Enough is enough and it's time to take a stand! (No Joke)

[djbeatmongrel]

Now i defend games of the violent ilk, GTA, Manhunt (especially manhunt :^P) etc. I think once you look past the violent aspect you'll find damn good gameplay and stories. These games are really the R rated of the industry. Even the content of the Hot Coffee mod is on the same level as what you would see in an R rated film (mind you the R rating IS intended for 17+ unless there is a guardian present).

Really its more of a store side and parenting issue, not government regulatory issue. If the government gets its hand in this even deeper it will entrench on freedom of speech and it doesn't hold the right people accountable.
-The games with and M rating should not be sold to minors
-Any one that doesn't look of age should be carded or have a parent or gaurdian to purchase the game for them
-If a parent or gaurdian does purchase the game, the M rating should be explain to them before the game is purchased.
-The PARENTS should be held accountable if a game is blamed for a childs actions if the kid is not of age due to neglecting to monitor the material the child is exposed to.

Using games as a scapegoat is the easiest excuse to have when it really is not the publishers fualt since there is most likely a rating on the game that covers the content of the game. I appluad gamestores that card. i think its company policy now (not sure) but the Gamestop i go to has been doing it ever since i became a regular there a little over 2 years ago and they do make sure a parent knows that a title is not suitable for children.

Really the one thing to understand about all this crap with videogame and internet regulation laws is that these governors and senators are try to boost their resumes by getting flimsy laws made. It makes there chances for being elected to a political position a lot better when the public sees that they've past a few laws in the recent years. All this crap is resume fluff

[jajaja]

Now i defend games of the violent ilk, GTA, Manhunt (especially manhunt :^P) etc. I think once you look past the violent aspect you'll find damn good gameplay and stories.

Isnt manhunt all about killing in diffrent ways? If you look past that, whats left?

[djbeatmongrel]

Now i defend games of the violent ilk, GTA, Manhunt (especially manhunt :^P) etc. I think once you look past the violent aspect you'll find damn good gameplay and stories.

Isnt manhunt all about killing in diffrent ways? If you look past that, whats left?

Manhunt is about surviving one mans sadistic reality and making your way through a horrific night where you are subjected to being the fox in a fox chase. Killing just happens to be the only thing to keep you alive and apease the demented director

[Griking]

What 'real' game stores do you have in mind? Gamestop, Electronics Boutique, Best Buy, Future Shop, Circuit City, and (surprise!) Wal-Mart have all confirmed that they will not sell AO-rated games in their stores.

As I said before, my local Electronic Botiques all have GTA SA on their store shelves now that they have the AO rating on them. An no, they're not hidden behind the counter covered in a brown paper bag or anything. My local Strawberries has the AO rated game as well. I know that Strawberries is owned by a larger conglomerate but I can't remember off of the top of my head who.

[jajaja]

Now i defend games of the violent ilk, GTA, Manhunt (especially manhunt :^P) etc. I think once you look past the violent aspect you'll find damn good gameplay and stories.

Isnt manhunt all about killing in diffrent ways? If you look past that, whats left?

Manhunt is about surviving one mans sadistic reality and making your way through a horrific night where you are subjected to being the fox in a fox chase. Killing just happens to be the only thing to keep you alive and apease the demented director

Ok, havnt tried it myself. Wont do it either. But it still all killing, so if you take away it its not much left hehe.

[MrSmiley381]

At first, this guy worried me...

But now?

He's an asshat, pure and simple. He's provided me with a few good laughs. I think we should just send a few e-mails to CNN and Fox News with examples of how he replied to our intelligent e-mails. Honestly, unless people start giant KKK equivalent meetings, we should be fine. Honestly, the guy is an idiot. He speaks Bible-jargin (sp?) and then goes off and yaps. I find him more weird as opposed to making an intelligent point.

Personally, I think I'm going to pose as one of his supporters and e-mail him, just to see what kind of crazy thing he sends back.

[njiska]

It's really nice to see so many of you joining into the disscussion but i think we need to take a moment and clarify a few things.

1. AO does not compare to a Parental advisory in meaning or worth. The only direct comparision you can make is AO = NC-17 if you're an american, R if you're a Canadian (using the Canadian home video rating system) and 18 if you're from the UK.

2. The AO rating is seen as a death nail by the industry. AO means you're not going to be carried in a lot of mainstream stores and like it or not it's those mainstream stores (Wal-mart, Best Buy, Circut City, Futureshop, ETC.) that keep the industry alive. If a game receives and AO then it will be cut down to receive an M just like a movie would be. The Best example of this occuring would be THQ's The Punisher. It was originally rated AO by the ESRB and was subsequently altered to receive an M. The censorship in The Punisher ruined the one thing the game had going for it, the interogations. Instead of witnessing a bloody finish (more then justified in The Punisher universe) the camera would pan away and everything would go black and white. It ruined it. As a person who has hacked the game to reveal the original scenes, I can tell you it's much better with out the censorship.

3. We are not trying to say that M rated games should be given to people who are under 17. The rating exisits for a reason and we wish to uphold it. This is about 3 things: Censorship, Quality and preventing the goverment from becoming involved in the rating process. The ESRB is the most detailed and advanced rating system in the world, we shouldn't let it be bad mouthed and destroyed. Even if a law is passed that says only people over 17 can buy M rated games, it doesn't matter if the rules for deciding AO vs. M have changed.

4. The reason we are focusing on Jack Thompson is because A: He openly insults us because of our interests and refuses to listen to our side, and B: Jack is questioning the value of the ESRB and desires to bring it down, most likely replacing it with a goverment ratings body. Do you really want to let that happen?

5. If you're going to post here great, we'd all love to hear your side. Whatever it maybe, but please read all the posts before you add your 2 cents, this will help prevent a lot of people repeating the same arguements we already had hours or even days ago.

6. If you feel like e-mailing Jack please do, but be the bigger man. Don't resort to cheap insults like he does. Don't threaten him or imply that you wish harm to come to him in anyway. This is partly to keep us from sounding like a bunch of idiots, but it's also to protect you. Jack's a lawyer don't think for a second that he wouldn't try to use the law against you for something you said that he has a hard copy of.

7. If you receive any replys from Jack please forward the e-mail to me, especially if they're offensive. diskoboy and i are trying to gather as many as we can. Even if they aren't something we can directly use against him they do paint an ugly picture. All personal information will be kept private and this is completely voluntary. If you don't wish to share you're conversations with Jack with us, we fully understand and will not ask you for it.

8. If anyone knows something we can do to hurt Jack (credibility or profession wise, not physically) please voice your idea.

9. Anyone in Ohio if you can figure out where Jack is gonna be making his announcement tomorrow I implore you to gather your friends and protest him. It will show them that we care.

10. Keep on, keepin' on.

[MrSmiley381]

No luck finding where he's going to be here in Ohio tomorrow. Google didn't help much, but I may give it another shot, and send him an e-mail now. I'd like to have an argument with this guy in real life and see if he give me the answers of a three-year-old. I mean, jeese, the parents have the buying power. There are loopholes, such as trading with friends or corrupt salesman, or being very beardy like me, but those are still tough to pull off to play a damn game.

[njiska]

No luck finding where he's going to be here in Ohio tomorrow. Google didn't help much, but I may give it another shot, and send him an e-mail now. I'd like to have an argument with this guy in real life and see if he give me the answers of a three-year-old. I mean, jeese, the parents have the buying power. There are loopholes, such as trading with friends or corrupt salesman, or being very beardy like me, but those are still tough to pull off to play a damn game.

Give me him and a public forum and just watch the fire-works. Un fortunantely that's not gonna happen. Unless we unite as one we can't take him on like that.

[MrSmiley381]

OK, here's the e-mail I sent him:

Dear Mr. Thompson,
I've noticed that you are on a holy crusade against video games and their makers. Yes, you seem to be going very drastically, but maybe that is required. What is it in these games that you think makes ordinary people so evil? I'd like to know, so I can avoid them at all costs.

Your supporter,
Anthony

I'm absolutely going to shit my pants laughing when he says the devil is in video games. Honestly. I'm going to try Google one more time to see where he's going to be. Wish me luck!

[njiska]

http://www2.ltlowe.com/~suprnova/DP/war.GIF

Sorry i didn't notice this before.

IGN's News post on Jack Thompsons and Killer 7 (http://cube.ign.com/articles/639/639809p1.html)

I'm particularly worried about this part:


"If I were you, Ms. Vance, I would immediately ask the makers of this game, and all retailers, to pull it from store shelves. If you don't, expect for others to use this latest scandal, which I am hereby officially kicking off, to call for a dismantling of the ESRB. The fox has guarded the chickens long enough. Killer 7 seems to prove it."

There you have it. Jack wants the ESRB gone. If that's not proof that we are at war, then i don't know what Is. WE MUST UNITE.

[NintendoMan]

Adults can still buy the games. So what's the problem? Their only censoring minors. Go big deal.

I'm thinking the same thing!! I mean I get your point, but adults can still buy the games and their just cracking down EVEN HARDER on minors buying the games. So why do you care so much what the games rated??

[MrSmiley381]

I think the worry is that the goverment will somehow screw everything up with cencorship. It's a long shot, but if that happens, I'm going to have to import everything.

[njiska]

Adults can still buy the games. So what's the problem? Their only censoring minors. Go big deal.

I'm thinking the same thing!! I mean I get your point, but adults can still buy the games and their just cracking down EVEN HARDER on minors buying the games. So why do you care so much what the games rated??

Why do i care about what they are rated? Go read what i posted a few posts back. The nice list. It should make everything clear. The rating matters because if it gets an AO then it loses sales and most likely won't get released. Then we get stuck with a waterewd down version. My comment about The Punisher is an example.

[njiska]

My letter to the ESRB:


Hello,

I would just like to know what the ESRB is planning on doing about the recent accusations made by one, Jack Thompson, about the rating on Killer 7.

I'm part of an international community of gamers who are trying to compile as much info as we can on what Jack has been trying to do. We support the ESRB and the fine job it has done with rating games so far and do not wish to see it's name soiled by Jack Thompson. If there's anything we can do to support the organization we would like to know.

Thank You.

Let's see if i get a useful response.

[evildead2099]

Adults can still buy the games. So what's the problem? Their only censoring minors. Go big deal.

I'm thinking the same thing!! I mean I get your point, but adults can still buy the games and their just cracking down EVEN HARDER on minors buying the games. So why do you care so much what the games rated??

For Christ's sake, read some of the points that people have made before you ask "why do you care so much what the games rated??" The answer has been covered exhaustively. :roll:

[evildead2099]

I'm absolutely going to shit my pants laughing when he says the devil is in video games.

That would certainly be funny, but at the same time, I fear that he may take you seriously and take things even further under the understanding that people like yourself support him. He seems very literal minded, not unlike the Christian fundamentalists behind the PMRC, so I have doubts about his ability to comprehend sarcasm.

[kainemaxwell]

What 'real' game stores do you have in mind? Gamestop, Electronics Boutique, Best Buy, Future Shop, Circuit City, and (surprise!) Wal-Mart have all confirmed that they will not sell AO-rated games in their stores.

As I said before, my local Electronic Botiques all have GTA SA on their store shelves now that they have the AO rating on them. An no, they're not hidden behind the counter covered in a brown paper bag or anything. My local Strawberries has the AO rated game as well. I know that Strawberries is owned by a larger conglomerate but I can't remember off of the top of my head who.

Trans World Entertainment, or TWEC. Strawberry's is one the stores owned by them, like my FYE is. Yeah, we have SA back on the shelves, with a nice AO sticker on the new and used copies and are coming down hard with checking ids for anyone wanting to purchase it.

[NintendoMan]

Why do i care about what they are rated? Go read what i posted a few posts back. The nice list. It should make everything clear. The rating matters because if it gets an AO then it loses sales and most likely won't get released. Then we get stuck with a waterewd down version. My comment about The Punisher is an example.

Yeah, that's definately true. The games will be losing alot of sales. I was in Wal-Mart yesterday and saw printed signs on how they NO longer carry GTA games. They did still however still have God Of War and The Punisher for sale.
I still don't think it will EVER hurt GTA's sales enough where Rockstar will feel it. I.E. - Instead of selling like 10 million units of a game, they might only sell 8-9 million. Yes, in retrospect that's alot, but not enough to really matter.
Now, in the Punisher's case, or some other title, it DEFINATELY will hurt. I do agree with your points, but to me it really doesn't matter as I don't play the "REALLY" violent, I guess you would say, games enough to matter to me if it comes out or not. I guess the only "TRUELY" violent game I have really enjoyed would be RE4, but do you think that game would fall into the "AO" category. Maybe not?

[NintendoMan]

For Christ's sake, read some of the points that people have made before you ask "why do you care so much what the games rated??" The answer has been covered exhaustively. :roll:

Whoa relax dude! I have read them, but still don't think it will matter that much on the sales part. But then again, it definately will. I know I am double sided on this so I guess will just have to wait and see what games this does affect.

All in all, while I love playing M rated games, (EXCEPT for GTA, don't like those at all), I don't care what happens because give me MARIO anyday over GTA, or whatever other "M" rated game.

[FurinkanianFrood]

OK. Here I go with a serious post on this issue.

1. It isn't a first amendment issue because no one is literally stopping anything from being made, sold, or such.
2. It is a nasty attempt to circumvent the 1st amendment by attempting to cause economic damage to companies that release games with certain content by coopting retailers rating policies.
3. Developers will either play the "skirting the line" game like happens with other more regulated media (shock jocks vs. FCC et al.) or stores will revise their policies.

Please consider, at least for a moment, that some games maybe actually should have an AO rating. Certainly not most of those targeted thus far, but still.

If the ratings were properly defined (they aren't), the worst case scenario as I see it is developers taking more effort to stay within MA territory, just as movies must stay within R to make it to theaters.

The main problem is fools like Thompson who continually try to force more and more content into the forbidden territory, until everything is bunnies (the actual animal ones, or cartoon facsimiles of those that is) and sunshine. And farts like him will always be around, but at some point even relatively conservative folk have to stop and look and say "Why is this rated AO?"

Even really uptight folks would have a hard time rating things based on content that isn't there.

The line between MA and AO needs to be better defined to give developers a chance to fix things.

If something really does have explicit sex scenes or even frontal nudity (not counting featureless "dolls" mind you, again, I'm not referring to the games Thompson has targeted necessarily), they will be considered adult material by American standards, and might as well be rated thusly.

The concessions developers need to make to be in safe territory aren't that much as long as they remember that American conservatives have no problem with seeing people blown to bits, they just psychotically attempt to suppress sexuality.

Anyhow, in an attempt to explain my goofy earlier post, I just like seeing Rockstar (well technically their corporate parent) get kicked around.

I certainly don't agree with the abuse of the system by people like Thompson who try to unrealistically redefine standards, but the current game rating system does need work.

And while San Andreas and it's ilk shouldn't be played by small children (I think it's trashy in general, but I'm not the damn thought police), the blame in cases I've witnessed lies with the parents.

One reason ratings fail is that parents willfully the infomation they provide.

Companies like Rockstar make plenty of money off adult players, so if parents would just pay attention......

Of course, the kids would just play it at friends house etc., but then other parents are the problem.

Anyhow, while I may disdain, mock, and even occasionally despise companies who substitute violence and such for solid gameplay, they aren't the largest problem, though admittedly they do sometimes market such things to kids.

The people who prefer shock value to gameplay are the largest problem. If people weren't dumb enough to think the crap is cool then it wouldn't made.

LCDenominator content = $$$$$. Look at "reality tv".

Tastelessness is the enemy. Money is powerful. So like I said in an earlier post, let folks like Jack bang his head against the wall. All they do is irritate people until they get exhausted and give up. They can't fight money/power/the other (even larger) side of bullshit fascist crap.

In the meantime I like seeing Rockstar get what I feel they had coming. After all, how the hell does one accidentally make a minigame like that? They just hid it to provide an alibi is all.

If companies try to play fast and loose with the rating system it's their own fault.

As long as the 1st amendment isn't really involved, as in this case, I'll just laugh as two sets of paranoids have at one another.

I am kind of pissed about Killer 7 though........

[DJBoy416]

I`m in full agreement with much of what was said here.

I read some of Mr.Thompson`s responses to the various people who have e-mailed him.To say my jaw dropped would be an understatement.
I thought the guy was nothing more than yet another ambulence-chasing lawyer.But his words,and some of the info I`ve found on him show him to be something else..

He is a manipulative,cold-hearted scumbag.It is clearly obvious he cares nothing about kids.All he cares about is the money,the fame,and how many lives he can ruin.

It also came off to me that he`s also a certifiable lunatic.Honestly,some of the articles I read showed him to be a man totally out of control.It wouldn`t shock me if he`s secretly a member of a "purple kool-aid"cult of some kind.

Some people here(wrestling fans in particular)might remember the saga of the WWE Vs.The Parents Television Council.The PTC was a group of people who would resort to any dirty tactics possible to show the WWE was an evil corporation hell-bent on destroying our youth,when nothing could be farther from the truth.Well.Vince McMahon had enough of the PTC`s slander,and took them to court.The case was settled out of court before it went to trial,and the PTC had to retract everything they said(i.e.basically admit they lied their ass off).

Mick Foley,a former wrestler and writer,wrote a 50-page chapter on the PTC is his book"Foley is Good".Even if you`re not a wrestling fan,you owe it to yourself to read it just for that chapter.Everything he talks about in that chapter has a eerily similar feel to what`s going on with Ol`Jack.

In the book,Foley compares the antics of the PTC to the antics of Senator Joe McCarthy(not surprising,as PTC head L.Brent Bozell`s father was a speechwriter for the senator).I believe we can compare the despicable,disgusting acts of Mr.Thompson to Mr.McCarthy`s,and anyone who has followed U.S.history and Mr.McCarthy in question knows what eventually happened to him.

"Those who do not learn from history,are doomed to repeat it"
Mr.Thompson obviously never heard those words,because somewhere,sometime,he will meet the same sad,pathetic fate as Joe McCarthy

[Leo_A]

"Like it or not we, the gaming community, are at WAR! They've already fired the first salvo, now what are we going to do about it?"

What should we do about it? Let them have a AO rating.

You guys act like Pearl Harbor just happened all over again.

They're just videogames people.

[evildead2099]

DJBoy416: Thanks for the reference to Foley Is Good. I've read Mick Foley's first book, but not the one you mentioned. I'll have to check it out on account of the chapter you mentioned.


Mr.Thompson obviously never heard those words,because somewhere,sometime,he will meet the same sad,pathetic fate as Joe McCarthy

Believe it or not, though, there are still apologists who approve of McCarthyism.


"Like it or not we, the gaming community, are at WAR! They've already fired the first salvo, now what are we going to do about it?"

What should we do about it? Let them have a AO rating.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think that there are too many of us who feel - much less have said - that GTA:SA should not receive an AO rating. In case you haven't been paying attention, the problem is not that games are rated according to their content but rather the fact that retail stores, by and large, are not willing to carry any AO games in spite of how well they're expected to sell. There's no sense in having an AO rating if no one is willing to support it, just as the NC-17 rating is basically an obsolete rating in film entertainment due to similar circumstances.


You guys act like Pearl Harbor just happened all over again.

They're just videogames people.

Yes, and the quality of the videogames that we love have already been affected for the worse (See example pertaining to The Punisher).

[Kamino]

This really frigging sucks. I am VERY sick of religious right wing scumbags overrunning our government and trying to instill their "Morals" as dictated by their "God" into everyone....
More cannon fodder for my theory that religion does way more harm than good today.
ARGH.
Anywhoo, back on topic, It might do better good to write letters to game companies, asking them to continue to make games that shall recieve the AO rating, stating we will back them up by buying the games from the outlets that will carry them. Arguing with Jesus Thompson isn't going to do a damn bit of good.

[Push Upstairs]

Has anyone thought to write/e-mail Hillary Clinton and ask her why shes supporting a guy that insults voters & the children of voters?

Didn't this guy say something like "most gamers are stoners, and self centered"?

If this jerk is so "for the kids" then why does he feel the need to insult those he is trying to "help"?

[Dji]

I couldn't care less if a game receives an M or AO rating.

[bargora]

I couldn't care less if a game receives an M or AO rating.
You forgot to explain why that is.

(I am impressed, however, by your proper usage of "couldn't care less". Many of my countrymen couldn't care less about grammar or spelling.)

[Imstarryeyed]

I have read all of the comments on this thread and wanted to bring up one more point.

Shouldn't people also make requests of Wal-Mart and other companies that would not sell an AO game and get them to change their minds?

Customer requests go a long way at retail and the more customers request items be it a class of videogame, a special menu item or whatever, the more the company will take it into consideration.

I think part of the "war" going on here also has to be fought on the grounds of retailers who are also making a political stand as well by not carrying certain products for whatever reason.

I am not for censorship in anyway on art whether I agree or like it or not, but I do defend that just because I like something and others do not or vice versa, people have the right to choose.

Parents are the responsible parties here, unfortunately in a world where parents can be duped by their own children into thinking an M rating means Mild, we have a significant problem. Parents like to blame TV and video games on their kids when they themselves use TV and Video games as babysitters and do not properly engage in their own children's lives.

I don't think these crusades that political officials make on the issue of the day will ever change, however we the gaming public must also take a stand and make our voices known to our retailers and demand that we get the games we want.

I really believe that the more people that demand merchandise from a retailer the more the retailer has to consider and reconsider the choices they have made.

As a friend of mine who works in the hospitality industry said to me, "Fill out those comment cards, we really read them and count how many people are asking for new and different products and services we do not offer."

When I go to EBGames, GameStop, Wal-Mart, Media Play and other places I make sure to interface with a manager and express my interest that they carry and continue to carry all sorts of games including the newly rated AO GTA.

There are lots of good comments on this thread and I wanted to add my take on it as well, part of the reason I read this board everyday is that people here often act much more adult than many do on other boards.

[njiska]

First off, it's tuesday, where's Jack's Big announcement? I haven't seen anything reported yet and he made it quite clear that it was this Tuesday. Maybe his big statement was related to Killer 7 and he called of the dogs after reading IGN's clarifying statement. Or maybe he was just full of shit. Either way it looks like Ol' Jack was shooting blanks.


I have read all of the comments on this thread and wanted to bring up one more point.

Shouldn't people also make requests of Wal-Mart and other companies that would not sell an AO game and get them to change their minds?

Customer requests go a long way at retail and the more customers request items be it a class of videogame, a special menu item or whatever, the more the company will take it into consideration.

With a normal company i would agree, but Wal-Mart isn't normal. At one point they were considering not carying magazines like Maxim and FHM because they were to racy. I don't know if they ever did drop them or not though.

However I don't think it could hurt to try. If i were you i'd do it.

[Gamereviewgod]

First off, it's tuesday, where's Jack's Big announcement? I haven't seen anything reported yet and he made it quite clear that it was this Tuesday

He was on Court TV and announced he's suing the game makers and stores over the Ohio Sniper incidents because they made him do it. Malvo used GTA to practice.

Common sense would say go after the gun manufacturers and bullet maker too if he's going to sue everybody, but hey, this is Thompson.

[njiska]

First off, it's tuesday, where's Jack's Big announcement? I haven't seen anything reported yet and he made it quite clear that it was this Tuesday

He was on Court TV and announced he's suing the game makers and stores over the Ohio Sniper incidents because they made him do it. Malvo used GTA to practice.

Common sense would say go after the gun manufacturers and bullet maker too if he's going to sue everybody, but hey, this is Thompson.

What the fuck? Is this guy on acid? Oh well this is actually good news. See now everything he says and does is in regards to an actual case (assuming it doesn't just get thrown out of court that is). This means he's now under the watch of the Florida Bar Association, that means any racist-esque statements he makes about gamer can be used to dis-bar him.

But my friends this is also further proof that we need to0 mobilize against him. We must unite and bring this guy down. Hew has made a mockery of our passion, insulted each and every one of us and now he's suing the developers and the game stores. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!

[Push Upstairs]

Well Jack seems to be full of hot air.


When I did a speech on video game violence I found a quote from the President of some club/association that shoots sniper rifles for shits and giggles...and he said there is no way a video game could teach you how to shoot a sniper rifle.

Even i know that games don't render wind, bullet dropping over distance...and a bunch of other factors that i am sure i have no idea about.

[esquire]

When the goverment steps in to tell you what you can and can't do, especially a radically conservative goverment, only bad things will happen. Letting them regulate what content is sutable for what audience is very dangerous because it will lead to censorship.

1. Please tell me what branch of the government the ESRB belongs too? For more infpormation try the ESRB's website here (http://www.esrb.org/).


The Entertainment Software Rating Board (ESRB) is a self-regulatory body for the interactive entertainment software industry established in 1994 by the Entertainment Software Association (ESA), formerly the Interactive Digital Software Association (IDSA). ESRB independently applies and enforces ratings, advertising guidelines, and online privacy principles adopted by the computer and video game industry.

2. Even if the ESRB was run by this so called "radically conservative governemwnt", and in case you haven't noticed, all speech is not protected under the 1st Amendment.

Frankly, I am getting tired of the uninformed on BOTH sides of this argument.

[njiska]

When the goverment steps in to tell you what you can and can't do, especially a radically conservative goverment, only bad things will happen. Letting them regulate what content is sutable for what audience is very dangerous because it will lead to censorship.

1. Please tell me what branch of the government the ESRB belongs too? For more infpormation try the ESRB's website here (http://www.esrb.org/).


The Entertainment Software Rating Board (ESRB) is a self-regulatory body for the interactive entertainment software industry established in 1994 by the Entertainment Software Association (ESA), formerly the Interactive Digital Software Association (IDSA). ESRB independently applies and enforces ratings, advertising guidelines, and online privacy principles adopted by the computer and video game industry.

2. Even if the ESRB was run by this so called "radically conservative governemwnt", and in case you haven't noticed, all speech is not protected under the 1st Amendment.

Frankly, I am getting tired of the uninformed on BOTH sides of this argument.

Hey let's look at what you didn't quote shall we?


By no means am I implying that we should be giving adult games to children. The ratings system is in place for a reason and up till now no one has critized it at this level. Even Sen. Joe Lieberman has endorsed it. Movies, Music and Comics are not federally regulated in the US so why should games be? They asked us to police ourselves and we're doing just that.

When the goverment steps in to tell you what you can and can't do, especially a radically conservative goverment, only bad things will happen. Letting them regulate what content is sutable for what audience is very dangerous because it will lead to censorship. Games with intense stories will become rarer because they'll be reduced to only being sold in small shops. This will cripple the profitability of the industry and lead them to cut back on the edgy stuff in favor of more family friendly content. I'm not saying a game should be sold on violence or sex, but those are both tools used to create deep and complelling stories. Killer 7 uses both marvelopusly, but according to Jack it's fit only for porn houses.

Now where in there did i claim that the ESRB was a goverment organization? If your read my posts you'll notice that i never called the ESRB a goverment body. What i was expressing was my fear that the goverment would step in and take the ESRB's place. Which is exactly what Jack is calling for. Although i will admit that my wording could've been better.

You speak about people being uninformed but since you quoted the very first post on a 107+ post thread and completely ignored the paragraph above the one you quoted that put everything in proper context perhaps it is you that is uninformed.

To make things perfectly clear, here's a post of mine off of page 4 that highlights my point:


It's really nice to see so many of you joining into the disscussion but i think we need to take a moment and clarify a few things.

1. AO does not compare to a Parental advisory in meaning or worth. The only direct comparision you can make is AO = NC-17 if you're an american, R if you're a Canadian (using the Canadian home video rating system) and 18 if you're from the UK.

2. The AO rating is seen as a death nail by the industry. AO means you're not going to be carried in a lot of mainstream stores and like it or not it's those mainstream stores (Wal-mart, Best Buy, Circut City, Futureshop, ETC.) that keep the industry alive. If a game receives and AO then it will be cut down to receive an M just like a movie would be. The Best example of this occuring would be THQ's The Punisher. It was originally rated AO by the ESRB and was subsequently altered to receive an M. The censorship in The Punisher ruined the one thing the game had going for it, the interogations. Instead of witnessing a bloody finish (more then justified in The Punisher universe) the camera would pan away and everything would go black and white. It ruined it. As a person who has hacked the game to reveal the original scenes, I can tell you it's much better with out the censorship.

3. We are not trying to say that M rated games should be given to people who are under 17. The rating exisits for a reason and we wish to uphold it. This is about 3 things: Censorship, Quality and preventing the goverment from becoming involved in the rating process. The ESRB is the most detailed and advanced rating system in the world, we shouldn't let it be bad mouthed and destroyed. Even if a law is passed that says only people over 17 can buy M rated games, it doesn't matter if the rules for deciding AO vs. M have changed.

4. The reason we are focusing on Jack Thompson is because A: He openly insults us because of our interests and refuses to listen to our side, and B: Jack is questioning the value of the ESRB and desires to bring it down, most likely replacing it with a goverment ratings body. Do you really want to let that happen?

5. If you're going to post here great, we'd all love to hear your side. Whatever it maybe, but please read all the posts before you add your 2 cents, this will help prevent a lot of people repeating the same arguements we already had hours or even days ago.

6. If you feel like e-mailing Jack please do, but be the bigger man. Don't resort to cheap insults like he does. Don't threaten him or imply that you wish harm to come to him in anyway. This is partly to keep us from sounding like a bunch of idiots, but it's also to protect you. Jack's a lawyer don't think for a second that he wouldn't try to use the law against you for something you said that he has a hard copy of.

7. If you receive any replys from Jack please forward the e-mail to me, especially if they're offensive. diskoboy and i are trying to gather as many as we can. Even if they aren't something we can directly use against him they do paint an ugly picture. All personal information will be kept private and this is completely voluntary. If you don't wish to share you're conversations with Jack with us, we fully understand and will not ask you for it.

8. If anyone knows something we can do to hurt Jack (credibility or profession wise, not physically) please voice your idea.

9. Anyone in Ohio if you can figure out where Jack is gonna be making his announcement tomorrow I implore you to gather your friends and protest him. It will show them that we care.

10. Keep on, keepin' on.

Sorry for the long quote but i wanted to drive my point home.

[DJBoy416]

First off, it's tuesday, where's Jack's Big announcement? I haven't seen anything reported yet and he made it quite clear that it was this Tuesday

He was on Court TV and announced he's suing the game makers and stores over the Ohio Sniper incidents because they made him do it. Malvo used GTA to practice.

Common sense would say go after the gun manufacturers and bullet maker too if he's going to sue everybody, but hey, this is Thompson.
Ten bucks says he`ll either lose the case or it will be thrown out of court before it even goes to trial,just like all his other lawsuits.
You`d think he`d be bankrupt by now,considering he`s tossing thousands and thousands of dollars into the trash,fighting such a meaningless battle

[Dji]

You forgot to explain why that is.

(I am impressed, however, by your proper usage of "couldn't care less". Many of my countrymen couldn't care less about grammar or spelling.)

Well, thanks. LOL I suppose you're talking about how some people would use "could" instead of "couldn't"...

Yes, perhaps I should have been more explicit. First of all, I'm 21, so I could buy any game I want regardless of rating. Sure, some might not be available everywhere (I don't go to Wal-Mart anyway, those union-crushing fiends), but there would always be a way to get the games I want (specialty stores, online). Some argue that ultra-violent games would not be made at all if they couldn't have mainstream exposure. I don't think that's what would happen at all. Worst case scenario, there'll be an "adults only" section at your local EB Games, just like there is in every single video store... except it'll be for video games. Secondly, perhaps more games should be rated AO, as I feel awkward knowing that children play GTA, Manhunt, and other such games. However, that might be hypocritical, since I was ripping heads off in Mortal Kombat when I was ten years old, and I haven't become a deranged, psycho killer (yet). I just think most of us overreact when it comes to this. Really, what's the big deal? Soccer moms have been against video games in what seems like forever, and their meaningless rants have always amounted to nothing. What happened to Doom and MK? If anything, the publicity helped those games sell even more copies. Same goes for GTA nowadays. I'll tell you what we can do about this whole situation: ignore it.

For the record, I do think Jack Thompson is one of those vulture-like, heartless, uninformed, pathetic lawyers. But acknowledging him only fuels the fire. Ignore him, and he will remain powerless.

[smokehouse]

When I did a speech on video game violence I found a quote from the President of some club/association that shoots sniper rifles for shits and giggles...and he said there is no way a video game could teach you how to shoot a sniper rifle.


Yep. I myself am a sport shooter and have been for many years. I do things like practical shooting (ISPC), fixed target shooting, tactical shooting and long range fixed site and scope shooting. I was in the military and received and Expert rating in BRM (not that that’s a big honor but I did get it). Needless to say I’m a fan of guns and target shooting.

With that aside, let me say that I have never played a video game that can train someone to effectively shoot or long range shoot a person. Simply put, it’s not the same. Games like Halo do not prepare you for what it is really like to shoot a scoped rifle. Sure, it will give you a better idea than a complete novice but it will not give you the skills it takes to be a sniper. As for tactical style shooting, there is simply no way a video game could effectively train someone to do it. Finally, there a re major physiological events that happen in a fight or flight situation where you are actually drawing a weapon and pointing it at someone with the intent to kill. Thank do I have never had to do this. Even with many, many years of training I would have serious issues with killing someone with the very handguns I’ve used for years. Some video game player would much more trouble.

Man, do I find the video game training garbage annoying.

[Gamereviewgod]

Someone has beat us to it!!!!

www.stopstopkill.com

[Gamereviewgod]

Someone has beat us to it!!!!

www.stopstopkill.com

[Promophile]

Don't expect anything to change for another 20-30 years until the current dinosaurs die and we get some youthful blood in power.

[Promophile]

Don't expect anything to change for another 20-30 years until the current dinosaurs die and we get some youthful blood in power.

[njiska]

Someone has beat us to it!!!!

www.stopstopkill.com

Nah we can do something better. Bigger, stronger, faster, ah hell i'm too lazy for that, lets just support these guys. They've pretty much got the same idea as us.

[njiska]

Someone has beat us to it!!!!

www.stopstopkill.com

Nah we can do something better. Bigger, stronger, faster, ah hell i'm too lazy for that, lets just support these guys. They've pretty much got the same idea as us.