Infogrames bearing down on the classic gaming community

[sku_u]

Hey all,

Just wanted to give everyone a heads up that Infogrames (Atari) is requesting Atari2600.com and Atariage take down all hacks and homebrews that may have been based on one of their intellectual properties. This has been a huge blow to the programming community, expecially for the 5200 where Haunted House II, Combat II, Castle Crisis, Project Airworld and Project Tempest have all been halted. This is truly a sad day for the classic gaming community and especially for those who've devoted so much of their time and energy to keeping this hobby fresh and interesting.

Here's a few links if any of you want some further reading on the subject:

http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?s=97e017558eb00992f461bf0d6aa3ba47&threadid=415307

http://www.atariage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=56381

http://www.atariage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=57357

:(

While I as many of you can understand why they'd want hacks pulled, pulling homebrews is senseless and puts a huge damper on things in the world of classic gaming. Homebrew authors help keep these old game systems alive.

[TRM]

I like Infogrames as a company. Some of the people there, from their French division, have helped me out numerous times.

[TheRedEye]

Well, good. Maybe "homebrewers" will start actually, you know, making new games now.

[Ed Oscuro]

Hate to say it, but RedEye put down the first thought to form in the back of my mind.

Granted, working on hacks of extant games is one way classic game coders can get their start...but there's all sorts of non-Infogrames-owned titles out there, right?

It's a shame that they thought it was a big issue, but those folks are in this for a business. Obviously, they know when to tread lightly, and when to put the foot down on threatening operations x_x

[kainemaxwell]

This sucks hard. Shame decent homebrews like that won't make it out to people now.

[Ed Oscuro]

They will if the coders just change the name and...oops, I don't want to give away my TRADE SECRETS! O_O

[RCM]

wow, that sucks. I can't believe that they would even give a shit.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

[Kamino]

this totally sucks Sku_u........fill us in here. Are "Original" homebrews such as Skeleton+, Jammed, and This Planet Sucks still going to be available? or is this the death of all homebrew for atari systems?

[sku_u]

this totally sucks Sku_u........fill us in here. Are "Original" homebrews such as Skeleton+, Jammed, and This Planet Sucks still going to be available? or is this the death of all homebrew for atari systems?

As of now, they're going after titles they think resemble titles they own the rights to. Where they draw the line is anyone's guess. Here's what's gone in the way of homebrews so far (I'm not counting hacks as that's a whole separate debate:

Joust Pong
Mondo Pong
Double Breakout
Castle Crisis
Haunted House II
Combat II
Klax

Projects that are no more:

Swordquest Airworld
Project Tempest

There are also quite a few homebrews that are up in the air and some that are trying to change the name of the game and storyline in hopes Atari doesn't also come after them.

[Griking]

Its a shame that it happened but I'm also surprised that it didn't happen a lot sooner then it did.

I'm sure that home brewing will go on. Authors will just have to get a little more creative and design games based on new ideas instead of making sequels and hacks of existing games.

[Phosphor Dot Fossils]

I think this also frees up these talented code maestros to concentrate on what is far more important:
MORE ODYSSEY2 HOMEBREWS!





LOL

Seriously though, I'm not sure what to think of this. I don't like how Infogrames/Atari is going about it, but it may be worth chilling out to wait to see what they do next. Handling things calmly might create an atmosphere where we could get the hacks back at some point; running around screaming for blood will probably create a permanent bad taste in Atari's mouth for the hardcore retrogaming community.

But hey, that's just my take on it. Your mileage may vary. Objects in mirror are closer than they appear.

[Kim Possible]

Well, good. Maybe "homebrewers" will start actually, you know, making new games now.

Which tells me that you've not been playing many recent homebrews. Almost all of the releases in the past few years have been totally original games or never-before-ported games.

[scooterb23]

Why handle things in calmly when going off half-cocked is so much more fun? :P

For my part, I just think back to all those times I kept reading "WOW, wouldn't it be cool if Atari came back and made a new system that let us play Atari 2600 games?"

Be careful what you wish for...

[swlovinist]

I believe that infogames has a good point. If people(and websites) are making hacks and homebrews and are not going through the right people to get the rights to do it, then well I dont feel bad for them at all. I am all for homebrews, but I think it has gotten a little out of hand with the hacking, espically of games that are owned by companies that are still around(cough cough Taito). I dont really expect to get alot of people on this site to agree with me, but dam, making a game is one thing, hacking the shit out of a game and or releasing someone elses property rights on even a dead system is wrong...espically if even 1 cent of profit is made.

[Kim Possible]

nah, I agree with you on the Hacks issue. Profits made off of hacks is pretty much wrong and illegal if the hacked property is owned by someone else. But to claim that yoiu can't name your game "Adventure II" because a company already owns a game named "adventure?" that's bordering on bullshit.

[Iron Draggon]

Well I still say that if it really bothers the original copyright owners so damned much then they should just release the fucking games themselves instead of being such assholes about it! These hacks are only happenening because the stupid assed copyright owners won't do it for the fans themselves, so I say the best way to resolve the problem is to do what the goddamn fans want!

[Phosphor Dot Fossils]

But they're aiming at a wider audience than just the fan base - an audience that wants the games to resemble what they remember, not some newfangled fan-made hack.

Or are we talking about two different things here?

[Ed Oscuro]

nah, I agree with you on the Hacks issue. Profits made off of hacks is pretty much wrong and illegal if the hacked property is owned by someone else. But to claim that yoiu can't name your game "Adventure II" because a company already owns a game named "adventure?" that's bordering on bullshit.
That's true! When you start adding graphics from the old game, though...well...

But I agree, much of the new stuff is just as good as what Atari put out back in the day, and it's always impressive what some folks working at their own pace can put out, as opposed to the time-starved Atari employee working off 4 hours of sleep a night to finish some damned game that will give him a bad rep forevermore :o

[Griking]

Haunted House II was a direct sequel of Haunted House. There was an Atari 5200 sequel of Adventure coming out as well, not to mention Super Pacman and Jr Pacman. Its obvious that the designers of these games weren't even trying to hide the fact that they were blatantly ignoring copyrights.

I've also seen a bunch of pirates of games such as Tapper and Spy Hunter for the Atari 5200 on ebay. The Spy Hunter one even used the same label art as the current PS2 version of Spy Hunter. I'm sure that these examples weren't the primary reason for Atari to do what they're doing but I doubt it helped any either.

[Ed Oscuro]

And folks get mad at me when I start badgering them about putting incorrect copyright/trademark info on games...it sucks, but you have to be really careful when doing these things. Even if you do everything right, the suits will sometimes still try to crush you with threatening letters :/

Don't mean that to sound like an "I told you so," because I'm sure I wasn't the first to be worried about this.

Gosh, what a horrible thing to kick off VCS Veek with...

[zmweasel]

Well I still say that if it really bothers the original copyright owners so damned much then they should just release the fucking games themselves instead of being such assholes about it! These hacks are only happenening because the stupid assed copyright owners won't do it for the fans themselves, so I say the best way to resolve the problem is to do what the goddamn fans want!

Atari/Infogrames IS re-releasing much of its 2600 catalog via Atari Anthology (on PS2/Xbox; a PC version is already out) and Atari Flashback. Hence, it's getting more serious about protecting its IPs.

-- Z.

[Brian_Provinciano]

I'm a HUGE fan of original homebrew games. I believe that homebrew sequels to existing games, or games based off existing characters, with all your own code/graphics/audio are great! As well, those hacks of Super Mario games for the NES with all new levels, that are an entirely different game are great (although they do infringe using the existing engine, they are distributed as patches, which is fine).

However, I'm not a fan at all of these hacks of existing games, where an original game gets graphics/text/audio/colours changed and someone tries to release it as their "homebrew" game. It's not homebrew, it's a hack. Granted, a few of the hacks are great improvements over the original game, and if they are released as patches, without the ROM, that's fine. However, I can completely understand these companies going after such things... when people are actually selling cartridges with these "homebrew" games on them. The are no less pirates than all of those "Super Mario 74" hacks for the Famicom in Asia and such. When the copyright is expired and/or the author gives permission, it would be fine, but clearly this company isn't giving permission, so that's that.

[opcode]

They will if the coders just change the name and...oops, I don't want to give away my TRADE SECRETS! O_O

Do you mean change the game title? It didn't work. Castle Crisis was pulled out even if it wasn't called Warlords.
So you say homebrews will survive... Yeah, they will for sure. But probably we are going back to the canibalized carts and inkjet printed labels era. Without all those hacks and repros titles there isn't enough money to justify investiment on completely new games. Remember a hack like Pac-Man Arcade was able to sell more copies than any original homebrew, probably even StarFire, one of the best original titles out there. Repros are among the best sellers too. Heck, I sold 3 times more SIC copies than Sky Jaguar. If it wasn't for SIC, there wouldn't be Sky Jaguar or any other MSX game. And I don't see any indication if I had made an original game it would have sold more than Sky Jaguar. This community works this way, estabished titles sell a lot more than original ones. So matters aren't so simple. Even if it doesn't affect me (I am not currently dealing with any Infogrames property, and even if I was, I wouldn't give a shit about them), I want to stay solidary with this community.
I can see a million ways Infogrames could work with homebrewers for mutual benefit, but since they chose the opposite path, I don't see another alternative beside going against them. For start I will boycott their products. (But then, why worry about their slotless Flashback thing when there are much better things coming...)

Eduardo

[digitalpress]

I presume this has already been attempted based on the "pitchforks and torches" philosophy this thread is turning into, so can someone point me to a thread or explain in some detail where a homebrewer has talked or attempted to discuss this with Atari? I mean I really hope that a serious effort has been made to work this out before condemning the company - otherwise you're shooting yourself in the foot. You'd be surprised how helpful persistent negotiaiton can be.

And trust me - if you know there's something in it for BOTH parties and you can properly show them that, they'll talk.

So before I jump on the anti-Atari bandwagon, can someone explain to me what's been done so far to work this out WITH Atari?

[opcode]

So before I jump on the anti-Atari bandwagon, can someone explain to me what's been done so far to work this out WITH Atari?

Hi Joe,

Unfortunatey I can't. It's Albert's sole responsability, since it was his store which got threatened. But considering the amount of material he is loosing (from unsold items), it isn't unreasonable to assume he tried to negociate. Though I can't give you any specifics since I really don't know.
My opinion is Infogrames could have negociated if there was a bit of good will from their part. Afterall, those were games for long dead platforms, and since Infogrames isn't going to start re-release cartridges, there is much of a competition. Beside, you know, how many copies of a single VCS title one is able to sell? 200? 300?
And I am sure homebrewers could offer something in trade, like free advertising or even giving Infogrames the right to include their games in future VCS compilations. Activision has worked like that with our community and so far everything has been fine.
Maybe the problem is too much exposure. Maybe we should go underground again. I suppose a lot of hardcore fans will do that till this retro fever is over...

Eduardo

[Dan Iacovelli]

I stated this on AA but I put here too.
When I First statted moving the Jagfest issues of the atari zone to
cafepress.com. luckly some how they got it worked out so the jagfest issues can be sold at cafepress.

[digitalpress]

I stated this on AA but I put here too.
When I First statted moving the Jagfest issues of the atari zone to
cafepress.com. luckly some how they got it worked out so the jagfest issues can be sold at cafepress.

You worked that out with Atari? That's good news - see... there IS hope.

[digitalpress]

Maybe the problem is too much exposure. Maybe we should go underground again. I suppose a lot of hardcore fans will do that till this retro fever is over...

Wow.

I couldn't disagree with you more, Eduardo. We can't just give up just like that, especially if we don't know the facts. Which I'm eagerly awaiting to become enlightened with :)

[PhoeniX]

I think that it is really unfortunate and myopic of inforgames to take this action; but such stupidity is pretty much standard opperating procedure for Ataris' many owners. Ever since Warner originally bought Atari, moves have been made by corporate execs who don't understand or even care about the gaming culture. Poor decisions have been continually made with Atari, when it started to faulter in the wake of the video game industry crash a perception was implanted that has stuck with it, the sale of the Atari (home division) to the tramiel family galvanized the corporate perception of Atari as just a name. From then and until now Atari has not been a place where creative people put out a good product, but instead--all to often a label/name to slap on a lousy product. The owners of Atari have continually tried to appeal to a sense of nostalgia and memories of better times in order to sell games. The efforts of Warner and subsiquent owners JTS, Hasbro and now Infogames have destroyed the credibility of the once-videogame giant.

The great irony in all this, the Atari culture which has continued to thrive despite the misteps of its corporate entities has been kept alive by GAMERS, people who remember the good times and keep them alive through new content. It is this culture that in my mind keeps the name Atari close enough to the social consciousness for current products like the multi-game in controller to be successful. Atari... Infogames is shooting itself in the foot by alienating its fan base. There move is of course being done under the auspices of protecting 'valuable' intelectual properties, but they ignore the fact that the fan culture does more good than harm... Honestly, does the existence/distribution of games like Combat 2 hurt Infogame's sales one iota? NO, I would even speculate it helps them.

ATARI IS DEAD... at least as a force in gaming, any console credibility it had was killed by mismanagement of the Jaguar/Lynx. Any game credibility was killed by Hasbro. This obituary is now footnoted by Infogames, stomping and pissing on Atari's grave through the use of its name on crap like Test Drive: eve of destruction, and now a slap in the face to Atari most ardent supporters.

[TheSmirk]

Well, good. Maybe "homebrewers" will start actually, you know, making new games now.

Thank you.
Damn right.
I'm all for taking things further and all, but after the last PhillyClassic I was pretty disturbed. There was a ton of "shovelware", hey heres game "x" with two sprite changes and a purty new box and manual, $30 please! *cha-ching*

As we were leaving, I was waxing-nostalgic the days where you'd be looking forward to THE homebrew that came out that year, now were just bombarded with hacks.

Ah, well....

[Brian_Provinciano]

What irks me the most is companies which buy other defunct companies, then try to be the powerhouse, suing and such over the old company's properties which they now own. It's like companies that decide to sue everyone over patents they own all day to make their profits, rather than innovating with something new.

[Kim Possible]

Thank you.
Damn right.
I'm all for taking things further and all, but after the last PhillyClassic I was pretty disturbed. There was a ton of "shovelware", hey heres game "x" with two sprite changes and a purty new box and manual, $30 please! *cha-ching*

As we were leaving, I was waxing-nostalgic the days where you'd be looking forward to THE homebrew that came out that year, now were just bombarded with hacks.

Ah, well....

Man, I have NO idea what you are talking about. Did we go to the same show? Sure Atariage and Packrat VG were selling some hacks, but they mainly had previously unreleased prototypes, original homebrews and other NEW material. That new material greatly outnumbered the hacks that were available.

[Dan Iacovelli]

I stated this on AA but I put here too.
When I First statted moving the Jagfest issues of the atari zone to
cafepress.com. luckly some how they got it worked out so the jagfest issues can be sold at cafepress.

You worked that out with Atari? That's good news - see... there IS hope.

yeah cafepress.com sent me three e-mails every time I tried to put the final fest issue and then with the first fest issue saying that the images were infringing on the copyrights. I sent an e-mail to atari (got no reply from them btw) and Isent a simlar e-mail to CP(cafepress) stating how I had no trouble with Atari and Atari/Hasbro.
after one week I found out that everything was ok (but to be safe I waited
a month to see if it was still good and it was)
if anybody wants to see the cafepress.com store I'm talking about
it's http://www.cafepress.com/avcnews

[vintagegamecrazy]

TheRedEye wrote:
Well, good. Maybe "homebrewers" will start actually, you know, making new games now.


Thank you.
Damn right.
I'm all for taking things further and all, but after the last PhillyClassic I was pretty disturbed. There was a ton of "shovelware", hey heres game "x" with two sprite changes and a purty new box and manual, $30 please! *cha-ching*

As we were leaving, I was waxing-nostalgic the days where you'd be looking forward to THE homebrew that came out that year, now were just bombarded with hacks.

Ah, well....

AMEN Brother!

I don't blame Atari one bit for coming down on hackers so hard, its PIRACY, and no different from what we hated so much 20+ years ago. They should seek copyright permission, and I'm sure it would be granted. As much as Atari is right, they need to come off easier with the classic gaming community, we, afterall brought this resurgance of classic gaming back to nowdays. By being too brash Atari will scare everyone off and will make enemies. There is a way everyone can benefit mutually. Atari should demand copyright permission, and then inforce it when its not followed, but instead of just tearing everything down, they should say we want to advertise on homebrewer's sites, or work out an agreement where they can sell their games on Atari's website. Atari would make profit and revenue without ever having to carry any inventory, they would receive a kickback from each game and if they didn't sell very well Atari wouldn't have any inventory that they lost any cash on. I'm not saying that that scenerio is the law but it is an example of possibly a way to mutually work things out. Sure hackers and homebrewers will have to adjust, but they need to play by the rules. Let's wait it out for now and see what happens in the next few weeks/months.

[slip81]

Why would Infogrames care so much? It's not like homebrews are making a ton of money for anyone, they're mainly done as practice and to create fun games for a system that would otherwise be dead.

[zmweasel]

Why would Infogrames care so much? It's not like homebrews are making a ton of money for anyone, they're mainly done as practice and to create fun games for a system that would otherwise be dead.

Because Atari/Infogrames is exploiting its IPs in a big way, and because some hackers and homebrewers are violating Atari's copyrights and profiting from Atari's IPs. The only surprise is that Atari/Infogrames didn't crack down sooner.

-- Z.

[punkoffgirl]

Bah.. everyone knew it was someone else's property all along anyway.

[Sniderman]

Apparently, the problems AA is having is *not* the fact that it has one of - if not THE - largest Atari-focused web site on the 'Net - easily found by anyone with a minimum of research....

It's not because it actively puts itself, its activities, and its wares out there at conventions, in news releases, in Internet announcements, and the like....

It's not because it's the FOURTH site that pops up on a Google search when just the word "atari" is punched in....

No, they are having ALL of these problems because - some would have you believe - Digital Press turned them into Infogrammes.

From AA posts:


I hardly think there is an air of cloak and dagger or outright dime dropping, but then again we've seen the supposed "wars" of sites and who knows... someone bitter and childish just might've been stupid enough to hurt it for all of us.

Stirring the pot... It does seem a little coincidental that this would happen only a few months after tension between the AA camp and the Digital Press camp, however.

You know , this would be an opportune time to rally all classic gamers together under a banner of setting aside our differences for a common goal. Instead, some would - STILL - rather find conspiracies were they don't exist and cause trouble when it truly isn't necessary, needed, or remotely constructive to the problem at hand.

Building bridges is so damn important at this time. Some folks, I guess, would rather find a scapegoat than find a solution to the problem.

Criminy. :roll:

[sku_u]

I presume this has already been attempted based on the "pitchforks and torches" philosophy this thread is turning into, so can someone point me to a thread or explain in some detail where a homebrewer has talked or attempted to discuss this with Atari?

Here's one that's a bit disheartening:

http://www.atariage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=58014&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=100

Read Packratvg's post. Like you, I'm hoping an agreement can be reached, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Fuyukaze]

To play devils advocate, they may have simply wished to protect their copyrights. While many here think there is no profitability for the games in question, if they are simply mods of original Atari games the company has a responsibility to protect the copy rights. Either they do that or let them go. Sorry, I think Infrogames did no wrong. If they had went and got a court order asking for every customer who had bought a copy of the game, that would be one thing. As it is they are only protecting what they legaly own.

i know ill be flamed and hated for this but i couldnt help it!

[bargora]

While many here think there is no profitability for the games in question, if they are simply mods of original Atari games the company has a responsibility to protect the copy rights. Either they do that or let them go.
I believe that that is an incorrect statement of the U.S. copyright law.

[Nature Boy]

I think that it is really unfortunate and myopic of inforgames to take this action; but such stupidity is pretty much standard opperating procedure for Ataris' many owners.

But if a homebrewer made a sequel to an existing game, with the intention of selling it and without securing the appropriate rights, well, isn't that myopic? At the very least they have to realize that the original copyright holder might come after them.

It doesn't make it easy to swallow (since we're talking about very old technology here). It does make business sense though (from Atari's point of view). And it's unfortunate that we get caught in the middle - if the community is small, nobody pays attention but there isn't as much going on. As soon as the community gets too large there's revenue being lost.

[Leo_A]

First of all its nice you didn't include replies to that comment about Digital Press.

You're attempt to attack AtariAge by posting selective comments was almost as bad as what they did in my opinion.


And hacks having 1 or 2 sprites changed and packaged and sold? Have you played anything?

[ubersaurus]

First of all its nice you didn't include replies to that comment about Digital Press.

You're attempt to attack AtariAge by posting selective comments was almost as bad as what they did in my opinion.


And hacks having 1 or 2 sprites changed and packaged and sold? Have you played anything?

I know there's a large number of hacks for sale that literally only change sprites. The more indepth ones, like the Battlezone two stick one, Pac-man Arcade, Asteroids DC, and suchforth, are definitely sweet, but for every one of those, you have about a dozen hacks of Space Invaders, or Pac-Man.

[Leo_A]

Most all of the recent stuff I've seen come out of AtariAge were almost complete revisions while keeping the gameplay intact.

Things like Minature Golf + that added completely new courses for example, or changes to Combat with new mazes. Those are about the most simple ones I've seen for some time, and how anyone could complain about these is beyond me.

Being a fan of Combat and Minature Golf, getting all new courses was great.

[Ed Oscuro]

... No, they are having ALL of these problems because - some would have you believe - Digital Press turned them into Infogrammes.

[nonsense posts cut by me -Ed]

You know , this would be an opportune time to rally all classic gamers together under a banner of setting aside our differences for a common goal. Instead, some would - STILL - rather find conspiracies were they don't exist and cause trouble when it truly isn't necessary, needed, or remotely constructive to the problem at hand.
Hmm..supposed to be nursin' me elbow but I have to say:

#2 thought: turn the other cheek
first thought: DESTROY THE EVIL BYDO EMPIRE!!!

oh, and it's ATARI WEEK. super con-spiracy!!

But yeah, I guess we all should try to be extra nice, which means opinionated posters like me. The DP crew has always had a tough skin in the face of AA's arguably libelous comments...

GO DP!
:rocker:

[Ed Oscuro]

You're attempt to attack AtariAge by posting selective comments was almost as bad as what they did in my opinion.
Those guys are big names, though. Like the Presidential campaign attack ads - the mods there need to tell those guys to clean it up.

[Leo_A]

I agree somewhat, but the forums seem to be policing it pretty well.

They were informed how idiotic that statement was.

If I go over to AtariAge and say John Kerry and George W. Bush are both gay, would it be right for someone to come over here and talk about how stupid AtariAge is because 1 person said that?


It was a stupid comment, but posting it over here trying to stir something up was as bad as what they did originally posting it. This stupid little war is idiotic, especially considering how many people are members at both Digital Press and AtariAge.

[Ed Oscuro]

Agreed...but last intergalactic forum war it looked to me like there wasn't much defending of DP going on, and so I assumed it was the same this time. Would be nice if it's finally dying out!

[SoulBlazer]

I'm surprised Curt said that, considering the ammount of respect that I have for him. :hmm:

And yeah, I'm not surprised Atari is doing this. Let's just hope they actually DO something with these 'rights' they are defending so hard, and are willing to work with people.

[sku_u]

Agreed...but last intergalactic forum war it looked to me like there wasn't much defending of DP going on, and so I assumed it was the same this time. Would be nice if it's finally dying out!

There are maybe 2 or 3 people who resort to the type of silliness you're referring to. No one in their right mind thinks that the homebrews being pulled had anything to do with DP or any conspiracy against AA. This is a large corporation flexing their muscles.

Most people I've talked to are hoping to garner support from both DP and AA should Infogrames try and go any further than they already have.

[Kid Ice]

It's been commented several times that this action could hurt Atari (infogrames). I'd like to know exactly how. Although DP and AA have some influence in the gaming community, most of us have been purchasing cheap used games at yard sales or stealing them off the internet. Atari will be OK if we stop doing those things. Purchasing Ikaruga from Bestbuy.com was the best thing most of us have done for Atari in over 20 years.

[Ed Oscuro]

LOL

Plus, I haven't even bought Ikaruga!

(did the last two UT2K4 games, though.)

[Sniderman]

Was gonna "turn the other cheek," but I needed to reply to Leo who felt the need to reply to me. Trust me, this isn't flameworthy.

First of all its nice you didn't include replies to that comment about Digital Press.

There weren't any when I made my post here. I do see that, since my post, there were two following posts telling the original posters to grow up. So, yes, there were DP defenders.


You're attempt to attack AtariAge by posting selective comments was almost as bad as what they did in my opinion.

But I *wasn't* attacking AtariAge, Leo. Let's look at my comments. Bold added:

No, they are having ALL of these problems because - some would have you believe - Digital Press turned them into Infogrammes.


Instead, some would - STILL - rather find conspiracies were they don't exist...


Building bridges is so damn important at this time. Some folks, I guess, would rather find a scapegoat than find a solution to the problem.

You see Leo, I didn't damn an entire website just due to the posts of some folks. I made sure to point out that only some of the AA posters were sowing discontent. No attack on AA. Just pointing out that we're all in this together and we need to ACTIVELY BEAT DOWN SOME FOLKS WHO TRY TO TURN THIS INTO A DP VS. AA SITUATION.

For Christ's sake, people. Our hobby's at stake. AA needs DP's support just as much as DP members should support AA. And I'll take to task anyone who tries to spin this situation into yet another cross-site flamewar. At this time, we need each other. And some people would use this to turn us against each other YET AGAIN? We - AA and DP alike - do not need them.

[Griking]

It's been commented several times that this action could hurt Atari (infogrames). I'd like to know exactly how. Although DP and AA have some influence in the gaming community, most of us have been purchasing cheap used games at yard sales or stealing them off the internet. Atari will be OK if we stop doing those things. Purchasing Ikaruga from Bestbuy.com was the best thing most of us have done for Atari in over 20 years.

Amen!

[Iron Draggon]

Atari/Infogrames IS re-releasing much of its 2600 catalog via Atari Anthology (on PS2/Xbox; a PC version is already out) and Atari Flashback. Hence, it's getting more serious about protecting its IPs.

-- Z.

Yeah, but what about all of the unreleased/incomplete stuff? If the owners abandoned it, then it should be up for grabs, if it manages to get leaked out.


What irks me the most is companies which buy other defunct companies, then try to be the powerhouse, suing and such over the old company's properties which they now own. It's like companies that decide to sue everyone over patents they own all day to make their profits, rather than innovating with something new.

And I couldn't agree with this more. DO something with the damn property besides sue people left and right over it, or shut the fuck up. The hacks are happening because what the fans want ISN'T happening on the official dev's end, so why should they be surprised? I understand that the owners have a right to protect their own work, but when the gaming community is actually HELPING to increase awareness of the original works by hacking/modding those works, how is this hurting the big bad corporation just because some poor sap or group of saps actually want to like, you know, get PAID for all their hard work? Infogrames would be better off to take independent dev's like that under their wings and compensate them for doing what they don't care enough to do themselves, than to stir up so much bitter contempt for themselves from the independent dev community which in turn has alot of influence over the attitudes of the general gaming community. All it takes is a few pissed off people to say Atari sucks because... before there's a bunch of people saying Atari sucks because... Work with us, not against us. They should have enough sense to realize that these sort of hacks were never created in an attempt to infringe upon anything, they were made for love of the original creations! Sorry for the rant, but I'm a modder myself, so I tend to take this sort of thing as a personal attack on my right to create content. Yes, I use alot of existing works, but I do alot of work of my own with those existing works, and that makes what I do with it mine, so I think I should be allowed to profit from what I do to enhance the existing works of others.

[Push Upstairs]

I think those guys at AA have it all wrong

IT WAS THE MAN WITH ONE ARM!



On to the topic at hand:

I dont see how this will affect those that make completly orginal games.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Building bridges is so damn important at this time. Some folks, I guess, would rather find a scapegoat than find a solution to the problem.
You are absolutely right and that's why I was very disappointed by your post. Thankfully you corrected the potential wrong impression with your next post.


Those guys are big names, though. Like the Presidential campaign attack ads - the mods there need to tell those guys to clean it up.
There were just the two posts Tim quoted and then two replies which stopped those conspiration theories immediately. So there was no need for moderators.

And for completenes here are the two replies:

Let's not get completely paranoid, please.

Man F' that. How childish can we be? I think you should applogize for even posting the above.

I really hope those IMO very serious problems with Infogrames are not abused by anybody for causing even more trouble between DP and AA.

[farfel]

ACTIVISION responded to homebrews by including them in their anthology release.

ATARI chose to mkae enemies instead.

Screw Atari. Love Activision.

[ubersaurus]

Atari/Infogrames IS re-releasing much of its 2600 catalog via Atari Anthology (on PS2/Xbox; a PC version is already out) and Atari Flashback. Hence, it's getting more serious about protecting its IPs.

-- Z.

Yeah, but what about all of the unreleased/incomplete stuff? If the owners abandoned it, then it should be up for grabs, if it manages to get leaked out.


Except that like it or not, it's still technically the property of the company with the rights to it. If they asked Tempest for those protos for whatever reason, it'd be within their right to do so, and they'd have to expect them back.

That's just how it is. You have to wait a few decades for these things to be public domain for your scenario to be true.

[sku_u]

Except that like it or not, it's still technically the property of the company with the rights to it. If they asked Tempest for those protos for whatever reason, it'd be within their right to do so, and they'd have to expect them back.

Actually, no. When Infogrames bought the rights to Atari, they bought the rights to the intellectual property of the company, not the physical goods that the company produced, whether it was for commercial distribution, or internal testing. They couldn't lay claim to any physical prototypes floating around. The rights to those were abandoned long ago. The best they could do is prohibit the distribution of the rom image contained on that Eprom, and even that would be tricky, because they would have to prove that the rights to that particular game was purchased when they purchased the intellectual rights of Atari.

[swlovinist]

Boy this is getting ugly. I still side with Infogames if they hold the legal rights to do so. I know people are passionate about retro games, and alot of people on this site are very INVESTED in the retrogaming scene. The truth of the matter is that you can't mess with someone elses game, mod it, and then sell it for money without the consent of the person or company who made the original game/or has the legal rights. This goes far beyond games. This applies to music, books, and anything that is a copyright. I am all for original games. I am all for new original games for old sytsems. I dont feel sorry for people who make a hack of a game that they did not create and go through the right channels of legality(or research). Then these same people then the balls to sell it for a profit. In this day and age, that is just stupid. If you are going to do a hack, ask permission. Infogames probably got mad because nobody asked them and started doing it without their consent. Never assume.

[sku_u]

I am all for new original games for old sytsems. I dont feel sorry for people who make a hack of a game that they did not create and go through the right channels of legality(or research). Then these same people then the balls to sell it for a profit. In this day and age, that is just stupid. If you are going to do a hack, ask permission. Infogames probably got mad because nobody asked them and started doing it without their consent. Never assume.

I agree that selling a hack for profit is wrong, but if anyone did any of these with the intention of making a profit, that's definitely news to me. Please let me know how you can make a living selling a few hacks. I'd like to know.

Infogrames have only owned Atari for a short time. Hasbro, the previous owner of the Atari name knew about what was going on and didn't care. There was a long period of time where this sort of thing was going on. All of a sudden, a new person came around and changed things completely. Of course there's going to be anger and resentment towards that new person, but they were within their legal rights to do so. Next, they start eliminating games that were not produced by them, but by homebrewers who created their games using original code. That IMO is where Atari crossed the line from protecting their legal rights to bullying the competition (as small and insignificant as it may be).

[farfel]

ACTIVISION responded to homebrews by including them in their anthology release.

ATARI chose to mkae enemies instead.

Screw Atari. Love Activision.

P.S.
Atari / Infogrames should ask the authors of Pac-Man 2000, Pesco, Real Invaders, and so on if they could include those hacks with the Anthology. Just like Activision did.

[Nature Boy]

ACTIVISION responded to homebrews by including them in their anthology release..

But those homebrews were originals, not hacks! Aren't we talking about hacks here (mostly) or am I missing something?

Activision *did* ask websites to remove Activision roms, did they not?

I've mentioned this before and nobody has said I'm wrong: if you don't protect your copyrights by enforcing them you *can* lose them. Which means that if Atari let the selling of hacks go without challenging them they *could* lose the rights to those games. And I don't think they want to pay royalties for something when it could've been easily avoided.

I think the biggest mistake the community can make is ignoring the business side of things. Which doesn't mean we have to act like a business - far from it! But we can't be naive or ignorant of how businesses operate and we should strive to ensure we're not setting ourselves up for something that can easily be avoided.

[SegaAges]

all i know is that there are some titles out there that atari can't control. i remember the convention where dp got some games and permission to use them. too bad for atari.

this situation sucks, but it will eventually turn out for the good (i hope)

[sku_u]

ACTIVISION responded to homebrews by including them in their anthology release..

But those homebrews were originals, not hacks! Aren't we talking about hacks here (mostly) or am I missing something?

Joustpong
Mondopong
Double Breakout
Haunted House II
Castle Crisis
Combat II
and the now squashed Project Airworld are all homebrews that were pulled, not hacks.

[Ed Oscuro]

I agree that selling a hack for profit is wrong, but if anyone did any of these with the intention of making a profit, that's definitely news to me.
So Atari's lawyers log onto eBay and see folks selling off that hack/homebrew cart they got as a door prize or what have you. You've seen the prices some of the new-millennium releases are pulling down, right?

I'm not painting all these releases as illegal, but probably even when they see a DP CGE cart they make a mental check. It's supposed competition for them.

As for making a living off it...even supplementing your income with a $20 profit one time is "bad." All the same, I'm not arguing that the vast majority of homemade rereleases (ever seen those "prototype reproductions" on eBay?) are wrong or that the current owners aren't entitled to sell them off, but that any cartridge for the VCS that's not "Atari Black" is going to make them grit their corporate teeth.

[ApolloBoy]

Hmm...

I certainly am quite disappointed about the situation (I wanted to get Castle Crisis, dammit!), but I don't think AA has anything to do with it.

[gleavepaul]

If there are any hacks then im sorry Atari/whoever have every right to "bear down" on them, Yes it may be 20 years old but copyrights are copyrights. It is BREAKING THE LAW.(Its no different then hacking halo and putting your own sprites in) It was nice while it happened but you could see it coming a mile off. As for true homebrewers they cant touch you if its all your own code - YOU HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR!!! CARRY ON DOING WHAT YOUR DOING I SATUTE YOU MR HOMEBREW MAN!!!

AS for the DP / AA fights I dont know who or how it started but its a bit petty I thought we were all grown ups here? O_O

[Kid Ice]

ATARI chose to mkae enemies instead.

Screw Atari. Love Activision.

This is exactly what I was talking about before. What fearful and powerful enemies is Atari making by doing this? Some of us don't like it, some of us don't care, but it's no skin of Atari's nose if a bunch of geeks are disappointed that Atari Age can't sell Adventure Two anymore.

[Griking]

But those homebrews were originals, not hacks! Aren't we talking about hacks here (mostly) or am I missing something?


Joustpong

Pong is an Atari games. While I'm not sure if Atari also holds the right to Joust, it probably does have the rights for it on Atari consoles.


Mondopong

Again, Pong is an Atari game. You can't just make sequels of a game that you don't have the rights to.


Double Breakout

Again, Breakout is an Atari copyright.


Haunted House II

Haunted House is an Atari copyright


Castle Crisis

Different name, but a blatant variant of Warlords


Combat II

Combat is an Atari game


and the now squashed Project Airworld are all homebrews that were pulled, not hacks

Even though it was never released, the Earth, Fire, Water, Airworld series were copyright Atari.

Are you beginning to see a pattern developing here? Lay off making games (new gameplay or not) based on Atari owned franchizes and copyrights and you'll probably be just fine.

[kainemaxwell]

Let's all see what happens next before another flame war occurs...

[sku_u]

But those homebrews were originals, not hacks! Aren't we talking about hacks here (mostly) or am I missing something?


Joustpong

Pong is an Atari games. While I'm not sure if Atari also holds the right to Joust, it probably does have the rights for it on Atari consoles.


Mondopong

Again, Pong is an Atari game. You can't just make sequels of a game that you don't have the rights to.


Double Breakout

Again, Breakout is an Atari copyright.



Hmmm, then I guess Atari should be Suing the pants off the creators of both Arkanoid and The revenge of doh then. Maybe they should also sue all those cheap ass video touch machines manufacturers while they're at it that have dervatives of Pong and Breakout on them as well as the 1,820,000 sites that use pong or a derivative as part of their site.

The only thing Joust Pong had to do with Joust or Pong was a sprite. Comparing one with the other is like comparing Space Invaders to Galaxian and Galaga. Maybe Taito should send a C&D order to Namco since the latter 2 resemble the first.

Maybe Atari should send C&D letters to every Adventure game out there since the first of that genre was Adventure by Atari.

Pong is not an Atari game, btw, it was a game Atari licensed from Magnavox.

[Ed Oscuro]

Hmmm, then I guess Atari should be Suing the pants off the creators of both Arkanoid and The revenge of doh then. Maybe they should also sue all those cheap ass video touch machines manufacturers while they're at it that have dervatives of Pong and Breakout on them as well as the 1,820,000 sites that use pong or a derivative as part of their site.
They had their chance 20 years ago. It's too late for that, however viable such a series of suits may have been. Atari had a patent on paralax scrolling; didn't ever really do dick with it from an IP standpoint.

As for gameplay...well, Crazy Taxi vs. Simpsons Road Rage?