Are the Sachen carts "official" NES releases?

[ianoid]

It's hard to compare the 2600 sections and NES sections. However, the comment about Air Raid (?) and Video Life do make sense. Sean Kelly told me that one of the Commavid guys (who started the company) actually say that he thought that Video Life wasn't even released. Discovery of a few boxes doesn't make it released. Still, we keep it on the released list.

Air Raid I don't really believe was released here, yet it remains on the list.

So basically using that as the example, we often have things of uncertain origin or released status on our DP game lists.

Having said that I contradictorily don't believe that the Sachen games belong on the released N.America list. Many of us have found foreign carts in the US, which doesn't make them released. Sure, moving the Panesian games off of the NA list would help end this argument (as well as Cheetahmen- and what about Action 52?), and I wouldn't be opposed to it.

Have these questionable unlicensed titles been tried on PAL or Hong Kong released NESes? Are we certain that they don't work on just any NES? What about trying them on Brazilian systems? Brazil has been a rampant source of many original items, including rather technically advanced hacks and original releases.

Here is another 2600 analogy. Are Zellers titles on the US released list for Atari 2600? Nope. Sachen = Zellers in my book.

ian

[TheRedEye]

Well whereever you put the sachens you can put my 72 pin 1200 in 1 entertainment computer system cart and my 80 in 1 cartridge story II and my "chinese" smb 3

Explain the similarities, if you please. Or if you've got nothing to offer other than "WAH NO I REFUSE," then get out. If you think Sachens are in the same category as bootlegs, then you either haven't read the past seven pages or your brain operates on different principles than the rest of the world.

[Dr. Morbis]

The fact that I could only get these DURING THE LIFETIME OF THE SYSTEM is to MAIL ORDER them from overseas, is enough for me to categorize them as Imports.
Excellent point. The pro-Sachen argument amounts to this:
available via mail order from overseas + works perfectly on my NES system = bonafide US release.

The Panesian games were not available for purchase through any retail outlet, and you had to place an order for them from their distributor. This is exactly the same manner in which the Sachen games were available for purchase (at least that's what I'm contending). Neither the Sachen nor Panesian games were manufactured in the US, nor by a US company.
You are missing the one major difference between the Panesians and the Sachens. The Panesians were ACTIVELY marketed to video/rental stores in the US during the NES era. If they weren't, there would have been no more than one or two fluke Panesian carts found in the US (just like Sachen) because NO ONE in the US would have known of their existence to be able to order them from overseas.

This is the problem with the release vs. retail conundrum. The fact is that every single game in the US section was ACTIVELY marketed to the US and ACTIVELY distributed to the US during the NES era ***except*** the Sachens and Cheetahmen II. Neither belong on the US release list. The reason that Cheetahmen II IS on it is because the cart was by a US company and intended SOLELY for a US release. Furthermore, the guide specifically warns collectors that this game is "technically unreleased". A collector can then choose to flag that one game and ignore it if they are strictly going for US releases. But it is much more difficult to flag out Sachens in a list that is so innaccurate that it misrepresents the history of 65 games.

Just out of curiosity, is there any other US NES list out there that contains the Sachens? I know that Krieg's list doesn't, nor does Etler's ancient list, but how about the Video Game Bible or any others?

[D_N_G]

Explain the similarities, if you please. Or if you've got nothing to offer other than "WAH NO I REFUSE," then get out. If you think Sachens are in the same category as bootlegs, then you either haven't read the past seven pages or your brain operates on different principles than the rest of the world.


similarites =

all 3 purchased via mail order from an import store between 1993-1994
all 3 ntsc 72 pin in US style carts with no convertors
all 3 NTSC
all 3 bypass lockout chip


do you just like being a prick to anyone who says something different, and put them down with a condescending post?

Did I say no i refuse?

all I said is that they belong in the same type category and should be listed if the sachens have a chance, then why not these?

let me rephrase, if there is a "marketed cart" available for purchase to the US, it deserves a "guide listing" on the principals of all the posts. I am not comparing bootlegs to sachens, merely stating that they deserve a listing, original content or not

[D_N_G]

This is how I feel perfectly summed up by orrimarko




I'm sorry, I don't follow this logical path here.

Quite honestly, I don't think that ANY non-licensed, non-retail NES game should count towards the "official collection." Just my opinion.

That makes it unambiguous - NO SEAL, NO DEAL. No protos, no NWC, no Tengen black carts, no Color Dreams, no Sachen, etc.

You have a clear, definitive list that Nintendo itself can supply you with.

The acknowledgement of ALL of the non-licensed games is important to mark the history of the system, but they simply aren't part of the US NES list.

This eliminates the debates about pirate carts, distribution, and anything else that you can argue over.

HOWEVER...

While that is my opinion about what the collection should be, I personally include the non-licensed games in my collection, for two main reasons:

1. They are an interesting part of video game history, and I think that it's important to acknowledge their existence.

2. The licensed list of US games is easy as hell to complete and there isn't that much of a challenge there. There are 3-5 semi difficult/expensive carts to find, and that's about it. A credit card and eBay, and you could almost be done in a weekend. (Yes, I am slightly exaggerrating for effect.) By adding the unlicensed carts and other oddities into my collecting, I can extend the life of the hunt, and it makes it more challenging.

That's pretty much it for me.


Technically if you get down to it a guide with correct information would include the following sections:

Officially Recognized Releases by NOA (as found on their website)
Unliscensed Main Category with 3 Sub Categories:-
Unliscensed US based carts
Unliscensed Non-US NTSC Original Content
Unliscensed Reprogrammed
Not Intended for Sale
Homebrew/AfterMarket
Unreleased
Rumor Mill
Hardware/Accessories

[D_N_G]

There is one question that I have: Do the Asian Nintendo "official releases" (the ones with US NTSC type carts, but small boxes) for the Hong Kong Area market have a US patents?

[dave2236]

Ok, I've just skimmed tha last 5 pages and didn't see this question answered.

has anyone ever found an order form or a US distributor advertisement for purchasing Sachen games?

[Dr. Morbis]

D_N_G wrote:
Technically if you get down to it a guide with correct information would include the following sections:

Officially Recognized Releases by NOA (as found on their website)
Unliscensed Main Category with 3 Sub Categories:-
Unliscensed US based carts
Unliscensed Non-US NTSC Original Content
Unliscensed Reprogrammed
Not Intended for Sale
Homebrew/AfterMarket
Unreleased
Rumor Mill
Hardware/Accessories

@D_N_G: By 'reprogrammed' do you mean non-original "pirated" content? If so, I think that it is a very bad idea to list pirated software in the DP guide(and probably impossible to compile). I also don't think that the powers that be would be willing to fracture the NES list into that many subcategories. However, there is a solution that would only require the addition of one more category, and it would only affect the NES section of the guide:

-US game releases
-non-US NTSC 72-pin games
-followed by all the rest of the categories that are already in the guide.

All of the Sachens and any other non-US findings would be listed in this new non-US category. Cheetahmen II and NWC could still be listed with the US releases, as long as a special note in their descriptions made it perfectly clear that these two games are "technically unreleased".

[orrimarrko]

-US game releases
-non-US NTSC 72-pin games
-followed by all the rest of the categories that are already in the guide.

All of the Sachens and any other non-US findings would be listed in this new non-US category. Cheetahmen II and NWC could still be listed with the US releases, as long as a special note in their descriptions made it perfectly clear that these two games are "technically unreleased".

As much as I think I know what you are trying to say here, I think that what you have actually said doesn't help to solve our problem.

"US game releases" is exactly what we have now, hence much of the confusion. No change = problem not solved.

"Non-US NTSC 72-pin games" - jesus, I would seriously HAVE to know what that was to even understand the category.

Finally, I think that it is a HORRIBLE idea to include the NWC carts in with the general releases. They were simply not manufactured with the intent to sell or distribute, and should be kept in a separate section. Adding the "techinically not released" footnote is kind of weak.

Again, I believe that I know what you're saying, but since we're dealing with semantics here, I felt the need to get nitpicky.

[orrimarrko]

I truly think that there are two ways we can go from here, because let's face it - there is no proof that has been supplied that will change the opinions of the "Sachens of America" faction. Also, the "Sachen Separatists" aren't going to budge either, quite frankly.

So again, I believe there are two solutions, either of which should be EXTREMELY easy to implement, without changing the overall structure of the NES section of the guide.

I would like to think that I have made many good points throughout the life of this thread, and while I am not trying to be cocky here, I will re-emphasize a couple of them (while integrating them into the two solutions.)

1. There are constant comparisons to Cheetahmen II, the Panesians, and the Sachen games. I believe that this is like comparing apples, oranges and bananas.

The Cheetahmen II game WAS produced by Active Enterprises Ltd., with a copyright of 1992. This was the same manufacturer that produced the horrible Action 52 cartridge, which WAS distributed within the US - that's a fact. It doesn't matter that this guy made these in his garage, or whatever the legend proclaims. He had a marketing campaign, sold them to retailers, and it should be treated EXACTLY like any Color Dreams unlicensed game, the Caltron 6-in-1 cart, etc. The Cheetahmen II game SHOULD be included in the US releases section for the following reasons:

-produced in the US with the intent to distribute
-manufacturer had previous US release
-game was manufactured during the official lifespan of the NES system (1992)

Again, there is NO reason that it shouldn't be included in the US release section just because they never made it out the door. Consider them a lost stash that were recovered; a warehouse find or whatever you want to call them. I'm fairly certain that SOMEONE else had a copy prior to the "big haul", regardless of how they got them. Either way, I feel that there are more than enough reasons for it to stay, and that it is TOTALLY different from the Sachens.

The Panesian games are more similar to the Sachens than Cheetahmen II, but I think the biggest point to consider here is that there actually were PROVEN channels of distribution to the US. Because these games couldn't be sold in KMart doesn't mean that they weren't released in the US! Come on people, common sense should prevail here. They could ONLY be sold to rental stores, XXX stores and mom & pop video stores. How the hell else could they sell them? The laws of commerce here in the US forced Panesian to openly market them as a niche product; a gimmick NES game that had nudity. Something that you could rent or buy from a store that you could show to your friends, etc. This product had a limited distribution, because that distribution HAD TO BE LIMITED.

It is a FACT that they were sold to rental stores and other non-traditional retailers, because those who bought them direct, sold them used when they sold off their NES stock. X rated stores sold them off new and used during the same period. This is the single most compelling argument that can be made to keep the Panesians where they are. I don't own them yet, so there's no bias here (honestly, they're too damn expensive.) Regardless, they may or may not have been made here, but they were definitely produced for the US market, and physically sold to various retail and rental outlets in the US.

Finally, I have to re-emphasize my labelling these as NTSC imports. Even you said it yourself Red Eye, they were "available by Mail Order" only (I'm slightly paraphrasizing.) If you couldn't buy them within the US somehow, during the lifetime of the system, then they weren't US releases. They may have hoped to enter the US market, but there is no proof that they actually did.

The bottom line for this long first solution (sorry to ramble, I get carried away) is to move the Sachen games into the "Non US Releases" section of the guide, and put a notation in the description, "NTSC format - will work on your US NES system" (or something like that.) Leave the Cheetahmen II and Panesian games where they are.

OR

2. It's a practical and physical IMPOSSIBILITY to prove that something didn't happen - that's why a defendant in a court case doesn't have to prove that they "didn't do it." The entire onus is on the prosecution to prove that the accused is guilty (and beyond a reasonable doubt, nonetheless.)

I feel that the same treatment should be used here. It should be the responsibility of the "Sachens of America" crew to prove unequivocally that they were US releases. Not insist that they were until we prove otherwise. That's not going to happen, because we can't - it's not possible.

My recommendation is to move them out of the US release section altogether (see Solution 1 above), or to separate them into a licensed vs. unlicensed subcategory, within the section.

Even if you were to do this, I would still recommend a notation making it clear that there are mixed reviews as to whether they were actually released in the US or not.

I obviously like solution 1 more than 2, but leaving them there until we come up with a photostat of a Taiwanese catalog stating, "NEW SACHEN GAMES - NOT FOR RELEASE IN THE USA" is simply as absurd as this topic.

Sorry to ramble on, but I have to go with common sense on this one.

[Dr. Morbis]

@orrimarrko: as stated earlier in this post, seperating the NES list into liscenced and unliscenced won't solve anything. The fact that they are in a list of unliscenced US releases IMPLIES that they belong in any compiled US release list.

However, I agree with your point about not being able to prove a negative. I mentioned this point earlier in the thread but I guess it went unnoticed.

I tried (vainly) to prove that the Sachens do not deserve comparison with Cheetahmen II or the panesians, but I think that you articulated this perfectly.

The solution you proposed first, however, is right on the money. The new category containing the Sachens could be called Non-US releases, or NTSC imports (the latter being my preference). Either way, a note about their functionality on US machines should be present. I beleive that clearer heads will prevail here and we will probably end up seeing this come about by the time DP 8 comes about.

Excellent post by the way :D !

[portnoyd]

Against Sachen:

1. No concrete evidence of three found copies were sold by Sachen in the
U.S.
2. No concrete evidence that any other copies were sold in the U.S.
3. No evidence that the patent issued in the U.S. was for protection of
items for sale in the U.S.
4. Facts such as NTSC and 72-pin are irrelevant to the discussion.

For Cheetahmen II:

1. Price tag on box in U.S. dollars.
2. Made in the U.S. tag on box.
3. Production games found stored in the U.S.

For Panesian:

1. Concrete evidence that the titles were sold into U.S. rental stores.
2. BBB Prototype found in the hands of Phil Mikkelson of AVE.

My recommendation as current co-editor of the NES section: Panesians and
Cheetahmen II stay. Sachens will be removed to Non U.S. Releases or another category to be defined later.

[portnoyd]

But seriously, I think the Sachens should be moved to a new section, World Releases.

Were they US releases? With World Releases, it doesn't matter. They can be, if they want. Or if you don't like that idea, then mentally exclude the US. We won't mind.

Orrrimarko, Dr. Morbis, thanks for finally agreeing with me. :)

dave

[1bigmig]

My recommendation as current co-editor of the NES section: Panesians and Cheetahmen II stay. Sachens will be removed to Non U.S. Releases or another category to be defined later.

Thank you, although now we need a recommendation from theredeye...unless you have the upper hand of authority. ;)

[Dr. Morbis]

Well, there's one recommendation. We're headed in the right direction. I'm curious to know how many NES editors make up the voting committee. I'm not too worried though if Joe has the finally say. I'm sure he's a stickler for historical accuracy :-D .

[TheRedEye]

DNG, I wasn't being a prick without merit. You seemed to be implying...nay, you WERE implying...that Sachen carts belong in the same category as bootlegs, which is absolutely fucking absurd. You had no solid argument for it, in my mind you still don't, and my post was basically saying "if you've got nothing to contribute, don't contribute at all, because all you're doing is pissing me off."

In other words, "back that shit up." You still haven't.

(fyi: I'm not touching bootlegs. If they ever appear in a Digital Press guide, it will be well after my time)

As for the suggestion of putting them in an "international section" or whatever...hmm, that sounds familiar (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3406) (bottom post).

Also, for what it's worth, I never said mailorder exclusive. I said retailers could order these things from Taiwan, just as they ordered Capcom games from Capcom...in America.

I still say they're in the same category as Panesians. If a flea market vendor could attest to ordering and selling Sachen games back in 1993 or so, would that change everything?

This debate isn't over. I may be a little stubborn, but keep in mind that I have no loyalty to these things. I fucking hate them. I'm just trying to do this right. But, as I said probably over a year ago, I'll move them "due to popular demand." I want them gone just as much as you guys, but I still personally feel that technicalities merit them staying.

Here, Dave:

http://www.theredeye.net/hugeinsect.jpg

OMG O SO RARE!

[TheRedEye]

Next time on TheRedEye Hates You All:

http://www.theredeye.net/fightinghero.jpg

SUPER MEGA GAMES! Will the other collectors laugh if you don't own these? Will TheRedEye laugh if you DO? Stay tuned!

[Dr. Morbis]

I still say they're in the same category as Panesians. If a flea market vendor could attest to ordering and selling Sachen games back in 1993 or so, would that change everything?
@TheRedEye: I don't believe that this would change anything because I think that the Panesians are different from the Sachens for two distinct reasons:

1. As far as we know, the Panesians were made solely for US distribution. (I realize that this is speculation: if you have found evidence to the contrary please present it). Whereas the Sachens were made for another market(s). If Sachen received an order from the US they would simply ship them the American version.

2. The Panesians were ACTIVELY marketed to US vendors only. That means that they were made FOR the American market and distributed to the US only (albeit through very small channels).

As a result, the ONLY attribute that the Panesians and Sachens have in common, in my view, is that they both manufactured their games outside of the US.

[rbudrick]

Excellent posts, portnoyd and orrimarrko. I agree 100% on all points.

@ TheredEye:

Also, for what it's worth, I never said mailorder exclusive. I said retailers could order these things from Taiwan, just as they ordered Capcom games from Capcom...in America.


Well if they ordered them from Taiwan, doesn't that make them imports by definition?

Now you say if you ordered from them, they would send you the US version. Which games did and did not have a US version? All 65 of them?

A section called "72-Pin US Compaitible Imports" really does seem to be a perfect solution for now....if we can sort out which ones had "US versions" and which didn't.

-Rob

[leonk]

Folks,

weren't all the NES games (and even systems) made outside the US? All my carts say "Made in Japan".

[rbudrick]

Yes, but the distributor was in the US.

-Rob

[KlarthAilerion]

the Panesians were made solely for US distribution
That is accurate, to a degree. The three games that were published by Panesian were manufactured for sale in the US market. However, the games were not developed solely for the US market. They were published by Hacker International for use on the Famicom. At some point, the games were retitled and repackaged for sale in the US.


As a result, the ONLY attribute that the Panesians and Sachens have in common, in my view, is that they both manufactured their games outside of the US.
The "ONLY" attribute they have in common is where they were manufactured? What about all of the other details that are the same for games of both companies?

1. Developed by a foreign company with no office in the US
2. Unlicensed by Nintendo for play on the NES
3. 72-pin, NTSC cartridge with NES lockout chip circumvention method
etc. (it's all been posted in the thread already)

As another poster has already pointed out, almost all NES games were manufactured outside of the US. In fact, I'm not sure on this, but Action 52 may have been the only cartridge manufactured inside the US that was released for sale to the public.


Well if they ordered them from Taiwan, doesn't that make them imports by definition?
Not necessarily.. if a game publisher doesn't have an office in the US, that doesn't mean that they can't publish games for sale in the US. The retail locations place orders through their distributors, who in turn place orders with the manufacturers and see that the retail locations' orders are filled. The publisher's responsibility is to have the game code ready to be manufactured into the chips by the manufacturer. In the case of licensed games, I think that all of this went through Nintendo (as the middle man between the publisher and the manufacturerr). Obviously, manufacturing and distribution of unlicensed games would have to go through different channels.


Now I've got a different question to ask everybody. If the Sachen games (or at least some of them) were found to have been available via the same means that the Panesian games are widely accepted to have been available (rental store, etc) during the same time frame that the Panesian games were available, would you still have trouble seeing the games published by Sachen as unlicensed US releases?

Also, if a fourth or fifth game published by Panesian were to be found in the US now with the same conditionals as the currently known Panesian and Sachen games (unlicensed, 72-pin NTSC cartridge with a copyright date of ~1990-1993), would you contend that that game was not a US release? Why, or why not?

[TheRedEye]

What, exactly, defines a "distributor?"

This fucking debate will never end. It will take a firm understanding of Taiwanese business practices, which are nothing like our own, as well as sales sheets, order forms, and retailer confessions.

Dave, I hope you'll agree with this, as Joe does, but I'm giving Sachen its own section. Not "international releases," not "world," not "foreign," just Sachen. I want to make it very, very obvious that these things are not yet definable, and I'm going to compose a great opening covering all the points we've made.

So let's try to sum up this debate.

PROS (aka reasons these should be included in the American section of the guide):


American Copyrights (expired as of August, I'll look these up again if absolutely necessary)

American Patents for Cart Design (again, if absolutely necessary, I'll upload these)

Available via mailorder. I can provide proof for, I believe, 1998 or 1999, though my assumption, based on the products themselves, is that they were available starting in 1992.

NTSC Format

72 Pin

Zaps the American lockout chip

Specifically translated to English, as most of the early ones were originally in Chinese

CONS:


Very, very rarely found in secondhand shops in the United States. I mean like, OMG rare, as in, out of fifty-six titles, we only know of three being found. That deserves a second and third OMG. OMG.

No real proof of distribution during the system's "life cycle," which we're saying ended with Sunday Funday. This is an argument in and of itself, but let's just stick with tradition for now.

Not marketed or advertised, to our knowledge, in the United States. A weak argument, as the United States was probably the least profitable of all of Sachen's target countries, but an argument nonetheless.


Give me more.

I think the problem here is the context of the guide. I don't think these things are definable in our ethnocentric categories, and therefore, we'll just sweep them to the side. We'll call attention to them, let everyone know that they exist, give unbiased facts, but say that they're indefinable.

[Dr. Morbis]

Klarthailerion wrote:
The "ONLY" attribute they have in common is where they were manufactured? What about all of the other details that are the same for games of both companies?

1. Developed by a foreign company with no office in the US
2. Unlicensed by Nintendo for play on the NES
3. 72-pin, NTSC cartridge with NES lockout chip circumvention method
etc. (it's all been posted in the thread already)
I meant the only attribute relevant to this discussion. As pointed out by portnoyd and a few others, none of your points (1.-3.) are factors in distinguishing between US and non-US releases. My point was that the location where the cartridges were made is irrelevant for both Panesians and Sachens. It is the OTHER qualities (outlined in my previous post) that differentiate the two companies.

The three games that were published by Panesian were manufactured for sale in the US market. However, the games were not developed solely for the US market. They were published by Hacker International for use on the Famicom. At some point, the games were retitled and repackaged for sale in the US.
This is no different than Nintendo translating the in-game text of their famicom games into english, slapping them into a 72-pin cart, and shipping them over to the US. It is also no different that Sachen doing the same with their "American versions". However, when classifying games as US releases, this is obviously not the determining factor. Panesian and Nintendo ACTIVELY marketed and distributed their games to the US, Sachen did not. As far as we know, all of Sachen's American versions were made to order. After receiving an order from an American, they could slap together enough cartridges as was necessary to complete the order. It is highly unlikely that they mass-produced their American versions, piled them up in a warehouse, and waited for random orders from America to come pouring in. No evidence has ever been found that would suggest that Sachen did any marketing or distribution whatsoever.
With Sachens it was:
-you buy first, they ship (produce?) later.
With all US releases it was:
-produce FOR the US and ACTIVELY market and distribute your product, THEN (hopefully), sell later.

One final note. Finding another Panesian is PURELY HYPOTHETICAL. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it (if ever). For the sake of argumentation, hypothetical situations are a dying man's last breath.

[rbudrick]

Con: American 72 pin NESs were common in Asia.
Pro: Non-American 72 pin NEss were also common (I've never actually seen one though...would be interesting to get a hold of one...)

Now, was the lockout indeed different across regions? To know the difference in every regions lockout here would be extremely helpful to all involved in this.

-Rob

[portnoyd]

Dave, I hope you'll agree with this, as Joe does, but I'm giving Sachen its own section. Not "international releases," not "world," not "foreign," just Sachen. I want to make it very, very obvious that these things are not yet definable, and I'm going to compose a great opening covering all the points we've made.

A Sachen section, with a short preface basically containing up 7 pages of posts sounds good to me. You never know, bringing focus on them could bring out some retailer who actually attempted to sell these things in the U.S.

It may even make sense, especially with all this debate, to start a MB on, like, boardhost, for people to discuss. Nothing complicated, but reading Ward Shrake's sections in DP7, it can be seen that an open forum can help out a lot.

Re: Huge Insect

OMFG SO RARE, HOLD ME

Re: Fighting Hero

But we know those are brazilian releases, right? Or did you dig up info to the contrary?

My basis for Panesians staying in US over Sachen is two of my Panesians came with rental labels from a rental store in Arkansas, saying Rated X as well. They were available in some form in the U.S. No, I don't have them anymore, I goo goned them off shortly after I got them.

And when I say the patent for the lockup chip is irrelevant, I mean we don't know what their intentions for it was. Possible theories arise, such as they deved a lockout chip to sell to US unlicensed companies (as they sold games to CD), or that they were just squatting it because it could mean more money, or that they had intentions to manufacture in the U.S. Like I said earlier, there is no concrete proof for any of these.

dave

[D_N_G]

there is no merit to be a prick at all among these boards no matter the circumstances

[TheRedEye]

Oh stop. There's no reason to be arguing. You said something dumb with no merit, and I snapped at you. The end.

[Darth Vader]

My basis for Panesians staying in US over Sachen is two of my Panesians came with rental labels from a rental store in Arkansas, saying Rated X as well. They were available in some form in the U.S. No, I don't have them anymore, I goo goned them off shortly after I got them.

dave

That is how I ended up with my Panesians as well. :) They were bought from a rental store (amazingly also from the Arkansas area). :/ I just felt it was too quick to place the sachens in the US section and until a concrete source of information can give us the full answer, they should stay out.

Danny