Who "Discovered" the Meltdown Proto? [Archive]

digitalpress

08-24-2004, 01:01 PM

I'm just wondering if a certain instruction sheet that had a Videa copyright has any part to play in this.

I'm not sure that I've seen that. Can you elaborate? We met Mr. Delman through our contacts with other alumni at CGE.

I've also got Targ to share with you all, I was going to stagger the releases a little but since this effort has been misinterpreted by one individual to be some kind of plot against the guy who has a broken EPROM of the same game, looks like I'm going to have to nip that in the bud.

Give me a little time to get the most complete version of the game online and I'll have it on the site here for you as well.

<-- is your friend :)

TheRedEye

08-24-2004, 01:01 PM

Posting before drama.

EDIT: Where are my manners, thanks Joe!

EDIT2: Didn't see the above posts, I'm too late.

AB Positive

08-24-2004, 01:06 PM

wow, look at how angry they get, just because you have now own the legal rights to a game they were trying to dump. Jeez...

topic locked, what a shock.

-AG

Sniderman

08-24-2004, 01:06 PM

Personally, I was under the impression that the whole idea was to get a working meltdown ROM in the hands of the players and collectors. I think it's great that this other one surfaced, because it really looks like the other prototype may not be functional - even after a lot of hard work has gone into it.

Since this ROM was going to be released free anyway, what difference does it make where it came from? Is credit for the find THAT important? And if this second proto never surfaced and the first one was never completely repaired, wouldn't the community be poorer for the loss? After all, I've heard over and over again "Get the ROMs dumped and in the hands of the people," which seems to be precisely what's going on here.

I am confused by the angst, as a working Meltdown has surfaced, been dumped, and is now out in the public's hands - which is what the goal was, right?

digitalpress

08-24-2004, 01:10 PM

But maybe DP has finally changed its policy and will release all other ROMs now too. Then I will be first to admit that I was wrong.

Hey Thomas, I'll meet you halfway and get you something else that's brand new today. But listen, as I've explained many times, some of the CGE titles are released to offset costs of the show. Maybe some people have lots of money to plunk down on a game for their own collection. I do not.

Really just trying to do as much as we can for the gaming community - you just have to understand that half of that is hosting Classic Gaming Expo. I think at least 1800 attendees would agree with me on that.

ghsqb

08-24-2004, 01:13 PM

Maybe I am wrong, but this smells.

It might be a coincidence that two prototypes of the same game are found at the same time, but even then, giving it away for free is maybe a bit too obviously unusual compared to DP's previous records.

But maybe DP has finally changed its policy and will release all other ROMs now too. Then I will be first to admit that I was wrong.

Main difference between AA and DP is that this clown can come in here and post this garbage and Joe will allow it to stay.

The thought police won't lock the topic/delete the posts.

Everyones just gonna have to realize that no matter what Joe does, to the kool-aid drinkers over at AA they will always find a way to spin it to a negative.

To Joe: You've proven yourself time and again man, just GAME ON bro.

TheRedEye

08-24-2004, 01:19 PM

I was going to reply to the angsty little twat in the AA topic, but it was locked :(

Thomas Jentzsch

08-24-2004, 01:23 PM

Hey Thomas, I'll meet you halfway and get you something else that's brand new today.
Better than nothing. :)

But listen, as I've explained many times, some of the CGE titles are released to offset costs of the show.
I can follow you here. But I can not understad why you had to choose Meltdown. After all you knew that many people where already working on preserving (and releasing) it. So, if you had choosen any other unreleased ROM, everybody would be happy now. You even could have offered your help to Tempest. Then both of you could have released the ROM to public together. And nobody would have had any reason for negative feelings.

Knowing the tense situation very well, you cannot be surprised at all that this looks like a cheap trick now.

BTW: I am not annoyed because I wasn't involved into the first release (I really don't need that), but by the at least very "unfortunate" way it happened.

digitalpress

08-24-2004, 01:25 PM

I can follow you here. But I can not understad why you had to choose Meltdown. After all you knew that many people where already working on preserving (and releasing) it. So, if you had choosen any other unreleased ROM, everybody would be happy now. You even could have offered your help to Tempest. Then both of you could have released the ROM to public together. And nobody would have had any reason for negative feelings.

Knowing the tense situation very well, you cannot be surprised at all that this looks like a cheap trick now.

BTW: I am not annoyed because I wasn't involved into the first release (I really don't need that), but by the at least very "unfortunate" way it happened.

I don't really understand the problem. Isn't this something that the people working on restoring that EPROM can USE to assist? What exactly is the "cheap trick"?

<-- wants you to want me

rolenta

08-24-2004, 01:26 PM

I'm just wondering if a certain instruction sheet that had a Videa copyright has any part to play in this.

I'm not sure that I've seen that. Can you elaborate? We met Mr. Delman through our contacts with other alumni at CGE.

When Tempest announced that he was getting Meltdown, I announced on the AA board that I had instructions for it. Matt asked if he could have a copy and Scott Stilphin asked for a copy for archival. I sent a copy to both. I guess Scott sent a copy to John. Any way, John asked me about the instructions at CGE.

The instructions say that the game is copyrighted by Videa.

TheSmirk

08-24-2004, 01:42 PM

TheRedEye

08-24-2004, 01:47 PM

video_game_addict

08-24-2004, 01:55 PM

I was going to reply to the angsty little twat in the AA topic, but it was locked :(

You mean the gent calling Joe a twat? Funny thing, I went back a page in the thread, to see what lead up to that comment there was (if any) and when I got back to reply to that whiner, I found that a bunch of posts have been completely removed.

Yeah, him. I saw it was unlocked and went to reply again, but that guy's posts were deleted.

Actually that 'guy' is a she not he. ;) But ultimately that does no good for anybody with the needless bickering & name calling, and is why most of those types of flamewars get locked down on AA. It's not something AA wants going on, on their site.

I pretty much agree with Thomas above. And I also think Joe gets it, but is just a little thick headed..

rolenta

08-24-2004, 01:55 PM

I'm not sure that I've seen that. Can you elaborate? We met Mr. Delman through our contacts with other alumni at CGE.

Come on Joe, please don't play me for a fool.

I have to elaborate that Joe had nothing to do with anything that I mentioned in my previous post. In all the time I've known him he has been nothing but fair, honest, and generous to me. When I read his post where he said he didn't know anything about the instruction manual, I got mad because I thought for sure that it was he who had asked me why I sent a copy to Matt. As I wrote the message I realized that it really had been John, not Joe, who had asked me.

In addition, I want to add that no one here did anything wrong. If what I have said is true, I'm just peeved because I didn't get any credit for my little unknowing role in the whole thing.

digitalpress

08-24-2004, 02:01 PM

In addition, I want to add that no one here did anything wrong. If what I have said is true, I'm just peeved because I didn't get any credit for my little unknowing role in the whole thing.

I certainly do get into a few scrapes. Put a game online and chaos ensues.

Len, we've known each other forever. If you want credit for giving one of the guys a clue that ultimately led to the discovery of the game that was released here, just send me the way you'd like the text to look in an e-mail or PM and I'll make the necessary modifications to the game's page.

Is there anyone else I offended? Please say so now because I'd like to unpack from the show!

Game ON. Eventually.

TheRedEye

08-24-2004, 02:09 PM

EDIT: You know, nevermind.

stonic

08-24-2004, 02:18 PM

Len, I think you're jumping the gun a bit here. First of all, nobody even knew Howard Delman was going to attend (if we did, he'd have been on the alumni list), let alone bring any games with him! And actually, Howard first mentioned that fact in conversation with D-man at his booth (the guy with all the 2600 Alien movie games), who then referred him to to the organizers about it, b/c of their previous efforts of releasing prototypes. That's how it went down.

Maybe I am wrong, but this smells.

It might be a coincidence that two prototypes of the same game are found at the same time, but even then, giving it away for free is maybe a bit too obviously unusual compared to DP's previous records.

But maybe DP has finally changed its policy and will release all other ROMs now too. Then I will be first to admit that I was wrong.

How ironic, considering all the unreleased roms you have. Thomas, you and others at AA have been complaining that CGE never releases any of their roms, even after they explained the reason why, and even after the roms had already been posted on AA against CGE's wishes. So now Joe releases this latest find, and yet you're still trying to spin this into something against AA? I don't get it, but I guess no matter what Joe did or didn't do, you'd find some fault with it. Please do us a favor and take the anti-diatribe elsewhere.

Personally, the whole drama with the broken Meltdown prototype was ridiculous from the start, but after a few weeks (?) it's clear that his prototype is permanently damaged. Now, what was Joe to do, sit on this copy of Meltdown in the hopes that the damaged version could somehow be fixed - in spite of Howard Delman's blessing to release it? Join forces with Reichert - someone who tried his best to cause problems at last year's CGE? It's unfortunate that Reichert blew $1k on a broken game, but that was his choice and his alone. Besides, for someone who claims to have been saving for a house for over 3 years now, even you have to admit that wasn't exactly a smart thing to do.

Thomas Jentzsch

08-24-2004, 02:21 PM

What exactly is the "cheap trick"?
Ok, I'll try to formulate a direct question:

Why did you chose Meltdown out of all the unreleased ROMs you have?

You know Tempest did spend $1000 for preserving the proto, not even knowing wether it was still working or not. His only hope was, that he may be able to dump it, release the binary and get back some of his money he risked by making carts of it.

So what will happen next time? Will he risk his money again? Or will the prototype be bought by someone who wants to keep it only for himself or maybe even get lost completely?

I hope that was clear enough.

digitalpress

08-24-2004, 02:28 PM

What exactly is the "cheap trick"?
Ok, I'll try to formulate a direct question:

Why did you chose Meltdown out of all the unreleased ROMs you have?

It was between that and the other Videa prototype. The other game is much better, and we felt much more "saleable".

I would say the same for the Targ vs. Wings prototype. We may be able to get Wings fully working and secure the rights to release a saleable game. You can have Targ for free. See the other thread to grab that one.

You know Tempest did spend $1000 for preserving the proto, not even knowing wether it was still working or not. His only hope was, that he may be able to dump it, release the binary and get back some of his money he risked by making carts of it.

Careful there, Thomas. This is exactly the kind of thing that the "ROM hoarders" of CGE get in trouble for. Trying to make back their investment. We've had people release our ROMS before, if you'll recall. It happens. Not everyone gets to have a one-of-a-kind. We've learned to live with that reality.

So what will happen next time? Will he risk his money again? Or will the prototype be bought by someone who wants to keep it only for himself or maybe even get lost completely?

I don't know. I suppose it's a chance we all take when we spend bucks on something like that. He seemed to be willing to take the risk on buying an EPROM with a broken pin, sight unseen. This was another risk he must have calculated.

I hope that was clear enough.

Crystal. I hope I was able to answer your queries likewise.

Sniderman

08-24-2004, 02:35 PM

You know Tempest did spend $1000 for preserving the proto, not even knowing wether it was still working or not. His only hope was, that he may be able to dump it, release the binary and get back some of his money he risked by making carts of it. I have to jump in now. You're saying that - somehow - it's Joe's fault that Matt bought a sight-unseen, untested, unconfirmed-that-it-works, apparently-broken EPROM. Matt took a chance and it didn't pan out, even though he's still trying to get it to work.

Now, a working, whole, brand-spanking-new ROM is found and the guys release it. And somehow Joe's a villian because Matt may not be able to recoup the money he gambled away on a broken proto? I really don't get this circular logic. I'll try that at Vegas next time.

"Excuse me, Ms. Poker Dealer? I was CERTAIN I was gonna draw to a Royal Flush and get back the money I just gambled on this hand. Instead, I see someone else got the Ace I was hoping to get. Now, what am I gonna do to recoup my losses?"

So what will happen next time? Will he risk his money again? Or will the prototype be bought by someone who wants to keep it only for himself or maybe even get lost completely? I would hope that maybe next time he confirms what he's buying. I'd never buy a car without a test drive first.

Thomas Jentzsch

08-24-2004, 02:50 PM

How ironic, considering all the unreleased roms you have.
I knew you wouldn't be able to resist to fuel the fire. Anyway, from our private conversation you should know that you won't be able to provoke me.

For the record: The only unreleased ROMs I have are those who where send to me to analyze (and/or fix) them. I only got them because I promised not to forward them to anybody. It would be a very bad action if I would have broken my promises like you wanted me too. But I didn't back then and I won't in the future and you won't be able to spin this against me.

Thomas, you and others at AA have been complaining that CGE never releases any of their roms, even after they explained the reason why, and even after the roms had already been posted on AA against CGE's wishes.
Now you mention it, maybe you should tell the whole story about those unwanted ROM postings. I am not sure everybody knows about "Pizzaboy" I + II.

So now Joe releases this latest find, and yet you're still trying to spin this into something against AA? I don't get it, but I guess no matter what Joe did or didn't do, you'd find some fault with it. Please do us a favor and take the anti-diatribe elsewhere.
Nobody is spinning anything. I think I have made myself very clear why the whole action looks a bit suspicious to me. There was no diatribe from me, I was just telling how I feel about the situation and asking questions.

Personally, the whole drama with the broken Meltdown prototype was ridiculous from the start, but after a few weeks (?) it's clear that his prototype is permanently damaged.
I may be clear to you, but I am afraid you are quite alone in your private wishful reality here.

Now, what was Joe to do, sit on this copy of Meltdown in the hopes that the damaged version could somehow be fixed - in spite of Howard Delman's blessing to release it? Join forces with Reichert - someone who tried his best to cause problems at last year's CGE? It's unfortunate that Reichert blew $1k on a broken game, but that was his choice and his alone. Besides, for someone who claims to have been saving for a house for over 3 years now, even you have to admit that wasn't exactly a smart thing to do.
Looks like you are really happy that Tempest may have lost $1000. That tells a lot about you. Probably TheRedEye was absolutely right when he wrote:

It's not all "Atari Age vs. Digital Press," there are just some weird little personal rivalries (as above) that keep the sites from co-existing peacefully.
We both know you are one of them. Thank you very much! :(

digitalpress

08-24-2004, 02:56 PM

The majority of your previous post is personal opinion, which you are entitled to and I respect. I can comment on this, however.

Now you mention it, maybe you should tell the whole story about those unwanted ROM postings. I am not sure everybody knows about "Pizzaboy" I + II.

The story was recently told and is to date undisputed.

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39145

Thomas, probably without even realizing it, you are part of the wedge that is driving this community apart. If you were as neutral as you claim to be you would pay more attention to the good people of this community as well.

Nez

08-24-2004, 02:59 PM

I agree with sniderman, you shouldn't buy a broken cart, if you plan on making money off of it. Just not a smart buisness move. No one, I'm shure, was wishing him bad luck on restoring his car. But his bad luck should not detur others from releasing games that everyone would like to play, especially when one of the carts look doa. After a year of trying to fix it I'd say the time is up.

rolenta

08-24-2004, 03:00 PM

Ha ha, the joke's on me.

When I sent the instructions to Scott and Matt, I noted that the copyrighted was from a company called Videa, whoever they were! I should have read my own book. This appears on page 87 in the third edition of Phoenix:

"Ironically, Atari played a major role in the birth of Sente. In 1980, the arcade tank simulator Battlezone had been programmed by Ed Rotberg. After he was forced to convert Battlezone to the Army�s specifications, Rotberg left Atari and joined up with two other Atari engineers to form a company called Videa. When Bushnell decided he wanted to enter the videogame business once again, he purchased Videa for over $1 million and renamed it Sente Technologies."

Thomas Jentzsch

08-24-2004, 03:05 PM

See the other thread to grab that one.
Directly after posting this message. :)

Careful there, Thomas. This is exactly the kind of thing that the "ROM hoarders" of CGE get in trouble for. Trying to make back their investment.
That's not the point. AFAIK most people don't like that you sell the carts first and release the ROMs many, many months later. And a lot of people are under the (right or wrong) impression that you are having a lot of more ROMs which you are "hoarding" for years before giving the community a chance to play them.

Since Tempest bought the proto with the very clear, made public intention to release the ROM immediately, there is quite a difference between what you are accused for and his plans for Meltdown.

Crystal. I hope I was able to answer your queries likewise.
Yes, thank you. I still wish you would have decided a bit more careful. It would have saved us this whole unpleasant discussion and kept those "weird personal rivalities" where they belong.

digitalpress

08-24-2004, 03:12 PM

Crystal. I hope I was able to answer your queries likewise.
Yes, thank you. I still wish you would have decided a bit more careful. It would have saved us this whole unpleasant discussion and kept those "weird personal rivalities" where they belong.

If my reply was crystal clear you would not have made this comment.

I've explained as clearly as I can. At this point it seems pretty obvious that you will only see things the way you want to see them.

TheSmirk

08-24-2004, 03:29 PM

TheSmirk

08-24-2004, 03:30 PM

Oh, BTW, just noticed the thread over at AA has been unlocked, after the cleanup.

Thomas Jentzsch

08-24-2004, 03:33 PM

If my reply was crystal clear you would not have made this comment.

I've explained as clearly as I can. At this point it seems pretty obvious that you will only see things the way you want to see them.
No, I think got you completely and I can follow your arguments very well.

But nevertheless you cannot ignore that fact the some people (including me) are feeling at least a bit surprised about this coincidence. And some are getting really upset. Maybe we are completely wrong here, maybe not, but with a just slightly different decission (e.g. a different ROM or a different time), you could have helped avoiding all that. I am not blaming you at all for doing this intentionally, I just would like you to be very sensitive next time. Even more than your probably already are.

CX2K

08-24-2004, 03:34 PM

Matt asked if he could have a copy and Scott Stilphin asked for a copy for archival. I sent a copy to both. I guess Scott sent a copy to John. Any way, John asked me about the instructions at CGE and asked why I sent a copy to Matt.

Hey Len,

You better get your act together. I don't know what the fuck you're talking about and am quite pissed about this. I barely had time to speak to you at CGE let alone ask you about some instructions that I knew nothing about. In fact it infuriates me that you would try to take credit for this in some way.

I never saw your friggin instructions nor did I know who all the principles were for the company. I knew Roger Hector was one of them but had never met or spoke to Howard Delman before HE approached US at CGE. And Howard was the person we dealt with on behalf of Videa.

Tim took the words out of my mouth. What a bunch of hypocrites we have in this hobby. All I ever hear is how it's so important to get the games in the hands of the community. Well, that's what we did. Now, all we're hearing about is ranting over who got credit for releasing it. Who gives a fuck?! It's in the community and that's what everyone wanted isn't it?

It's ridiculous to see all these people calling us pricks because we did what they claim we never do; release a rom. And the notion that we should go to Matt and work with him is just as ludicrous. Almost everyone knows there is friction between us, so we're just supposed to approach him and make a peace offering so he can continue his pot-shots at us every chance he gets.

Tell you what, Matt Reichert has my permission to tell the world that he was reponsible for releasing the Meltdown proto. Over time I'm sure everone will believe it along with all the other lies that are continuously presented as truths to make us look bad.

John

stonic

08-24-2004, 03:40 PM

For the record: The only unreleased ROMs I have are those who where send to me to analyze (and/or fix) them. I only got them because I promised not to forward them to anybody. It would be a very bad action if I would have broken my promises like you wanted me too. But I didn't back then and I won't in the future and you won't be able to spin this against me.

I'm well aware that you and Reichert's #1 excuse is the 'we don't have permission' reason. Of course I have no way of knowing just how truthful that is, but either way I'm sure you both don't mind getting to enjoy the games for yourselves ;) I can only wonder what your response would have been if Joe did the same....

Now you mention it, maybe you should tell the whole story about those unwanted ROM postings. I am not sure everybody knows about "Pizzaboy" I + II.

Oh I think they've heard parts of it, as I have. You should give people more credit than that. They at least know "Pizzaboy I" was an anti-CGE person who started that whole incident. But since I was neither person, I don't know the whole story. Apparently you do, so please - enlighten us.

Nobody is spinning anything. I think I have made myself very clear why the whole action looks a bit suspicious to me. There was no diatribe from me, I was just telling how I feel about the situation and asking questions.

It probably looks suspicious to you b/c you're clearly just another anti-DP person from AA. You immediately formed an opinion about this, which was that this was somehow a slag against Reichert, w/o even knowing the whole story. Next time, why don't you get all the facts - from both sides - before spouting off.

I may be clear to you, but I am afraid you are quite alone in your private wishful reality here.

Last I heard, his copy didn't work. Unless you're privy to some inside information that says otherwise, that's all the facts we (the community) have at this point.

Looks like you are really happy that Tempest may have lost $1000. That tells a lot about you.

Once again (surprise, surprise) you are trying to spin this around into something else. Hey, maybe you can afford to gamble $1k against lousy odds, but I can't. And from what he's stated in the past few years, he can't either. Personally that was a pretty reckless and foolish gamble to take and nobody forced him to do it. Does it suck to lose that much money? Absolutely. Do I feel sorry for him? No. Again - it was HIS CHOICE, and he has no one to blame but himself.

Probably TheRedEye was absolutely right when he wrote:
It's not all "Atari Age vs. Digital Press," there are just some weird little personal rivalries (as above) that keep the sites from co-existing peacefully.We both know you are one of them. Thank you very much!

Whatever you say, DJ spin-master :D That is your opinion. Just as I'm sure your posts in this thread were purely done out of an honest effort to stop such rivalries :roll:

Spare us your false martyrdoms. Your previous recent 'contributions' to this site have done nothing but steer threads down the flamewar path. And you of all people should know that if you continue such actions, people like myself will call you out on it. Every time.

Daria

08-24-2004, 03:52 PM

So am I crazy for buying a possibly non-working prototype sight unseen for a grand? Probably. But as we all know when it comes to prototype collecting you have to take some risks. Prototype collecting is not for the weak of heart or light of wallet.

Welp that explain's the poll about the $1000 prototypes.

rolenta

08-24-2004, 03:55 PM

John,

I don't care who releases the game or who had it first. But the fact of the matter is that you did ask me Friday night why I sent the instructions to Matt. You could deny it for all you want. Maybe by that point you already had too much to drink and don't remember. I don't know. But you did ask me that and my mistake was erroniously thinking that it was Joe who had asked me the question.

And if you did see the instructions and saw the Videa copyright, there's nothing wrong with what you did. I know you have taken some of my stuff before and used them as leads. You have all my damn CES press kits and if I didn't trust you or cared what you did with them, I would have asked for them back long ago.

As I explained to Joe and Scott, yes I would like credit if I'm involved in something (even unwittingly). How many times have I seen DP getting credit for all of the Coleco ad sheets that have appeared (particularly 2600 Lady Bug and Turbo) when they were my ad sheets to begin with!

You guys have done an incredible job with CGE and DP and I'll be the first to admit it. I support you guys to the core. I just wish you'd be more honest in what happened. I don't believe in coincidences and if you didn't mention the instructions to me Friday night I would have given it a second thought after reading that you aquired the game. And the thing that really got me thinking was that the Videa name was used. Everyone thought that this was a Fox game and the instructions, which were found three weeks ago, mentioned that it was copyrighted by Videa.

CX2K

08-24-2004, 04:08 PM

Len,

It's a shame that this is starting to drive a wedge between our friendship, but just as you were wrong about Joe asking you, you are wrong about me asking you. I have never seen your instructions. I was never told about your instructions by anyone. You can be convinced all you want that I may have had too much to drink (not likely as I can handle 3 beers) but you are absolutely wrong. Or lying.

I don't give a shit about who gets credit for releasing it. But by saying I asked you about some instructions that I never knew about makes it look like Joe, Sean, and I tried to track down the founders and that is simply not true. Where did I get these instructions? From you? Scott can tell you that he never gave them to me or even told me about them. And you can be sure Matt didn't send them to me.

Bottom line is you're off-base about this just as you were when you said Joe asked you about them. Feel free to call me if you'd rather not continue this here.

John

stonic

08-24-2004, 04:10 PM

That's not the point. AFAIK most people don't like that you sell the carts first and release the ROMs many, many months later.

Exactly how many times does this have to be explained? :angry:
Follow with me here - once all the carts are sold, the roms get released (if they haven't been already :roll: )

And a lot of people are under the (right or wrong) impression that you are having a lot of more ROMs which you are "hoarding" for years before giving the community a chance to play them.

Now, I wonder where some people might get that impression.....oh, I know! Because of comments from people like this:

But maybe DP has finally changed its policy and will release all other ROMs now too.

YOU are part of that problem, whether you want to admit it or not.

I still wish you would have decided a bit more careful. It would have saved us this whole unpleasant discussion

Funny how this whole thread didn't become unpleasant until you started posting here :roll:

Thomas Jentzsch

08-24-2004, 04:10 PM

...
I suppose I can save me any wasted replies here and trust the considerate readers at DP.

John Nada

08-24-2004, 04:13 PM

Put the glasses on!

Sniderman

08-24-2004, 04:19 PM

You know Tempest did spend $1000 for preserving the proto, not even knowing wether it was still working or not. His only hope was, that he may be able to dump it, release the binary and get back some of his money he risked by making carts of it. So what will happen next time? Will he risk his money again? Or will the prototype be bought by someone who wants to keep it only for himself or maybe even get lost completely?

So am I crazy for buying a possibly non-working prototype sight unseen for a grand? Probably. But as we all know when it comes to prototype collecting you have to take some risks. Prototype collecting is not for the weak of heart or light of wallet. Apparently, Matt wasn't too concerned initially whether he recouped his loss or not. In fact, that second line leads me to believe $1,000 ain't nothing to him. He knew the risks, took a shot, and (several weeks of fiddling with the EPROM later) has come up zippo.

I, for one, would be gladdened to see the ROM out there if I was him, simply because then I could try to reverse engineer whatever data HAS been dumped from the damaged proto. He may have an earlier proto. Hell, it may be a later release. Could have different graphics, gameplay, whatever. A second working proto may be just what is needed to get HIS in working condition.

So, I would think, this ROM release would be a good thing for Matt, because now he has something to compare his with as he tries to get it working. Just my opinion....

Jibbajaba

08-24-2004, 04:24 PM

...
I suppose I can save me any wasted replies here and trust the considerate readers at DP.

I don't think you can, because I too am under the impression from reading the entire thread that it was you who soured the tone.

Chris

SoulBlazer

08-24-2004, 04:24 PM

Maybe I'm a outsider, but I don't understand the big deal here.

Someone paid $1000 to buy a prototype that he had NO KNOWLEDGE of was even going to work, with the INTENTION of releasing it to the public. The ROM did'nt work and now he's out the money. Whose fault is that? His.

Joe gets the chance at CGE, unplanned, to secure the rights for the same ROM and releases it to the public. Did he know about the broken protoype? Maybe. Did he release it to spite some people at AA that he had'nt gotten along with? Perhaps, but we're only human.

So the end result is the same -- previously unreleased game gets obtained, legal permission secured, game released to public. In the end, who cares who did it? Let's just be happy we can check it out and play it.

stonic

08-24-2004, 04:28 PM

[quote=superstonic]...

Nice. Way to duck the issues there. Actually, it's probably best if you stop replying to this thread. I think we can all agree you've caused enough commotion for one day.

I suppose I can save me any wasted replies here and trust the considerate readers at DP.

Absolutely. You can probably also trust that your posts won't be deleted, or your account locked. ;)

Jibbajaba

08-24-2004, 04:31 PM

I, too, am an outsider, but it seems to me that if Atari Age had been at CGE, they would have known about this when it happened, and perhaps some kind of joint DP/AA action could have been undertaken to release the meltdown ROM. But AA wasn't at CGE. Why? Could it be because of their animosity towards DP? Seems to me like AA shot themselves in the foot. If you choose to completely divorce yourself from DP's activities then I don't see what makes you think that you have the right to complain about stuff like this.

Chris

Daria

08-24-2004, 04:38 PM

Someone paid $1000 to buy a prototype that he had NO KNOWLEDGE of was even going to work, with the INTENTION of releasing it to the public. The ROM did'nt work and now he's out the money. Whose fault is that? His.

I actually read through that ridiculously long tread at AA (call me seriously bored) and it seems to me Tempest bought the proto not because he wanted to release it to the pubic (although he said he'd be happy to do so) but because he had a soft spot for Meltdown.

Meltdown is a bit special to me since its one of the first unreleased games I saw an ad for (the ad posted at the start of this thread). It looked so interesting (maybe it was the picture of the nuclear explosion), I always wondered what it would play like (the picture really doesn't show much). There was actually a time back in the late 90's that people thought it might have been released (check some of the early 2600 lists, they list it as being ER or UR). So I had more than a passing interesting to the game to begin with.

Then he goes on to talk about how it's hard to kill a cartridge and if it's a real proto it'll be worth the investment. Which has nothing to do with the rom release. If he can get the cart to work he'll still have a very valuable game on his hands regardless of who got the brownie points for releasing the rom.

Not to mention if anyone should be in here raising a stink it's Tempest, not Thomas Jentzsch.

christianscott27

08-24-2004, 05:29 PM

anybody else notice that this has gone on for 3 pages now without a single post about the gameplay? wouldnt it be ironic if all of this was over a crappy game? or wouldnt it somehow overcome all this bickering if it were a great game? for all the fighting over ROMs it doesnt seem like anybody is actually playing it. maybe someone will have to start a seperate thread to actually discuss the game and not the drama.

Kepone

08-24-2004, 05:42 PM

(rant)

As an outsider, I see nothing but people bitching back and forth and throwing more kindling onto the fire between AA and DP. Get over it people. It's embarrassing and it divides the community.

If you people can't solve your personal rivalries, then perhaps you shouldnt' be part of the classic gaming community. You're ruining the fun for those who don't collect prototypes.

Part of that fun is being able to post here and at AA without fear of ridicule or accusations of selling out.

If you don't like AA, that's your opinion. If you don't like DP, that's your opinion too. But, do the rest of us a favor please and keep your fucking opinion to yourself.

(end of rant)

digitalpress

08-24-2004, 06:01 PM

If you don't like AA, that's your opinion. If you don't like DP, that's your opinion too. But, do the rest of us a favor please and keep your fucking opinion to yourself.

I really like neutral guys. You're what it's all about.

*applause*

Someday it will be about the games and only the games. I am still holding out hope.

Kid Ice

08-24-2004, 06:03 PM

ubersaurus

08-24-2004, 06:14 PM

Is this the same Thomas Jentzsch that bad mouths DP every chance he gets over on Atari Age? Didn't he compare DPers to "children" a few months back? Now he has something to say about "the community"? x_x

I could sum up this post, and numerous others here, as such:

[insert flame here] [insert site] [flame] [person] [kitten]

The only people complaining are the people who just like to bitch about things. We get a free rom. Tempest gets the proto that he always wanted, and if you note, he didn't really care if there was another copy out there-he just wanted the game himself. Any repros being made of the game, that's not really our concern, but the concern of the people who own the rights to the game, and the repro-ers. let them work it out. Just enjoy the damn game, or I'll start having to pull out references to the wambulance, french cries, and the God of Whine.

sniperCCJVQ

08-24-2004, 06:16 PM

Thomas Jentzsch

08-24-2004, 06:16 PM

Is this the same Thomas Jentzsch that bad mouths DP every chance he gets over on Atari Age? Didn't he compare DPers to "children" a few months back? Now he has something to say about "the community"? x_x
"DPers"? Plural?

IIRC there is only one member of DP I ever called childish, and this hasn't changed by today.

Maybe you could provide some links? You sound like you can easily provide plenty of them.

Kamino

08-24-2004, 06:22 PM

Jesus christ.
My sympathy to you, joe. for it seems nothing you do can please the high princes on their thrones at AA.
You've done a great thing for the community. In fact, you've done the exact thing that the AA crowd was complaining that you allegedly don't do.
Thanks for the roms, man. they're great.
As for those turning this thread into a drama thread? It's ridiculous!
AA and DP aren't even in the same universe. DP vs AA is as ridiculous as DP vs N-G.com, or AA vs N-G, or DP vs IGN!!! AA is for atari only........
DP covers EVERYTHING that is a console game.
Grow up.

Kepone

08-24-2004, 06:27 PM

My sympathy to you, joe. for it seems nothing you do can please the high princes on their thrones at AA.

We aren't "high princes" on thrones. We're members of the same community, like it or not.

dan2357

08-24-2004, 06:34 PM

After reading through this My head hurts.
What I don't get is, if someone spent all this money in hopes to release the rom or cart someday, Why the Hell would they talk about it before it was done? Thats almost the same as inviting people to go do it themselves.
If GM said they are working on a car that runs on corn oil based on tech gotten from some midwest farmer, Is Ford going to sit around and wait to see if GM can do, or go out and do it themselves?

scooterb23

08-24-2004, 06:35 PM

Only one person should care at all about this proto being released.

Tempest.

Now, while I know he doesn't post here anymore, I'm sure by now he knows what's going on.

And he hasn't said anything negative at all, here or there.

So everyone else trying to make this an issue, shut up.

Now.

ArnoldRimmer83

08-24-2004, 06:37 PM

Doubt it'll help this thread much in the direction its going, but for what its worth I'd like to express my thanks for the releasing the protos to the public Joe. Always makes me happy to see an unreleased game go public, especially when the owners of the game actually give permission for its release. I'm certainly not alone in wishing that sort of thing would happen more often.

Its a pity that some people choose to bitch about the game than be happy its available. It doesn't help to diminish the image of emu users being ungrateful bastards when it comes to proto roms, so I wish these people would give it a rest.

SoulBlazer

08-24-2004, 06:48 PM

I also fully support Joe for what he did, and share the same thoughts the person in the post before me made. :D

GrandAmChandler

08-24-2004, 07:35 PM

I also fully support Joe for what he did, and share the same thoughts the person in the post before me made. :D

I agree totally and whole heartedly with Soul Blazer / Arnold. I don't have cash for repros. It's just not in the budget, so I am glad it has been released, just as AA released those CGE ROMs the other week.

Bad taste? Maybe. Did I get a bunch of games to PLAY out of it? Yup.

I support both AA & DP sites equally. Just as I support ALL gaming events. I believe that someday the classic gaming community will come together. People love drama, that's why this childish arguing always will happen.

Now everyone shut up and play some Meltdown. or E.T. It's your choice.

Phosphor Dot Fossils

08-24-2004, 07:53 PM

Meltdown and Targ, in the same day? Yummy. I'm gonna go play some games now. And if those who are so invested in it must, then as a wise android once said, please continue the petty bickering. The rest of us will be having some fun outta the deal.

Thanks to all involved in bringing these games to us, or even trying to do so. Joe, John, Tempest, Leonard, guys, it doesn't matter - we appreciate ALL of your efforts.

Now let's all sit down and play some games for crissakes already. :)

rolenta

08-24-2004, 08:59 PM

Thanks to all involved in bringing these games to us, or even trying to do so. Joe, John, Tempest, Leonard, guys, it doesn't matter - we appreciate ALL of your efforts

Thanks Earl. I need that after the fiasco I started.

One thing I would like to make clear; if the allegations that I stated are true, I never ever meant to infer that Videa was contacted with the intentions of screwing Tempest. My belief was that John learned that Videa developed games through the instructions, and with his encyclopediac knowledge of who founded what company, decided to contact people who he knew was with Videa to see if they had any other undiscovered software laying around. I don't fault him for that at all if that was indeed the case. Heck, I would have done the same thing if I had put two and two together (which I unfortunately hadn't). But I never believed this to be an attack against Tempest in any way and I'm sorry if anyone construed it that way. John and Joe have done nothing but good things for this hobby and I'm indeed sorry for any ill will that I may have created.

digitalpress

08-24-2004, 09:16 PM

Is this the same Thomas Jentzsch that bad mouths DP every chance he gets over on Atari Age? Didn't he compare DPers to "children" a few months back? Now he has something to say about "the community"? x_x
"DPers"? Plural?

IIRC there is only one member of DP I ever called childish, and this hasn't changed by today.

Maybe you could provide some links? You sound like you can easily provide plenty of them.

You asked.

http://www.atariage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=542310#542310

Sorry Thomas. When you belittle an entire forum community you have to expect that a few people will remember.

Griking

08-24-2004, 11:19 PM

AB Positive

08-24-2004, 11:36 PM

I don't know if this has been mentioned already since I haven't read this entire thread yet but so far what I've read sounds very familiar.

Let me see if I have this right so far,

Tempest purchased a one of a kind prototype for $1000. He purchased it "sight unseen", but he heard about it from a reliable source.

Sound Familiar? (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39012&highlight=)

...and your point is?

[flame suit protection]What does it matter anyway? It's just a 2600 game[/flame suit protection]

had to do it :)

Honestly though, I have a question, since Videa essentially gave Joe and John the rights to the cart and rom, what happens if/when Tempest gets his working and it's at a different dev stage? Can he legally release the rom or does he need permission from the CGE staff since they have the rights?

Regardless, I agree with Sniderman, this rom release can only help Tempest fix his own proto, of a game he loves. Outside forces are making this spill beyond what it really is, a good thing for the community.

I smell a word filter change... Atari Age becomes "Republicans" and Digital Press becomes "Democrats". Philly Classic (or whatever AA's main expo is) becomes "Conservative" and CGE becomes "Liberal".

Why? because it's the same damn thing.

And yes, Sniderman, I made DP the liberal side because I'm a liberal and mostly post here. Sorry man. :P

-AG

Phosphor Dot Fossils

08-24-2004, 11:38 PM

I think I'm gonna put on my Whig and go into hiding now.

Sniderman

08-25-2004, 12:36 AM

And yes, Sniderman, I made DP the liberal side because I'm a liberal and mostly post here. Sorry man. :P

-AG

LOL As I read the post, I was *already* starting to think of some smart-assed comment. Then you had to go ahead and call me on it at the end. Damn, have I become THAT predictable? Sucked the wind right outta my sails on that one.

And to Dutchman 2000 (who shows up and - in a single post - starts asking for "teh romz"), I think two releases met with much angst is enough for today. How's about we wait a while before demanding the release of the rest of the CGE library? Thankyew.

Kim Possible

08-25-2004, 01:19 AM

maybe I don't understand how all of this inter-website politic stuff works, but if this one guy already had a prototype for this game, and then the people at DP found another one, why didn't the DP people contact the other guy and compare notes before going public?

That would save a lot of this "I got here first" nonsense, and would provide a larger knowledge base for the community, no?

In archaeology, when one researcher finds an artifact and another researcher finds an artifact, they usually share findings before releasing their discovery, how is this any different?

Mr.FoodMonster

08-25-2004, 02:04 AM

Is it sad that me, being a fifteen yearold finds this whole thing childish? For christ sakes, we are talking about VIDEOGAMES. This debate is more heated then any political discussion I have ever witnessed. I suppose being a neutral person here is the best thing. Also, joining both communities around a year ago (less here, more at AA) shelters me a bit from the 'history' of all these little personal feuds. I really hope that you guys just someday realize this is stupid and agree to get along. How does Matt feel about this, anyhow?

ubersaurus

08-25-2004, 02:19 AM

Thomas Jentzsch

08-25-2004, 03:06 AM

Sorry Thomas. When you belittle an entire forum community you have to expect that a few people will remember.
Actually I (tried to?) made a joke about AA's political/religious "discussions" (=flames) often being way more childish than anything on DP.

Sorry, If you didn't get it.

Ze_ro

08-25-2004, 03:56 AM

My sympathy to you, joe. for it seems nothing you do can please the high princes on their thrones at AA.
We aren't "high princes" on thrones. We're members of the same community, like it or not.
Responding to trolls is a waste of time.

Kamino: Go back to Vice City and stay out of the drama :P

maybe I don't understand how all of this inter-website politic stuff works, but if this one guy already had a prototype for this game, and then the people at DP found another one, why didn't the DP people contact the other guy and compare notes before going public?
I had the same thought here... it seems to me a lot of the problems here just stem from a lack of communication. If it was well known that Tempest was working on this (which it was), wouldn't it have been sensible to at least toss him an email letting him know that hey, another rom has been found? Perhaps this may be due to prior... *ahem*... difficulties the two parties, I don't know.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that the rom was release one way or the other, but it seems like Tempest put a lot into this, and it must be disheartening to see Joe succeed at it so thoroughly. Tempest has taken it surprisingly well from what I can tell.

Another issue that I'm surprised no one has mentioned is the possibility of making cartridges out of this. I admit I haven't read through all of the AA thread (I tend to avoid forum drama), but I get the impression that Tempest probably would have tried to work with AA in order to have a simultaneous release of the ROM as well as repro carts available from AA's store. With the news of Joe acquiring some rather hazy legal rights, the chance of AA making a repro cart available seems unlikely if not impossible (depending on the terms of this legal agreement). What exactly are your intentions here Joe? Is releasing the rom as far as you plan on taking this, or are there going to be repro carts available at future conventions or what?

--Zero

ianoid

08-25-2004, 03:58 AM

The whole discussion is so stupid and just bugs me because I think that AA has too much to contribute at CGE to be missing, but if that's the way it's got to be, too bad. CGE will grow and get even more kick ass, even without many of folks in the hobby that could make it slightly cooler. You can't please everybody!

Nevertheless, my 2 cents. I'm not sure why there is such a big deal about hoarding ROMs. The owner has the choice to do with it what he pleases. Why weren't there massive uprisings against Esquivel or whoever held the UA (Pleiades, Funky Fish, etc) ROMs before they were sold? That's because everyone was hoping to stay on his good side to get ahold of the games.

Now I think MarcoK is a great guy, and I can't wait to meet him in person, but he as esteemed a member of the AA forums as anyone, and he doesn't release his ROMS routinely- or didn't for a while at least. He had titles in his proto collection that people hadn't even fathomed existed for some time, that weren't released. Is Marco evil for doing what he wanted with his possessions? I really don't think so. Should we have a flame war against him for spending a bunch on some of those items? Probably not. Should he be attacked for keeping even the existance of some of his incredible protos a secret? Definitely not.

Marco deserves to be slandered no more than anyone else who keeps their own possessions to theirself. And the funny thing is, 'DP,' which really only refers to Sean, John and Joe, although somehow this has come to be the entire DP community, doesn't even have much to hoard. You can call John a liar and say that he has more than he claims, but that is just wishful thinking. And not only that, if anyone wants to keep their items secret for eventual release or just forever, that is their own prerogative.

I just find it hard to believe that these guys would intentionally do a disservice to the classic gaming community when they take endless unpaid hours to put together an enormous outing for the hobby. And I would say the AA guys in general are heading in a positive direction, too. I don't know about the nitpicking disputes. I don't really care, unless they are entertaining to hear. Both AA and DP ares trying to head in the same direction- further the hobby, support their contributions without losing loads of money. Perhaps a little competition is healthy in the hobby, but this misdirected animosity is totally unnecessary.

Further, I don't understand why it's a big deal if a game is dumped and posted after it is released. That seems inevitable. I don't see anyone defending the hoards of MAME ROMs no one is profiting from. Cart releases are for nostalgia gamers and collectors, and not specifically for distribution. I never caught wind of Sean getting upset about a ROM being dumped, and I kind of doubt that's what reallly happened, considering that Sean knows releases will be dumped the moment the cart gets home.