Nintendo NUMBER 2 YEHAW

[EnemyZero]

OK, I'm not sure if this has been posted but....HELL YEAH according to various sources, PS2 dropped 25% in the gaming market and Nintendo flew up 30% and is at #2. All I been reading about is all this hype on new hardware coming out and man...I havnt been this excited since...well since my dad bought me a sega genesis out of the kindness of his heart for no reason!!!!!! YEHAW PARTY TIME...ok nowits your turn to rant and rave...and or complain

[Jasoco]

You need to post sources or you look like a lying fanboy.

Please! Show me some proof!!!

[Drexel923]

You need to post sources or you look like a lying fanboy.

Please! Show me some proof!!!

http://cube.ign.com/articles/463/463376p1.html

http://cube.ign.com/articles/463/463155p1.html

[Retsudo]

.ok nowits your turn to rant and rave...and or complain

Complain? Shit, I could care less LOL LOL LOL

[Jasoco]

Mixed.. emotions.. Microsoft.. must.. not.. fail.. wait a minute.. what am I saying... Microsoft sucks.. should die.. but no.. can't let Xbox die... PS2 should be #3.. Microsoft #2.. Augh!!! EMOTIONS ARE ALL MIXED!! STOP PLAYING WITH MY HEAD!!!

[Cmosfm]

My order of favorite next gen systems

1. Playstation 2
2. Gamecube
3. Xbox

And that's going by games, not specs or how long the system lasts *glaringly eyes my PS2, then eyes my 2nd Gamecube, broken first time by a coca-cola mishap. Spots Xbox, laughs heartily*

[Ze_ro]

iN joo f4c3!1!! XbOx sU><orzz!!!!@!!!!!11!1!!!

Sorry, something about this thread really needed some moronic leet speak.

--Zero

[buttasuperb]

Xbox > PS2 > GC

[GaijinPunch]

It's about time. I think the Xbox is a very cool machine, but doesn't have near enough games to follow up. Emulation and watching videos on it are the only thing that make it worth while, besides JSRF and Panzer Dragoon Orta. :)

[buttasuperb]

It's about time. I think the Xbox is a very cool machine, but doesn't have near enough games to follow up. Emulation and watching videos on it are the only thing that make it worth while, besides JSRF and Panzer Dragoon Orta. :)

Xbox Live
Crimson Skies
CvS2

Other reasons making it worth while, imooooooooooooooo.

[Jasoco]

It's about time. I think the Xbox is a very cool machine, but doesn't have near enough games to follow up. Emulation and watching videos on it are the only thing that make it worth while, besides JSRF and Panzer Dragoon Orta. :)Nah, the Xbox has a few good games and awesome potential, but Nintendo is Nintendo. And you can't kill Nintendo. I'm happy for them. But if there was one system I'd want to see go away, it's Sony's. But that ain't going to happen. So we need to keep all three in the market.

The way I see it, Sony won't leave. They've got too much of a hold on the market.

Microsoft won't leave. They have money to fund this thing for years whether it does good or bad. They will MAKE it work.

Nintendo has resources too, and all the big names in video games. (Hey, sorry, I didn't mean to rhyme.) So I don't see THEM leaving either.

I think maybe this time there may be room in the market for three systems. It should be a fun ride.

[GameGuru]

If I could have only one system it would be X-Box thanks to emulation on it. If it was a choice between PS2 and Cube I would go Cube because of Mario Kart, Zelda, Mario and Metroid. Most 3rd party come out for all systems but I can only get those four games on a Nintendo machine so there is no way you could choose a PS2 if you could only have one system.

[zmweasel]

OK, I'm not sure if this has been posted but....HELL YEAH according to various sources, PS2 dropped 25% in the gaming market and Nintendo flew up 30% and is at #2. All I been reading about is all this hype on new hardware coming out and man...I havnt been this excited since...well since my dad bought me a sega genesis out of the kindness of his heart for no reason!!!!!! YEHAW PARTY TIME...ok nowits your turn to rant and rave...and or complain

And now for the anti-fanboy perspective.

#1: It's not "various sources," it's NINTENDO ITSELF stating that its own sales estimates place it in second. Hardly an unbiased source of information.

#2: Microsoft states that its own sales estimates place IT in second.

#3: NPD/TRST Xmas and year-end sales figures aren't yet available, and those will provide a true picture of the state of the Hardware Wars at the end of '03.

#4: The boost in sales is attributable to the price drop to $99, which means this is a Phyrric "victory" for Nintendo, since they're losing buku bucks on every system sold. The fact that none of Nintendo's triple-A GAMES was enough to spur hardware sales is a major concern.

#5: Nintendo says they've now sold 6.8 million GameCubes in North America. The PS2 has sold more than three times that many, well past the 20 million mark. The Cube may have moved into second place, but it will ALWAYS be in second place.

#6: When the PS2 price drop occurs, the PS2 will experience a similar sales boost and take back most, if not all, of the ground that the Cube has gained.

#7: Third-party software still isn't selling on the GameCube; only on PS2 and, to a much lesser degree, Xbox. Take away the PS2, which has a larger market share than the Cube and Xbox combined, and the console industry implodes.

-- Z.

[buttasuperb]

Most 3rd party come out for all systems but I can only get those four games on a Nintendo machine so there is no way you could choose a PS2 if you could only have one system.

I would. Well, at least over GC.

Because I think the new Mario, Zelda, and Mario Kart do not due justice to their series. Metroid Prime is ok though.

[zmweasel]

Most 3rd party come out for all systems but I can only get those four games on a Nintendo machine so there is no way you could choose a PS2 if you could only have one system.

Not true. Many third-party releases ship only for PS2 and Xbox, because the majority of third-party GameCube titles sell poorly. Many third-party GCN titles have been publicly or quietly cancelled.

-- Z.

[calthaer]

#4: The boost in sales is attributable to the price drop to $99, which means this is a Phyrric "victory" for Nintendo, since they're losing buku bucks on every system sold.

I just...can't resist. It's "beaucoup" bucks, not "buku." Beaucoup being French for "lots." It's almost as bad as the English teachers calling the publishing house I work for and asking for the book ANTI-GONE.

[EnemyZero]

OK its burst my bubble day >.< lol. The only reason im so excited is because well...I just am...I will always be a slave to the 8-bit and 16-bit systems, and will follow to the grave seeing as how my sega is no more >.< either way...yeah i agree on the situation...personally i think bill gates is pouring money into the xbox ..and its pointless...dont get me wrong, i enjoy the xbox...accually way more than ps2..i think the xbox is aimed to more hardcore gamers..alot of sega remakes...and sequals and just sega period..but what good games the system does have are amazing games....
the ps2...pfttt I could only dream of sony dying ....but i dont see it happening...unles...they pour endless amounts of money into the PSP and it fails.!!! and then they are at a loss...which i dont find hard to believe may happen....i cant see sony pulling all the little kids away from gameboy and there pokemon games...EVER so many have tried..and all have failed!!!

[SoulBlazer]

It's sad to see third party GC games selling so poorly, becuase if I can pick between the GC and the PS2 version, I'll get the GC one hands down. Done this allready with several games, the most recent being NCAA Football 2004.

If the GC has a larger installed base now then the XBox, which SEEMS to be true, why so few games coming out for it?

[§ Gideon §]

The way I see it, Sony won't leave. They've got too much of a hold on the market.

the ps2...pfttt I could only dream of sony dying ....but i dont see it happening
Dudes, don't forget the past.

[WiseSalesman]

It's almost as bad as the English teachers calling the publishing house I work for and asking for the book ANTI-GONE.

......

O_O

Give me those English teachers' addresses. Now. They need a little...."schoolin'".....from an english student, if you catch my drift.

[Videogamerdaryll]

Xbox -PS2 -GC

Just give me the games..

The Games is what I care about!!!Good Games!!

[badinsults]

There were likely tons of people like myself who decided the combination of low price plus the Zelda Collectors disc was enough to make the Gamecube desirable.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I looked at the best of 2003 list on Gamespot, and noted how Zelda was voted the best game of the year. Seeing what other titles it had to compete with, that isn't surprising. However, it wasn't because Zelda is just that great, it was because 2003 was just a year of mediocre releases. I hope for a better 2004 for all systems, but I can't see it being that way if software stays stagnent.

[Ze_ro]

#3: NPD/TRST Xmas and year-end sales figures aren't yet available, and those will provide a true picture of the state of the Hardware Wars at the end of '03.

Of course, it all depends on what you consider as well... it's been said before that Nintendo is 2nd on a global scale, but that Microsoft is 2nd in North America. I wonder if that's still true.


#4: The boost in sales is attributable to the price drop to $99, which means this is a Phyrric "victory" for Nintendo, since they're losing buku bucks on every system sold.

The little cube is a cheap system to make though, so they're likely still profiting even with the lower price. Besides, the real money in the gaming industry is from game sales... and the more systems Nintendo pumps into households, the more potential customers they have for their games.


#5: The Cube may have moved into second place, but it will ALWAYS be in second place.

Definitely true... the PS2 is so far ahead that Nintendo and Microsoft are jockying for runner-up.

I wonder how big the "second system" market is?


#6: When the PS2 price drop occurs, the PS2 will experience a similar sales boost and take back most, if not all, of the ground that the Cube has gained.

Well, I would argue that most people who want a PS2 probably already have one, so the market for a price cut is much smaller than the market for a Gamecube price cut.

Besides, we already agreed that the PS2 was so far ahead that it didn't matter. An X-Box price cut would be more on topic (But if I recall correctly, Microsoft stated that they would only drop the price if Sony did, so maybe this is on topic anyways).


#7: Third-party software still isn't selling on the GameCube

I still can't understand why people think this is a bad thing... if people aren't buying third party games for the Gamecube, then it stands to reason that they're buying Nintendo's games... It can therefor be assumed that Nintendo makes excellent games. Since these games are exclusive to the Gamecube, then this is a point in favor of the Gamecube!

I suppose it's bad news for the third-party companies in the long run, but this should be good news for consumers.

--Zero

[Zubiac666]

I still can't understand why people think this is a bad thing... if people aren't buying third party games for the Gamecube, then it stands to reason that they're buying Nintendo's games... It can therefor be assumed that Nintendo makes excellent games. Since these games are exclusive to the Gamecube, then this is a point in favor of the Gamecube!

I suppose it's bad news for the third-party companies in the long run, but this should be good news for consumers.

--Zero

most third party developers know that they can't match with nintendo titles.
Isn't it weird that developers cancel games cause they are too stupid/lazy to make them worth for gamecubers? It's like the developers say: "Damn,Ninty has to stop making good software! Than I'll support Gamecube again."

@zmweasel :
Nintendo is still the only one who makes money with hardware.They do not loose it on hardware sales.
:)

[zmweasel]

#4: The boost in sales is attributable to the price drop to $99, which means this is a Phyrric "victory" for Nintendo, since they're losing buku bucks on every system sold.

I just...can't resist. It's "beaucoup" bucks, not "buku." Beaucoup being French for "lots." It's almost as bad as the English teachers calling the publishing house I work for and asking for the book ANTI-GONE.

I know it's "beaucoup." I just prefer to creatively violate the language. I also write "edumacation" and "bidness" instead of "education" and "business," much to my editors' chagrin.

Incidentally, what's with "I just...can't resist"? What was it about my post that set you off, as opposed to the atrocious grammar in half the posts on the forum?

-- Z.

[atomicthumbs]

I guess I really don't care who's first, second or seventh.... There are loads of games that I LOVE for all three systems!


Current three favorites on all systems for no real reason at all...

GCN -
Star Wars: Rogue Squadron III - Rebel Strike
Resident Evil
Mario Kart - Double Dash

XBOX -
Crimson Skies
Blood Wake
Star Wars - Knights of the Old Republic

PS2 -
Final Fantasy X-2
Skygunner
Mister Mosquito

[zmweasel]

If the GC has a larger installed base now then the XBox, which SEEMS to be true, why so few games coming out for it?

Because it takes an average 18-24 months to developer a top-tier game, and it's too late for developers to start jumping on the GameCube wagon now. By the time those late-blooming games were completed, the Cube would be "dead" in the marketplace.

For better or worse, GameCube owners only buy Nintendo-published products. I posted in another thread on this forum about how few third-party GCN titles were in the top 100 for the first half of 2003; I don't expect that percentage to change at all in the second half.

-- Z.

[hezeuschrist]

#4: The boost in sales is attributable to the price drop to $99, which means this is a Phyrric "victory" for Nintendo, since they're losing buku bucks on every system sold.

If by "losing buku bucks" you mean "still makes profit", then your statement is correct!

[zmweasel]

most third party developers know that they can't match with nintendo titles.Isn't it weird that developers cancel games cause they are too stupid/lazy to make them worth for gamecubers? It's like the developers say: "Damn,Ninty has to stop making good software! Than I'll support Gamecube again."

Fanboys come up with the strangest theories! It's not that third parties "know they can't match" Nintendo's own efforts; it's that third-party GameCube releases DO NOT SELL. Third parties are going to focus their time and money on the PS2, which has the largest user base, and a user base that buys third-party releases.


@zmweasel :
Nintendo is still the only one who makes money with hardware.They do not loose it on hardware sales. :)

Oh sweet fucking Christ. MUST we go into this again? Nintendo is NOT MAKING MONEY on the $99 GameCube, which is an outsourced piece of hardware with other companies' tech inside it. Sony makes money on the $199 PS2 because it handles all the hardware itself, from R&D to manufacturing.

-- Z.

[hezeuschrist]

Incidentally, what's with "I just...can't resist"? What was it about my post that set you off, as opposed to the atrocious grammar in half the posts on the forum?

-- Z.

Just a common thread of idiocy that eventually builds and builds until you see it one more time and you just explode. Now, while you're a writer and likely know the language better than most of the retards on the net, it doesn't stop seeing crap like that from being annoying... no difference between '1337 |-|4><0|2' and 'buku'.

I nearly did it for whoever the fuck said "I could care less" for the billionth time. I COULD NOT CARE LESS IS THE CORRECT STATEMENT FOR THE EMOTION YOU ARE FAILING TO CONVEY. 'I could care less' means you do give a shit about the topic at hand, even though you think otherwise.

[spoon]

Too beaucoup?

Anyhow, Slash the price of your system to half of your competitors, and have the household name thing going on, and see what happens. I am a Nintendo fanboy, and I hate this "We are number two now" crap.

[zmweasel]

[quote=zmweasel]Of course, it all depends on what you consider as well... it's been said before that Nintendo is 2nd on a global scale, but that Microsoft is 2nd in North America. I wonder if that's still true.

Nintendo *is* second worldwide, and has been for quite some time, as the Xbox doesn't sell and will never sell in Japan.


The little cube is a cheap system to make though, so they're likely still profiting even with the lower price. Besides, the real money in the gaming industry is from game sales... and the more systems Nintendo pumps into households, the more potential customers they have for their games.

I don't recall Nintendo claiming to be making a profit on each GameCube sold, and it's very unlikely considering the outsourced nature of the system and the rapidity of the price drop, but it's very possible I missed such an announcement, since I very rarely write about the GCN. Can anyone point me to an announcement by Nintendo in which it expliclity states "We make money on every GameCube sold"?


I wonder how big the "second system" market is?

Not sure what you mean by this. Nintendo claims almost 7 million GCNs in North America; Microsoft is presumably at or near 7 million Xboxes; Sony is at or above 21 million PS2s.


Well, I would argue that most people who want a PS2 probably already have one, so the market for a price cut is much smaller than the market for a Gamecube price cut.

If the PS2 follows the sales history of the PS1 -- and so far, it's been fairly close -- the PS2 will experience a considerable sales jump when it hits the $149 mark.


I still can't understand why people think this is a bad thing... if people aren't buying third party games for the Gamecube, then it stands to reason that they're buying Nintendo's games... It can therefor be assumed that Nintendo makes excellent games. Since these games are exclusive to the Gamecube, then this is a point in favor of the Gamecube!

It's a bad thing because third-party software brings in additional revenue and gives the consumer a wider selection from which to choose. And it's a bad thing because Nintendo's first-party titles haven't driven hardware sales; only the price drop has.

-- Z.

[nesuser2]

Sony will be a hard company to catch, but they're there for the money. If things get bad at all.....consider them out, IMO. And i'm pretty happy to see GC move up.....and I like Xbox too...but not as much as GC. I think Viewtiful Joe is reason enough to want a cube though....Everybody is naming off the Nintendo releases, but I just can't believe VJ was only for GCN and it's such an awesome title....o well :D

[zmweasel]

Just a common thread of idiocy that eventually builds and builds until you see it one more time and you just explode. Now, while you're a writer and likely know the language better than most of the retards on the net, it doesn't stop seeing crap like that from being annoying... no difference between '1337 |-|4><0|2' and 'buku'.

I just found it quite odd that my post was the one to turn calthaer into a grammar policeman, when this forum has hundreds of posts a day that are far more worthy of his attention.

-- Z.

[zmweasel]

Sony will be a hard company to catch, but they're there for the money.

Do you think Nintendo is in it for the love?

-- Z.

[SoulBlazer]

I'm curious to see how well some of the big name third party games for the GC this year, like Metal Gear Solid, Harvest Moon, Final Fantasy, and Mega Man Collection do. And it seems they sold a lot of systems when they were doing the Zelda bundle.

Frankly, I don't see the XBox as being in that great a position either.

And can we PLEASE keep it civil around here, folks? I'M the one still at work and operating on a few hours sleep after a bad night -- if ANYONE has a right to snap, it should be me, damn it! ME! :D

[Parodius]

Okay, by Nintendo's admission they have sold 6.8 million systems in the US.

According to the November NPD figures Microsoft was at 6.7 million. Microsoft certainly sold more than 100K systems in December, probably closer to a million. Nintendo might have shifted (slightly) more consoles in 2003 as a whole and that is where their figure is coming from, but as a whole the Xbox is still ahead over here.

[NvrMore]

I see the ususal argument dismissive keyword is in immediate use again though.. yay for consistency.

But, just with regard to development and manufacture costs..

I see a lot of judgement/estimation of such costs based solely on raw materials and labour without taking into account more notable points which tend to weigh very heavily on the final production cost of a console or it's media.

Notably, one of the key costs of manufacture are the initial setup costs of the facilities required to produce a given product.This initial cost is massive and isn't usually recouped until at least 2/3 of the way through the product/console's lifecycle.

In the case of producing the hardware yourself, there is a large intial cost involved in setting up the manufacturing facilities to produce the product, especially if the product uses non-standard components requiring specialised equipment and facilities.. typically costing mega money, the cost of which has to be spread out accross the console's manufacture, thus even when the facilities have been established the cost remains tacked onto the overall production cost for a long time to come.

Taking for example, Sony. Because they used non-standard components and produce the hardware themselves, their initial setup costs for the PS2 were huge, notably due to the emotion engine and graphics processor used in the system, requiring several specialised production facilities to be setup (actually, there were difficulties in the beginning leading in part to the initial supply shortfall at release and requiring further financial outlay to refit the relevant facilities).

On the other hand, in the case of the gamecube the components were manufacturable in pre-existing facilities available through outsourcing manufacture to 3rd parties, thereby eliminating the initial facility setup costs.

Additionally, because the manufacturers used already had large and comprehensive manufacturing facilities which were already in producion of similar tech, manufacturing facility upgrades and manufacture costs drop more readily and without full facility refit costs because such costs and refits are undertaken by the outsourcer and the cost spread across across their own manufacture and other outsourcing contracts for which said refits are required.

This is why Sony are using more proprietary components in their next system. Dedicated facilities for specialised hardware don't work out on a cost basis even for a company with their manufacturing resources.

Basically it costs a hell of a lot less to manufacture using proprietary components and outsourcing the work to 3rd party's (who, thanks to capitalism and a competative manufacturing market, actively bid to provide the most cost effective manufacturing solution) than it does to setup, refit and maintain facilities to do the hardware manufacture inhouse (especially when you don't already have the facilities e.g. specialist hardware).

Then, there's the argument that using a non standard media format increases costs.

Taking for example the GC's GODs. Because the company, Matsushita, who the disc manufacture was outsourced to already had the facilities to produce 8cm discs in it's factories only slightly different pressing equipment was/is required, thus no new factories had to be built.

Apart from the losses saved from piracy, the real price dropper for using GODs and their drive is actually the reason most people seem to think they would cost more.
Because GOD's aren't DVD's, the DVD forum/consortium don't get a look in(could they have made themselves sound more like a bad comic book crime syndicate). So with regard to the manufacture of both the CAV drive and the media there isn't the associated cost of using DVD media, hence the drives and media cost less to produce than a standard DVD drive and media

(actually CAV drives are somewhat easiesr to produce due to the nature of the motor's usage and the reduced requirements placed on it but that's down to the actual function of the drive itself).

Basically, the cube and it's components were designed for optimal manufacturing cost and simplicity and to bypass several associated costs. Given that N have been in the console hardware biz for some time now it's not too surprising they would have worked out the optimal manufacturing solution to suit their needs but some reason people seem to assume otherwise.

This post on hardware manufacture has been brought to you by IDuck.. the portable data storage solution that looks cute in your bath.

[zmweasel]

I see the ususal argument dismissive keyword is in immediate use again though.. yay for consistency.

Didn't we agree not to post in the same threads anymore? I assume that you no longer wish to abide by that agreement, so I'll very briefly respond.

I did a li'l research and found this quote from a December 2001 interview with Nintendo's Peter Main:

"In more general matters, Mr. Main admitted that the GameCube's pricing would not initially follow Nintendo's rule of turning a profit on every console sold. 'We expect to incur a small loss on the GameCube hardware initially, and you're right that it hasn't been our habit in the past but we expect it to turn okay early next year.'"

In other words, Nintendo was LOSING MONEY on the GameCube at $199, regardless of any "bypassed costs." It would be remarkable indeed if, a mere two years later, Nintendo was making a profit on the GameCube at $99.

Also, I should have noted earlier that Nintendo is able to eat considerable losses on GameCube hardware sales by virtue of publishing all the best-selling GameCube software.

-- Z.

[EnemyZero]

Besides, we already agreed that the PS2 was so far ahead that it didn't matter. An X-Box price cut would be more on topic (But if I recall correctly, Microsoft stated that they would only drop the price if Sony did, so maybe this is on topic anyways).


Yeah xbox cant afford another price cut (well im sure bill can but...) xbox already started at a loss when they dropped to $199.99...at release they were almost at cost selling....now they loose around 100 bucks a system, they dug themselves with the hard drives...oh and they also pay out to sony, because sony makes the dvd part on the xbox.

[NvrMore]

Didn't we agree not to post in the same threads anymore? I assume that you no longer wish to abide by that agreement, so I'll very briefly respond.

No, I agreed to end a long since dead thread. That doesn't mean I'm not going to respond to threads of interest just because you happen to have posted in it.. even if you started your responce to that thread on the wrong foot by launching into it calling people names using the usual scapegoat keyword.


In other words, Nintendo was LOSING MONEY on the GameCube at $199, regardless of any "bypassed costs." It would be remarkable indeed if, a mere two years later, Nintendo was making a profit on the GameCube at $99.

Nice way to dodge the entire manufacturing overview. However, you'll find two things useful.

#1 I never once in that huge post up there said that N made a profit on the hardware.. you assumed that yourself.

#2 I also mentioned the large initial setup costs associated with producing new hardware. Just as there is initial facility setup costs there is also R&D and in the case of outsourcing, variable rates of inital contractual production facility securing costs.

R&D would be big hidden cost #3. A large outlay that has to be recouped from the hardware's manufacture. Taking into account all hidden costs which have to be recouped through hardware, you'll actually find that, like software development costs, hardware R&D costs have increased exponentially due to public/market demand for more advanced and technically capable hardware.

Whereas cart based hardware was relativly simplistic in it's capabilities, modern disk based hardware uses a very large number of additional components, including but not limited to graphic and sound co-processors, cooling facilities, fans, memory, secondary memory etc. Thus design and prototyping for modern systems is considerably more complex and therby costly than older systems inevitably leading to higher initial outlay costs which when placed on the manufacture cost, unlike older systems is more than considerable enough to push initial profit forecasts into the negative.

Including all physical and hidden costs, you'll find that manufacturing profit for any product seldom occurs until said hidden costs have been recouped, hence the lower and fewer the initial outlays and hidden costs, the faster a product/system turns a profit and the lower the initial losses weigh on the cost of manufacturing the product.

[Parodius]

...oh and they also pay out to sony, because sony makes the dvd part on the xbox.

Right. Thomson, Samsung, or Phillips make the DVD-drives for the Xbox.

[badinsults]

To put this to rest, in an interview, a Nintendo representitive called the loss on hardware "negligible".

http://cube.ign.com/articles/463/463155p1.html?fromint=1

[badinsults]

crap, pressed the wrong button :p

[Ze_ro]

I wonder how big the "second system" market is?

Not sure what you mean by this.

I mean that I wonder how many PS2 owners are out there that are willing to buy another system. I'm sure there's quite a few people who had a PS2, and ended up buying a Gamecube just for the hell of it. At twice the price, buying an X-Box "just for the hell of it" becomes a lot less likely.

--Zero

[Parodius]

UK figures:
Sales for Dec 15 - 21
1. PlayStation 2 - 100,000 units
2. Xbox - 40,000 units
3. GameBoy Advance SP - 40,000 units
4. GameCube - 21,000 units
5. GameBoy Advance - 17,00 units
6. N-Gage - 180 units

Sales for Dec 22 - 27
1. PlayStation 2 - 90,000 units
2. Xbox - 40,000 units
3. GameBoy Advance SP - 32,000 units
4. GameCube - 20,000 units
5. GameBoy Advance - 850 units
6. N-Gage - 200 units


Sweden figures:
Marketshare for 2003:
PlayStation2 - 54,5%
Xbox - 31,9%
GameCube - 13,6%


Taken from:
http://ntsc-uk.domino.org/viewtopic.php?t=19063&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

[hezeuschrist]

The reason I say Nintendo still makes on the cube is because every report of upped sales figures after the drop to $99 had something along the lines of "how much profit nintendo still makes" or "cutting into their profit margins", which I took as they still make profit, just far less than they did at $149 or $199.

[calthaer]

I still can't understand why people think this is a bad thing... if people aren't buying third party games for the Gamecube, then it stands to reason that they're buying Nintendo's games... It can therefor be assumed that Nintendo makes excellent games. Since these games are exclusive to the Gamecube, then this is a point in favor of the Gamecube!

No, it's not. It's a bad thing because Nintendo cannot on its own complete the software library of the Gamecube and fill it out with enough good games to please every potential consumer. The Gamecube still doesn't have any blockbuster RPGs (and unless FF: Crystal Chronicles is any good, it won't for a good while), if I'm not mistaken it's aldo weak on those survival / horror / adventure games that are so popular (wasn't that Resident Evil 0 game a remake?)...in fact it's weak in just about every area. The Gamecube is becoming like the Macintosh, where you don't have much of a choice about software. Want a racing game? Then you have Kirby's, or F-Zero, or Mario Kart. Why would anyone bother to cut in with another one? Fighting game? Well, I'm not sure what's on the 'cube besides Super Smash Bros., but the PS2 has Tekken, and Street Fighter, and so on and so forth.

Bottom line is - unless you're into games overall, and like lots of different types of games - why would you want the Gamecube? The PS2 has TONS of sports games, if those float your boat. They have lots of fighting games. Oodles of racing games. If one of those genres is your cup of tea - and nothing else - then your choice is clear. Maybe some of those games are crappy, and for gaming connoisseurs like us they're boring, but for the racing / fighting game / whatever afficionado the PS2 could be his or her field of dreams.

Nintendo can't attract those people by itself - it needs the 3rd-party publishers. Their games alone, while really good, can't make a system work.

[hezeuschrist]

I remember reading somewhere, directly from nintendo, that they had in the past tried to scare off third party developers (nowhere near to the extent of the lack of support for the cube), so they wouldn't have so much "competition" when it comes down to the consumer buying games for their system. Since the software is where their biggest profit margins are, anything they could do to force the customer to buy their games was a good thing in their eyes... until they scared off too many developers and left them in the situation they are in now.

[josekortez]

Don't know which fighting games are on the Cube? Don't forget Bloody Roar: Primal Fury, Capcom vs. SNK 2 EO, Godzilla: All Monsters Melee, Soul Calibur 2, and X-Men: Next Dimension. I would also include Def Jam Vendetta and Ultimate Muscle on that list, even though they're alternative wrestling games. Besides, not everyone wants fighting, sports, and RPGs, although those seem to be the dominating genres among mainstream fans.

Also, Resident Evil was the remake, and Resident Evil 0 was all-new...

I can't say that PS2 really turns me on that much, even in the fighting arena. I've got Dead or Alive 2: Hardcore, Guilty Gear X, Tekken Tag, and Virtua Fighter 4, but I can't say they keep me coming back enough. Granted, the Cube doesn't twitter my tweeter that much either now. I like obscure games, although I'm sure those aren't the ones that most people look for. Just adding my 2 cents from the peanut gallery...

[omnedon]

oh and they also pay out to sony, because sony makes the dvd part on the xbox
O_O

ummm.. no.

[calthaer]

I like obscure games, although I'm sure those aren't the ones that most people look for. Just adding my 2 cents from the peanut gallery...

No, thanks for chiming in. I'm not a big fan of fighting games in general (although I do love the Capcom vs. Marvel and XMen vs. Street Fighter and all those games), so I just don't follow what's on the cube. I'll generally play any game that comes highly recommended and looks like it has some redeeming value above and beyond the twitch factor.

My point was merely that, with a much larger software library, the PS2 seemingly has a greater likelihood of pleasing fans of any genre simply because there are more games of any genre made for it. Of course, I'm of the opinion that most of those games are sheer garbage, and that the gems that it might have appear as artificial glass compared with the scintillating radiance of the console games on the Gamecube.

Although, that praise being said, I think I prefer my PC even more.

[Half Japanese]

This whole thread for the most part (save a few comments towards the end and conservatively sprinkled throughout the first two pages) a game of pong where a few players bat the bullshit back and forth. As long as you're enjoying the games for whatever system...does it matter? What difference does it make if Nintendo is in 2nd place or not? Are they not still going to rehash their franchises with varying results? Debate the "industry" all you want, I'd much rather play the games.

That's not to say one should remain completely oblivious to what is going on in the "industry," but it almost seems that actual gametime takes a backseat to defending a system of choice sometimes. And a few of you need to get over yourselves in my opinion.

[Drexel923]

This whole thread for the most part (save a few comments towards the end and conservatively sprinkled throughout the first two pages) a game of pong where a few players bat the bullshit back and forth. As long as you're enjoying the games for whatever system...does it matter? What difference does it make if Nintendo is in 2nd place or not? Are they not still going to rehash their franchises with varying results? Debate the "industry" all you want, I'd much rather play the games.

That's not to say one should remain completely oblivious to what is going on in the "industry," but it almost seems that actual gametime takes a backseat to defending a system of choice sometimes. And a few of you need to get over yourselves in my opinion.

I completely agree with you, but I do also think that this is important. The way I see it Nintendo being number 2 at the end of the day helps everyone. I have always been a huge fan of Nintendo, and for the most part I have enjoyed every game they've ever made. I also like their hardware choice with the gamecube...it saved me $100 when it launched because of the no dvd. I feel that Nintendo has been an important force in this industry and I don't want to see that go.

Now onto my theory. Nintendo needs a full head of steam going into the next gen and that won't happen if they are number 3. If Nintendo stumbles into the next gen, it will be their last console IMO. Now onto Microsoft...not only have they put so much money into a pretty decent console, they don't look like they will quit because of poor sales. They have a seemingly neverending money backing that they could stick around for a while, no matter what place they are in.

The other problem is that the big wigs at Nintendo have said that the day they stop making hardware is the day they leave the business. I never used to say this before, but it wouldn't be that bad if Nintendo quit making consoles and went the Sega route. That way it would save us from having to have three consoles and we would still have the good games. But I don't know if I want to take the chance and see if Nintendo would quit all together.

All we can do now is play the games that we love and wait for the future to happen.

[Ze_ro]

As long as you're enjoying the games for whatever system...does it matter?

But... how else would other people know that us Gamecube owners made the right choice? :roll:

--Zero

[Dr. Morbis]

The other problem is that the big wigs at Nintendo have said that the day they stop making hardware is the day they leave the business. I never used to say this before, but it wouldn't be that bad if Nintendo quit making consoles and went the Sega route. That way it would save us from having to have three consoles and we would still have the good games. But I don't know if I want to take the chance and see if Nintendo would quit all together.

Nintendo threatening to stop making software if they stop making hardware is the most empty threat I've ever heard. Their holding a gun to their heads and threatening to shoot themselves!?! That's not a threat, it's just desperation.

Nintendo is a business; it's goal: $$$. The bottom line is that Nintendo will do whatever they have to do to keep the greenbacks rolling in, even if it means publishing PS3 games 5 years from now. You'll see...

[Ze_ro]

The bottom line is that Nintendo will do whatever they have to do to keep the greenbacks rolling in,

You never know... they wouldn't be the first console manufacturer to simply fold. Once the Odyssey^2 died, Magnavox disappeared from the industry. Of course, Magnavox actually had something to fall back onto... what would Nintendo do? Go back to hanafuda cards? Retreat, and become a portable-only company doing GBA stuff?

Unless they turn things around, we might find out in just a few years.

--Zero

[Parodius]

Capcom vs. SNK 2 EO

GC version = Worst. Fighting game. Ever. (Well, maybe not worse than Rise of the Robots, but still....)


Plus, first party games aren't always moneymakers. They have lavish budgets and aren't necessarily designed to make money directly, but rather to offer an experience you can't get anywhere else, as well as show off the system capabilities to potential buyers.

Shenmue, Mario 64, Gran Turismo, and Halo spring to mind.

[SegaTecToy]

The third-party games doesn't sell because most of them are junk. The ones that are good enough sell themselves: GC's Soul Calibur II - the best version, Resident Evil 0 and Viewtiful Joe (exclusives) are good examples. The GC has great exclusive games. These games make the GC a must-have console.

Personaly what I like about Nintendo is that they are a game-only company and not just some little division. What I hate about it is this kiddie image that they have that doesn't go away.

Most PS2 games are a pile of crap and the system's graphics aren't that great (the DC has better graphics) but I'll eventually buy one because there are some great games exclusive to PS2 (Just waiting a huge price drop that, sadly, will not happens soon)

Same for XBOX. It just haven't enough good reasons to make me buy it yet. I'm already too busy playing my older systems and roms. :D

[Nick Goracke]

Can't believe nobody has brought this up yet...

http://cube.ign.com/articles/463/463155p1.html
http://cube.ign.com/articles/463/463155p2.html

Quote from the interview:

"IGNcube: Okay. Now GameCube is selling for $99 and it's doing great. But is Nintendo losing money on each unit sold?

Perrin: I would say that our losses are really negligible. It's such a small amount. Plus with the amount of software that's being sold we're still definitely in a solid profit situation. We're not in the position that I know that Microsoft has been in with the loss Xbox hardware."

There you go. Nintendo is NOT making money on these consoles, according to Nintendo themselves! You be the judge on what "negligible" really means. ;)

[zmweasel]

No, I agreed to end a long since dead thread. That doesn't mean I'm not going to respond to threads of interest just because you happen to have posted in it.. even if you started your responce to that thread on the wrong foot by launching into it calling people names using the usual scapegoat keyword.

"Wrong foot"? I'm just calling out the fanboys as I see 'em, and I see a *lot* of 'em these days, alas.


Nice way to dodge the entire manufacturing overview. However, you'll find two things useful.

The overview was interesting, but, as with all your posts, painfully dense. Your run-on paragraphs are quite a chore to wade through, and it's very difficult for me to justify wading through them when I already know what the jist of them will be: "Nintendo roolz."

In any case, I didn't feel the need to "dodge" your overview because it had nothing to do with the fact that Nintendo LOSES MONEY on every GameCube sold, which some people in this thread disputed, and which has since been confirmed.

-- Z.

[digitalpress]

I have a question for those of you who so passionately defend a game company, or *gasp* a piece of hardware.

What do you personally gain from winning an argument like this? Do you have share certificates in Nintendo or Sony or Microsoft? Is it going to cause you some kind of financial woe should any of these companies fold? OR even if the entire game industry folds, for that matter?

I think some people might answer "yes" to one or more of these questions, but if you do, you're in quite a minority.

I'm pretty sure I'm somehow tied into the game industry, and yet I have absolutely no desire to get into these battles, mainly because I COULD NOT CARE LESS who "wins" the console wars. I've been around a long time, seen 'em come and seen 'em go, and ultimately all that matters is that there are good games to play. People who don't like GameCube probably don't like it because they don't own one, which is a shame because they're missing some great titles. Same goes for PS2, Xbox, and every other dead system since the beginning of time.

I just find it curious. Then again, I'm not particularly bright.

[Parodius]

Rank System Installed Base
1 GameBoy Advance 19,893,000
2 PlayStation 2 22,228,000
3 GameCube 6,862,000
4 Xbox 7,749,000
5 N-Gage 15,000

GC December: 1.160
Xbox December: 1.080

Nintendo spin indeed. The Xbox is still ahead in total numbers by about 900K systems, although the GC outsold the Xbox in 2003.

[YoshiM]

I have a question for those of you who so passionately defend a game company, or *gasp* a piece of hardware.

What do you personally gain from winning an argument like this? Do you have share certificates in Nintendo or Sony or Microsoft? Is it going to cause you some kind of financial woe should any of these companies fold? OR even if the entire game industry folds, for that matter?

I think some people might answer "yes" to one or more of these questions, but if you do, you're in quite a minority.

I'm pretty sure I'm somehow tied into the game industry, and yet I have absolutely no desire to get into these battles, mainly because I COULD NOT CARE LESS who "wins" the console wars. I've been around a long time, seen 'em come and seen 'em go, and ultimately all that matters is that there are good games to play. People who don't like GameCube probably don't like it because they don't own one, which is a shame because they're missing some great titles. Same goes for PS2, Xbox, and every other dead system since the beginning of time.

I just find it curious. Then again, I'm not particularly bright.

This is not unlike rooting for the home team. Even though a person may not have any financial ties or have any gains or losses on a team's performance they will defend it until they are blue in the face.

The best reference would be automobile brands. A person buys a Buick, lets say, and has an excellent experience with it. Buick treats them well and in that buyer's opinion it's the best brand there is. In car conversations the Buick owner will pass on their experiences to others and will speak about what makes a Buick so great. Then they meet someone else who is a Ford guy who disagrees. The Buick person thinks, "Pfft. What does the Ford guy know? I drove a Ford and it doesn't ride like my Buick." Besides who likes to be told they are *wrong*? Since the Buick brand is near and dear the Buick person defends it along with saying why Ford doesn't compare. Back and forth like a good game of Pong.

I'm sure all of us at one point in time stood behind their favorite game system at the time, especially if it was a market underdog.

[zmweasel]

I'm sure all of us at one point in time stood behind their favorite game system at the time, especially if it was a market underdog.

The Hardware Wars fascinate me from a jaded-journo/business standpoint, but it's in my best professional interest for everyone to succeed. And even as a foolish youth, I didn't have Intellivision envy or scorn 2600 owners.

Now, if you're talking about game designers and developers, I certainly have those I love and those I loathe. The talents behind the games are what matter to me, not the boxes with which I play their creations.

-- Z.

[SoulBlazer]

Both Yoshi and Zach have wondefull points (oh, and thanks to DP also for injecting some common sence in here! :) )

I'm a die hard New England sports fan (all teams) and I know it's not rational but I still do it. I think people can do that with systems and cars and women and everything else in this world as well. :)

The main reason I want to see Nintendo do better is that I'm scared to DEATH what it will mean to us gamers if Sony is allowed to keep this lock on the market.

[tynstar]

#4: The boost in sales is attributable to the price drop to $99, which means this is a Phyrric "victory" for Nintendo, since they're losing buku bucks on every system sold. The fact that none of Nintendo's triple-A GAMES was enough to spur hardware sales is a major concern.



That is the only reason for the jump. All the big games where all ready out and the sales still sucked.

If Microsoft could get EA to go online with the X-Box and get some really good RPG's that would hurt Sony. IMO!

[NoahsMyBro]

I'm split on this matter.

On the one hand, discussions like this thread appear pretty juvenile to me, and I think to myself, "who cares?". I don't see why it matters to anybody which console is second, which is first, or which sells best in Bora-Bora.

On the other hand, when I was about 11 or 12 years old, I would argue the merits of the VCS/2600 against the drawbacks to the Intellivison, and later the 5200 vs. the Colecovision, until the end of time. And while maturity seems to prevent me from thinking the same way with present day consoles, I *STILL* will almost eagerly step in to the fray regarding the 2600 and 5200. I can't explain that.

-- Steve

PS: On a side note, I absolutely hate the misuse of the phrase 'I could care less', and have more than once made posts to web message boards, Usenet threads, etc... correcting it. More times than I can count I have refrained from commenting on it, because I didn't want to be flamed as a grammar nazi. It was heartwarming to see somebody else complain about it !

[Ed Oscuro]

Both Yoshi and Zach have wondefull points (oh, and thanks to DP also for injecting some common sence in here! :) )

Yes, second that! It's almost like having my own subscription to an insider gaming mag at times :)

Now there's a point Ze_ro raised about Nintendo folding instead of going to cards. I have two simple points which I think will answer this question.

1.) Magnavox had a stunning library of...well...what did they have? The Time Lord? Some Rings? Eh? Magnavox left no legacy behind. People don't care about the brand name, they care about the games and (perhaps even more importantly) the characters that inhabit these games.

Now SNK, on the other hand, completely died as a company, but even a company like our "friends," Azure, knew enough to grab that IP. Everybody knows Mai, Terry, and Haohmaru; they might not know his name, but Duck King undoubtedly has more fans than any of the simplistic Quest for the Rings characters do (and probably all of the pre-NES D&D type fighter characters, too, especially after that crazy Flash based movie accompanied by Konami's DDR track "Hot Limit" made the rounds a while back).

It's always possible that Nintendo would sell off its characters, but things would have to be very bad indeed for Nintendo to do that. Money from licensing products is the easiest money maker you're going to see.

2.) Nintendo is a public company. If the current workers don't have it in them to stop releasing crap hardware when/if that time comes, they'll be relieved of their positions (more likely resign). Easy. It would be a dark day when that happened as we'd lose the arguably brightest, most charismatic player in the console wars, but it'd be better than losing everything.

[zmweasel]

Plus, first party games aren't always moneymakers. They have lavish budgets and aren't necessarily designed to make money directly, but rather to offer an experience you can't get anywhere else, as well as show off the system capabilities to potential buyers.

Shenmue, Mario 64, Gran Turismo, and Halo spring to mind.

All of your examples except Shenmue have sold millions of copies and made enormous piles of money, deep enough that you can swim around in them Scrooge McDuck-style. First-party games generally have lavish budgets, and first-party launch titles are generally intended as hardware showcases, but the primary goal is, as always, to make buku* bucks.

-- Z.

* Intentionally misspelled to get calthaer's goat.

[digitalpress]

This is not unlike rooting for the home team. Even though a person may not have any financial ties or have any gains or losses on a team's performance they will defend it until they are blue in the face.

The sports analogy is an interesting one but I disagree with it.

In sports, you pick a single team per sport because it doesn't make sense to root for two of them.

With video game consoles, you can have more than one. Most of us here are proof of that.

Your favorite team in sports is generally your team for life.

With video game consoles, "life" is about four years. You have to make new choices as the years go by. Atari and Sega fans know this.

In sports, your team is comprised of people who are only on your team.

With video game consoles, the majority of games are on the other consoles too. You have to root for the players who play on "all teams" when you root for your own.

I have a favorite team in every sport, and I would even go so far as to say that I have a favorite system for every era, and a favorite game one every system. That doesn't make me want to make other game systems look bad or good, because in the end, it really doesn't have any effect on what I will PLAY.

[hezeuschrist]

Well joe, you said it yourself. It's a shame that so many people are passing on the cube because there are a load of great games for it. That's why I back Nintendo in the case, because it's a shame to see so many people miss so many great games. We all do well if all the hardware developers do well, and in an even market bloody console war, most of the people get to play most of the games for most of the systems. Game Justice is Served.

Plus, ignorance is an absolute atrocity. When people start pulling out just assanine 'facts' and just broadcast their stupidity, they deserve to be put in their place. Not to say that this thread has been an offender, but in the console wars the fanboy's are likely to be way off base and the most in need of placement. Don't get me wrong, I've been guilty of this, multiple times. In no way do I exclude myself from fanboyism.

Why not just live an let live? I couldn't tell you. I'm absolutely appauled by ignorance, and tend to be a very quiet person for fear of being incorrect. I have dictionary.com on my link bar. It's just the way I am.

[Ed Oscuro]

Why not just live an let live? I couldn't tell you. I'm absolutely appauled by ignorance, and tend to be a very quiet person for fear of being incorrect. I have dictionary.com on my link bar. It's just the way I am.

Well, I've noticed my so-called "mean streak" (I think you said it perfectly, appalled by ignorance) coming back in the last week. I'm getting tired of seeing folks spinning up arguments that could be textbook examples of a logical fallacy, and the fanboy stuff really isn't necessary, either. I can't believe that all the people who are really into this Nintendo fanboy stuff have Mario bedsheets...all the same I think they feel that their childhood is under attack, and that's sad.

[NvrMore]

Sorry I'm a tad late to this one but I wanted to throw something in here


I have a question for those of you who so passionately defend a game company, or *gasp* a piece of hardware.


Let me flip that one around. Instead of looking at the effect why not look at the cause for a moment. I see you questioning the "need to defend" a lot, notably in a past few threads, but I never really see you questioning the need to attack?.

Let's take this thread for example, it was started as just a somewhat enthusiastic post about a change, or percieved change in the status of something which someone is interested in, t could have been addressed with "hey, those figures are from N, they're not exactly independant, I'd wait for some 3rd party figures", yet people immediately jumped it a started attacking/condemning/critisizing some of which immediatly starting off with the typical name calling ("fanboy" - scapegoat keyword).

Now, which is more unnatural or sad, defending something you like when someone rips into it at any excuse, or looking for any opportunity to rip into a game company and calling those who don't or refute such names at the drop of a hat.

Cause and effect.

To answer your question, from a financial or gaming point of view I should probably join in the bashing/have no ties respectivly. However, if people are going to use any excuse to rip into something needlessly then you can't really question others taking the counter side of an argument.

[NvrMore]

"Wrong foot"? I'm just calling out the fanboys as I see 'em, and I see a *lot* of 'em these days, alas.

No, you just seek to bash, and as such label people who don't agree with it and your decidedly skewed rants in an effort to dismiss that which contradicts and impedes your bashing.


The overview was interesting, but, as with all your posts, painfully dense. Your run-on paragraphs are quite a chore to wade through, and it's very difficult for me to justify wading through them when I already know what the jist of them will be: "Nintendo roolz."

Well at least a giant run-on paragraph goes some way to discussing and explaining a viewpoint and reasoning within an argument as opposed to throwing out petty name-calling and poorly contrived bashes guised with little or no support (other than selective quotes and mis-quotes) and no real thought behind them other than "he says/she says/Sony says so it is so".

You don't like large bodies of text so I'll keep it short.. your "arguments" are as crooked as a $6 bill.