Enough is enough and it's time to take a stand! (No Joke)

[njiska]

Look for weeks we've been discussing what the controversy surrounding the games industry.

First it was GTA:SA's Hot Coffee mod. That situation ended quite easily with the game being re-rated AO. Some of you feel it was right, others wrong and still more of you think that it's not AO content, but Rockstar needed to be punished for it's carelessness.

Then some of us thought everything was over, but then, just as I and many other's predicted, it snowballed.

Since the end of Hot Coffee, several other games have come under fire: Bully, The Sims 2, God of War and Killer 7 all apparently deserve AO rating. (Breaking windows has a nice article on it here (http://www.breakingwindows.com/new/2005/08/the_week_in_vid.php#more).)

In addition to Jack's numerous claims, there is also the FTC investigation of Take-Two and a many pieces of legislation being put on the table to police gaming.

Like it or not we, the gaming community, are at WAR! They've already fired the first salvo, now what are we going to do about it?

By no means am I implying that we should be giving adult games to children. The ratings system is in place for a reason and up till now no one has critized it at this level. Even Sen. Joe Lieberman has endorsed it. Movies, Music and Comics are not federally regulated in the US so why should games be? They asked us to police ourselves and we're doing just that.

When the goverment steps in to tell you what you can and can't do, especially a radically conservative goverment, only bad things will happen. Letting them regulate what content is sutable for what audience is very dangerous because it will lead to censorship. Games with intense stories will become rarer because they'll be reduced to only being sold in small shops. This will cripple the profitability of the industry and lead them to cut back on the edgy stuff in favor of more family friendly content. I'm not saying a game should be sold on violence or sex, but those are both tools used to create deep and complelling stories. Killer 7 uses both marvelopusly, but according to Jack it's fit only for porn houses.

What's more Jack now claims he is getting death threats and that will only back up his side of the arguement. We must be able to counteract those claims. We must show them that's gamers aren't killers, pedophiles, sex addicts, but rather that we are just normal people like everyone else.

This is a threat to what we hold most dear and we must, as a community decide on what to do about it.

Some may push this off as un-due panic, others may just not care. But this is a very serious issue. Their side has hundereds of groups, several senators and Jack Thompsons rallying support. What do we have? The ESA that's it and they can't fight this battle alone. We must make our voices heard. We must do something because we can no longer sit on the side lines. We are the consumers, we are the people who play games. We are mothers, fathers, sons and daughters. We are families. We are a global community. We all share one passion, gaming, but it's a passion that has come under attack.

They get all the TV and news coverage they want to promote their side, we have nothing. The time has come to rise up against the coming wave of oppression and strike back.

Even if you don't live in the US what affects the industry there, will affect you.

What can we do to stop this chaos? Posting on forums certainly isn't it. We've got to take the battle to them. Now who's ready to stand up and be counted? Who's ready to help defend the industry?

I'd really like to hear from some of DP's more seinor members and what anyone here who's in the industry has to say. What are we going to do?

[Leroy]

Opression?! LOL ROFL LOL ROFL LOL

[Cmtz]

Adults can still buy the games. So what's the problem? Their only censoring minors. Go big deal.

[Gamereviewgod]

We need to know how we're going to do this. Spouting off e-mails back and forth to him with his childish replies isn't doing much good.

We're the ones that need to be on 60 minutes. We're the ones that need to have screen time. We don't and the media obviously doesn't want us to. That's the biggest issue.

[njiska]

Adults can still buy the games. So what's the problem? Their only censoring minors. Go big deal.

Hey yes adult's can still buy the games. But if the games are rated AO and thus unable to be sold in big chains like walmart companies are less likely to produce them. Things like killer 7 will fade away. That's the really problem.

Why does everyone want to turn a blind eye to this?

[Gamereviewgod]

It's a much bigger issue than just being able to buy games. I have no problem with the AO rating. Stores won't carry them though. They don't want the backlash, yet they carry unrated films.

They're being attacked, on a daily basis, and the way we and the games themselves are being portrayed is absurd. It seems like slander to me.

[njiska]

We need to know how we're going to do this. Spouting off e-mails back and forth to him with his childish replies isn't doing much good.

We're the ones that need to be on 60 minutes. We're the ones that need to have screen time. We don't and the media obviously doesn't want us to. That's the biggest issue.

My question exactly. The will is there, but we have no organization or face that could get the tv time. The best thing i can think of right now is that gamers in Ohio gather together tuesday and protest Jack's big speech about something that's far worse then hot coffee.

[smokehouse]

The problem is that anything you guys say is going to fall on deaf ears. I am a free gaming advocate and fully support artistic integrity be it something I agree with or not. Personally I don’t like the GTA titles, I find their ridiculous levels of violence to be over the top and intentional. They’ve done this to get sales and nothing else. The “hot coffee” trick in completely ridiculous and intentional on their part.

They have brought this on themselves this time.

Then, you get idiots who write threatening emails. We are in the minority my friends, for every one of us there are 100 people who disagree with us. I have faced this time and time and time again with my supporting the right to own firearms. Every 60 Minuets episode, every write-up in Time magazine and every senator speaking out against guns far outweighs what I can say. Just when things simmer down, some ass hole goes crazy in a public place with a SKS and kills a bunch of hunters. The fire is once again an uncontrollable blaze. You want to blame somebody? Blame Rockstar games for making blatantly violent and sexual games simply to get sales. They once again dumped gasoline on the fire with their useless bullshit. Violence and video games go hand in hand and I am not saying we should white wash the industry. What I am saying is that over the top garbage like GTA is causing the problems.

[Queen Of The Felines]

But should we really blame Rockstar or all the people who kept saying how cool the GTA series is and buy a zillion copies on release day? They're only giving what the public wants, unfortunately.

Kristine

[Lord Contaminous]

My way of fighting this American gaming nonssense....

Turn to Japan for my gaming needs where it's more civilized.

I haven't walked into a EB or Gamestop in a long time because I can't have a fruitful game conversation with someone because all they play is GTA.

[smork]

Back in the 80's Tipper Gore and the PMRC had all these congressional hearings regarding the violent and sexual content in music. Several bands were blamed for violent behavior and I believe it was Black Sabbath who was actually sued in Arizona for supposedly driving a teenager to suicide. The music industry responded by putting the "explicit lyrics" advisories on 'potty mouthed' CDs. Some retailers, most notably Wal-Mart, refused (and continue to refuse) to carry such labeled CDs. The artists cried out "censorship!" "cultural war!" and worried about lost revenues and the inability to sell records (not an invalid concern -- pre-internet, Wal-Mart was the only way for most people to buy music in small town USA).

Fast forward 20 years. Nobody really cares about the advisory stickers. They haven't cut into sales (other factors have according to the labels). If I want to buy a CD with 'explicit lyrics', I go to one of the many stores that carry them, or the net. As a consumer, I still have a very high level of choice.

I think this compares directly to the current videogames controversy. Nobody's going to have a hard time buying God of War, Killer 7, and such. They are not going to be illegal, except in some small town in middle america that wants to make headlines for banning a game (community standards applies - they certainly have the right to do so, just like with alcohol or porn). If there is money to be made, a retailer will carry games with more explicit content. There's no war. Nobody's going to say "Don't make these games." Well, they will, but nobody with any power to stop companies from making games with violent content will say no - congress is not going to 'ruin' a multibillion dollar industry. (Although, some games have been banned in some countries, like Mercenaries was in South Korea)

What is going to happen? The mostly likely thing is alot of talking, then nothing. "Family" groups boycotted Disney for YEARS for their progressive stance on employing homosexuals -- to absolutely no effect. At the worst the publishers will be held more accountable for correctly labeling their content, and retailers will be legally obligated to check ID on M and AO games. Is that a bad thing at all? If a parent wants to buy God of War for his or her kid, they still will be able to -- if not at GS or Best Buy, then at Amazon or any number of online retailers.

Nobody's going into our homes to take our games, and nobody's going to stop making games with adult content.

[njiska]

At the worst the publishers will be held more accountable for correctly labeling their content, and retailers will be legally obligated to check ID on M and AO games. Is that a bad thing at all?

No in fact i have no problem with that. My only concern is if the goverment decides that they will be the regulating body, which they've been threatening for years.

And by the way to a store a Parental Advisory implies R-rated content. A fairer comparision would be NC-17 to AO. And right now NC-17 is seen as a death stamp because retailers like Wal-mart will not carry it. There's a huge difference between Ao and something having a Parental Advisory.

Honestly i feel education is the answer over federal regulation.

[njiska]

Mr. Thompson,

I would like you to answer just one simple question.

Have you actually witnessed the explicit sex scene you are accusing Killer 7 of containing and if so could you offer a breif description of it for verification. I myself have actually played Killer 7 and i know the scene in question. To me it's no worse then the content in an R-rated film (ages 17 and up) and since it's non-interactive i feel it is a moment that should be treated the same as a scene in a movie.

I do not wish to have and arguement with you, i merely wish to know if you have actually seen the scene in question.

Thank you.

- Jason


I know e-mailing him is a lost cause but i'm really interested in hearing his answer.

God i hope i don't get spammed.

[Flack]

Several bands were blamed for violent behavior and I believe it was Black Sabbath who was actually sued in Arizona for supposedly driving a teenager to suicide.

Actually it was Judas Priest's Stained Class album. It was two teenagers who killed themselves, minors who were drinking and smoking pot at the time. Obviously, it was the music's fault.

[njiska]

Actually it was Judas Priest's Stained Class album. It was two teenagers who killed themselves, minors who were drinking and smoking pot at the time. Obviously, it was the music's fault.

Clearly. LOL

[pragmatic insanester]

the ao rating is a much stiffer restraint on the consumer than the ole' parental advistory. i've never been dissuaded to purchase a PA'd music cd, or even rent violent movies. its one thing to edit or remove titles from large omni-markets like walmart, which isn't supposed to be a cd-exclusive shop. places like eb only sell games (and action figures, who cares), and a pariah genre like ao cripples the normal and legit gamer audience.

[smork]

Several bands were blamed for violent behavior and I believe it was Black Sabbath who was actually sued in Arizona for supposedly driving a teenager to suicide.

Actually it was Judas Priest's Stained Class album. It was two teenagers who killed themselves, minors who were drinking and smoking pot at the time. Obviously, it was the music's fault.

Ah yeah, that was it. I couldn't be bothered to google it, even though Sabbath didn't sound right. I'm sure someone would try to sue Ozzy as well.

It's ridiculous to think Judas Priest could drive someone to suicide. I mean, have they SEEN Rob Halford? LOL

[njiska]

Jesus said, "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye
your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn
again and rend you."
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jason Westhaver" <njiska420@hotmail.com>
To: <jackpeace@comcast.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 3:26 PM
Subject: Content in Killer 7


> Mr. Thompson,
>
> I would like you to answer just one simple question.
>
> Have you actually witnessed the explicit sex scene you are accusing Killer
7
> of containing and if so could you offer a breif description of it for
> verification. I myself have actually played Killer 7 and i know the scene
> in question. To me it's no worse then the content in an R-rated film (ages
> 17 and up) and since it's non-interactive i feel it is a moment that
should
> be treated the same as a scene in a movie.
>
> I do not wish to have and arguement with you, i merely wish to know if you
> have actually seen the scene in question.
>
> Thank you.
>
> - Jason
>
>


Again i know this is fedual but how should i respond to that? Politelly or sarcastically just like he is?

[Gamereviewgod]

I got that same e-mail, same biblical message. What an idiot.

[njiska]

I got that same e-mail, same biblical message. What an idiot.

So what should i do? Be the bigger man and reply with a polite tone and explain the scene to him since he obviously doesn't know, or sink to his level? i'm thinking the polite tackful approach will piss him off more.

[jajaja]

Wasnt this game 17+ before and now its 18+ ? Only 1 year, no big deal :)

[smokehouse]

Njiska, my friend you are talking to a brick wall. I have a deeply religious mother and have found that any such attempts to straight talk about religion to her is completely useless. I’d be willing to say that anything you reply with will be answered with the same nonsense, biblical quoting. Ever try arguing with a 3 year old? You’re doing it right now; this guy will never give you a square answer.

[njiska]

Njiska, my friend you are talking to a brick wall. I have a deeply religious mother and have found that any such attempts to straight talk about religion to her is completely useless. I’d be willing to say that anything you reply with will be answered with the same nonsense, biblical quoting. Ever try arguing with a 3 year old? You’re doing it right now; this guy will never give you a square answer.

I know what it's like to argue with a religous person. I'm an atheist I do it all the time. But this isn't about religion. His biblical quote was an apt response. A poetic way of saying no comment. Hell i'll give him credit for that.

I know it's like talking to a brick wall, but hey it makes me feel better, and if i'm the bigger man and don't resoprt to pissy insults i may actually piss him off and i know i'll sleep better at night if i do. I want to do more to help the cause, but i can't where i am so all i can do is waste me free time trying to get him to slip up and admit his fault. i know he most likely won't but hey i've got nothing better to do.

[SoulBlazer]

Wow, THAT was the response you got back?

What the hell does that MEAN? :hmm:

And I actually have'nt played Killer 7 -- do you mind explaining the scene a little for those of us who have not, if it does'nt spoil anything in a big way?

I'd personaly respond with something along the lines off 'last time I checked, there's seperation of church and state in this country. Now how about actually ANSWERING my question, or are you afraid to because you realize you don't have a leg to stand on?'

Yes, I'm a direct person. :P

[evil_genius]

To be frank I don't give a shit. I can buy the games that I want to play. As long as companies keep making games the way the want and this shit doesn't effect good games from coming out. I don;t care what that guy says to let his name be known.

[Cryomancer]

The problem is, if walmart, eb, gamespot, ect don't stock AO games, who will? CD stores? Bigass electronic/furniture stores, hidden under something? If they can't be SOLD anywhere major, they won't be made.

[njiska]

Wow, THAT was the response you got back?

What the hell does that MEAN? :hmm:

It means i'm not going to tell you because because yu're gonna tear it apart and use it against me.



And I actually have'nt played Killer 7 -- do you mind explaining the scene a little for those of us who have not, if it does'nt spoil anything in a big way?

Here's the description i'm gonna send him.

You walk into a room. You see a girl, from the shoulders up moaning and gyrating. More moaning (orgasm), then she stop's gets up (FULLY CLOTHED, wearing a sleveless shirt w/tie and a plaid skirt) and then she hit's the man she was with and says he likes in rough. Then she asks the Player character if he wants some to in a joking fashion. (However you can't accept and there is no way to interact what so ever).

See nothing wrong with that. Hell the Kids in the Hall chicken lady was worse.


I'd personaly respond with something along the lines off 'last time I checked, there's seperation of church and state in this country. Now how about actually ANSWERING my question, or are you afraid to because you realize you don't have a leg to stand on?'

Yes, I'm a direct person. :P

Hey nobody's blunter then me. But the church state thing has nothing to do with it. Quoting scripture is something lawyers often do. Beleive me i will be direct, but i will do so in a civil manner. I will be everything he thinks we aren't. Polite and not petty.

By the way doesn anyone else think the way Jack Thompson responds to critizism is similar to how fanboys on those other forums act?

[njiska]

To be frank I don't give a shit. I can buy the games that I want to play. As long as companies keep making games the way the want and this shit doesn't effect good games from coming out. I don;t care what that guy says to let his name be known.

It's amazing how many people just don't get it. IF GAMES THAT YOU LIKE NOW START GETTING AO THEN COMPANIES WILL STOP MAKING GAMES LIKE THAT BECAUSE AO IS AN UNPROFITABLE RATING. SALES DROP DRAMATICALLY WHEN THE GAMES ARE HARDER TO GET TO DEVELOPERS WON'T BOTHER.

[Famidrive-16]

Things like killer 7 will fade away. That's the really problem.


K7 might actually gain a bunch of publicity and popularity because of this. And just because Wal-Mart won't carry it doesn't mean other stores won't.

In a music sense mentioned earlier, this reminds me of that old Dead Kennedys vs. Gore case. First DK is claimed for selling an obscene album cover picture of the Frankenchrist album (Giger's Penis Landscape) then it escalated to focusing on the whole album and it's material when the court date came around. Most people found the whole case ridiculous and it was dropped on no trial. Reminds me kind of how this whole situation got started; with a small code-breaking, escalating out to full investigations on several other games.

Trtuh is, I don't have much of a full-blown opinion on this, and I'm only 17 (18 in two weeks) so I don't want to push myself too much into the "BUT IT ISN'T FOR KIDS!!! @_@ " arguement. Thompson's a bit silly on some of the claims though, even if Rockstar should've removed the code in the frist place.

[Wavelflack]

Adults can still buy the games. So what's the problem? Their only censoring minors. Go big deal.

Hey yes adult's can still buy the games. But if the games are rated AO and thus unable to be sold in big chains like walmart companies are less likely to produce them. Things like killer 7 will fade away. That's the really problem.

Why does everyone want to turn a blind eye to this?

If a game has quality, as well as an AO rating, then it shouldn't matter whether or not "big chains" will carry it. You guys are all for talking big about the "purity" and artistic integrity that is being "threatened"...why not put your money where your mouth is? Support those games. Buy them. Have your friends buy them.

It seems to me that this will force game makers to make a conscious decision about the necessity of "mature content" in their games. If it's in the service of a fantastic game, then the game studio can keep it in, relying on the overall quality of their game to make up for "uninformed sales" lost from big chains. GTA would still sell zillions of copies even if it wasn't available at Wal Mart. The hungry consumer will find a way.

I would imagine that many game makers will simply look at their planned levels of sex and violence for Game X, and see it for what it really is: gratuitous and unnecessary. If they feel otherwise, they are not being prevented from creating their game, only limited in their distribution prospects for large chains such as Wal Mart. If their "artistic integrity" demands that the content be left unchanged, then that is their choice to make.

This is not the first time, nor will it be the last, that artists have had to make the choice between their "pure art ideals" and the moneymaking side of their craft. "Art films" may be pure genius in their design and execution, but the mainstream audiences are not impressed or interested in such films, and as such, movie chains such as Dickinson or AMC are not going to waste the usage of a potentially moneymaking theater to show a film 20 people want to see. They will show Fantastic Four or Star Wars on that screen instead. If the filmmaker wants big distribution, he has to create a product that is not only worth it's "shelf space", but also will not generate negative press for the theater(s) hosting it. At this point, he may go back into the editing room and realize that showing a chain of dudes poking each other in the ass, or seven minutes of footage of a glacier (shot in black and white, of course) are not really serving the story's needs and are simply a pointless indulgence on the part of the filmmaker.

I deal with this dilemma all of the time. I'm a musician, and I get to choose between writing my own music in an intellectually satisfying manner, or (at the other end of the spectrum) playing other peoples' bland top 40 music. If I choose to play cover tunes of typical uninspired, musically vacant Radio Music, then I automatically have access to the biggest clubs and bars around. If I choose to write my own stuff, then I am automatically limited to the smaller clubs, and only certain ones at that. Now, I can write musically intricate and satisfying tunes that don't alienate the listener, and this means that my band does draw crowds. But I have to work for it. I can't write pure shit and expect people to go out of their way to find us. I have to make it worth their while to come out to the Small Club, instead of just reflexively visiting the Big Club.

I also don't expect the Big Club to host us just because "they should". At some point, when the buzz is big enough, or the music paradigm changes where "mainstream listeners" are interested in our stuff, the big clubs will ask us to play.

So I have the same choice as the game developers:
1."Sell out" and have access to the big venues.
2. "Stay true" and have to find smaller avenues.

My music is highly refined, and does not rely on gimmicks of any kind. This means that I can't remove unnecessary material.
However, if I were to play your typical mainstream garbage, and part of my stage act was to drink a quart of blood, masturbate onstage, or urinate/defecate, I would probably have to make the choice again: Is it really necessary?

[Wavelflack]

"You walk into a room. You see a girl, from the shoulders up moaning and gyrating. More moaning (orgasm), then she stop's gets up (FULLY CLOTHED, wearing a sleveless shirt w/tie and a plaid skirt) and then she hit's the man she was with and says he likes in rough. Then she asks the Player character if he wants some to in a joking fashion. (However you can't accept and there is no way to interact what so ever)."


And this is integral to the quality and gameplay of the game in what way?

[diskoboy]

Just out of curiousity... Has anyone tried to report him to the Bar? He is abusing his power as an attourney, and he is viollating our 1st amendment rights. He has insulted us and I think we should come up with a "let's get Jack Thomson out of our hair" fund.

I hate to say this, but this man brought it all on himself. I don't blame those people for writing what they did. The man just hates video games. For no reason. I still remember seeing this assface on CNN, a while back, trying to tell everyone that the Washington Sniper deal was to be blamed on video games. I vividly remember whoever was interviewing him was trying not to laugh. And he thought "God-mode" meant "sniper mode". Then he looks like an idiot when it's found out the DC sniper had nothing to do with a vg, whatsoever... Just some ex-army nutjob who liked hanging around with kids. Maybe it was The Sims that caused him to do it!! :D

Folks - he is going after the video game industry. THE WHOLE INDUSTRY!!! He has (literaly and figuratively) insulted us, each and every one of us, our intelligence, and what we hold dear to us. I'd say we hang this guy with his own words.

[Wavelflack]

He's "viollating" our 1st amendment rights? How so?

[FurinkanianFrood]

My way of fighting this American gaming nonssense....

Turn to Japan for my gaming needs where it's more civilized.

I haven't walked into a EB or Gamestop in a long time because I can't have a fruitful game conversation with someone because all they play is GTA.


More or less, yeah. Though junky sequels (Squeenix garbage et al) may sell like crazy in JP, at least it doesn't seem to hose actual games out of existence, at least not yet.

The mainstream in JP has bad taste too in a lot of ways. Popular culture is inherently married to idiotic aggregate behavior and thus on average mainstream content averages out to be worse than that which is made by real people for real people.

I take the little that is decent in pop culture and enjoy it, and just let the rest go to hell.

Same as it ever was.



same nonsense, biblical quoting


Not all in the bible is actually nonsense, religious folks simply pervert it into such. The Bible itself is an ok book by me.

How much of Christianity comes from Christ?

Those who deign themselves pious had better think about that for once.

As far as actual games are concerned, real gaming is being destroyed by shock value marketing and flash over gameplay anyway.

Gaming is 95% dead to begin with.

If anything, I welcome these morons to run amuck for just a couple years to hose all the companies that are making garbage that sells only based on GTA type filth.

I don't actually condone censorship, but sometimes you need another type of evil to fight evil.

If Rockstar should fall, then good riddance.

SCE has already committed suicide with the PS3 design.

The more factors that converge to bring about some manner of crash the better.

We need another crash. If the religious right wants to help, I'm not about to stop them.

Only Nintendo would survive. Yay! They are the only ones who have been making a profit, while Sony and M$ bleed money.

We live in a time of right-wingers run amuck. The more they do so, the more they will be crushed in elections when they force more Americans to wake up by scrwing up their lives.

The more they fuck things up, the closer the election that will see them put in their place. The unbalance they create is only priming the pendulum for a swing even further leftwards.

Things will correct themselves in the end.

[njiska]

"You walk into a room. You see a girl, from the shoulders up moaning and gyrating. More moaning (orgasm), then she stop's gets up (FULLY CLOTHED, wearing a sleveless shirt w/tie and a plaid skirt) and then she hit's the man she was with and says he likes in rough. Then she asks the Player character if he wants some to in a joking fashion. (However you can't accept and there is no way to interact what so ever)."


And this is integral to the quality and gameplay of the game in what way?

Yes it is. It help illustrate the kind of relationship Harmann Smith has with his caregiver Samantha. When you first meet her she's in a rush to get out of there and get to her classes. Other times you'll find her hitting him around because he's unresponsive or won't it. Harmann is pretty close to catatonic in those scene. This scene in particular helps demonstrate even further the type of person Samantha is as well as accent to overal absurdity of everything that's going on in the game. I wouldn't say it's gratuitous and it's damn well not explicit. Go see for yourself.

And yes WaveFlack i do care about artistic integrity. I do buy off the wall titles like Killer 7 and i do encourage them to be played by other people. But there's a giant difference between a game failing because it's not mainstream enough and a game failing because it's rating damns it to do so. Games cost a shit load of money to make these days, are you gonna invest $10 million into something you know will fail before hand knowing it'll die?

Would GTA have been as popular if almost no one could find a copy? No. GTA can survive being an AO title because it already has a huge following. But little gems like Killer 7 are barely making it as is.

I do not want to give up my adult content in my games. I am an adult and as such i have the right to enjoy such things and I don't mean just sex and violence, but everything else too. Killer 7 for example deals with many mature subjects. I want games that address the tough issues. I want the developers to the freedom to make a good game be it intended for children or intended for adults.

[njiska]

Just out of curiousity... Has anyone tried to report him to the Bar? He is abusing his power as an attourney, and he is viollating our 1st amendment rights. He has insulted us and I think we should come up with a "let's get Jack Thomson out of our hair" fund.

I hate to say this, but this man brought it all on himself. I don't blame those people for writing what they did. The man just hates video games. For no reason. I still remember seeing this assface on CNN, a while back, trying to tell everyone that the Washington Sniper deal was to be blamed on video games. I vividly remember whoever was interviewing him was trying not to laugh. And he thought "God-mode" meant "sniper mode". Then he looks like an idiot when it's found out the DC sniper had nothing to do with a vg, whatsoever... Just some ex-army nutjob who liked hanging around with kids. Maybe it was The Sims that caused him to do it!! :D

Folks - he is going after the video game industry. THE WHOLE INDUSTRY!!! He has (literaly and figuratively) insulted us, each and every one of us, our intelligence, and what we hold dear to us. I'd say we hang this guy with his own words.

We don't need a get jack out fund. We need an organization that will defend our side, now and for years to come. As i've mentioned before i'd do everything in my power to start such a grass roots group, if only i had the funding and support. We need a face to stand up against Jack and his supporters, because right now we have nothing.

And keep the hanging thoughts to yourself the don't help us only hinder us. Just read my post about Jack being a marked man and you'll understand why.

[diskoboy]

He's "viollating" our 1st amendment rights? How so?

"abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press"

Artwork (hence: GTA:SA, or any video game for that matter..) falls under this catagory. It could be considered either speech or press. Even though I think it would fall more under speech. It's hard to say since there weren't video games in 1776. Basically, any form of self-expression is what I'm trying to get at.

"the vast majority of gamers are stoners, so silly, so self-absorbed, so self-righteous, and so idiotic are their rants."
Jack Thompson's own words. Taken from: http://aelon.net/2005/07/jack-thompson-straw-man/

[njiska]

"the vast majority of gamers are stoners, so silly, so self-absorbed, so self-righteous, and so idiotic are their rants."
Jack Thompson's own words. Taken from: http://aelon.net/2005/07/jack-thompson-straw-man/

So how much more of Jack's insults do we have to put up with before we can start a class action lawsuit against him for harassment and libel? After all he has pulled several Stockwell's this year alone. LOL

[diskoboy]

Just out of curiousity... Has anyone tried to report him to the Bar? He is abusing his power as an attourney, and he is viollating our 1st amendment rights. He has insulted us and I think we should come up with a "let's get Jack Thomson out of our hair" fund.

I hate to say this, but this man brought it all on himself. I don't blame those people for writing what they did. The man just hates video games. For no reason. I still remember seeing this assface on CNN, a while back, trying to tell everyone that the Washington Sniper deal was to be blamed on video games. I vividly remember whoever was interviewing him was trying not to laugh. And he thought "God-mode" meant "sniper mode". Then he looks like an idiot when it's found out the DC sniper had nothing to do with a vg, whatsoever... Just some ex-army nutjob who liked hanging around with kids. Maybe it was The Sims that caused him to do it!! :D

Folks - he is going after the video game industry. THE WHOLE INDUSTRY!!! He has (literaly and figuratively) insulted us, each and every one of us, our intelligence, and what we hold dear to us. I'd say we hang this guy with his own words.

We don't need a get jack out fund. We need an organization that will defend our side, now and for years to come. As i've mentioned before i'd do everything in my power to start such a grass roots group, if only i had the funding and support. We need a face to stand up against Jack and his supporters, because right now we have nothing.

And keep the hanging thoughts to yourself the don't help us only hinder us. Just read my post about Jack being a marked man and you'll understand why.

Sorry, I just came from there. I meant it as a figure of speech. I IN NO WAY CONDONE VIOLENCE!! He sure is going to alot of websites and personally insulting us.

Just a small list of insults can be found @:
http://www.vgcats.com/jack.php
http://www.breakingwindows.com/new/2005/08/the_week_in_vid.php#more
http://www.actiontrip.com/rei/replies_news.phtml?id=072205_9&replyto=22
http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/q-a/jack-thompson-declines-to-speak-out-on-gaming-violence-025471.php

So I'm behind you 100%. And you HAVE already started a grass-roots effort. Wether you realize it or not.. You've callen on people to stand up against this S.O.B. :)

[diskoboy]

"the vast majority of gamers are stoners, so silly, so self-absorbed, so self-righteous, and so idiotic are their rants."
Jack Thompson's own words. Taken from: http://aelon.net/2005/07/jack-thompson-straw-man/

So how much more of Jack's insults do we have to put up with before we can start a class action lawsuit against him for harassment and libel? After all he has pulled several Stockwell's this year alone. LOL

No kidding!! Actually he could easily be sued for slander. Slander would be a sure-fire win. But the harassment would be harder to prove. Hence - Well hang him by his own words! :)

[Famidrive-16]

no, but thanks. i’m too busy destroying best buy and rockstar

He's too busy 8-)

[njiska]

So all your gonna give me is the run around huh? Well at least it was a very poetic although completely irrelevant run-around. However since you didn't answer a simple question that would've give credibility to your arguement one must assume that you have not seen the scene in question. This conclusion can be reached because A: if you had seen it you should be willing to admit it because it gives you credibility, and B: Because admitting you hadn't seen it would be a strong blow against you. Had you simply said no i actually would've been impressed. But instead you chose the same old lawyer tactics. You're a credit to your kind.

All you've done is proven to me that you don't really know what you are talking about, at least not in any real detail. You are simply are basing your claims on things you've heard. While i'll admit that the IGN review does support your claim there is such a thing as exageration. The PTC is a group that's quite skilled at it.

So since you have not seen the questionable content allow me to explain the scene to you.

Here's the scene:

You walk into a room. You see a girl, from the shoulders up moaning and gyrating. More moaning (orgasm), then she stop's gets up (FULLY CLOTHED, wearing a sleveless shirt w/tie and a plaid skirt) and then she hit's the man she was with and says he likes in rough. Then she asks the Player character if he wants some to in a joking fashion. (However you can't accept and there is no way to interact what so ever).

There is no nudity, there isn't even and visable contact between the two parties. In fact the most you see of the man in that scene is a breif glimpse of his had as the angle changes.

The scene helps illustrate the kind of relationship Harmann Smith has with his care-giver Samantha. When you first meet her she's in a rush to get out of there and get to her classes. Other times you'll find her hitting him around because he's unresponsive and she doesn't like it. Harmann is pretty close to catatonic in those scenes. This scene in particular helps demonstrate even further the type of person Samantha is as well as accent to overal absurdity of everything that's going on in the game. I wouldn't say it's gratuitous and it's damn well not explicit. Go see for yourself.

Killer 7 is clearly a game intended for adults, and it's rated M because of it. There is no content unsuitable for 17 years olds.

I await your reply. Maybe you'll give me a resonable answer instead of just ignoring me because of my hobby like you have done to so many other people who have written you.

- Jason




>From: "Jack Thompson" <jackpeace@comcast.net>
>To: "Jason Westhaver" <njiska420@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Content in Killer 7
>Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 15:59:46 -0400
>
>Jesus said, "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye
>your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn
>again and rend you."
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jason Westhaver" <njiska420@hotmail.com>
>To: <jackpeace@comcast.net>
>Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 3:26 PM
>Subject: Content in Killer 7
>
>
> > Mr. Thompson,
> >
> > I would like you to answer just one simple question.
> >
> > Have you actually witnessed the explicit sex scene you are accusing Killer
>7
> > of containing and if so could you offer a breif description of it for
> > verification. I myself have actually played Killer 7 and i know the scene
> > in question. To me it's no worse then the content in an R-rated film (ages
> > 17 and up) and since it's non-interactive i feel it is a moment that
>should
> > be treated the same as a scene in a movie.
> >
> > I do not wish to have and arguement with you, i merely wish to know if you
> > have actually seen the scene in question.
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> > - Jason
> >
> >
>
I tried to be polite, i tried to be civil, but all i got was the run around, albeit a very poetic and apt to your profession, run-around. However since you didn't answer a simple question that would've give credibility to your arguement one must assume that you have not seen the scene in question. This conclusion can be reached because A: if you had seen it you should be willing to admit it because it gives you credibility, and B: Because admitting you hadn't seen it would be a strong blow against you. Had you simply said no i actually would've been impressed. But instead you chose the same old lawyer tactics. You're a credit to your kind.

But you just go to prove my point that you don't really know what you are talking about, at least not in any real detail. You are simply are basing your claims on things you've heard. While i'll admit that the IGN review does support your claim there is such a thing as exageration. The PTC is a group that's quite good at this.

So since you have not seen the questionable content allowme to explain the scene to you.

Here's the scene:

You walk into a room. You see a girl, from the shoulder's up moaning and gyrating. More moaning, then she stop's gets up (FULLY CLOTHED) and then ask's the Player character if he wants some to in a joking fashion. (However you can't accept and there is no way to interact what so ever).

There is no nudity, there isn't even and visable contact between the two parties. In fact the most you see of the man in that scene is a breif glimpse of his had as the angle changes.

Killer 7 is clearly a game intended for adults, and it's rated M because of it. There is no content unsuitable for 17 years olds.

i await your insulting reply that some many of us have come to expect from you.



- Jason


Opps i left the first draft that was insulting in at the bottomm. let's hope he doesn't read it.

[XxMe2NiKxX]

What is his email? jackpeace@comcast.net? I'd like to give him a piece of my mind, I would.

[njiska]

What is his email? jackpeace@comcast.net? I'd like to give him a piece of my mind, I would.

That's it but for the love of every diety in history, DO NOT BE A JUVENILE ASS and do not threaten his life.

I'm all for sticking it to him. Just be careful not to give him more fodder.

[XxMe2NiKxX]

What is his email? jackpeace@comcast.net? I'd like to give him a piece of my mind, I would.

That's it but for the love of every diety in history, DO NOT BE A JUVENILE ASS and do not threaten his life.

I'm all for sticking it to him. Just be careful not to give him more fodder.I'm aware of that, I've written out a draft of the email (I've been working on it for a good three days). One thing to remember though, is I am not an american citizen.

[njiska]

I'm aware of that, I've written out a draft of the email (I've been working on it for a good three days). One thing to remember though, is I am not an american citizen.

Nor am i but he's not just after changing laws. He's directly attacking ESA members and that affects us all.

[smokehouse]

I just sent this to him, I tried to bait him with a few “I agree with you” statements.

Jack,

I have to say that I agree with many of your statements about the current sate of the video game world. Games like Grand Theft Auto are, in fact, violent and are purely designed to raise controversy and cause problems. However, I do feel however that you are going in the wrong direction with your attacks and lawsuits. I am 28-year-old man who is a hard working husband, American and God fearing citizen. As Bill Cosby has said in the past, it is the parents who are the ones to blame for the violent actions of their children, not movies, not video games, not music. Sure, there are random acts brought forth by mental illness that have no fault to place anywhere, but blaming a murder’s act on a video game? That’s absurd. I would go into detail about recent violent acts from children but that would be simply repeating information that you’re already aware of. What I am saying is that video games weren’t the catalyst for these attacks, it was a combination of bad parenting and mental illness. I have played video games for over 15 years and I do not commit acts of violence to my wife, my friends or in my community.

Before you bring up the fact that I am a Christian who plays video games and make an attempt to point out my hypocrisy, please note that not all games are violent and wrong. For every pile of trash like Grand Theft Auto, there are 10 games that are benign. Your attacks on “gamers” are insulting and come across as words from a religious zealot. I am offended by many of the statements you’ve made in that past and hope you change your approach. You have a good idea, just a bad application.

Sincerely,
Jonathan Lovelace

[diskoboy]

What is his email? jackpeace@comcast.net? I'd like to give him a piece of my mind, I would.

That's it but for the love of every diety in history, DO NOT BE A JUVENILE ASS and do not threaten his life.

I'm all for sticking it to him. Just be careful not to give him more fodder.I'm aware of that, I've written out a draft of the email (I've been working on it for a good three days). One thing to remember though, is I am not an american citizen.

SEND IT!! Citizen or not. As long as it's non-threatening... Then post it here for all to see if he responds! Hearing this from a non-citizen may/may not do much, but it may make others (even those supporting him) realize how stupid he truly is, and stand up to bullies like him. Actually, we all should! Then EVERY response that is recieved should be posted on the forum!!!! I'm drafting one, as we speak/type!

Making his private insults more public will fuel our cause! 8-)

[poe]

The problem is, if walmart, eb, gamespot, ect don't stock AO games, who will? CD stores? Bigass electronic/furniture stores, hidden under something? If they can't be SOLD anywhere major, they won't be made.

In my town at least, EB still has GTA:SA, and a chain called Hastings (small and medium market-centralized stores) stocks them with a "Must be 18 to purchase" sticker. Currently, they are the only stores.

They sell shitloads, and I love them for it.

Honestly, I've never heard anyone suggest that worst case scenario, things will play out exactly as they do with the previously mentioned CD example. Walmart stocks a version with objectionable content removed, and sees a huge number of returns from people who do not want a censored product. The Hastings of the world don't seem to care about ratings, so long as point-of-sale policies are enforced. If they corner the market on adult entertainment (honestly, their adult magazine section takes up twice as much space as their home and gardening), they'll only do so briefly, as with video games (and CDs) places like Best Buy and Circuit City have to move huge quantities to really be profitable considering the margins involved. They'll loosen up their policies rather than piss away market share.

Also, speaking as someone who works at a major electronics retailer, I can rest assured that when we receive NC-17 movies on shipments regularly , this whole GTA being pulled incident will probably wind up more of a knee-jerk reaction in hindsight, since there are too many double-standards that come into play if GTA's AO version is kept out of Best Buy, while Flesh Gordon is not.

[Griking]

The problem is, if walmart, eb, gamespot, ect don't stock AO games, who will? CD stores? Bigass electronic/furniture stores, hidden under something? If they can't be SOLD anywhere major, they won't be made.

Instead of attacking people because they're demanding harsher videogame ratings (many of which really deserve them) I think that people should be protesting against retailers like Wal-Mart and Gamestop to carry games that are rated as adults only.

The problem that I see it is that many retailers still act as if videogames are still only for kids which clearly isn't the case. These companies need to open their eyes and realize that the kids that grew up with videogames years ago are now adults who still play games, and many of them have money in their pockets to spend.

Lets be honest. Many of the games being singled out really should only be accessable to adults. I don't think that we disagree with that. It seems that the major worry that people here have are that these games won't be available to adults either. And that in my opinion os the fault of the retailers, not the rating the games get.

Oh and for the record, I was in an EBWorld and a Strawberries last week and they both carried the AO version of GTA on their store shelves. So for as far as I can see the game is clearly available for adults to purchase.

[Wavelflack]

He's "viollating" our 1st amendment rights? How so?

"abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press"

Artwork (hence: GTA:SA, or any video game for that matter..) falls under this catagory. It could be considered either speech or press. Even though I think it would fall more under speech. It's hard to say since there weren't video games in 1776. Basically, any form of self-expression is what I'm trying to get at.

"the vast majority of gamers are stoners, so silly, so self-absorbed, so self-righteous, and so idiotic are their rants."
Jack Thompson's own words. Taken from: http://aelon.net/2005/07/jack-thompson-straw-man/

I freely admit that I haven't studied much about this guy, but what I've seen so far hasn't included any proposals to outlaw the creation of any games, but rather to enforce the ratings.

Just because I write a column doesn't mean a newspaper has to publish it. And if they don't publish my column, then I'm not being censored. I'm just being ignored.

If we get a government-enforced ratings system (ie; fines for violations), then that's fine. As long as there is a classification for every part of the spectrum, then there is no censorship taking place.

As far as the old "they wont make AO games because they wont sell!" argument: Too bad. That's the artist's choice to make, and not a restiction imposed upon them. I might want to write a song called "Fuck Wal-Mart!", and I might be truly expressing my artistic feelings, but if I want Wal Mart to carry and sell zillions of my albums, then I probably will have to make a choice between money and "art".

Incidentally, I have seen probably thousands of examples of "implied" or "tastefully done" sex scenes on TV, movies, and in games, and I never failed to understand what was going on. If the sex is integral to the gameplay or the coherency of the story in a game, and the developer wants to be able to sell games at Wal Mart, all he has to do editorially imply the sexual aspects. If it's that important to a developer to cross the "accepted boundaries" and show graphic content that reclassifies the game, then they do that of their own volition.

Problem solved.

[RJ]

I got a kick out of an article in the latest OPM issue that mentioned a woman who was shocked to discover the "M" rating meant Mature...

Her kids had been telling her it was for "Mild" all along! LOL

[AFGiant]

I would like to thank EBGames for this little piece I picked up last year, before any of this mess.

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/6883/silence24ey.jpg

The message still holds true.

Senators speaking out blindly against games in general? WE COULD VOTE THEM OUT! Think about the force that could be generated from all the gamers! They would FEAR us! Think about the millions and millions of people who bought Grand Theft Auto or Madden, or even owned an NES way back in the day! I see us here at DP as the more civilized, concerned gamers of the world. But what if we could somehow rally every 18 year old Joe Blow as Public School 123? If every casual gamer got his or her friends to help out with the cause? So many people...maybe that could be the way.


Again though, it still may not be enough. But I sure as hell think its a better idea then emailing Jack death threats or making fun of him on the internet.



On a side note, anyone who feels strongly about this issue should read the graphic novel "Channel Zero" by Brian Wood, if you haven't already. Not only does it deal with extreme media censorship, but it's also an excellent piece of literature and art.

And that's my two cents.

[Griking]

I freely admit that I haven't studied much about this guy, but what I've seen so far hasn't included any proposals to outlaw the creation of any games, but rather to enforce the ratings.

Just because I write a column doesn't mean a newspaper has to publish it. And if they don't publish my column, then I'm not being censored. I'm just being ignored.

If we get a government-enforced ratings system (ie; fines for violations), then that's fine. As long as there is a classification for every part of the spectrum, then there is no censorship taking place.

As far as the old "they wont make AO games because they wont sell!" argument: Too bad. That's the artist's choice to make, and not a restiction imposed upon them. I might want to write a song called "Fuck Wal-Mart!", and I might be truly expressing my artistic feelings, but if I want Wal Mart to carry and sell zillions of my albums, then I probably will have to make a choice between money and "art".

Incidentally, I have seen probably thousands of examples of "implied" or "tastefully done" sex scenes on TV, movies, and in games, and I never failed to understand what was going on. If the sex is integral to the gameplay or the coherency of the story in a game, and the developer wants to be able to sell games at Wal Mart, all he has to do editorially imply the sexual aspects. If it's that important to a developer to cross the "accepted boundaries" and show graphic content that reclassifies the game, then they do that of their own volition.

Problem solved.
The problem that I see in everything that you just wrote is that it makes too much sense. A few of us are trying to be logical about the issues at hand while too many others are being overly emotional to the issues at hand.

[Wavelflack]

There's something sad about the prospect of mobilizing an entire segment of the populace to finally get out and vote...

..because they are concerned about video games.


:hmm:

[AFGiant]

There's something sad about the prospect of mobilizing an entire segment of the populace to finally get out and vote...

..because they are concerned about video games.


:hmm:

Hey, whatever works bro. It's better to just pitch out ideas than sit around idly drooling on your keyboard, right?

[Wavelflack]

Except that the prospect of several million (single issue)voters, ignorant of all issues except the name of their "anti-videogame" senator or congressman, is disturbing. The rest of the ballot sheet is a roll of the dice with people like that.

[cityside75]

I actually think that all of this could have the opposite affect on the industry than it seems that many of you fear!

The music industry was mentioned earlier and I think this is an excellent analogy. Those of you that were watching it back during the whole Explicit Lyrics controversy centered primarily on rap music of the late 80'-early 90's (I was working at Camelot Music at the time), probably remember that in some of the most extreme examples, the music was essentially a gimmick to push the envelope (2 Live Crew and Luke Skyywalker). While even the more artistically compelling examples of the time, like NWA were well aware that they were pushing the envelope.

Once the Explicit Lyrics sticker "solution" was enacted, the whole genre gained some level of cultural acceptance (remember the Explicit Lyrics T-Shirts?). In the years since, we've had artists that have released albums considered "masterpieces" by many that would have never even been released 20 years ago. Eminem and Tupac have done pretty well while releasing edited versions for Wal-Mart, and to most people the explicit lyrics aren't all that shocking anymore. Essentially market forces demonstrated that there was an audience for this.

I think that's right where the videogame industry stands right now. I think that in some ways the GTA series is a "masterpiece" of the genre, but I also know that its makers are all too aware of the envelope pushing they are doing. To me it's the NWA of the situation. Games like Manhunt (which I haven't played) seem to me like 2 Live Crew. The games, mostly GTA, have proven that a huge market for this entertainment exists. Putting some extra measure of (false?) security that young ones won't get their hands on them will only take the stigma and need for gimmicks away and allow this particular segment of the medium to mature.

I don't like the movie analogy (NC-17 is a death sentence) primarily because many movies still have to make some money in public theater showings, where the theater owners have to truly keep those under 17 out. That definitely limits the potential audience and therefore revenue for the theater owner, so why would they want to do that? Whereas with R-rated movies and videogames, parents can be as irresponsible as they want to be, and get to make the final decision. Clearly "unrated" DVDs do quite well at retail, as does pornography.

[diskoboy]

Except that the prospect of several million (single issue)voters, ignorant of all issues except the name of their "anti-videogame" senator or congressman, is disturbing. The rest of the ballot sheet is a roll of the dice with people like that.

Actually, were here because he has insulted us all. He thinks anyone who has ever played a video game is scum, and we wanna get him off his high horse. Basically, what's going on is the equivallent of a professional boxer trying to pick a fight with a second grader. Voting won't do a thing to hurt or help this guy. Lawyers aren't elected officials.

I think we're all here to come up with legal soultions to get rid of him. Because honestly people, death threats are not helping us much. And if you stop and think about it, it will affect the way games are delevoped. Developers will be too scared that their mature games could get the dreaded "AO".

They'll either quit making games for adults - period, and every game will be Spongebob Squarepants, or Shrek. No one over the age of 10 will want to play video games. OR They'll continue to make them, the government will continue to bitch about every little thing, the game will get the AO rating, after all, and stores won't carry them. Therefore, they (the stores and the developers) can't make any money. The long reaching effects could be pretty bad.

[Yamazaki]

Why do you collect all his mails and commens and send them together to some bigger news site like cnn, yahoo whatever.

And a topic like "Jack Thompson and his crusade of insults".

if people read his stuff they'll perhaps figure out what a real loser he is.

[Wavelflack]

I must have missed the day they eliminated "Teen" and "Mature" categories for games.

I'm 31, and I don't mind playing GTA. I also don't mind playing Mechassault 2, and I don't mind playing Super Monkey Ball or Mario Golf. I don't feel embarrassed or emasculated for playing something rated less than "M".
Games don't become worthy of adult usage just because they have over the top violence or sex.

[diskoboy]

Why do you collect all his mails and commens and send them together to some bigger news site like cnn, yahoo whatever.

And a topic like "Jack Thompson and his crusade of insults".

if people read his stuff they'll perhaps figure out what a real loser he is.

Actually, one site has already given them to MSNBC, I believe it was, and even mailed copies to Hilary Clinton and Joe however-you-spell-his-name (Libermann) .... If anyone in this forum writes this man, and you recieve a nasty reply, we may start a topic here and let people post their e-mails/replies, as long as they're mature and non-threatning - On the writers end, of course! :)

So if you have something to say to this man, we urge you to say it! Just be mature about it! And no death threats, of course..

[diskoboy]

I must have missed the day they eliminated "Teen" and "Mature" categories for games.

I'm 31, and I don't mind playing GTA. I also don't mind playing Mechassault 2, and I don't mind playing Super Monkey Ball or Mario Golf. I don't feel embarrassed or emasculated for playing something rated less than "M".
Games don't become worthy of adult usage just because they have over the top violence or sex.

Actually, I'm 30, and I've got some E rated games. I'm not afraid to admit that. The lack of variety would make it kinda boring though...

[Bluteg]

In the movie industry if a movie is rated NC-17 it is delayed and edited until it is brought down to an R rating because most movie theators will not show NC-17 movies. Since NC-17 = AO then your games will have unnecessary censorship because the ESRB will be scared (due to the lawsuit threat) to rate games with "risque" material with a "M" rating.

The Eminem and Tupac comparison is not accurate because Wal-Mart is one of, if not the only store that refuses to carry unedited music. If games are rated AO then many stores besides Wal-Mart will not carry the game. NC-17 and AO are assumed to be porn, while a PA sticker is considered to have an uncensored meaning and not "porn".

[evildead2099]

Adults can still buy the games. So what's the problem? Their only censoring minors. Go big deal.

Yes, it's real easy for me to buy a copy of GTA: SA now that it's received an AO rating, just as its easy for me to rent NC-17 films </sarcasm>. Did you miss that whole part about how games which use sex and / or violence in creative ways to drive compelling storylines will be blacklisted from the market as though they are XXX pornography? :roll:

[evildead2099]

Back in the 80's Tipper Gore and the PMRC had all these congressional hearings regarding the violent and sexual content in music. Several bands were blamed for violent behavior and I believe it was Black Sabbath who was actually sued in Arizona for supposedly driving a teenager to suicide. The music industry responded by putting the "explicit lyrics" advisories on 'potty mouthed' CDs. Some retailers, most notably Wal-Mart, refused (and continue to refuse) to carry such labeled CDs. The artists cried out "censorship!" "cultural war!" and worried about lost revenues and the inability to sell records (not an invalid concern -- pre-internet, Wal-Mart was the only way for most people to buy music in small town USA).

Fast forward 20 years. Nobody really cares about the advisory stickers. They haven't cut into sales (other factors have according to the labels). If I want to buy a CD with 'explicit lyrics', I go to one of the many stores that carry them, or the net. As a consumer, I still have a very high level of choice.

1) It was Ozzy Osborne (the solo artist) who was sued for supposedly 'causing' two mentally disturbed boys to commit suicide, not Black Sabbath. The point you were making is valid despite the confusion of artists.

2) The is a very significant difference in the way that Tipper-stickered CDs and the way that AO-rated games have been treated by mainstream retailers: virtually no chain store wants to stock AO-rated games, whereas there ARE a few music stores which (thankfully) carry albums with parental advisory labels on them.

In terms of market censorship, videogames are apparently getting it worse than has music. Unlike the music situation, this isn't a matter of opting to shop at retailers other than Wal-Mart. The point is that if you want to buy AO games, you have no where to go. Very few companies are willing to invest in projects bound to receive the AO rating since they stand to lose so much revenue from the lack of marketability. What artists feared would happen to the state of music has already happened the state of movies (NC-17 films) and now to the state of gaming.


NC-17 and AO are assumed to be porn, while a PA sticker is considered to have an uncensored meaning and not "porn"

My point exactly.

[evildead2099]

I freely admit that I haven't studied much about this guy, but what I've seen so far hasn't included any proposals to outlaw the creation of any games, but rather to enforce the ratings.

Just because I write a column doesn't mean a newspaper has to publish it. And if they don't publish my column, then I'm not being censored. I'm just being ignored.

If we get a government-enforced ratings system (ie; fines for violations), then that's fine. As long as there is a classification for every part of the spectrum, then there is no censorship taking place.

As far as the old "they wont make AO games because they wont sell!" argument: Too bad. That's the artist's choice to make, and not a restiction imposed upon them. I might want to write a song called "Fuck Wal-Mart!", and I might be truly expressing my artistic feelings, but if I want Wal Mart to carry and sell zillions of my albums, then I probably will have to make a choice between money and "art".

Incidentally, I have seen probably thousands of examples of "implied" or "tastefully done" sex scenes on TV, movies, and in games, and I never failed to understand what was going on. If the sex is integral to the gameplay or the coherency of the story in a game, and the developer wants to be able to sell games at Wal Mart, all he has to do editorially imply the sexual aspects. If it's that important to a developer to cross the "accepted boundaries" and show graphic content that reclassifies the game, then they do that of their own volition.

Problem solved.
The problem that I see in everything that you just wrote is that it makes too much sense. A few of us are trying to be logical about the issues at hand while too many others are being overly emotional to the issues at hand.

Way to smear those who happen to disagree with you, Griking. For a change, I'd like to see you make points that are actually based on quantitative data rather than on opinion.


If a game has quality, as well as an AO rating, then it shouldn't matter whether or not "big chains" will carry it. You guys are all for talking big about the "purity" and artistic integrity that is being "threatened"...why not put your money where your mouth is? Support those games. Buy them. Have your friends buy them.

Your suggestion would be well and fine if it wasn't for the fact that few game companies are going to give their devlopment teams the green light if the content they wish to incorporate into their projects is bound to be met with an AO rating. AO-rated games will effectively become as uncommon as NC-17 films.

[Lothars]

He's "viollating" our 1st amendment rights? How so?

"abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press"

Artwork (hence: GTA:SA, or any video game for that matter..) falls under this catagory. It could be considered either speech or press. Even though I think it would fall more under speech. It's hard to say since there weren't video games in 1776. Basically, any form of self-expression is what I'm trying to get at.

"the vast majority of gamers are stoners, so silly, so self-absorbed, so self-righteous, and so idiotic are their rants."
Jack Thompson's own words. Taken from: http://aelon.net/2005/07/jack-thompson-straw-man/

I freely admit that I haven't studied much about this guy, but what I've seen so far hasn't included any proposals to outlaw the creation of any games, but rather to enforce the ratings.

Just because I write a column doesn't mean a newspaper has to publish it. And if they don't publish my column, then I'm not being censored. I'm just being ignored.

If we get a government-enforced ratings system (ie; fines for violations), then that's fine. As long as there is a classification for every part of the spectrum, then there is no censorship taking place.

As far as the old "they wont make AO games because they wont sell!" argument: Too bad. That's the artist's choice to make, and not a restiction imposed upon them. I might want to write a song called "Fuck Wal-Mart!", and I might be truly expressing my artistic feelings, but if I want Wal Mart to carry and sell zillions of my albums, then I probably will have to make a choice between money and "art".

Incidentally, I have seen probably thousands of examples of "implied" or "tastefully done" sex scenes on TV, movies, and in games, and I never failed to understand what was going on. If the sex is integral to the gameplay or the coherency of the story in a game, and the developer wants to be able to sell games at Wal Mart, all he has to do editorially imply the sexual aspects. If it's that important to a developer to cross the "accepted boundaries" and show graphic content that reclassifies the game, then they do that of their own volition.

Problem solved.

I don't see how the problem is solved by that at all.

your anology about cd's and explicited lyrics and games and AO ratings are incorrect in my opinion because they are not related, Most stores would still carry them if the cd has explicited lyrics, games that Have an AO rating will not carry them, even though the AO ratings shouldn't be used unless the game explicitily deserves it, I think the ESRB is a decent rating system than many other types of media

but i guess we will see.

[emumuumuucowgomoo]

I don't see how the problem is solved by that at all.

your anology about cd's and explicited lyrics and games and AO ratings are incorrect in my opinion because they are not related, Most stores would still carry them if the cd has explicited lyrics, games that Have an AO rating will not carry them, even though the AO ratings shouldn't be used unless the game explicitily deserves it, I think the ESRB is a decent rating system than many other types of media

but i guess we will see.

I wouldn't worry too much. What'll happen is that the real game stores will carry it, the sucky ones won't. Then, sooner or later, a game will come about that's AO and a top ten seller, and the stores will scramble all over themselves to change their Puritannical, hate-fueled policies. Life will go on.



<letter carefully snipped out>

Just so you know for the future, it's considered polite within a business / formal letter such as yours, to address the receipient by his full name, just as you signed it with yours.




And remember - all of these people are "trolls" in the real world. The same sort of trolls who get banned from message boards. Unfortunately, we can't ban them from the real world - well, we could, but it'd work out perfectly, and if something happened perfectly right, the world as we know it would cease to exist, and would you know that over 50% of the voting and tax paying population knows the world as they know it? Think of what would happen to all those tax dollars was the knowledge of these innocent citizens to be proven wrong!

Point being, we can take the other response - ignore them, and hope they'll go away. That's what the majority of America elects to do.

[evildead2099]

I wouldn't worry too much. What'll happen is that the real game stores will carry it, the sucky ones won't.

What 'real' game stores do you have in mind? Gamestop, Electronics Boutique, Best Buy, Future Shop, Circuit City, and (surprise!) Wal-Mart have all confirmed that they will not sell AO-rated games in their stores.


Sooner or later, a game will come about that's AO and a top ten seller, and the stores will scramble all over themselves to change their Puritannical, hate-fueled policies.

If there's any top-ten seller that should've reversed corporate prejudice against AO-rated games, an installment of Grand Theft Auto should've been it. Sales figures show that GTA is one of the biggest franchises that the gaming industry has ever seen. GTA:SA would've sold well regardless of whether its rating was M or AO. Customers weren't about to stop buying it just because the age restriction went up by one year from 17+ to 18+.

[smokehouse]

Just so you know for the future, it's considered polite within a business / formal letter such as yours, to address the receipient by his full name, just as you signed it with yours.

I was going to write his full name but decided not to due to the things that he has said about our kind (gamers). It was kind of a gentile “F-you” without being blatant or down right rude. I am not surprised to say that I have not yet received a return nor do I expect to either. Possibly I’ll just email him every other day until I finally get a response.

Again, I can’t understand why everyone runs to the aid if game makers like Rockstar. Titles like GTA, Manhunt and State of Emergency are nothing but titles designed to raise controversy with stupid, over the top violence and sex. Can’t anyone else see this? They’re the video game equivalency of a shock-jock. Not talented enough to make real games so they go for the lowest common denominator, flat out sex and gratuitous violence. Games like Metal Gear have to be violent; it’s in their nature. Manhunt on the other hand, it was designed to make controversy in order to gain sales. That I find offensive. Blatant, reckless use of shitty gimmicks and they finally stirred up the hornets nest. Thanks a bunch Rockstar. You know what, I think I’ll email them.

[jdc]

So you won't be able to go to Walmart to buy AO rated games. What's the big deal? Go to a store that does carry them. If you think that there will come a day when AO rated games will cease to exist then you are sorely mistaken. A game such as Grand Theft Auto will sell more copies with an AO rating than with an M rating because that would be the wet dream of many gamers. The industry isn't about to turn it's collective back on that kind of cash cow. There are more kinds of games to play besides AO rateds anyways.

This is no big deal at all.

[evildead2099]

So you won't be able to go to Walmart to buy AO rated games. What's the big deal? Go to a store that does carry them. ... The industry isn't about to turn it's collective back on that kind of cash cow. There are more kinds of games to play besides AO rateds anyways.

Dude, read my posts and pay attention to the points that people have made clear. The "big deal" has been made painfully obvious to those who take the time to acutally read what others have written.:roll:

[smokehouse]

Well, I emailed the PR team from Rockstar. I strongly doubt they’ll respond but who knows.


Rockstar PR representative,

I am a 28-year-old avid video game player who has been playing titles for over 15 years. I clearly remember all the controversial Lieberman hearings on video game violence and have seen the industry come out the other side. I believe that video games and some levels of violence go hand in hand but I feel that your company, Rockstar games has gone too far in some of the recent titles you’ve released. Titles like Manhunt and Grand Theft Auto are nothing but titles designed to raise controversy and that’s exactly what they’ve done. In times such as these where artistic freedoms are under fire, why attempt to make things worse? With video games being blamed for atrocious murders and anti social behavior, why add fuel to the fire? With GTA going to an AO rating, you’ve just limited where the title will be sold and all for what? A ridiculous sexual intercourse scene? What possible purpose does this have?

Your company is going to cause more problems than you know with actions such as these. This email may fall on deaf ears but it is one step I can take to make my voice heard. I for one will not buy one of your products simply based on the fact that your company uses tools such as these simply to make sales. I will also use my voice in the many gaming communities that I am a member of to make it known how I feel about your titles as well.

Thank you,
Jonathan Lovelace.

[emumuumuucowgomoo]

I wouldn't worry too much. What'll happen is that the real game stores will carry it, the sucky ones won't.

What 'real' game stores do you have in mind? Gamestop, Electronics Boutique, Best Buy, Future Shop, Circuit City, and (surprise!) Wal-Mart have all confirmed that they will not sell AO-rated games in their stores.

Looks like the next generation of computer savvy technowizards will have to take it to the online.

Half.com... Amazon.com... the independant marketers of the modern age! (insert "buahahahaha" here)

I know I'd be completely willing to purchase games with my credit card for any high school friend of mine provided they <s>will play hide the sausage in the back seat of my van</s> reimburse me in cash. Saves my lazy ass a trip to the bank, gets them the cool games they want, everybody wins.



Sooner or later, a game will come about that's AO and a top ten seller, and the stores will scramble all over themselves to change their Puritannical, hate-fueled policies.

If there's any top-ten seller that should've reversed corporate prejudice against AO-rated games, an installment of Grand Theft Auto should've been it. Sales figures show that GTA is one of the biggest franchises that the gaming industry has ever seen. GTA:SA would've sold well regardless of whether its rating was M or AO. Customers weren't about to stop buying it just because the age restriction went up by one year from 17+ to 18+.


ME TOO +1 LOLZ.