari games which COULD very well have been made at home but are included in the releases. Why? Because of when they were made not where they were made.

Yet Men-A-Vision went through the trouble of buying or making cart cases, had professionally printed labels and boxes made. And I can't remember which way it was, but if there's a ROM inside the carts instead of an EPROM, forget it... Even this game was NOT a homebrew.

Air Raid looks like crap. It doesn't even have the title on the cart. I'm not certain but I don't think the box had the title on it either. But if Air Raid has eproms in it, its now a homebrew? No way.

Many hobbiest created games look better than Air Raid. What about Venture II ? It that a US release now? If I invest 500,000.00 , have my own ROM plant, hire workers and produce my own Atari 2600 games could they be anything BUT glorified homebrews ?

Did you ever see the first Commavid games? Magicard looks like it was put together in a garage. No box and the first carts didn't have cases just eprom boards ?? Eli's ladder didn't have a box either it came in a plastic baggie. What about the labelless Halloween cart or Off your Rocker? These are all homebrews now? No way.

Production costs have nothing to do it.
Nor does the location it was produced.
It has ONLY to do with when it was produced. Think about it. There is only one thing that seperates a homebrew from an unoffical release and thats when it was made.

I have an unreleased NES prototype. Should I find an overseas plant to produce the boards and ROMS to make 500 copies and I sell them with boxes and instructions is that now an official US release? NO WAY. But if I did this in 1989 then it would be a release.

But that's wrong because Bug Blasters is a bad example of a homebrew.

Its a perfect example of a homebrew which was made by a company.

Implode for TurboGrafx CD. It was written by one guy, so it looks a bit homebrew-like, but it was an actual CD pressing instead of CDRs. That's kind of a new category to me.

Thats a homebrew as well. Why? Because its an after-market game. A well made homebrew is still a homebrew.

Think about this way, if I made a game with a Yaroze Playstation, and distributed it on CD, by your logic, since the PS is still in its active lifetime, that wouldn't be a homebrew. But it IS a homebrew, because I am releasing it as a DIY product.

Your game is neither. It doesn't run a retail US playstation.

These carts we are talking about were produced with the intent of use by the US public during the systems life cycle and run on the system they were designed for without any other required hardware.

For it to be a released game it would have to be a unique game (non-pirate) and work on the PSX without modification AND be released during the systems lifecycle. You met only one of the criteria.

If you wrote a unique game and made multiple copies with the intent to distribute it to the US audience and it ran on a PS1 without a modchip then you would have yourself a release. An unofficial release but a release none the less.

We'd all like to see this happen BTW.

In a similar way, the original Okie Dokie is strictly homebrew, because Bob Colbert wrote the game and made 100 copies to sell. But the version AtariAge sells is not as strictly a homebrew, because they are making as many as people want, and making them "more professionally".

After market game. Its a homebrew no matter who produces it or how many copies they sell. Its a program produced for a dead system.

Yes, but if that's your contention, you should a) stop using the term homebrews if you mean aftermarket,

I'm not the only person to call Bug Blasters a homebrew and everyone who has called it so does realize it was made a bit more professionally than previous homebrews. The fact is that words do evolve over time. At first all homebrews were just that, made at home, but they don't have to be made at home.

You can spend $100.00 at the drug store and not buy any drugs. You got hung up on the name. Its the meaning thats important. Do you keep only your gloves in the glove compartment of your car?

and b) figure out what to call homebrews made DURING a system's lifetime. For me, after market is an irrelevent distinction, but homebrews is more important. You appear to see it exactly opposite of that. Either way, let's not confuse the two.

Games produced during the systems lifecycle which run on that system without the use of additional hardware marketed for use in the US are US released games. Some may be official releases and some not but they are releases no matter where they were produced.

Adam

Duncan

09-20-2003, 03:11 AM

Good points made by all recently.

Keeping within the beer theme, why not just call the lesser-quality or (in the NES section) unlicensed releases from a system's known lifetime the "microbrews"?

Seriously, think about this whole case in beer terms (I know it's early morning Saturday, but I swear I am not intoxicated).

A true homebrew is a beer that is produced mainly for the enjoyment of one person and his/her close friends, who could reasonably be called "hobbyists". It is not necessarily intended for profitable gain, but if that ends up happening then it can be considered a bonus for the brewer.

Meanwhile, a microbrew is a beer that's made by a small company who's not ashamed to say they're in it to make a profit -- they're just fighting an uphill battle against the established big boys in the liquor market. But, as anyone who's tasted good microbrews can tell you, they're certainly as good as or even better than anything the big breweries can turn out.

And of course, a macrobrew (to coin a term) is the usual horse-piss with a well-known label. :roll:

Now consider the NES games in the same way, without even considering the issue of system lifespans. Sachen could be held as a sort of limited-release microbrew, depending on how many of each title were actually sent to North America. Perhaps they were test-marketed and never made it; perhaps one or two distribution companies just took a chance on a few stacks of random titles and ended up taking years to clear out old inventory. Without hard facts, who knows?

At the very least, the Sachen games that fall within the lifespan of the NES in North America ought to be included in the US list until further info tells us more. I'm not sure what to do about the later games, though -- but then I'm not RedEye (thankfully). :)

Duncan :D

Dr. Morbis

09-20-2003, 03:17 PM

I still don't understand the logic behind listing ALL of a company's games as US releases because it has been found that SOME of their games were distributed here. I have no doubt that you guys are truthful when you decare that "atleast two of their games were distributed through US channels". So, list those two in the US section. But to list EVERY SINGLE GAME that a company has made in the US section because of two finds is completely illogical to me. Why not tell us what the two games are that have had (very) limited distribution, and put just them in the US section?

One final question: why would you insert them FIRST, and THEN wait for irrefutable evidence that they are US releases? Wouldn't it be more logical to WAIT for irrefutable evidence to be found before jumping to conclusions? The general tone of this thread (and the reason it is so long), is that the Sachen situation really is not 100% clear. But they have been put in the US list and your official statement is: 'prove that they DON'T belong, and we'll remove them'. This is backwards thinking in my view.

TheRedEye

09-20-2003, 04:21 PM

but then I'm not RedEye (thankfully). :)

You don't know the half of it, man.

I still don't understand the logic behind listing ALL of a company's games as US releases because it has been found that SOME of their games were distributed here. I have no doubt that you guys are truthful when you decare that "atleast two of their games were distributed through US channels". So, list those two in the US section. But to list EVERY SINGLE GAME that a company has made in the US section because of two finds is completely illogical to me. Why not tell us what the two games are that have had (very) limited distribution, and put just them in the US section?

One final question: why would you insert them FIRST, and THEN wait for irrefutable evidence that they are US releases? Wouldn't it be more logical to WAIT for irrefutable evidence to be found before jumping to conclusions? The general tone of this thread (and the reason it is so long), is that the Sachen situation really is not 100% clear. But they have been put in the US list and your official statement is: 'prove that they DON'T belong, and we'll remove them'. This is backwards thinking in my view.

The evidence, and my personal feelings, say that Sachen games were available to the U.S. via mail order during the system's lifetime. Again, for the bazillionth time, they're 72 pin, NTSC, specialized English versions that ZAP THE AMERICAN LOCKOUT CHIP. And this is why I've defaulted them to the American section barring further research. It basically comes down to evidence vs. whiny people unwilling to step outside of their predetermined comfort zone, and being the logical chap that I am, evidence wins out.

The reason I don't separate the two (Poker III - 5 in 1 and Olympic IQ) is because I see absolutely nothing to differentiate them from the rest of the catalog, besides "someone found one."

TRM

09-20-2003, 06:02 PM

Supervision games zap the lockout chip and are 72 pin, NTSC. Are they considered US releases? No. Why? They are considered pirated multicarts.

Sachen games are original games. However, Rockman X/Thunder Blast Man could be considered a pirate. I very much doubt that Sachen got the rights to make a Mega Man game.

Considering the fact that one of the games is a pirate and only two of them were found in the US, I do not understand why all 65 would be added to the US list.

None of us know the whole story about these carts. There is evidence for both sides of the argument, I guess we should just agree to disagree.

Dr. Morbis

09-20-2003, 06:59 PM

TheRedEye wrote:

The reason I don't separate the two (Poker III - 5 in 1 and Olympic IQ) is because I see absolutely nothing to differentiate them from the rest of the catalog
The differentiation (which I thought was clear) is that those two games were "distributed through US channels". The other 60+ were not (or at least, no evidence has come to light yet). THAT is the differentiation.THAT is what seperates those two from the rest of the catalogue.
And, incidentally, THAT is also the central point of contention in this never-ending argument. Clearly, no evidence has been found (yet) that all those other games were released in the US. But they are in a list of "U.S. game releases".

Puzzling.... very puzzling...

KlarthAilerion

09-21-2003, 12:08 AM

Point one: there were at least three Sachen carts that have been found in the US and documented by US NES collectors on websites that I have seen. Magical Mathematics was the third game. I may have wasted a lot of time online since 1997, but I'm pretty damned certain that I haven't been to every NES collector's website that was ever made, and I'd say it's a safe bet that no one else has either. Which brings me to...

Point two: Not every NES collector is online. And of the ones who are online, not every collector visits NES websites and such (think Ebay collectors/shoppers). And of the ones who DO visit sites, not all of them contribute/discuss anything with other collectors and fans and whatnot online. So it's a faulty assumption that only three Sachen games were available to the US market just because the locating of Sachen games in the US hasn't been mentioned on any website.

Add that to the other evidence that has been presented and the other analogies that have been that have been made. So, there is solid evidence that at least some of the Sachen games were marketed and available to the US market. Until solid evidence is presented that any of them were NOT available, I'd say group them all together. Everything else is speculation at this point.

Ruudos

09-21-2003, 05:33 PM

Finding a brochure of a Finding a catalog of a mail order company selling these games would be the ultimate evidence.i

Buyatari

09-21-2003, 07:16 PM

Much like Cheetahman II every single Sachen game which has been listed has been available for sale to US bidders on ebay. There have also been numberous behind the scene sales and several collectors who have purchased carts directly from Sachen.

There is your proof that every game was available to the US public.
The only thing that has yet to be determined is WHEN they were produced.
If they were produced close to 1995 we can say they were US releases. All of those produced long after this are homebrew games.

If it makes you feel better we call put them into the After-Market/homebrews section but its really the same thing.

Adam

Dr. Morbis

09-21-2003, 10:24 PM

Buyatari said
Much like Cheetahman II every single Sachen game which has been listed has been available for sale to US bidders on ebay. There have also been numberous behind the scene sales and several collectors who have purchased carts directly from Sachen.

There is your proof that every game was available to the US public.
What you call proof, I call completely irrelevant. The transactions that happen in the post-2000 era of collecting (whether on ebay or elsewhere) for a system that died around 1995, has absolutely no bearing on whether or not those games were available to Americans DURING THE SYSTEMS LIFE SPAN.

@TheRedEye: I think I can safely pinpoint EXACTLY what you consider to be a US release. And since you control the fate of the DP NES section, your definition is really the only one that matters (for better or worse). Consider the following:

Many pirate carts have ALL of the following traits:
-72-pin
-NTSC
-purposely designed to zap the US lock-out chip
-manufactured for, and available to, the American market (during proper era).

In my eyes, it seems that the only difference between a pirate cart and a Sachen, is the presence of original programming on (most) Sachen carts. As such, the only difference between a pirate cart and an official US release to you is the programming content.

Taking all of this into account, your presice definition of a US game release is any cart that contains ALL of the following characteristics:
-72-pin
-NTSC
-purposely designed to zap the US lock-out chip (in unliscenced cases)
-manufactured for, and available to, the American market (during proper era).
-the presence of unique/original programming

Is this correct? And if so, would you be willing to add any cart found to have all of these qualities to the US list even if it were made by a company that, for the most part, produced pirated cartridges? Furthermore, would you be willing to remove any Sachen carts from the list that contained pirated software?

My last question is: what do you plan to do with the carts that were "made to order" recently, and therefore not fitting within the definition of a US release?

portnoyd

09-21-2003, 10:30 PM

@TheRedEye: And since you control the fate of the DP NES section, your definition is really the only one that matters (for better or worse).

I wouldn't say he's the only one. ;)

dave

TheRedEye

09-22-2003, 01:22 AM

In my eyes, it seems that the only difference between a pirate cart and a Sachen, is the presence of original programming on (most) Sachen carts. As such, the only difference between a pirate cart and an official US release to you is the programming content.

You got it. Pirated software = pirate cartridge.

Taking all of this into account, your presice definition of a US game release is any cart that contains ALL of the following characteristics:
-72-pin
-NTSC
-purposely designed to zap the US lock-out chip (in unliscenced cases)
-manufactured for, and available to, the American market (during proper era).
-the presence of unique/original programming

Is this correct? And if so, would you be willing to add any cart found to have all of these qualities to the US list even if it were made by a company that, for the most part, produced pirated cartridges?

If I have firm evidence to suggest it's legit, yes. While this isn't an American example, I included Crime Busters in the imports section. Crime Busters was published by Gradiente, a pirate outfit, but they seem to have legitimately licensed Bit Corp's catalog. I consider the Gradiente release of Crime Busters to be the "official." It's a 72 pin cart, it's in the guide. Gradiente, as far as I can tell, never attempted to promote their games to an American audience. They were (and still are) a Brazilian company. So it's in the imports section.

Furthermore, would you be willing to remove any Sachen carts from the list that contained pirated software?

The only one that I'd consider this true of is Gaiapolis. It *seems* to be an unauthorized port of the Konami arcade game of the same name, but a) I don't know that for sure and b) I haven't PLAYED or even SEEN the original, so I can't compare.

My last question is: what do you plan to do with the carts that were "made to order" recently, and therefore not fitting within the definition of a US release?

Just to keep things from getting messy, I planned to keep them where they were. I can be swayed on those.

Buyatari

09-22-2003, 01:27 AM

What you call proof, I call completely irrelevant. The transactions that happen in the post-2000 era of collecting (whether on ebay or elsewhere) for a system that died around 1995, has absolutely no bearing on whether or not those games were available to Americans DURING THE SYSTEMS LIFE SPAN.

Then why does Cheetahman II count ?

Cheetahman II counts because it was PRODUCED but not sold while the system was alive and thus any other cart produced during this time period but not sold can not be disqualified for that reason alone.

Hmm let try some other reasons. I'm sure we can find one if we try hard enough.

Because Sachen carts contain a circuit board !!
Um no that won't work

Because Sachen carts are almost square in shape !!
No, the other carts look pretty much the same.

Because Sachen made over 50 titles !!
Err I think Nintendo did to. Hmm

I got it I got I got

Because Sachen spelled backwards is Nehces !!

Now NO OTHER US released games are produced by a company who's name is Nehces when spelled backwards so Sachen games simply can't count.

Adam

Buyatari

09-22-2003, 01:27 AM

Taking all of this into account, your presice definition of a US game release is any cart that contains ALL of the following characteristics:
-72-pin
-NTSC
-purposely designed to zap the US lock-out chip (in unliscenced cases)
-manufactured for, and available to, the American market (during proper era).
-the presence of unique/original programming

Well you forgot a couple things.

1. They can not require additional hardware not included with the software. ie converters

2. They can not run on any other distinct (not clones) systems without the use of additional hardware. ie famicom games

3. They can not be pirate copies. This one is hard to lock down and I'm not an expert on pirates as I do not own a single one. I would think it would mean that if they do not contain unique data that the data was obtained with permission from the original company. And that the company who sold these carts did NOT believe or had reasonable doubt to believe that the code itself was in violation of any exisiting copyrights at the time of production.

Adam

Dr. Morbis

09-22-2003, 01:45 AM

Because Sachen spelled backwards is Nehces
Actually, Sachen spelled backwards is Nehcas ;) .

Anyway, for the record, I have NEVER argued that Cheetahmen II should qualify as an official release. Why do the pro-Sachen people keep bringing that game up? YOU GUYS put it in the US section, not us. Argue the Sachens on their own merit. Saying "well Cheetahmen II counts" doesn't cut it.

Well I think I've gotten to the bottom of the issue with my last post, and TheRedEyes subsequent response. Basically, the debate revolves around whether or not the Sachens were "made for, and available to, the American market (during the proper era)". If a pre-1996 catalogue exists (in english and for Americans) that lists all (or atleast most) of the Sachen games, then I would love to see it. Untill I physically see the evidence (a scan would probably do), I cannot believe that those suckers were made for a US release.

Basil

Buyatari

09-22-2003, 01:56 AM

Anyway, for the record, I have NEVER argued that Cheetahmen II should qualify as an official release. Why do the pro-Sachen people keep bringing that game up?

We argue this because Cheetahman II was never questioned and was generally accepted as a US release. Well, every single cart in the US section up till the Sachans were listed was accepted as a US release. Others like rentals follow this rule as they were not offered for public sale during the time NES was alive.

It elimates the need to prove that the carts were actually offered for sale (which is too close to work) so long as they were produced when the system was alive.

Adam

Duncan

09-22-2003, 06:07 AM

They can not require additional hardware not included with the software. ie converters

Ahem.

The Aladdin Deck Enhancer...?

The games for it are listed in the domestic releases, so what gives? :hmm:

Duncan :D

TRM

09-22-2003, 06:51 AM

TheRedEye

09-22-2003, 01:09 PM

I forget, are 2600 tapes in the guide?

Dr. Morbis

09-22-2003, 03:48 PM

Buyatari said:
Well you forgot a couple things.

1. They can not require additional hardware not included with the software. ie converters
I meant for the -72-pin requirement to cover this situation.

2. They can not run on any other distinct (not clones) systems without the use of additional hardware. ie famicom games
I meant for this to be covered by: -made FOR, and available to the American market (during proper era). But I can see now that your additional caveat should be added to the requirements.

Regarding the Aladdins: they cover all requirements for a US release *except* that they are not 72-pin. HOWEVER, they will not "run on any other distinct (not clone) systems without the use of additional hardware". This is the reason that both Aladdins and atari cassette tapes are in their respective US sections.

orrimarrko

09-22-2003, 03:49 PM

Okay, I'm back.

I guess that I'm not surprised that this topic isn't resolved, but oh well.

I have given this some thought, and came up with a couple of points of contention.

I feel that there are actually two separate issues at hand here, that have been kind of "melded" into one. In my opinion, let me simplify what I feel are the two issues.

1. Should the Sachen games, of Taiwanese origin, be included with games that were manufactured in the US. The "US Release" designation can be interpreted in a couple of different ways. Should it be limited to NTSC games that were manufactured in the US or by US companies? I feel that the fact that the Sachen games clearly weren't is giving some people a reason to question this.

Simultaneously, if the "US Releases" refers to any game that you can purchase in the US, via some retail outlet, then that brings up an interesting point. Should games that can only be purchased via mail order catalog from overseas be included with games that were distributed within the US?

These are two subissues that come up when I think of the "US Releases" title.

2. The second issue deals with "Release" versus "Distribution", and I think that some clarity needs to happen here. Just because someone found a Sachen game at a pawn shop 5 years ago does NOT be that the game (or 65 games) were distributed here. I found two PAL NES games at a local Game Crazy last week. Does that mean that they should be on the list as well? They worked just fine on my top loader NES machine, so they must have been intended for release here in the states. According to some of these weak guidelines throughout this entire thread, they qualify. Clearly that is not the case. This point is made in an attempt to refute the notion that just because you found the game in the US, doesn't make it a "US Release". Also, just because it works on your NES machine, doesn't make it a "US Release."

Despite argument to the contrary, I still feel that by simply dividing the "US Release" category into "Licensed" and "Unlicensed", you can solve many of the arguments about the Sachen games. That's where the Cheetahmen II game would go, and you can put the Sachen games there as well. As far as whether the Sachen games are "US Unlicensed Releases" or not, I view them as imports, and thus should go into the "Non-US Release" category.

I say that they are NTSC imports because they weren't programmed here, weren't manufactured here, nor were they retailed here - the three main arguments that one should provide in proving that they are indeed "US Releases". The fact that I could only get these DURING THE LIFETIME OF THE SYSTEM is to MAIL ORDER them from overseas, is enough for me to categorize them as Imports.

I'm not saying this because' "I don't want to add another 65 shitty NES games to my list" or something retarded like that. Hell, I have 400+ to go as it is, what's another 65?! Besides, I will most likely get them because I love the NES, and they're interesting from a historical point of view.

My argument is simply in the proper categorization of these games. By the way, the "MADE TO ORDER" games fail to meet ANY of the criteria of being a US Release, except for the fact that they work on your system. :D

Just my afterthoughts...

Steve

rbudrick

09-22-2003, 05:52 PM

I too agree these games should not be classified as "proven" US releases.

So they work in my American 72 pin NES. So what? Many Asian systems were the 72 pin variety (not everyone used the 60 pin Famicom over there). Many systems were 72 pin (and pirated systems sometimes too at that!) in Asia.

So they defeat the American lockout. So? Like I said, many Asians were using American NTSC systems, since they were the only 72 pin NTSC systems (besides the pirated ones). Again, not everyone used the 60-pin Famicom over there.

So 2 were found in the US. So what? This point has been beaten to death...many definite imports and/or pirates are found in the US. These are flukes. 2 is not equal to 65.

They also, it sounds, made pirate games along with their originals, like that possible Konami title you mentioned. What's the deal with Rocman X?

You say you won't put them aside from the US releases because you say there is no good proof. However, the proof against them actually being US releases is far stronger, however weak, than the evidence pointing in their favor of being so. Seriously, with my points stated above, the evidence to keep them in the US section becomes very, very weak. It is truly best to keep them in a seperate section until it is unrefutable that they were US releases....please wait for more research and proof before putting them in there for good. To do otherwise, from a historical and scientific point of view is not a very wise thing to do (not to toot our own horns here, but the DP guide, so far, is the only collectors' reference of its kind, and videogames are truly a part of history and should be documented accordingly and historically accurately). It wouldn't look good for people years from now to say "See! look at this old DP guide. I TOLD YOU the Sachens were US releases! This is proof!"

I mentioned it before, but please, someone post where in the hell is the catalog or pamphlet or whatever with their address to order these games from? If I see a scan of this, this would quell many disbeliefs.

-Rob

KlarthAilerion

09-22-2003, 05:53 PM

Once again, if the Sachen games (unlicensed, 72-pin NTSC cartridges that circumvent the US lock-out chip, were not available for retail purchase in the US, and were manufactured outside of the US) are not included as a US release, you can't include the Panesian games (unlicensed, 72-pin NTSC cartridges that circumvent the US lock-out chip, were not available for retail purchase in the US, and were manufactured outside of the US).

The Panesian games were not available for purchase through any retail outlet, and you had to place an order for them from their distributor. This is exactly the same manner in which the Sachen games were available for purchase (at least that's what I'm contending). Neither the Sachen nor Panesian games were manufactured in the US, nor by a US company.

When speaking about Sachens, Panesians, Cheetamen II, and any game that was marketed and produced for rental only, you have to realize that they never were available for retail purchase. "Retail purchase" means that you could walk into a Walmart or Toys 'R Us or some similar store and purchase the game directly. All licensed retail releases (and many unlicensed retail releases as well) had a chain of distribution along these lines.

Think about the meaning of "retail" availability. Retail locations purchase a set amount of product from a distributor, and that product is then shipped to the apropriate locations. Panesian games were available for purchase and were distributed to the locations that purchased them. Were they available as a retail purchase? The general consensus is that most places that purchased Panesian carts used them for rental and not for retail sale. Does that mean that they could not be available for retail purchase anywhere in the country? Definitely not. The games could be ordered by a retailer and sold.. whether they were on a large scale or not doesn't determine if they were released for sale in the US.

The same holds true for the Sachen carts. Some carts have been found by collectors through various means. Carts that were manufactured specifically for use on US NES systems have been available for purchase through the primary distributor of Sachen games that we know of. The only point of contention here is when were they available for purchase, and that needs to be looked into on a cart by cart basis. Whether that information can be uncovered remains to be seen.

rbudrick

09-22-2003, 05:53 PM

As a side note, can someone please explain the difference in how zapping an American lockut chip and any other is different?

Thanks

-Rob

KlarthAilerion

09-22-2003, 06:05 PM

many Asians were using American NTSC systems, since they were the only 72 pin NTSC systems (besides the pirated ones).

Faulty assumption. There are licensed NES console versions for Hong Kong, Korea, and the general area of "Asia." There are also licensed copies of Nintendo releases available in those locations (with cartridge ID tags of HKG, KOR, and ASI, respectively). I'd assume that many Asians were using pirated systems, but to say that those using licensed systems were using American NTSC systems is a pretty long stretch to make.

Seriously, with my points stated above, the evidence to keep them in the US section becomes very, very weak.

Which points, specifically?

It is truly best to keep them in a seperate section until it is unrefutable that they were US releases

There are some people who contend that the Holocaust never occured. I'd think that it was pretty well documented and there is irrefutable evidence to show that it did, and yet there are still people who doubt it today. What's my point? No matter how much evidence is presented for one side of any given case, there will still be those who claim otherwise. "Irrefutable" is nice, in theory.

I mentioned it before, but please, someone post where in the hell is the catalog or pamphlet or whatever with their address to order these games from? If I see a scan of this, this would quell many disbeliefs.

-Rob

I'd love to find a copy of the mail order form from whatever video game magazine it was that I remember seeing several of the Sachen titles listed in, but I don't remember the specifics. What I do know is that I was searching for a copy of SNES Ogre Battle for under $60 in mail order forms from all KINDS of magazines, around 1994-95. You know the kind.. black and white with all kinds of typos, rediculous prices, and sometimes a phone number to call, sometimes just a mailing address, sometimes both. If anyone has stacks of old computer magazines, video game magazines, and the like.. feel free to spend your time looking through them and get a scan.