Messiah's NEX System: Summary of Claims and Facts [Archive]

View Full Version : Messiah's NEX System: Summary of Claims and Facts

Pages : [1] 2

Jagasian

11-06-2005, 04:17 PM

Several people on these forums have carried out uncalled for personal attacks against me, for simply giving technical critique of and inquiry about Messiah's NEX system, which is one of the newest unlicensed Famicom/NES clones typically called "Famiclones". Many of these people have a vested interest in NEX sales. I would like to put this issue to rest, by simply quoting past posts by Messiah and by others. Most of the quotes are taken from these threads:
http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=61589
http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=72550

It all started when Messiah made a press release about their upcoming Famiclone, the Generation NEX. Due to irregularities in their press release and their FAQ, such as claiming compatibility with the NES and Neo Fami (another Famiclone), claiming the compatibility testing with games known to not work with NOAC based clones was still on-going, claims that S-video support is not possible because the games don't support it, and due to the fact that basically all previous Famiclones, especially the Neo Fami, made use of an inferior microchip known as the NES-on-a-chip (NOAC), questions arose with regards to the NEX's use of a cheap, yet incompatible and faulty NOAC.

To the end gamer, this matters because it means that some games won't even run on a NOAC based system, other games will have additional glitches, missing sound effects, and basically all games will have inaccurate colors, and audio. Since I, like many others, was a gamer born and bread on the NES, I took interest in the topic. Here are highlights of what followed. I think the facts speak for themselves, but since the threads are extremely long, I will just post a summary of the high points:

8-bit Software Galore: Enjoy all your favorite NES and Japanese Famicom games using one console. Generation NEX has two direct connecting cartridge slots eliminating the problems that occurred with dirty connectors and cartridges.

Rumors have it that the NEX is based on the Neofami NES-on-a-chip, which has inaccurate audio, video, and lacks support for some games. It was mentioned earlier in the thread. Also, note that the platform support lists "Neofami". This gives further support for the rumor that it uses the inaccurate NES-on-a-chip. I must say that the case looks great, but if it is less accurate than a software emulator... I will make do with my official NES toaster and some cleaning supplies.

Yeah - Has anybody gotten one and done some cart testing?

I have. It is NOT an NES on a chip, though. It has increased colors and is custom made. Not like the Yobo Clone.

Note that the "Yobo Clone" is another name for the Neo Fami, and typically refers to the USA version of the Neo Fami.

Actually, for years there have been NES-on-a-chips with extended graphics modes. It seems as if the NEX is using such a NOAC, and I am still skeptical that Messiah has designed a new NOAC. In the end, we will need extensive compatibility testing of every NES/Famicom game and accessory to see just how compatible the system is.

I am willing to be proven wrong, but only after extensive unbiased testing is done.

Jagasian, for the third time, this is NOT an NES on a chip. It is a custom made board, and is UNLIKE the other clones out there.

Also, Jagasian, I stated in the post that I have tested the unit thoroughly.

I have no doubt that the printed circuit board is custom, as anybody can make a custom PCB. It is inexpensive and easy to do so. But the I still think that it uses a premade NES-on-a-chip integrated circuit. Messiah themselves have stated that their clone has extended graphics modes. What they described sounds familiar to a pre-existing NES-on-a-chip. Please post pictures of the insides of the NEX, if you want to disprove me. It shouldn't be hard to do, if you are right.

Also, if you are tested the unit thoroughly, then please let us know what games and peripherials have compatibility issues. Again, this shouldn't be hard to do at all, if you have already done the testing.

Jagasian, I'm not in the mood to have to deal with some as patronizing or bluntly arrogant as yourself at this moment.

Hello Pot, my name is Kettle. Thanks for pointing out that I am black. By the way, when it turns out that the NEX uses a pre-existing NOAC, will you admit that you were wrong? I am eagerly anticipating the day.

Anyway, if it turns out to be using a pre-existing NOAC, then I'd say that Messiah lied, and I deserve an apology.

Note that no apology has been given. But there have been more personal attacks.

Can we then assume that you will be offering a formal apology if it turns out not to be an existing NOAC?

I spoke to a Messiah rep about doing an interview for Hardcore Gamer Magazine that would have shed some light on the compatibility issue, as well as features, connections, etc. She fed me a press release and that was it, so I didn't even mention their product in the mag. I don't need them to speculate; I can do that myself.

Melf, you must have done that a LONG time ago because I'm the only one who has been doing PR Requests for months, and last I checked, I am not female.

It was in early June, for the issue of HGM that came out this week. I ended up having to devote the entire feature to the Atari Flashback games, but I did do a write up of the console for GotNext.

Note that DreamTR works for NubyTech, the distributor of the NEX system. He also handles "some operations of Messiah". He made the compatibility list for the NEX which resides on Messiah's site, which was released after the NEX shipped. Earlier I had stated that he works for Messiah, as that is how it appeared. However, I have been corrected and the issue is more complicated. While he does do work for Messiah, he is technically an employee of Messiah's distributor, NubyTech.

Either way, it is easy to see that the claims by those financially involved with sales of the NEX, were that the system was not NOAC based, and that it would have improved compatibility. As it turns out, it is based on a NOAC and has worse compatibility than other Famiclones.

This thread proves, that on forums, people will argue anything.

Concerns of NEX compatiblity with the Konami Sound Chip et. al. has been raised on other forums as well. Let me correct your assumption (joke or not) that 10 people own Akumajo Densetsu in North America. Moreover, a cavalier attudute towards this concern on this site is absurd. After all, this is a site where people take gaming a bit more seriously than the mass market (refreshingly enough).

I appreciate Jagasian's posts since he has raised an issue (compatibility) that would likely not have been raised or brought to the level of attention it has without it.

The imfamous NES-on-a-chips (NOACs) do not support S-video as they were designed before it became a common standard. This is another sign that the NEX is not based on a new custom cloning of the NES, but instead is based on one of the few common NOACs. These NOACs basically spit out composite video directly from the NES-on-a-chip. Think about it. If you are going to go through all of the trouble of designing a new clone of the NES circuitry, then why not design it to just spit out an RGB signal? Then you can add circuitry for converting the raw RGB signal into the popular video signal for where you are selling the system: RCA composite, S-video, component, etc.

Jagasian, you just don't stop.

My point was that this is yet more evidence that it uses a pre-existing NOAC. People claimed that there is no evidence that it uses a NOAC, and I repeatidly told them to read the FAQ. Messiah could be upfront about it, but they aren't.

Jagasian: No one cares right now, though.

It is indeed too bad that the NEX is not more compatible than some cheaper clones. I'm disappointed too. However, I see no evidence of blatant lies abouy compatibility prior to release. I've asked for links to to such claims of dishonesty, but so far, I get no proof. Just many many many posts like the one above.

There are many other posts that I did not include. Some were supportive of my whistle-blowing, but as is typically the case, most people don't like a whistle blower. But if you want to see all of those other posts, many attacking me, consult the first two links that I posted above. Now for the facts as we know them now that we have NEX systems in our hands, for our own, critical, unbiased testing and review.

Reviews of the NEX
http://www.vintagecomputing.com/index.php/archives/6
http://mister-neil.livejournal.com/196815.html
http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=5956871&publicUserId=5379721
http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=698

The last reviewer (review linked below) changed his mind after hooking up a real NES to the same TV as his NEX, to do a side-by-side comparison.

To add an update here, I hooked up my old toaster NES. The colors are clearer and the sound is much stronger and more correct. I'm not sure what I was smoking trying to remember the comparisons without doing a head-to-head. The NEX is just not worth the dough. As a $25 expenditure it would be kinda neat, maybe worth $35 with the wireless, but as a NES it kinda sucks.
http://episteme.arstechnica.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/39309975/m/570005806731

Note that the NES Dev reviews open up the system and show that it in fact does use a NOAC.

See detailed pictures and reverse-engineered schematics of the NEX here. (http://www.retrousb.com/NEX/NEX.html) Most of the stuff is for interfacing to power, video out, audio out, controller ports, two cart slots, or the built-in wireless. But the true heart of it all, the thing that makes or breaks the system, is that little NES-on-a-chip (NOAC):

http://img494.imageshack.us/img494/9121/nexnoac5wf.jpg

How can you tell that it is a NOAC? All NOAC's have the same pin-out, so you can trace the printed circuit board's connections to their destination (cart slot pins, controller ports, video out, and audio out). There is the sweet undeniable proof.

So it was claimed that the NEX did not use a NOAC, but the facts state otherwise.

lie (lī) pronunciation
n.

1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.

Note that Messiah's website has been updated several times since the NEX was first announced. Similarly, claims of compatibility with the Neo Fami and other misleading information has now been removed, but some of it still seems to remain. I am sure others can back me up on this, since I currently lack archived copies of their original press releases and web pages. One of them was in word document format, and specifically mentioned "Neo Fami" compatibility. I also remember such a claim on their web site.

Cmtz

11-06-2005, 04:29 PM

Does anyone know what Mario DDR got on EGM?

Leo_A

11-06-2005, 04:33 PM

Well I've been on your side since the beginning, aren't you taking this a bit far? DP and AtariAge are well versed on your opinions of this and many agree with you that they haven't handled this with the honesty that they should've.

Your many post and a friend's reviews of the system saved me some money so it's appreciated however (I was this close to ordering a bundle from J2Games that included the SMB series since a friend is borrowing my copies). I still hope it sells well though because even though it's technically flawed, it still appears to be well constructed, which gives me some hope for that wireless Atari 2600 stick that is advertised at their site, which won't happen I assume unless this current product is a success. I'd love a INTV, 5200. 7800, and a Colecovision controller as well, but I presume that the market for those might not be able to satisfy their requirements unlike the 2600, NES, SNES, and Genesis markets.

http://www.playmessiah.com/products/thecoming.htm

Jagasian

11-06-2005, 04:43 PM

Well I've been on your side since the beginning, aren't you taking this a bit far?

Possibly, but don't I have the right to be the least bit angry that people are still claiming that nobody lied? Don't I have a right to be the least bit angry that I was personally attacked for bring this up to begin with? I too am interested in new retro-gaming software and hardware. I was one of the first people to buy Messiah's wireless SNES controller, and the only thing I don't like about it is its D-pad. If Messiah's next product is worth buying and it is a product for a retro system I care about (2600, NES, SNES), then I'll be first in line to buy it and I will post positive remarks about said product as frequently and annoyingly as I have posted with regards to the NEX.

I am sorry that this is really annoying, but even to this day there are people posting personal attacks against me, or they are posting claims that there was no wrong doing, etc. As long as those posts continue, my posts will continue.

98PaceCar

11-06-2005, 04:55 PM

If you don't like the system or the way it works, don't buy it. It's as simple as that. I can't imagine that the people that own the games that have compatibility issues don't own at least a top loader that should play them just fine. For most people, this is a great way to have both a nes and famicom setup at the same time without having to resort to the extra wiring required by having 2 systems.

If that's not good enough for you, don't buy it. I don't like the way Ford does business but I would never consider a personal crusade against them. You've stated your case till the horse has been beaten fully into the ground. Don't support Messiah and don't buy a NEX. It's not that hard. If other people want to buy a NEX, that's perfectly fine. I can't think of any way this affects you personally, unless you are refurbing toasters and selling them on epay for a huge markup.

And just to clear up any preconcieved notions, I have absolutely no ties to Messiah, Nintendo, the people making any of the Famiclones, or anybody else remotely related to any gaming hardware. I'm a gamer that understands that when you are dealing with retro hardware, there is NO perfect solution for everybody's problems. Hell, I've got toasters that don't play all of the games I have. That's just the way it is.

Jagasian

11-06-2005, 05:03 PM

portnoyd

11-06-2005, 05:05 PM

http://schwillz.com/stuff/total/pics/owl3isee.jpg

Gamereviewgod

11-06-2005, 06:26 PM

I'm just going to sit back and enjoy the ugliness this is likely going to degrade into...

Jorpho

11-06-2005, 08:27 PM

I can't imagine that the people that own the games that have compatibility issues don't own at least a top loader that should play them just fine. For most people, this is a great way to have both a nes and famicom setup at the same time without having to resort to the extra wiring required by having 2 systems.

But even the top loader is far from perfect, what with the dot crawl and lack of composite video.

I thought it was kind of novel that someone was finally making a really good NES clone that would have the best features and none of the drawbacks of the other varieties of NES that have been released, but I guess that hasn't happened yet.

DreamTR

11-06-2005, 08:33 PM

Jagasian: I am not personally attacking you, I never did.

I "quoted" what was said to me in regards to the NOAC issue. I asked, that was what I was told. I reported it. Obviously the answer was false after you opened it up I suppose, but in NO WAY did Messiah directly deceive anyone about this system.

You need to understand something, you are going on this tireless crusade to get your point across. Yes it has incompatibility issues. I did not say it did not. I never claimed it was 100% compatible.

Another thing, the reason for the delay on posting a compatibility list was because there were MORE games at one time that were not compatible, there was no need to post games that were NOT going to be on the FINAL list.

Now, another thing you need to understand, I DO NOT WORK for Messiah, I work for NubyTech, and I handle some operations aspects of Messiah and some sales THROUGH NubyTech. I have answered every question as best as I could through the past 6 months from the contact form on Playmessiah.com. There is no place where you will find a better customer response quickly from a game related business.

Simple answer is, don't buy it if you don't like it. Nothing wrong with that. I have said on more than one occasion to people that I use an NES toaster style system for NES carts. I use the NEX for Famicom stuff because it's quick and efficient when I want to check out a game.

I had a feeling there would be issues with this in the hardcore community, but it's more geared towards a casual gamer. If you knew anything about development and how expensive it would be to create a 100% accurate NES system without infringing on the sound chip or any other copyrights, I would LOVE to see it.

It's true that a lot of times in the classic gaming community, people eat their own, and this is another case of a company trying to support the community, and someone like yourself is basically saying it's one big lie. If I didn't think you were wrong about this, I would not even bother to post, but I have to say something about the level of ridiculousness I am seeing from someone who just despises the system to no end.

I did not make these promises ro assumptions. I asked, and I gave answers. If they were misconceiving to you, so be it. You can't please everyone, but I am 100% certain that Messiah is dedicated to pleasing the consumer. If they decided to keep everyone's money and not deliver, then you could say something about this, but as of right now, you have been beating a dead horse for months.

classicb

11-06-2005, 08:36 PM

I heard it had compatibility issues with Bio Force Ape

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c216/paulB812/de44798f.jpg

GizmoGC

11-06-2005, 08:52 PM

I don't want to dig through the entire thread right now, but does this also play Famicom games?

98PaceCar

11-06-2005, 09:13 PM

If other people want to buy a NEX, that's perfectly fine. I can't think of any way this affects you personally, unless you are refurbing toasters and selling them on epay for a huge markup.

I've never stated that a fully informed person should not buy the NEX. All that I have done is post truthful information to counteract the misinformation, as well as my recommendation to look elsewhere for the end-all-be-all NES.

As long as misinformation continues to be posted with regards to the NEX, I will continue to post. In addition, I see no problem with collecting together, all in one thread, information about the NEX system, as well as previous claims about the system, to compare and contrast the claims with the reality. This helps somebody interested in the system to properly inform themselves about it. Is there anything wrong with that?

I haven't followed all of the marketing lit and what not from Messiah (I doubt anybody has), but I've personally never seen anything that promised 100% compatibility with the toaster. All of the lit I've seen has in at least a round about way stated that it's not completely compatible with all games. Now, maybe they haven't come out and said that games xx and yy don't work, but what company does? Did Sony provide a list of PS1 games that don't work on the PS2? What about Microsoft and the 360? Other than some first party titles, I haven't seen any confirmation on these either. Even the 7800 wasn't completely compatible with all 2600 games.

I do agree that having a consolidated location for the information regarding compatibility is a good thing (for both informed and non informed gamers), but at least from my perspective the way you've handled it has damaged your credibility regarding the subject. You may have started out to just inform people, but it's degenerated into what appears to be a personal crusade on your part. I don't think that's been your intention at any point, but that's how it looks from the outside. Maybe now is the time to take a step back and relax on the subject a bit. If the NEX is truly as bad a product as you've made it out to be, the market will self correct and it will fail. There's nothing to be gained by constantly saying the same things over and over.

This isn't meant to be a flame in any way, but man, let it go.

Kamino

11-06-2005, 09:15 PM

:deadhorse: :deadhorse:

boatofcar

11-06-2005, 09:37 PM

Messiah specifically said it was not a NOAC?

It is a NOAC?

Sounds like a lie to me.

Cmtz

11-06-2005, 09:39 PM

Does anyone know what Mario DDR got on EGM?

Anyone? :/

Jibbajaba

11-07-2005, 02:17 AM

Does anyone know what Mario DDR got on EGM?

Anyone? :/

According to 1up.com, they gave it a 5.0.

Chris

badinsults

11-07-2005, 02:34 AM

JJNova

11-07-2005, 02:38 AM

Double Post

Double Post

JJNova

11-07-2005, 02:38 AM

Why does this post exist when there is already a thread dealing with the Generation NEX where these pointless "arguments" are thrown about. We get that you hate this product. Welcome to the free world, where you are not forced to buy anything you don't want to. I don't know why you are going on this crusade, Jagasian. Are you going to change the world for the better by explaining something that everyone knows? Is your flagrant flame war that you have spread across several forums going to please anyone but yourself? It is people like you that bring down quality forums such as this one. If you want to be a troll, you should go with the rest of your kind at IGN or gamefaqs.

I didn't know any of this until you posted the link to this thread to show your rant against Jagasian (sp?). Thanks though, because I was under the impression that it wasn't an NES on a chip.

Thanks for the valuable information also Jagasian (sp?). It's definitely changed my mind about the NEX.

lendelin

11-07-2005, 02:45 AM

Jagasian, I applaud you. Already back in September I thought your criticism of the NEX was knowledgeable, well reasoned, valid, to the point, rational, very informative, and incredibly helpful making a buying decision.

About this follow-up thread: Again, I think it is justified. Sometimes people react to rational criticism in an irrational way, defensive, apologetic, with misinformation, and countered with personal attacks. I think it is not the worst idea to remind some posters of it.

Simple answer is, don't buy it if you don't like it. Nothing wrong with that. I have said on more than one occasion to people that I use an NES toaster style system for NES carts. I use the NEX for Famicom stuff because it's quick and efficient when I want to check out a game.

I had a feeling there would be issues with this in the hardcore community, but it's more geared towards a casual gamer. If you knew anything about development and how expensive it would be to create a 100% accurate NES system without infringing on the sound chip or any other copyrights, I would LOVE to see it.

It's true that a lot of times in the classic gaming community, people eat their own, and this is another case of a company trying to support the community, and someone like yourself is basically saying it's one big lie. If I didn't think you were wrong about this, I would not even bother to post, but I have to say something about the level of ridiculousness I am seeing from someone who just despises the system to no end.

I did not make these promises ro assumptions. I asked, and I gave answers. If they were misconceiving to you, so be it. You can't please everyone, but I am 100% certain that Messiah is dedicated to pleasing the consumer. If they decided to keep everyone's money and not deliver, then you could say something about this, but as of right now, you have been beating a dead horse for months.

DreamTR, this is not a matter of liking or disliking a system, or 'buy it or not' which is a general way of weaseling out of taking responsibility for misinformation. With your logic criticism of a product would never be possible. It is a matter of false statements based on facts, false impressions and the quality of a product.

You stated it is NOT a NOAC used in the system, it turned out to be one. It is as simple as that. There were high hopes that the NEX is better than the common Famiclome, it is not based on fact one. It turns out that the system has severe probs with graphics and sound, and Jagasians skepticism and careful evaluation hit the nail on the head. It is as simple as that.

You indeed were "asked, and you gave answers," but the wrong ones. You called Jagasian "arrogant," but it turns out that neither was he the arrogant nor the misinformed one of you two.

Please don't turn tables and make of Jagasian a "crusader" with a 'ridiculous hatred' for the system, nor try to make him an enemy of the hardcore retro-gaming community; because this would be hypocrisy at its finest, wouldn't it?

Damaramu

11-07-2005, 03:05 AM

I also thank Jagasian for bringing this up.

I took the time to read the reviews on the NEX and I even waded through the pages of technical discussions for the NEX and I gotta say I'm glad I waited on buying this machine.

I was almost fooled by Messiah's advertising. I feel bad for the people who shelled out the $60+ for a less than stellar NES clone. Ah well, maybe if they release a 2.0 ver. of the system. Emphasis on maybe.

lendelin

11-07-2005, 03:47 AM

Why does this post exist when there is already a thread dealing with the Generation NEX where these pointless "arguments" are thrown about. We get that you hate this product. Welcome to the free world, where you are not forced to buy anything you don't want to. I don't know why you are going on this crusade, Jagasian. Are you going to change the world for the better by explaining something that everyone knows? Is your flagrant flame war that you have spread across several forums going to please anyone but yourself? It is people like you that bring down quality forums such as this one.

This is not only ridiculous, it is pure nonsense.

...and for your information, I'm not into emulators or famiclones and got a pretty wrong impression about the quality of the NEX, so not evryone "knew already." Have some mercy with not very knowledgeable guys like me.

BTW, "part of the free world" is not only to buy whatever you want but also to gather information for buying decisions based on criticism everyone is free to express...or do you get your information from the Holy Spirit itself?

If you want to be a troll, you should go with the rest of your kind at IGN or gamefaqs

Thanks for spreading the culture of intolerance and creating outcasts, something all too common at IGN and gamefaqs produced by fanbois.

badinsults

11-07-2005, 04:03 AM

lendelin

11-07-2005, 04:25 AM

I'm sorry, but I still see no reason to create this thread, other than to produce flame wars. All the facts about the Generation NEX are posted in the Generation NEX thread. I can understand that people are upset about it, but I still think that people can be more civil about it. I mean, it is just video games.

I'm very sure it is not intended as a "flame war," nor is it one or will it become one unless someone "flames." (like calling others a troll, to suggest he should go simply away, or accusing someone creating a flame war which doesn't exist by flaming the poster)

I see a very good reason to create this thread. The lesson to be learned is not to overreact, listening and responding to reasoning, never be patronizing or arrogant as a substitute for reason, and not to indulge in self-righteousness when actually an apology is called for.

Niku-Sama

11-07-2005, 04:27 AM

do you have any pictures of a more modern board with the fixes that are made in your pic on the printed circuit board?

Stark

11-07-2005, 05:24 AM

Thank you Jagasian for being so thorough in you investigation. It saved many some hard earned money on a poorly made (but pretty looking....ohhh ahhhh worthless) Fami-clone.

DreamTR- you were wrong and way too sure of yourself in the beginning and now you still have to post excuses for your attacks on Jagasian. Shame on you.

studvicious

11-07-2005, 05:31 AM

Messiah specifically said it was not a NOAC?

It is a NOAC?

Sounds like a lie to me.

This is pretty much all that needs to be said really.

phreak97

11-07-2005, 06:57 AM

whoever said 'it's just video games' is talking crap, it's not just games we're talking about here, it's value for money, and when you bring in the money factor, the fact that it is just a video game console is irrelevant.
eg. you buy yourself a donkey kong tournament cart for $500, but when it comes, it's just a regular old donkey kong cart, but hey, it's just video games, so who cares. apparently, by that logic, it doesnt matter if the information given out to the potential buyers is a pile of horseshit.

i myself was very tempted to get a nex, i thought "a clone, but not a noac pos? this might actually be worth my while" but then it comes out and it is definately a nes on a chip, and whats more, they didnt even wire it correctly. theres a pin called /A13 which is half the reason many games dont work. instead of connecting it to the cartridge slot, they connected it right to ground. there is at least one game which holds this line at 5 volts, meaning as soon as you put that game in, you've connected 5v and ground.. how fun.
it doesnt look like they even tried.
this is in every aspect a typical famiclone.
"The console seems to be good quality, and sturdy"
my yobo is plenty sturdy, and fami to nes adaptors are cheap enough. definately less than the markup the fami slot gives the nex.
"it has wireless"
great, youre connected to a noac, with no wires! so much better..

i dont believe the crap about not posting a compatability list due to there being games which didnt work but now do, the compatability list is way to similar to that of the neo fami for it to be a completely original list. that and the only real difference between a nex and a regular clone is the extra cart slot and the wireless.

believe it or not, the nex is not the first clone to have both cart slots, i saw one a while back in a giant list of clones.

it is not as simple as 'if you dont like it, dont buy it'
you cant know if you like it untill you have bought it, so the next best thing is using the information given to you to make a decision on whether or not the product is what you are looking for. kinda hard when there are untruths and half truths in the mix.

when the facts are given out initially, people take them and run, you cant plan a product, release information, then take it back later, it just doesnt go back, it's like trying to put the water back in the tap once you realize you just filled your cup with hot water. and even if you pour it down the drain, your glass will still be warm, you cant avoid that. theres still something there which isnt right.
whether they meant it or not, their organisation is not good, they advertised a product before they know how it would turn out.
has anyone thought maybe they planned for it not to be a noac, but couldnt get it to work for the price? it's more than possible. that isnt their fault. however advertising it as such very much is their fault.

i dont see why theres an argument about this, they quite clearly hyped up about something which didnt end up happening, and made no effort to tell everyone a change was made, they kinda just stopped telling people it wasnt a noac and left people to find out for themselves. there would have been alot less problems if they had said "due to cost efficiency, we have had to scrap plans for a new design, and have had no choice but to use an existing noac".
i have heard of at least one person who has bought a nex and shipped it back the next day due to inferiority. i mean, the picture is meant to be pretty bad on the nex, i dont know why.. even a noac can do better than that.

i apoligise for the disorganised post, i tend to think of things in random order.

i expect that's plenty of fuel for the flames, so lets see what happens:) keep in mind, i do not lie, i am simply working from thinks i have read.

Mangar

11-07-2005, 09:19 AM

Yeah - Has anybody gotten one and done some cart testing?

I have. It is NOT an NES on a chip, though. It has increased colors and is custom made. Not like the Yobo Clone.

Obviously the answer was false after you opened it up I suppose, but in NO WAY did Messiah directly deceive anyone about this system.

Someone lied to someone. Either Messiah directly, or you when you claimed to already have one, did cart testing, and stated as absolute fact that it wasn't a NOAC.

Not sure why it's so hard to simply admit that you were 100% completely wrong, apologize for misleading the public, and move on. By continuing to make lame excuses, you just further add fuel to the fire, and make the rest of us shake our heads with puzzlement. Give Jagasian his due and move on already.

Jagasian

11-07-2005, 09:47 AM

Another telling thing about this, are the glowing news articles and reviews. I said earlier that I will continue to post reviews. Let me first quote some highlights from some suspcious "news" articles published before the NEX's release.

A small Los Angeles company, Messiah Entertainment, has promised to release this week the NEX, a system that plays NES games and even enhances the experience with wireless controllers and the ability to play rare Japan-only Famicom games.
source: http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1511657/2�017/index.jhtml

Rare Japan-only Famicom games? This is what we call "funny hype". Famicom games are neither rare, nor is the ability to play them a big deal, as there have been inexpensive cartridge adapters for 20 years now. Nintendo themselves used Famicom cart adapters in the early NES games. Open up an old cart and see for yourself.

To sum up the Messiah NEX will be sleeker and trouble free, works with all our games, and accessories, dual mono, and plays Japanese ports.
source: http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art36274.asp

Trouble free, works with all our games? Hmm, somehow this writer got misinformed like the rest of us. How would that happen? Another great read are some of the "100% Positive" reviews. Now I am a regular customer of Lik-sang, but I know better than to trust their reviews:

Review by: Lord_Cat BF2! on October 29th, 2005
The Generation NEX arrived at my house today in an unassuming brown cardboard by delivered by FedEx. Upon opening it I was in awe at how small it is.
Packed in a clear plastic casing that holds all of the goods together, it looks awesome. Famicom on top, NES in the front, if you're looking for a replacement for either of these machines, then the Gen NEX is the way to go.
Built in 2.4 wireless controller support, and dual mono/stereo audio complete the package.
I've throwed almost every game I have at it, including an oddball 110 in 1 nes cartridge, and it worked even better in the NEX than it did in my toploader NES.
Small, Sleek and Powerful, the Generation NEX WILL fulfill your 8-bit gaming needs for years to come.
It also seems to be really sturdy in construction.
My toploader feels more flimsy than the Gen NEX does.
All of the A/V contacts are plated in gold, and next to the power adapter socket on the back of the console is a sticker that says "Charging Port", and not to remove it unless the Messiah wireless controller manual says to. I assume this means that the NEX can charge up the wireless controllers that are available from Messiah as well.
IF you spent many afternoons after school playing NES and Famicom, then you're going to love the NEX!
If I could give it 10 stars, I would!
I don't have CastleVania III Famicom, but the american release functions perfectly.

source: http://www.lik-sang.com/info.php?category=182&products_id=7407

Note how this glowing review claims that Castlevania III works perfectly on the NEX. That is a flat out lie. It is one of the games that doesn't even run on the NEX. I have submitted my own review, as have others. Funny how none of them are listed. Gamestop, on the other hand, doesn't seem to be willing to list any reviews whatsoever. They might have a policy against listing reviews of products that they don't yet have in stock. Can anybody confirm/deny that?

I also dug up the very first press (http://www.cgexpo.com/pr/pr2k5/pr_messiah_generationnex.doc) release for the Generation NEX. Here is the quote that first made me think that this was just a Neo Fami repackaged:

Duel Cartridge Slots supports NES and NeoFami software

This quote implies that all NES games are intended to run on the system, but the NeoFami part immiediately got me worrying about the fact that it might use a NOAC. A few weeks later, Messiah posted their imfamous FAQ, which was very misleading as it implied that the system was not using a NOAC and would have improved compatibility.

Q: Is the Generation NEX a clone (NOAC) or does it have all of the components of an actual NES inside?
A: NEX is a clone and cannot use the actual NES IC because it is not licensed by Nintendo. (see next)

Q: Does it contain custom ICs, or is it based around the NOAC [NES-on-a-chip] that most "clone" consoles are based around?
A: Our IC is a custom designed IC that is built on the NES algorithm. Every attention to detail has been spent on compatibility.

At the time it was posted, this did not answer my then standing questions. Looking back now, it is obvious how these questions were answered: in a way to mislead, but not to be a flat out lie. This kind of double-speak set off more warning signs for me, but other people were convinced (as demonstrated by the linked news articles and old threads about the NEX) by those question and answers, that the NEX was not going to be based on a NOAC. The truth is that all evidence points to the fact that the system uses a pre-existing NOAC, but it doesn't even have compatibility on-par with other Famiclones because the NOAC isn't even wired up correctly.

Even more telling is how some people continue to attack anybody who attempts to point out the truth, in hopes to drown them out with personal attacks. I think we can let the truth speak for itself. Here is another review, but one which does not appear to be an out-right fake:
http://www.gridcycle.com/?p=59

Note that the reviewer mentions 3 other problems with the system:
1. screen flicker
2. screen is shifted to the right about an inch (other reviews have confirmed this)
3. poor build quality

swlovinist

11-07-2005, 11:13 AM

I plan on getting my NEX soon, as I was one of the early and eager people to get it. While I am not going to get in the war between words, THIS WHOLE THING IS BAD FOR THIS GAMING COMMUNITY. I know that DP does not have control, but when the CGE 2K5 is supposed to showcase the NEX, and it turns out to be this...it could really turn future wouldbe gamers off from future events and/or this forum. I personally feel like NEX was claiming imcompatable issues AFTER they took alot of preorders, and that is not right clear and simple. I want the dam thing to replace my NES, not be another Famiclone that has issues. While I praise them for trying, I feel that they decieved the hardcore gaming community that would otherwise not give a shit about thier product. WE ALL SHOULD BE STERN WITH THESE INITIAL REVIEWS. In general, it makes any company, website, magazine look like an ass when the product comes out and it does not deliver what it initially was supposed to do. I praise the harsh critics, and I too feel very, very dissapointed.

n8littlefield

11-07-2005, 11:17 AM

You know what really makes me angry is the attitude of Messiah that seems to be that this product isn't made for a "hardcore" audience and instead meant for a more casual gamer. They made their initial money off wireless controllers for classic systems- who do they think bought those? Then, they offer preorders - who do they think preordered? They made their money off the hardcore classic gamer and then proceeded to crap on them.

I personally applaud Jag as even when people were like "drop it" and "you're wrong" he continued to point out that things smelled fishy and didn't back down.

Melf

11-07-2005, 11:38 AM

omnedon

11-07-2005, 11:52 AM

Sigh.

I've tried to be civil, and share my take on the situation. I've typed so much, there is no point in typing anymore.

All I need for proof for me, that Jagasion's fervour is inexplicably HOT, is that he's lumped me in as an 'attacker' of him personally.

I'm quoted in there as one of his 'attackers' and the quote doesn't attack him at all. Jagasian, you seem to think a less heated response to the NEX's shortcomings is somehow a personal attack on you.

IMO, your credibility as a clone expert, and critical voice against the community's own efforts (the Generation NEX), peaked about 2 weeks ago, and about 100 posts ago.

I refuse to re-type an repost all of my points about business PR, peoples assumptions, and the difficulties of a small operations attempts at bringing a novel concept to market. Good or bad, I know they did their best, and now it's time for people to vote with their money.

This thread saddens me. This community eats it's own young. :(

n8littlefield

11-07-2005, 12:04 PM

Sigh.

This thread saddens me. This community eats it's own young. :(

You keep saying that the community turns on its own and eats its own young, but isn't it Messiah that really did that? They took money from this community to make a system that really would be a system much more suitable to a casual gamer. I don't have the hardcore anger that Jag seems to have, but seriously, the only people I've heard stand up for the NEX are the people trying to sell it.

Melf

11-07-2005, 12:08 PM

Cmosfm

11-07-2005, 12:17 PM

Does anyone know what Mario DDR got on EGM?

Anyone? :/

According to 1up.com, they gave it a 5.0.

Chris

OUCH! Wonder why it got so low? Guess I'll have to wait to pick it up on a price drop.

omnedon

11-07-2005, 01:42 PM

You keep saying that the community turns on its own and eats its own young, but isn't it Messiah that really did that? They took money from this community to make a system that really would be a system much more suitable to a casual gamer.

I just realized something. many of you screaming the loudest are not pre-order customers correct? n8littlefield? Jagasian LOL ?

Now, I am not privy to all pre-order sales numbers, nor am I at liberty to disclose the preorder numbers I am aware of. What I do know is that the number of pre order customers is nowhere near enough to come close to, "taking money from the community to finance a system". From the numbers I'm aware of, that's laughable on the face of it.

Perhaps it's this knowledge that I posess, that many of you do not, that is part of this.

Let me say, if this was some sort of grand scam, as some lof you keep repeating ad nauseum, it is one of the worst scams ever. Scam,s are supposed to make gobs of money.

:roll:

n8littlefield

11-07-2005, 01:58 PM

If we're reading too much into it, then why is it then that every single review of the system that I have seen (at least those with hands-on experience) have been so incredibly negative? Why is it the only people coming to Messiah's defense seem to be people selling the system?

I don't think it's a conspiracy, I just think it's a company who screwed over it's primary audience. I planned on purchasing an NEX, but worse compatibility than my Yobo? How do you possibly defend this? How can you say that's appropriate?

Oh, and I don't mean just the preorder money funded this, I mean that I would argue that 90% of Messiah's income comes from hardcore classic gamers - their wireless controllers are obviously aimed at this audience.

RCM

11-07-2005, 02:09 PM

omnedon

11-07-2005, 02:09 PM

I just think it's a company who screwed over it's primary audience.

Hmm. I run OSG. www.oldschoolgamer.ca . One look at that site, and I'd be willing to bet you would assume my primary source of income is the classic gaming community. But you would be dead wrong. The hardcore scene is less than 8% of OSG's revenues. The lion's share is game stores and rent to own chains busted Xboxes and PS2's. An endless parade of them.

You do not know how Messiah makes money, if it makes money, and who it may or may not make money from. You assume much, and base heated responses on it.

I planned on purchasing an NEX, but worse compatibility than my Yobo? How do you possibly defend this? How can you say that's appropriate?

I do not defend this. I too am disappointed, perhaps moreso than you as I'm a reseller boyo. :roll: However, as a businessman, I guess I am just more sensitive to compromises made in the manufacture and development of an ambitious console.

Stones are easy to throw, and the biggest stone throwers did not even buy a console. Frank debate is fine! Critical reviews? Great!

White hot foaming at the mouth multi forum multi threaded vendetta is more like what this feels like IMO. It borders on spamming. WHY THE HEAT?

If I was trying to quash debate I would stop bumping threads like this. Jeeezus.

syd

11-07-2005, 02:17 PM

Thanks Jagasian for posting about this, I was really interested in the compatibility of this thing. I was thinking about getting one, but I wanted to know the real deal on it before I forked over around $70 for it.

BTW, I can back up Jagasian for his knowledge of clone systems, flash carts, etc. He's definitely no beginner. This guy has always posted a lot of informing stuff on tototek and other boards. :D

n8littlefield

11-07-2005, 02:21 PM

I'm not vengeful towards them, my anger isn't as strong as Jag's (primarily, I think because Jag seems to have issue w/ all famiclones, something I do not). In fact, when I have $$ after the holidays, their NES controllers are pretty high on my purchase list.

My issue is simply that I planned on purchasing one of these and they have royally screwed it up. Whether or not the press preceding the release blatently lied or not - it at least was misleading to declare it would play all your favorite games. I didn't preorder for financial reasons - but did plan on a Spring purchase, something that obviously won't happen now. It was an ambitious plan, but you have to admit that using a cheap NOAC was a huge mistake. It's like building a beatiful car and then throwing a lawn mower engine in it...

As a business man, it can't be easy to say "this one's more expensive, runs less games than the cheap ones, but hey, isn't it pretty?"

I don't know all of Messiah's business, however as an outsider, their website sells items that you could argue cater to a primarily educated classic gamer, so it is very likely that that is who preordered them. It really feels similar to the Flashback 1, but that people want us to cut more slack because it is a smaller company doing it.

omnedon

11-07-2005, 02:28 PM

Then do not buy one.

Pre-order customers simply cannot by their very nature, be fully informed.

I've preordered an Xbox 360, and nobody really knows exactly what they are getting.

It's really simple.

Remind me to never try anything outside the box, or generate a new product for this community. Not only can one never please everyone, but unless you do please everyone, expect to have your name dragged through the mud with a concerted effort by a few. I am not referring to unfavourable reviews, but to numerous heated threads, pushed primarialy by one or two people.

I am disgusted, and out.

n8littlefield

11-07-2005, 02:43 PM

How much you want to bet that the casual gamer that buys this doesn't care less about the compatibility issues. If you look at the potential buyers for this thing - if it does go to retail, that is - the hardcore gamers are really a small percentage.

Or doesn't anyone wonder why all the famiclones out there have the same problems that never get fixed?

It's funny but I think there's just a double standard involved here. I think when we buy a normal clone system, like the Yobo for example, we don't expect perfection because we know it's a knockoff product, we know if there are instructions they will be in mixed English, and we just expect it's not going to run perfectly. You expect cheap controllers and poor quality plastic.

With the NEX, there was actual pre-release press, and well packaged materials, and real instructions - I think that all of that combined to make some of us expect more than a Famiclone. Probably a combination of our high expectations and Messiah's PR caused us to question combatibility on the NEX more than the older NOAC systems.

swlovinist

11-07-2005, 04:23 PM

I am disgusted too with where this debate is going, although anyone who is not financially connected to the product is saying the same thing...The NEX sucks and has not delivered on its promise, but launched a product that was inferior to its claim. It poor business practices, and I can assure you that in the end, anyone connected to the product will feel its downfall. I dont hate anyone. I dont hate messiah. I dont hate OSG. What I do hate is irresponsible business practices and lack of accountibility. Insted of making excuses for a product that HAS NOT DELIVERED, I would challenge Messiah and others financially related to release an apology to all people who spent $60.00 on something only to find out days before recieving the product that the system is imcompatable with many games. That in itself is bullshit. That is poor business planning, marketing, and public relations. I dont like being decieved, nor do I take like being taken advantage of. People around here know I am an honest guy and very mild tempered. This pisses me off :angry:

Jagasian

11-07-2005, 04:32 PM

The posts of mine that you included do nothing to back up your claims. In fact, what you say there is completely wrong. The representative that I initially spoke to was female and wasn't DreamTR. He doesn't work for Messiah and never said to me that he did. All of his emails are sigged "Nubytech".

Please change what you said there or remove the quotes.

I never implied that DreamTR did an interview with you, however, his posts show him talking to you as a representitive of the NEX gaming system. I was pointing out that he works for Messiah. While he might technically be listed as being an employee of Nubytech, he works for Messiah in the sense that Nubytech is the distributor for Messiah, DreamTR was representing them, he had early access to the system, and he also created the compatibility list that is on Messiah's web site. Just because his tax forms aren't signed by Messiah, it does not mean that he wasn't working for them.

Can anybody else here add to or edit the compatibility list on Messiah's site? Of course not. Why is that? Because he works for Messiah and most of the rest of us do not.

The point is this. It is possible to lie, not directly, but by being misleading, spreading misinformation, and allowing misinformation to continue to spread. Many people were mislead, and when people tried to point out the truth, their concerns were burried in personal attacks and misinformation. Even after the NEX is released and the facts became undeniable, we now have people spinning things to make it seem like there was no wrong doing.

Anyway, you can check and see that I have updated the side note in the parent post, as requested.

I also realize that is it easier to sell a lemon to less technically inclined consumers, and I am sure that the NEX will sell because there will be plenty of people that are not well-informed about the defects with the system. This in no way makes it right, and I would claim that it is wrong to sell casual gamers a lemon.

It hurts them and it hurts the memory of the NES. People will no longer remember the games as they truely are, but instead will remember the crappy Famiclone and emulation recreations of them. While the graphics and sound are dated, these Famiclones make the games look and sound worse than they do on a real system. Hence the NES and its games are defamed. No die-hard NES fan can be OK with that.

Melf

11-07-2005, 06:09 PM

Thanks for the edit. :)

Teknik_SE-R

11-07-2005, 11:09 PM

<insert lame movie reference here>
flame on!!!!!!

thanks for posting all of those reviews. I too found that review on lik-sang both hilariously and obviously rigged, or else that guy doesn't know what is going on. How many people can attest to CVIII not playing? anyone that knows this Lord_Cat BF2 (if he even exists) needs to get him on this forum so we can ask him how he got it to work.

two of the reviews JAG listed I thought were more unbiased than the others, and definitely more fair. They state that it is well built, can use NES perphs, and plays most games at an acceptable level. They state the problems with it, and that it is a mojor downfall, but in ther opinion, it is as good as any clone. well, that's good enough for me. (after everything, I decided not to get a refund) If a more compatible version comes out, I will probably buy one of those too!

Some might say "just get a toaster for $30" or "get a yobo for $20 cheaper" and these may be more logical, but I'm up for giving the NEX a shot. I didn't need a clone anyway. I already have a toaster and toploader. I am just up for collecting, and I plan on getting a yobo too.

For those that are looking for a direct replacement, I would say, "keep dreaming and in the meantime, get a toaster"

All in all, I Still feel Messiah didn't handle the incompatability issue well at all, and am disappointed that the NEX didn't fulfill all of the hype that was built around it. BUT It doesn't mean its the equivalent of a piece of dog crap with a cart connector attached to it, and quite frankly, that is what most of the reviews, and dp and atariage forums make it sound like.

all bitterness and hype aside, I am sure it is a decent attempt at cloning the NES.

I plan on posting my own (as unbiased as possible) review when i get the system. I will have the compatibility list, my TopLoader, and my toaster by my side for comparison to test the feeble 50+ cart collection i have.

lets pray for another (BETTER!) iteration in the near future

badinsults

11-07-2005, 11:30 PM

I hope you guys realize that the NES support is nothing more than a Trojan horse. Why would the NEX support stereo sound when there are no stereo NES games? Why whould the NEX support 16 colors rather than 4? Quite frankly, I think the Generation NEX is intended to be a stand alone console that will eventually have its own games, but in order to invest in game making, they needed some flow of money. That is why it was made into a Famiclone. Again, as I mentioned in the other thread, this is not a device that is to replace the NES, and is not for people who demand 100% compatibility. This is for people who want a nifty device that has wireless controllers, will probably have new NES-style games made for it, and happens to play most NES games without much problems. Messiah has claimed from the beginning that they want to make games that take advantage of the capablities of the system, and I hope that they release a development kit soon that that it will happen.

I have no vested interest in the NEX. I don't even own a single NES cart. But anyone who seriously believed that the NEX would have perfect compatibility were pretty naive. It is a Trojan horse.

MR.TI994A

11-07-2005, 11:39 PM

Stones are easy to throw, and the biggest stone throwers did not even buy a console.

I don't see how this relevant. So if I didn't work for Enron, I can't comment on their business practices?

No, I am not comparing Messiah to Enron. My point is that people have opinions, and this is the place to post them. If not, let's shut this whole thing down and go our own merry way. You don't have to own the system to comment on its shortcomings which have been publicly well documented. Your comment seems to me like nothing more than a feeble attempt to cut-off discussion of the system's flaws. Seriously, the whole "if you don't like it don't buy it" argument is downright lame. I for one am happy there have been threads like this and the other one. This site had been advertising the Messiah for some time now, and I was strongly considering getting one. I am glad all of this has been brought to my attention, and not left up to me find it out on my own. We need more discussions like these.

Here I got one. If you don't like this thread, don't respond to it. Same logic, right? :hmm:

Jagasian

11-07-2005, 11:55 PM

i myself was very tempted to get a nex, i thought "a clone, but not a noac pos? this might actually be worth my while" but then it comes out and it is definitely a nes on a chip, and whats more, they didnt even wire it correctly. theres a pin called /A13 which is half the reason many games dont work. instead of connecting it to the cartridge slot, they connected it right to ground. there is at least one game which holds this line at 5 volts, meaning as soon as you put that game in, you've connected 5v and ground.

Aside from compatibility issues, what problems could this cause? Could this possibly damage the NEX or the game cartridge itself? Is it a fire hazard?

smokehouse

11-08-2005, 07:17 AM

I�ve been reading through this thread and have tried to take a neutral stance to everything. Jagasian is right and well informed. It seems the reason why he is constantly repeating himself is because other false statements have been made time and time again. I too expected the NEX to be something more than a coming NES clone. This was the way it was marketed; this was the way it was originally described. This is false advertising. If the chipsets in the NEX are nothing more than a cheap-o NOAC, Messiah should state that. The problems with the unit are too many to ignore.

Another thing brought up quite a few times was the fact that it is being sold to the �casual� gamer. The NES is how old? How many �casual� gamers still play it? This entire thought process des not make sense. How many casual gamers go looking for old NES carts? They�re too busy playing cookie cutter titles on their PS2 or Xbox. The causal gamer is also not going to know Messiah even exists. This to me is irrelevant.

The flat fact is that the Nex was marketed as another NES system, plain and simple. I�m no fool and I have been following this thing since it�s birth and this is how I understood it to be. It was falsely marketed and no they�re backpedaling. I feel sorry for all the people who made preorders BEFORE all this crap came out of the woodwork. Hopefully Messiah will learn from this and make a �2.0�

Thanks Jagasian for all the info, it is appreciated.

Melf

11-08-2005, 11:07 AM

n8littlefield

11-08-2005, 11:21 AM

Another thing brought up quite a few times was the fact that it is being sold to the �casual� gamer. The NES is how old? How many �casual� gamers still play it? This entire thought process des not make sense. How many casual gamers go looking for old NES carts? They�re too busy playing cookie cutter titles on their PS2 or Xbox. The causal gamer is also not going to know Messiah even exists. This to me is irrelevant.

The same amount of casual gamers that buy the 400 million Atari and Genesis plug-'n-play systems that have been released lately. These things have much more mainstream appeal than hardcore, which is why they sell so well.

I'm not sure - without built-in games I think the audience is much more limited than the plug n play systems. I mean, if someone buys one, they then have to hunt down games which is getting tougher and tougher. If Messiah could have put even like 20 games built-in it may have been a big help to their sales.

I think there's a big difference to a mainstream gamer in picking up a 10 game plug n play for $20 and paying $60 for a system alone. For that price you could get a used Cube or (almost) a new GBASP!

Jagasian

11-08-2005, 12:35 PM

If we are talking about casual gamers, then yes, the system has to have games built-in, or it must be sold along-side working cartridges. The majority of retailers these days do not sell NES carts, and it is also hard to make sure that the carts are in good enough condition to work well for a casual gamer.

There are Famiclones being sold in shopping malls around the USA, which do include many built-in games. Of course, these Famiclones are violating copyright law, but the casual gamer is not aware of this. Therefore to the casual gamer, they can buy a $20 Famiclone that comes with built-in games, 2 controllers, and a lightgun, or they can buy a $60 NEX that comes with no games, only 1 controller, and no lightgun.

The original selling point of the NEX was that it would be a high-quality, highly compatible, custom clone, not just another Famiclone. However, since it turns out that it is just another Famiclone, it has to compete against other Famiclones, which are less expensive, have built-in games, and better compatibility.

Amos

11-08-2005, 12:50 PM

I still don't see any hard evidence that the NEX uses the same chip as any previous Famiclone. All I see is a picture of a black blob onto which somebody has Photoshopped the letters "NOAC".

If it�s true that the list of games that are incompatible with the NEX is similar to the list of games that are incompatible with the Yobo or any other Famiclone, then that evidence is circumstantial at best. It makes sense to me that there is something unusual about the way those specific games were programmed and/or manufactured, and that in trying to make them work properly, the Messiah team ran into the same obstacles that were encountered by the folks who created the other Famiclones. Can anyone identify a specific Famiclone that behaves exactly the same way as the NEX, with the exact problems playing the exact same games?

Not even even a toaster NES is guaranteed to work with all NES games. Nintendo released many different revisions of the NES hardware in order to make it incompatible with unlicensed games.

If it�s true that the NEX chip has the same pinouts as previous NOACs, then that evidence is also circumstantial. I can think of several reasons why it would be beneficial for Messiah or any other developer to intentionally use the same pinouts when creating a new NES-compatible chip. For starters, it would be easier to test the chip�s functionality during the development process because you wouldn�t have to design a custom circuit board to feed the chip power, hook up controller inputs and examine the A/V output; you could simply use the circuit board from an existing Famiclone. Also, if you were talented enough to design a chip that had greater compatibility than the existing NOACs, you could make a lot of money by selling your chip to the manufacturers of the existing Famiclones, who could use it in their own hardware without having to retool the current design of their circuit boards.

It strikes me as potentially libelous for people to continually start new threads for no obvious reason other than to discourage others from buying a specific product. Plus, I can�t believe no one has mentioned the fact that the Digital Press logo appears on the NEX packaging, and that the NEX manual includes the complete Digital Press NES price guide/rarity list. To continually slam the NEX and compare its makers to �the Anti-Christ� on DP�s own message boards is not only somewhat disrespectful, it�s also indirectly causing harm to the good Digital Press name.

EricRyan34

11-08-2005, 01:02 PM

all of this talk about the NEX lately makes me glad that I didnt pre-order one and just stuck with my good ole Yobo FC Console :D

Ed Oscuro

11-08-2005, 01:08 PM

I still don't see any hard evidence that the NEX uses the same chip as any previous Famiclone. All I see is a picture of a black blob onto which somebody has Photoshopped the letters "NOAC".
This was discussed in detail at the NESdev Forums. It is indeed a NES-On-A-Chip, and anybody protesting to the contrary is simply uninformed or being dishonest.

Not even even a toaster NES is guaranteed to work with all NES games. Nintendo released many different revisions of the NES hardware in order to make it incompatible with unlicensed games.
They were, sadly, within their rights to do that at the time. Controversial? Of course, but these were not licensed titles and the thinking is that they had no reason to allow their production. Possibly flawed, but this is indeed a dead and buried issue.

To continually slam the NEX and compare its makers to �the Anti-Christ� on DP�s own message boards is not only somewhat disrespectful, it�s also indirectly causing harm to the good Digital Press name.
Give me a break. I address this in great detail elsewhere: what's causing harm to the good DP name are the actions of those who continue to defend this garbage. After all these reviews are in - you're not lazy, go find them, they've already been linked - it's evident that anybody defending the NEX at this point either hasn't read the reviews or hasn't use a NEX to any deal, and cannot be counted on to give reliable advice to their "fellow" classic gamers...fellow Forumers, anyway.

Melf

11-08-2005, 01:23 PM

Jagasian

11-08-2005, 02:11 PM

I still don't see any hard evidence that the NEX uses the same chip as any previous Famiclone. All I see is a picture of a black blob onto which somebody has Photoshopped the letters "NOAC".

The labelling was done so that people knew what each chip was. If you want to know more about how the guys at NES Dev can tell that it is a NOAC, then post there and ask them. There are a few NOACs sold out of Asia, and one of them has the same extended graphics modes as the NEX's NOAC, the exact same pin-out as the NEX's NOAC, and the same incompatibilities. The probability that all of these things would accidentally end up being the same is highly unlikely.

If it�s true that the list of games that are incompatible with the NEX is similar to the list of games that are incompatible with the Yobo or any other Famiclone, then that evidence is circumstantial at best. It makes sense to me that there is something unusual about the way those specific games were programmed and/or manufactured, and that in trying to make them work properly, the Messiah team ran into the same obstacles that were encountered by the folks who created the other Famiclones. Can anyone identify a specific Famiclone that behaves exactly the same way as the NEX, with the exact problems playing the exact same games?

Like I said, it is highly unlikely that Messiah would accidentally design a NOAC that is observably identical to a pre-existing NOAC. You are really grasping at straws here. Furthermore, the exact compatibility will vary due to the way Messiah has wired the NOAC up in the NEX. The wiring is incorrect, which actually causes it to be less compatible than other Famiclones.

It strikes me as potentially libelous for people to continually start new threads for no obvious reason other than to discourage others from buying a specific product.
...
To continually slam the NEX and compare its makers to �the Anti-Christ� on DP�s own message boards is not only somewhat disrespectful, it�s also indirectly causing harm to the good Digital Press name.

What causes harm is to try to pull a bait-n-switch on your own community. What is disrespectful is to personally attack anybody that challenges the misinformation. Finally, Digital Press's name holds its respect simply because the forum administrators allow for the free, open, and unhindered discussion that is taking place. While Digital Press is affiliated with Messiah, they are taking the high road by remaining a neutral party on this issue. They could easily censor all of this, but the fact that they do not censor the truth means that their name is as good as before, if not better.

Teknik_SE-R

11-08-2005, 02:38 PM

yes a plug and play is easier, but is limited to the games it has built in

the "7 games included" consoles look incredibly crappier than even the yobo and cost the same at a brick and mortar store (in my state anyway).

the professional packaging, no engrish or asian fonts on the box, the pretty console design... It all says "better" to the casual gamer (hell it says better to me too), regardless of compatibility issues, which, by the way if you haven't heard, ALL CLONES HAVE ISSUES, AND THEY AREN"T COMPLETE PIECES OF SH!T.THEY HAVE THEIR PURPOSE. LOOK AT HOW MANY PEOPLE THAT COMPLAIN ABOUT THEM OWN AND USE THEM This is one point that I haven't heard voiced as much as it needs to be

From an outsiders view: compare the NEX to a yobo (and even a toaster) at a local shop...

-in my town a yobo is 49.99
-a toaster alone is $20, is 12+years old, and looks like it was dropped off a roof, and brand new these things were a pain in the ass. What are the chances this thing is gonna work now?
-a better looking NEX costs $10 more than the yobo...If i was naive enough to buy a console at a store, I'd go for the NEX

They are, in whole, more convenient than a yobo or even a toaster...There's the selling point.

On another note...arguments against the fact that hardcore gamers havent been the foundation of support for this company are immediately shot down by the fact that, as Amos pointed out, the DP logo is right on the F@#&ing box!!!! they give DP credit for supporting them!!!!

we may be small and in no way provide high volume sales necessary to run a business, but we are the foundation of, not only small companies, but the entire gaming industry. If we don't like something, it gets voiced. just look at all the blog entries shooting this thing down... references (from the original blog entry) point to the DP site regarding incompatibilities, and they make it sound like the worst clone attempt ever.

I don't think that it accurately represents the communities opinion of the system at all either. all of this angst towards Messiahs poor PR move gives the NEX a worse name than it deserves. and i DO think it is degrading to DP in the manner that we appear to be flogging MEssiah incessantly over that fact.

In fact, I'd say that even the "nay-sayers" would agree that the NEX is simply another clone with a few cool new features that make it nicer to use, and is a little more digestable for the general public.

Are the extra features worth the $10 price point over another clone? that's up to the consumer to decide.

Is it a NES replacement? not for everybody, but to the casual gamer, arguably yes.

should one buy one of these instead of a toaster/toploader? again that's up to the consumer. One can decide what is worth his/her money.

another topic...having the DP logo on the box?
-makes us look bad for endorsing an "on-par" console-you decide (i say no)

-makes us look bad cuz we are unconciously beating a product with our logo down further than it deserves-most definitely. even if the logo wasn't on the box, the community's "apparent" opinioin of the product doesn't look good from the outside world. hands down

I am not saying that anyone intended to beat the NEX down to a pulp. not even Jag did. In fact I think that his voice was one of the most unbiased, just contless arguments agianst his, causing him to defend his points, and random "this console sux" comments from everyone have portrayed the opinion of the community to be "this is the biggest piece of SH!T ever, Don buy it"

BTW, I am glad that we have the opportunity to inform each other about things like this.

I never saw anywhere that messiah swapped claims that the console was intended of rhardcore gamers OR the casual gamer. DreamTR DID, however, voice his opinion (not MESSIAH's or Nubytech's) that that it was for casual gamers. How in the hell would it make any money if it didn't sell to the masses? I know that if it worked perfectly to "please the hardcore gamer" it would sell even better to the masses, I'm not a dummy. but they never indicated that it was intended to PLEASE EVERYONE. I didn't see that in the press release anyway.

They made an effort, it came up short. they were nebulous/ over zealous on ther responses to legit questions, people were disappointed, the whole thing got blown out of proportion. THE END

I hope that Messiah doesn't give up on creating a perfect clone, or isn't completely turned away from the DP community, and the wounds of both DP and Messiah will heal

n8littlefield

11-08-2005, 03:09 PM

I'm sorry, but your arguments on pricing off a bit. If you are willing to order the Gen NEX online, than you shouldn't be comparing the prices to the little B&M shops in your area. The going prices for these systems online or in larger stores would be:

Plug n Play systems - $20 - $40 (approx, the only $40 I know of is the FB2)

Yobo - $30 at estarland - less on ebay

Generation NEX - $60

Obviously I didn't include tax/shipping.

That's pretty significant, especially if you consider a major selling point of the NEX, the wireless compatibility will set you back more money to actually get controllers to go with it.

People did beat up on the reputation of Messiah too much - but the safety issue involved with the ground/voltage issue is really cause for alarm.

TheRedEye

11-08-2005, 03:20 PM

So to sum this all up:

Messiah starts off as "classic gamer friendly," puts out some pretty neat products, posts semi-frequently on the Digital Press forums, announces the Generation NEX console, takes preorders, and then disappears.

With no one to represent Messiah against early accusations of a crap product, a distributor who happens to post here and is also not technically inclined posts what he believes to be the truth, that the internals of the Generation NEX are not standard "famiclone" hardware.

Turns out this DISTRIBUTOR, who is not a direct employee of Messiah and probably had nothing to do with the technical development of the product, is proven to be mistaken. The assumptions of many are true, and Generation NEX turns out to be a $10 Famiclone with a $60 price tag. To many, including myself, this is not a major surprise.

So. Answer me this. If DreamTR had just kept quiet and not tried to defend the product with faulty information, would anyone give a shit at this point?

DreamTR

11-08-2005, 03:46 PM

To those of you who are ragging on me for supposedly personally �attacking� Jagasian: Please do not confuse me for others in this forum who have been bugging him left and right about this.

I am defending myself because of the following FACTS:

1. I do NOT work for Messiah. I tested the games for the Generation NEX FAQ, and anyone that purchases the NEX can see my credit in the book as being the �Tester� for the system, nothing else. I work for NubyTech. NubyTech distributing the product does not have anything to do with myself working at NubyTech. If a contractor works for a company that �deals� with Messiah, that does not necessarily mean they work for them.

2. The NOAC issue was INFORMATION given to me. Yes, I look stupid for giving everyone the answer of it NOT being an NOAC, but these are the answers GIVEN to me. What did you expect? I asked for answers, and I provided them to all of you as much as I could. Nothing more, nothing less. If they do not suit what you expected from the hype of the system, that has nothing to do with me.

3. Messiah has a whopping 2 people working there. They did NOT try and deceive anyone in regards to the system. They tried to produce a quality product for the money given, and according to most of you, it did not meet your standards.

As for compatibility, it is precisely the SAME as any other Nintendo clone in terms of compatibility. Nothing more, nothing less. If anyone says there are �so many more games not working�, they are mistaken.

This DOES have the ability to play Famicom games, wireless, nice packaging, rarity manual, etc. Does that constitute purchasing it for $59.99? Maybe? Maybe not.

Also, Jagasian, you are accusing me or someone at Messiah of reviews or supposed incorrect hype? NO one has done such a thing, so you remove that from your conspiracy theories. I do not believe Messiah ever claimed it would have 100% compatibility. If you can find that, please let me know.

Also, that interview is from the President of Messiah, not ME. Please do not take that out of context.

Issue I have is that I am a messenger trying to get information to everyone, it gets taken out of context, and I look like the bad guy full of misinformation, being misquoted among other things.

As was said many times by omnidon, this product is the FIRST run, everything will have issues as being a prototype or early version or whatever. The system was created with the possibility of new software in mind. Hence the reasoning behind some of the nuances many people are having with the system.

If you wanted a 100% accurate representation of the NES, then you use a toaster NES. Simple as that. I read a review where people were complaining about how it�s 2005, how hard could it be to recreate a working, 100% compatible console?

Answer: No one has done it. Not one emulator or clone has 100% accurately represented the NES perfectly. You can dissect that as you will, but there are speed issues, timing issues, sound issues, anything you can imagine exists.

I will apologize to Jagasian for him being right about it being an NOAC after I was told firmly on more than one occasion that it was not, but I am not going to sit back and witness gripes geared in my direction when I was being as open as I could be about the NEX giving everyone information from the source.

Teknik_SE-R

11-08-2005, 03:52 PM

I was comparing store retail to store retail. The NEX WILL be marketed at my local Rhino store. The Yobo IS marketed there too. They don't sell original consoles though (or at least I havent seen any or any perphs for that matter) but my local cd/multimedia trade shop do.

I have never seen a yobo for less than $35 (including shipping as that is what the NEX price includes) on ebay or anywhere else, and until someone gives me a link, that's my stance.

I was taking the stance of just some dude in a store looking to get into the classic gaming craze.

in response to that anonymous (from the red eye?) post, no, probably not. The NEX would have been labelled how I labeled it in my last post, and hype would have died down within a month like every other clone.

Jagasian

11-08-2005, 03:59 PM

If DreamTR had just kept quiet and not tried to defend the product with faulty information, would anyone give a shit at this point?

Why was DreamTR the one making the compatibility list on Messiah's site, and why was he doing interviews for the NEX? His exact relationship with Messiah is still not exactly open. But there is more than just that. Why were the FAQ answers on Messiah's site so misleading? Why wasn't a compatibility list posted earlier? Why did they imply that the system would have improved compatibility over other clones? Why was anybody that brought these things up and demanded answers attacked from the very beginning?

My honest take on it was this:

Messiah wanted to develop the best Fami-NES ever, and to every NES fan, it was a dream come true. No more crappy emulation or famiclones... and no more unreliable 72-pin connectors. The problems started with Messiah's plan to outsource basically all R&D and manufacturing, as paying a guy like kevtris to work out of his apartment is costs more than sweat-shop asian labor. The people on the other end of the world most likely made claims to assure Messiah that they could improve compatibility compared to previous Famiclones, but instead they use a run-of-the-mill NOAC, wire it up poorly, and as the final deadline approaches, Messiah realizes that there are problems, but it is too late.

Meanwhile, there are those that are affiliated with the NEX, Messiah, or its employees. These people, with good intentions in mind, want this thing to succeed. So they go around trying to hype up the system, and they attack anybody that sings a different story... not to be mean, but because they really believed that the NEX would be great. Even when they had early test units, they most likely ignored any issues as problems that would be fixed in the final model.

Then the NEX starts to ship, and people start to notice that the worries expressed by a few before the system's launch were correct: the system has serious issues, from compatibility to dangerous wiring! This results in a backlash against Messiah and everybody that was hyping the NEX. Some of those affiliated with the NEX are in a state of denial and try to downplay the problems, but this only fans the flames.

So that is my impression of what most likely happened. In the end, the poor wiring could be a bigger problem than the NOAC's incompatibilities and glitchy running of games. The second somebody fries a rare game, or has their NEX catch on fire due to the bad wiring... THAT is when the sh*t will really hit the fan.

n8littlefield

11-08-2005, 04:03 PM

As for compatibility, it is precisely the SAME as any other Nintendo clone in terms of compatibility. Nothing more, nothing less. If anyone says there are �so many more games not working�, they are mistaken.

I really don't care about the personal stuff between Messiah and Jag and you and whoever so I won't comment on that part, but just wanted to let you know that is isn't accurate. Check out the nesdev forums, you'll see that due to the NOAC being wired incorrectly the compatibility is actually worse than a standard NOAC.

Teknik - sorry I didn't mean to question your numbers too much - I don't have a store locally that would sell the NEX to know what the retail will be. If things are that price in your area, and it's 10 bucks more for a NEX, then yeah - it would be hard to turn down. I'm just going for myself, where it would be about 2x the price of a Yobo.

DreamTR

11-08-2005, 04:04 PM

Jagasian wrote:
Why was DreamTR the one making the compatibility list on Messiah's site, and why was he doing interviews for the NEX?

Please stop making up things. I DID NOT DO ANY INTERVIEWS FOR THE NEX. I have explained this is my previous post. I also explained why I did the compatibility list. Simply because I own the entire NES library, and Messiah asked me to test the games on the system. Simple as that.

DreamTR

11-08-2005, 04:05 PM

Which other games are not working that are compatible on a Yobo but not on the NEX? I need to know so Messiah can update the FAQ if this is correct.

TheRedEye

11-08-2005, 04:10 PM

in response to that anonymous (from the red eye?) post, no, probably not.

There are no anonymous posts on these forums.

Flack

11-08-2005, 04:35 PM

in response to that anonymous (from the red eye?) post, no, probably not.

There are no anonymous posts on these forums.

I'm sure you know this, but your name is written in black, which makes it disappear on the default forum configuration. Which kind of makes you TheBlackEye, which is better than being the brown one.

Teknik_SE-R

11-08-2005, 05:03 PM

yeah yeah I figured it out, I highlighted where your name would be.

nice response flack

I'm not saying that it is a justifiable $60 purchase, but from the stand point of joe shmoe at the vg store, it doesn't make a big diff

Jibbajaba

11-08-2005, 05:48 PM

Meanwhile, there are those that are affiliated with the NEX, Messiah, or its employees. These people, with good intentions in mind, want this thing to succeed. So they go around trying to hype up the system, and they attack anybody that sings a different story... not to be mean, but because they really believed that the NEX would be great.

I am absolutely guilty of this. When I came back from CGE, a thread was started in the CGE forum about the NEX, and Jagasian marched in there and started bringing up the points that have now been proven true. I argued with him and defended the system because I believed in what Messiah was doing at the time. I was very excited about the system, and I thought it looked really good. I thought that the game that they were using as a demo (1942) looked a little off, and wondered why it was the only game that they seemed to be showing off the NEX with, but I believed what they were saying about the system so I didn't worry about it.

In light of what we have learned about the system since it was launched, I obviously have a different opinion now. This system is the same as other famiclones, simply dressed up to look otherwise.

You guys can go back and forth with eachother until the cows come home about who said what, but the entry that was in the NEX FAQ says it all. Messiah swore that it was not a NOAC, but rather a custom designed IC. We have since learned that this is untrue.

Now the question becomes this. Who is the liar? It's easy to point the finger at Messiah here. I find that very hard to do. After meeting these people I find it very hard to believe that they are trying to be dishonest with the classic gaming community. I believe that Messiah deserves some credit for their previous products, which were obviously aimed squarley at guys like us; wireless NES and SNES controllers, and space-saving NES and SNES AC adpaters.

Is it not possible that it was Messiah who was screwed here? Perhaps they were lied to by whatever firm to whom they "outsourced" the design of the NEX. They may have had an expectation that a custom IC was being designed for them that was unmet.

I would really like to see someone from Messiah come in here and say SOMETHING. Or put out a press release addressing these issues. Up to this point, Messiah has been putting out excellent products, but I feel like the way thhat they are handling this situation right now is jeopardizing their future in this community.

Please stop making up things. I DID NOT DO ANY INTERVIEWS FOR THE NEX. I have explained this is my previous post.

I am not trying to attack you here, but at some point in one of the other NEX threads, you stated that you were doing the PR for the NEX. Now either I can't find it, or you have since edited it, but I remember it quite clearly because I was surprised by it when I saw it. Anyone who goes back and reads the "Messiah delays the NEX AGAIN!!!" thread will see that you are clearly making yourself out to be a representative of the company. "We" is always used instead of "they" when referring to Messiah. I think the fact that you are now trying to separate yourself from them means that you are as surprised as the rest of us by what has been happening here, and you are attempting to bow out while saving some face. Seems to be that you were as duped as the rest of us( being that you were told that the NEX was NOT NOT NOT based on an NOAC. Who exactly told you that?)

The bottom line is that the NEX was being billed as something of higher quality than the average famicone. There is no question that we as a community expected something other than an NOAC-based system, and that expectation was created by the usage of terms like
"custom-designed ICs". It has now come to light that NEX = YOBO + WIRELESS, and people are righfully upset that they feel misled.

Some of you may not understand Jagasian's drive in this crusade, but I do. People were dishonest, and now that it has come to light, no one is willing to step up and accept responsibility. Instead, people are backtracking and claiming that certain things were never expressed or implied when they most certainly were.

I said I wasn't going to get involved in this but I did. My apologies to the mods for doing so. I am not going to post anything else about it.

Chris