The Gamecube is dead ! serious, "The Post" said so

[zmweasel]

Yet isn't it funny how RPGs are almost always the most expensive games for older systems, and are usually considered the best games on most systems. Stating how many RPGs have come out as a total of games released for a system doesn't prove much. Most of the games released are fluff. RPGs take longer than most other games to develop AND TRANSLATE, which more than accounts for the lower number of RPGs released IN BOTH THE US AND JAPAN. What would it take for you to consider RPGs mainstream? In cetrain months almost half the top 10 have been RPGS. How is that not mainstream? Does your beloved David Cross have to start praising RPGs before you see them as mainstream?

RPGs are the most expensive games for older systems because they're one of the most popular genres among the ultra-hardcore contingent who collect older systems, and because most RPGs are printed in fairly small quantities. Modest demand exceeds limited supply.

Are RPGs "the best games on most systems"? Only a self-confessed RPG fan such as yourself would make or believe such a claim.

Stating the percentage of JRPGs released for the various systems proves that the genre hasn't "exploded" in North America, and that it hasn't fueled the growth of the North American video game market, as you claimed. It's benefited from that growth, but not fueled it.

"Most of the games released are fluff" is a meaningless statement that confirms your RPG fandom, and your inability to recognize other genres as more important and popular in North America.

I already mentioned in an earlier post what I would consider to be a decent benchmark of JRPGs as a mainstream genre.

Japanese RPGs certainly have their place in the market, but that place is a niche. They will never supplant sports games, action/adventure games, racing games, and shooting games as the staples of North America. I enjoy playing them, and I enjoyed localizing them, but I understand and accept why most of them will only appeal to hardcore gamers.

Question: What do you think of the FF series, the one JRPG franchise to penetrate the North American mainstream (thanks to Sony)? I have a hunch how you'll respond.

-- Z.

[zmweasel]

Here's a recent list of the 20 best-selling games of all time, to put the role of Japanese RPGs in the North American market further into perspective.

1) Super Mario Bros. (NES) - 40 Million
2) Tetris (Game Boy) - 33 Million
3) Super Mario Bros. 3 (NES) 18 Million
4) Super Mario World (SNES) - 17 Million
5) Super Mario Land (Game Boy) - 14 Million
6) Super Mario 64 (N64) - 11 Million
7) The Sims (PC) - 10 Million
8) Super Mario Bros. 2 (NES) - 10 Million
9) Grand Theft Auto: Vice City (PS2) - 8.5 Million
10) Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone (PS1) - 8 Million
11) GoldenEye (N64) - 8 Million
12) Donkey Kong Country (SNES) - 8 Million
13) Super Mario Kart (SNES) - 8 Million
14) Pokemon Red/Blue (Game Boy) - 8 Million
15) Half-Life (PC) - 8 Million
16) Tomb Raider II (PS1) - 8 Million
17) Final Fantasy VII (PS1) - 7.8 Million
18) Myst (PC) - 7 Million
19) Gran Turismo 3 (PS2) - 7 Million
20) Dragon Warrior VII (PS1) - 6 Million

There are three RPGs on the list. Pokemon was (and is) a kiddie-driven phenomenon, as huge in Japan as in the States, and only arguably falling into the RPG category. (I doubt the average preteen Pokemon fan would know what an "RPG" is.)

Final Fantasy VII was huge in Japan, and fueled by Sony's massive marketing campaign. It was a milestone for the genre in North America, no doubt about it, but it was shoved down casual gamers' throats and cleverly promoted as an epic adventure, not an "RPG."

The vast majority of Dragon Warrior VII's sales were in Japan; it tanked in North America. (The English localization was horrific, inexplicably farmed out to a fansite crew. Man, could I rant about that for years.)

None of the three supports the perception that Japanese RPGs are a mainstream North American genre.

This list also demonstrates what a friggin' juggernaut Nintendo was in the late '80s and early '90s, and how important Tetris was to the success of the Game Boy.

Halo 1 and/or 2 will almost certainly make the list before they're done--Halo 1 might already be on it--as will GTA: San Andreas.

-- Z.

[Captain Wrong]

(I have a dream of making every Nintendo fanboy read "Game Over" cover to cover, A Clockwork Orange-style, to enlighten them on the dubious past of the company to which they've pledged their souls.)

You're not the only one. As I've said before, every little thing Nintendo fanyboys rail on Sony for is a page straight out of Nintendo's playbook back when they had the muscle to accomplish such things.

Oh and if used prices are supposed to be an indicator of a genre's mainstream popularity, shouldn't we be talking about how shmups are mainstream? I'll trade you prices for collecting shmups for Saturn and PC Engine to prices for collecting RPGs for every system combined anyday.

[Promophile]

Here's a recent list of the 20 best-selling games of all time, to put the role of Japanese RPGs in the North American market further into perspective.

1) Super Mario Bros. (NES) - 40 Million
2) Tetris (Game Boy) - 33 Million
3) Super Mario Bros. 3 (NES) 18 Million
4) Super Mario World (SNES) - 17 Million
5) Super Mario Land (Game Boy) - 14 Million
6) Super Mario 64 (N64) - 11 Million
7) The Sims (PC) - 10 Million
8) Super Mario Bros. 2 (NES) - 10 Million
9) Grand Theft Auto: Vice City (PS2) - 8.5 Million
10) Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone (PS1) - 8 Million
11) GoldenEye (N64) - 8 Million
12) Donkey Kong Country (SNES) - 8 Million
13) Super Mario Kart (SNES) - 8 Million
14) Pokemon Red/Blue (Game Boy) - 8 Million
15) Half-Life (PC) - 8 Million
16) Tomb Raider II (PS1) - 8 Million
17) Final Fantasy VII (PS1) - 7.8 Million
18) Myst (PC) - 7 Million
19) Gran Turismo 3 (PS2) - 7 Million
20) Dragon Warrior VII (PS1) - 6 Million

There are three RPGs on the list. Pokemon was (and is) a kiddie-driven phenomenon, as huge in Japan as in the States, and only arguably falling into the RPG category. (I doubt the average preteen Pokemon fan would know what an "RPG" is.)

Final Fantasy VII was huge in Japan, and fueled by Sony's massive marketing campaign. It was a milestone for the genre in North America, no doubt about it, but it was shoved down casual gamers' throats and cleverly promoted as an epic adventure, not an "RPG."

The vast majority of Dragon Warrior VII's sales were in Japan; it tanked in North America. (The English localization was horrific, inexplicably farmed out to a fansite crew. Man, could I rant about that for years.)

None of the three supports the perception that Japanese RPGs are a mainstream North American genre.

This list also demonstrates what a friggin' juggernaut Nintendo was in the late '80s and early '90s, and how important Tetris was to the success of the Game Boy.

Halo 1 and/or 2 will almost certainly make the list before they're done--Halo 1 might already be on it--as will GTA: San Andreas.

-- Z.

Your kinda missing something. of the top 20 games of all time, 3 are RPGs. That would be 15 percent of the top 20. You would assume that if RPGs weren't mainstream, and given that most systems have an RPG percentage below 4 percent, that the percentage of RPG games in the top 20 would be at the very least 3 times smaller. Sports games are always selling really well, but I don't see a single one anywhere on that list.

[zmweasel]

Your kinda missing something. of the top 20 games of all time, 3 are RPGs. That would be 15 percent of the top 20. You would assume that if RPGs weren't mainstream, and given that most systems have an RPG percentage below 4 percent, that the percentage of RPG games in the top 20 would be at the very least 3 times smaller. Sports games are always selling really well, but I don't see a single one anywhere on that list.

You're not reading for comprehension--as usual. I already explained why those games do NOT prove Japanese RPGs are part of the North American mainstream. But I'll try again:

Pokemon was (and is) a kiddie-driven phenomenon, as huge in Japan as in the States, and only arguably falling into the RPG category. (I doubt the average preteen Pokemon fan would know what an "RPG" is.)

Final Fantasy VII was huge in Japan, and fueled by Sony's massive marketing campaign. It was a milestone for the genre in North America, no doubt about it, but it was shoved down casual gamers' throats and cleverly promoted as an epic adventure, not an "RPG."

The vast majority of Dragon Warrior VII's sales were in Japan; it tanked in North America.

In short: All three of the RPGs on the list made the list on the strength of their popularity in JAPAN, not North America.

No one is arguing that RPGs aren't a mainstream genre in Japan. But they're not a mainstream genre in North America. Never have been, never will be.

In addition: Dragon Warrior VII and Final Fantasy VII will likely be bumped off the list by Halo 1 (or 2) and GTA: San Andreas, which are big in North America and Europe, leaving one RPG in the top 20--or 5%.

Madden is usually on the year-to-year best-seller lists, but doesn't make the all-time list because (duh) it receives yearly installments. Add up the total sales of the Madden franchise and it's about 20 million copies, which would rate third on the all-time list.

You didn't answer my question: What do you think of the Final Fantasy series, the one JRPG franchise to penetrate the North American mainstream?

-- Z.

[SoulBlazer]

Great information again. Thanks for the read.

I'm really surprised to see how few copies of RPG's like Disagara and Lunar sold, but again I can't help but think about the 'used game' situation. It seems to most adversly affect RPG's. For example, I bought the Final Fantasy's new, but almost everything else (Suikoden 3, Star Ocean 3, Xenosaga) was used. And with no way of tracking used sales, I can't help but wonder if as many as HALF of all RPG's game bought in the wild are actually used copies and not new. So if you have a game that everyone loves and gets a lot of hype but is very short -- maybe Fable? -- but only sells 250,000 copies, as many as 400,000 people could own the game at one time.

I stand corrected that RPG's are not as big as I thought they were, and the growth rate is not as huge as I imagined, but I'm still convienced that the genre will just continue growing. They WILL be big in North America one day, mark my words. ;)

Oh, and I know you did'nt ask ME, but I'm not one of those 'die harders' who hate Final Fantasy for what it did. Indeed, I respect and admire and love the franchise dearly. It's what got me into RPG's as a kid in the first place. I still buy every one on day one of release (including Dawn of Souls last week), treat them like a fine wine, and never sell them. And it's also what I've used to get my friends into RPG's -- start them off with a easy game in the series, then encourge them to branch out. It does help that it has such mainstream apeal.....Square pulled a lot of casual gamers in with FF7, but I wonder how many of them stayed. Well, I don't worship FF7 like many others do (although I don't think there's been a BAD game in the franchise) so maybe that's for the best. LOL

[Promophile]

You didn't answer my question: What do you think of the Final Fantasy series, the one JRPG franchise to penetrate the North American mainstream?


I love FF6 and 7, and thought FF8 was decent. I've never really been into FF1 or 2 , I don't like how you choose classes. I don't like 9, especially due to the STUPID strat guide which basically says "check the web" over and over. FFX just wasn't for me. I didn't like the weapon / item systems, or the grid system. FFX-2, gameplay wise, I enjoyed.

[RCM]

Where was this top 20 list taken from? I've seen conflicting numbers on many of those titles. I wonder why Duckhunt didn't make the top 20. That Mario/Duckhunt cart had to have sold in the multimillions. Isn't counting pack-ins kinda misleading?

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

[zmweasel]

Great information again. Thanks for the read.

No sweat. I love diggin' up the facts & figures, as few of them as there are in the gaming biz.


I stand corrected that RPG's are not as big as I thought they were, and the growth rate is not as huge as I imagined, but I'm still convienced that the genre will just continue growing.

I hope it does, too. And, hell, we haven't even talked about North American RPGs, which are kicking all sorts of ass in this generation of hardware. Fable has already sold (in) one million copies worldwide, I'm pretty sure KotOR topped a million, and Morrowind is an Xbox best-seller. I'd readily agree that American RPGs on the Xbox are a helluva lot closer to the mainstream than Japanese RPGs on the PS2.

-- Z.

[zmweasel]

Where was this top 20 list taken from? I've seen conflicting numbers on many of those titles. I wonder why Duckhunt didn't make the top 20. That Mario/Duckhunt cart had to have sold in the multimillions. Isn't counting pack-ins kinda misleading?

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

Most of the numbers on the list are from the publishers themselves, which I realize is sketchy, but which is the best info we'll ever get, especially for pre-NPD releases.

Are your conflicting numbers higher or lower than the ones in the list?

And, yeah, the pack-in debate is ever ongoing. I don't mind their inclusion, but I can understand why others would.

-- Z.

[Mad Chemist]

Isn't counting pack-ins kinda misleading?


And if you're counting pack-ins and PC titles, shouldn't "Minesweeper" and "Solitaire" take up some of the top slots? They come with Windows, and how many Windows PCs are out there?

[zmweasel]

Isn't counting pack-ins kinda misleading?


And if you're counting pack-ins and PC titles, shouldn't "Minesweeper" and "Solitaire" take up some of the top slots? They come with Windows, and how many Windows PCs are out there?

Minesweeper and Solitaire are included with the Windows operating system, not with a game console, or with specific PCs, so they aren't really "pack-ins." Certainly, Microsoft doesn't use them as key selling points--"Buy Windows today and get a free copy of Minesweeper!" And I don't think you'd be able to convince anyone that Windows should be counted as a video game. But it's true that Minesweeper and Solitaire are usually counted as "games" by most of the absurd "studies" that claim 50% of gamers are female.

-- Z.

[NE146]

#1. Isn't this a collector's board? Who cares about the "mainstream" gamer.. if there's anything this board is full of, it sure as hell aint that! LOL

As for myself, I'm not really interested in the lifespan and marketibility of systems. Sure I watch the companies successes and failures. But in the end, it doesn't really matter to me as long as I myself end up with my copy of whatever it is they put out and can add it to my library until I die. That's about it. Let the market do what it does over the years. I just wanna collect it.

Personally although I do agree that the GC looks toyish (which I like btw), I don't agree with with assumption that the ps2/xbox look "mature" or even "cool"! There's nothing mature about it.. it's just a friggin black box. If anything the mature and cool assumption is just another attitude destined to be dated in another 10-20 years or so as demographic mindsets shift and change. Member's only jackets used to look cool (not to me of course though. *cough*).. and so did wood paneling on electronics. Who knows.. in a couple of years the Gamecube could look ultra "cool and retro-chic" while the Xbox and ps2 stand out as the dinosaur looking relics (albeit still collectible) as we fill our living rooms with the new modern green day-glo electronics. LOL Design tastes always change... but I wouldn't call one more mature over the other. :)

[RCM]

Most of the numbers on the list are from the publishers themselves, which I realize is sketchy, but which is the best info we'll ever get, especially for pre-NPD releases.

Are your conflicting numbers higher or lower than the ones in the list?

And, yeah, the pack-in debate is ever ongoing. I don't mind their inclusion, but I can understand why others would.

Example of a conflicting number ive seen:

You have SMB3(NES) at 18 million. I've seen 17 and 19 million. Not a big deal either way. Still a mega title. I wish I had links but I don't.

Most conflicting numbers ive seen are only off by a million or two. I've seen Vice City and GTA3 as having sold over 10 million a piece. I wish the game industry would adopt a top ten sales systems akin to the film industry. That would help eliminate debate and uncertainty about sales numbers. I've heard that most publishers do not like posting their sales numbers.

I don't mind the inclusion either. But letting people know that a title sold big because it was a pack-in would be helpful.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

[RCM]

#1. Isn't this a collector's board? Who cares about the "mainstream" gamer

I "care" about the mainstream gamer. If they don't buy the games I like the games I like won't be made anymore. Hardcore gamers are very vocal and are very small in numbers. So if you actually play games they matter a lot.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

[NE146]

If they don't buy the games I like the games I like won't be made anymore.

Then that will make the games you like rare! And very collectible! :D Better stock up on them now while they're cheap LOL

[RCM]

Then that will make the games you like rare! And very collectible! Better stock up on them now while they're cheap

I'm not a collector. Games are better in a game system being played then on a shelf collecting dust. No offense to collectors.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

[Mad Chemist]

Minesweeper and Solitaire are included with the Windows operating system, not with a game console, or with specific PCs, so they aren't really "pack-ins."

The point, really, is that your list of games is misleading if you're counting games that sold simply because they were included with a system. When I went to buy my SNES (when they were current), no local stores had a package that DIDN'T contain the Super Mario World cartridge. I suck at Super Mario games ... the last thing I need is another one. :).

It's sorta like saying that Combat is the best-selling Atari 2600 game, and Keith Courage is the best-selling TG-16 game. Is that really useful in judging the populatiry of the games themselves?

Also, why include PC games at all in a list in an argument about the market for console games in North America? A "top 20 console games of all time" might make your point a little better.



it's true that Minesweeper and Solitaire are usually counted as "games" by most of the absurd "studies" that claim 50% of gamers are female.


Er, they ARE games, and could be used to prove that 50% of people who play electronic games are female. But that's a different argument from 50% of "gamers" ... :)

[SoulBlazer]

I think some of the reason that American RPG's are doing a little better is because Japanese and American RPG's are totally different.

Japanese RPG's are console games, with a heavy emphasis on music, story, charcters, and puzzles. I enjoy that suff, but I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, and bad translations and slow game play can hurt them.

American RPG's have their roots in computer games, and are starting to get ported over to the console market. Morrowind started as a PC game, KOTOR got a better version for the PC, and I'll be shocked if Fable does'nt make it to the PC at some point. Very few console RPG's get ported to the PC (FF7 and 8 being the only ones I can think of right now).

(On a related note, was'nt Working Designs going to port Lunar Silver Star Complete to the PC? How did that work and what happened there?)

Anyway, American RPG's are more battle centric, with a lot of 'hack and slash' gameplay and faster battles, heavy use of graphics, and playing with more then one person. Designed by Americans, they will do better in the United States. That's true with any genre.

I'd be happy to see both types of RPG's continue to grow, but I've always prefered the Japanese RPG's myself. With some excpetions -- Morrowind owned me for six months. LOL

[Promophile]

I think some of the reason that American RPG's are doing a little better is because Japanese and American RPG's are totally different.

Japanese RPG's are console games, with a heavy emphasis on music, story, charcters, and puzzles. I enjoy that suff, but I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, and bad translations and slow game play can hurt them.

American RPG's have their roots in computer games, and are starting to get ported over to the console market. Morrowind started as a PC game, KOTOR got a better version for the PC, and I'll be shocked if Fable does'nt make it to the PC at some point. Very few console RPG's get ported to the PC (FF7 and 8 being the only ones I can think of right now).

(On a related note, was'nt Working Designs going to port Lunar Silver Star Complete to the PC? How did that work and what happened there?)

Anyway, American RPG's are more battle centric, with a lot of 'hack and slash' gameplay and faster battles, heavy use of graphics, and playing with more then one person. Designed by Americans, they will do better in the United States. That's true with any genre.

I'd be happy to see both types of RPG's continue to grow, but I've always prefered the Japanese RPG's myself. With some excpetions -- Morrowind owned me for six months. LOL

Grandia 2 has a PC version, and lots of others too. For the short story, WD wasn't able to release Lunar on the PC due to "not being able to get some program delivered". To appease people they released a fanart version of Lunar for PS1. I think ZM may be able to explain it better, I think he may have worked with Vic.

[goatdan]

Here's a recent list of the 20 best-selling games of all time, to put the role of Japanese RPGs in the North American market further into perspective.

1) Super Mario Bros. (NES) - 40 Million
2) Tetris (Game Boy) - 33 Million
3) Super Mario Bros. 3 (NES) 18 Million
4) Super Mario World (SNES) - 17 Million
5) Super Mario Land (Game Boy) - 14 Million
6) Super Mario 64 (N64) - 11 Million
7) The Sims (PC) - 10 Million
8) Super Mario Bros. 2 (NES) - 10 Million
9) Grand Theft Auto: Vice City (PS2) - 8.5 Million
10) Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone (PS1) - 8 Million
11) GoldenEye (N64) - 8 Million
12) Donkey Kong Country (SNES) - 8 Million
13) Super Mario Kart (SNES) - 8 Million
14) Pokemon Red/Blue (Game Boy) - 8 Million
15) Half-Life (PC) - 8 Million
16) Tomb Raider II (PS1) - 8 Million
17) Final Fantasy VII (PS1) - 7.8 Million
18) Myst (PC) - 7 Million
19) Gran Turismo 3 (PS2) - 7 Million
20) Dragon Warrior VII (PS1) - 6 Million

I've seen these before, and don't usually give them much thought. Is this a North American or world wide chart?

I ask because I can't believe Dragon Warrior VII would be on the chart if it was US only, but I also can't believe that Super Mario Brothers 2 would be so high on the list if it was only the US version of the game.

And whoever it was that asked about Duck Hunt, that's a good question. My random guess is that Duck Hunt was included on 75% of the SMB / DH combos, and would therefore rank 5th.

And SoulBlazer, I agree that resale counts would be nearly impossible to follow. I agree that RPGs probably get bought used more often, but most RPG players sell their games when they are done with them. For the most part, the hardcore RPG fans that I know don't go back to many games... once they have completed one, they'll sell it to help pay for the next. Also, there isn't as much urgency to get the game at release like there is with games that are "seasonal" like Madden, or NBA Live, or MLB. If you don't buy the new RPG the day it is released because you're finishing another, it doesn't make the game not as fun if you get it a year or two later.

At that rate, I think that a selling point of 250,000 copies of an RPG could easily be played by well over 1 million gamers. It just occurs much slower -- and it doesn't benefit the creators of the game any more than a game that sells 250,000 copies and barely any go to resale. Popularity doesn't equal profits.


How can Nintendo reverse this trend with its next console?

Add:

Run Promotions that target an older audience. The Xbox Taco Bell / Mountain Dew coupling was a nice step for Microsoft because both of TB and MD brands are known for being "hip" and "trendy." Nintendo has run promotions for the Nintendo franchises like Mario, Yoshi and whatnot, but that doesn't make them look anything but kiddie.

Convince third parties not just to come in and work with them again, but also to make games that are exclusive to their console. Exclusive titles are what sell consoles, and Nintendo has done a poor job with that in the past few years. Their biggest agreement was with Capcom, but how many of those titles are ending up on other consoles now?

Get enough new games in the established franchises right off the bat. I agree that many of the franchises Nintendo have seem more kid-friendly, but I don't think you have to get rid of games like Animal Crossing and Pikmin. I do feel that Nintendo needs to release more of these popular titles during the first few months of any new console's release. A new console debuting with a new Mario, new Animal Crossing, new Pikmin, new Super Smash Brothers, new StarFox and new Zelda as well as new Metriod, new Resident Evil and so on would interest everyone. I would also argue that Zelda and Star Fox could be a cross over market like Metriod if they ditch the cartoon look.

I agree that they can't rely on these franchises, but the Nintendo brand is still around because of them. If Nintendo would trust enough people with these franchises to bring out a ton of them at once, the system would get a larger influx of people right off the bat.

And to help this argument a little more, where would Nintendo be with the GameCube right now if they hadn't released Luigi's Mansion, Mario Sunshine, Pikmin, Pikmin 2, Star Fox Adventures, Mario Kart: Double Dash, Animal Crossing, Super Smash Brothers Melee and Zelda? What else is there to buy for the system that is exclusive? I know that there are some majors (Resident Evil and Metriod) but there is something to be said for those games, as long as that is only one part of their strategy.

Sony has really proved that you don't need a mascot game to make a console popular any more, and it would be stupid for Nintendo to think that Mario would be able to pull them through. Then again, they seem to be doing that with the DS right now...

[zmweasel]

The point, really, is that your list of games is misleading if you're counting games that sold simply because they were included with a system. When I went to buy my SNES (when they were current), no local stores had a package that DIDN'T contain the Super Mario World cartridge. I suck at Super Mario games ... the last thing I need is another one. :).

Again, I can understand the argument against counting pack-ins as best-sellers, although the fact that every all-time list I've found includes Super Mario Bros. seems to indicate that more people are okay with it than not. It's definitely a topic for further debate.


Also, why include PC games at all in a list in an argument about the market for console games in North America? A "top 20 console games of all time" might make your point a little better.

I picked this list because, quite frankly, I couldn't find a list that was console-only. I agree that a console-exclusive list would be better suited to the topic, and if I find one, I'll certainly share it.


Er, they ARE games, and could be used to prove that 50% of people who play electronic games are female. But that's a different argument from 50% of "gamers" ... :)

Windows Solitaire is a computer game, yes, but anyone who would use it to claim that half of video gamers are female--including, sadly, the ISDA--is lying. That was my point, which you seem to have missed.

-- Z.

[zmweasel]

I ask because I can't believe Dragon Warrior VII would be on the chart if it was US only, but I also can't believe that Super Mario Brothers 2 would be so high on the list if it was only the US version of the game.

It's a worldwide chart. DW7 alone confirms that. As for the SMB2 listing, I assume the total includes both the U.S. version of SMB2 and the Japanese version of America's SMB2, called Super Mario Bros. USA over there, not the wholly different Japanese SMB2. Since the number almost certainly came from Nintendo itself, I doubt the two games were lumped together.


And whoever it was that asked about Duck Hunt, that's a good question. My random guess is that Duck Hunt was included on 75% of the SMB / DH combos, and would therefore rank 5th.

So you think that three out of every four Super Mario Bros. carts is actually a SMB/Duck Hunt combo? Was the combo cart released early enough in the NES's lifespan to make that feasible?

-- Z.

[zmweasel]

Grandia 2 has a PC version, and lots of others too. For the short story, WD wasn't able to release Lunar on the PC due to "not being able to get some program delivered". To appease people they released a fanart version of Lunar for PS1. I think ZM may be able to explain it better, I think he may have worked with Vic.

The (hideous) fan-art version of SSSC wasn't to make amends for the PC cock-up, but to cash in on Victor's best-selling game of all time without technically breaking his full-page-advertised promise that SSSC--the original deluxe-packaging version--would never be reprinted.

The PC version of SSSC never happened because 1) it was buggy as hell, 2) it was an embarrassingly primitive game that would have been critically lambasted, and 3) it wouldn't have sold enough copies to be worth Victor's time or money. At that point in Working Designs' existence, Victor had gotten accustomed to selling an average of 30-40K units per PS1 game. Lunar PC would have been lucky to crack 5K, given the sorry-ass state of the PC gaming market at the time.

-- Z.

[SoulBlazer]

I still would have bought a PC version. :)

Zach, you say the game was buggy -- that implies it was at LEAST playable. Did you ever play it? Remember anything about it? Who was actually responsible for working on it? Might there still be a early version floating around? I know you can't talk much in length about what happened during your time with WD, but I've never seen ANYTHING about this anywhere and I'm eager for some inside information, as much or as little as you can share. :)

And goatdan, thanks for agreeing with me. ;) I WANTED to say as high as a million people for a RPG that sells a quarter as many copies, but that seemed TOO high. I'm glad someone else said it. :D I really don't see what the companies that make RPG's can do to help with that, either....make the games longer, I guess, or add more stuff to encourge replay. That would encourge more copies to be bought because gamers would want to hold on to theirs.

I'd love to see some information on sales of used games. I'm sure EB and GameStop must keep some kind of records -- how else would they know how to price used games? -- but they would never release that info to the public.

[Promophile]

Grandia 2 has a PC version, and lots of others too. For the short story, WD wasn't able to release Lunar on the PC due to "not being able to get some program delivered". To appease people they released a fanart version of Lunar for PS1. I think ZM may be able to explain it better, I think he may have worked with Vic.

The (hideous) fan-art version of SSSC wasn't to make amends for the PC cock-up, but to cash in on Victor's best-selling game of all time without technically breaking his full-page-advertised promise that SSSC--the original deluxe-packaging version--would never be reprinted.

The PC version of SSSC never happened because 1) it was buggy as hell, 2) it was an embarrassingly primitive game that would have been critically lambasted, and 3) it wouldn't have sold enough copies to be worth Victor's time or money. At that point in Working Designs' existence, Victor had gotten accustomed to selling an average of 30-40K units per PS1 game. Lunar PC would have been lucky to crack 5K, given the sorry-ass state of the PC gaming market at the time.

-- Z.

Yea I didn't really think that the public statment about the reasons was true, but thats all I had to go on.

[goatdan]

I ask because I can't believe Dragon Warrior VII would be on the chart if it was US only, but I also can't believe that Super Mario Brothers 2 would be so high on the list if it was only the US version of the game.

It's a worldwide chart. DW7 alone confirms that. As for the SMB2 listing, I assume the total includes both the U.S. version of SMB2 and the Japanese version of America's SMB2, called Super Mario Bros. USA over there, not the wholly different Japanese SMB2. Since the number almost certainly came from Nintendo itself, I doubt the two games were lumped together.

Aha! That makes sense. I was trying to figure that out...



And whoever it was that asked about Duck Hunt, that's a good question. My random guess is that Duck Hunt was included on 75% of the SMB / DH combos, and would therefore rank 5th.

So you think that three out of every four Super Mario Bros. carts is actually a SMB/Duck Hunt combo? Was the combo cart released early enough in the NES's lifespan to make that feasible?

Honestly, from what I've seen as a dealer, I would wager that as a fair guess. The NES Action Set was released shortly after the ROB thing didn't work out and included the cart.

Currently in stock, I have 42 copies of Super Mario Brothers / Duck Hunt. I have five copies of Super Mario Brothers stand alone and two copies of Duck Hunt standalone. From checking our records, in the past year we've sold 10 copies of SMB / DH and 1 copy of SMB. So in my mini-snapshot, I have seen 52 copies of SMB / DH versus 6 copies of SMB.

On top of that, in my visits to various GameStops (well, Funcolands then) in the past five years for collection / GOAT Store purchases, I have definitely seen at least the same ratio. I definitely feel that a 75 / 25 split would be fair.

One last bit of evidence -- In the old Funco newspapers, SMB alone was always more expensive than SMB / DH. They got as close as .19 and .09, but they were never equal. I'd assume this was from a surplus of the combo, as they also have done this with the Xbox titles (JSRF / Sega GT costs 3.99 together or 5.99 apiece apart, I'd assume for the same reason).


And goatdan, thanks for agreeing with me. I WANTED to say as high as a million people for a RPG that sells a quarter as many copies, but that seemed TOO high. I'm glad someone else said it. I really don't see what the companies that make RPG's can do to help with that, either....make the games longer, I guess, or add more stuff to encourge replay. That would encourge more copies to be bought because gamers would want to hold on to theirs.

I look at it this way -- my copy of Earthbound has been loaned to four people this past year who all played through it. I bought my copy used, so it had to have gone through at least one other person than me. Just combining that, and you've got five people on one copy of a game.

And again, going off my mini-market with the GOAT Store, I can guarantee that RPGs that we get in sell quicker than non-RPG games. I've had copies of certain games sell within minutes of posting them. It is a little harder to get them because of cost, but it doesn't seem like people are unwilling to sell most of them.

To be honest, I don't think that many used gaming stores track how a game was selling, but instead how many copies they had. For instance, if Gamestop has 2 million copies of Madden 2002 in stock, it isn't going to be worth a lot of money and they will need to discount it to $3.00 to move it. If they only had 10,000 copies of a game in stock, they could leave it at a higher price if it is in more demand. Balancing those numbers is what makes you come up with a "general public" market value for games:

Quantity on hand + demand = approximate cost

It doesn't have much to do with the game itself. That's why Funco would sell games like Stadium Events for 0.29 cents and Contra for $19.99. Stadium Events didn't move in a non-collector world (although it would now) while Contra was an extremely popular game that many people with a NES bought and kept.

Just some general thoughts. I'm operating on a lot of stuff that I've learned over the past couple years that may or may not be right, based on the little world of the GOAT Store :)

[zmweasel]

Zach, you say the game was buggy -- that implies it was at LEAST playable. Did you ever play it? Remember anything about it? Who was actually responsible for working on it? Might there still be a early version floating around? I know you can't talk much in length about what happened during your time with WD, but I've never seen ANYTHING about this anywhere and I'm eager for some inside information, as much or as little as you can share. :)

Yep, I played the PC Lunar a bit. Its one redeeming quality was that its movie clips were in their original 640x480 rez, not 320x240 or whatever the PS1 clips were squashed to. I used the raw frames to illustrate the SSSC strategy guide, although I could've gotten away with screen grabs because the pics were so small. (I boosted the size of in-game screenshots in the EB guide, but left the movie-clip pictures the same.)

The PC version made me fantasize about a Lunar 1/2 remake for the PS2, with all the movie clips in their original gorgeousness (and subtitled Japanese or dubbed English as the player desired). DVD-Rs weren't cheap or easy enough to burn back then--and I wasn't capable enough with video-editng programs back then--for me to make a disc of the anime clips for personal consumption. While Victor is very kindly speaking to me these days (he'd be well within his rights to tell me to screw off forever), I doubt he'd let me pop into the office to fulfill my cheesy fantasy.

The entire PC version ran at 640x480, actually, but most of the graphics had been double-sized and retouched, not redrawn from scratch. Yuck. I don't recall any music, which makes me guess it hadn't yet been implemented. Maybe it was some awful Sound Blaster tunage that my mind has since blocked out.

I vaguely recall that the PC version had been worked on by some Korean company. Beyond that, I couldn't tell you who was responsible for it.

I'm sure Victor has at least one version of it. He has versions of everything. Probably the coolest Lunar thing he's got is a one-of-a-kind "Beanie Baby Ghaleon" produced by a clueless Asian company during the endless search for a Ghaleon-puppet manufacturer. He also has the Alex-puppet prototype seen on the back of the Ghaleon puppet's box...unless we destroyed that during the office "play-testing sessions." Good times!

The PC Lunar wasn't a big loss, honest. It wasn't different or improved enough from the PS1 version, and it would've been flame-broiled by critics. The only reason for anyone to get it would've been to obtain the Alex puppet. (The deal was gonna be that if you sent in the POPs from Lunar 2 on the PS1 and Lunar 1 on the PC, you got an Alex puppet.)

Have I mentioned how nostalgic I've become for the WD days? :)

-- Z.

[Nick Goracke]

The vast majority of Dragon Warrior VII's sales were in Japan; it tanked in North America. (The English localization was horrific, inexplicably farmed out to a fansite crew. Man, could I rant about that for years.)


Please do. I'd like to hear the story. ;)

[Nick Goracke]

I'd readily agree that American RPGs on the Xbox are a helluva lot closer to the mainstream than Japanese RPGs on the PS2.

-- Z.

How do you figure?

Fable has the first party push... (and as an aside, you said 1-million sold-IN?)

Star Wars wasn't marketed as an RPG...

Morrowing is a "best seller", but is it even in the X-Box top 10? 20? (I have no idea, but it never struck me as anywhere near mainstream)

I'm not sure any of these 3 make a compelling case.

At the very least, the PS2 has FFX.

[SoulBlazer]

Thanks for the information about the PC attempt on Lunar Silver Star.

And yeah, I'd like to hear that DW 7 story also. ;)

I used to be a big fan of the Dragon Warrior series, but when I played 7 I thought it was bad for several reasons -- mainly it did'nt feel like it had evolved since the days of 1 and 2, poor story, and borring gameplay. I never noticed the translation. :D

[SegaAges]

dude, the cube rocks.

i own more games for that than i do for xbox.

granted, i own more ps2 games than cube games, but ps2 came out 1st and has rugby games!!!!!!!!!!!

[zmweasel]

Fable has the first party push... (and as an aside, you said 1-million sold-IN?)

According to Microsoft, one million sold in.


Star Wars wasn't marketed as an RPG...

Much of the early excitement surrounding KotOR had to with the fact that it was the first Star Wars video game RPG, and from one of the best American RPG developers, Neverwinter Nights' BioWare. The game's own website calls it a "role-playing experience." Where did you see KotOR not acknowledged by LucasArts as an RPG?


Morrowing is a "best seller", but is it even in the X-Box top 10? 20? (I have no idea, but it never struck me as anywhere near mainstream)

I don't know that it's an Xbox all-time top ten. I do know that it was a rave-reviewed port of a very popular (by PC standards) RPG, and received two Xbox releases, the latter a "Game of the Year" edition with additional content from the PC version's two expansion packs. I doubt the latter would've happened had the former been a flop at retail.


At the very least, the PS2 has FFX.

We've already noted the FF series as the one JRPG franchise to make it big in America, thanks to Sony's enormous FF7 marketing push. I often wonder where Square Enix would be in America (and Japan) without that mighty assist.

-- Z.

[calthaer]

RPGs, like most games, aren't released on a timetable that is long enough to build interest and get people to buy games. The people who like RPGs are most likely playing RPGs. These games take a long time to finish. If I hear about an RPG that has been released, I will most likely not pick it up until I've finished the one I'm on. If they kept those things on shelves longer than 3-6 months, they might see greater sales over time. Unfortunately, the relatively quick turnover in hardware and whatnot means that good games - especially RPGs - never get the release window necessary to build up steam.

[Promophile]

Zach, you say the game was buggy -- that implies it was at LEAST playable. Did you ever play it? Remember anything about it? Who was actually responsible for working on it? Might there still be a early version floating around? I know you can't talk much in length about what happened during your time with WD, but I've never seen ANYTHING about this anywhere and I'm eager for some inside information, as much or as little as you can share. :)

Yep, I played the PC Lunar a bit. Its one redeeming quality was that its movie clips were in their original 640x480 rez, not 320x240 or whatever the PS1 clips were squashed to. I used the raw frames to illustrate the SSSC strategy guide, although I could've gotten away with screen grabs because the pics were so small. (I boosted the size of in-game screenshots in the EB guide, but left the movie-clip pictures the same.)

The PC version made me fantasize about a Lunar 1/2 remake for the PS2, with all the movie clips in their original gorgeousness (and subtitled Japanese or dubbed English as the player desired). DVD-Rs weren't cheap or easy enough to burn back then--and I wasn't capable enough with video-editng programs back then--for me to make a disc of the anime clips for personal consumption. While Victor is very kindly speaking to me these days (he'd be well within his rights to tell me to screw off forever), I doubt he'd let me pop into the office to fulfill my cheesy fantasy.

The entire PC version ran at 640x480, actually, but most of the graphics had been double-sized and retouched, not redrawn from scratch. Yuck. I don't recall any music, which makes me guess it hadn't yet been implemented. Maybe it was some awful Sound Blaster tunage that my mind has since blocked out.

I vaguely recall that the PC version had been worked on by some Korean company. Beyond that, I couldn't tell you who was responsible for it.

I'm sure Victor has at least one version of it. He has versions of everything. Probably the coolest Lunar thing he's got is a one-of-a-kind "Beanie Baby Ghaleon" produced by a clueless Asian company during the endless search for a Ghaleon-puppet manufacturer. He also has the Alex-puppet prototype seen on the back of the Ghaleon puppet's box...unless we destroyed that during the office "play-testing sessions." Good times!

The PC Lunar wasn't a big loss, honest. It wasn't different or improved enough from the PS1 version, and it would've been flame-broiled by critics. The only reason for anyone to get it would've been to obtain the Alex puppet. (The deal was gonna be that if you sent in the POPs from Lunar 2 on the PS1 and Lunar 1 on the PC, you got an Alex puppet.)

Have I mentioned how nostalgic I've become for the WD days? :)

-- Z.

Interesting read. I always did wonder whatever happened to the alex puppets. Personally I woulda much rather prefered having the alex one over the ghaleon one :) .

[Nick Goracke]

According to Microsoft, one million sold in.


Curious how many have sold through...

In any case, I'm guessing that FFX leads by a pretty fair margin?



Much of the early excitement surrounding KotOR had to with the fact that it was the first Star Wars video game RPG, and from one of the best American RPG developers, Neverwinter Nights' BioWare. The game's own website calls it a "role-playing experience." Where did you see KotOR not acknowledged by LucasArts as an RPG?


Simply going by the guidlines you used to describe FFVII's marketing. Not sure I agree with it, but lets just draw a parallel...

FFVII's TV commercials didn't focus on the RPG gameplay. The draw was the cinematics.

SWKotR commercials didn't focus on the RPG gameplay. The draw was the ability to "choose the light or dark side", and I'll be perfectly honest - it looked like an action game to me (didn't find out otherwise until months later).

Point being (I have one!) that both enjoyed mainstream success because they were cleverly marketed. Just so happened their "action" was menu-based...



We've already noted the FF series as the one JRPG franchise to make it big in America, thanks to Sony's enormous FF7 marketing push. I often wonder where Square Enix would be in America (and Japan) without that mighty assist.


They would've been better off. Probably wouldn't have spent billions making a movie aimed for a US audience if it weren't for that extra boost. ;)

[goatdan]

Fable has the first party push... (and as an aside, you said 1-million sold-IN?)

Fable had a first party push... but that doesn't guarantee that the game will be well received, just that it will probably sell well. Fable sold well and was crictically acclaimed. I haven't played it, but it sounds like a winner to me.


Star Wars wasn't marketed as an RPG...

Have you played Star Wars? The game is marketed as more of an RPG that American audiences can relate with than most of the Japanese releases -- the game specifically explains that it is rolling dice to make things happen. Just like Dungeons and Dragons. In fact, on the back of the KOTOR Xbox case:


A brand new Star Wars role-playing experience with unique characters, creatures, vehicles and planets


Morrowing is a "best seller", but is it even in the X-Box top 10? 20? (I have no idea, but it never struck me as anywhere near mainstream)

Considering that a sequel was made to the game, even though it was also a PC game, I think that pretty much speaks for itself. Top ten best sellers? I don't know about that... but I wouldn't doubt that the other two on this list are knocking on that door if they aren't already there.


I'm not sure any of these 3 make a compelling case.

At the very least, the PS2 has FFX.

Which proved so popular that the new PStwo doesn't even support the hard drive? Other than the Final Fantasy series, which PS2 RPG game or series is notable? I know of Grandia II because I loved the Dreamcast game, but beyond that... Final Fantasy is all that I can come up with.

For once, I actually agree completely with Zach. The Xbox RPGs have been a lot more mainstream than RPGs on other consoles. Of the above, two are already Platinum Hits games that can be purchased for $20.00 or less. RPGs that aren't mainstream usually don't become part of the greatest hit series... are there any for the Playstation 2 or GameCube that are? I really don't know, but I wouldn't think so.

[mhsy2a]

I'm not sure any of these 3 make a compelling case.

At the very least, the PS2 has FFX.


Which proved so popular that the new PStwo doesn't even support the hard drive? Other than the Final Fantasy series, which PS2 RPG game or series is notable? I know of Grandia II because I loved the Dreamcast game, but beyond that... Final Fantasy is all that I can come up with.

For once, I actually agree completely with Zach. The Xbox RPGs have been a lot more mainstream than RPGs on other consoles. Of the above, two are already Platinum Hits games that can be purchased for $20.00 or less. RPGs that aren't mainstream usually don't become part of the greatest hit series... are there any for the Playstation 2 or GameCube that are? I really don't know, but I wouldn't think so.

Final Fantasy XI was the online version, not Final Fantasy X.

As far as Greatest Hits RPGs on PS2, I can think of Final Fantasy X, Kingdom Hearts, and Dark Cloud off the top of my head. There are probably a couple other RPGs that are capable of becoming Greatest Hits as well: Suidoken 3, the dot Hack series, Final Fantasy X-2.

Personally, I believe that the PS2 is a little more "mainstream" then Xbox when it comes to RPGs.

[dracula]

http://www.gamestop.com/product.asp?product%5Fid=020246

use the coupon code "holidaygc" to get a free game under $30.

(pulled from cheapassgamer.com)

Today i can buy a gamecube + one controller + mario kart DD(a $50 game) plus a $30 game of my choice($30), plus get a $15 gift card, all of this is for $99:
this puts the value of a new cube with new controller and all hookups at $5...

I still refuse to get this cube bundle, i already own one cube and never play it... I cant wait to see what sort of cube deals come out next christmas, i bet some stores will clearance these bundles out at $10 to $20 next christmas bc even now no one is buying this bundle for $99.

[dethink]

i need mario kart and two more controllers... :D :D

a spare GC thrown in sweetens the deal. LOL

[Nick Goracke]

At the very least, the PS2 has FFX.

Which proved so popular that the new PStwo doesn't even support the hard drive?

...

RPGs that aren't mainstream usually don't become part of the greatest hit series... are there any for the Playstation 2 or GameCube that are? I really don't know, but I wouldn't think so.

First of all, I assume you're talking about FFXI, not X. FFXI is certainly not mainstream (it's an online RPG. I mean, come on!), but for this type of game, the userbase is quite large.

Yes, there are PS2 RPGs in the Greatest Hits line (if that's supposed to be a measurement of "mainstream"). FFX, Xenosaga and Dark Cloud come immediately to mind.

For the record...

I don't think J-RPGs are mainstream. Neither are A-RPGs (which is the only reason I jumped on this post). There's a few on each side that have sold well because of licenses and huge marketing pushes.

And I think the wrong angle is being taken in trying to prove it. You can tell if a genre is "mainstream" or not by how many garbage releases are put into it every year.

Take it a step further (how this thread got derailed so much, I'll never know ;) ). You can tell how healthy a system is by the number of garbage releases put onti it every year. Where does this put the GC?

[goatdan]

First of all, I assume you're talking about FFXI, not X. FFXI is certainly not mainstream (it's an online RPG. I mean, come on!), but for this type of game, the userbase is quite large.

Yes, I was... but seriously, if the series is as big as people claim it is, I don't think that Sony would've redesigned the case so that it can't play the game -- Regardless of if it is online or not. To me, it sounds like something SquarEnix might not like, considering that Sony is basically denying users from the ability to purchase their game. But I digress...


Yes, there are PS2 RPGs in the Greatest Hits line (if that's supposed to be a measurement of "mainstream"). FFX, Xenosaga and Dark Cloud come immediately to mind.

Okay, I looked them up just now. Officially, you have:

Baldur's Gate
Dark Cloud
Final Fantasy X
Kingdom Hearts
Xenosaga

For the Xbox, you have:

Baldur's Gate
Star Wars: KOTOR
Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind
Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind Game of the Year Edition

All of the Xbox games are American releases.

On top of that, for the Xbox you have two biggies that are out now, Star Wars: KOTOR2 and Fable.

I think that by looking at the games that have made it to greatest hits status, we can see that the consoles are similar in numbers. I'll let you decide what you think has more strength of titles for the US market, but based on licensing alone, I think that is pretty obvious.


For the record...

I don't think J-RPGs are mainstream. Neither are A-RPGs (which is the only reason I jumped on this post). There's a few on each side that have sold well because of licenses and huge marketing pushes.

I'd argue that they sold well because they were good games. Let's see here:

Star Wars: Obi Wan - Not really known for selling good like KOTOR
Final Fantasy XI - Sold so strongly that Sony removed hard drive compatibility with their newest hardware revision

There are other examples, but at the core of all of the above games is pretty solid in my opinion.


And I think the wrong angle is being taken in trying to prove it. You can tell if a genre is "mainstream" or not by how many garbage releases are put into it every year.

What RPGs that you were talked about are considered "garbage releases"? KOTOR that "Won over 40 Game of the Year Awards" (as declared on the box)? Morrowind that sold well and had a sequel released shortly thereafter that also sold well?

And the only reason I'm not defending the PS2 titles here is that we didn't talk about them... but I would defend them in the same way.

For the most part, if a game sucks, people don't buy it regardless of the license. There is another thread talking about Turk Evolution -- the Turok name was still solid when it was released, but now they can barely give the game away. People didn't like it, so it didn't sell well.


Take it a step further (how this thread got derailed so much, I'll never know ;) ). You can tell how healthy a system is by the number of garbage releases put onti it every year. Where does this put the GC?

I don't know... I'd say you can tell how healthy a system is by how many quality releases happen each year. Any company can get garbage out, but that doesn't mean the system is doing well or will do well. It's the games like Fable, Star Wars: KOTOR 2, Halo 2, GTA: SA, MGS3, Metriod Prime 2, etc. that allow you to see just how healthy a system is.

[lendelin]

Good discussion, good arguments, good data.

I wouldn't call RPGs in America a niche. If the Japanese Star Ocean according to recent NPD sales figures (source: GamePro) was number 5, and Fable was number 1, it is beyond a niche market although they won't stay there for long. They are certainly not mainstream either, FPS and traditional sports will beat them in sheer sales figures for sure. They were and will be in the near future much more attarctive for casual gamers.

Even considering the relatively modest percentages of RPGs of all the games released (which genre besides FPSs can compete with sports titles anyway?)they are something in between a niche genre and the hot seeling genres of sports, extreme sports, racers, and FPSs. RPGs became established in the US to such an extent that we get a good number of RPGs from great titles to second and third rate games. They are profitable, and go beyond appeal of a market niche; otherwise we wouldnt have the overcrowded RPG offering for the PS2.

There is one interesting development in the last two-three years: American RPG- developers are much closer to market tastes than Japanese developers. Japnese developers (this goes not only for RPGs) got stuck too much in tarditional genres, in their own successful past, while American developers looked for new directions in all sorts of games to deliver movie-like experiences; additionally, they broke more and more traditional strict separation lines of genres, therefore appealing to more gamers, casual and hardcore and everything in between alike. The American RPG has much more potential to berak into the "mainstream" than the Japanese RPG.

If all the smokescreens settle, there will be one big meaning of the Xbox for game development; MS managed to bridge two horses of a different color: the Japanese dominated console RPG, and the American dominated PC-RPG. With the big commercial success of KOTOR, Fable, and probably the upcoming Jade Empire, they slowly bring these two different genres together....and then there is a potential to gain more ground for RPGs.