Messiah's NEX System: Summary of Claims and Facts

[Jagasian]

Please stop making up things. I DID NOT DO ANY INTERVIEWS FOR THE NEX. I have explained this is my previous post.

I am not trying to attack you here, but at some point in one of the other NEX threads, you stated that you were doing the PR for the NEX. Now either I can't find it, or you have since edited it, but I remember it quite clearly because I was surprised by it when I saw it. Anyone who goes back and reads the "Messiah delays the NEX AGAIN!!!" thread will see that you are clearly making yourself out to be a representative of the company. "We" is always used instead of "they" when referring to Messiah. I think the fact that you are now trying to separate yourself from them means that you are as surprised as the rest of us by what has been happening here, and you are attempting to bow out while saving some face. Seems to be that you were as duped as the rest of us( being that you were told that the NEX was NOT NOT NOT based on an NOAC. Who exactly told you that?)

I quoted the posts of DreamTR's, where he represents Messiah and the NEX, in the parent post of this thread. Here they are again:



I spoke to a Messiah rep about doing an interview for Hardcore Gamer Magazine that would have shed some light on the compatibility issue, as well as features, connections, etc. She fed me a press release and that was it, so I didn't even mention their product in the mag. I don't need them to speculate; I can do that myself.

Melf, you must have done that a LONG time ago because I'm the only one who has been doing PR Requests for months, and last I checked, I am not female.

It was in early June, for the issue of HGM that came out this week. I ended up having to devote the entire feature to the Atari Flashback games, but I did do a write up of the console for GotNext.


DreamTR, you should realize that I as well as many other people are aware of your contributions to the NES community, especially when it comes to rare games, prototypes, etc. We all appreciate you for that. However, you should also, with a cool head, re-read the original posts between you and I. I was merely stating facts and asking questions, and then you personally attacked me. I never attacked you, but only requested a compatbility list and pictures of the NEX's circuit board. We just wanted the truth, but instead we all got attacked. I appreciate that you are now being forthcoming about all of this, but I disagree that I have misrepresented you or quoted you out of context. I have merely posted straightforward quotations of the threads which are linked from the parent post of this thread.

Also, if what you say is true, and really I don't doubt that it is true, then somebody lied to you. So the question now is, who told you that it was not NOAC based? Even if the lie traces back to the outsourced labor, Messiah should have never let such a thing get back to the consumer. They should have seen for themselves that the outsourced labor used a cheapy NOAC, as opposed to passing the buck to the consumer. With all the hell that everybody had been raising about the system using a NOAC or not, Messiah definitely knew that it used a NOAC before they shipped the NEX.

The only way for this to be put to rest is for those involved to own up to what really happened, who started the lie about it not using a NOAC, and Messiah must be straightforward about not just the games that do not run on the system, but also the other glitches, bugs, missing sounds, etc that occur in other games. Saying 95% compatible misrepresents the true nature of the system, as that is merely the percentage of games that run, yet still may have problems, which has been pointed out many times by several people. Otherwise Messiah is no different from all of the other shadey Famiclone manufacturers, who don't tell you the truth about what they are selling you.

[DreamTR]

Jagasian, a few posts ago, I told you who I heard it from. Please read my posts. Thank you.

Also, again, me doing "PR" and that "interview" which clearly displays the person doing the interview, and the NAME of the person doing the interview which is not me, are not the same thing. I handled PR "requests" at the time,which basically means emails about PR that were forwarded to me I forwarded to someone else.

[adaml]

Will the Game Action Replay by STD fit into the NEX?

[Jagasian]

Will the Game Action Replay by STD fit into the NEX?

No, it does not fit in the NEX's slot. Hell, it barely fits in a toaster NES! For those that don't know, the Game Action Replay is a cheat cart, like the Game Genie, but it allows real-time saving. Yup, your favorite emulator didn't invent real-time saving. In fact, I think that the Game Action Replay was the first instance of real-time save, and if not, it was the Japanese Famicom equivalent of the Game Action Replay.

[Great Hierophant]

All Nintendo official NES/Famicom consoles operate internally in the exact same manner. This includes the Famicom, front-loader NES, top-loader NES, Famicom AV. (Authorized Sharp Famicom products work slightly differently.) Whatever their external features (controller and expansion ports), internally they process all data in the exact same way.

Generation NEX is designed and marketed as a NES replacement, cheaper than a top-loader and more reliable than a front-loader according to the marketing. Okay, lets put the hype to the test. Let it play side by side against each of the four systems listed above. Castlevania III works in all the above consoles (w/ pin converters as needed), but not in a NEX. Akumajou Densetsu sings with the Famicoms but barely sqeeks in a NEX.

There is a large difference between backwards-compatibility and a replacement system. A system that is "backwards-compatible" will play most games fine and generally show some glitches on some. Gameboy Color/Advance to Game Boy, PS2 to PSX, Genesis to Master System, 7800 to 2600. Only a very, very small handful refused to work at all or had glitches, and the rest worked perfectly. Why shouldn't a replacement system work as well as, if not better, than the system it is trying to replace. I don't recall any problems with the NES to NES2, Gameboy to Gameboy Pocket, PSX to PSOne, 2600 to 2600jr. Other products, like the Master System II, Genesis 3, or Atari 5200 2-port, or Intellivision II, which could not work with certain games, have been identified.

Because it does not contain built-in games, it is useless without NES or Famicom cartridges. As it is not being currently sold in Japan, where Famicoms are as common there as NESs as here, the Famicom slot is only for the hardcore. When they hear music missing in their FDS games and in other cartridges well-known to use cartridge sound hardware, they will be disappointed. If certain NES games won't work on the system, I can bet that many more Famicom games won't either, as they pushed and hacked the hardware to a greater extent. It really becomes a crap-shoot at that point.

The NES side of the equasion is more reliable, if only in the sense that fewer games are confirmed not to work or work playably. But what about the consumer? I hate shoddy products as much as the next person, but knockoffs especially draw rage from me. I don't care that the NES patents have expired, a crappy knockoff does no justice to the geniune article. It is important to educate the buying public of the product they may wish to spend their money on.

Even so, you must start by playing the game on the NES and observe how it should look and sound. If NEX did the same, we wouldn't be having these discussions. But it sounds markedly different from a NES.

Finally, we have had the front-loaders around for 20 years, we know their problems intimately and can deal with them. You can get a front loader for $10-15. Flashing screen? Repair or replace the cartridge connector. Unlicensed game won't work? Disable the lockout chip. Want wireless controllers? Buy a NES Satellite. Want to play a Famicom game? Buy a converter or even better buy a true Famicom. All the useful features of the NEX are already here, with some effort you will have a reliable system as Jag tells us. You can never have problems using a reliable front loader.

[TheRedEye]

It's easy to say that this thing is meant for the casual, nostalgic gamer who just wants to play Mario 2 or whatever, but then I remember that there's a miniature price guide included with the thing, and I just get confused again. Who, exactly, is the NEX's target audience?

[n8littlefield]

It's easy to say that this thing is meant for the casual, nostalgic gamer who just wants to play Mario 2 or whatever, but then I remember that there's a miniature price guide included with the thing, and I just get confused again. Who, exactly, is the NEX's target audience?

That is the EXACT point I tried to make, but got jumped on by the ones defending the NEX. They sell wireless classic controllers, only a hardcore player would be ordering such a thing. Then, they have a system that has a rarity guide and a Famicom port - again things only a hardcore player would want. Finally, they do an internet presale that only people who frequent sites like this would know about.

Then, when it has worse compatibility than a Yobo, they say it's for the casual gamer O_O

BTW, I've never owned a Famicom game, in a nutshell why is the Japanese version of Castlevania 3 so sought after and bragged about, is it much better than the US one?

[Jorpho]

The Japanese version of Castlevania III included an extra chip, namely the VRC6, for improved music that was lacking in the US version. See also http://donut.parodius.com/?func=trans&platform=nes&gamekey=558 .

[Great Hierophant]

They sell wireless classic controllers, only a hardcore player would be ordering such a thing. Then, they have a system that has a rarity guide and a Famicom port - again things only a hardcore player would want.

Once a hardcore player learned that the wireless controllers had a terrible D-Pad and that the Famicom port lacked the connections to play on-board sound, he wouldn't want to buy the machine anymore. I would guess it is really designed for the "NES fan", somone who wants a decent-priced and reliable machine to play his NES or Famicom cartridges on and doesn't care that a few games won't work at all or are not playable, that the system will sound somewhat different compared to a NES and that other games will work but with minor graphical glitches.

[Jagasian]

Why won't Messiah make their wireless controllers with a traditional "plus" style D-pad? NES and SNES gamers are used to that, and aside from the useless D-pad, everything else about Messiah's wireless controllers is great. Until then, I plan on using the upcoming NubyTech wireless Street Fighter PS2 controller (http://gear.ign.com/articles/612/612015p1.html) with my PS2-to-SNES controller adapter (http://www.lik-sang.com/info.php?category=226&products_id=3464&). There is a similar converter that converts from PS2 to NES.

Any word on how the NubyTech Street Fighter 2 D-pad compares to the NES and SNES D-pads? Why are most modern D-pads so bad?

[Jorpho]

I thought it was well-established that Nintendo held a patent on +-shaped D-pads. (Frankly, the PSX 4-button thing was infinitely superior to most of the circular pads I have seen.)

[Leo_A]

Think I read a post here saying they were planning to rerelease their wireless pads with a d-pad like the Generation NEX's wired pads got (not the same as Nintendo's but it looks much improved over what Messiah used previously). Only heard it once though and that was months ago.

I hope it happens assuming it's not junk (I haven't tried the Generation Nex's d pad), I didn't care for the original design they used on their wireless controllers like many others.

[Jagasian]

I thought it was well-established that Nintendo held a patent on +-shaped D-pads. (Frankly, the PSX 4-button thing was infinitely superior to most of the circular pads I have seen.)

Nintendo's patent on +-shaped D-pads has to have expired by now, as is the case with many of their other Famicom and NES patents. The PSX D-pad is terrible for "Street Fighter"-like fighting games. I think that the SNES D-pad is a nice middle ground between circular D-pads and the PSX 4 button D-pad.

The Messiah wireless D-pad is too sensitive, allowing accidentally direction presses, and it is too slow to allow double-tapping a direction, for example to run in Double Dragon (NES) or to execute a special move in Street Fighter 2 (SNES).

[john_soper]

It has now come to light that NEX = YOBO + WIRELESS
Chris
Oh, so that's what a NEX is, I cruised by their CGE booth, but the blonde was simply too distracting. :)

I probably won't buy one mostly because after tinkering in the lab on a circuit board yesterday, I'm now able to play my toaster and SNES with Wavebirds. :D

[davepesc]

It's easy to say that this thing is meant for the casual, nostalgic gamer who just wants to play Mario 2 or whatever, but then I remember that there's a miniature price guide included with the thing, and I just get confused again. Who, exactly, is the NEX's target audience?

I never understood the "casual" gamer that supposedly has a closetfull of NES games.

"Casual" gamers don't go thrifting or scour yard sales for old games.

[davepesc]

NubyTech wireless Street Fighter PS2 controller (http://gear.ign.com/articles/612/612015p1.html)

Those are cool. I have the wired ones and they are really good for SF. The only funny thing is that the default controls don't match up to the button layout. I played a lot of confused matches before I realized I needed to go into the settings and remap the buttons.

On a side note, I wonder if the wireless controllers will really come with SF branded batteries. I guess you could only hold on to them for so long before they leak.

[Mangar]

It's easy to say that this thing is meant for the casual, nostalgic gamer who just wants to play Mario 2 or whatever, but then I remember that there's a miniature price guide included with the thing, and I just get confused again. Who, exactly, is the NEX's target audience?

Nothing turns casual gamers into "collectors" faster then a price guide. Once people figure out that the "junk" in their attic could potentially be worth big bucks, a whole collectors boom is born. Just like with baseball cards, action figures, etc... Not that i believe this is going to happen, but my guess is that the inclusion of a price guide is solely directed to the casual gamer, as a means of letting him know that a collectors "scene" exists.

It's also this targeting of the casual gamer which bothers me the most about the whole NEX fiasco. People on this board who bought one at ANY time knew exactly what they were getting. Casual gamers who perhaps pick one up in a store - Don't. The logic that they won't know any better, because all they play is "Mario" or "Zelda" is faulty at best. Casual gamers like all gamers, often have favourite games which are far from the most well known titles. Anyone who happens to enjoy these, could end up buying their NES replacement and ending up shit out of luck with their old games from the closet. Not to mention the numerous graphic and sound issues with most games.

That's my biggest beef with the company really. The mindset that it's ok to screw the average consumer. You can be sure that the box will have no disclaimer or warning regarding compatibility, which has always been the thing which irked me the most.

[studvicious]

Nintendo's patent on +-shaped D-pads has to have expired by now, as is the case with many of their other Famicom and NES patents.

I really doubt that they would let that patent expire as they are still using that same design (tweaking it here and there) in every controller they've made to date.

[Jagasian]

Nintendo's patent on +-shaped D-pads has to have expired by now, as is the case with many of their other Famicom and NES patents.

I really doubt that they would let that patent expire as they are still using that same design (tweaking it here and there) in every controller they've made to date.

That wouldn't let them extend the patent on the original +-d-pad. Anyway, Nintendo's modern D-pad found on the Gamecube (very small), GBASP (chicklets), and DS (chicklets) is a piece of crap compared to their SNES era +-d-pad. I think that they brought their good D-pad back for the GB micro, but I haven't tested it myself yet. The original GBA had a nice D-pad, as did the N64. Everybody, including Nintendo, has started making absolutely terrible D-pads.

[RCM]

Nintendo's patent on +-shaped D-pads has to have expired by now, as is the case with many of their other Famicom and NES patents.

I really doubt that they would let that patent expire as they are still using that same design (tweaking it here and there) in every controller they've made to date.

That wouldn't let them extend the patent on the original +-d-pad. Anyway, Nintendo's modern D-pad found on the Gamecube (very small), GBASP (chicklets), and DS (chicklets) is a piece of crap compared to their SNES era +-d-pad. I think that they brought their good D-pad back for the GB micro, but I haven't tested it myself yet. The original GBA had a nice D-pad, as did the N64. Everybody, including Nintendo, has started making absolutely terrible D-pads.

If you look at the original GBA and Gamecube they have the same exact D-Pad. I think it changed on the SP. Are you 100% on the patent expiring on the NES and D-Pad? I'll check b/c i'm interested.

[s1lence]

The patent on the D-Pad has not expired. Other companies have either stolen or paid for the rights to use that form. This is not to say that there are d-pads that are Close to the nintendo pad.

[Jagasian]

The patent on the D-Pad has not expired. Other companies have either stolen or paid for the rights to use that form. This is not to say that there are d-pads that are Close to the nintendo pad.

When did Nintendo get the patent on their wonderful NES/SNES D-pad? I figured it was during the 8-bit generation or earlier (cuz they used it on their Game-n-Watch portables), which would mean that it should have expired by now.

[Teknik_SE-R]

agreed. it should have expired long ago IF the patent was awarded at the time they started producing it. Alot of the time this is not the case.

ever wonder what "patent pending" labels on products was for? it was to state that a patent was applied for, but legal verification that it qualifies for a patent must be established before the patent is awarded. until then, the design is open game. After patent is awarded, noone can legally sell it without permission from the patent holder. sometimes a lengthy legal battle can occur, or research of the originality or validity of patent status takes a couple years for one reason or another.

when a company releases an original design that hasn't been patented or has a patent pending, they are sticking their knecks out, because until a patent is finalized, other manufacturers can reverse engineer the item and sell it as much as they please.

granted most companies don't release an item until they are sure that the patent application is close to completion, so that there is now way a rival company can disect, design, and manufacture the product before the patent is complete.

Nintendo might not have recieved a patent until a few years after applying, and they might not have initially applied for a patent. they might have applied for it years after the design was released

[TheRedEye]

It's easy to say that this thing is meant for the casual, nostalgic gamer who just wants to play Mario 2 or whatever, but then I remember that there's a miniature price guide included with the thing, and I just get confused again. Who, exactly, is the NEX's target audience?

I never understood the "casual" gamer that supposedly has a closetfull of NES games.

"Casual" gamers don't go thrifting or scour yard sales for old games.

When I say "casual gamers" I don't mean grandma who downloaded Bejweled, I mean college kids who frequent thrift stores and remember the NES.

[joshnickerson]

http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000433070444/

[Mangar]

That's a rather class move by Lik-Sang.

They could have been like every other retailer and sold a shitty product to the unknowing. Instead they took the high road, and put reputation and it's customers before the almighty dollar. Rare and worthy of respect.

[poloplayr]

I love Lik-Sang. Truly a company of gamers serving the gaming community.

[Jagasian]

It looks like Lik-sang also allowed for a negative review to be posted:
http://www.lik-sang.com/info.php?category=182&products_id=7407

Note that the first review gave a perfect score and claimed that the USA Castlevania III works perfectly on the NEX. I'd love to know who that person was, as they blatently lied.

[Leroy]

It looks like Lik-sang also allowed for a negative review to be posted:
http://www.lik-sang.com/info.php?category=182&products_id=7407

Note that the first review gave a perfect score and claimed that the USA Castlevania III works perfectly on the NEX. I'd love to know who that person was, as they blatently lied.
The positive "review" reads like a sales pitch. They don't even try to hide it.

[drwily008]

I think that their console shell is built to a high quality. I didn't realise the incompatibility issues with the machine though.

Truthfully, I think that their wireless controllers suck...but I would still consider buying a wired system.

I can vouch for one end that there are no more than 3 actual people working for Messiah and one of them is a female.

I also think that what they are trying to accomplish (initially at least) is admirable and they probably are just not that educated to the electronics aspect of the machine (i.e. - not knowing what an NOAC was) not blatantly lying to us.

Just my 2 cents.

[Lord Contaminous]

Hahah owned by Lik Sang.

[TurboGenesis]

agreed. it should have expired long ago IF the patent was awarded at the time they started producing it. Alot of the time this is not the case.

ever wonder what "patent pending" labels on products was for? it was to state that a patent was applied for, but legal verification that it qualifies for a patent must be established before the patent is awarded. until then, the design is open game. After patent is awarded, noone can legally sell it without permission from the patent holder. sometimes a lengthy legal battle can occur, or research of the originality or validity of patent status takes a couple years for one reason or another.

when a company releases an original design that hasn't been patented or has a patent pending, they are sticking their knecks out, because until a patent is finalized, other manufacturers can reverse engineer the item and sell it as much as they please.

granted most companies don't release an item until they are sure that the patent application is close to completion, so that there is now way a rival company can disect, design, and manufacture the product before the patent is complete.

Nintendo might not have recieved a patent until a few years after applying, and they might not have initially applied for a patent. they might have applied for it years after the design was released

How was Sega able to use a + d-pad on the Dreamcast controller? I've knowen that only Nintendo related products had a + but then comes along the Dreamcast and it contains a + d-pad. Did Sega pay royalties to its competitor, did they "steal" it, or had the patent run out?

[Teknik_SE-R]

afaik, sega would have had to pay royalties, or risk a large lawsuit.

I just read the patent... the patent also only applies to a conected directional design with a central fulcrum to pivot off of, and those conductive rubber digital buttons. analog buttons or d-pads that don't incorporate the fulcrum design could be interpreted as a different design.

BTW the patent was filed 18 AUG 1987, so it expires in a year

OH my main reason for reviving this is becasue they told me that they were going to address the issues the NEX had (vid shift, sound, compatibility, etc.) and re-release it sometime first quarter 2006. So I emailed them asking them whats up and I got this:


Thanks for contacting Messiah!

We have been addressing these issues. The Video Shift has been fixed on the current units we are shipping. In terms of the color and sound we are still working on this. Right now there is no confirmed ETA on these fixes.

Thanks for supporting Messiah.
Messiah Support Staff

[Sothy]

Will it support RGB?

[Oniudra]

I have come across the two different Generation NEX models, and I was wondering, aside from some package and casing changes, is there anything really different about the two?

[n8littlefield]

I'm going to eat some/many of my words on the NEX at this point...I just finished this article...

http://www.runjumpshoot.com/content/11/1/NES-Console-Buyer's-Guide.html

I can personally verify at this point that the NEX is definately a different NOAC than the cheaper clones. I can say if I was still actively NES collecting, I'd buy one.

[mills]

the NEX that I won a while back is broken now. The NES cartridge slot will not read games any more. My guess is that something borke in there due to all the pressure that must be applied to insert/remove games.

[GarrettCRW]

I can personally verify at this point that the NEX is definately a different NOAC than the cheaper clones. I can say if I was still actively NES collecting, I'd buy one.

It may be different, but I wouldn't exactly consider it better, or even living up to the hype that pissed off Jagasian so much.

[n8littlefield]

I still disagree with their prelaunch hype. However, their website is now completely honest about the situation and it is definately better than the Yobo. The glitching in games like RCR and Zelda seems to be eliminated. I completely agree with Jagasian on the mishandling of a launch that was aimed too squarely at hardcore gamers, but it really is the best clone I've seen in build quality and in compatibility.

[Vinnysdad]

the NEX that I won a while back is broken now. The NES cartridge slot will not read games any more. My guess is that something borke in there due to all the pressure that must be applied to insert/remove games.



No kidding. I have to pick up the whole thing and hold it sideways just so I can litterally rip the game out of the thing. It has some kind of death grip on them. Also the sound sucks.

[bangtango]

the NEX that I won a while back is broken now. The NES cartridge slot will not read games any more. My guess is that something borke in there due to all the pressure that must be applied to insert/remove games.

I had the exact same problem with one I received as a gift. I listed it for sale on the forums here and managed to recoup part of the cost. I did list it as non-working and someone picked it up for a fair price. Whether or not the buyer ever got it fixed, I don't know. Regardless of the outcome, he at least got the original packaging, the hook-ups, the mini DP guide and everything else for his trouble :)

[playmessiah]

the NEX that I won a while back is broken now. The NES cartridge slot will not read games any more. My guess is that something borke in there due to all the pressure that must be applied to insert/remove games.

Hello Mills,

Please contact our customer support via phone or email. Messiah Entertainment offers a Lifetime warranty on the Generation NEX and will fix the unit at no cost to you other than shipping.

Brad

[playmessiah]

No kidding. I have to pick up the whole thing and hold it sideways just so I can litterally rip the game out of the thing. It has some kind of death grip on them. Also the sound sucks.

Hello Vinnysdad,

There is something wrong if the cartridge is that tight there is something wrong. How long have you had the Generation NEX? Was it purchased recently?

Please Contact our customer service department because there may be an easy fix for this.

Brad

[Mattiekrome]

Messiah Entertainment offers a Lifetime warranty on the Generation NEX and will fix the unit at no cost to you other than shipping.

Brad

:rocker:

Great to know! Hopefully I'll never have to use it, but since the arrival my daughter back in June, It has become merely a paperweight... Hard to break it if you cant play it ROFL