DS launch unimpressive, ineffectual [Archive] - Page 3

Michael Thomasson

11-23-2004, 08:22 AM

Well, I'm on the other end. I sold out of my DS alottment over two months ago (72 units) and have turned away 100's of customers that wanted to reserve the unit. We have accessories, so I do not understand why others do not. We have a total of 12 accessories available, and sold the entire lot (33) with the exception of 3 by the end of the second day. Perhaps you are not finding accessories because everyone is sold out! We have had two demo units on display for over a week, and people are going crazy over it. Mario is not a port, really, either. A new game that simply uses the old 3D world from the N64 Super MArio 64. We have also sold out of all the games (3 dozen of each) with the exception of Spiderman, of which we have not sold a single copy - which I find kind of strange, really.

Also, an Atari collection coming to DS in March. Hoperfully it will have the standard controls, in addition to new touchscreen functionality. It would be cool to play Breakout by controlling the paddle with my finger or stylis!

Anyway, now I've told my story.

Michael

dethink

11-23-2004, 08:37 AM

i love mario 64, but even with the added content, it's hardly a new game. adding a switch star to the levels, a couple different rooms in the castle, and 3 new characters - only one of which is needed to solve the clumsily added puzzles (hey, let's put shove some bricks here that only one character can break!) - does not make a new game. don't get me wrong, i relish the opportunity to play through the game again with the little extras added despite the control woes, but i can't help but think of how cool it would be if we had something like a full version of metroid at the launch.

and yes, launch games typically don't push the system like later ones do, but typically they show some kind of leap forward, giving people something they've never seen before, making them more eager to buy. the DC launch didn't show off the future potential of the system in it's entirety, but it did a good job of distancing itself from it's competition at the time, and giving them something different. repackaging a 10 year old game, no matter how good it still is, is not the way to do this...especially when you're trying to reach out to a new audience, and then give them the same old stuff that has caused them to avoid you in the first place.

if mario 64 is your video game equivalent of lima beans, chances are eating those lima beans with a stylus isn't going to woo you.

Blendo75

11-23-2004, 09:21 AM

Video games have hardly been "limited" by a single screen, touch-sensitive or not.

No one is complaining about the touch-screen's capabilities (although the tech, by its very nature, is much more suited to 2D than 3D). It's that the touch-screen/thumb-nubbin combo is a kludgey, awkward implementation of analog control.

Not kludgey, but not "pick up and play either". The thumb strap is necessary if you want something besides the styles. The thumb strap gives you a smooth surface on your thumb. If you tried to use your thumb itself on the touch screen it would create friction. The thumb strap gives you smooth motion over the screen. The DS itself would be limited by one screen. If the DS had only one screen you wouldnt be able to use the touch-screen-analog-control because your thumb would cover the playfield. It's important to have some type of analog control for Mario 64 and other 3-D games, I feel. The d-pad didnt cut it for me, not for Mario 64 anyway.

I mentioned ianoid's intellect in passing, because I'm always pleased to see someone with brains in these forums.

I was just kidding w/ the "stupid" remark... should've put a :)

Walked into the local game store yesterday....and they still had over a dozen DS sitting on the shelves. No-one's looking at them.

(edited this message after making the rounds at the local stores today)
I feel pretty lucky to have gotten one opening day. Every place selling the DS around here seems to have sold out.

Blendo75

11-23-2004, 10:05 AM

repackaging a 10 year old game, no matter how good it still is, is not the way to do this...especially when you're trying to reach out to a new audience, and then give them the same old stuff that has caused them to avoid you in the first place.

If Mario 64, one of the best games ever made* made you avoid Nintendo products in the first place, as you say, then you should not and would not be buying a DS, or anything else made by Nintendo. Why, the very word "Nintendo" would probably make you ill. If you're the kind of person (not you personally) that hates games like that you're not going to pick up the latest Nintendo anything - surely the good folks at Nintendo realize that. Nintendo has lost those customers - forever. So why not give the fans a big wet one with Mario 64? It worked on me. I once dreamed of a hand-held version of Mario 64 and now that dream has come true. If that's not the kind of thing you used to dream about then even when the software lineup has expanded the DS still is probably not for you. It's Nintendo. Some people see Nintendo and they pick it right up, some people immediately pass it by. Some people get excited by ports of 10 year old Mario games and some dont. The DS isnt going to change anyone's mind about Nintendo.

*imho

Ed Oscuro

11-23-2004, 11:14 AM

Blendo, point well taken (I like Mario 64, though it's definitely not one of my top 10 as the camera angles were sufficiently awkward for me years ago that navigation was often difficult, and in any case it's a pretty much inferior experience to the Zelda games), but people will remember that Mario 64 wasn't that graphically impressive compared to later N64 games (yes it ran smoother, and yes the DS remake looks better...does everybody know this?), and furthermore they'll see that Nintendo has had successes reselling old games.

First the NES Classic Series games, now this. What message is that sending? Then there is...Metroid Prime 2, and Zelda Spaceworld Style (a concept they've apparently had shelved since, what, 2001?). What other new Nintendo games have captured the public's attention?

goatdan

11-23-2004, 11:55 AM

First the NES Classic Series games, now this. What message is that sending? Then there is...Metroid Prime 2, and Zelda Spaceworld Style (a concept they've apparently had shelved since, what, 2001?). What other new Nintendo games have captured the public's attention?

Taking a step back further...

What game that isn't already part of an established franchise has caught the public's attention in recent history?

GTA:SA, Halo 2, Metriod Prime 2, Zelda, Metal Gear Solid, Madden, NFL2K5, NBA 2K5, Tony Hawks, Blinx 2, Ratchet and Clank 2, Resident Evil, etc...

I just think that for the most part, new franchises are a thing of the past until the gaming public decides that they don't want another sequel. The games that have captured the public's attention, for the most haven't been new. I'm not really complaining about this, seeing as how I love my Metal Gear Solid, NFL and NBA games and Tony Hawk. I just think that gaming companies have realized that if they step outside the box and create something new, it has a great, great chance to fail. And I think they are correct in assuming that.

Nintendo's treading well-known ground here for safety's sake. The last console that I felt really introduced a lot of new games was the Dreamcast (Seaman, Skies of Arcadia, online content, etc) is dead, at least partially because the new games were unable to capture the attention of the general public.

When a new game comes along that does get a lot of attention (Fable springs to mind), it means that people are going to flock to it, but for every Fable there is, there is a million games (like Galleon) that don't get the attention they deserve and will probably die out because of it.

I think the DS line up so far (including announced titles) has mirrored the entire industry with new games quite a bit. We just haven't see a game like Fable that will capture the public's attention.

xaer0knight

11-23-2004, 12:03 PM

Its all fine and dandy that marketing is looking at demographics, but i really dont care about it. I could care less if the DS had a GTA, or a Mortal Kombat, or a Metal Gear. I would like to think games have more depth than having lots of blood or whoa factor. Im sick off all the games that have Blood, guts, and firetrucks insted of good playablitity or great story. I'll raither play some Nintendo title because of funness or story over a game of whoa factor and lots of gore. I raither see the DS success over the PSP, innovation goes all the way and its up to the devolopers and publishers to utilize the innovation insted of Nintendo catching FLACK.

You're a core gamer. Nintendo isn't trying to sell the DS to you. It's trying to sell the DS to the same mass market of teenagers and grown-ups that Sony is targeting with the PSP. That's one of the reasons why Super Mario 64 DS is a poor choice for a DS killer app; Mario is a children's franchise.

You may not care if the DS gets a GTA, Mortal Kombat, or Metal Gear, but Nintendo and Sony both care very much.

-- Z.

Well, I'm 22 and i have never had a Mario game that i didnt like so far... Hell my dad still plays Mario. Define Core Gamer @_@ ? Why would mario or sonic be considered a children's franchise when half the world plays it or tried it (kids and adults)? The thing is that everyone knows MARIO they could of launched a game without him and the sells probroply would of been less. Good marketing IMO, since everyone knows and/or has heard of mario (Zelda, DK, or Metriod), that pretty much can sell a DS.

Blendo75

11-23-2004, 12:30 PM

What other new Nintendo games have captured the public's attention?

Pikmin? I dont have that myself but it looks like it might become another long-running series. When you say captures the attention of "the public" I immediately think GTA and Halo, being in the news and all. GC doesnt have one particular title like that. I'm sure Mario and Zelda have sold well on the GC but they are familiar and not at all controversial. Someday GTA and Halo will also be very familiar franchises. Hell, GTA is already there as others have mentioned.

First the NES Classic Series games, now this. What message is that sending?

That Nintendo likes easy money. Those games, especially the classic series must have a very limited development time. Nintendo is definitely very heavy on the recreations this generation. But we've seen a lot of that from other companies too. To me it seems like a fad that other companies like Jakk's are making money from too. If there wasnt money to be made they wouldnt do it. Well not wouldnt, couldnt.

I see this as good and bad. Good because if for some reason I got rid of my GBA SP I could still somehow play, for example, Super Mario Bros on the DS via the Classics Series ((cant play the (superior) Game Boy Color version on the DS)). Bad because it makes Nintendo look like they're resting on their laurels.

You can look at it either way: Ninendo is nicely giving you every chance to play their classics or they're greedily milking them for all they're worth. On a message board like this most people are still going to have their NES systems so the classics series and Mario recreations get kind of a cold reception, maybe people with no other way to play Super Mario Bros./2/3/64 or the original Zelda get more excited about stuff like this.

Mario is a children's franchise.

Hardly. Mario is kid-friendly but not exclusively enjoyed by kids. Neither is Sonic, Beyond Good & Evil, Ratchet & Clank, Spyro, Crash, Jak & Daxter, Viewtiful Joe, etc. Almost every classic game we play is kid friendly, that doesnt mean it's for kids. If Super Mario Bros is a children's game then so is Donkey Kong.

Gregory DG

11-23-2004, 12:34 PM

It's all about Christmas. Gotta get it out before Dec. 25 to capitalize on that. It doesn't matter if the games suck or there are no accessories. :/

lendelin

11-23-2004, 02:24 PM

I say it again: WHAT ABOUT THE REVOLUTIONARY SECOND SCREEN? :)

Take two steps back from all the excitement, and ask yourself if the second screen with touch-screen controls adds to gameplay experiences. Is it good, is it bad? Could you play the games without the second screen or even better without it?...and there you have your answer about the success of the DS.

The recent issue of NP has a detailed description of the DS games. The second screen wasn't even the focus of the descriptions, and the use of the second screen was disappointing at best. Spiderman, Madden, Mario Kart...you name it, I have the impression it is used predomionantly for gimmicky little add-ons for games not designed anyway with the second screen in mind. Maps, little moves, nothing else...and when the touch-screen controls has some probs, the DS built upon a dual screen and marketed with the second screen as the big selling point won't be a success. It is as simple as that.

So far nothing convinced me about the second screen reading mags and posts in this thread. It seems that the second screen becomes an appendix -- you can live without it, and sometimes it causes problems and you go to the hospital; and if this is true and won't change, the prospects for the DS are dim.

petewhitley

11-23-2004, 04:18 PM

Taking a step back further...

What game that isn't already part of an established franchise has caught the public's attention in recent history? ... I think the DS line up so far (including announced titles) has mirrored the entire industry with new games quite a bit. We just haven't see a game like Fable that will capture the public's attention.

But the problem with Super Mario 64 DS and Nintendo's handheld lineup as of late isn't that of recycling franchises (which is par for course in the industry), it's recycling the very GAMES themselves. An entirely new game based on Mario 64? Sign me up. A carbon-copy of Mario 64 with a few throw-away extras and multiplayer? Not a chance. I'd rather spend my money on the new Metal Gear Acid, which recycles the franchise but not the game. Sony is guilty of this to some extent as well (see GT4), but at least they're pushing current-gen hits for full price (where I can pick up the PSP version instead of the PS2 version if I so choose). Sorry Nintendo, but you got my Mario 64 money 10 years ago and you ain't getting it again.

zmweasel

11-23-2004, 05:06 PM

Not kludgey, but not "pick up and play either". The thumb strap is necessary if you want something besides the styles. The thumb strap gives you a smooth surface on your thumb. If you tried to use your thumb itself on the touch screen it would create friction. The thumb strap gives you smooth motion over the screen. The DS itself would be limited by one screen. If the DS had only one screen you wouldnt be able to use the touch-screen-analog-control because your thumb would cover the playfield. It's important to have some type of analog control for Mario 64 and other 3-D games, I feel. The d-pad didnt cut it for me, not for Mario 64 anyway.

Everyone understands the purpose of the thumb-strap, silly as it is. (I don't want to encounter a strap-on device in ANY aspect of my life.) It's that the touch-screen/thumb-strap combo is an awkward, kludgey substitute for analog-stick control.

The D-pad doesn't cut it for 64 DS, and doesn't cut it for ANY 3D third-person-perspective game, because those games are built around analog-stick control.

It's indeed important for 3D games to offer analog control. That's why the absence of true analog control from the DS is going to be a constant complaint, and a problem that developers have to work around. The touch-screen/thumb-strap combo is apparently the best that Nintendo itself can do.

-- Z.

Lone_Monster

11-23-2004, 05:11 PM

About the advertising, I think I have seen about 5 commercials of it, before it was launched. Two of them were commercials from a Channel One thing they have at the beginning of school everyday, and the other three were commercials on TV at home.

zmweasel

11-23-2004, 05:16 PM

Well, I'm 22 and i have never had a Mario game that i didnt like so far... Hell my dad still plays Mario. Define Core Gamer @_@ ? Why would mario or sonic be considered a children's franchise when half the world plays it or tried it (kids and adults)? The thing is that everyone knows MARIO they could of launched a game without him and the sells probroply would of been less. Good marketing IMO, since everyone knows and/or has heard of mario (Zelda, DK, or Metriod), that pretty much can sell a DS.

I didn't say that enjoyment of the Mario franchise was limited to children; I'm saying that Mario is a children's franchise. It's a cartoon character in a cartoon world. A minority of adults, usually core gamers, are fine with that; most others, as sales of MGS and Splinter Cell and GTA and many other franchises have demonstrated, prefer mature experiences.

There's no question that Mario is a recognized franchise. There's also no question that the Metroid demo was included with the DS because it's Nintendo's only NON-children's franchise, and the DS is trying to attract the same audience of teenagers and adults as the PSP.

-- Z.

Blendo75

11-23-2004, 06:09 PM

Sorry Nintendo, but you got my Mario 64 money 10 years ago and you ain't getting it again.

Ah, see I can justify it because it's a portable version. Even if it was exactly the same as the original Mario 64. To me that's the real difference, that you can play it on-the-go. Or at work ;)

(I don't want to encounter a strap-on device in ANY aspect of my life.)

LOL I've been waiting this entire thread for that analogy to come up.

goatdan

11-23-2004, 08:11 PM

Just a note on this whole thing...

I stopped in Toys R Us today for some $5.00 off those games under $20.00 deal (that's really sweet :)) and overheard them discussing the DS frequently. They were asked about the console probably 5 times in the ten minutes I was there, and once I overheard the person say they got in 50 for Saturday and were sold out immediately, and they got in 6 more this morning and were sold out within five minutes of opening.

Honestly, I don't understand where the hype is coming from, but where ever it is, it seems to be working in Milwaukee. *shrug*

EDIT: Almost forgot - while out of stock of the DS, they had all of the games in stock. They also had the official Nintendo AD adaptor and about 8 different third party accessories from a leather carrying case to a screen protector and some other stuff. They may also have had in the styluses, but I don't remember. As strange as the display was, it was probably 40% where the DSes had been, 50% accessories and 10% games.

They did have every game in stock, but they were running low on all of them except Spiderman. What's up with that title? I've heard from other people it wasn't selling very good either.

And from *finally* getting to look at the actual game cases, _that_ is sweet. Geni-like cases from Nintendo... It's about damn time. I have always HATED their crappy boxes with a passion.

xaer0knight

11-23-2004, 10:13 PM

GarrettCRW

11-24-2004, 01:03 AM

That is, unless the pixel thing ruins the reputation of the product - we'll see.

If it's that bad, then there's a good chance that Nintendo will do something drastic and PR-friendly as what they did in Japan when the '83 Famicoms had massive defects-something Sony has proven they won't do *cough*DRE's*cough*.

GarrettCRW

11-24-2004, 01:11 AM

Which is the wrong sort of game for the market Nintendo really needs to capture.

Actually, this is the definition of a first-gen title: the programmers experimenting with the system to find out its capabilities. Believe me, this will pay off if/when we see Sega put out a killer app for the system.

GarrettCRW

11-24-2004, 01:29 AM

The D-pad doesn't cut it for 64 DS, and doesn't cut it for ANY 3D third-person-perspective game, because those games are built around analog-stick control.

Odd, since analog control didn't exist when the PlayStation came out in '95. So the defining games of the 3D era (for Sony, the industry leader) were designed for a digital controller (and games still haven't used the now-standard dual analog sticks to their fullest extent). While it can be validly argued that Mario 64 was designed for an analog stick, it can't be said about all 3D games. (In fact, I've found that most "average" people hate the analog sticks, and naturally gravitate towards the control pads.)

petewhitley

11-24-2004, 06:42 AM

In fact, I've found that most "average" people hate the analog sticks, and naturally gravitate towards the control pads.

Thank you Dr. GarettCRW. Now, back to our regularly scheduled gamers ...

goatdan

11-24-2004, 11:13 AM

Odd, since analog control didn't exist when the PlayStation came out in '95. So the defining games of the 3D era (for Sony, the industry leader) were designed for a digital controller (and games still haven't used the now-standard dual analog sticks to their fullest extent). While it can be validly argued that Mario 64 was designed for an analog stick, it can't be said about all 3D games. (In fact, I've found that most "average" people hate the analog sticks, and naturally gravitate towards the control pads.)

Analog control was something that the Atari 5200 did way back in the 1980's, and the Jaguar was actually set up for it, although no analog Jaguar controllers ever came out.

Your point about the defining games of the 3D era being designed by Sony is a good one though, and something that isn't really mentioned. On the other hand, I don't know of one person who actually purchases a game system and is looking for something without analog control. The analog joysticks are harder for my dad to use, but the chances of him purchasing a DS is about as good as if I won the lottery tonight (and I don't buy tickets).

I agree that the average game does like analog control, but I don't know if there is a good way to do it in a portable. We'll have to see how the PSP does it, but from what I've seen that isn't perfect either. The closest that I've seen is the Neo Geo Pocket's joystick, which rocks but isn't analog... but it could've been.