The Gamecube is dead ! serious, "The Post" said so

[RCM]

Is Gamecube dead? NO! It's true that it dosen't have as many games as PS2 and hasn't sold quite as many, but when compared to, say, the Dreamcast, or a similar system, the Gamecube has been going along very well.

Gamecube isn't dead, it's on life support. It's good to compare the DC and the GC. They are both good systems that never got the credit they deserved. One thing that will always stand out with the DC is the excitement that the system generated when it was announced and released. Good times, good times! So many great games for that system.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

[Half Japanese]

Another striking similarity is the fact that the biggest online game for the DC is the ONLY online game for the GCN. That's sad folks. Sad. Sad. Xbox and ps2 are in extremely short supply nationwide meanwhile you can pick up a Gamecube with Mario Kart and an extra controller thrown in free at any shop in the country. That's pretty rough if you ask me. It sucks that it didn't do better, but there's nothing we could do about it. We don't work in the marketing or relations department at Nintendo. Diehard fanboyism isn't going to change that now.

[zmweasel]

You also have to realise that Japan is still the major player in video games. With such a large percentage of the big hits and great games, Japan is still the biggest force in gaming, not so much in terms of sales but in terms of game development. This is the X-box's biggest downfall. Look at how few JP X-box games there are, and the ones that are on the X-box are PS2 ports / multiple platform games. Will this be enough to cripple the X-box / its successors? Probally not, but it sure isn't helping them.

You have to update your thinking. Japan is NOT still the "major player" in video games. Go read this excellent 1up.com article: http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3133485

The simple fact that Microsoft is likely going to become the #2 worldwide home-console manufacturer, DESPITE Japanese gamers' xenophobia, speaks volumes about the lessened importance of the Japanese market.

-- Z.

[zmweasel]

everyone shut the fuck up about SONY or Microsoft or even Nintendo if thats who you dislike this week...........compition breeds creativity........IE: the Russians and the US in the space race.

Except the competitors in that instance were the world's most brilliant scientists, not a bunch of teenagers who've attached their egos to hunks of plastic.

-- Z.

[zmweasel]

There are some inequities to the competition I'd say... and creativity doesn't mean squat to mass-market yokels. If creativity were king of the heap Sony definately wouldn't be reigning now would they? Big S and Big M's brand of competition breeds greed. Anyway you slice it, it's bad for gamers.

Yep, in a perfect world, Nintendo would be king of the heap, with such original software as Mario Party 5 and Metroid Prime 2 and Super Mario 64 DS.

Were Nintendo and Sega "greedy" during the 16-bit wars, and was it bad for gamers? Most of the people in this forum would say no.


In a perfect world, there would be enough room on store shelves for all games regardless who supports them or who made them. In reality the stores promote their own profit, which they have too, it keeps them from having to close shop. Unfortunately marketing-hype determines what the masses "want", they know no better.

GTA: SA and Halo 2 are great games. People are buying them because they rock, not because the marketroids are making them do so. Just as people bought Super Mario Bros. 3, one of the most hyped games in history (which even had a feature-length film as a promotional tool), because it rocked.

-- Z.

[FurinkanianFrood]

Quote:

You have to update your thinking. Japan is NOT still the "major player" in video games. Go read this excellent 1up.com article: http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3133485

The simple fact that Microsoft is likely going to become the #2 worldwide home-console manufacturer, DESPITE Japanese gamers' xenophobia, speaks volumes about the lessened importance of the Japanese market.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I couldn't agree more. Sorry I got so upset over nothing Z.
The intelligence you've demonstrated in your recent remarks makes me feel rather small I must say. I misintepreted remarks when I was tired. What you said was happening in the market is in fact absolutely true. I didn't pay enough attention to context and thus I thought you were saying that PS2 games were absolutely better for everyone. Oops!

Sony is clearly the winner in terms of console sales by a huge margin.

Nintendo is one of the top Japanese game publishers and they make a lot of money despite disappointing console sales.

If game companies are businesses, the company that makes more profit from games is the winner.

It seems Nintendo can easily make more money than Sony's game division does by being a successful publisher.

Sony does not benefit nearly as much from software sales as Nintendo does, so the first party business model at Nintendo does not require leadership in console sales to be effective.

I do think that the Gamecube is a better value for most people, even if they do not realize it because of preudice. In terms of both money and games. Gamecube games seem more fun to me is all. Some PS2 games are fun, but many of them just feel wrong to me because of some intangible quality. The GC is also a bargain at the current price point, and Nintendo has some really nice games coming down the pipe for it.

What I meant to say before I started talking stupid is that I am convinced
that Sony will make some big mistakes that will lead to the eventual console market share ranks being:

1. Microsoft
2. Nintendo

I don't see any reason to think that Sony will be in first place forever.
If the PS3 is a spectacular failure due to the following possible issues:

1. Microsoft gets the jump on them in the US, causing development to follow the money, even in Japan.

2. New technology (Cell and Bluray for instance) causes extreme programming difficulty, a high price point, an excessive delay, and/or reliability issues.

I believe that enough of that will happen, that, combined with Microsoft's muscle, Sony will fall far enough that they will neglect and eventually abandon videogames in favor of their more profitable core businesses.

Yeah, my Atari years of dominance was off. I was very young at the time of the crash (though I did have a VCS).
The Nintendo number I gave is about right if you include 83-84 for the Famicom and take into account the tremendous failure of the Megadrive in Japan (due to the PC Engine's success in the early 16-bit era over there).

I also agree with the many people who have said that GC should have had online play. Nintendo has underestimated the popularity of online gaming in the US by a long shot.

All companies are in it to make money by the way. Even when I am crazed out of my skull I don't use that as an excuse to bash stuff. Reality can byte sometimes.[/quote]

[Promophile]

You also have to realise that Japan is still the major player in video games. With such a large percentage of the big hits and great games, Japan is still the biggest force in gaming, not so much in terms of sales but in terms of game development. This is the X-box's biggest downfall. Look at how few JP X-box games there are, and the ones that are on the X-box are PS2 ports / multiple platform games. Will this be enough to cripple the X-box / its successors? Probally not, but it sure isn't helping them.

You have to update your thinking. Japan is NOT still the "major player" in video games. Go read this excellent 1up.com article: http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3133485

The simple fact that Microsoft is likely going to become the #2 worldwide home-console manufacturer, DESPITE Japanese gamers' xenophobia, speaks volumes about the lessened importance of the Japanese market.

-- Z.

The article doesn't prove much. Basically its saying that the Japanese market has been living on sequels and they need to pump out some new hits. How is that different from the US? We are now on the second Halo and the 5th(ish) Grand Theft Auto, and the 3rd(I think) Jak and Daxter, the 2nd or 3rd Ratchet and Clank??, the 5000000th Madden game? Just look at releases, the majority of the big name titles are produced in Japan. Japan is where the producing is, especially in the console RPG market, and the US is where the market is.

[zmweasel]

The article doesn't prove much. Basically its saying that the Japanese market has been living on sequels and they need to pump out some new hits. How is that different from the US? We are now on the second Halo and the 5th(ish) Grand Theft Auto, and the 3rd(I think) Jak and Daxter, the 2nd or 3rd Ratchet and Clank??, the 5000000th Madden game? Just look at releases, the majority of the big name titles are produced in Japan. Japan is where the producing is, especially in the console RPG market, and the US is where the market is.

You didn't read for comprehension. In particular, you missed the section that begins with this quote--

"By comparison [to the Japanese], the American and European branches of the industry have created new hits, new characters, and new franchises."

--and then proceeds to list several notable examples.

Your fixation on console RPGs would explain much of your irrational belief that Japan is still the leader of the game biz. RPGs are a hardcore-niche category in North America. FF7 was an exception to that rule, but it benefited from an extraordinary mainstream marketing push by Sony.

As for "looking at releases," which ones are YOU looking at? The most hyped game for each of the Big Three platforms this Xmas was developed OUTSIDE OF Japan: San Andreas (Rockstar North), Halo 2 (Bungie), and Metroid Prime 2 (Retro Studios).

Looking at the ten best-selling North American console games for October '04 (the most recent NPD data), only one of them was developed in Japan: Paper Mario for the GameCube.

Go back to September, and you have two Japan-developed games in the top ten: Star Ocean (which disappeared in October--RPG sales are front-loaded, as RPG freaks buy 'em in the first week of release) and Pikmin 2.

Again, you have to update your thinking.

-- Z.

[PS2Hawk]

Thats strange, I can't find a Nintendo Gamecube with Mario Kart anywhere.

[SoulBlazer]

Zach, I disgaree with one thing you said -- RPG's are STILL hardcore niche? REALLY???? I would have agreed with you 10 years ago, but now? When we get 2-3 new RPG's released in the States a MONTH and most of them have very good sales? More and more RPG's get translated and released in the States that would not have seen a US release even a few years ago. I know the video game market itself is doing well, but we would'nt be seeing this if the genre itself was'nt selling well.

[Promophile]

The article doesn't prove much. Basically its saying that the Japanese market has been living on sequels and they need to pump out some new hits. How is that different from the US? We are now on the second Halo and the 5th(ish) Grand Theft Auto, and the 3rd(I think) Jak and Daxter, the 2nd or 3rd Ratchet and Clank??, the 5000000th Madden game? Just look at releases, the majority of the big name titles are produced in Japan. Japan is where the producing is, especially in the console RPG market, and the US is where the market is.

You didn't read for comprehension. In particular, you missed the section that begins with this quote--

"By comparison [to the Japanese], the American and European branches of the industry have created new hits, new characters, and new franchises."

--and then proceeds to list several notable examples.

Your fixation on console RPGs would explain much of your irrational belief that Japan is still the leader of the game biz. RPGs are a hardcore-niche category in North America. FF7 was an exception to that rule, but it benefited from an extraordinary mainstream marketing push by Sony.

As for "looking at releases," which ones are YOU looking at? The most hyped game for each of the Big Three platforms this Xmas was developed OUTSIDE OF Japan: San Andreas (Rockstar North), Halo 2 (Bungie), and Metroid Prime 2 (Retro Studios).

Looking at the ten best-selling North American console games for October '04 (the most recent NPD data), only one of them was developed in Japan: Paper Mario for the GameCube.

Go back to September, and you have two Japan-developed games in the top ten: Star Ocean (which disappeared in October--RPG sales are front-loaded, as RPG freaks buy 'em in the first week of release) and Pikmin 2.

Again, you have to update your thinking.

-- Z.

I'm looking at quantity more than a few big hits. The PC market is obviously dominated by the US, but consoles aren't. Looking at September 2004 (on the NDP website) I see three Japanese produced games in the top 10, with Pokemon fire red beating out fable for number 1. Looking at the 2003 summary, I see 4 Japanese produced games in the top 10 for the year in 2003. It varies from month to month. If you go back you can find months where it's 50/50 with half the top 10 being JP and half being US. I didn't doubt that the top 10 would be filled with sports games and the big titles like Halo, but how many US titles are in the top 50? top 100? I have a feeling that the top 100 will be heavy with JP titles. But if you can prove otherwise go ahead.




RPGs are a hardcore-niche category in North America

You sure about that? RPGs are what MADE the playstation, and catapulted them over Nintendo. One of the biggest reasons given for the flop of the N64 is Nintendo's steadfast opposition to RPGs.

For a hardcore niche there sure are alot of RPGs making it into the top 10. In September you have Star Ocean, two Pokemons, Fable, making 4 out of 10 of the stop 10 in September RPGs.

[zmweasel]

I'm looking at quantity more than a few big hits. The PC market is obviously dominated by the US, but consoles aren't. Looking at September 2004 (on the NDP website) I see three Japanese produced games in the top 10, with Pokemon fire red beating out fable for number 1. Looking at the 2003 summary, I see 4 Japanese produced games in the top 10 for the year in 2003. It varies from month to month. If you go back you can find months where it's 50/50 with half the top 10 being JP and half being US. I didn't doubt that the top 10 would be filled with sports games and the big titles like Halo, but how many US titles are in the top 50? top 100? I have a feeling that the top 100 will be heavy with JP titles. But if you can prove otherwise go ahead.

So you want to 1) cheat by including handheld games, which are Pokemon- and Mario-dominated, since Nintendo's first-party GBA carts are the only handheld games that sell, and 2) define "dominance" as "quantity" (?!) by looking at the top 50 and 100, as opposed to the top 10 that account for the majority of North American video game sales in a given month. You realize these two points seriously deflate your argument, right?

Of the top 25 games--across all formats, to humor you--for October 2004, six are Japanese-developed, four are from Nintendo, and two are Pokemon.

Do you really want to delve into the top 50 or top 100 and have your theory further disproven?


You sure about that? RPGs are what MADE the playstation, and catapulted them over Nintendo. One of the biggest reasons given for the flop of the N64 is Nintendo's steadfast opposition to RPGs.

RPGs didn't "make" the PS in North America. Twisted Metal and Resident Evil and Crash Bandicoot and NFL GameDay and Tomb Raider and Gran Turismo made the PS in North America. Nor did a lack of RPGs "kill" the N64 in North America. You're looking at the world through myopic Japanese RPG-colored glasses.


For a hardcore niche there sure are alot of RPGs making it into the top 10. In September you have Star Ocean, two Pokemons, Fable, making 4 out of 10 of the stop 10 in September RPGs.

Again, you're cheating by including handheld games in a console discussion. Although you do make the point that without the presence of Nintendo, Japanese games would be much harder to find anywhere near the top of the North American sales charts.

Of the best-selling games in 2003--across all formats, to humor you--four of them were Japanese, all four were from Nintendo, and two of them were Pokemon. The other six were Madden NFL 2004, Need for Speed: Underground, GTA: Vice City, Tony Hawk Underground, Enter the Matrix, and Medal of Honor: Rising Sun. Where's that Japanese "dominance"?

As I explained in my earlier post, Japanese RPG sales are front-loaded. They sell enough copies to the hardcore to make the middle of the chart for a month, maybe near the top if it's not the latter half of the year, and then disappear. Example: Lunar: SSSC was the best-selling PS1 game in June of whatever year Victor finally shipped it, and never showed up in the top ten again. It was a successful game, selling 250,000 copies in its lifetime, but the majority of those sales were in the first week and the first month.

Fable (not a Japanese-developed game!) is an exception, but it--like FF7--has received an invaluable first-party marketing push.

Japanese RPGs are not a mainstream console genre in North America. They're much too geeky for Joe Sixpack, who plays Madden and Halo and GTA, the games that stay on the charts for more than a month.

Again, you have to update your thinking.

-- Z.

[Promophile]

I'm looking at quantity more than a few big hits. The PC market is obviously dominated by the US, but consoles aren't. Looking at September 2004 (on the NDP website) I see three Japanese produced games in the top 10, with Pokemon fire red beating out fable for number 1. Looking at the 2003 summary, I see 4 Japanese produced games in the top 10 for the year in 2003. It varies from month to month. If you go back you can find months where it's 50/50 with half the top 10 being JP and half being US. I didn't doubt that the top 10 would be filled with sports games and the big titles like Halo, but how many US titles are in the top 50? top 100? I have a feeling that the top 100 will be heavy with JP titles. But if you can prove otherwise go ahead.

So you want to 1) cheat by including handheld games, which are Pokemon- and Mario-dominated, since Nintendo's first-party GBA carts are the only handheld games that sell, and 2) define "dominance" as "quantity" (?!) by looking at the top 50 and 100, as opposed to the top 10 that account for the majority of North American video game sales in a given month. You realize these two points seriously deflate your argument, right?

Of the top 25 games--across all formats, to humor you--for October 2004, six are Japanese-developed, four are from Nintendo, and two are Pokemon.

Do you really want to delve into the top 50 or top 100 and have your theory further disproven?


You sure about that? RPGs are what MADE the playstation, and catapulted them over Nintendo. One of the biggest reasons given for the flop of the N64 is Nintendo's steadfast opposition to RPGs.

RPGs didn't "make" the PS in North America. Twisted Metal and Resident Evil and Crash Bandicoot and NFL GameDay and Tomb Raider and Gran Turismo made the PS in North America. Nor did a lack of RPGs "kill" the N64 in North America. You're looking at the world through myopic Japanese RPG-colored glasses.


For a hardcore niche there sure are alot of RPGs making it into the top 10. In September you have Star Ocean, two Pokemons, Fable, making 4 out of 10 of the stop 10 in September RPGs.

Again, you're cheating by including handheld games in a console discussion. Although you do make the point that without the presence of Nintendo, Japanese games would be much harder to find anywhere near the top of the North American sales charts.

Of the best-selling games in 2003--across all formats, to humor you--four of them were Japanese, all four were from Nintendo, and two of them were Pokemon. The other six were Madden NFL 2004, Need for Speed: Underground, GTA: Vice City, Tony Hawk Underground, Enter the Matrix, and Medal of Honor: Rising Sun. Where's that Japanese "dominance"?

As I explained in my earlier post, Japanese RPG sales are front-loaded. They sell enough copies to the hardcore to make the middle of the chart for a month, maybe near the top if it's not the latter half of the year, and then disappear. Example: Lunar: SSSC was the best-selling PS1 game in June of whatever year Victor finally shipped it, and never showed up in the top ten again. It was a successful game, selling 250,000 copies in its lifetime, but the majority of those sales were in the first week and the first month.

Fable (not a Japanese-developed game!) is an exception, but it--like FF7--has received an invaluable first-party marketing push.

Japanese RPGs are not a mainstream console genre in North America. They're much too geeky for Joe Sixpack, who plays Madden and Halo and GTA, the games that stay on the charts for more than a month.

Again, you have to update your thinking.

-- Z.

I don't really wanna argue about it, It's not really worth it. Of course games like Madden will sell better than RPGs, just like Jessica Simpson albums sell better than rock_album_01. That doesn't mean rock_album_01 isn't mainstream, it just means most people have no taste. The ability for RPGs to breech the top 10 proves that they are mainstream. Anyways, I'm done, have more productive things to do than argue this.

[zmweasel]

Zach, I disgaree with one thing you said -- RPG's are STILL hardcore niche? REALLY???? I would have agreed with you 10 years ago, but now? When we get 2-3 new RPG's released in the States a MONTH and most of them have very good sales? More and more RPG's get translated and released in the States that would not have seen a US release even a few years ago. I know the video game market itself is doing well, but we would'nt be seeing this if the genre itself was'nt selling well.

Japanese RPGs usually do well in North America, but without a major marketing push, they don't do best-seller well. It's a solidly established niche, via which smaller publishers can make a decent living, but all the major North American publishers make their bread from sports, driving, and shooting, not localized RPGs.

-- Z.

[zmweasel]

I don't really wanna argue about it, It's not really worth it. Of course games like Madden will sell better than RPGs, just like Jessica Simpson albums sell better than rock_album_01. That doesn't mean rock_album_01 isn't mainstream, it just means most people have no taste. The ability for RPGs to breech the top 10 proves that they are mainstream. Anyways, I'm done, have more productive things to do than argue this.

So now you're equating Madden to Jessica Simpson (?!), cursing North American gamers for having no taste, and claiming that Japanese RPGs are mainstream in North America because their front-loaded sales allow them to occasionally crack the top ten in the less competitive parts of the year, or if they have first-party marketing. If that's the best you can muster in the face of all the statistics that disagree with your theory, perhaps it's best that you leave the thread, rather than--gasp--update your thinking.

-- Z.

[vincewy]

I do have to disagree that Xbox is doing poorly in Asia, this is ONLY true in Japan, I just got back from Taiwan that Xbox is almost on par with PS2, the same can be said in S Korea, Singapore and HK where highest % of broadband users can be seen. One main reason is, Japanese market is resistant to foreign console makers, well, that's too bad for them, they're no longer the prime gaming market, Nintendo launched their last new system outside Japan for the first time.

One thing Nintendo has going for now is handheld and domestic(Japan) Gamecube markets, at least they're making profit with games and GC ystems are cheap to produce.

[SoulBlazer]

What about Square Enix? That's a company that, even back when they were seperate companies, make about 75-80 percent of games in the RPG area, and they are a major publisher. No, I don't know how they are in sales or rank right now, but it sure seems like they make their bread and butter off RPG's.

Sure, RPG's may not as big as some genres, but I'd still argue that RPG's are no longer a niche market. Sure, they are front loaded, because most of them don't have much replay value and I'm SURE many copies of them are picked up used after their original owner finishes them. I just did that with Star Ocean 3 myself.

Plus every MAJOR NA company has a established RPG franchise. Konami has Suikoden. Capcom has Breath of Fire. Namco has Xenosaga and the Tales franchise. Square Enix has Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior. EA has been doing the Lord of the Ring games. I'm sure Atari and Activision have been doing something in that area.

I just don't see RPG's as being as 'geeky' as they used to be. No doubt modern technology has helped, as a lot of these games are loaded with great graphics and music, incredable storylines, and gimics to bring in the players. I've personaly converted about five of my friends into the genre, by having them start with Final Fantasy games and then branching out.

I love my Madden and GTA games also, but when I want something more serious I know which genre to turn to. ;)

[zmweasel]

What about Square Enix? That's a company that, even back when they were seperate companies, make about 75-80 percent of games in the RPG area, and they are a major publisher. No, I don't know how they are in sales or rank right now, but it sure seems like they make their bread and butter off RPG's.

Sure, RPG's may not as big as some genres, but I'd still argue that RPG's are no longer a niche market. Sure, they are front loaded, because most of them don't have much replay value and I'm SURE many copies of them are picked up used after their original owner finishes them. I just did that with Star Ocean 3 myself.

Plus every MAJOR NA company has a established RPG franchise. Konami has Suikoden. Capcom has Breath of Fire. Namco has Xenosaga and the Tales franchise. Square Enix has Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior. EA has been doing the Lord of the Ring games. I'm sure Atari and Activision have been doing something in that area.

I just don't see RPG's as being as 'geeky' as they used to be. No doubt modern technology has helped, as a lot of these games are loaded with great graphics and music, incredable storylines, and gimics to bring in the players. I've personaly converted about five of my friends into the genre, by having them start with Final Fantasy games and then branching out.

I love my Madden and GTA games also, but when I want something more serious I know which genre to turn to. ;)

No one reads for comprehension anymore. :) My earlier post, with caps: "...all the major NORTH AMERICAN publishers make their bread from sports, driving, and shooting, not localized RPGs." Square Enix is a Japanese publisher with a North American branch, and it's long been established as an RPG-driven company.

In fact, ALL the other companies you mention are Japanese companies with NA branches, except for EA, which has done one Lord of the Rings console RPG and two beat-'em-ups.

And all the games you mention outside of Square Enix's are niche-fillers in the publishers' lineups, not triple-A titles. Suikoden is a cult series; Konami itself didn't have enough faith to crank out an adequate first printing of III. Breath of Fire is pretty much dead in NA after Dragon Quarter tanked. Namco is giving Xenosaga a decent mainstream push, but the Tales franchise is pure niche.

In the latest issue of Surge is an interview with David Cross, who did voice acting for both Halo 2 and GTA: San Andreas, in which he's asked if he plays RPGs. His response? "Nope. Way too faggy. Sorry. Way too nerdy-faggy. Sorry guys. I gotta draw the line somewhere." And that's the attitude of the mainstream gamer.

-- Z.

[Berserker]

"Nope. Way too faggy. Sorry. Way too nerdy-faggy. Sorry guys. I gotta draw the line somewhere."

http://www.wrybread.com/gammablablog/images/4-03/david-cross.jpg<~~~ David Cross

[zmweasel]

"Nope. Way too faggy. Sorry. Way too nerdy-faggy. Sorry guys. I gotta draw the line somewhere."

http://www.wrybread.com/gammablablog/images/4-03/david-cross.jpg<~~~ David Cross

Behold the power of Google. I'm sure Cross wasn't at all posing or in character for that picture.

Here's another person whose opinions we should discount because he's clowning for a camera:

http://www.edugraphics.net/gj-people/einstein/posters/gj221-to.JPG

Now post a picture of yourself, so we can mock it and discount your opinions, too.

-- Z.

[SoulBlazer]

Yes, Zach, I KNOW you said NA companies but there's only a handfull of companies that make console games only that are not based in Japan. I had to draw the line somewhere to make my argument. ;)

I just don't see RPG's as being niche based anymore, but I guess we could make a whole new thread about that. ;)

Would you at least agree that times are changing? More people are playing RPG's these days, more people are buying them, and more games are being made and translated. Give it another five years and the new wave of consoles and they could be one of the best sellers on the market.

[Promophile]

"Nope. Way too faggy. Sorry. Way too nerdy-faggy. Sorry guys. I gotta draw the line somewhere."

http://www.wrybread.com/gammablablog/images/4-03/david-cross.jpg<~~~ David Cross

Pwned

[Berserker]

Behold the power of Google. I'm sure Cross wasn't at all posing or in character for that picture.

Here's another person whose opinions we should discount because he's clowning for a camera:

http://www.edugraphics.net/gj-people/einstein/posters/gj221-to.JPG

Now post a picture of yourself, so we can mock it and discount your opinions, too.

-- Z.

Who said I was discounting his opinion? I just found the irony amusing.

Yes, that's a rather over-geeked out picture of him, but you have to admit, the guy comes off as rather geeky in general.

I find your insights and your reliance on cold hard facts to back up those insights a welcome sight on these boards, but that doesn't nescesarily mean you need to go after everyone who quotes you with a magnifying glass and a blowtorch, Zach.

[zmweasel]

Yes, Zach, I KNOW you said NA companies but there's only a handfull of companies that make console games only that are not based in Japan. I had to draw the line somewhere to make my argument. ;)

"A handful of companies...not based in Japan"? EA (the world's #1 software publisher), Activision (the world's #2 software publisher), Buena Vista, Eidos, Midway, Microsoft, Empire, Encore, Majesco, Ubisoft, THQ, Vivendi Universal, DreamCatcher, and LucasArts are "a handful"?


Would you at least agree that times are changing? More people are playing RPG's these days, more people are buying them, and more games are being made and translated. Give it another five years and the new wave of consoles and they could be one of the best sellers on the market.

More people are playing video games in general these days. RPGs have "grown" in proportion with the rest of the industry, but haven't grown beyond their usual percentage of North American sales.

Are more RPGs being made and localized now than ever before? That's a fairly sweeping statement, one that strikes me as untrue, and I'd need to see some numbers (how many North American NES games were localized RPGs, how many Super NES games were localized RPGs, et cetera). I could do the research, but since you're the one making the claim, I'll leave it to you. :)

And, no, localized RPGs will NEVER surpass sports, driving, and shooting in the hearts of North American gamers. Not in five years, not in fifty. They'll have their cameo appearances on the best-seller lists, and that is all. It's a cultural thing. It's a nerdy/faggy thing.

-- Z.

[zmweasel]

Who said I was discounting his opinion? I just found the irony amusing.

I find it ironic that someone on a video game forum would try to undermine someone else's opinion because of his appearance. Let's see Promophile's picture and see how he fares.

Here's another picture of Cross that much better reflects his stand-up attitude:

http://www.alismith.com/portraits/large/david-cross.gif


Yes, that's a rather over-geeked out picture of him, but you have to admit, the guy comes off as rather geeky in general.

The guy looks geeky when he's ACTING. Are you familiar with his body of work? He's anything but geeky with his comedy.

-- Z.

[Promophile]

So now you're equating Madden to Jessica Simpson (?!)

Yep



cursing North American gamers for having no taste

Do you think they have good taste!??!? Is it good taste when a decent game like, for example, Beyond Good and Evil does so horrible that it is marked down to 5 dollars in less than a year but Madden NFL 2005 takes up FOUR of the top 10 spots in August?




In the latest issue of Surge is an interview with David Cross, who did voice acting for both Halo 2 and GTA: San Andreas, in which he's asked if he plays RPGs. His response? "Nope. Way too faggy. Sorry. Way too nerdy-faggy. Sorry guys. I gotta draw the line somewhere." And that's the attitude of the mainstream gamer.


So we are supposed to laud some retarded 3rd rate actors opinion as fact because he did some voices in GTA and Halo 2? Sorry, that doesn't give him any credibility. Calling RPGs "Faggy" proves he has the intelligence of a 3rd grader. Comparing him to Albert Einstien is an insult. He doesn't speak for "mainstream gamers", he speaks for "people who bought a PS2 to play Madden and GTA".



I find it ironic that someone on a video game forum would try to undermine someone else's opinion because of his appearance. Let's see Promophile's picture and see how he fares.


Wow so in otherwords you think everyone who visits video game forums is fugly. It appears that you are right

http://ww2.netnitco.net/~rustedshut/apt/apt2/images/pirate_nun_01.jpg

I may be a pirate but I'm also a nun, so make fun of my looks and you will go to hell.

[zmweasel]

So now you're equating Madden to Jessica Simpson (?!)

Yep

The former is the most popular video game sports franchise in history, beloved by millions, worshipped by critics, a cornerstone of the world's #1 software publisher. The latter is an air-headed B-list pop star. There's no comparison.


Do you think they have good taste!??!? Is it good taste when a decent game like, for example, Beyond Good and Evil does so horrible that it is marked down to 5 dollars in less than a year but Madden NFL 2005 takes up FOUR of the top 10 spots in August?

Beyond Good and Evil and Madden NFL 2005 are both great games. It's a damn shame that BG&E didn't sell, but it's hardly the first great game to flop at retail, and it won't be the last. Does it reflect a lack of taste on the part of mainstream gamers? Not at all. It simply wasn't a game that most people wanted to play.


So we are supposed to laud some retarded voice actors opinion as fact because he did some voices in GTA and Halo 2? Sorry, that doesn't give him any credibility. Calling RPGs "Faggy" proves he has the intelligence of a 3rd grader. Comparing him to Albert Einstien is an insult. He doesn't speak for "mainstream gamers", he speaks for "people who bought a PS2 to play Madden and GTA".

"Retarded," David Cross is most defintely not. Listen to a couple of his comedy albums. He's a razor-sharp stand-up.

I used the picture of Einstein to make the point that just because you're making a funny face for the camera doesn't mean you're retarded, or that your ideas and opinions don't matter.

And by speaking for people who bought a PS2 to play Madden and GTA, Cross DOES speak for mainstream gamers.

-- Z.

[Berserker]

Who said I was discounting his opinion? I just found the irony amusing.

I find it ironic that someone on a video game forum would try to undermine someone else's opinion because of his appearance. Let's see Promophile's picture and see how he fares.


Yes, that's a rather over-geeked out picture of him, but you have to admit, the guy comes off as rather geeky in general.

The guy looks geeky when he's ACTING. Are you familiar with his body of work? He's anything but geeky in his comedy.

-- Z.

I'm a huge Mr. Show fan. Of course he doesn't come off as geeky there, he's playing several different characters. But, I've seen his stand-up routine, I've seen him on Dinner for Five, even discounting the cameo in MIB 2, the guy just comes off as geeky in general to me. That's just my opinion. And I'm pretty sure Dave wouldn't shed any tears if he read it, since it's so obvious that I'm trying to undermine his opinion here.

No, I think the reason you're up in arms is possibly because you think it undermines the point that YOU were trying to make. It doesn't.

As for the +1 by Promophile, well, that's Promophile. It's not me. I wasn't trying to "pwn" anyone with my post, I was just trying to lighten up the mood a little bit in here. He has his own opinions, as your have yours and I mine. And, personally, I don't agree with his in relation to the issue of this thread. I think it's nothing more than wishful thinking. But, that's just my personal opinion, which apparently means little to nothing now, because some other person responded positively to a post I made. Who's being undermined again? Oh, yes, that's right, Television and Movie's David Cross!

Here's the deal. I like David Cross. I like RPG's. The fact that one doesn't like the other does not upset me, nor does it lessen or "undermine" his opinion to me. And that's really all there is to it.

[Promophile]

The former is the most popular video game sports franchise in history, beloved by millions, worshipped by critics, a cornerstone of the world's #1 software publisher.


I'd take Tecmo Super Bowl over Madden any day of the week.




The latter is an air-headed B-list pop star. There's no comparison.

Both are overhyped to hell and more popular then they should be


"Retarded," David Cross is most defintely not. Listen to a couple of his comedy albums. He's a razor-sharp stand-up.

He may be a good comedian, but that doesn't qualify him as the "Albert Einstien" of video games,which you want to make him out to be.



And by speaking for people who bought a PS2 to play Madden and GTA, Cross DOES speak for mainstream gamers.


Then thats where we differ. I don't consider a person who bought a PS2 for Madden and GTA a gamer.

[zmweasel]

Wow so in otherwords you think everyone who visits video game forums is fugly. It appears that you are right

I don't think everyone who visits video game forums is ugly, but I certainly don't think you're in a position to laugh at someone else's appearance. Or, heck, maybe you ARE that shallow.

-- Z.

[Promophile]

I don't think you're in a position to laugh at someone else's appearance.


Sorry, I didn't know that we've met, because you sure as hell haven't seen a picture of me on the net. Whats next? yo mama jokes?

[Half Japanese]

I don't know how we went from Nintendo to David Cross (well, I do, but it's still quite a leap), but if you haven't heard his stand-up or seen Mr. Show, you're only robbing yourself.

Who can forget Fartin' Gary, the "World's Only Fartist?"

[zmweasel]

I'd take Tecmo Super Bowl over Madden any day of the week.

Tecmo Super Bowl still has a simplistic charm, but modern gamers want more realistic experiences. In fact, Tecmo's football offerings got progressively worse as gamers moved on to 16-bit and 32-bit consoles. Tecmo's PS1 football game was an atrocity.

Nothing wrong with playing the old stuff, of course. But you're in the vast, vast minority.


Both are overhyped to hell and more popular then they should be

Madden deserves the hype. It's more than earned it. And it's popular because it's a fantastic game. It's also the polar opposite of an RPG, which is most likely why you hate it. Reminds you of all the jocks in high school who pantsed you and dragged you around the track.


He may be a good comedian, but that doesn't qualify him as the "Albert Einstien" of video games,which you want to make him out to be.

It's Einstein. E before I. Twice.

And if you would (could?) read for comprehension, you would understand why I used a picture of Einstein to make my point. I'm not comparing Cross to Einstein.


Then thats where we differ. I don't consider a person who bought a PS2 for Madden and GTA a gamer.

Oh, so you're "hardcore." Riiight. I can tell because of your avatar, taken from the packaging of an RPG published and promoted by one of the world's largest video game companies.

-- Z.

[zmweasel]

No, I think the reason you're up in arms is possibly because you think it undermines the point that YOU were trying to make. It doesn't.

You may have been trying to lighten the mood, but what you did was give Promophile something to grasp onto. Not that he's going to "win" this "debate" because of it, but it's still annoying, and I was essentially required to respond.

-- Z.

[Promophile]

It Reminds you of all the jocks in high school who pantsed you and dragged you around the track.


Wow. You love going for those low blow personal attacks, don't ya LOL . Sorry, I won't sink to that level. Oh and by the way, I got along great with the jocks. It was the PE teachers I had problems with :) .



And if you would (could?) read for comprehension, you would understand why I used a picture of Einstein to make my point. I'm not comparing Cross to Einstein.

Yea I know, I just felt like yanking your chain.




Oh, so you're "hardcore." Riiight. I can tell because of your avatar, taken from the packaging of an RPG published and promoted by one of the world's largest video game companies.


no I don't consider myself "hardcore", but I started playing games at 4 years of age because I enjoyed them, not when I was 15 because all my friends told me "Madden and GTA are off da hook".

Oh and my avatar isn't the boxart for Earthbound, It's the store promo poster. Took me forever to find the thing, they are hella rare.

[calthaer]

Why do you waste words on the weasel, Promo? It's not even worth your time, man.

[ubersaurus]

Personally I think the weasel is right. He may be coming across acerbically, but you can't argue the sales data. As for game quality, that's just opinion, and the majority opinions tend to reflect game sales.

[SoulBlazer]

Yes, I agree that Zach has some good points. I just love to argue with him. ;)

Oh, and for my claim that more RPG's are being made now then in the past.....let's just look at the games translated for the North American market, since I imagine the rate of RPG's in Japan has been pretty steady for a long time. Grab a release list from, say, 1993 and 1998 and one from 2003. Mark off the games that are at least RPG in whole or part. Count them.

I can promise you that we'll have double the RPG's in 2003 from 1993, and a increase over 1998.

It's not so much that more games are being MADE -- just as that genre has grown in popularity in the States companies have found it more profitable to bring them over here. They would'nt be profitable unless people were buying them. If more games are being made then 10 years ago and they cost more with inflation factored in, then more people must be buying RPG's. It's pretty simple logic. ;)

I remember a time when I was a kid with the NES and SNES when we were lucky to get 3-5 RPG's released over here a YEAR. Now sometimes we get that a MONTH.

But we're really off topic here. Feel free to send me a PM or make a new thread if you want to continue this. ;) I love RPG's, I know everyone does'nt, but I just don't agree with them being a 'niche' genre anymore. The sales seem to suggest to me otherwise.

[zmweasel]

Why do you waste words on the weasel, Promo? It's not even worth your time, man.

C'mon, cal. You're stooping to NvrMore levels of dropping into a thread to provide moral support for whomever I'm "debating" at the moment. You're smarter and better than that. I don't mind that you dislike me, but your meaningless posts sadden me. You bring much-needed intelligence to this forum; don't abandon your smarts just because I'm poking holes in a teenager's faith-based opinions.

-- Z.

[zmweasel]

Yes, I agree that Zach has some good points. I just love to argue with him. ;)

Thanks, man. I enjoy our arguments, too. I'm a fan of putting your opinions out there to be closely analyzed and/or viciously attacked by your peers. "Localized RPGs aren't a niche genre in North America anymore" is a sweeping statement, one that deserves to be attacked. If it withstands the attack, fine. I swallow the cold, hard facts and change my thinking. If it doesn't, that's fine, too. It's too bad so few people have the self-confidence to discard an opinion when it proves to be flawed.

I would point out that last year's and this year's best-selling RPGs are North America-developed Xbox titles, the former with a triple-A license and the latter with a Microsoft marketing push, which does damage both to Promophile's theory of Japanese RPGs driving the video game industry and your theory of localized RPGs no longer being a niche category. Unless you're going to pull a Promophile and expand your definition to ALL role-playing games, regardless of national origin? :)


Oh, and for my claim that more RPG's are being made now then in the past.....let's just look at the games translated for the North American market, since I imagine the rate of RPG's in Japan has been pretty steady for a long time. Grab a release list from, say, 1993 and 1998 and one from 2003. Mark off the games that are at least RPG in whole or part. Count them.

I can promise you that we'll have double the RPG's in 2003 from 1993, and a increase over 1998.

Oh, you evil man. An even more sweeping statement! :) You're just dangling that in front of me because you know it'll FORCE me to do your research for you.

I would've used DP's online rarity guide, but the category listings don't seem to be implemented for everything. For example, Swords & Serpents didn't pop up as an NES first-person RPG, nor did Wizardry I and II. So I'll have to dig through release lists on my own. Urrgh.

We also have to decide on a proper definition of "RPG." Story-driven RPGs with turn-based combat? Of course. Strategy/RPGs? Indeed. Action/RPGs? Ehh...I wouldn't call Zelda an RPG, and a lot of non-geeky action games for the PS1 and PS2 have what could be considered RPG elements. So I'll have to use personal judgment there (and provide a list of the games I've included, so you can agree or disagree with my categorizations).

-- Z.

[LiquidX01]

My........What has happened to this thread? :/

I knew the fanboy crap would happen. I dont know...But I would like to say that, since someone brought up Jessica Simpson, I would like to add that she is frucking HOT even though she as dumb as a nail.

There was absolutely no point in this post, But I figured I would add my piece to further highjack the shit out of this thread. :evil:

So.....How bout d'em Yankees? LOL

[chaoticjelly]

buyers often custom-configure enough upgrades to push their final bills past $3,000.

If that isn't B/S then I dont know what is... $3000

You can get a kick ass customised pc for $1000

[NvrMore]

Why do you waste words on the weasel, Promo? It's not even worth your time, man.

C'mon, cal. You're stooping to NvrMore levels of dropping into a thread to provide moral support for whomever I'm "debating" at the moment. You're smarter and better than that. I don't mind that you dislike me, but your meaningless posts sadden me. You bring much-needed intelligence to this forum; don't abandon your smarts just because I'm poking holes in a teenager's faith-based opinions.

-- Z.

Here have a little sugar from daddy, take that bitter taste from your mouth.

This thread is a truly shocking surprise though. Yet again another thread dragged down, coincidentally after and through the interjection and "participation" of the spiritual emissary of the ign-board mentality, zmweasel. Shocking, I tell you.. just shocking.

Taking bitchy little troll shots at random and without any ralation to the topic or posters participating therin however, now that's going for the gamefaq gold.

Damn it's good that the mods/admin like to wipe your arse and look the other way.

Z -- working for a gamefaq tomorrow.

[zmweasel]

Are you still nursing your conspiracy theory that the mods are showing me favoritism? As when Sniderman failed to lock the thread that was a blatantly obvious personal attack on the magazine I edit? In addition, I was scolded by him for pointing out the nature of the thread instead of "turning the other cheek."

The mods haven't booted me because I bring well-informed opinions and cold, hard facts to the forums, whereas you bring nothing. Your entire post is "bitchy little troll shots."

-- Z.

[digitalpress]

Taking bitchy little troll shots at random and without any ralation to the topic or posters participating therin however, now that's going for the gamefaq gold.

Damn it's good that the mods/admin like to wipe your arse and look the other way.

Pot calling kettle black award goes to: NvrMore.

In the very next breath you do your own "bitchy little troll shot".

The irony and the ignorance.

[Icarus Moonsight]

What was the subject of this thread again? O_O

[orangemage]

What was the subject of this thread again? O_O
yeah what is the long lost topic LOL

[zmweasel]

Oh, and for my claim that more RPG's are being made now then in the past.....let's just look at the games translated for the North American market, since I imagine the rate of RPG's in Japan has been pretty steady for a long time. Grab a release list from, say, 1993 and 1998 and one from 2003. Mark off the games that are at least RPG in whole or part. Count them.

I can promise you that we'll have double the RPG's in 2003 from 1993, and a increase over 1998.

It's not so much that more games are being MADE -- just as that genre has grown in popularity in the States companies have found it more profitable to bring them over here. They would'nt be profitable unless people were buying them. If more games are being made then 10 years ago and they cost more with inflation factored in, then more people must be buying RPG's. It's pretty simple logic. ;)

I remember a time when I was a kid with the NES and SNES when we were lucky to get 3-5 RPG's released over here a YEAR. Now sometimes we get that a MONTH.

Okay. Whew. I haven't compiled data for current systems yet, but I've used the DP online guide to compile data for the major North American game systems from the NES onward. The results:



Nintendo NES
771 N.A. Games / 22 Japanese RPGs (2.8% of library)

Genesis
705 N.A. Games / 21 Japanese RPGs (3.0% of library)

TG-16
94 N.A. Games / 4 Japanese RPGs (4.2% of library)

TG-CD
44 N.A. Games / 4 Japanese RPGs (9.0% of library)

Super NES
723 N.A. Games / 33 Japanese RPGs (4.5% of library)

Sega CD
149 N.A. Games / 6 Japanese RPGs (4.0% of library)

3DO
141 N.A. Games / 3 Japanese RPGs (2.1% of library)

Nintendo 64
298 N.A. Games / 5 Japanese RPGs (1.7% of library)

Saturn
250 N.A. Games / 12 Japanese RPGs (4.8% of library)

PlayStation
1318 N.A. Games / 71 Japanese RPGs (5.4% of library)

Dreamcast
252 N.A. Games / 9 Japanese RPGs (3.6% of library)



So. Is there an upward trend in the number of Japanese RPGs being localized for North America?

If you group contemporary systems...

NES
771 Games / 22 Japanese RPGs (2.8% of releases)

Genesis/TG-16/Super NES
1522 Games / 58 Japanese RPGs (3.8% of releases)

TG-CD/Sega CD/3DO
334 Games / 13 Japanese RPGs (3.9% of releases)

Nintendo 64/Saturn/PlayStation
1866 Games / 88 Japanese RPGs (4.7% of releases)

The answer: Yes, there's an upward trend. But is going from 2.8% to 4.7% proof that Japanese RPGs have evolved from niche to mainstream? No. It's proof that the advent of the CD-ROM made it possible for smaller North American publishers to afford the cost of localizing and publishing niche titles. Call it the Working Designs phenomenon: Victor Ireland could never have afforded to crank out several dozen cartridge RPGs.

Remove WD and Atlus's output from the PS library and its JRPG total drops from 71 JRPGs to 57, reducing the console's JRPG percentage from 5.4% to 4.3%, less than the Super NES.

Also, you said "I can promise you that we'll have double the RPG's in 2003 from 1993, and a increase over 1998." I haven't counted 2003 output yet, but...

Circa-'93 Systems (Genesis/TG-16/Super NES/TG-CD/Sega CD/3DO): 1856 Games, 71 JRPGs.

Circa-'98 Systems (Nintendo 64/Saturn/PlayStation): 1866 Games, 88 JRPGs.

Again, a slight upward trend, but not an explosion of Japanese RPGs by any means. Will there be 140-ish Japanese RPGs in North America for the PS2, Xbox, and GameCube when it's all over? I'll let YOU handle that preliminary count. :)

-- Z.

[bargora]

(researched statistics)
Well that must a have taken a while! As you say, whew.

I poke my head in here, not to attack anybody, nor because I have a particular interest in RPGs per se, but rather to raise a point and pose a question.

First, I notice that you (zmweasel) choose to analyze RPG releases as a percentage of total releases when arguing that RPGs (Japanese RPGs in particular) are a "niche" genre. I suspect that there are some who might disagree with this analysis, preferring to look at raw numbers of releases in support of their views. Can you give me a reason why change in percentage of overall releases is the best measure, rather than another measure, such as increase in raw numbers or releases, or increase in percentage of sales figures? I really don't know which is the best way to support one's view of the matter.

Also, I am wondering what percentage of (a) overall releases, (b) sales figures, or (c) some other measure gets a genre of games out the "niche" category, at least in your mind. I know that this raises difficulties in categorizing games, since they don't always fall neatly into single categories, but I was just wondering if you had some ballpark figure in mind, or if you could toss out some figures for the less niche genres off the top of your head. I suppose it is easiest to classify sports, FPS, and driving, for starters.

[zmweasel]

First, I notice that you (zmweasel) choose to analyze RPG releases as a percentage of total releases when arguing that RPGs (Japanese RPGs in particular) are a "niche" genre. I suspect that there are some who might disagree with this analysis, preferring to look at raw numbers of releases in support of their views. Can you give me a reason why change in percentage of overall releases is the best measure, rather than another measure, such as increase in raw numbers or releases, or increase in percentage of sales figures? I really don't know which is the best way to support one's view of the matter.

I've given both overall percentages of system librararies and the raw numbers of Japanese RPGs released for the various N.A. systems, so people can check out both stats. I think the overall percentage is a better number: for example, it puts the initially impressive total of 71 PS1 Japanese RPGs into the context of a 1,318-game library.

I'll also gladly supply my list of localized Japanese RPGs to anyone who wants to examine it and dispute any games that were or were not included.

I wish I could cite sales figures, but they're unavailable for all but the very best-selling games of the 8- and 16-bit eras. It wasn't until the PS1 era that NPD/TRST video game sales tracking began.


Also, I am wondering what percentage of (a) overall releases, (b) sales figures, or (c) some other measure gets a genre of games out the "niche" category, at least in your mind. I know that this raises difficulties in categorizing games, since they don't always fall neatly into single categories, but I was just wondering if you had some ballpark figure in mind, or if you could toss out some figures for the less niche genres off the top of your head. I suppose it is easiest to classify sports, FPS, and driving, for starters.

If I was feeling particularly nutzoid, I'd try to compile percentages for each of the major genres, but just putting together the RPG numbers fried my brain for the day. Maybe I'll tackle the PS1 library and go from there.

Also, genres have changed a lot between the 8-bit and current systems. Side-scrolling shooters and 2D fighting games used to be mainstream; now they're niche. Not to mention the interminable number of 8- and 16-bit side-scrolling platformers, some of which have very "lite" RPG elements.

Then there are those modern games with bits and pieces of many genres. Is GTA: San Andreas a driving game? Shooting game? Adventure game? Yes, yes, and yes.

You're absolutely right about the "easy" genres, though. Sports games, FPSes, and racing games are all self-evident. You could subdivide the racing genre into a few categories, but you could do the same with action/RPGs, strategy/RPGs, et cetera.

I think most would agree that 5% of a system's library, or 1 of every 20 games released for that system, is a niche. If the JPRG percentage for the current generation of hardware approaches, say, 7-8% (1 out of every 12-14 games), I'd call that damn close to mainstream.

-- Z.

[NeoVenom]

Another bashing of systems thread. -sighs-

[Promophile]

Why do you waste words on the weasel, Promo? It's not even worth your time, man.

Because it got kinda fun LOL . I'm suprised to see the man after relying on hard data for most of his arguments start calling my ugly and accusing me of being a nerd who got picked on in high school. Either way I stand by my claim. RPGs are no longer a Niche market, RPGs can break the top 10.

[Captain Wrong]

Madden deserves the hype. It's more than earned it. And it's popular because it's a fantastic game. It's also the polar opposite of an RPG, which is most likely why you hate it. Reminds you of all the jocks in high school who pantsed you and dragged you around the track.

Can I just state that quote made this entire pissing match of a thread worth reading? That's comedy gold right there, folks.

[zmweasel]

Why do you waste words on the weasel, Promo? It's not even worth your time, man.

Because it got kinda fun LOL . I'm suprised to see the man after relying on hard data for most of his arguments start calling my ugly and accusing me of being a nerd who got picked on in high school. Either way I stand by my claim. RPGs are no longer a Niche market, RPGs can break the top 10.

I never called you ugly. I said you should post your own picture, so we can mock it as you mocked the out-of-context, intentionally geeky picture of Cross.

And your original claim wasn't that Japanese RPGs occasionally reach the North American best-seller lists. Your latest claim isn't even a "claim"; it's a simple fact, like "claiming" the sun rises each morning.

Your original claim was the false belief that Japan is the primary force in the North American video game market. When I destroyed that claim with what you freely admit is hard data, you altered and downsized your claim. Now you're just restating the same facts that I initially pointed out to you, and trying to claim a measure of "victory" out of that. So, so sad.

-- Z.

[Ed Oscuro]

I'm suprised to see the man after relying on hard data for most of his arguments start calling my ugly and accusing me of being a nerd who got picked on in high school.
How else are we supposed to classify a self-avowed Mother/Earthbound nut? LOL

[Promophile]

I'm suprised to see the man after relying on hard data for most of his arguments start calling my ugly and accusing me of being a nerd who got picked on in high school.
How else are we supposed to classify a self-avowed Mother/Earthbound nut? LOL

A super-cool individual! Mother is up there with Final Fantasy and DW in popularity in Japan. I wish it would get that much respect here :( .

[SoulBlazer]

Wow, impessive data, Zach. I did'nt mean to make you dig THAT much, but it was fun to read. ;) Thanks for the hard information.

Okay, I can agree with you that one of the reasons that we see more RPG's over here is because of the cheaper costs of CD's. I was under the impression that the budget of a modern RPG on a CD is MUCH higher then the old cart based ones -- they are more expensive to produce. So while I'm sure that they can be brought over, translated, and released for less money then in the cart days, would'nt the cost of making the game in the first place have to be passed on?

And if the games were'nt selling well, why increase the number of them being brought over? You mentioned fighting and shooter games, which used to be huge 10 years ago but are clearly a niche market now, one I can fully agree with. RPG's, like sport games, have increased, and it seems action games have stayed quite steady.

Plus RPG's are subjected to another criteria that I touched on eariler -- used games. It happens for all genre's, but I strongly suspect that it happens the most with RPG's. Since the games don't have much replay value, they get turned in after they are beat -- another reason that they spike in the Top 10 in the first month and then they drop like a rock after, since tracking data does'nt include used games. But most people who I know off who play RPG's, myself included, buy just as many of them as used as opposed to new, and there's really no good way to track that.

Finally, in a effort to bring this topic back on to the original topic -- what do you see as the biggest mistakes Nintendo has made in not getting 3rd Publishers to make more games for the GameCube and how can they avoid that mistake with their new system?

[Promophile]

Oh, and for my claim that more RPG's are being made now then in the past.....let's just look at the games translated for the North American market, since I imagine the rate of RPG's in Japan has been pretty steady for a long time. Grab a release list from, say, 1993 and 1998 and one from 2003. Mark off the games that are at least RPG in whole or part. Count them.

I can promise you that we'll have double the RPG's in 2003 from 1993, and a increase over 1998.

It's not so much that more games are being MADE -- just as that genre has grown in popularity in the States companies have found it more profitable to bring them over here. They would'nt be profitable unless people were buying them. If more games are being made then 10 years ago and they cost more with inflation factored in, then more people must be buying RPG's. It's pretty simple logic. ;)

I remember a time when I was a kid with the NES and SNES when we were lucky to get 3-5 RPG's released over here a YEAR. Now sometimes we get that a MONTH.

Okay. Whew. I haven't compiled data for current systems yet, but I've used the DP online guide to compile data for the major North American game systems from the NES onward. The results:



Nintendo NES
771 N.A. Games / 22 Japanese RPGs (2.8% of library)

Genesis
705 N.A. Games / 21 Japanese RPGs (3.0% of library)

TG-16
94 N.A. Games / 4 Japanese RPGs (4.2% of library)

TG-CD
44 N.A. Games / 4 Japanese RPGs (9.0% of library)

Super NES
723 N.A. Games / 33 Japanese RPGs (4.5% of library)

Sega CD
149 N.A. Games / 6 Japanese RPGs (4.0% of library)

3DO
141 N.A. Games / 3 Japanese RPGs (2.1% of library)

Nintendo 64
298 N.A. Games / 5 Japanese RPGs (1.7% of library)

Saturn
250 N.A. Games / 12 Japanese RPGs (4.8% of library)

PlayStation
1318 N.A. Games / 71 Japanese RPGs (5.4% of library)

Dreamcast
252 N.A. Games / 9 Japanese RPGs (3.6% of library)



So. Is there an upward trend in the number of Japanese RPGs being localized for North America?

If you group contemporary systems...

NES
771 Games / 22 Japanese RPGs (2.8% of releases)

Genesis/TG-16/Super NES
1522 Games / 58 Japanese RPGs (3.8% of releases)

TG-CD/Sega CD/3DO
334 Games / 13 Japanese RPGs (3.9% of releases)

Nintendo 64/Saturn/PlayStation
1866 Games / 88 Japanese RPGs (4.7% of releases)

The answer: Yes, there's an upward trend. But is going from 2.8% to 4.7% proof that Japanese RPGs have evolved from niche to mainstream? No. It's proof that the advent of the CD-ROM made it possible for smaller North American publishers to afford the cost of localizing and publishing niche titles. Call it the Working Designs phenomenon: Victor Ireland could never have afforded to crank out several dozen cartridge RPGs.

Remove WD and Atlus's output from the PS library and its JRPG total drops from 71 JRPGs to 57, reducing the console's JRPG percentage from 5.4% to 4.3%, less than the Super NES.

Also, you said "I can promise you that we'll have double the RPG's in 2003 from 1993, and a increase over 1998." I haven't counted 2003 output yet, but...

Circa-'93 Systems (Genesis/TG-16/Super NES/TG-CD/Sega CD/3DO): 1856 Games, 71 JRPGs.

Circa-'98 Systems (Nintendo 64/Saturn/PlayStation): 1866 Games, 88 JRPGs.

Again, a slight upward trend, but not an explosion of Japanese RPGs by any means. Will there be 140-ish Japanese RPGs in North America for the PS2, Xbox, and GameCube when it's all over? I'll let YOU handle that preliminary count. :)

-- Z.

Yet isn't it funny how RPGs are almost always the most expensive games for older systems, and are usually considered the best games on most systems. Stating how many RPGs have come out as a total of games released for a system doesn't prove much. Most of the games released are fluff. RPGs take longer than most other games to develop AND TRANSLATE, which more than accounts for the lower number of RPGs released IN BOTH THE US AND JAPAN. What would it take for you to consider RPGs mainstream? In cetrain months almost half the top 10 have been RPGS. How is that not mainstream? Does your beloved David Cross have to start praising RPGs before you see them as mainstream?

[calthaer]

Madden deserves the hype. It's more than earned it. And it's popular because it's a fantastic game. It's also the polar opposite of an RPG, which is most likely why you hate it. Reminds you of all the jocks in high school who pantsed you and dragged you around the track.

Can I just state that quote made this entire pissing match of a thread worth reading? That's comedy gold right there, folks.

I was always of the opinion that those kind of comments were better off being left in the Battlezone.

[orangemage]

Yet isn't it funny how RPGs are almost always the most expensive games for older systems

games that are expensive is mostly caused by that game being RARE which is usally casued by a game not selling well so not many were produced



Stating how many RPGs have come out as a total of games released for a system doesn't prove much

well it proves that RPGs make up a small percent of the game market, i mean 5% and they drop off the charts super quick i still have to say RPGs are still a niche even if it's gotten bigger


A super-cool individual! Mother is up there with Final Fantasy and DW in popularity in Japan. I wish it would get that much respect here

damn right earthbound rules :rocker:

[kainemaxwell]

What's Jessica Simpson gotta do with a Gamecube anyway?

[NvrMore]

Pot calling kettle black award goes to: NvrMore.

In the very next breath you do your own "bitchy little troll shot".

The irony and the ignorance.

Pffft, why not join in the fun which is so very openly endorsed. Its not like I said anything that wasn't true. When in Rome.. ;)

..and, it's great to see a point re-affirmed with so little effort. Why, I might as well just have offered you the baby wipes.

Ahh, just thinking of why the BZ was removed.. the irony is glorious, absolutely fan-frigging-tastic.

[SoulBlazer]

Some people just need to stay out of some threads and let us serious posters talk. :roll:

[petewhitley]

A super-cool individual! Mother is up there with Final Fantasy and DW in popularity in Japan. I wish it would get that much respect here :( .

I used to live in Japan. My fiance is native Japanese. Videogame collectors are no cooler there than we are here. Sorry. :(

[LiquidX01]

What's Jessica Simpson gotta do with a Gamecube anyway?

They are both dumb?

Relax people it was only a joke. No I dont think the GCN is dumb...

[Berserker]

What's Jessica Simpson gotta do with a Gamecube anyway?

They both once had to struggle with embarrassing acne..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v348/natev/acne_jessica_simpson_01.jpg
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That is, until they discovered the Proactiv® Solution to skin care:

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Now that they're no longer held back by embarrassing acne, they're now free to live life to the fullest, and look their best doing it!

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*not really.

[Ed Oscuro]

This message brought to you by Proactiv®* and Friends For Better Console Skin Care™*
This PRODUCT changed MY life! LOL

[evildead2099]

third party support is key, and the GC is a distant third in this department; and this goes for all genres

((BIG Q: WHY? WHY?

Karma. Maybe fate is paying Nintendo back for monopolising the industry in the late 80s / early 90s.

[Ed Oscuro]

I thought Nintendo already paid for that with those great little coupons they sent everybody LOL

[Promophile]

I thought Nintendo already paid for that with those great little coupons they sent everybody LOL

Meh I'm still pissed I lost the auction for one of these COMPLETE in envolope with the letter and all. Damn computer problems.

[SoulBlazer]

Oh man, that Simpson post is LOL LOL LOL

[orangemage]

well were talking about Nintendo again, almost back on topic LOL

[Zubiac666]

Gamecube dead?
k. x_x
there are plenty of awesome games still coming out (geist,odama,neww Zelda etc)

"washington-Post my ass"

[evildead2099]

I thought Nintendo already paid for that with those great little coupons they sent everybody LOL

Didn't Nintendo require its customers to send in store receipts, serial numbers, and UPC cut-outs in order to entitle them to receive the said coupons?

[zmweasel]

Wow, impessive data, Zach. I did'nt mean to make you dig THAT much, but it was fun to read. ;) Thanks for the hard information.

I'm working on a PS1 library breakdown, but I'll start a separate thread for that. I want to analyze other popular systems as well, although those breakdowns won't be as interesting, because there are soooooo many 8- and 16-bit side-view platformers.


Okay, I can agree with you that one of the reasons that we see more RPG's over here is because of the cheaper costs of CD's. I was under the impression that the budget of a modern RPG on a CD is MUCH higher then the old cart based ones -- they are more expensive to produce. So while I'm sure that they can be brought over, translated, and released for less money then in the cart days, would'nt the cost of making the game in the first place have to be passed on?

RPG budgets have gone up, but so have budgets in every genre. CD-ROM and more powerful tech raised the bar for everyone.

Is the cost of developing a Japanese RPG passed on to the North American market? Not really.

If it's a Japanese RPG from a company with a North American branch, the company simply absorbs the cost of localization, which is a trifle by comparison to the cost of development. Localization is the primary function of most N.A. branches of Japanese companies, so the companies are essentially paying their localization costs in advance, not passing them on.

If it's a Japanese RPG from a company without a North American branch, the North American licensor is only paying for the rights to release the game in North America. On occasion, the Japanese company aids in the localization process (beyond the expected delivery of source code), but it's not paid for anything above and beyond the licensing fee, since the N.A. release is gravy for the Japanese company.

Example: Victor picked up Vanguard Bandits from a near-bankrupt Human for a very reasonable price. Human wasn't trying to squeeze Victor for any of the development costs; it was just trying to squeeze some cash out of a game that sold poorly in Japan, and that only Victor was expressing interest in.

N.A. licensing costs have gone up over time, but again, that's hardly exclusive to RPGs.


And if the games were'nt selling well, why increase the number of them being brought over? You mentioned fighting and shooter games, which used to be huge 10 years ago but are clearly a niche market now, one I can fully agree with. RPG's, like sport games, have increased, and it seems action games have stayed quite steady.

I never said RPGs weren't selling well. Japanese RPGs have always sold to a rabid fanbase. It's a genre with an almost guaranteed level of sales, one that--combined with the affordability of optical discs--allows smaller publishers like Working Designs and Atlus to survive in the North American market, and larger publishers to turn a modest but easy profit.

But a rabid fanbase is not a mainstream fanbase. Lunar: SSSC was the biggest hit Working Designs ever had and ever will have, selling a quarter-million copies. That's HUGE by RPG standards. Only the Final Fantasy games sell better than that in North America. The sleeper hit Disgaea only moved, last I heard, 100-150K--which is, again, HUGE for the RPG genre. 50K is a much more typical number for a Japanese RPG.

And because the sales are front-loaded (a phenomenon not exclusive to RPGs, but exhibited by virtually all of them), the games can hit the best-seller list for a month, especially during the first and second quarters. We'll see what the November and December lists look like, but I don't expect to see any Japanese RPGs on them.


Plus RPG's are subjected to another criteria that I touched on eariler -- used games. It happens for all genre's, but I strongly suspect that it happens the most with RPG's. Since the games don't have much replay value, they get turned in after they are beat -- another reason that they spike in the Top 10 in the first month and then they drop like a rock after, since tracking data does'nt include used games. But most people who I know off who play RPG's, myself included, buy just as many of them as used as opposed to new, and there's really no good way to track that.

No, there isn't. And once we move away from verifiable sales figures, we veer into the strange world of anecdotal evidence, where six Americans a day are killed by exploding PlayStation 2s.


Finally, in a effort to bring this topic back on to the original topic -- what do you see as the biggest mistakes Nintendo has made in not getting 3rd Publishers to make more games for the GameCube and how can they avoid that mistake with their new system?

I could ramble about this topic for days, but I'll limit myself to a few thoughts.

Nintendo will never be able to shake its kiddie image, if in fact it even wants to. The GameCube looks like a PlaySkool toy, and its start-up sequence is accompanied by a cartoon-like ditty. Many third-party developers and publishers are interested in developing games for teenagers and adults, and they don't perceive the GameCube as having those demographics, and they're right.

Nintendo has always been reliant on first-party titles to sell the hardware, which is fine, except that Nintendo's big franchises (except Metroid) are all for children, and the North American market has exploded because of teenagers and adults--the "casuals."

The Wind Waker was a fine game, but its cel-shaded graphics seared Nintendo's kiddie image into gamers' brains. It was the beginning of the end for the Cube when enthusiast magazines had to beg their readers not to reject Wind Waker because it looked like a preschool product. (The next Zelda is going for a mature makeover, but Soul Calibur II's non-cartoony Link looked like a creepy cosplayer, so I'm not exactly thrilled.)

When your first-party titles aren't reaching beyond the hardcore (who ironically got hooked on Nintendo when it was mainstream), and your demographics aren't clicking with third parties...you've got a system that doesn't sell, even when it's cheaper and far more readily available than the competition.

How can Nintendo reverse this trend with its next console?

First, design it with a mature aesthetic. The DS was a positive step in that direction, even if they had to redesign the whole damn thing at the last minute. Don't offer a purple version of the Revolution. Make it look cool, not "cute."

Second, do whatever it takes to come up with grown-up franchises. No more Pikmins and Animal Crossings. Work with more American developers, as with Metroid Prime. This one will be much harder to implement, as Shigeru Miyamoto, legend that he is, has never demonstrated that he knows how to design games for adults. He's a 50-year-old kid.

Third, make any concessions necessary to bring back the third parties. Wipe out any and all memories of the late-'80s/early'90s Nintendo, which only relaxed its abusive third-party practices when the U.S. government was swooping in. (I have a dream of making every Nintendo fanboy read "Game Over" cover to cover, A Clockwork Orange-style, to enlighten them on the dubious past of the company to which they've pledged their souls.)

-- Z.