The Trouble With AtariAge (drama alert)

[digitalpress]

It's unfortunate that people in this community can't work together.

I tried, but instead of making progress a can of worms is open and then locked before I can reply. I'm replying anyway.

Starts here.
http://www.atariage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=55201


Some of the games released at CGE have been SOLD to offset our costs for running the Expo. Even so, the games eventually get dumped and released to the public, if not by us, then by mysterious strangers like "Pizza Boy". I'm pretty sure some of our past releases are available for free in a thread on these very forums, in fact.


Just for the record, you guys have not released any of the 2600 games you have SOLD at CGE 2001, 2002, or 2003. We released the binary to Elevator Action after CGE in 2001, but we were on better terms with you guys then and you didn't seem to mind that. However, last year when the three 2002 CGE releases were posted to our forum (eight months after your show), you guys immediately demanded that they be pulled down, even though you have no legal copyright claims to any of the games (although you like to make people feel otherwise) and already had ample time to profit handsomely from sales of the games.

We would have gladly released the 2002 games before the 2003 show. Someone else decided to be sneaky and dump the games and post them on the AtariAge website instead. I asked that they be removed, and was ignored.


Shortly after that, someone on your team retaliated by posting the ROM to "Revenge of the Apes" over on DP, a game which we started selling just a month before at PhillyClassic 4. This hurt Thomas Jentzsch, Paul Slocum, and Marc Oberhauser, people who have made many contributions to the hobby and worked hard to improve the original prototype and create a nice, boxed version of the game. Additionally, there was a threat that this same person would release the "Pleiades" and "Funky Fish" ROMs, which was a very obvious jab at us, and an empty threat, since we knew no one else had the ROM images for those games. Let's also not forget how Sean Kelly became enraged when someone posted the ROMs to the Atarisoft ColecoVision repro carts on another forum after they were sold at CGE one year.

That was unfortunate and you might have noted that I did lock the thread as soon as I was informed of it. In fact, I deleted it upon request of Thomas Jentzsch. It is a cardinal rule around here not to delete posts, so it was very much against the grain here to do so. And yet... my request was never answered. Our games were NEVER deleted at AtariAge.


Only now when you're being called to task publicly about these ROMs are you suddenly willing to honor Matt's "request". I'll save you the trouble regarding the 2003 ROMs, they are attached to this message. Matt is correct in his observation that if there's a profit to be had from selling a prototype, you will hold it hostage indefinitely. I'm also tired of you trying to make Matt out to be the bad person here. If you want to do that go do it in your own forum as you have done in the past.

"Called to task"? You must be joking. Someone posts "digitpress" on your forums and I get a barrage of links pointing to it. All I did was explain the side of the story from the "ROM HOARDERS" perspective. Instead, I get the usual "CGE IS BAD" post from your boy Tempest.

"Make Matt out to be the bad person?" Please, Albert. Open your eyes. This is the guy that tried to scare everyone just before last year's CGE with his "something SINISTER is going to happen!" posts in the CGE thread. Then he actually SHOWS UP to CGE and proceeds to harrass our guests from outside the concourse on the Friday night gathering to honor their achievements! You might want to take a peek at his past here. He's got a problem with Scott Stilphen and decides to take it out on the entire community? Was I supposed to just let that go?

I've tried working with you, Albert. You're clearly bent on marching to the beat of your own drummer. Lock my posts, webmaster. But any sensible person who can still read them (assuming they have not already been deleted) can make their own judgements.

[MarioAllStar2600]

Wasn't Albert the jerk who made pitfall amy go with stan after Philly so he could carry his games home? Then banned them both from the board since they kicked it off so good? Well although tehre are always 2 sides to a story I doubt this is your fault Joe. You are a great guy. It's terrible that in such a small community there needs to be enemys. *sighs*

[MarioAllStar2600]

Unfortunately yes. You ONLY had to wait 5 months! That's a quick turn around time for him. He'll gladly sit on your money for longer than that without letting you know what's up with your order. Don't bother posting on DP about it. It's run by his butt-buddy and populated with pathetic SK sycophants. REMEMBER: he does sooo much for the "community" and he does it all as a favor to you He'll be the first to remind you.

That was posted by Zaxxon on the 24 of last month speaking of Sean Kelly. That board is very poorly moderated. I know over here you guys would never let people say stuff like that. I am not trying to stir up trouble. Just backing up more evidence of what Joe has said. I know I am on a different topic. :P

[Captain Wrong]

The sence of entitlement in this hobby sickens me.

I just want to know, and maybe someone can answer this for me, why some people think it's their god given right to have a ROM of everything out there? I don't care if it's DP, AA, or whoever, people share their ROMS as they see fit, not because they have too. I'll admit, I'm like everyone else as I enjoy playing a title long rumoured to exists and recently found, but I also respect the decision of ANYONE to keep it close to the vest if they wish.

And it's not like we're talking about something someone is keeping locked in a vault and never letting out. If you really want to play the game either make it to the convo and buy a cart or make arrangements with someone going to pick one up for you. It's not like the game is completely unavaliable, and isn't it nicer to have it on a real cart anyway?

If it really means that much to you, get out there and buy some protos of your own. Then you can do whatever the hell you want with them, just like everyone else who owns one gets to do.

Sorry. Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't see where it's anyone's obligation to release ROMS of anything. If they do, it's nice and I think everyone appreciates it, but I don't see where people get off bagging on someone who put up the money for something and then won't give it to the world for free.

[bjk7382]

If it really means that much to you, get out there and buy some protos of your own. Then you can do whatever the hell you want with them, just like everyone else who owns one gets to do.

But just because you own a prototype doesn't give you copyrights to it. If the roms are leaked, the proto owner shouldn't get all bent out of shape. And someone that just buys protos to profit from them and not help the comunity by releasing it to everyone shouldn't own them in the first place, IMO.

[digitalpress]

If it really means that much to you, get out there and buy some protos of your own. Then you can do whatever the hell you want with them, just like everyone else who owns one gets to do.

But just because you own a prototype doesn't give you copyrights to it. If the roms are leaked, the proto owner shouldn't get all bent out of shape. And someone that just buys protos to profit from them and not help the comunity by releasing it to everyone shouldn't own them in the first place, IMO.

That's an interesting opiinion. Would you care to elaborate?

I'm pretty sure you read the thread at AtariAge, so you know it wasn't to profit - the "profit" on the game sales go right into the red area of making CGE happen.

Now, while some may consider "releasing a ROM" an upstanding community action, others may consider "gathering the communty" as an upstanding community action instead - and use the material things to make that happen.

Please clarify.

[Queen Of The Felines]

It was also a real shame that the folks running the Midwest Classic got bullied by AA into dropping DP as a sponsor.

Oh that reminds me Joe, I have to reschedule my required ass-kissing appointment to next Tuesday instead of tomorrow. :P

Kristine

[bjk7382]

...the "profit" on the game sales go right into the red area of making CGE happen.

Yeah, but from what I have read the roms werent released after the shows, and all the "profit" has already been made off of the carts. (I am not sure if you still sell the cartriges after the shows or not, but if you don't, why not release the roms right after the show instaid of waiting for someone to "leak" them)

I just keep thinking about the Pink Panther rom that has gone unreleased and unseen for so many years now (I know you aren't the one that has that one, I am just using that as an example). I think it is just a common courtesy to the comunity if you aren't selling the carts, to release the rom.

[sku_u]

I don't think there'd be any problems, or at least they wouldn't be as obvious, if you made your games available for purchase after CGE as a standard run in cart from, as has been done with a couple of homebrews through developers and other sites in the past.

Not everyone has $$$ to fly across the country to attend a gaming con and while announcing CGE only exclusives will stir up interest, it also stirs up controversy and resentment amongst some members of the classic gaming community.

Yes, I know overstock has been made available for purchase through the CGE website, but that is only overstock and once it's gone, it's gone and I also know that given the internal architecture of certain games like Elevator Action that this isn't always possible.

[Captain Wrong]

But just because you own a prototype doesn't give you copyrights to it. If the roms are leaked, the proto owner shouldn't get all bent out of shape. And someone that just buys protos to profit from them and not help the comunity by releasing it to everyone shouldn't own them in the first place, IMO.

If you want to get into the copyright issue, technically no one other than the original companies should be releasing ROMS in the first place. But that's an entirely different can of worms altogether. :)

Ignoring that, I do think that in this instance if someone is paying top dollar for something that is one of a kind, it should be their perogative to do with it what they want. If you paid $1000 for something that a week later you could have for free, you'd be kind of miffed, wouldn't you? I know some people will insist releasing a ROM does nothing to the value of a proto (and frankly I don't know if it does or not, nor do I care to debate it) but if the owner of the proto fees it does, that's his right to not release it and not have someone else do it behind his back.

As for the profit thing, what if the situation is a person bought a prototype and is using the release of the games to finance something else that benefits the community and then agrees to release the ROMS? This is kind of what seems like is going on here and it just feels like people get impatient because they have to wait or indignant because they have to pay and don't see the whole picture. It's not like anyone is saying you can only buy this. It's out there. People just seem to be upset that it wasn't on thier time schedule.

Good discussion though. For someone who has nothing in this, this topic has me thinking. :D

[Blackjax]

Sigh. Not again.

This is what it always seems to boil down to in the end Captain Wrong, and believe me, I've been in the middle. This is probably the easiest way to explain it.

Take two prototype owners: Call em Billy and Jimmy for all you Double Dragon fans.

Billy buys an unreleased prototype, pays his money, and keeps it for himself. One side of the argument claims he's hoarding for not releasing the ROM, and the other says he can do whatever he wants with it because he paid for it. Arguing ensues.

Jimmy buys an unreleased prototype, pays his money, and sells reproductions publically. A repro is purchased, and the owner of the repro dumps the ROM and releases it. Ken claims the he bought the prototype and it is up to him when and if the ROM is distributed. One side calls for the head of the releaser of the ROM, claiming the buyer of the repro had no right to dump it, and the other side of the argument says the repro buyer can do whatever he wants with it because he paid for it. Arguing ensues.

The fights on either side always degrade into shouting matches, each side calling the other greedy in various ways.

Personal opinion: once you've sold copies of the cart, you now no longer have sole control over the ROM and can't complain when it appears on the net.

However, I think this particular episode is solely based on several years of CGE games that it was stated they would be made available as ROMs, and never were.

[Mr.FoodMonster]

I was just going to ask in a separate thread why it seemed like its a 'AA vs. DP world' and I guess this is partially an answer. The amount of bickering between the two forums really should end. I guess its a good thing that I have yet to attend a Con of any kind, because from the sound of it, the whole thing is just a big gossip party.
Back on topic, I personally feel that whenever a Proto is discovered that it should be released to the general gaming community as a ROM, after a certain point. I can understand if someone wants to make a box/booklet and make a bunch of new carts, thats to be expected. What I dont like is the hoarding. I am NOT accusing anyone of any hoarding, but the idea of it is just plain stupid. "I got it and nobody else can! MUhahahahah" its just rediculous. Just because you found it, logically you shouldn't keep it away from everyone, no matter how much you paid.
The fighting between the boards seems to be way to childish to actually be happening. I guess that some people just really take to heart what Joe Somebody said to them over the internet.

[omnedon]

Personal opinion: once you've sold copies of the cart, you now no longer have sole control over the ROM and can't complain when it appears on the net.


Reality. Anything else is tilting at windmills.

[Captain Wrong]

Just because you found it, logically you shouldn't keep it away from everyone, no matter how much you paid.

Why?

[CX2K]

Oh, the stories I could tell! And will, now that I can post about these things. Unfortunately I was banned from AA a few days ago for trying to respond to a question from a fellow AA member. No warning, just delete my posts and ban me because I dared to provide information that Alex, Albert, and others didn't see fit for their members to know. The censorship over there kills me. AA = All the news Alex and Albert will allow you to see!

It's no wonder it seems like everyone there is Anti-DP as they do nothing to curb that sentiment and instead make subtle comments that help foster this "rivalry".

And before we get too far along in this thread, I'll remind everyone that this goes far beyond just the question of roms as you can see from Queen of Feline's post above.

I'll be back with some tales of wonder shortly. I have to go dig out all the emails, messages, etc I've saved over the years.

John

[christianscott27]

The fighting between the boards seems to be way to childish to actually be happening. I guess that some people just really take to heart what Joe Somebody said to them over the internet.


sad but true man!

my wife often hops on the computer when i've left some of my AA or DP postings up. the other day she looked over and said "so you guys go on these boards to talk to other people who love old games?"

"yeah"

"then you argue about things that nothing to do with old games?"

"uh, yeah"

"ohhh"


well actually this thread does involve "old games" but still.

[RCM]

I don't like AA one bit. Ive met some of the AA guys and they seem to be pricks. Just my impression. Don't ask me to name anyone b/c i dont remember who i met. I think DP and AA should have a street fight. We would win b/c I have many impressive ninja skills.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

[sku_u]

I don't like AA one bit. Ive met some of the AA guys and they seem to be pricks. Just my impression. Don't ask me to name anyone b/c i dont remember who i met. I think DP and AA should have a street fight. We would win b/c I have many impressive ninja skills.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

:lol:

Then what of the people who post to both boards equally?

[Blackjax]

I dunno, personally I like both sites.

I just don't post much at Atari Age anymore because after several years I seem to have exausted anything I have to say that's atari-related LOL

[RCM]

:lol:

Then what of the people who post to both boards equally?

We will have to cut out whatever parts of them that like AA. I will take pleasure in this.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

[digitalpress]

I don't like AA one bit. Ive met some of the AA guys and they seem to be pricks. Just my impression. Don't ask me to name anyone b/c i dont remember who i met. I think DP and AA should have a street fight. We would win b/c I have many impressive ninja skills.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

Easy there, RCM!

I have nothing against the AA community. I would be an AA poster if I were allowed to voice an opinion now and again. As long as you stay within their own personal beliefs and help their business along, their won't be any trouble. CGE and DP guys have a problem because we are "competition". We don't make any money, we don't do it for a living, but for some reason we're perceived as a threat. And that makes us very unwelcome members of a community that we've been part of for way longer than they've even existed.

To think that all of these years I actually held out hope that we could work together. Ah, the tales I have of attempting to do that ... what a waste.

[bjk7382]

I don't like AA one bit. Ive met some of the AA guys and they seem to be pricks. Just my impression. Don't ask me to name anyone b/c i dont remember who i met. I think DP and AA should have a street fight. We would win b/c I have many impressive ninja skills.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

Where's the http://www.atariage.com/forums/templates/subSilver/images/lang_english/icon_ignore.gif button!?!?! :evil:

[digitalpress]

Where's the http://www.atariage.com/forums/templates/subSilver/images/lang_english/icon_ignore.gif button!?!?! :evil:

Sorry... we kinda believe in the right of everyone to be heard.

Please answer my question, above. Thanks!

[bjk7382]

Please answer my question, above. Thanks!

I did. I said what I wanted, and I think sku_u also followed up nicely. :)

[digitalpress]

...the "profit" on the game sales go right into the red area of making CGE happen.

Yeah, but from what I have read the roms werent released after the shows, and all the "profit" has already been made off of the carts. (I am not sure if you still sell the cartriges after the shows or not, but if you don't, why not release the roms right after the show instaid of waiting for someone to "leak" them)

Put yourself in our shoes for a moment.

Our show costs a tremendous amount of money to host. It's not run out of a hall or a hotel room, it's a lot of floorspace. We also have an enormous amount of transport charges, ancillary charges (like security, insurance, programs, the dinner we host for our guests, etc).

Those game sales have gone toward eliminating the debt we incur each year. We're lucky enough to have great sponsors, exhibitors, and the attendance to nearly equalize that but despite what you may have heard - we LOSE money every year. It's OK because we love what we do, and honestly being privvy to abandoneware is a real kick to us. The show's success motivates us.

After the show, still in debt, we put the games on the CGE website for sale. We don't make a lot of sales after the show, but every game sold is X$ towards breaking even.

Now. In those shoes, would you just "release the ROM"? Do you not feel that getting everyone together for a massive event like this is "community service" enough? Really, it's OK that the ROMs get released. But if you were in these shoes, PAYING to make it all happen, would you give it away so easily?

I'm sorry if I don't see it your way. Things are a little different this year because we've gotten tremendous sponsorship thanks to the move to San Jose. The games we have on display this year are NOT for sale, and if the show goes as well as we expect, those games will most certainly be released to the public for free.

My point is, we're not "profiting". We're just trying to cut our losses.

[The Collector]

It was also a real shame that the folks running the Midwest Classic got bullied by AA into dropping DP as a sponsor.

Oh that reminds me Joe, I have to reschedule my required ass-kissing appointment to next Tuesday instead of tomorrow. :P

Kristine

WTF?? Why was the MGC "bullied" into dropping the DP sponsor. And not to sound like a tough guy, but i sure hope for ANYONES sakes, it wasn't actual physical bullying. Or the proverbial shit is gonna hit the fan in the midwest :devilish: .


~bill


*PMs GoatDan*

[RCM]

Digitalpress wrote:

Easy there, RCM!

I have nothing against the AA community. I would be an AA poster if I were allowed to voice an opinion now and again. As long as you stay within their own personal beliefs and help their business along, their won't be any trouble. CGE and DP guys have a problem because we are "competition". We don't make any money, we don't do it for a living, but for some reason we're perceived as a threat. And that makes us very unwelcome members of a community that we've been part of for way longer than they've even existed.

To think that all of these years I actually held out hope that we could work together. Ah, the tales I have of attempting to do that ... what a waste.

The only competition should be while playing games. True gamers should stick together! The way some of the AA guys are acting is intolerable. And for the record, the street fight thing was a joke! jeez.

bjk7382 wrote:

Where's the ignore button!?!?!

The best way to ignore me is not to post anything about ignoring me. Now I am going to make it my mission to be your best friend! Ok, maybe I won't.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

[digitalpress]

It was also a real shame that the folks running the Midwest Classic got bullied by AA into dropping DP as a sponsor.

Oh that reminds me Joe, I have to reschedule my required ass-kissing appointment to next Tuesday instead of tomorrow. :P

Kristine

WTF?? Why was the MGC "bullied" into dropping the DP sponsor. And not to sound like a tough guy, but i sure hope for ANYONES sakes, it wasn't actual physical bullying. Or the proverbial shit is gonna hit the fan in the midwest :devilish: .


~bill


*PMs GoatDan*

That information was only given to the people who specifically asked why we were removed as sponsors from the event. I am not at liberty to share this because I truly wanted MWC to succeed (as I believe it did), and still stand behind their show wholeheartedly.

[Kid Ice]

I, for one, think it’s a healthy thing to get these issues out in the open.

A little story about my experiences on the Atari Age forums. For starters, I like Atari Age. It’s an extremely knowledgeable community of real classic gamers. I don’t have an account there and I don’t post there, but I check out what’s being discussed at least weekly.

Something that bothered me for a while was, what I perceived at the time, an anti-DP attitude. This bothered me for a number of reasons. For starters, I happen to know a number of DP people and consider some of them my friends. Also, I am what you might call a “fan”, or even a “fanboy”, of the DP. I like the guides, the forums, the style, etc., and always have from day one, before there was such a thing as Atari Age. Additionally, my feeling is that DP has done a lot for the classic gaming community at large, especially the leadership of Joe Santulli, John Hardie, and Sean Kelly.

So, biased as I may be, the comments concerning DP on the AA site used to piss me off royally, and further agitated by the fact that (a) the AA posters would not cite their specific grievances, but would instead hurl insults at the DP community at large and (b) Joe would not allow retaliation on the DP site, for whatever reason; for the community at large, or to not exacerbate the problem, or because it was BS anyway…whatever.

My feelings change for two reasons. First, because of growing experience with the AA forums, I realized that there is not really an anti-DP bias there. There are certain individuals on the site who have it in for DP. If you visit AA on a regular basis you know who they are. But at the same time there are just as many individuals who will come to the defense of DP, and the majority of the population there could not care less.

The second reason is that, at some point, I can’t remember the exact time that this took place, within a single AA thread, those individuals got specific about their grievances. I’m not saying that I agree with them, or even that their grievances are valid. But they put it out there, and on some level I understood. Previously I had perceived the anti-DP stuff as PURE JEALOUSY, but now I simply view it as a feud in the classic gaming family.

An unfortunate side effect of this “family feud” is the division of classic gaming events. This is not David Lee Roth versus Sammy Hagar, this is David Lee Roth versus Eddie Van Halen…I want them both in the same show, and a show missing one or the other is damaged goods.

When this “Meltdown” (hee hee) started, I was back and forth on both forums with great amusement. At least for a day it seemed like friendly competition, but then it opened the whole ownership can of words. (honestly, I meant to type “can of worms”…)

I almost want to believe that whoever purchases the prototype can do whatever he/she wants to, but that’s not the case. Suppose someone gets hold of a prototype (I’ll use a fanciful one like 5200 Maze Craze) that’s one of a kind, and smashed it to pieces with a hammer. Is that alright? No! There has to be, at least some sliver of, a chance that the fans will get to play it someday. If you want to hoard it, fine, but don’t hoard it forever. If you want to release the ROM, great! If you want to release the ROM and sell it on a cart, fine! If you want to put it on a cart, sell a bunch of ‘em at a reasonable price, and release the ROM in 2-10 years, cool!

So let the owner decide. Easy. Right? Who would’ve thought 15 years ago that there would be even a remote chance that you could play Wings on a 2600? Who would’ve thought someone would just buy Comma Vid and start selling their games? Who would’ve thought that someone would just send you these great unreleased games on your computer, for nothing? Aren’t these all cool things?

[o2william]

I'm backing up to address an earlier point by Captain Wrong, because I know he doesn't wanna be ignored!

@Captain Wrong: You're answering you're own question.


Sorry. Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't see where it's anyone's obligation to release ROMS of anything.

I agree. Reasonably, this is a tough point to argue (not everyone is reasonable about the issue of course, but whaddya gonna do?)


If they do (release ROMs), it's nice and I think everyone appreciates it

Also agreed. If you freely release a proto, you're nice and appreciated.

Now, take the converse of that statement. If you DON'T freely release a ROM, you're NOT nice, and you're UNappreciated. It may not be a fair assessment, since you can't reasonably be considered to be "obligated" to release anything, but it forces people to question your motives. If you don't release a ROM, then you seem to be either A) a profiteer, or B) a hoarder. Those are labels, I admit -- they're inflamatory, but not totally inaccurate either. Now it may be your right to hoard (though legally, not to profiteer), but it won't do your rep any good.


I don't see where people get off bagging on someone who put up the money for something and then won't give it to the world for free.

I say it's the history of protos. After the emulation movement took off, the first action of many in the community was to freely release ROMs. Part of this was altruism, and part was that people didn't have the know-how/venue/guts to try to make money off of repros. If you can't make $$$ from a proto, why not share it through emulation? For better or worse, protos have a acquired a "They can't be owned by anyone; they must be owned by everyone" reputation.

Things have changed with the advent of professional-quality repros, well-organized web sites like DP and AA, and big expos like CGE. It was fairly standard practice to release ROMs before all that. So now, you've got people who feel jilted when ROMs don't get released. They may not really feel "entitled," as you put it, but they may think that anybody who owns a proto and doesn't release it is just being greedy. (And it doesn't matter WHY you want the money for the perception of greediness to stick, because there's always somebody to point to and say, "He released HIS proto! Why can't you be not greedy like him?")

So you've got a de facto obligation in that if you don't release ROMs, you look bad. That's not the same as entitlement, but it causes the same reaction in people.

[orrimarrko]

I'm not about to take sides here, because it's pointless.

I'm a fan of both sites, as they have great pros, and not too many cons.

However, what's behind this entire discussion has nothing to do with ROMS or dumping ROMS, or selling repros.

There is a long history between a few people, and it's all personal.

Anything else is just coincidental.

Sorry, but it's true.

Not being involved with any of the direct causes of the conflict (that has seemingly reached a boiling point), I don't feel that I have any right to comment on it.

I will say one thing however regarding the ROM issue. Unless you physically OWN the rights to a game, finished or not, it is NOT yours.

Owning a prototype simply means you own something that someone didn't care enough to keep, or keep track of. You can use it, but not profit off of it. This is the EXACT reason that eBay cancels prototype auctions - it's a legal issue.

If, however, you contact the developer and purchase the rights, or otherwise obtain legal ownership to the rights, then you can do what you like.

Otherwise, you have no legal right to the ROM or the game, and it's public domain. PERIOD.

If you are dumb enough to purchase a prototype and assume that it's the only one, and that you have some legal right to the information contained on the ROM, I feel for you.

As for DP selling repros or whatever to help fray the cost of the CGE events - more power to them. They're not doing anything wrong.

My opinions - say what you like.

Steve

[goatdan]

First off, thanks to the Collector for alerting me to this...

Secondly, I have nothing against anyone from anywhere. And I really try to make that clear with all of my dealings. I'm sure that everyone here isn't an angel, I'm sure that everyone on AtariAge aren't angels and I sure as hell ain't. That having been said, I feel as if I need to clear this up a bit...


It was also a real shame that the folks running the Midwest Classic got bullied by AA into dropping DP as a sponsor.

Actually, both AtariAge and Digital Press had been signed on as sponsors of the show for three months together and at no time did anyone from AtariAge demand the removal of Digital Press as a sponsor. The people that need to know about the whole thing already do, and I'd rather not breech this topic again as I literally spent a week of sleepless nights trying to decide what to do. The final decision was made from everyone's input, and it was more or less a matter of other people's principals that I got stuck in the middle of. The decision that ended up happening was made purely on a business-basis, and was not a case of anyone "winning" above anyone else, no matter how it may be perceived.

Hope that clears it up. I consider people on both this board and AtariAge to be my friends, and all of this stupid in-fighting doesn't benefit anyone. I wish we could just put an end to it all.

[sku_u]

...the "profit" on the game sales go right into the red area of making CGE happen.

Yeah, but from what I have read the roms werent released after the shows, and all the "profit" has already been made off of the carts. (I am not sure if you still sell the cartriges after the shows or not, but if you don't, why not release the roms right after the show instaid of waiting for someone to "leak" them)

Put yourself in our shoes for a moment.

Our show costs a tremendous amount of money to host. It's not run out of a hall or a hotel room, it's a lot of floorspace. We also have an enormous amount of transport charges, ancillary charges (like security, insurance, programs, the dinner we host for our guests, etc).

Those game sales have gone toward eliminating the debt we incur each year. We're lucky enough to have great sponsors, exhibitors, and the attendance to nearly equalize that but despite what you may have heard - we LOSE money every year. It's OK because we love what we do, and honestly being privvy to abandoneware is a real kick to us. The show's success motivates us.

After the show, still in debt, we put the games on the CGE website for sale. We don't make a lot of sales after the show, but every game sold is X$ towards breaking even.

Now. In those shoes, would you just "release the ROM"? Do you not feel that getting everyone together for a massive event like this is "community service" enough? Really, it's OK that the ROMs get released. But if you were in these shoes, PAYING to make it all happen, would you give it away so easily?

I'm sorry if I don't see it your way. Things are a little different this year because we've gotten tremendous sponsorship thanks to the move to San Jose. The games we have on display this year are NOT for sale, and if the show goes as well as we expect, those games will most certainly be released to the public for free.

My point is, we're not "profiting". We're just trying to cut our losses.

Okay, then put yourself into the shoes of a casual gamer for a moment. Rumors start flying about an unreleased prototype being unearthed, let's use Ladybug for the VCS as an example as many people believe this one exists in some form somewhere. Ladybug happens to be one of your favorite games of all time and you can't wait to try out this newly found game on a real system. Then you hear that the only way you'll get to see or play the game is by attending a gaming convention that is 2000 miles away. You'd love to go but know for a fact that you'll never get the money together in time to make it out there. How would you feel?

I understand why you want to hold back the BIN for this cart, but I don't see why you have to make the games CGE exclusives. I'm both a collector and a gamer, and like having limited edition items as much as the next guy, but it's also nice to see standard, more affordable, more accessible releases and don't see why something like selling copies of the cart only for $25-30 a pop couldn't be done? It would generate even more $ towards your expenses and make most people happy.

[Kid Ice]

let me just add...does anyone else get the feeling the 2600 version of Meltdown is probably a complete piece of garbage? Funny, in a way.

[digitalpress]

Okay, then put yourself into the shoes of a casual gamer for a moment. Rumors start flying about an unreleased prototype being unearthed, let's use Ladybug for the VCS as an example as many people believe this one exists in some form somewhere. Ladybug happens to be one of your favorite games of all time and you can't wait to try out this newly found game on a real system. Then you hear that the only way you'll get to see or play the game is by attending a gaming convention that is 2000 miles away. You'd love to go but know for a fact that you'll never get the money together in time to make it out there. How would you feel?


I understand why you want to hold back the BIN for this cart, but I don't see why you have to make the games CGE exclusives. I'm both a collector and a gamer, and like having limited edition items as much as the next guy, but it's also nice to see standard, more affordable, more accessible releases and don't see why something like selling copies of the cart only for $25-30 a pop couldn't be done? It would generate even more $ towards your expenses and make most people happy.

Wow, that's really easy. I'd go to the Expo and support the hobby.

Now let me alter the scenario a bit and say that I personally couldn't afford to go to the Expo. In that case, I'd look at it this way: THEY can't afford to give away their goods and do an Expo every year, and I can't afford to buy their exclusive game. It's a wash.

I should mention however, that these "exclusives" have been available on the CGE site after the show for the past three years at least. So 200i0 miles away or not, it's still just a click away.

[sku_u]

Now let me alter the scenario a bit and say that I personally couldn't afford to go to the Expo. In that case, I'd look at it this way: THEY can't afford to give away their goods and do an Expo every year, and I can't afford to buy their exclusive game. It's a wash.

I never said anyone should GIVE their stuff away. I suggested doing an exclusive THEN doing a cheaper run BEFORE releasing any ROM to maximize the return and minimize the losses.

[TheRedEye]

Subscribed in anticipation of Hardie's stories.

Oh wait, can't subscribe here.

...bookmarked, in anticipation of Hardie's stories.

[digitalpress]

I never said anyone should GIVE their stuff away. I suggested doing an exclusive THEN doing a cheaper run BEFORE releasing any ROM to maximize the return and minimize the losses.

But that's exactly what we've done, sku_u!

Like I said, the CGE site has always had the games for sale after the show. The only reason it's not up there now is because we're hawking 2004, but if you want the games, they're still available, and at a better price than they were at last years' show.

[goatdan]

_Now that I've actually read the rest of the post, I'll quickly weigh in on the ROM issue...

Basically, in my opinion exclusives are stupid if it is for something that you will never be able to see or play in any other way. For instance, if a game - let's say Ladybug like someone mentioned - is released with a production run of 50 and the only way to get one is to go to a certain show, I think that is extremely stupid. No matter how much I would like to, my current job and money situation don't get me out to many shows other than the MGC (duh ;) ). So my option is to wait for someone to purchase it at the show and then find it on eBay for TONS more after the show? That sucks!

That isn't the issue here. The issue here seems to be about games that were prototypes that were released. Well, the ball bounces both ways in these situations. Both AA and DP have held proto games and released them to make money (whether to help pay for an event or for personal gain or whatever is a moot point). Both have been angry when the ROMs were dumped and arrived on the net for free downloads. Personally, like someone else mentioned because it is a prototype, I don't feel it is okay for someone to make money off someone else's work.

On the other hand, when you purchase a new 2600 game you aren't just getting the game becasue of the game itself, but also for the high-quality packaging that it comes in and for the ability to play it on your actual system. For this, the 2600 is unique and I think that the for-sale release of prototypes is a lot more "excusable" than for newer systems like the Jaguar and whatnot. It is the same way with hacks as a matter of fact.

All of the newly produced 2600 games that I have purchased in the past five or six years have been homebrew titles because I tend to find them more fun and more creative. All of the games that I have purchased I was able to find as ROM images before and after I purchased them. I own a limited-edition copy of Warring Worms from the 2001 Midwest Classic in which only 20 of these were made and after the show, it sold for $100+ online. This was the exact same game as was released by Billy Eno earlier in 2001, with the exception of the packaging. That was the only thing that made the difference. I feel that the protos are generally the same way -- whether they are released or not doesn't necessarily impact their value.

I don't know if there is anything else to the point of this message, other then the fact that I think that tempers have flaired over a topic that may not impact the market as much as people on either side think. Underneath it all, a good game will sell well in cartridge form if it looks good too, and collectors are happy to get a limited edition cartridge with a game that has been online for months, if it means something to them.

Just my two cents.

[sku_u]

I never said anyone should GIVE their stuff away. I suggested doing an exclusive THEN doing a cheaper run BEFORE releasing any ROM to maximize the return and minimize the losses.

But that's exactly what we've done, sku_u!

Like I said, the CGE site has always had the games for sale after the show. The only reason it's not up there now is because we're hawking 2004, but if you want the games, they're still available, and at a better price than they were at last years' show.

That's not how it's perceived or presented each year leading up to the event. The way I've seen it as an outsider (and yes, I'm an outsider when it comes to gaming cons since I have yet to attend one) is that you're selling games that will only be available at the show and if I can't make it I'm SOL. You happened to have had extras each year after the show ended. Who's to say you will this year?

Please understand I'm trying to get you to see things from my perspective. I'm not accusing you of ROM hoarding or anything along those lines.

[digitalpress]

That's not how it's perceived or presented each year leading up to the event. The way I've seen it as an outsider (and yes, I'm an outsider when it comes to gaming cons since I have yet to attend one) is that you're selling games that will only be available at the show and if I can't make it I'm SOL. You happened to have had extras each year after the show ended. Who's to say you will this year?

I don't know why you perceive it that way. When I posted the three CGE games on the site last year, I was specific about them being DEBUTS, not EXCLUSIVES. Six days after the show the front page had a link to the games for sale. The year before was not much different.

I cannot speak for EVERYONE who releases games at CGE, This whole thing started when we were cited specifically as "ROM hoarders".


Please understand I'm trying to get you to see things from my perspective. I'm not accusing you of ROM hoarding or anything along those lines.

I appreciate your opinion, sku_u! Intelligent people talk these things out and either see the other side or agree to disagree. No ill will towards you regardless of which side you stand on, but mark my words, there has been no such thing as a "CGE Exclusive" released by the CGE team since 2001 if not earlier.

[Kid Ice]

That's not how it's perceived or presented each year leading up to the event. The way I've seen it as an outsider (and yes, I'm an outsider when it comes to gaming cons since I have yet to attend one) is that you're selling games that will only be available at the show and if I can't make it I'm SOL. You happened to have had extras each year after the show ended. Who's to say you will this year?


So your premise is that DP will sell the game at a premium at CGE, and then the game will never be available again in any form? Keep in mind we're going on less than five years of "history" here.

[sku_u]

That's not how it's perceived or presented each year leading up to the event. The way I've seen it as an outsider (and yes, I'm an outsider when it comes to gaming cons since I have yet to attend one) is that you're selling games that will only be available at the show and if I can't make it I'm SOL. You happened to have had extras each year after the show ended. Who's to say you will this year?


So your premise is that DP will sell the game at a premium at CGE, and then the game will never be available again in any form? Keep in mind we're going on less that five years of "history" here.

No, I was going on the premise that they'd only be made available at the show and never seen again in cart form, but from what I read in DP's response, that was obviously a misconception on my part.

I hate emulation. The only purpose it serves to me is to try out a game once or twice to see if it's worth possessing. I don't care about the ROM availability issue. My only concern is the availability of the ROM as a repro cart.

[Darth Vader]

First off, thanks to the Collector for alerting me to this...

Secondly, I have nothing against anyone from anywhere. And I really try to make that clear with all of my dealings. I'm sure that everyone here isn't an angel, I'm sure that everyone on AtariAge aren't angels and I sure as hell ain't. That having been said, I feel as if I need to clear this up a bit...


It was also a real shame that the folks running the Midwest Classic got bullied by AA into dropping DP as a sponsor.

Actually, both AtariAge and Digital Press had been signed on as sponsors of the show for three months together and at no time did anyone from AtariAge demand the removal of Digital Press as a sponsor. The people that need to know about the whole thing already do, and I'd rather not breech this topic again as I literally spent a week of sleepless nights trying to decide what to do. The final decision was made from everyone's input, and it was more or less a matter of other people's principals that I got stuck in the middle of. The decision that ended up happening was made purely on a business-basis, and was not a case of anyone "winning" above anyone else, no matter how it may be perceived.

Hope that clears it up. I consider people on both this board and AtariAge to be my friends, and all of this stupid in-fighting doesn't benefit anyone. I wish we could just put an end to it all.

One problem with that Dan. YOU are the show organizer and if someone, ANYONE in the gaming community wishes to sponsor your event, wouldn't it be best to let them sponsor it?? I mean, they are helping offset the costs of running the show, aren't they? I don't see the point in letting other sponsors decide how you should run your show, which is what happened by not allowing a DP sponsorship. And if it wasn't AA, then WHO was it?? If someone is that shallow that they won't sponsor/participate in an event just because they have DP sponsorship, they seriously need to get a life. If they won't participate because of DP being there, what does that really say about them??

I truly appreciated your efforts on making MGC possible. It's obviously alot of work to make it happen, but you gotta understand that not allowing one faction to sponsor the event isn't the right way to go.

Danny

[punkoffgirl]

Holy freakin' god. I have a new goal in life: save up enough money to buy a prototype, then broadcast on webcam as I smash it into smithereens. If I ever win the lottery, I'm going to buy up as many as I can, and take pictures of me using them to prop up furniture.

So what if the owner wants to keep it to themselves?
So what if they don't want to dump it, or have copies made to sell?
So what if they DID have copies made to sell and wanted to profit from it?
BIG
STINKING
DEAL.

Why does everyone "deserve" a piece of the pie? Why would someone buying a prototype have to consider other peoples feelings on the issue of releasing it or not, people that did not contribute to the effort or cost of getting the prototype? Why is it okay for other people to sell or trade other, released games at a profit so they can buy more games, or pay their rent, or whatever, but it's wrong suddenly when it involves a proto?

[goatdan]

One problem with that Dan. YOU are the show organizer and if someone, ANYONE in the gaming community wishes to sponsor your event, wouldn't it be best to let them sponsor it?? I mean, they are helping offset the costs of running the show, aren't they? I don't see the point in letting other sponsors decide how you should run your show, which is what happened by not allowing a DP sponsorship. And if it wasn't AA, then WHO was it?? If someone is that shallow that they won't sponsor/participate in an event just because they have DP sponsorship, they seriously need to get a life. If they won't participate because of DP being there, what does that really say about them??

I truly appreciated your efforts on making MGC possible. It's obviously alot of work to make it happen, but you gotta understand that not allowing one faction to sponsor the event isn't the right way to go.

I can honestly say that it was not in any way that cut-and-dried of a decision. It seems to have been an issue just like this ROM issue -- no one side was right, no one side was wrong and in the end everyone loses. The fact that some people brought up this topic against Joe and my's wishes is extremely disappointing to me, and arguing about it without knowing the entire details is pointless. If you seriously want to talk about this more, I will take it to private messages, but I won't go too much more into detail than what I already have done on here.

[Mr.FoodMonster]

Just because you found it, logically you shouldn't keep it away from everyone, no matter how much you paid.

Why?

Because. I could give you a million 'What if so and so didnt do so and so' that would fit here, but im not going to. What I will say is that why would you hold something back from the entire community of gamers just like yourself. How would you like it if someone came across a box full of 100 protos, and they were a buck a piece, but the guy didnt want to release them into the public? Whats the point? I guess my logic works differently than everyone elses.

I dunno, I just think all rivalrys or whatever you want to call them are childish.

[bjk7382]

Why would someone buying a prototype have to consider other peoples feelings on the issue of releasing it or not, people that did not contribute to the effort or cost of getting the prototype?
It is a piece of history, why wouldn't you want to preserve that. And better yet, why not share it with other people that would also care about it?

[punkoffgirl]

Why would someone buying a prototype have to consider other peoples feelings on the issue of releasing it or not, people that did not contribute to the effort or cost of getting the prototype?
It is a piece of history, why wouldn't you want to preserve that. And better yet, why not share it with other people that would also care about it?


You could preserve it in a glass case in your very own home, or under the leg of your couch. Sure they teach you sharing is good in kindergarten, but that doesn't mean you're evil if you don't.

[Kepone]

I really don't feel comfortable being part of a community where there's always some stupid, fucking rivalry between folks. Pardon my language.

Is it a crime to be neutral on these subjects?

Thankfully, there are other sites besides AA and DP that DON'T go after each other's throats out there.

I honestly don't care if I'm banned here. I came here to interact with other fans of classic gaming. Unfortunately, the more threads like this that pop up, the more I am tempted to leave altogether.

[o2william]

Sure they teach you sharing is good in kindergarten, but that doesn't mean you're evil if you don't.

People may think you're evil, though -- or selfish at least. If you're OK with that, then more power to you. Just don't be surprised when the other kids say that they don't like you, or start hanging out with other kids who choose to share their toys.

Hands off my finger paints! ;)

[RCM]

xKeponex wrote:

I really don't feel comfortable being part of a community where there's always some stupid, fucking rivalry between folks. Pardon my language.

Is it a crime to be neutral on these subjects?

Thankfully, there are other sites besides AA and DP that DON'T go after each other's throats out there.

I honestly don't care if I'm banned here. I came here to interact with other fans of classic gaming. Unfortunately, the more threads like this that pop up, the more I am tempted to leave altogether.

Then leave. Nobody is forcing you to stay. If you have a problem with a board where people are able to speak their minds then go away. ANd big deal if there is a rivalry. Shit happens. You don't have to read this thread or post on it if it upsets you. There are plenty of other threads that have nothing to do with this. I doubt you will be banned for your comments.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

[Phosphor Dot Fossils]

I can definitely vouch that xKeponex won't be banned for his comments in this thread.

If airing this stuff out and getting it on the table can help to stamp out the "rivalry" such as it is, then let's do it. That way, when the dust settles, we can go back to pouring all this energy into playing games and doing some good stuff for the hobby, be it running expos, web sites, creating homebrews, what have you. Life's too short. I'd rather get the "rivalry" out of the way and get back to the cool stuff - so in a sense, I think I understand where xKeponex is coming from. :)

[DStriemer]

Maybe I’ll be there to shake your hand
Maybe I’ll be there to share the land
That they’ll be giving away
When we all live together.

--The Guess Who

Yeah, it's taken out of context but it works....

Look for the good in everyone, if you can't find it, wait.

[MarioAllStar2600]

Well lets not get out of hand here. COUGHrcmCOUGH. This is just a debate. Yes it should have been locked like Jon Hardies but I enjoy it.

I think the grudge is freaking awsome. I love it. There isn't much of one publicly but when there is it hilarious.

[captain nintendo]

Is it a crime to be neutral on these subjects?

Not at all.


Thankfully, there are other sites besides AA and DP that DON'T go after each other's throats out there.

AA and DP arent always after each others throat. :roll:
(other sites? I know not of any) :P



I honestly don't care if I'm banned here. I came here to interact with other fans of classic gaming. Unfortunately, the more threads like this that pop up, the more I am tempted to leave altogether.

Sometimes issues need to be cleared up.
Dont you think things were discussed in a friendly way in this thread ? ( I do )

[Kepone]

I can understand that some people like rivalries and there's nothing like a little friendly competition. But when it gets out of hand, that's the time for both parties to step back and think, like what is being done now.

After all, we all got into classic gaming for a reason. :)

[captain nintendo]

I can understand that some people like rivalries and there's nothing like a little friendly competition. But when it gets out of hand, that's the time for both parties to step back and think, like what is being done now.

After all, we all got into classic gaming for a reason. :)


Yeah , but they smell over at AA ;) (insert sarcasm)


*Agrees with your classic gaming comment.

[sku_u]

I can understand that some people like rivalries and there's nothing like a little friendly competition. But when it gets out of hand, that's the time for both parties to step back and think, like what is being done now.

After all, we all got into classic gaming for a reason. :)

Relax man, it'll all work out. Everyone's been very civil on both sites and in both threads as far as I can tell. :)

[Azazel]

I really don't feel comfortable being part of a community where there's always some stupid, fucking rivalry between folks. Pardon my language.

Is it a crime to be neutral on these subjects?

Thankfully, there are other sites besides AA and DP that DON'T go after each other's throats out there.

I honestly don't care if I'm banned here. I came here to interact with other fans of classic gaming. Unfortunately, the more threads like this that pop up, the more I am tempted to leave altogether.

You can be neutral. Sometimes it just better to ignore and not even read threads like this if it bothers you that much. Generally for the most the site is run pretty and if you don't like it you can leave. Your not going to be banned over saying stuff like this.

[ubersaurus]

Personally I'm appalled by the level of censorship and childish behavior from the mods and admins of the site. They did make good with Stan and pitfallaimee eventually, which leads me to believe that this situation can be worked out too...but the people on their side need to let things get talked about, aired out, defended, and moved on from.

[Griking]

If you want to get into the copyright issue, technically no one other than the original companies should be releasing ROMS in the first place. But that's an entirely different can of worms altogether. :)


Ignoring that, I do think that in this instance if someone is paying top dollar for something that is one of a kind, it should be their perogative to do with it what they want. If you paid $1000 for something that a week later you could have for free, you'd be kind of miffed, wouldn't you? I know some people will insist releasing a ROM does nothing to the value of a proto (and frankly I don't know if it does or not, nor do I care to debate it) but if the owner of the proto fees it does, that's his right to not release it and not have someone else do it behind his back.


But something that shouldn't go ignored. It seems like people are getting all bent out of shape because they are claiming losses over the release of something that 99% of them never actually owned in the first place. The owners of these prototypes own a piece of plastic which has a bit of code written into it. They don't own the rights to the code itself.

I also believe that when a person considers paying a rediculous amounts of money on a proto they should factor in the fact that a rom will most likely be released at some point. No matter how rare the proto is there's always the possibility that another copy exists and even if not at one point or another someone else owned that proto before you did.

[maxlords]

Ok, I'll jump in here. I'm quite neutral on the whole subject myself. In fact, I could care less about Atari games, protos, or any of that stuff. Hell, I don't even OWN an Atari, and have no interest in it.

That being said, I think things are getting a bit silly here on both sides. You see, we live in the real world. In the real world, if you own something, it's yours to do with as you please. History or not, if I BOUGHT, say, that suitcase that was found that had all the unreleased Beatles music....it would be mine to do with as I pleased. Period. If I wanted to destroy it, I could. To release it, well, that's a different matter due to copyright laws. I don't know squat about that personally so I won't say whether that could be done. To keep it all to myself, sure. The same can be said for ANY proto. No one is under any obligation to do ANYTHING with any prototype game. They can, for all anyone can do about it, use it as a golf tee. It's none of our business. If you don't like it....well...tough. I don't like lots of things about how the world works. Doesn't mean I can do squat about it other than say "Hey, that's not fair!" Well....life isn't fair.

As it has been mentioned quite a bit, some things haven't been released, some have. I'm sure there are reasons for all of it. Interestingly enough, I don't care. It doesn't MATTER in the grand scheme of things. If you get a chance to play it later on, well, cool. If you don't, well, that's sad. Personally, there are a bunch of Neo Geo protos I want to play...I don't get to though. And I'm not saying a word...cause there's plenty of other stuff out there to play.

There is absolutely no reason for AA and DP to bicker about petty crap like this. If you don't like something, SAY something and maybe you'll be able to affect change, just like in politics. Whining gets you nowhere. If you want a law changed, you have to go out and lobby for it. It's the same here. Talking trash doesn't do anything, it just makes things worse. If you have a problem, just say something to the people you have a problem with. Nicely. Maybe being nice will make other be nice back. Funny how such a simple solution eludes us sometimes....

[Griking]

I will say one thing however regarding the ROM issue. Unless you physically OWN the rights to a game, finished or not, it is NOT yours.

Owning a prototype simply means you own something that someone didn't care enough to keep, or keep track of. You can use it, but not profit off of it. This is the EXACT reason that eBay cancels prototype auctions - it's a legal issue.

If, however, you contact the developer and purchase the rights, or otherwise obtain legal ownership to the rights, then you can do what you like.

Otherwise, you have no legal right to the ROM or the game, and it's public domain. PERIOD.

If you are dumb enough to purchase a prototype and assume that it's the only one, and that you have some legal right to the information contained on the ROM, I feel for you.

I totally agree with what you just said. I wish I had read your response before I made my own which appears further down this thread because it pretty much repeats that same thing.

My only disagreement though is..


As for DP selling repros or whatever to help fray the cost of the CGE events - more power to them. They're not doing anything wrong.

Unless they purchased the rights to the game itself from the publisher neither DP or AA have any more rights to sell protos and proto roms than Joe Shmo has the right to sell rom CDs on ebay.

[o2william]

Maybe I should just drop this, but I don't understand the attitudes I'm seeing in many of these posts.


In the real world, if you own something, it's yours to do with as you please. History or not, if I BOUGHT, say, that suitcase that was found that had all the unreleased Beatles music....it would be mine to do with as I pleased. Period. If I wanted to destroy it, I could.

Technically, sure. But do you honestly believe you have NO social obligation to help preserve an artistic or historical artifact? Unreleased Beatles music is both. Sharing it is not a legal obligation, but destroying it is, IMO, irresponsible and frankly, a crime against history. (I have a BA in history, so you know where I stand on this.) We all live in a society. The attitude of "I own it so I can do whatever I want!" is childish when the object has cultural value.

Obscure video game prototypes aren't really in the same league as unreleased material from the most popular musicians of the modern era, but they're an important piece of the particular cultural niche all of us here care about. It bugs me that people would even joke about destroying them just to prove a point. History's more important than your ego, something I think we'd all do well to remember.

OK, I'm getting WAY too philosophical about this. Time to take a cue from Paul McCartney and "Let It Be"... LOL

[Dahne]

They can, for all anyone can do about it, use it as a golf tee.

Probably not. The ball would keep rolling off.

[thegreatescape]

They can, for all anyone can do about it, use it as a golf tee.

Probably not. The ball would keep rolling off.

Hey that gives me an idea for a cool new reality tv show...

Scene 1: Host attaches golf tee and ball to gold NWC cart.
Scene 2: Classic gamer is given golf club and told "if you hit the ball you win the cart".
Scene 3: Crowd laughs as classic gamer collapses from stress.

On topic: Im totally for anything that helps CGE stay alive long enough for me to visit (probably within next 20 years). I just wish teh drama was over some sega protos/repros instead..

[anagrama]

I reckon a homebrew coder should develop 'DP vs. AA: Match of the Millenium' :D

(just kidding)

[Mayhem]

Now that I've finally caught up on both sides... after QoF and I agreed this thread might erupt a little bit last night...

Frankly I applaud Joe for trying to put on a show to the magnitude of CGE every year. When it comes down to it, this is a personal venture rather than a private company run event. And with that, comes no economies of scale (aside from having a lot of your stuff stored not too far away) and no one to boss around doing all the tasks you actually have to do the hard graft of achieving (sponsors, venue hire, alumni etc). Sure I'm paying my entry fee for the convention, but I like to help out making it a better event by doing something more; donating stuff to the museum is one thing. At the end of the day I'm sure Joe gets far more out of doing this from the comments and appreciation people give back than any amount of money in the cashier's box (though that IS kinda important ;) ).

That CGE has never made a profit comes as absolutely no surprise to myself. Having worked with Chris Abbott on the Back in Time Live events and discussed very much the same sort of factors that would apply to CGE, just seeing where a lot of hidden costs come in makes the brain boggle. Notwithstanding quite often the special people attending often have their travel and accommodation paid for by the organisers. That is just one of many things to take into consideration.

When it came to the subject of the repros, I was always under the impression they were there to not only allow people to play the game on a proper machine, but also to help narrow the gap between the ins and outs. Joe pretty much confirmed that in one of his posts. I was also under the impression the ROMs were quite likely to be released once most or all of the repros were sold. That really is a decision out of our hands.

Naturally though to counter what Albert said, no 2002 ROMs were released publically simply, in my opinion, Joe had no need to once "pizzaboy" had done the task; it's akin to closing the door after the horse has bolted. The ROMs were out there and most people had them or were able to get them hence.

If you have a proto and it's the only one, well it's pretty much up to you what to do with it. Personally I'd perserve the image for starters just in case something did happen to the contents. Actually doing something with the ROM however? Choices, choices. Repros are one way to satisfy people who want a copy of the game. Of course if there are less repros made than the demand... given there have been leftovers from 2002 and last year, evidently demand has shrunk then compared to before. The repro market has been saturated since the heady days of 2000 and 2001 when ANY new release was fought over like women waiting for the bouquet toss at a wedding.

Trying to control the ROM however is pretty much out of the hands of the owner though once any repros are made, simply because anyone with a repro can (theoretically) dump it and release it. Hence what happened in 2002. It may not be "morally" correct but as neither the repro maker nor the new owner are legally stated to be allowed to distribute it in the first place without permission, then any flaunt of this law (on the part of the original owner) is only good for our community because that's almost the only way we'd be able to see any of them in the first place!

Maybe we'll see a change of attitude over "the other side" if what QoF/Joe said, and that with enough sponsorship this year meaning the need for repros is gone and certain ROMs in question will be released for free. But I doubt it will alter. There are always people who want everything for nothing, and they will be continue no matter how much you think you sate their appetite. My advice is just ignore the fuckers :P

Personally though the odd repro IS nice anyhow ;)

Even though of course with the CC2 in my possession, the ROM will do...

As a final thought, it's sad to see the community being like this compared to how it was a few years back. Retrogaming, unfortunately, is just another aspect being used as "willy waving" by some people. To which it is no surprise several people are leaving the scene and just not bothering anymore, simply because of the bitching and fighting.

[punkoffgirl]

But do you honestly believe you have NO social obligation to help preserve an artistic or historical artifact?

Yes, I honestly believe that. If I felt like being altruistic, then that would be fine, but what skin off YOUR nose is it if I didn't? You find it ridiculous that people want to claim things as theirs and theirs alone, and *I* find it ridiculous that there's some sense of community entitlement because something might have "cultural value." Hogwash.

[maxlords]

Maybe I should just drop this, but I don't understand the attitudes I'm seeing in many of these posts.


In the real world, if you own something, it's yours to do with as you please. History or not, if I BOUGHT, say, that suitcase that was found that had all the unreleased Beatles music....it would be mine to do with as I pleased. Period. If I wanted to destroy it, I could.

Technically, sure. But do you honestly believe you have NO social obligation to help preserve an artistic or historical artifact? Unreleased Beatles music is both. Sharing it is not a legal obligation, but destroying it is, IMO, irresponsible and frankly, a crime against history. (I have a BA in history, so you know where I stand on this.) We all live in a society. The attitude of "I own it so I can do whatever I want!" is childish when the object has cultural value.

Obscure video game prototypes aren't really in the same league as unreleased material from the most popular musicians of the modern era, but they're an important piece of the particular cultural niche all of us here care about. It bugs me that people would even joke about destroying them just to prove a point. History's more important than your ego, something I think we'd all do well to remember.

OK, I'm getting WAY too philosophical about this. Time to take a cue from Paul McCartney and "Let It Be"... LOL

I'm not joking. I feel no qualms about it. I don't believe I have ANY obligations to anyone. That's the great thing about living in a free country. You don't owe anyone squat. I don't believe that there's any social value to pop culture phenomena. In a thousand years if it's an archaeological thing and important to society for some reason...sure, but now it's much the same as having a prototype Star Wars figure....completely irrelevant to anyone but fans. History is NOT important because it's written by people who view it from the future. You never get the straight facts in most history...you get a story that uses facts.

I really don't see how (assuming this were true) my having money and spending $1000 or $5000 or whatever on a proto is anyone's business but my own. Personally, if I bought one, I'd buy it to play it and I certainly wouldn't bother to dump it. Guess it's a good thing I don't have any interest in em or I'd be the most hated man in gaming.

To me, it's not a matter of hoarding. It's a matter or me paying my entrance fee to play the game. If you want to spend your money and give away something...well...you're a nicer person than me. I wouldn't care...or bother to do so. However if someone asked me nicely, say a friend, or an aquaintance, well, that's maybe a different story. But what do I care about people I don't even know? I don't. What obligation does anyone have to people they've never met and don't care about? None. Simple as that.




They can, for all anyone can do about it, use it as a golf tee.

Probably not. The ball would keep rolling off.

Well, I'd have to buy like 3 protos and glue them together....it would work for a shot or two :) Point is, if I wanted to, that's my choice if I laid out the bread. Same as it would be my choice AND right to burn a copy of Action Comics #1 if I bought one.

[Nature Boy]

You know, running CGE seems to me a lot like running pickup hockey.

The guys who I play with organize it because they enjoy playing hockey, and they enjoy getting their friends and their friends' friends an opportunity to play.

However if you've ever organized *any* sports-related activity you'll know this to be true: you *always* lose money. Some people don't pay the full amount (some don't pay anything at all). Sometimes you just don't get enough guys to cover the cost.

So what do they do? They sell beer after the game in the parking lot. $2 a bottle. And they eventually make enough money to break even.

Selling prototypes to cover an exhibition isn't much different IMO. Mostly because I agree with Cap'n Wrong's entitlement statements. Just because I've played hockey doesn't mean I'm entitled to a beer. And just because I enjoy acquiring ROMs and collecting classic games doesn't mean I'm entitled to have every available cartridge dumped to ROM.

(I have to admit I don't see why people get so worked up about protos anyway. Unless it's a finished game it's not like I ever do much other than look at the screens, and a screenshot works just as well for that as a ROM would).

One last thing: the AA vs DP rivalry? I agree with a certain someone who said it really doesn't affect the hobby one way or the other. The only people it affects are the people who get worked up about it or have grudges one way or the other. I might use one site more than the other, but no amount of bickering is going to stop me from using one.

[Cav]

Can I ask a practical question at this point?

Are we gonna do Stonehenge tomorrow night?

[Atarileaf]

Just wanted to say I really enjoy Atariage. With the exception of a minor few, everyone is very friendly and helpful there. I haven't been here as often, being Canadian I divide my online videogame website time between AA and CGCC.ca and anytime I've PM'd Albert he's been nothing but friendly and helpful.

I personally don't care about protos. If I had to choose, I'd like to see them preserved in rom form if not cart form for anyone who would like to get it, but I won't lose sleep over seeing or playing something I've never heard of before.

[AB Positive]

I lost the post, so here's the condensed form.

It's not AA v. DP. It's a few people AT AA who have a personal grudge against Joe and therefore the rest of this site (as I've gotten a good deal of static from these folks for being a "DP'er"). These people, however, have a large amount of sway and power to use AA and therefore use the AA site as their weapon of choice when lobbing an attack over here.

They use censorship (locking/deleting of posts, well documented by us that have had it happen) and derision (I've had topics there trashed because of my status here) to basically get people here pissed off. I have NO clue why they'd do it otherwise. There's nothing to win if there was a real AA/DP fight. Nothing at all.

I don't care about the rom issue, I don't care about the other issues that have before, or will erupt. I just don't like that they run their site as if they're a monarchy. "Do as we think or not at all"

This site has people post about how unfair and Nazi-like it is from people that don't like that their opinions are countered. They say the mods are heavy handed, but for what? Rarely is there a lock on a thread and you NEVER see a thread deleted. Even IGN is more Nazi-like than this place, as the number one rule given for modding here is to let people speak. Joe and Earl and Kris and all the other mods let this be known regularly.

THAT is how a forum should be run. Because, you know, forums are meant for people to speak their mind.

This conversation COULD be happening at AA... oh wait, no. The topic was locked. No replies against the Monarchy.


This was a post countering the thoughts and acts of 3-4 people at Atari Age, and not a condemnation of the site on the whole. 99% of AA members are cool, and have been nothing but nice to me. The other three people can go to hell for trying to make my internet life a living one.

-AG