Infogrames bearing down on the classic gaming community

[farfel]

The games called "Joustpong" or "Combvat 2" or "Breakout Ultra" just need to change their names. If they do that Atari can't touch them because they are similar, but not copies of, Atari's games. They are original works.

[gleavepaul]

Or maybe now you can accept the 2600 is dead?


Really Just come up with NEW games thats all you need to do..

[Griking]

One difference that stands out to me is that even though some of these games may have been similar, the developers weren't to blatant as to use the original game's name in the title.

[Phosphor Dot Fossils]

As Flack might say, I've gotta put the "old" in "old school" for ya here on a couple of things. :)


Maybe Atari should send C&D letters to every Adventure game out there since the first of that genre was Adventure by Atari.
Actually, I think Atari's Adventure was just a slightly more complicated - but most importantly graphical - implementation of a mainframe game called Hunt The Wumpus. I could be incorrect on the correlation between the two, but I am fairly sure on Wumpus, and possibly even some of the early Scott Adams text adventures, predating Robinett's Adventure. Atari can't lay claim to that genre.


Pong is not an Atari game, btw, it was a game Atari licensed from Magnavox.
Well...yes and no. Bushnell has Alcorn design Pong, and released it as the first Atari arcade product, after seeing an Odyssey demonstration in May of 1972 - and Magnavox sued them. The two companies later settled in a deal that they agreed to refer to as licensing so it'd look good (not that the lawsuit wasn't already a matter of public record), but either way, the "licensing" was after the fact. Part of that license gave Magnavox the first crack at any non-arcade consumer products Atari came up with, and Bushnell and Alcorn kept the home version of Pong under wraps for a whole year as a result. Still, Atari has locked down the rights to its version of Pong since it was the first digital version of the game that kept score...and of course they're going to pursue any use of the name as well.

[sku_u]

Still, Atari has locked down the rights to its version of Pong since it was the first digital version of the game that kept score...and of course they're going to pursue any use of the name as well.

That'll defnitely be an uphill battle for them. There are so many Pong clones out there, many that actually use the name Pong in the title that if they haven't lost exclusivity a long long time ago, I'd be very surprised.

[SoulBlazer]

Am I the only one reading all this going 'meh'? :o

Been done before. Companies protecting rights, some people whine, life goes on, blah, blah, blah. Been there, done that. Move along people. :)

[gleavepaul]

spot on :roll:

[chadtower]

Am I the only one reading all this going 'meh'? :o

Been done before. Companies protecting rights, some people whine, life goes on, blah, blah, blah. Been there, done that. Move along people. :)

Spoken by someone who has never poured a year's worth of extremely harsh coding into a labor of love with no chance of ever making any money off of it. While what Atari has done here is legal and proper, it still sucks to the people who've poured their soul into these homebrews and are extremely proud of their creations.

[Kim Possible]

One difference that stands out to me is that even though some of these games may have been similar, the developers weren't to blatant as to use the original game's name in the title.

True, but with games like Joust Pong and Adventure II, they named them thusly out of a love and respect for what has come before. Reverence if you will. They had no intention of "cashing it" on a popular name (well popular 25 years ago...)

That is what Infogrames is stepping on, a clear love and reverence for classic Atar stuff. For them its just $$$$, there is no love, no reverence. They don't "get it" the way classic gamers do. That is why people are so mad. Homebrews aren't hurting anybody. If Cafeman releases Adventure II, nothing is going to happen outside of 200 people (tops) getting to play an excellent game that shows respect for a previous 2600 game. Nothing. Infogrames will not be hurt one bit, and Cafeman will not become the richest man alive. But Infogrames can't leave well enough alone.

[Flack]

One difference that stands out to me is that even though some of these games may have been similar, the developers weren't to blatant as to use the original game's name in the title.

True, but with games like Joust Pong and Adventure II, they named them thusly out of a love and respect for what has come before. Reverence if you will. They had no intention of "cashing it" on a popular name (well popular 25 years ago...)

That is what Infogrames is stepping on, a clear love and reverence for classic Atar stuff. For them its just $$$$, there is no love, no reverence. They don't "get it" the way classic gamers do. That is why people are so mad. Homebrews aren't hurting anybody. If Cafeman releases Adventure II, nothing is going to happen outside of 200 people (tops) getting to play an excellent game that shows respect for a previous 2600 game. Nothing. Infogrames will not be hurt one bit, and Cafeman will not become the richest man alive. But Infogrames can't leave well enough alone.

Unfortunately, the law doesn't deal with love and reverence -- it's pretty black and white. I can see why people are upset, but the bottom line is that people are getting mad because Atari is now enforcing what they could and should have been enforcing all along. To me, it's the same as when people bitched and moaned when Napster went down and they could no longer steal music. And believe me, I bitched and moaned for a long time when that happened.

If Joust Pong and Adventure II WERE made to "cash in" on people's nostalgia, memories and feelings that are attached to old Atari games. If they weren't they wouldn't have those names. And unfortunately, people don't have the right to use other people's intellectual property, no more than I can go home and film a sequal to Star Wars and try and sell it.

[Nature Boy]

Hmmm, then I guess Atari should be Suing the pants off the creators of both Arkanoid and The revenge of doh then. Maybe they should also sue all those cheap ass video touch machines manufacturers while they're at it that have dervatives of Pong and Breakout on them as well as the 1,820,000 sites that use pong or a derivative as part of their site.

Does Atari not hold the copyright to the name Pong and Breakout? And how does the name Arkanoid violate that copyright?

A little foresight should make you realize that using "Haunted House" in a title makes as much sense as calling it "Resident Evil" - you're asking for trouble.

I think you can create an unofficial sequal like HH2, call it something like Scary Mansion 2, and they wouldn't be able to touch you.

[sku_u]

Hmmm, then I guess Atari should be Suing the pants off the creators of both Arkanoid and The revenge of doh then. Maybe they should also sue all those cheap ass video touch machines manufacturers while they're at it that have dervatives of Pong and Breakout on them as well as the 1,820,000 sites that use pong or a derivative as part of their site.

Does Atari not hold the copyright to the name Pong and Breakout? And how does the name Arkanoid violate that copyright?



Atari was objecting to the entire game in all these cases, not just the name. If it were just a name issue, Castle Crisis which is similar to, but not the same as Warlords would still be available in the store for sale, wouldn't it?

The name Arkanoid doesn't bear any similarity to Breakout. The games, however ARE very similar. That is why I mentioned Arkanoid as an example.

[digitalpress]

@sku_u: who at Atari did you talk to? I want to start making phone calls to better understand their position but I don't know who has already been spoken to.

[gleavepaul]

Am I the only one reading all this going 'meh'? :o

Been done before. Companies protecting rights, some people whine, life goes on, blah, blah, blah. Been there, done that. Move along people. :)

Spoken by someone who has never poured a year's worth of extremely harsh coding into a labor of love with no chance of ever making any money off of it. While what Atari has done here is legal and proper, it still sucks to the people who've poured their soul into these homebrews and are extremely proud of their creations.

Sorry dont mean this to sound bad....

Is it all your own code or have you borrowed code? If its all your own then carry on dude, If you borrowed code then :o

[chadtower]

Sorry dont mean this to sound bad....

Is it all your own code or have you borrowed code? If its all your own then carry on dude, If you borrowed code then :o

Most of the homebrewers are professional software developers and as such fully understand the issues with borrowing code. I highly doubt any of the original games took specific code from Atari properties.

[Nature Boy]

Atari was objecting to the entire game in all these cases, not just the name. If it were just a name issue, Castle Crisis which is similar to, but not the same as Warlords would still be available in the store for sale, wouldn't it?

Is it similar in that it's a graphical or some other sort of hack or just similar game play that was created entirely on it's own? I don't know the game so I don't know the answer.

If the author hacked the original game then they might as well have called it Warlords 2 - you can't reverse engineer something, modify it a bit, and then *sell* it without possibly incurring the wrath of the original author. And even if you don't sell it you can get yourself in trouble.

If it's it's own creation the author could probably stand up for him/herself and defend it. This is where it sucks to be the little guy, because Atari really could outspend you in litigation. But I think you *have* to think of that before you even start a project like this.

If you ask me Atari could be *much* more heavy handed than issuing a C&D. They could start suing for back royalties (and *then* you'd have me on board with them behaving irrationality). But they won't.

The idea that they're "attacking" the retro gaming community is ludicrous. They're just protecting their copyrights. If they let things go because of some touchy/feely 'good of the community' stuff they'd get taken advantage of - not necessarily by us but by *somebody*. And *then* we'd be criticising them for mismanaging their assets!

[ApolloBoy]

AS for the DP / AA fights I dont know who or how it started but its a bit petty I thought we were all grown ups here? O_O

Yes, I agree. Fuck this stupid AA/DP war. It should be DEAD.

[farfel]

Sorry dont mean this to sound bad....

Is it all your own code or have you borrowed code? If its all your own then carry on dude, If you borrowed code then :oMost of the homebrewers are professional software developers and as such fully understand the issues with borrowing code. I highly doubt any of the original games took specific code from Atari properties.


Than why vcare? Continue your Original Works and give them away (or sell them) at classic gaming conventions.

[Kim Possible]

If Joust Pong and Adventure II WERE made to "cash in" on people's nostalgia, memories and feelings that are attached to old Atari games. If they weren't they wouldn't have those names.

No, they were given those names because the people who made them loved the originals and wanted to add their own chapter to the story. Iin homebrews, there is absolutely NO cashing in at all. Few homebrews ever sell enough to make any profit.

But you are right, the law is black and white (until the lawyers go to work) and it has no care for love or reverence, and that is cool. But sadly, Infogrames has no care for love or reverence either, like any typically capitalist regime, all they care for is the bottom line.

[Griking]

No, they were given those names because the people who made them loved the originals and wanted to add their own chapter to the story. Iin homebrews, there is absolutely NO cashing in at all. Few homebrews ever sell enough to make any profit.

A huge profit may not be made but people are selling these things which in my mind makes them more than a hobby or labor of love.

[Kim Possible]

I see your point, but I think I differ in opinion. I collect 2600 games, and occasionally will sell off some of my doubles and extras. I make a TINY bit of profit off of it, but I still just consider it a hobby. I see this issue in a similar way.

But its cool, I understand your point, and it makes sense.

[GamerTheGreek]

im surprised that they didnt come after the people who got a copy of combat 2 at the CGE in 2001. but i kinda feel their pain since you know infogrames just use the atari name and make games that have nothing to do with the atari legacy . and then make bad greatest hits. ( yes we know they are great why do you think we are working on remastering them for other gamers to play). but would be nice if somehow infograms would be like gee a 20 yr old system im sure we will NEVER go back to making atari 2600s so why matter about things. MAYBE they can tap into the old collectors world. Maybe if you email the company and be like ok you haulted our games. maybe you since you own the rights want to finish the games up for us and put a fair price on it wed buy it. that could work in my book. and then the homebrewers can make games that are really new

[Kepone]

Bah.. everyone knew it was someone else's property all along anyway.

But no one anticipated Infogrames coming on full force like this.


If I may, I'd like to send out a call for unity among the classic gaming community. I don't care if AA and DP have had issues in the past. If you can, please have an open mind about what is going on now. This move by Infogrames doesn't just affect AtariAge. It could end up affecting every single person in this hobby, trickling from the programmers/website owners, etc all the way down to ordinary folks who enjoy these games.

[Kamino]

Bah.. everyone knew it was someone else's property all along anyway.

But no one anticipated Infogrames coming on full force like this.


If I may, I'd like to send out a call for unity among the classic gaming community. I don't care if AA and DP have had issues in the past. If you can, please have an open mind about what is going on now. This move by Infogrames doesn't just affect AtariAge. It could end up affecting every single person in this hobby, trickling from the programmers/website owners, etc all the way down to ordinary folks who enjoy these games.


I still do not see WHERE the animosity started. I'll admit i made some anti-AA statements when it appeared to me that AA was causing problems in my own backyard; i must apologise for such statements, having now gotten the facts, and once again being at a total loss for reason WHY DP and AA cannot grow the hell up and at least be civil with each other as members of the classic gaming community.

[Kepone]

Shit happens. People disagree. It's part of life.

But if other companies decided to take the same approach as Infogrames, would there still be a classic gaming community left? :o

[punkoffgirl]

Bah.. everyone knew it was someone else's property all along anyway.

But no one anticipated Infogrames coming on full force like this.


If I may, I'd like to send out a call for unity among the classic gaming community. I don't care if AA and DP have had issues in the past. If you can, please have an open mind about what is going on now. This move by Infogrames doesn't just affect AtariAge. It could end up affecting every single person in this hobby, trickling from the programmers/website owners, etc all the way down to ordinary folks who enjoy these games.

My comment had N O T H I N G to do with the fact that it's AA that recieved a C&D. I would say the same even if it was DP, which has in fact recieved such messages before, I do believe. Perhaps you didn't mean it that way, but when my comment was quoted with your particular comment following, it gives that impression.

[zmweasel]

Shit happens. People disagree. It's part of life.

But if other companies decided to take the same approach as Infogrames, would there still be a classic gaming community left? :o

Why would the classic-gaming community go away if other companies decide to protect their copyrights by asking homebrewers and hackers to C&D their well-meaning but clear-cut infringement?

-- Z.

[Flack]

No offense guys, but this thread's getting a little thick in the drama department.

All this stuff about affecting the future of retrogaming is a bit silly. All that's happened is that people who have been breaking the law and flying under Atari's radar up until this point in time have now been noticed. You can justify it until you're blue in the face; the fact remains that it's infringing on Atari's copyrights, and they are well within their legal boundaries to make them stop.

Is it petty? Sure. Is it ridiculous? You bet. The profits from most of those homebrews probably wouldn't pay a month's rent.

This whole thing is like getting a speeding ticket for going 1mph over the posted speed limit. It's stupid, but technically it's still illegal.

[Leo_A]

Thanks for pointing that out, but I don't think anyone has disputed that fact here or at AtariAge, other than the usual ones that think just because something's old means all legal rights to something must've expired long ago.

[mos6507]

Back then when the hobby was flying completely under the radar there were countless threads on RGVC rationalizing ROM downloads and heaping lavish praise on proto and hack cart releases. Now that the party is drawing to a close it's selectively pointing a holier-than-thou finger and saying "they are getting what they deserve"?

[Kepone]

Bah.. everyone knew it was someone else's property all along anyway.

But no one anticipated Infogrames coming on full force like this.


If I may, I'd like to send out a call for unity among the classic gaming community. I don't care if AA and DP have had issues in the past. If you can, please have an open mind about what is going on now. This move by Infogrames doesn't just affect AtariAge. It could end up affecting every single person in this hobby, trickling from the programmers/website owners, etc all the way down to ordinary folks who enjoy these games.

My comment had N O T H I N G to do with the fact that it's AA that recieved a C&D. I would say the same even if it was DP, which has in fact recieved such messages before, I do believe. Perhaps you didn't mean it that way, but when my comment was quoted with your particular comment following, it gives that impression.

Blame that on my lack of cohesion when posting now. I probably should have started a separate post with my opinion and I apologize if I missed your point.

:embarrassed:

[Ed Oscuro]

Back then when the hobby was flying completely under the radar there were countless threads on RGVC rationalizing ROM downloads and heaping lavish praise on proto and hack cart releases.
That's also (supposedly) illegal, but it's really a separate issue - all but the hack cart releases you mention fall under emulation, and last time I checked nobody at AA or DP was selling ROMs for profit - not a single one, person or ROM that is! LOL

Money changes hands when a hack cart is sold, but ROM downloads = potential loss of profits if (and when) Atari decides to rerelease games. Simple as that. As for the emulation "party" being over, it's not. The IDSA and other gaming industry terriers have been on task for some years now, and haven't managed to eliminate all ROM download sites.

[Axe]

Um, Ive seen a couple of posts along the lines: "Infograms should sell the homebrews themselves". :-P Im (working on) asking Sega to do much more than that: bow down to the people who have the potential to make "incredibly enhanced" classic remakes (primarily adding tons of multiplay).

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=436774#436774

[Flack]

Um, Ive seen a couple of posts along the lines: "Infograms should sell the homebrews themselves". :-P Im (working on) asking Sega to do much more than that: bow down to the people who have the potential to make "incredibly enhanced" classic remakes (primarily adding tons of multiplay).

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=436774#436774

And again I have to ask, have you checked out the SegaAges releases? They are "incredibly enhanced" classic remakes.

[Axe]

I downloaded a movie where the first level of (Ages) Golden Axe was completed. My initial reaction: its like warping Mortal Kombat 1/2 to the one on X-box, primarily (on first looks) shifted the 2d sprites to polygon work and special effects. Maybe polygoners will prefer this greatly over the old material.

Tell me if this is correct. If sprites and polygons are to be compared by those that appreciate sprites, it could be said that the sprite appreciator is highly allergic to special effects and bemoans over how polygon-polygon interactions dont feel nearly as "smooth" and sprite-sprite interactions, generally speaking.

My idea of incredible enhancement includes creating 8 player (1000 player orchestrable) versions of fight along games. I presume this can be done since its easy to get 2x2 = 4 sega screens on the PC (PC res = 1024x768 = 4x 512x384), processors can handle a game needing 4 interconnected segas' worth of computing.

Here's the basic idea of 1000 player orchestration. Imagine a campaign, 200 6 player games might be running at the same time, somehow intricated into some bigger game plot.

Intrication: whener a 6 player group finishes a stage, they might get to spend some time at chat taverns, buy merchandise and then to chose their next parters. Players would have the option of quiting and joining in between such stages as well.

I hardly know whats going on these days, didnt know about ages. I need info, and later on, hard data.

[Axe]

Hmm, maybe Sega has been decently active, and its Infograms that I should be writing to. Doesnt change much as Ive just started. 1000 playering is easy, galaxy scacle space invaders. LOL

Tis a bit sad there are only some games that can be 1000 playered: not much can be done for good ol fishing, basketball etc. But still, cross country frog(er) swarming sounds good. :P

[Nature Boy]

Back then when the hobby was flying completely under the radar there were countless threads on RGVC rationalizing ROM downloads and heaping lavish praise on proto and hack cart releases. Now that the party is drawing to a close it's selectively pointing a holier-than-thou finger and saying "they are getting what they deserve"?

I don't think anybody is doing that, although I suppose I could see it being construed as that.

We *all* know/knew which ROMs were legal and which weren't. I know I grabbed everything I could before a day like today happened, and I know I'm not the only person who thought that way.

Holier than thou? No way. But the owner of the copyright deserves to do what they wish with their product. If you're a homebrewer you should become *very* familiar with copyrights, as you wouldn't want Atari taking your game and making either it or a sequel. I guess I'm just not a fan of people seeing everything so one sided.

zmweasel said it best: The community isn't going to disapper just because somebody is protecting their copyrights. If anything this is a lesson for us all.