The PS3 is not a console

[Jasoco]

http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000673044762/
http://channels.lockergnome.com/game/archives/20050525_the_playstation_3_is_not_a_console.phtml

Of course it's not, it's a refrigerator. People already know that!

[FurinkanianFrood]

Of course it isn't. Like I said before, it's Sony's attempt to polish a turd.

Hopefully this one won't sell. It is a bit frightening when you consider that Sony is the world's foremost polished turd vendor.

All other arguments aside, this thing has got to have a nasty price point.

And considering the lack of actual game footage so far, I wonder how many games can actually make the launch in reasonable form.

People keep saying "look how excited the developers are!"

Well, that is a result of business decisions made by business people at those companies, management that hasn't the foggiest understanding of the technology.

Suits buy hype *very* easily.

The PS3's power is even more theoretical (i.e. non tappable in real games) than the PS2's.

Let's see how many folks buy a $450 or so (it has to be expensive) console that has launch titles that look like so-so PS2 games and plays movies that aren't actually in the stores yet (a few token POS movies from Sony maybe, but eh).

They actually got me with the PS2 (I was in "buying every console that comes out" mode then.....). This time I don't see myself buying anything but a Revolution.

Don't be the first ones with your backs to the wall when the Revolution comes folks.

[classicb]

the president of Tecmo Games has already voiced is dislike for the PS3. I wish I could find the link again it was quite funny. I guess the game developers don't think its a game machine either. I forget everything he said but he talked about the applience devision designing the PS3 and that it wasn't designed very well to make game for. Well Sony mission accomplished its not a game machine.

edit:
found the Tecmo link
http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=57248

[DeputyMoniker]

<CD-i>fail</CD-i>
<NUON>fail</NUON>
<PS3>fail?</PS3>
I hope not.
I'm excited for me but worried about Sony..."not a game machine" is a real risky thing for them to say! It also sounds like a fancied up way of saying "you're gonna have to pay out the arse for one of these!"

[evildead2099]

I bought a PS2 because I bought into the hype $ony generated about how its system would revolutionize entertainment (as opposed to being a flashier upgrade to the PS1). Boy oh boy did I feel lied to. I have grown cynical of $ony over the years - not merely in terms of the videogame hardware & software it produces, but in terms of all its products. The PS3 may turn out to be the greatest system ever produced, but at this point in time, I've lost nearly all my confidence in the company.

[FurinkanianFrood]

I'm excited for me but worried about Sony..."not a console" is a real risky thing to say...it also sounds like a fancy way of saying "you're gonna have to pay out the ass for one of these!"


I'm excited for me because Sony finally looks to be shooting itself in the foot. Hopefully they miss and hit themselves between the eyes.

After all the garbage they sell to poor ignorant consumers it would be nice to see a bit 'o justice.

We already can be sure about the pay out the ass bit. If you look at what's in the thing it's unavoidable.

Personally, I'm worried that Sony's game console division will survive the next generation and continue to damage gaming.

That's how "I" am worried about Sony.

Like I said though, they have sold crap in the past. Theres a limit to that though. You can only take the BS so far.

Mebbe time for Sony's (hopefully as disastrous for them as possible) lesson methinks.



Boy oh boy did I feel lied to. I have grown cynical of $ony over the years - not merely in terms of the videogame hardware & software it produces, but in terms of all its products.


You aren't alone man..... Same thing that happened to me.
For all my hate I spew at Sony, I used actually bought a PS2 at launch and held on to it for a few years.



<NUON>fail</NUON>


I still like the NUON myself, but there sadly wasn't much hope for it. Don't have one, but my friend's sister does, along with most of the games that actually got released.

[evildead2099]

You aren't alone man..... Same thing that happened to me.
For all my hate I spew at Sony, I used actually bought a PS2 at launch and held on to it for a few years.

I tried giving the company the benefit of the doubt, letting my PS2 collect dust for three years so that $ony could get its act together with respect to that 'revolutionary' online experience it had been promising gamers for quite some time. From now on, I will not invest in a system unless the company in charge of that system has effectively "SHOW[N] ME THE MONEY!"

[classicb]

Sony's products have never impressed me. The PS and the PS2 had great games because they were the popular systems and developers had to make games for them if they wanted to make some money. Tecmo is one of my favorite companies and if their jumping ship so am I. The next wave of consoles looks to be expensive so my plans are to get a 360 then save save save to get a Revolution. I mean what's the point in getting a PS3 for me if my favorite company is probably going to stop making games for them.

[evildead2099]

Sony's products have never impressed me.

At least when it came to products unrelated to videogames, $ony was reliable in terms quality engineering (durability, meeting or exceeding stadard application performance, etc). That is no longer the case. It used to be that when you bought a Sony device, that "made in Japan" sticker was an assurance of quality. $ony has reduced its standards - now it's joined the ranks of numerous manufacturers of mediocre products whose assembly is contracted out where labour is cheap ('It's about quantity, not quality.'). Check the back of your PS2, and you'll see "made in China" rather than "made in Japan."

[Bluteg]

Man, Sony keeps getting more and more arrogant all the time, they kind of remind of Nitendo right before the N64 launch, convinced their name is worth more than a good product.


“The PlayStation is not a game machine,” Kutaragi states, “We’ve never once called it a game machine.”

The PS3 isn’t designed to lean towards games. It’s not a computer for children.

What the hell is it then a $300 CD/DVD/Blu-Ray player?


With the PS3, our intentions have been to create a machine with supercomputer calculation capabilities for home entertainment.

Supercomputer calculation capabilties for home entertainment (AKA GAMES) Seriously what else could fit in this description beside games... maybe its some kind of advanced porn? LOL

[FurinkanianFrood]

three years


Interesting, that's how long I tried to give them the benefit of the doubt with the PS2 also.

Maybe there's a pattern.

Anyone else hold on to a PS2 (actually more than one in my case) for approx. 3 years?

Actually, it's kind of a blessing in disguise in my case. When I realized how crappy the PS2 was relative to DC I looked at the PS and decided that Sony was always making inferior junk and so I went on a Saturn import binge that got me some of the best games ever made IMO.

The "underpowered Saturn" myth was a heck of a lie.

I once was lost. Sega gave it's life so that I might be saved.

[Kilik Kurosawa]

http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000673044762/
http://channels.lockergnome.com/game/archives/20050525_the_playstation_3_is_not_a_console.phtml


so...many.....buzz.......words!!

[lendelin]

Furinkanionfrood and evildead, I think you took marketing babble of the past at face value, were disappointed, and now you go into the extreme opposite direction and on the way fall for marketing babble again.

Sonys statements have to be put into the context of a marketing strategy war; that's what it is, nothing else. MS will respond, and this little war will increase until the PS3 will be released. To make statements about the success or failure of both systems is premature and simplistic.

Sony will stress the entertainment center aspect from an electronics angle, MS stresses it from a PC angle, and both do it because the can link it to more sales of their respective products; and both will pick up the marketing arguments of the other side and throw it in the competitors face hoping that unritical gamers will pick up the euphemisms.

In reality both systems will be very similar, and none of them (including the Revolution) will be a revolution.

Surprising is only the statement by Tecmo. Usually developers/publishers are more prudent and not so outspoken. Obviously Tecmo puts a lot of it bets on the 360, probably with the prospect of nice deals with MS -- for NOW; they will turn around very quickly and follow a dual route in case Sony will be a dominant marketleader; in case the gap of marketshares isn't as big as it is now, and especially if the 360 will be more successful in Japan, they might opt for the MS camp as long as they profit.

Like politicians, businessmen are very flexible; more flexible and realistic than a lot of gamers.

[PrototypeFC3S]

Looks like my DC is going to be getting a hell of a lot more love in the near future. 8-)

If anyone has my vote for the next consoles, its going to be Nintendo. 8-)

[thegreatescape]

Sony is trying to position the ps3 to compete with Media PCs as well as xbox360. "Not a games console" is their way of saying it.

The super-computer marketing jargon is probably an attempt to get a little more of that supercomputer publicity that the PS2 got at launch..... some of the best publicity the PS2 got and it was pretty much free. I wonder if Saddam still has his PS2..


http://ps3.ign.com/articles/614/614938p1.html Gameplay footage of a ps3 game.

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4922 PS2 favourites because of all the PS2 related whining.

[evildead2099]

I wonder if Saddam still has his PS2..

LOL


http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4922 PS2 favourites because of all the PS2 related whining.

Do you believe that is is possible for one to express one's disappointment without "whining," or am I reading into your message too carefully? :hmm:

[FurinkanianFrood]

Furinkanionfrood and evildead, I think you took marketing babble of the past at face value, were disappointed, and now you go into the extreme opposite direction and on the way fall for marketing babble again.


I didn't mean the exact same thing happened to me as EvilDead. I should have been more clear. I didn't buy the hype, just the console. I already loved my DC at that time, and didn't expect the PS2 to surpass it.

I merely thought it was an OK product that would have some nice software.

I was saying that I bought a PS2 and gave Sony the benefit of the doubt for 3 years like Evil Dead. He and all others burned by Sony have my empathy nonetheless.

I bought all consoles at that time.

I wasn't extreme either way until recently.

I knew Sony was full of crap. I just didn't think they were as full of it as they are.



Sony will stress the entertainment center aspect from an electronics angle, MS stresses it from a PC angle, and both do it because the can link it to more sales of their respective products; and both will pick up the marketing arguments of the other side and throw it in the competitors face hoping that unritical gamers will pick up the euphemisms.

In reality both systems will be very similar, and none of them (including the Revolution) will be a revolution.


And you think that is a viable strategy? I think not.

How can Sony sell the PS3 for less than $400? You just put me down with out even countering my main argument.

I am saying that their strategy looks like a mistake. Not that they don't have one, which appears to be what you are trying to say is my argument, as you are just mindlessly parroting their obvious marketing strategies.

"Gamers" have picked up on reality and have already written off PS3 as trash. You are thinking of consumers. Consumers who don't have that much to spend on a console and so likely won't buy it anyway.

"Revolution" could be one in the figurative sense.

Come back when you actually have counter arguments.



ike politicians, businessmen are very flexible; more flexible and realistic than a lot of gamers.


Realistic my ass. Businessmen can easily make fatal mistakes based on hype.

Politicians are flexible in that they are largely unethical, amoral SOBs who would sell their own mothers if that's what you mean.

From what I have seen in the tech industry businessmen are not necessarily flexible. They often are stubborn as hell.

And they usually do not really understand the technology. They are businessmen, not technical folks. It may not be their fault but it is true nonetheless.



At least when it came to products unrelated to videogames, $ony was reliable in terms quality engineering


Actually, not since the 80's or so IMO.



whining


Whining is one thing. Saying that one was ripped off is an extreme opinion, but is it whining? No.



Gameplay footage of a ps3 game.


I meant a significant amount of footage that is actually good looking, not proving the games + hardware exist footage. There should be more footage if there is really going to be a spring release.

If the thing is so great, they should be able to somehow demonstrate that it is significantly better than the current gen a year before launch.



Tecmo is one of my favorite companies and if their jumping ship so am I.


Amen to that. I will probably end up buying a 360 because of them myself.

Just not at launch I think.

The Rev is the only console I am certain I will buy at this point, but the 360 will end up in my collection unless Tecmo jumps ship, which is rather unlikely (unless the 360 launch is horribly bodged in which case Tecmo would default to the Rev I think).

Itagaki-san is a great guy. A Sony bashers Sony basher.
Likewise with Tekken.

[zmweasel]

At least when it came to products unrelated to videogames, $ony was reliable in terms quality engineering (durability, meeting or exceeding stadard application performance, etc). That is no longer the case. It used to be that when you bought a Sony device, that "made in Japan" sticker was an assurance of quality. $ony has reduced its standards - now it's joined the ranks of numerous manufacturers of mediocre products whose assembly is contracted out where labour is cheap ('It's about quantity, not quality.'). Check the back of your PS2, and you'll see "made in China" rather than "made in Japan."

Hey, that reminds me how Nintendo has lowered its standards by manufacturing the DS in China. Bet they'll do the same with the Revolution.

Interestingly, the PSP is currently manufactured in Japan.

-- Z.

[zmweasel]

How can Sony sell the PS3 for less than $400? You just put me down with out even countering my main argument.

Sony probably can't sell the PS3 for less than $400 at launch, especially not in spring '06 instead of fall '07--thanks, Microsoft--but I'm sure it expects the PS2 and PSP to continue selling to the masses while early adopters pick up the PS3.


"Gamers" have picked up on reality and have already written off PS3 as trash. You are thinking of consumers. Consumers who don't have that much to spend on a console and so likely won't buy it anyway.

I'm a gamer, and I haven't written off the PS3 at all. Hardcore gamers will be the ones picking up the PS3 at launch.


There should be more footage if there is really going to be a spring release.

Do you feel the same way about the Revolution, seeing as Nintendo didn't show *any* game footage from a system due to ship next year?


If the thing is so great, they should be able to somehow demonstrate that it is significantly better than the current gen a year before launch.

This argument equally applies to the 360 and Revolution.

-- Z.

[FurinkanianFrood]

Hey, that reminds me how Nintendo has lowered its standards by manufacturing the DS in China. Bet they'll do the same with the Revolution.


That was a bit disturbing I must admit.
And they probably will.

Everone is doing the sell out the free world for cheap manufacturing thing now though, so the field is at least even in that respect is it not?

And Nintendo's evil factories in China might be more on the ball than Sony's. Not to mention that if multiple consoles are made in the Party-members-aren't-people NonRepublic of Hell, I wouldn't be buying the more expensive ones, that's for sure.

I feel enough guilt buying things made in evil former Commie now fascist places when they are cheap.

[Nz17]

Supercomputer calculation capabilties for home entertainment (AKA GAMES) Seriously what else could fit in this description beside games... maybe its some kind of advanced porn? LOL

Woah woah woah, hold on a minute here: so what we would get with this is some sort of porn so advanced it couldn't be done before with inferior equipment? What I'm reading into this is:


Nipples with freaking LASERS on them!

The future of pasties.

[FurinkanianFrood]

Hey, that reminds me how Nintendo has lowered its standards by manufacturing the DS in China. Bet they'll do the same with the Revolution.


That was a bit disturbing I must admit.
And they probably will.

Everone is doing the sell out the free world for cheap manufacturing thing now though, so the field is at least even in that respect is it not?

And Nintendo's evil factories in China might be more on the ball than Sony's. Not to mention that if multiple consoles are made in the Party-members-aren't-people NonRepublic of Hell, I wouldn't be buying the more expensive ones, that's for sure.

I feel enough guilt buying things made in evil former Commie now fascist places when they are cheap.


I'm a gamer, and I haven't written off the PS3 at all. Hardcore gamers will be the ones picking up the PS3 at launch.


1. You can say that.....
2. Hardcore suckers you mean.....

[Nz17]

I once was lost. Sega gave it's life so that I might be saved.

That's a great line. DP should really make a series of bumper stickers for sale using some quotes from this forum.

[FurinkanianFrood]

Woah woah woah, hold on a minute here: so what we would get with this is some sort of porn so advanced it couldn't be done before with inferior equipment?


Yep, full VR. Question is, do you really want a console with more cleanup than gameplay time?

[zmweasel]

I feel enough guilt buying things made in evil former Commie now fascist places when they are cheap.

Please explain why your conscience would be less troubled if you purchased a $300 Chinese-manufactured Revolution instead of a $400 Chinese-manufactured PS3 (although the PS3 will almost certainly come out of Japan at first).


1. You can say that.....
2. Hardcore suckers you mean.....

I say it because I've been playing video games recreationally for more than 25 years, and playing them professionally for more than 15 years. If I'm not a "hardcore" gamer, please introduce me to someone who is.

And would you consider all early adopters to be "suckers"? How 'bout the folks who bought the SEGA Saturn at launch for $399?

-- Z.

[classicb]

Z

please tell me how the PS3 appeals to hardcore gamers (such as yourself) what about the PS3 make you want to go out and buy it over the other two.

[GarrettCRW]

Please explain why your conscience would be less troubled if you purchased a $300 Chinese-manufactured Revolution instead of a $400 Chinese-manufactured PS3 (although the PS3 will almost certainly come out of Japan at first).

Perhaps because the $300 console won't break down because of some design/manufacturing flaw within 2-3 years, which will happen with the $400 console (and if you believe that the PS3 won't have a flaw along these lines, you are incredibly naive, to say the least).

[zmweasel]

Please explain why your conscience would be less troubled if you purchased a $300 Chinese-manufactured Revolution instead of a $400 Chinese-manufactured PS3 (although the PS3 will almost certainly come out of Japan at first).

Perhaps because the $300 console won't break down because of some design/manufacturing flaw within 2-3 years, which will happen with the $400 console (and if you believe that the PS3 won't have a flaw along these lines, you are incredibly naive, to say the least).

So your conscience isn't troubled by purchasing a product created by cheap-ass Chinese child labor--which is an outdated stereotype; by most accounts, China is poised to be a major economic force in the 21st century--only by purchasing a Sony product instead of a Nintendo product, under the assumption that the Sony product won't be as reliable. Good to know.

-- Z.

[zmweasel]

Z

please tell me how the PS3 appeals to hardcore gamers (such as yourself) what about the PS3 make you want to go out and buy it over the other two.

What about the PS3 will appeal to hardcore gamers? It'll have the most third-party software support, and certainly the most Japanese third-party support. It'll be the most powerful console in the world at the time of its launch. It'll have robust PSP connectivity. It'll have robust HDTV support. It'll have PS1/PS2 backwards compatibility (and hopefully with PS2-esque visual-tweak options).

I'll also purchase the Xbox 360 and Revolution at launch, of course, just as I've purchased almost every system of the past 15 years at launch. I'm a fanboy of games and their designers, not of consoles and their manufacturers.

-- Z.

[Nz17]

Hey, that reminds me how Nintendo has lowered its standards by manufacturing the DS in China. Bet they'll do the same with the Revolution.


That was a bit disturbing I must admit.
And they probably will.

Everone is doing the sell out the free world for cheap manufacturing thing now though, so the field is at least even in that respect is it not?

And Nintendo's evil factories in China might be more on the ball than Sony's. Not to mention that if multiple consoles are made in the Party-members-aren't-people NonRepublic of Hell, I wouldn't be buying the more expensive ones, that's for sure.

I feel enough guilt buying things made in evil former Commie now fascist places when they are cheap.

Hang on now. China is almost the same size as the U.S. but has 1.3 billion people. The U.S. has 0.3 billion people. And within all that is a HUGE difference in working conditions and cost of living. While I may not agree with China's government, I do condone exporting work to there. Not so much because I like it that way, but because the main jobs being exported are non-skilled or manufacturing jobs. These jobs would go largely unfilled in America not because of people's inability but because of their unwillingness to work them for comparable wages. Why hire North American union workers for $15-plus per hour when Chinese workers are glad to do it for less than a third of that cost? Though I don't like to admit it, I'd rather they manufacture game consoles in China so I can buy one new for $299 instead of $599.

On the other hand, I knew a Romanian immigrant who I lived with in a shared house who worked for Nintendo. His job was assembling GameCubes from the parts that were manufactured in China. I believe he made $8-10/hour when averaged out doing that (I think they were paid by the number of systems assembled and had a maximum limit per week of so many systems.), but unfortunately it was not enough for him to be able to afford to bring his family over, so after Christmas of that year he returned to Romania. I always thought it funny when he would tell me how his unit, which was comprised mainly of immigrants, would finish their quota for the week before any of the other teams. This would result in them getting the same pay as everyone else, but they would get to take the rest of the week off from work.

[GarrettCRW]

So your conscience isn't troubled by purchasing a product created by cheap-ass Chinese child labor--which is an outdated stereotype; by most accounts, China is poised to be a major economic force in the 21st century--only by purchasing a Sony product instead of a Nintendo product, under the assumption that the Sony product won't be as reliable. Good to know.

-- Z.

I didn't say I wouldn't be troubled at all (it's too late too bitch about Chinese products, as the corporations have annointed the country as their de facto manufacturing center pretty much until wages go up there as well), I said it would be less troubled, which is precisely what you asked to be explained, as quoted by me.

[FurinkanianFrood]

Woah woah woah, hold on a minute here: so what we would get with this is some sort of porn so advanced it couldn't be done before with inferior equipment?


Yep, full VR. Question is, do you really want a console with more cleanup than gameplay time?


Do you feel the same way about the Revolution, seeing as Nintendo didn't show *any* game footage from a system due to ship next year?


No. As much as much as I would like to see footage, I believe Nintendo is waiting for people to be underwhelmed by the PS3's capabilities.

They don't have nearly as much hype and BS to back up as Sony. All I'm saying is if Sony can talk so much about the tech, why can't they demonstrate that it is a fraction of what they say it is.

If Nintendo showed footage now it would just give Sony ammo.

Because no one has seen finalized game footage from PS3, Sony could pretend that the PS3 is really as powerful as they say it is, and compare the hyped PS3 capabilities to actual Rev capabilities.

As far as the Rev develo kits, I think that they will be almost the same as GC. The Rev, I'm guessing, is pretty much just a step or two up from the same arch as GC, which should be be very similar graphics-wise to the competition.

It will give quite a cost advantage, and make up for lost time IMO.

Sony will have destroyed most of their ammo against Nintendo at their own launch before the next E3 when the Rev is fully revealed.

The Rev ain't gonna launch in the spring IMO.

If the BS is deflated by the time the Rev launches at half the PS3 price point, things should be interesting.

Also consider that if the 360 comes out at $100 less than PS3, the PS3 sales may take quite a hit in the US.



Quote:
If the thing is so great, they should be able to somehow demonstrate that it is significantly better than the current gen a year before launch.


This argument equally applies to the 360 and Revolution.


360, yes. Rev, no. None of the systems are a big step up. It's a foregone conclusion IMO. That's what Nintendo is betting on.

In that situation, it pays to be last. That way the others can't say the hardware isn't a big step up without being seen as hypocrites.

And if they are about even power-wise and N's console is cheaper........

N is using the weight of their own hype against them IMO.

In terms of being a small step in power with funny hardware and a high price, the PS3 looks almost Jaguarish.

Only the Sony name will prevent it from being DOA.

The phonier the BS, the bigger the fall.

Unlike last time, where the competition to the PS2 showed up late, the PS3 price point will negate the time advantage.

There should be some beforehand burn from 360 in the US, and the Rev's affordability we be key here as well. And a convenient (money hemorraghing, but a pain for Sony) price drop for the 360 possibly coupled with increasing software support in the second half of the year wouldn't help Sony either.

The PS3 will almost certainly sell well initially in Japan, but I think it will degenerate not as soon a the N64 did there, but with an extremely steep drop nonetheless. An unsustainable early lead seems inevitable. Afterwards, I think there will be market share shift, though not likely on the level that occured between the 16bit and 32 bit eras, at least at first, while the effect of the larger shift in the US takes it's time to echo back. Then back and forth untill Sony gets screwed like N did with the 64, though worse.

Other contributing factors:

1. I believe that PSP sales so far have been driven by a sub-group of consumers that are insufficient in number to provide a major upset in the handheld market. Early adopters IMO.

The DS could recover from quirky first party Nintendo stuff in JP. Nintendogs has been helping quite a bit already.

A few more like that and voila!

Besides have you compared JP DS vs. PSP software numbers? That's where the money is made.

If one compares the figures for N published DS games to Sony published PSP games, DS is ahead now.

Look at recent the sales figures if you don't believe me.

Once the heavy duty stuff show up on there, both US and Jp sales should see another boost.

The PSP isn't a failure, but it will be relatively anemic in the long run IMO.

2. Also, Nintendo's reputation may see some recovery off of the next Zelda game, which the Rev will be able to run. It won't stop the dumb Sony freaks from laughing, but it will make at least some dent with others IMO. It might stanch the bleeding of GC sales for a time, giving the Rev a larger base.

If the Rev's classic game downloads are cheap and are actually games that held up over the years a signifiacant number people will love them for it IMO. They may be seen as pro-consumer value oriented (hyper backwards compat.) when taken in tandem with the systems lower price point.

If Sony tries to sell PS3 games at $60 standard that will only compound the perception that Nintendo is reasonable.

And we haven't seen what the controller is. I really don't think it will be a detriment to sales, but as far as a boost, that seems a little out there as well.

3. Also, the Blu-ray move is gonna look silly on Sony's fault with the very limited avaiability of movies. Perception, again, will be key. People may see that Sony is pulling a fast one.

And remember how the PS2 sales benefited tremendously early on from DVD playaback. They don't have that impetus behind the PS3. Without that the PS2 might have had it's face rearranged by M$ a bit more.

Manufacturing for the Cell processor may have issues, and the mass production of Blu-ray discs may stumble initially.

Shortages of hardware seem likely, and software shortages seem very possible IMO.

Also, spring as opposed to fall launch will exacerbate both manufacturing and game dev issues, not to mention that it gives people a long time to decide whether to buy Timmy that $450 dollar system for Christmas. It's harder to hype in the US that time of year. There is a mindless desperation and yearning for hot new material goods to the shopping season that might otherwise have saved Sony's ass.

Not to mention that the PS3 is sandwiched between *two* holiday season released consoles.

The successful console of this generation will need to be palatable to the masses, and the PS3 has issues there.

The masses do not buy $400+ consoles, nor are they ready for a new video format. They don't have the TVs for either the high res DVD's or games.

They want a game system with a couple token extra features, like N will give them.

And look at the PS3 controller for crissakes. How will that affect the mind's of consumers?

Any of these things alone might be overcome, but Sony is in for a hell of a fight this time. And this time I don't like their odds.

Let's see how well they can sell to non early adopters this time. That's what it comes down to.

There will be a reckoning. Either Playstaion will be mortally wounded, or the last vestiges of true gaming form before this hellish Sony inflicted dark age.

My bet is on games over arrogance. Arrogance did fun things to the Golden age American games market, it did fun things to the N64, 3DO, and Saturn, and Sony is not immune to this brand of "fun".

This console war is armageddon.

I am mad. But have you heard that Queen song?

"And still I fear and still I dare not laugh at the mad man"

Gaming will be reborn or destroyed. Sega and Nintendo fans uncorrupted shall cast Playstations into the lak... erm... landfill of fire. And one shall be taken to the garbage can and one shall not. And those who remain with the Whore of Sony will suffer much triubulation when the Revolution comes.

And in case of video game rapture, can I have your car?

But seriously, you gotta admit the stakes are higher this time man.

[zmweasel]

I didn't say I wouldn't be troubled at all (it's too late too bitch about Chinese products, as the corporations have annointed the country as their de facto manufacturing center pretty much until wages go up there as well), I said it would be less troubled, which is precisely what you asked to be explained, as quoted by me.

Allow me to rephrase: your conscience is less troubled by purchasing a product created by dirt-poor Chinese laborers than by purchasing a Sony product instead of a Nintendo product. That slight difference certainly does make you seem like much more of a caring, thoughtful human being.

-- Z.

[zmweasel]

I got about a third of the way through your post before I surrendered to your sheer volume. Some of your points are good ones, derived from past history and current fact, but the majority of them are easily refuted and overly reliant on anti-Sony/pro-Nintendo opinions.

I can see a 2010 game industry in which Microsoft is #1 in North America and Sony is #1 in Japan. I don't see the Revolution restoring Nintendo to #1 in either territory, as MS and Sony have too much momentum, too much money, and too many third parties--along with Halo and GTA, the two biggest franchises in the biz.

As for the handheld market, Sony will grab at least half of that by 2010 with the PSP. The DS's E3 lineup was awful (from a casual/mainstream perspective), and the Game Boy Micro is a bizarre stopgap measure.

-- Z.

[FurinkanianFrood]

So your conscience isn't troubled by purchasing a product created by cheap-ass Chinese child labor--which is an outdated stereotype; by most accounts, China is poised to be a major economic force in the 21st century


Even if it isn't necessarily children anymore look at the wages. The children still suffer. The cost of living has increased at a rate a couple orders of magnitude above the increase in wages. Even if someone makes ten times as much as they did, some products cost 1000 times as much as before.

It's even worse than before. The shining coastal cities are just a show put on for Westerners. A ruse to hide the decrepit interior.

China is a bubble. It will eventually be more of a force than it was, but that's not saying much. The Chinese century/ China as a superpower etc. is a myth. It is a gross exaggeration, propagated by many who claim to be very qualified in the goverment, corporations, and the media.

Why would you trust any of those?

[AB Positive]

Let me settle all the arguments here.

XBOX 360 = CRAP

PS3 = CRAP

Revolution = CRAP


No system whatsoever is worth picking up at launch. Except for very few bright stars, 1st/2nd gen games mostly suck for a system.

For every Halo and Soul Calibur there's hundreds of Fantavisions.


I ended up using my xbox the most of the three current gens, but that's only now that the 2d online force is kicking in, plus with odd japanese imports like Phantom Dust being added at $20 price tags. I sold my first xbox because I couldn't find anything I liked. Never making that mistake again.


Wait a year, then start picking sides. There's no reason to make video games a religion.


*goes back to his altar to King*

-AG

[FurinkanianFrood]

I can see a 2010 game industry in which Microsoft is #1 in North America and Sony is #1 in Japan. I don't see the Revolution restoring Nintendo to #1 in either territory, as MS and Sony have too much momentum, too much money, and too many third parties--along with Halo and GTA, the two biggest franchises in the biz.


If the PS3 flies in the US that will happen. If it doesn't swap out Sony for N in Japan in the long run, after Sony's initial large lead.

I don't think the PS3 will fly in the US, which is the actual point where I differ. All of the other crap I laid out is just icing on the cake that would accelerate the process by which the combination of continued decline in the JP game market + poor base in the US would force JP developers to be less PS3 exclusive, which would in turn boost the Rev there, further encouraging defection from PS3.

I see a very slllllllloooowww burn for PS3 in Japan. It will look solid for quite some time to come there even if it bombs here.

Eventually a failure in the US would catch up to Sony.

I may be prophesizing the death of PS4 here and not the PS3 as I thought even.

Of course, if the US market can somehow tolerate the PS3 (again I think it is the less likely propostion, MS has to be factored in here, and I think consumers will be more comfortable with it for cost reasons etc.) I didn't even give some of the arguments in favor of MS yet.

MS will have similar games to Sony, and I think things may tip so much in MS favor (price point!!), that those in the mainstream market who buy a Rev as a second console, when added to N fans and other assorted folks, will tip things to a point where N may actually be able to fight off Sony for what's left here.

If Sony became very weak in the US I believe over a period of several years it would show in Japan.

A critical pivot point is approaching that will determine whether my scenario or weasel's holds true.

Namely, how will the US consumer take the PS3.

MS is gold either wat IMO, Sony's standing in the US market will determine Nintendo's standing worldwide.

Basically, I am saying that if MS kicks Sony's ass in the US this time, Sony might be screwed in the long run, leaving N with what's left.

I actually thought the 360 was a mistake like the PS3 at one point, but it's flaws aren't really there for the mass market IMO.

It should be along the lines of the first one in terms of quality IMO.

[FurinkanianFrood]

Whoops, accidental double post.



No system whatsoever is worth picking up at launch. Except for very few bright stars, 1st/2nd gen games mostly suck for a system.


Like others I foolishly pick systems up at launch to get that weird new junk rush. I am trying to learn not to.

I still say the early DC stuff was good enough to be an exception (IMO it's much better than even late PS2 stuff in most cases). Soul Calibur, PStone, MvsC, KoF98 were enough for me to buy it. And even with the issue at launch with it, Hydro Thunder is pretty fun damnit.

My two favorite systems (Saturn and PCE) I picked up after they were dead. Screw launches.

Gaming as a religion is rather disturbing.

I just argue (and hope not to actually offend people) on here when I'm bored. And I sometimes make goofy religious references as I do so.

My own religion is too anti-material to incorporate gaming.

It's all a matter of degree I suppose.

In the long run, all our consoles are belong to dust anyway.

Consoles like these boards, don't seem too bad a way to pass the time is all.

That's what all my BS is a result of, passing the time.



but that's only now that the 2d online force is kicking in


Amen to that. Before then I was 99% of the time playing Saturn, DC, PCE, Megagrive and such.

Now it's just 95% old stuff, 3-4% XBOX.

As far as GC I bought it at launch for SMBall and Wave Race. I really like the GC Wave Race. Not sure why really.

Since then there has been about what I expected in the way of titles for GC.

XBOX Sega stuff is decent IMO, and the 2D and online play isn't duplicated elsewhere. PS2 online is damn weak.

I am also a psycho Tecmo fan. So the XBOX was a foregone conculsion for me.

[GarrettCRW]

Allow me to rephrase: your conscience is less troubled by purchasing a product created by dirt-poor Chinese laborers than by purchasing a Sony product instead of a Nintendo product. That slight difference certainly does make you seem like much more of a caring, thoughtful human being.

-- Z.

Awww, thank you, Cuddles, I'm touched. Really.

I could go on further, but I'm not going to take the bait here. Sorry. :)

[Icarus Moonsight]

Seriously what else could fit in this description beside games... maybe its some kind of advanced porn? LOL

That may not be far from the truth there Bluteg. Sony recently applied for a patent on a device that influenced and interfaces with a users neurons in the brain to create "an experience".

Sounds to me that VR porn is right around the corner...
Gimmee one second here I feel sorta... :puke:

I fear a more nefarious plot by Sony into brainwashing consumers to "buy polished-turd products and assecories".

George Orwell was right people!!! RUN!

[evildead2099]

I've been playing video games recreationally for more than 25 years, and playing them professionally for more than 15 years.

What, exactly, is a 'professional' player of video games? Do you get paid to play in tournaments like those kids in South Korea? @_@

I haven't dismissed the PS3. Like I said, it may in fact turn out to be the best system ever made. All I'm saying is that $ony's exaggerations concerning the PS2 were so outrageous that I've grown cynical of the likelihood that $ony won't make many of the same mistakes that it made with the PS2.

[evildead2099]

your conscience isn't troubled by purchasing a product created by cheap-ass Chinese child labor--which is an outdated stereotype; by most accounts, China is poised to be a major economic force in the 21st century

I have not disputed the likelihood that China will become a major economic force. But a country status as a major economic force does not necessitate in fair labour policies. Much of China's growth can be traced to the fact that its leaders are willing to have their citizens blatantly exploited by big business - Why else do you think so many multinational corporations (i.e. $ony, Micro$oft, and now, apparently, Nintendo) have contracted manufacturing out to China? China is getting ahead in the global economy because its not enforcing the same labour and environmental standards as the rest of the world.


[Nintendo doesn't] have nearly as much hype and BS to back up as Sony

Actually, with a console named "Revolution," I'd say that Nintendo has more hype to back up than $ony.

[Mr.FoodMonster]

There is one way to summarize this thread.

FANBOYS SUCK

::Stares at FurinkanianFrood::

[Griking]

What about the PS3 will appeal to hardcore gamers? It'll have the most third-party software support, and certainly the most Japanese third-party support. It'll be the most powerful console in the world at the time of its launch. It'll have robust PSP connectivity. It'll have robust HDTV support. It'll have PS1/PS2 backwards compatibility (and hopefully with PS2-esque visual-tweak options).

Wow, don't get me wrong, I respect you opinion and all but it sounds like you've COMPLETELY drinken the Sony Kool-Aid.

You're completely convinced that the PS3 will be everythig that you say above (will it also slice bread?) simply because Sony PR reps say it will?

The Most Powerful Console in the World - Haven't we all read this sort of hype before? Wasn't the Dreamcast also the most powerful console when it was released?

PSP Connectivity - No offense again but "so what"?

The most Third Party support - I'm actually quite happy with the Xbox's library andMicrosoft seems to be picking up more and more developers as time goes on. I'm really not too worried about Microsoft getting support.

HDTV Support - I don't have a HDTV but doesn't the Xbox already have this?

don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the PS3 definately won't be everything that Sony says it will, I'm just going to take a wait and see attitude until it comes out and then make up my mind instead of blindly taking Sony's word for it.

[zmweasel]

China is a bubble. It will eventually be more of a force than it was, but that's not saying much. The Chinese century/ China as a superpower etc. is a myth. It is a gross exaggeration, propagated by many who claim to be very qualified in the goverment, corporations, and the media.

Why would you trust any of those?

I certainly don't trust the Dubya administration, but that's why I read Salon.com and The Economist, two liberal, independent, and well-respected media organizations.

And of course corporations act in their best financial interest, whether it's Nintendo or Wal-Mart.

Am I a conspiracy theorist? No. Do I believe the media is creating a mythological 21st-century China? No. Economic experts with much bigger brains than I have laid out the reasons why a de-Communized China is going to compete very strongly with the United States and the EU in the 21st century. Have I been to China to verify these developments with my own eyes? Alas, no. Have you?

-- Z.

[swlovinist]

The PS3 is not a console at all, it is a multimedia device. While I think this is where gaming is going, I could give a shit. At most I want to play games on my "console", and go online to play games. I do play DVD/CDs out of my PS2, but that is about it. The next wave of consoles have to raise bar in order to justify someone paying $300 to $500 for something different than what they already have under their TVs already. I think it is too early to tell what the games are going to look like, but for me personally...I am not going to buy one on launch date. If the prices do end up being close to $400/$500.00 for the PS3, I will speak with my non-purchase. I think that Sony and Microsoft have become so arrogant, that they might of lost the core reason why many play video games. Let us just hope that the system is not coming out for awhile and that it gives the designers some time to possibly make the system cheaper and to fix the "bat controller". I will however support any console from any company that offers a core gaming device at a reasonable price. I consider myself a hardcore collector more than a gamer. I'll take that $500.00 they want for a PS3 and go purchase myself my last NES game!

[zmweasel]

You're completely convinced that the PS3 will be everythig that you say above (will it also slice bread?) simply because Sony PR reps say it will?

None of the statements I made in my previous post are controversial, or even debatable, and yet you're stunned. Why?

Sony's most-powerful claim will become fact if current PS3 and X360 specs hold until release. Nintendo certainly isn't disputing that the Revolution will be the least powerful of the three, and while Microsoft can bitch and moan and spin, the PS3 clearly has more beef than the X360.


The Most Powerful Console in the World - Haven't we all read this sort of hype before? Wasn't the Dreamcast also the most powerful console when it was released?

Yes, it was, but it was released by a flailing company with severe management and money problems.


PSP Connectivity - No offense again but "so what"?

Seeing as the PSP will likely hold half or more of the portable market in five years' time, the connectivity is a big deal. You aren't excited by the potential of a more robust form of GC/GBA connectivity, or by the ability to copy mini-games from the PS3 to the PSP's Memory Stick Duo?


The most Third Party support - I'm actually quite happy with the Xbox's library andMicrosoft seems to be picking up more and more developers as time goes on. I'm really not too worried about Microsoft getting support.

I'm not worried about it, either. I'm stating that Sony will have the MOST third-party support with PS3, as it does with PS2, and certainly in Japan. Microsoft has purchased the love of a few high-profile Japanese developers, but Sony still has the healthy majority of them.


HDTV Support - I don't have a HDTV but doesn't the Xbox already have this?

As does the PS2 and GC. The key word is "robust." PS3 games will be primarily designed for the widescreen/HD spec (as will X360 games).

Again, what did I say that was controversial or debatable?

-- Z.

[zmweasel]

What, exactly, is a 'professional' player of video games? Do you get paid to play in tournaments like those kids in South Korea? @_@

I only mentioned my background as a pro because my credentials as a "hardcore" gamer were questioned in an earlier post. ("You can say that [you're hardcore]...")

I've been a published game journo since 1990. Not self-published in fanzine or websites, but by prozines and prosites (Wired, GameSpy, GamePro, VG&CE, et cet). I also spent three years at Working Designs as the "Vice-President of Game Content," meaning I worked on text localization and strategy guides.

-- Z.

[lendelin]

There is one way to summarize this thread.

FANBOYS SUCK

::Stares at FurinkanianFrood::

AMEN to that!! :)

I mean, really, Funkanionfrood, I haven't read so many unrelated, deflecting, unrealistic and simplistic assumptions and conclusions in a long time.

Instead of loving or hating hardware manufacturers, love or hate games. We only love systems through games.

I leave it to zmweasel to bring some resoning and reality into your love/hate babble. (sorry, it can't be characterized in another way)

Two things:

1. Outsourcing is a bit more complicated. PRAY that there will be more outsourcing in the US otherwise you'll end up with a high unemployment rate.

2. For your "main argument" of the price tag: I missed it because your posts consist of mainly a bunch of unrelated sentences about God and the world.

If a $400 or $450 price of the PS3 is your main argument, then it is a non-argument; because we don't know! How do you know? Do you know what's in this little machine, waht kind of chips? Do you know how much it is to manufacture these "somethings"? Did you ever make a cost calculation? Do you know what goes into it? Did you ever calculate costs(material, labor, fix costs, variable costs, for a set number of units and per unit with advanced calculus)?

Armchair estimates won't help in particular if there is a little something Sony doesn't know yet which influneces the launch price also: the price of the 360. You've seen the tip of a rabbit foot and you put a price on the entire rabbit ?

I guess you are smarter than Sony.

For the love of God, get a grip of reality. To trash a system we hardly know a thing about, and to trash its software we don't know at all at least a year before it is even launched is pure NONSENSE. It's ridiculous.

I maintained that you fell for marketing hype and now go into the other extreme direction. After THIS sentence...


"Gamers" have picked up on reality and have already written off PS3 as trash.

...I rest my case. I think your reality is not the reality of most gamers.

If you produced a sentence like that in a meeting of Nintendo executives, they would smile and say "Go in the other room, little boy, and play with our nice little toys."

Do we have to expect now for the next year a new thread by lovers/haters everytime the marketing divisions of Sony, MS and N fart?

Analyse the market startegies and take them as that; that's interesting. Don't make conclusions about the quality of the hardware and software based on marketing babble which is mainly euphemistic spin.

At least WAIT until you see and play the consoles and the games...then you can talk unrealistic trash.

[PS2Hawk]

http://gearmedia.ign.com/gear/image/article/615/615987/e3-2005-playstation-3-pics-20050518113522253.jpg

looks like a sick console to me..

[Sylentwulf]

Lets be realistic. 99.999999999999999999999% of the game playing WORLD don't know crap. Here are your choices:

Buy a Nintendo system, which is guaranteed to have SOME fun games, do nothing but games, and be reasonably middle priced. I say middle priced because the games NEVER go down in price, even most players choice games have a $30 price point, and they don't have many below $50 release games.

But an xbox system, which will only have american styled games, tons of sports, fps, and other macho male crap that looks and sounds great, and plays pretty damn well, but has almost NO original games for it (Halo is NOT an original game, Blinx is.)

Buy a Playstation system. Completely average in all aspects except for the fact that it's the subbessor to the most popular system out right now in any country in the world, by a longshot. And IS guaranteed to have RPG's, and japanese type games (ie, original). System will also be riddled with defects, redisigned a few times, and have a price point equal to xbox games and system.

[XxMe2NiKxX]

"Gamers" have picked up on reality and have already written off PS3 as trash. You are thinking of consumers. Consumers who don't have that much to spend on a console and so likely won't buy it anyway.

I'm a gamer, and I haven't written off the PS3 at all. Hardcore gamers will be the ones picking up the PS3 at launch.What the hell are you basing that on? YOU do not represent the entire population of hardcore gamers. Don't even pretend that you are. I would have let it go if you had put out even the least of proof that this was possible. You're saying it as if it's a fact.



There should be more footage if there is really going to be a spring release.

Do you feel the same way about the Revolution, seeing as Nintendo didn't show *any* game footage from a system due to ship next year?The revolution's launch date is TBD. Kthx.

[SoulBlazer]

*Wonders in, wondering how a new thread can get so many replies in so short a time*

*Sees right away it's another fanboyism, bashing, hate thread that is all too common around here these days*

*Sighs and leaves, muttering to himself about the intelligence of the average person on here.*

[Ed Oscuro]

Of course Sony wants it to be seen as more than a "games console." Sony wants people to start to equate "moves = PlayStation," and most likely other devious combinations of entertainment with programming that we haven't even thought of.

Even if Jesus doesn't come back to earth for the system launch, it'd be nice to give PC manufacturers a reason to update that flaky old PC architecture.

I saw this coming, though I can't argue that I made that clear (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=686862).

[zmweasel]

What the hell are you basing that on? YOU do not represent the entire population of hardcore gamers. Don't even pretend that you are. I would have let it go if you had put out even the least of proof that this was possible. You're saying it as if it's a fact.

It's common sense, really: most early adopters of new consoles are avid ("hardcore") gamers who want the latest and greatest gaming tech, and who haven't foolishly pledged their souls to a single manufacturer. Casual gamers don't buy $300+ consoles. No one in the hardware industry would dispute this.


The revolution's launch date is TBD. Kthx.

All three consoles' PRECISE launch dates are TBD, but Microsoft plans to ship the Xbox 360 in Q4 '05, Sony has pledged to ship the PS3 in Q1 '06, and a Revolution component supplier leaked that Nintendo plans to ship in mid-'06, which of course it must. It can't afford to give too much of a head start to the more powerful consoles.

When did YOU think it was going to ship?

Also: the only reason the DS has a lead on the PSP in worldwide hardware sales (if that's still the case--I haven't seen recent numbers) is because of its head start.

-- Z.

[evildead2099]

PRAY that there will be more outsourcing in the US otherwise you'll end up with a high unemployment rate.

How is the outsourcing of jobs from the United States to third world countries supposed to prevent a high unemployment rate? America's government isn't doing much to create high skill jobs in place of the low skill jobs (i.e. manufacturing) that are outsourced; instead, it leaves job creation to the private sector, which encourages the creation of more low skill, low paying service occupations (i.e. Wal-Mart, McJobs). Many people who once made decent wages working for GM are now making next to nothing at Wal-Mart. They have little money to support their kids and contribute back to their community.

[vintagegamecrazy]

I am going to voice my opinion

Gameplay = excellent variety of games.

Quality= plain rotting turd, I used to love their products because they held up and worked great, now they just plain fall apart including PS2.

Hay everyone, what's Sony worth?

Around $50 a letter!!!!

[Ed Oscuro]

Quality= plain rotting turd, I used to love their products because they held up and worked great, now they just plain fall apart including PS2.
Including the PS2? Name one other product that's had as much to do with the "low quality" image Sony's gotten.

That's right. ONE product has started this belief. Sony's reliability has been the gold standard since the company came to the US in the 1960s. Incidentally, it was the after-sales service that was intially lacking.

[classicb]

Z

please tell me how the PS3 appeals to hardcore gamers (such as yourself) what about the PS3 make you want to go out and buy it over the other two.

What about the PS3 will appeal to hardcore gamers? It'll have the most third-party software support, and certainly the most Japanese third-party support. It'll be the most powerful console in the world at the time of its launch. It'll have robust PSP connectivity. It'll have robust HDTV support. It'll have PS1/PS2 backwards compatibility (and hopefully with PS2-esque visual-tweak options).

I'll also purchase the Xbox 360 and Revolution at launch, of course, just as I've purchased almost every system of the past 15 years at launch. I'm a fanboy of games and their designers, not of consoles and their manufacturers.

-- Z.

Well if you get all three at launch you're lucky I know I sure would like too. But I can't afford to do that and I'm sure many other can't as well. So us people who can't afford to do that normally try and pick the best one and then pick up the others when their price drops.

I'm not a fanboy of any system (not even the n-gage ;) ) last time I got a Gamecube at launch and didn't get a PS2 untill about a year ago and didn't get an Xbox untill recently. I'm saying this because even though I've enjoyed the Gamecube it was probably the wrong system to get. I've had far more fun on my PS2 than my Gamecube. I still think the PS2 is junky but I think were in agreement that its about the games and the PS2 had the games I wanted.

So I'm just trying to make the best decision and my first reaction was get the PS3 its going to have all the games you want. Then I see articles from my fav company Tecmo slamming it. Then i find out it's "not a console" So now I'm leaning torward the 360. I think Microsoft knows what they need to do to get more 3rd party support and their doing it.

Do you really think the PS3 will be the best next gen console/super computer. If you could only get one (as I will at first) which one would you get?

[evildead2099]

Sony's reliability has been the gold standard since the company came to the US in the 1960s.

Read my post in this thread re: the switch from "Made in Japan" to "Made in China."

[evildead2099]

*Wonders in, wondering how a new thread can get so many replies in so short a time*

You think THIS is worth contemplating? Take a look at the success of the "Went to Wal Mart today to buy a Dreamcast WHERE?!!1!" thread (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=61656). I find it alarming to say the least.


*Sees right away it's another fanboyism, bashing, hate thread that is all too common around here these days*

I hope you aren't making reference to me. Is it possible to express one's disappointment in a particular console (and/or the business decisions made by the company responsible for that console) without coming off as a hater / basher? x_x

[zmweasel]

So I'm just trying to make the best decision and my first reaction was get the PS3 its going to have all the games you want. Then I see articles from my fav company Tecmo slamming it. Then i find out it's "not a console" So now I'm leaning torward the 360. I think Microsoft knows what they need to do to get more 3rd party support and their doing it.

Tecmo is talking smack about the PS3 because it's one of the few Japanese developers that supported the Xbox from the get-go, thanks to monetary/co-marketing incentives from MS. Remember the "She kicks high" commercial?


Do you really think the PS3 will be the best next gen console/super computer. If you could only get one (as I will at first) which one would you get?

If I could only get one of the new systems at launch, it'd be the PS3. If I could get two, it'd be the PS3 and Xbox 360. Sony's and Microsoft's first- and third-party games are the ones that appeal most to my personal tastes.

Currently, if there's a multi-platform (PS2/Xbox) game, I'll choose the Xbox version, which'll probably have 480p/16:9 graphics and definitely have Dolby Digital 5.1, whereas PS2 titles rarely support 480p/16:9 and can only generate Dolby Pro Logic II for in-game sound. I don't expect such a drastic performance gap between the PS3 and Xbox 360, but I do expect PS3 versions to run at a higher spec than 360 versions. (1080i vs. 720p?)

-- Z.

[Captain Wrong]

Any one else find irony in Nintendo fanboys criticizing Sony for over hyping a machine?

[PS2Hawk]

Nintendo lost the edge after SNES, I dun care wat Nintendo fanboys say....

[lendelin]

Lets calm down this 'discussion.'

Funkanionfrood and evildead, look, a lot of your anti-sentiment against Sony seems to root in their hardware. I agree that the PS2 is probably the most unreliable hardware among the three consoles.

I had a discussion about it with zmweasel (about two years or so ago), and in the meantime I think we agree. Based on reports in mags, talks with employees in stores, and a little poll I did on this site, the most hardware probs has probably the PS2. Good.

But this didn't prevent Sony from becoming THE dominant market leader, did it? Sony got a headstart, and N and MS from very different starting positions (and market strategies) couldn't catch up. The Xbox has all the momentum in the world, and MS learned the lesson: never give Sony a headstart again.

About the PS2 software: the PS2 has the most well-balanced library in every genre with the most choices (first quality and second rate games) for the simple fact that it is the most established system. When the other systems launched, the PS2 finally overcame its poor lineup of titles of the first nine months, and after two holiday seasons the race was over....because of GAMES (third party support) and an established consumer support.

If the GC were the market leader, they would have the almost identical library of the PS2. Third party publishers follow the money trace. For various reasons it was the SNES, then the PS1, now it's the PS2. Final Fantasy X would be on the GC together with Growlanser Generations and Phantom Brave.

Therefore I never understood how a gamer can have strong anti-feelings towards one system; neither can I understand how gamers can accuse the 'mainstream' to connect simplistically economic success with game quality when they do exactly the same. In this case it is the equation poor economic performance and good quality. In reality, sales figures say little about game quality if you look at a single (!) game. The best selling title can be the geratest game on earth or simply terrible.

Trash talk is cheap, looking at reality and looking for explanations creates headaches; it is a condition to start thinking.

[lendelin]

Any one else find irony in Nintendo fanboys criticizing Sony for over hyping a machine?

Yep, it is the old horse shoe model: the radicals are very similar. If you reach the two ends of the horse shoe, the opposing extremists converge and look alike. Attitudes, means, and reasoning are exchangeable. The worst enemies should actually love each other because they are very similar. I don't know if it is a blessing or a curse that they won't love each other. :)

[lendelin]

PRAY that there will be more outsourcing in the US otherwise you'll end up with a high unemployment rate.

How is the outsourcing of jobs from the United States to third world countries supposed to prevent a high unemployment rate? America's government isn't doing much to create high skill jobs in place of the low skill jobs (i.e. manufacturing) that are outsourced; instead, it leaves job creation to the private sector, which encourages the creation of more low skill, low paying service occupations (i.e. Wal-Mart, McJobs). Many people who once made decent wages working for GM are now making next to nothing at Wal-Mart. They have little money to support their kids and contribute back to their community.

Ah, let's not go there, otherwise you'll get a very boring lecture with lots of data. :) Additionally, I learned not to discuss politics on the net, and it has nothing to do with the topic.

A videogame related issue is to what extent game developers have to outsource facing increasing development costs. It already happens, and will increase (not to the extent of manufacturing sneakers, though); but this has also nothing to do with the topic.

[PS2Hawk]

the only good game xbox has is Ninja Gaiden, and that game should have easily sold millions of xboxes but it didn't....
Ninja Gaiden is probably the only reason I still have my xbox.

[XxMe2NiKxX]

Sorry, but what did that have to do with anything?

I honestly think that this is WAY too early to call anything.

One thing I'm wondering, though; What about other companies entering the console buisness? I don't think it's too late to eliminate that as a possiblity, and it would blow many of the predictions made in this thread away.

I'll be buying a 360, BTW. Like the games.

[Ed Oscuro]

Sony's reliability has been the gold standard since the company came to the US in the 1960s.
Read my post in this thread re: the switch from "Made in Japan" to "Made in China."
I'm not stupid; we all know that "Made in China" is the hot topic today. That's a change that's been made by tons of companies recently, including Nintendo, which invalidates your point. The PlayStation 2 is the only reason the company's quality has been questioned recently, and even then I'm not sure the stigma is warranted when looking at reliability for the Xbox. The truth is that we demand cheap but high-performance hardware, and it doesn't matter where you build it if tolerances are high but price must be kept down. That's an issue every PC owner who's had a hard drive die on them (I've had my share) knows quite well, but it's not always natural to make the connection.

[GarrettCRW]

The PlayStation 2 is the only reason the company's quality has been questioned recently,

Among gamers, yes. However, Sony's value in consumer electronics has been notoriously slipping over the past few years-if not for the entertainment divisions (which SCEA is considered a part of), the company would be hurting, much like all of these other megacorporate dinosaurs running around, merging for no good reason.

[Lothars]

I honestly disagree with people that say sony playstation 2 quality of hardware is bad

I've had mine for at least 2 and a half years and never had one problem, I have friends that bought them on launch day and still haven't had problems

I think alot of the people complaining are anti fanboys espcially previous posters in this topic such as Furnik his post come accross to me to be really anti sony

I am for the most part pro sony but it's because I own alot of sony stuff and have never had a problem, it means quality.

now I also think that the xbox 360 is more of a xbox 1.5 at the moment but doesn't mean it won't do great things, and im really excited about the revolution

I probaly will buy all 3 systems next generation or at least 2 of the 3 but who knows.

I don't expect Microsoft to gain enough marketshare that they are trying to, I think sony will still come out ahead.

than again I honestly don't want microsoft to lead becuase only bad things can come from that.

I would also like to see the revolution to do some awesome things and regain some market share.

in the end I will buy a ps3 mostly because It's the system that really shines to me. it's far to early to tell what's gonna happen

so let's sit back and enjoy.

[Ed Oscuro]

However, Sony's value in consumer electronics has been notoriously slipping over the past few years
Show me where their products are going bad. Nobody else is saying that; there's no public outcry over Sony's product quality outside of the PS2 and I argue that's because the standards haven't actually lowered, certainly not in relation to other companies at all. Any "slippage" would be, again, due to the fact that they put out items at high tolerances for relatively little money, but their products perform no worse than those of their competitors.

[Nz17]

Zach, stop now: this is turning into another USERNET / Working Designs incident!

[CRV]

Show me where their products are going bad. Nobody else is saying that; there's no public outcry over Sony's product quality outside of the PS2 and I argue that's because the standards haven't actually lowered, certainly not in relation to other companies at all. Any "slippage" would be, again, due to the fact that they put out items at high tolerances for relatively little money, but their products perform no worse than those of their competitors.

I had read almost nothing but bad things about their blank video cassette tapes (yeah, yeah, yeah, who's using video tapes anymore...).