Is this considered illegal?

[metalichris]

Playing roms for systems that doesn't sell the games new anymore. Like Snes, Nes, Sega, Genesis, etc. It's not like the companies are still making money off of these games.

[Bleetness]

Yes but people still do it anyway. I gave up on roms a long time ago. I just play my games on the snes when I can :)

[metalichris]

I still play games on my Snes also, but I don't understand why it is illegal to play the roms. I can understand PSX and up, but there aren't any places like Walmart that sales these old games new.

[njiska]

Yes in America, No in the world. It all depends on where you live. I personally don't worry about it.

[Tanis178]

myself i use it as a means of try before you buy, you can't exactly rent or get demos from games older than last gen anymore

[Push Upstairs]

Consider this a "gray area".

Any conversation that sparks a debate on this matter will ultimately tell more about the person than anything else.

[Chronodriftersx]

Playing roms for systems that doesn't sell the games new anymore. Like Snes, Nes, Sega, Genesis, etc. It's not like the companies are still making money off of these games.


Consider this a "gray area".

Any conversation that sparks a debate on this matter will ultimately tell more about the person than anything else.

This is not something that universally IS agreed upon is it so maybe that's the wrong question, since it will get you all types of different answers.

[RCM]

How about this one: If you pirate an import only title is that really piracy? Whatever the game is it wasn't meant for you. So are you really taking away from anyones bottomline? That's the biggest issue when playing ROMs, am I hurting any developers I love? Never in my case.

[badinsults]

There is no grey area. Simply put, playing a rom that you did not create through your own means is illegal. Technically, you can't even download a rom of a game you own of the internet. You have to purchase a copier, and dump the rom yourself. Anyone who says that it isn't illegal is making up crap.

[njiska]

There is no grey area. Simply put, playing a rom that you did not create through your own means is illegal. Technically, you can't even download a rom of a game you own of the internet. You have to purchase a copier, and dump the rom yourself. Anyone who says that it isn't illegal is making up crap.

So bitter Evan, but you forget that things like this vary from country to country based on the laws. I'm not even sure it's illegal here in Canada. Downloading music isn't.

In fact i think ROMs fall under the same rules as other copyrighted material.

Downloading for personal use is not illegal, but knowling distrbuting it is.

[goatdan]

There is no grey area. Simply put, playing a rom that you did not create through your own means is illegal.

That's true. No matter what. And I don't understand anyone who thinks that it is legal in countries that aren't the US. Copyright laws are much more lax in countries that don't have the ability to enforce them, but they still exist just about everywhere. If you purchase a bootleg DVD in China and bring it to the US to sell, it's illegal. It's also illegal to sell it in China, but their enforcement isn't very good.

People that say that piracy doesn't hurt sales are people that usually fall into one of the following categories:

a) are pirates themselves and are justifying to themselves their activity because they wouldn't purchase the games anyway
b) are using it to try out new things to see if they want to buy them

I'll admit that I'm not 100% clean. I have MAME on my PC -- why? Because when I go hunting for new arcade machines, I play a bunch of stuff to make up a list. I haven't had money or space to buy an arcade game for about a year, and I haven't played MAME in that time. When I get money / time again, I know I'll download more stuff (admittedly illegally) and make a list of the games I'd like to get.

I also have a NES emulator on my Pocket PC that has been used almost exclusively to play games I already own... mostly just the Marios, and Earthbound Zero, since I cannot legally obtain that game in a language I understand no matter what I do.

Having said that, do I think that piracy is okay? No. I understand all of the arguments for it, but in the end someone owns that material.

Perhaps it is because I have released games that have been warezed out in the past, but that's just my opinion...


Technically, you can't even download a rom of a game you own of the internet. You have to purchase a copier, and dump the rom yourself.

Hunh? If you are the intellectual copyright holder, and you download a copy of your data offline to use for any purposes, that is NOT illegal. The ROM, image or whatever IS illegal, but since you own it, you can do what you want with it from that point forward. At least, that is how I have been made to understand the law.

Could you clarify why you think this wouldn't be legal? I actually am really interested. If nothing else, PM me about it :)

[goatdan]

So bitter Evan, but you forget that things like this vary from country to country based on the laws. I'm not even sure it's illegal here in Canada. Downloading music isn't.

In fact i think ROMs fall under the same rules as other copyrighted material.

Downloading for personal use is not illegal, but knowling distrbuting it is.

I'm really fascinated -- could you show me this, exactly? It just seems to be completely backwards from everything that I have seen -- and since part of the production of the GOAT Store releases goes through Canada, I'm supposed to be up on this stuff.

To clarify, what you are saying is that you can make a copy of anything you want at any time for free with no problems as long as you are using it for personal use, but if you give it to anyone else that is illegal?

In that case, could you borrow a book from the library, take it to a photocopying place, photocopy the entire thing and return the book to the library as long as you weren't distributing the copies of it?

[njiska]

So bitter Evan, but you forget that things like this vary from country to country based on the laws. I'm not even sure it's illegal here in Canada. Downloading music isn't.

In fact i think ROMs fall under the same rules as other copyrighted material.

Downloading for personal use is not illegal, but knowling distrbuting it is.

I'm really fascinated -- could you show me this, exactly? It just seems to be completely backwards from everything that I have seen -- and since part of the production of the GOAT Store releases goes through Canada, I'm supposed to be up on this stuff.

To clarify, what you are saying is that you can make a copy of anything you want at any time for free with no problems as long as you are using it for personal use, but if you give it to anyone else that is illegal?

In that case, could you borrow a book from the library, take it to a photocopying place, photocopy the entire thing and return the book to the library as long as you weren't distributing the copies of it?

I don't really know the specifics of the laws but i'll check up on it for you. I do know that are laws are based around punishing the distrubtors not the people who use it.

http://news.com.com/2100-1025_3-5121479.html

Here's an article about P2P being ruled legal. Although i will admit the ruling is sketchy outside of Music, but it does set a precident. I don't know if you can apply the same logic to copying a book or game, but i do know it's something that could be used to argue your right to make copies. Basically it all comes down to fair use and Canada defitinely has a different stance on fair use then the US. For instance we refuse to institute laws similar to the DMCA.

[Garry Silljo]

I love how people say "It's not like the companies are still making money off these old games right?!"

Think about all the classic compilations out there. Any ROM you may or may not be downloading may or may not be used in one of these in the future if not already being used as such. Either that or in the case of the classic NES series, the game could always just be rereleased on it's own.

"The company is no longer making money on this" excuse is one of the most used, but one of the least legit, because at any time the company can decide to squeeze a few more dimes on any of their titles, and admit or not, free downloads are a danger to these hypothetical sales.

[yok-dfa]

To clarify, what you are saying is that you can make a copy of anything you want at any time for free with no problems as long as you are using it for personal use, but if you give it to anyone else that is illegal?

In that case, could you borrow a book from the library, take it to a photocopying place, photocopy the entire thing and return the book to the library as long as you weren't distributing the copies of it?

Yes, in many countries this is completely legal. At least in The Netherlands, and i guess that means it's also legal in the entire EU. As long as you copy it for your own personal use you can make as many copies as you want (the only exception being software. For some reason the law makes an exception for that).

[Push Upstairs]

There is no grey area. Simply put, playing a rom that you did not create through your own means is illegal. Technically, you can't even download a rom of a game you own of the internet. You have to purchase a copier, and dump the rom yourself. Anyone who says that it isn't illegal is making up crap.

Huh? So if i were to download a copy of say..."Revenge of Shinobi" and say...take a load of screenshots for use on making, oh I don't know, a custom cover for the game in my collection....I am still at fault?

I downloaded the ROM but i still own a physical copy of the game....so am i a scumball or am i simply "ok" because i do indeed own the game?

[NESaholic]

Yeah true,they even check internet use and so on to prevent it.I only play roms on my pda while travelling,mega great solution for killing time.

[tylerwillis]

Guess we'll all know for sure when the ESA starts bringing lawsuits against us.

I mean you. All you. ;)

[Tanis178]

one of the biggest reasons it's such a grey area is that not all emulation is considered illegal only some, if you use a emulator to play a ps1 disk it's legal, and there are games considered abandoneware because no one has rights to them anymore, so you can't just group all roms together. and although it may change at this point it's legal to make personal backups, that's part of the reason way they can't quite nail down mod-chips here like they can in other countries, i'm assuming it's the same in the states?


"In Canada, "private copying" can sometimes include the copying of commercial materials for private use, including music. This means that, for instance, it's not necessarily illegal to copy and play music you do not own, if it's for personal use. Roughly a year ago, Justice Konrad von Finckenstein of Canadian Federal Court ruled that file sharing is not a crime, likening P2P applications and networks to photocopiers that can be used for infringing and noninfringing use. Currently the definition of "private copying" in Canada is more broad than it is in the US, but it appears that in the future music will be getting some special treatment in Canada."

[gepeto]

I think this is a topic that can go on forever. I believe if you think it outright illegal thats fine.

If you think its okay for have a rom from a defunct co thats fine. The laws on this are so vague and so many loopholes exsist no one can claim them as fact.

The ones that state its illegal and wont budge. Quick question are there any tengen nes games in your collection that bypass the lockout?. If the psx/2 loses the dual shock bid do you toss out your controllers and all dual shock games in the name of rights?

Those that say it is not legal if you made a games after a few years can the games be downloaded and can you live with that.

I make no argument for or against.

Those against I expect the dual shock related items to be chucked after sony loses the lawsuit games and all. Those for it no crying when your intellectual right are infringed on.

Would it be hypocritical for those who bashs rom downloads to keep there dual shock items if sony loses?

[syd]

There is no grey area. Simply put, playing a rom that you did not create through your own means is illegal. Technically, you can't even download a rom of a game you own of the internet. You have to purchase a copier, and dump the rom yourself. Anyone who says that it isn't illegal is making up crap.

So bitter Evan, but you forget that things like this vary from country to country based on the laws. I'm not even sure it's illegal here in Canada. Downloading music isn't.

In fact i think ROMs fall under the same rules as other copyrighted material.

Downloading for personal use is not illegal, but knowling distrbuting it is.

Yeah I'm pretty sure if it is illegal up here, no one really cares about it. Downloading music isn't illegal, but music companies are still going crazy trying to make it illegal here. Companies are too involved in the illegal downloading of music and movies to care about a few ROMs going around.

Besides, who's really going to care about it? Sony's games are all CD based, as are Microsoft's, therefore no ROMs. Sega doesn't seem to care about it at all. So that leaves Nintendo, and if anyone is going to care about the distribution of ROMs, it's them. Luckily, they haven't actually done a whole lot against it yet! :D

[chaoticjelly]

If you lose sleep over people breaking copyright by downloading ROMs thats a bit sad..

Yes, it's "illegal", hands up who HASN'T downloaded a ROM at some point here... not many I'll wager, I downloaded a lot of SNES and Megadrive ROMS in the past, now I own the original games, so I suppose I'm 100% legal, of course not everyone is going to store 800+ games in their closet just to play ROMS..

What I object to is people selling discs with ROMS on them, whether at the backs of magazines (where they show a stupid hand holding some disc that says "ultimate retro compilation megadrive" or some tacky eBay ad W@W R@RE 1000 MEGADRIVE GAMEZZ!!!11o"

I think that ROMS are the reason so many people turned back to retrogaming, I mean theres people without the "technical savvy" to use them, so they buy the original hardware, as well as the people that just love and want the original hardware (most of us), but if someone wants to download Sonic, I dont really have a problem with it and I dont see why anyone else would, sure, SEGA etc are going to carry on releasing "classics" and "mega packs" but I wouldnt buy those anyway and I mean wheres the creativity in that... re-releasing ports of old games.. come on SEGA!

@_@

This whole debate makes me :roll:

[goatdan]

Here's an article about P2P being ruled legal. Although i will admit the ruling is sketchy outside of Music, but it does set a precident. I don't know if you can apply the same logic to copying a book or game, but i do know it's something that could be used to argue your right to make copies. Basically it all comes down to fair use and Canada defitinely has a different stance on fair use then the US.

That's such a grey area, it's incredible. I mean, if it is legal to download but not upload, you can't use most P2P apps anyway since part of the downloading is that it re-uploads the parts you already got as you download it. Very strange.


For instance we refuse to institute laws similar to the DMCA.

Well, that's a very good thing. The DMCA is something that you don't even want to get me started on, as it _literally_ makes it so that a larger company can claim with no basis that a smaller company needs to stop doing something because it is infringing on the larger companies rights, and the smaller company must stop unless it takes the other company to court and PROVES that it is legal to do whatever they are doing.

It makes it so that many, many legal things are now nearly impossible to do. I've discovered more about the DMCA and the bullshit it is the more I've worked on Dreamcast stuff, because while everything that we are doing has been proved 100% legal through prior court cases.


Yes, in many countries this is completely legal. At least in The Netherlands, and i guess that means it's also legal in the entire EU. As long as you copy it for your own personal use you can make as many copies as you want (the only exception being software. For some reason the law makes an exception for that).

Games = Software though.

Again, I think that I have a unique perspective on all of this because I have had things that I had personally done pirated and shared, and it is surprising to say the least. In my opinion, it is illegal, even if you weren't planning on doing it, it can potentially hurt the owner, and since YOU aren't the owner, that's where the argument ends.

[Ulticron]

Donwload the Roms you want, enjoy them, and don't worry about the feds kicking in your door.

[yok-dfa]

Yes, in many countries this is completely legal. At least in The Netherlands, and i guess that means it's also legal in the entire EU. As long as you copy it for your own personal use you can make as many copies as you want (the only exception being software. For some reason the law makes an exception for that).

Games = Software though.
Yes, but you have taken my quote out of context. I was responding to a question about copying a book...

[goatdan]

Yes, in many countries this is completely legal. At least in The Netherlands, and i guess that means it's also legal in the entire EU. As long as you copy it for your own personal use you can make as many copies as you want (the only exception being software. For some reason the law makes an exception for that).

Games = Software though.
Yes, but you have taken my quote out of context. I was responding to a question about copying a book...

No, I understand that. I was using the book example as something that I understood to be illegal everywhere in the context of the larger software conversation we're having. Didn't mean to quote you out of context, just bring my point back into the conversation as best as possible :)

[Whiskers the Wonder Cat]

Not only is it illegal, but you can get cancer as well!

[Captain Wrong]

Like goatdan and evan said, there really is no gray area. Like it or not, if it's not something you created from something you own, it's illegal. I'm not saying I agree with it, but that's the way I understand the law to read.

(Sidenote, I'm suprized I haven't seen mention of the "24 hour" rule. Has that one been finally and permanently cast to the land of urban legend?)

[jajaja]

I dont think you should worry about anything. These systems are out of production long time ago. Even if you play a ROM or buy the game used on Ebay Nintendo or Sega doesnt make a cent.

[njiska]

Here's an article about P2P being ruled legal. Although i will admit the ruling is sketchy outside of Music, but it does set a precident. I don't know if you can apply the same logic to copying a book or game, but i do know it's something that could be used to argue your right to make copies. Basically it all comes down to fair use and Canada defitinely has a different stance on fair use then the US.

That's such a grey area, it's incredible. I mean, if it is legal to download but not upload, you can't use most P2P apps anyway since part of the downloading is that it re-uploads the parts you already got as you download it. Very strange.


Actually Dan it's not a huge gray area because they've pretty much ruled that willful blindness is OK. If your app uploads as part of it's function then it uploads that's not illegal. You have to intentionally be distriubing the material for it to be a crime.

[Garry Silljo]

I dont think you should worry about anything. These systems are out of production long time ago. Even if you play a ROM or buy the game used on Ebay Nintendo or Sega doesnt make a cent.

That simply isn't always true. As I already said, many of these games are being repackaged in compilations and classic NES rereleases. Don't forget plug and play controllers. You say that a Metroid ROM is fine? I'll bet Nintendo disagrees. They are still selling this. Also games are being used as incentives to buy other games. Super Punch Out was used to get people to buy one of the Fight Night games, and Several classic NES games were included in Animal Crossing. All of these properties from dead systems still have cash potential for the creators and/pr licence holders.

[davepesc]

There is no grey area. Simply put, playing a rom that you did not create through your own means is illegal. Technically, you can't even download a rom of a game you own of the internet. You have to purchase a copier, and dump the rom yourself. Anyone who says that it isn't illegal is making up crap.

Couldn't have said it any better, so put me down for a ditto.

[punkoffgirl]

Like goatdan and evan said, there really is no gray area. Like it or not, if it's not something you created from something you own, it's illegal. I'm not saying I agree with it, but that's the way I understand the law to read.

(Sidenote, I'm suprized I haven't seen mention of the "24 hour" rule. Has that one been finally and permanently cast to the land of urban legend?)

Aren't there some ROMs that the programmers have released to the general public?

[njiska]

There is no grey area. Simply put, playing a rom that you did not create through your own means is illegal. Technically, you can't even download a rom of a game you own of the internet. You have to purchase a copier, and dump the rom yourself. Anyone who says that it isn't illegal is making up crap.

Couldn't have said it any better, so put me down for a ditto.

You guys really don't pay attention do you? In the US it's hands down illegal, in Canada and Europe it questionalbe based on the differing copyright laws. The iron grip of the DMCA doesn't extend to the rest of the world.

US rejects Canada's rejection of the DMCA (http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/05/01/2038233&from=rss)

[goatdan]

Actually Dan it's not a huge gray area because they've pretty much ruled that willful blindness is OK. If your app uploads as part of it's function then it uploads that's not illegal. You have to intentionally be distriubing the material for it to be a crime.

I think that it would be hard to argue in court that someone didn't know that they were also uploading the files that they were downloading. The file-sharing programs inform you of this about a million and seven times when you are installing them and when you are using them. Using many of these programs means you are distributing the material, and claiming that "you didn't know that it was distributing anything" would have to show utter incompetence.

If there is a sign that says no parking and you park in front of it, when you get a ticket for parking there if you say that you didn't see the sign, "willful blindness" doesn't work in that case. The same thing could easily be argued in a court of law.

I'm not declaring it one way or the other for sure, but as with just about any copyright law currently in place, it seems as if it has two sides to it, and both of them seem to be correct in some ways.

[njiska]

Actually Dan it's not a huge gray area because they've pretty much ruled that willful blindness is OK. If your app uploads as part of it's function then it uploads that's not illegal. You have to intentionally be distriubing the material for it to be a crime.

I think that it would be hard to argue in court that someone didn't know that they were also uploading the files that they were downloading. The file-sharing programs inform you of this about a million and seven times when you are installing them and when you are using them. Using many of these programs means you are distributing the material, and claiming that "you didn't know that it was distributing anything" would have to show utter incompetence.

If there is a sign that says no parking and you park in front of it, when you get a ticket for parking there if you say that you didn't see the sign, "willful blindness" doesn't work in that case. The same thing could easily be argued in a court of law.

I'm not declaring it one way or the other for sure, but as with just about any copyright law currently in place, it seems as if it has two sides to it, and both of them seem to be correct in some ways.

Believe me people are that inept.

But really what that provision is the people who use systems like BT that require you upload. However it also protects the people who don't bother turning off default file sharing. The big thing is intent. If you're shared directory is being shared by default you didn't intentional make it share it just was.

The idea is to leave the little man alone, but slam the big pirate groups who host their own servers.

[Icarus Moonsight]

Looks like the prospects of moving to Canada have just become much more desireable... **whisper** thier laws make sence LOL

I'd like to know if Canada's music sales have fallen as sharply as they have here in the states... interesting.

I play Rom's on Emu's... but it never keeps me from buying a game... or even better a new compilation release. It lets me get my Jones out for games I've yet to track down, and I also sample games that I've never played/seen/heard-of/knew-existed. I don't keep anything I don't add to my want list or already own. I'm not trying to justify it... just telling what I do. I understand that I am a minority when it comes down to Emu users though. I'm not so concerned with what "they" are doing... I just mind my own. I understand that it's illegal, and I couldn't frankly care less. I have my own ethic/moral code and emulation just doesn't fall into the "darkside" of it. I've done numberous illegal things of variant degrees in my lifetime, yet I've never been called on any of them. I'm not gonna lose any sleep on this one.

[jajaja]

I dont think you should worry about anything. These systems are out of production long time ago. Even if you play a ROM or buy the game used on Ebay Nintendo or Sega doesnt make a cent.

That simply isn't always true. As I already said, many of these games are being repackaged in compilations and classic NES rereleases. Don't forget plug and play controllers. You say that a Metroid ROM is fine? I'll bet Nintendo disagrees. They are still selling this. Also games are being used as incentives to buy other games. Super Punch Out was used to get people to buy one of the Fight Night games, and Several classic NES games were included in Animal Crossing. All of these properties from dead systems still have cash potential for the creators and/pr licence holders.

Nintendo still selling Metroid to NES?? :hmm:
Im not talking about the classic NES games to GBA. Those would be ROMs of their own even if its the same game :)
And what I said is true. If you buy a used NES game on Ebay or download the ROM Nintendo wont make a cent anyway

[Tanis178]

the fact that there is no consensus here is exactly the point and why game roms are still such a grey area, i suspect with nintendo releasing their library via revolutions virtual console things will clear up a bit.

another hot button issue is mame, and the fact that i don't need to explain what mame is, is testament to it's popularity, can a company bring the hammer down on you if you want to play a arcade game that no longer exists? how many of those mame roms come from broken machines and machines with fewer than a dozen survivng the ages.

correct me if i'm wrong but companies only have to support the game or system for a period of time, so what happens then? can they really blame you if you play LoZ on a emu because your battery has run down and the tool bit to open the cartridge is specialized, and you don't want to risk it because the game has sentimental value?

[Damion]

I feel some people take this subject wayyyy to seriously and need to understand that it's going to happen no matter how much they "soap box" about it. Don't get me wrong, I can see the point. But after reading through game forums for a couple of years it tends to all Blend together and frankly it's starting to reach the point of Nausating Fanboy levels.

(thats a rant in general it dosen't reflect any thoughts I may have about posts in this thread as I haven't read them all)


Anyhoo,

Is it illegal? I couldn't tell ya. But I personally have spent tens of thousands of dollars if not hundreds of thousands over my life time and I can't see the harm in having the roms to games I once owned or games I never had the chance to own and never will.

Something I do...do, though is try to always support the companys that made/make the games I enjoy. espically if there still making games. There isn't many oppertunitys for that I know. But I give when it's avaliable. it's the only way it can keep going.

With that said I hope interplay gets back on there feet. I've bought a few of there games more then once and I'd like to see them rise back up.

[Captain Wrong]

Like goatdan and evan said, there really is no gray area. Like it or not, if it's not something you created from something you own, it's illegal. I'm not saying I agree with it, but that's the way I understand the law to read.

(Sidenote, I'm suprized I haven't seen mention of the "24 hour" rule. Has that one been finally and permanently cast to the land of urban legend?)

Aren't there some ROMs that the programmers have released to the general public?

Yeah, there is that. If someone is the rights owner, then they can turn it over to the public domain (ie, the Vectrex catalog.)

I'm still getting a chuckle out of the fact that this discussion keeps coming up. At least in the US, there really isn't a question that unless you are the rights owner, or the rights owner has granted permission, we're talking about illegal activity. This isn't about a bunch of gamers debating it, this isn't something under debate. Try to spin it however you want, it doesn't change what the law says. I don't agree with it, and I really doubt they're going to start going after individual gamers ala the RIAA and Napster users. It doesn't change what the law says though.

[Garry Silljo]

I dont think you should worry about anything. These systems are out of production long time ago. Even if you play a ROM or buy the game used on Ebay Nintendo or Sega doesnt make a cent.

That simply isn't always true. As I already said, many of these games are being repackaged in compilations and classic NES rereleases. Don't forget plug and play controllers. You say that a Metroid ROM is fine? I'll bet Nintendo disagrees. They are still selling this. Also games are being used as incentives to buy other games. Super Punch Out was used to get people to buy one of the Fight Night games, and Several classic NES games were included in Animal Crossing. All of these properties from dead systems still have cash potential for the creators and/pr licence holders.

Nintendo still selling Metroid to NES?? :hmm:
Im not talking about the classic NES games to GBA. Those would be ROMs of their own even if its the same game :)
And what I said is true. If you buy a used NES game on Ebay or download the ROM Nintendo wont make a cent anyway

It doesn't matter if you're not talking about the system be it gameboy, Gamecube, or soon Revolution. That game in any format is their intellectual property and is still being sold. Therefore the ability to have the game for free is a bad thing for them. Buying off ebay may not help them either, but because money is still being exchanged it is less of a problem for them because it would be hoped that before you use those dollars you may think twice and buy one of the newer released formats instead. Money verse money everyone think, whereas free verse money isn't a contest for a lot of people. Collectors are a different breed which makes it harder to understand around here. To the average Joe on the street though, paying for things that are available free is stupid, and that's bad for business. Nintendo Plans on making you pay for that Metroid ROM when revolution hits. Modders no doubt plan on letting you download from your PC and upload into the Revolution free of charge. They really aren't so harmless.

[VG_Maniac]

I mostly just download roms for imports and arcade games. :) I also might download a rom for an NES, SNES, or Genesis game I've never played before, just so I can see if I like it or not...since you can't rent old games anymore.

[TurboGenesis]

I dont think you should worry about anything. These systems are out of production long time ago. Even if you play a ROM or buy the game used on Ebay Nintendo or Sega doesnt make a cent.

That simply isn't always true. As I already said, many of these games are being repackaged in compilations and classic NES rereleases. Don't forget plug and play controllers. You say that a Metroid ROM is fine? I'll bet Nintendo disagrees. They are still selling this. Also games are being used as incentives to buy other games. Super Punch Out was used to get people to buy one of the Fight Night games, and Several classic NES games were included in Animal Crossing. All of these properties from dead systems still have cash potential for the creators and/pr licence holders.

Nintendo still selling Metroid to NES?? :hmm:
Im not talking about the classic NES games to GBA. Those would be ROMs of their own even if its the same game :)
And what I said is true. If you buy a used NES game on Ebay or download the ROM Nintendo wont make a cent anyway

Nintendo is still selling Metroid as in Metroid GBA and an unlockable in Metroid Zero Mission. The emulator is the GBA playing the original Metroid ROM. Plain and simple.

How many people actually bought Metroid Classic edition for the GBA? I didn't as I had unlocked it in Zero Mission, and I already own the original on the NES. And technically I have the rom too. So there, Nintendo (re)releases a game for a newer format and gets dismal sales. Thus why they combat the distribution of emulators and roms.

I have a friend who is a priate and I think it is horrible. He has no intention to ever buy any of the stuff he has roms of and only spends money on mod chips so he can play copies. I refuse to let him copy any of my games as I spend good money for them and I don't feel it is fair that he can pay the price of a blank cd for something I paid big money for(ie Radiant Silvergun, PDS). Sorry off topic here...

[GameDeals.ca]

Instead of debating this topic uninformed. Maybe we should all read the law (in the US) again...

http://www.copyright.gov/1201/2003/index.html

It clearly states that roms are legal if they are for an obsolete systemand no longer commercially available. (Read #3 a few times)

Why do you think they are releasing so many compilations and Nintendo is offering their entire back-catalog? To protect their copyrights by making their entire library commercially available so that they can go after the people that pirate their games.

[Tanis178]

"in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace"

that's still a little too vague for interpretation, one could argue that you can buy a say for example a vic-20 from ebay or some other online site therefore making it part of the commercial marketplace, especially if people are programming and selling new software for these systems

[goatdan]

"in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace"

that's still a little too vague for interpretation, one could argue that you can buy a say for example a vic-20 from ebay or some other online site therefore making it part of the commercial marketplace, especially if people are programming and selling new software for these systems

Precisely. It's already been proven from a different case that "reasonably available in the commercial marketplace" means can you find it to purchase somehow, essentially.

It means that if you have a data storage format -- let's call it Goat Storage for this example. Goat Storage was manufactured in large numbers from 1985-1988, and sold about 250,000 units worldwide. The data it encrypted was stored on a format like CD-roms.

Well, after 20 years, the players have broken down to the point that it is nearly impossible to find one working -- none of the original vendors have them, and you can't even find them on eBay or anything like that. Not working, at least. And the special part that made it work was a laser that was only manufactured at this plant, and it can't be replicated. Nothing else can read the data. It is estimated that of the original 250,000 units sold, less than 5000 are still functioning.

The unit is used to run specialized programs, many of which companies rely on.

Now the unit, according to copyright law, is available to make backups and distribute the data in other ways legally. There is no way to re-make the Goat Storage device. The data is something people are still using. It is now legal to replicate it through emulation.

Emulation, in and of itself, is not illegal by the way. I completely know that. It's the programs that is.

So, unless you're going to argue that you can't find that Super A'Can 32X lookin' thing, I don't think that you can argue that you can't find anything in the marketplace. And just because it costs a lot -- in the case of MAME vs. the "real deal" -- that doesn't mean that it is "acceptable."

[jajaja]

Nintendo is still selling Metroid as in Metroid GBA and an unlockable in Metroid Zero Mission. The emulator is the GBA playing the original Metroid ROM. Plain and simple.

Ye, your right about that. If im right its also for the classical NES series to GBA.
But still, if you want to play the original Metroid for NES you can just buy it on Ebay or download the ROM. Either way Nintendo wont make a cent.

[goatdan]

Ye, your right about that. If im right its also for the classical NES series to GBA.
But still, if you want to play the original Metroid for NES you can just buy it on Ebay or download the ROM. Either way Nintendo wont make a cent.

But, the copy that is sold on eBay Nintendo was already paid for properly. The copy that is a ROM was not paid for in any way.

The GBA ones are a way to play the game on a different platform if you haven't already played it elsewhere. If there is limited availability of the ones that Nintendo already properly profited on, as well as demand for more, then Nintendo does make a cent.

[jajaja]

Ye, your right about that. If im right its also for the classical NES series to GBA.
But still, if you want to play the original Metroid for NES you can just buy it on Ebay or download the ROM. Either way Nintendo wont make a cent.

But, the copy that is sold on eBay Nintendo was already paid for properly. The copy that is a ROM was not paid for in any way.

Exactly :) So it doesnt matter if John Smith owns the copy that he have for sale on Ebay or if you own it. Nintendo have already made the profit for that cartridge.

[Smithy]

Ye, your right about that. If im right its also for the classical NES series to GBA.
But still, if you want to play the original Metroid for NES you can just buy it on Ebay or download the ROM. Either way Nintendo wont make a cent.

But, the copy that is sold on eBay Nintendo was already paid for properly. The copy that is a ROM was not paid for in any way.

Exactly :) So it doesnt matter if John Smith owns the copy that he have for sale on Ebay or if you own it. Nintendo have already made the profit for that cartridge.

I don't remember seeing in the copyright laws any exclusion. You CAN NOT make anything other than a person backup of media that YOU OWN. You CAN NOT download roms for systems that are no longer for sale in the retail marketplace. Copyrights last for 75 years, not until the owner can 'no longer make money from them'. Plus, tons of people sell these items on Ebay, it is not fair to them for the value of these items they are selling to goto because people are 'legally' downloading these items.

Of course, this doesn't mean people don't... feel free to disagree.

[Tanis178]

just to add to that, if you upload a personal copy it voids any rights you have for personal use because you've abused the privilege by distribution

[jajaja]

It might be like that, but who cares? (might sound arrogant, but im not)
Think logical, as I said some times now, even if you download the ROM or buy the cartridge used the company wont make any money. And of course, it isnt illegal to buy used games, but when you do the companies dont make any money on you. So why should it be legal to download old ROMs? (dont have to answer this question, it was just a question you can ask yourself :))

[goatdan]

Exactly :) So it doesnt matter if John Smith owns the copy that he have for sale on Ebay or if you own it. Nintendo have already made the profit for that cartridge.

Did you skip the other half of the argument? The fact that NO ONE paid for the ROM?

If you pay money to purchase a copy of something, that does not give you free reign to do whatever you want with it. I just bought a copy of the new live Green Day CD / DVD tonight. Just because I paid for it doesn't mean that I can make copies and sell them and show the DVD in a movie theater and charge for it. The copyright holder still has rights, but the item itself -- the CD / DVD combo I bought -- I now own and, if I want to, I could sell it, give it away, run it over with my car or bury it in the backyard.

With any copies made, I don't have the rights to do anything I want.

Is this really this difficult to understand?


It might be like that, but who cares? (might sound arrogant, but im not)
Think logical, as I said some times now, even if you download the ROM or buy the cartridge used the company wont make any money. And of course, it isnt illegal to buy used games, but when you do the companies dont make any money on you. So why should it be legal to download old ROMs? (dont have to answer this question, it was just a question you can ask yourself :))

What's an old ROM? Is downloading a copy of Feet of Fury for the Dreamcast online legal because it is for a system not actively supported by the original developer? Even though I have copies for sale?

If someone buys the game from someone else used I as the publisher and Cryptic Allusion as the developer have already made the correct amount of money off it. If you take and distribute my data, *I* do not get the money from that transaction.

I am thinking about this logically. Have you ever had intellectual property stolen from you? Ask yourself a question -- put yourself in my shoes and what would you think about that, especially when the development costs have been so high we have yet to break even? I guess you don't have to answer that, but think about it.

And if you're going to sit there and say that "Well, Nintendo is much bigger than the GOAT Store" I'm going to say bullshit. It doesn't matter the size of the company, otherwise it is a personal judgement call on "how much is this company worth" for if it is "fair" to pirate from them or not.

[punkoffgirl]

Like goatdan and evan said, there really is no gray area. Like it or not, if it's not something you created from something you own, it's illegal. I'm not saying I agree with it, but that's the way I understand the law to read.

(Sidenote, I'm suprized I haven't seen mention of the "24 hour" rule. Has that one been finally and permanently cast to the land of urban legend?)

Aren't there some ROMs that the programmers have released to the general public?

Yeah, there is that. If someone is the rights owner, then they can turn it over to the public domain (ie, the Vectrex catalog.)

I'm still getting a chuckle out of the fact that this discussion keeps coming up. At least in the US, there really isn't a question that unless you are the rights owner, or the rights owner has granted permission, we're talking about illegal activity. This isn't about a bunch of gamers debating it, this isn't something under debate. Try to spin it however you want, it doesn't change what the law says. I don't agree with it, and I really doubt they're going to start going after individual gamers ala the RIAA and Napster users. It doesn't change what the law says though.

Yeah, the internet is funny that way. I think sometimes it gets to be more about who can shout the loudest, than who can really do the most to bring about change :)

[zektor]

You can't do this, you can't do that.

You can't chew gum in class either!


While I am against hurting the sales of current games via piracy, I personally see no harm in playing a game that is 20 years old on an emulator. Come on, in most cases the said game is making absolutely no money today and in even more cases the company is extinct.

This is just my opinion of course. I am sure somebody out there owns the rights to some ancient game, and will try to sue the hell out of you when they find out you are pirating that 4kb 1982 cartridge.

So, on that note, don't do it kids. AND, don't chew gum in class.

[Garry Silljo]

It might be like that, but who cares? (might sound arrogant, but im not)
Think logical, as I said some times now, even if you download the ROM or buy the cartridge used the company wont make any money. And of course, it isnt illegal to buy used games, but when you do the companies dont make any money on you. So why should it be legal to download old ROMs? (dont have to answer this question, it was just a question you can ask yourself :))

I was going to reply to you, but I'm tired of speaking to a brick wall and Goatdan basically told every I was going to say plus more. Do it or don't do it, but know the facts and don't cry when you don't find yourself on the side you want to be.

[petewhitley]

Instead of debating this topic uninformed. Maybe we should all read the law (in the US) again...

http://www.copyright.gov/1201/2003/index.html

It clearly states that roms are legal if they are for an obsolete systemand no longer commercially available. (Read #3 a few times)

It actually doesn't say that. It refers to the "circumvention of technological measures that control access to copyrighted works", which a very different thing than saying "roms are legal". Further links on the site give more detailed information into this issue.

[Mangar]

It's illegal. Period.

I just couldn't care less, and will continue to break the law as i see fit. Same with piracy, speeding in my car, and "avoiding" tolls. I just don't see why people have this need to justify to others that what they are doing is somehow "legal" or right. Sure it's a victimless crime and nobody gets hurt, but honestly - Who gives a fuck?

Just accept what you are doing and move on. Geez...

[jajaja]

It's illegal. Period.

I just couldn't care less, and will continue to break the law as i see fit. Same with piracy, speeding in my car, and "avoiding" tolls. I just don't see why people have this need to justify to others that what they are doing is somehow "legal" or right. Sure it's a victimless crime and nobody gets hurt, but honestly - Who gives a fuck?

Just accept what you are doing and move on. Geez...

True, no one loses anything on it and will the police do anything if you download old ROMs? I see it, "Man goes to jail for 3 years for playing Metroid NES rom" LOL

[jajaja]

Exactly :) So it doesnt matter if John Smith owns the copy that he have for sale on Ebay or if you own it. Nintendo have already made the profit for that cartridge.

Did you skip the other half of the argument? The fact that NO ONE paid for the ROM?

If you pay money to purchase a copy of something, that does not give you free reign to do whatever you want with it. I just bought a copy of the new live Green Day CD / DVD tonight. Just because I paid for it doesn't mean that I can make copies and sell them and show the DVD in a movie theater and charge for it. The copyright holder still has rights, but the item itself -- the CD / DVD combo I bought -- I now own and, if I want to, I could sell it, give it away, run it over with my car or bury it in the backyard.

With any copies made, I don't have the rights to do anything I want.

Is this really this difficult to understand?


It might be like that, but who cares? (might sound arrogant, but im not)
Think logical, as I said some times now, even if you download the ROM or buy the cartridge used the company wont make any money. And of course, it isnt illegal to buy used games, but when you do the companies dont make any money on you. So why should it be legal to download old ROMs? (dont have to answer this question, it was just a question you can ask yourself :))

What's an old ROM? Is downloading a copy of Feet of Fury for the Dreamcast online legal because it is for a system not actively supported by the original developer? Even though I have copies for sale?

If someone buys the game from someone else used I as the publisher and Cryptic Allusion as the developer have already made the correct amount of money off it. If you take and distribute my data, *I* do not get the money from that transaction.

I am thinking about this logically. Have you ever had intellectual property stolen from you? Ask yourself a question -- put yourself in my shoes and what would you think about that, especially when the development costs have been so high we have yet to break even? I guess you don't have to answer that, but think about it.

And if you're going to sit there and say that "Well, Nintendo is much bigger than the GOAT Store" I'm going to say bullshit. It doesn't matter the size of the company, otherwise it is a personal judgement call on "how much is this company worth" for if it is "fair" to pirate from them or not.

Why do you compare new stuff and piracy with old ROMs?
If you make a copy of the new Greenday CD and give it to a friend the record company might have lost a sale because your friend might have bought the CD if you havnt made a copy for him. But its not like this with NES. If you download a NES ROM will Nintendo lose a sale? No, because they stopped selling it many years ago. And making money on piracy (which is extremly lame) and using it for personal use are 2 diffrent things.

But please drop the talk about pirating new stuff. It have NOTHING to do with this discussion. This discussion is about old ROMs for machines that arent longer supported.
Dreamcast isnt a ROM btw, it would a image.

And you compare stealing physical things with downloading. So you compare break in and stealing physical items with downloading stuff? You've watched the commersial on MTV havnt u? hehe. Anyways, I dont want to go off-topic and start discussion pirating of new software and music.

But think about this. You want a NES game, lets say Snake Rattle N Roll. You go to a gamestore and ask if they have it and they say no, its too old. Ok you think so you decide to contact Nintendo and ask if you can buy it from them. They tell you that Snake Rattle N Roll went out of production 15 years ago and that they dont sell it anymore.
So how can you get the game? A friend tell you that you can download the ROM and play it on your computer. But isnt this illegal? I buy it on Ebay instead.
Then you recive the game and play it, all is cool, but then you start thinking, hm.. why shouldnt I be allowed to download the ROM? Now that I bought it on Ebay Nintendo didnt make any money from me and since their not selling it anymore and theres no way i can get it from them. So.. even if I downloaded the ROM or bought it on Ebay Nintendo wouldnt make any money of me.

Why are the laws? To protect people. Having a law that dont allow you to download old ROMs, who do you protect by banning this? As someone mentioned earlier its a vicitmless "crime". You dont hurt anyone financialy or phyiscaly.

Ive seen alot of crazy laws from USA, stuff like:

- It is against the law for a car to back up.
- A man has a legal right to beat his wife, but only once a month.
- It is illeagl to set a mouse trap without a hunting permit.

I doubt that these laws are still used, but who writes the law? You dont have to agree to everything that it say.

[jajaja]

I don't remember seeing in the copyright laws any exclusion. You CAN NOT make anything other than a person backup of media that YOU OWN. You CAN NOT download roms for systems that are no longer for sale in the retail marketplace. Copyrights last for 75 years, not until the owner can 'no longer make money from them'. Plus, tons of people sell these items on Ebay, it is not fair to them for the value of these items they are selling to goto because people are 'legally' downloading these items.

Of course, this doesn't mean people don't... feel free to disagree.

What about the new NES/Famicom from Messiah? Would Nintendo sue their asses because copyrights last for 75 years as you claim? This doesnt sound right btw.
I think Messiah have checked up on whats allowed etc and afaik know they dont work with Nintendo.

[DDCecil]

What about the new NES/Famicom from Messiah? Would Nintendo sue their asses because copyrights last for 75 years as you claim? This doesnt sound right btw.
I think Messiah have checked up on whats allowed etc and afaik know they dont work with Nintendo.

The NES system patent ran out (20 years). The games did not (75 years). It doesn't come with games built-in like they sell in every mall across America or those crappy mulitcarts that everybody oh so loves.

[jajaja]

Ah, ok. Thanks for the info.

[shaggy]

If you own the game than I don't think it should be illegal. You should be able to legally back up your copies. I think it is illegal, though, in the U.S. I thought there was a law, though, that after so many years (15 years, I think) after the production of the game than it is legal to have the ROM in your possession. Personally, I think the older stuff is alright to use or the obscure stuff I would never get to own.

[goatdan]

Why do you compare new stuff and piracy with old ROMs?

Because you apparently have no idea of how the law works.


If you make a copy of the new Greenday CD and give it to a friend the record company might have lost a sale because your friend might have bought the CD if you havnt made a copy for him. But its not like this with NES. If you download a NES ROM will Nintendo lose a sale? No, because they stopped selling it many years ago. And making money on piracy (which is extremly lame) and using it for personal use are 2 diffrent things.

Have you EVER noticed any of the classic collections coming out? Let's use the Mega Man collection as an example. It contains Mega Man 1-6 from the NES.

If you download the Mega Man ROMs, might you decide to skip purchasing the collector pack?


But please drop the talk about pirating new stuff. It have NOTHING to do with this discussion. This discussion is about old ROMs for machines that arent longer supported.
Dreamcast isnt a ROM btw, it would a image.

Well, I'm glad to know that you are one of the people that pirate my titles. I'll make sure not to sell them to you.

The Dreamcast isn't supported any more, so it's okay with you to steal my stuff, hunh? Cool Herders, which comes out in about two weeks, would be fine to copy, hunh?


And you compare stealing physical things with downloading. So you compare break in and stealing physical items with downloading stuff? You've watched the commersial on MTV havnt u? hehe. Anyways, I dont want to go off-topic and start discussion pirating of new software and music.

Because you refuse to look at this from the other side. In law, you have to look at the facts, and you can't base facts on opinions. What consoles are "fair" to pirate is an opinion. You can't make that into a fact. What developers / publishers are okay to steal from is an opinion. You can't make that a fact.

If you get busted and you are taken to court, when you are standing in front of the judge if you say, "Well, I pirated EA's Playstation 1 games because they were on an old system and EA makes a lot of money." Tell me if you think that has ANY legal back up?


But think about this. You want a NES game, lets say Snake Rattle N Roll. You go to a gamestore and ask if they have it and they say no, its too old. Ok you think so you decide to contact Nintendo and ask if you can buy it from them. They tell you that Snake Rattle N Roll went out of production 15 years ago and that they dont sell it anymore.
So how can you get the game? A friend tell you that you can download the ROM and play it on your computer. But isnt this illegal? I buy it on Ebay instead.

Then you recive the game and play it, all is cool, but then you start thinking, hm.. why shouldnt I be allowed to download the ROM? Now that I bought it on Ebay Nintendo didnt make any money from me and since their not selling it anymore and theres no way i can get it from them. So.. even if I downloaded the ROM or bought it on Ebay Nintendo wouldnt make any money of me.

Do you not listen? [b]Nintendo got paid for the physical cartridge when it was originally sold. The person that made the ROM did not have the right to copy the game and put it online, as that person did not pay for that right.

This is not that difficult. I don't know why you can't understand it.


Why are the laws? To protect people. Having a law that dont allow you to download old ROMs, who do you protect by banning this? As someone mentioned earlier its a vicitmless "crime". You dont hurt anyone financialy or phyiscaly.

So since I produce games under the name of the GOAT Store, *my* property shouldn't be protected to do with as I please?

This is an extremely frustrating conversation for me because, as was already mentioned by me, I understand piracy and I am not 100% clean myself. But I also understand the laws and have had my own work stolen from me. You have not tried putting yourself in my place.

And in a year or two or five when I'm not selling these games, if I want to drive up demand and then repress them, sharing them online will hurt my ability to do that.

I own the rights to produce the game, but since I work under the banner of the GOAT Store, am I correct in saying that your feelings is that the GOAT Store cannot be me in any way, and therefore since stealing my work only hurts the GOAT Store and not me physically or financially (although the GOAT Store gets hurt financially) is okay?


Ive seen alot of crazy laws from USA, stuff like:

- It is against the law for a car to back up.
- A man has a legal right to beat his wife, but only once a month.
- It is illeagl to set a mouse trap without a hunting permit.

I doubt that these laws are still used, but who writes the law? You dont have to agree to everything that it say.

Does that mean that you can re-write the law yourself, or that you have to comply with it?

Last I checked, even if the law says that you can't walk an elephant down the street, and by walking an elephant down the street you won't be hurting anyone physically or financially, you still can't decide personally to walk an elephant down the street.

If you decide "I don't give a damn" and you walk your elephant anyway, you risk being prosecuted. And when you go to court, do you think saying, "I don't agree with this law, it was written by someone else, so walking my elephant down the street was legal for me to do." will make the judge side with you.

All right, I know what you'll type -- blahblahblah, Nintendo doesn't make money on the ROM, blahblahblah, I don't like the law, blahblahblah. Read my words above, and then go pirate my games just because you feel it is fair to do so. I'm done with this idiotic conversation.

[goatdan]

If you own the game than I don't think it should be illegal. You should be able to legally back up your copies. I think it is illegal, though, in the U.S. I thought there was a law, though, that after so many years (15 years, I think) after the production of the game than it is legal to have the ROM in your possession. Personally, I think the older stuff is alright to use or the obscure stuff I would never get to own.

If you own the game, I don't think it is illegal to make a copy of it as long as it is for personal use. I agree with that completely too.

One of my friends was looking for Jaguar stuff online because he had heard me talking about it. While looking, he found a set of all of the game ROMs for it (not counting new releases). I downloaded a copy of it, and I will play them. I don't think it's illegal at all because I own every game for the Jaguar... usually multiple copies of each.

If anyone knows otherwise, I would like to know, but as I understand it you can back up your own stuff for your own use.

[jajaja]

lol goatdan, im not sure if your serious or kidding here..
And its funny to see that people get pissed because someone have another point of view or opinion on a case hehe. Just accept it.
I dont even know where to start, but i'll try hehe.


Have you EVER noticed any of the classic collections coming out? Let's use the Mega Man collection as an example. It contains Mega Man 1-6 from the NES.

So.. what if I dont have GC/PS2/Xbox? Do I need to buy one of these and the game just to play Mega Man 6?


Well, I'm glad to know that you are one of the people that pirate my titles. I'll make sure not to sell them to you.

What on earth are you talking about? :hmm:
Again, are you serious or kidding? Cant tell..


Do you not listen? [b]Nintendo got paid for the physical cartridge when it was originally sold. The person that made the ROM did not have the right to copy the game and put it online, as that person did not pay for that right.

lol, ive commented on this 60 times now. You talk like NES games are new and that someone dumped it and spread the ROM. How Im I suppose to get a NES game today so Nintendo can make money on it? No, I dont want any GBA classic serie or a build-in Mega Man ROM in some collection. I want a genuine NES game.



So since I produce games under the name of the GOAT Store, *my* property shouldn't be protected to do with as I please?

You produce NES games? Remember Im talking NES (and old consoles that went of the marked year ago), NOT new stuff.


I own the rights to produce the game, but since I work under the banner of the GOAT Store, am I correct in saying that your feelings is that the GOAT Store cannot be me in any way, and therefore since stealing my work only hurts the GOAT Store and not me physically or financially (although the GOAT Store gets hurt financially) is okay?

I dont quite understand what you mean here. If the GOAT store doesnt sell the game (or anyone sells the game) and someone makes a copy of it, how does it hurt the GOAT store?





Does that mean that you can re-write the law yourself, or that you have to comply with it?

No, I guess you didnt understand my point here. My point is that there are alot of laws, but you dont have to agree to all of them.

But to but it plain and simple so even you can understand, yes, the law might say that its not allowed to download 20 year old game ROMs that went of the marked years ago, but that doesnt mean you have to agree with it.

[kevin_psx]

Playing roms for systems that doesn't sell the games new anymore. Like Snes, Nes, Sega, Genesis, etc. It's not like the companies are still making money off of these games.

Yes they're making money.
We see Link to the Past in stores.
We see NES games for GBA.
And Nintendo will sell games for downloading.

Plus many classic game collections for PS2 or Gamecube. So if the game's for sale - you download it - you're stealing.



Yes I download roms.
Yes I'm a thief.
But when I see it for sale - buy it. The programmers & artists deserve to get paid -

- not left homeless 'cause they got laid off 'cause Nintendo or Sega went bankrupt 'cause you stole their goods.

[Garry Silljo]

So.. what if I dont have GC/PS2/Xbox? Do I need to buy one of these and the game just to play Mega Man 6?


I think you are as usual missing the point. It doesn't matter what system the ROM is pulled from because it's the same game on any of the multiple formats. You keep trying to seperate Mega Man 1 on the NES from Mega Man 1 on the GC/XB/PS2. They are not different. The game is the same and it is the game that is copyrighted. No, you don't have to have the new systems to play this game, but you do need to not be lazy and/or cheap, and track down a physical copy you can play.

Note, the word need was from a legal stand point. You can always choose to pirate, just break down and admit that it is what it is, PIRATING.

[goatdan]

I continue, only because you are so misinformed I hope that people realize that your arguments don't make sense.


So.. what if I dont have GC/PS2/Xbox? Do I need to buy one of these and the game just to play Mega Man 6?

Yes. Because then the companies that own the property get paid for it.

Or, you could purchase an already paid for, used NES console and an already paid for, used NES Mega Man 6.

Either way, the developer and publisher properly get paid.



Well, I'm glad to know that you are one of the people that pirate my titles. I'll make sure not to sell them to you.

What on earth are you talking about? :hmm:
Again, are you serious or kidding? Cant tell..

You said it's all good to steal for consoles not supported anymore. Sega doesn't support the Dreamcast. Therefore, is it okay to steal for it? Your argument clearly said yes it was.

And if not, there are new games being made for the 2600, Genesis, Sega CD, Jaguar, Lynx, CD-i, Colecovision, Intellivision... the list goes on. Since they are older, are they okay to steal from them?

Where do you draw the line. Argue it in a _legal_ sense where a judge would say, "I agree." Not in the "Well, I think it is okay" way. I'm arguing the law here. Not your opinion.


lol, ive commented on this 60 times now. You talk like NES games are new and that someone dumped it and spread the ROM. How Im I suppose to get a NES game today so Nintendo can make money on it? No, I dont want any GBA classic serie or a build-in Mega Man ROM in some collection. I want a genuine NES game.

If anyone else is reading this thread, can you please tell me if I'm not being clear enough on this point? I don't understand how you can miss this...

When Nintendo sold Mega Man 6 to the original buyer, they made their money on it. As part of the deal with buying it, you can resell it. Therefore, the original copy is allowed to be resold.

You did not purchase a license to copy and distribute Mega Man 6 in any way you feel. You could pay Capcom a lot of money and perhaps get that right, but it costs more than $49.99.

If you want the original game, you need to buy it used on a game that has already had the fee paid to Nintendo on it.


You produce NES games? Remember Im talking NES (and old consoles that went of the marked year ago), NOT new stuff.

So it's cool to steal new Atari 2600 releases then?

You want Star Strike for the Sega CD, so that's cool to steal?

Total Carnage for the Jaguar is too expensive for you, so it's cool to steal it?


I dont quite understand what you mean here. If the GOAT store doesnt sell the game (or anyone sells the game) and someone makes a copy of it, how does it hurt the GOAT store?

If you purchase a game and start distributing it so less people feel the need to purchase the game, how does that NOT hurt the GOAT Store?


No, I guess you didnt understand my point here. My point is that there are alot of laws, but you dont have to agree to all of them.

Last I checked, you need to abide them though. Something you are very obviously not doing, even going so far as to claim that copyright law is similiar to a law making backing up your car illegal.

It is extremely obvious in this conversation that you have never had any intellectual property that you wanted to distribute in any means, and have never thought about doing it. I can argue this conversation both ways, but having my own intellectual property that has been stolen by pirates puts me in a location where I believe that I have a pretty valid opinion. I've been on both sides of the fence. I understand both sides of the argument.

Try putting yourself in my shoes. You make a game. You spend a lot of money -- thousands of dollars -- getting it to market, promiting it, distributing it and of course actually pressing it. After you have made the game, people like you start pirating the work with the reasons that, "It's hard to find this game" and "The Dreamcast isn't supported anymore" and "I wasn't going to buy it anyway, so they didn't lose any profits."

Now you (me) own the rights to produce this game. Cryptic Allusion, who developed it, own everything else with the game. Pirates have now decided that they don't care what you own, they are going to give it out.

How would you feel about this?


But to but it plain and simple so even you can understand, yes, the law might say that its not allowed to download 20 year old game ROMs that went of the marked years ago, but that doesnt mean you have to agree with it.

Yes, but it does mean you are supposed to comply with it. One final example that I'm sure you'll dismiss...

I like getting drunk and driving all the time, and I don't think it's fair that I can't drink a 12 pack of beer and drive. On my way home, as long as I don't hit anyone, it's a victimless crime. Right?

Does that mean that what I am doing can't hurt someone in the long run?

Piracy is the same way. People like you killed the Dreamcast, and I know people don't believe that, and I know that people have to be frustrated with me not being able to explain this, but it's true.

Maybe I could drink and drive 20 times before hurting anyone, but on the 21st I kill someone. Does that mean the only time the law should apply is the 21st time?

Piracy, even with "old" (interpert at will) systems, can hurt companies... companies that are run by people. Yes, maybe you don't hurt people 2000 out of 2001 times, but that doesn't mean it's a totally "victimless" thing.

[Tanis178]

i think another point of contention is price, collectors dictate prices for others, yes i've played roms, and yes i've got hundreds of games, yet you won't see me buying FF3 for $100 bucks, i know and have friends that that just completely disgusts them and i don't blame them.

how does one try to convince another to buy rather than pirate while (i'll use LTTP as it's shown up in this chat) when a new copy goes for a ridiculous amount of money, more than what it costs originally, and don't say "plenty of non-cib or non-nib versions" because collectors wouldn't accept them neither should gamers, nor should one have to buy a game twice because it's been re-released on another system, or buy a TG16 for $100 used lol.

most of us here if not all know it's illegal, or in most cases too grey to be certain one way or another, but i think 20 years from know we'll all have different opinions than we do now, one advantage of emulation is the archiving of classic systems and games that are obsolete and games from across the world, not to mention the curiousity and enjoyment alot of people have in making them and running them, and when all of our ps2's and xbox's break (if they haven't already) i'd be nice to have a simulated enviroment where lock-ups and hdd-failures aren't such a plague.

we'll see how the Revolution's virtual console works, it may ease alot of this or drive people further away, i for one won't pay $10 to download a Nes game i can't have a hard-copy of.

[kevin_psx]

Let's use the Mega Man collection as an example. It contains Mega Man 1-6 from the NES.
So.. what if I dont have GC/PS2/Xbox? Do I need to buy one of these and the game just to play Mega Man 6?

No you don't have to buy. But then you're a thief. Putting programmers out of work 'cause Nintendo/Sega went bankrupt 'cause you stole their games.

Sorry to be blunt - but I speak the truth.



And "but I already bought it" don't fly. I bought Star Wars on VHS tape, laserdisc, DVD - and soon Bluray DVD - that's life. Old standards die out.

[video_game_addict]

You're pretty clear Dan, and I agree with you completely.

I also think it should be perfectly fine to download a rom for a game you already own, so long as it's going to be for personal use.

[jajaja]

Let's use the Mega Man collection as an example. It contains Mega Man 1-6 from the NES.
So.. what if I dont have GC/PS2/Xbox? Do I need to buy one of these and the game just to play Mega Man 6?

No you don't have to buy. But then you're a thief. Putting programmers out of work 'cause Nintendo/Sega went bankrupt 'cause you stole their games.

Sorry to be blunt - but I speak the truth.



And "but I already bought it" don't fly. I bought Star Wars on VHS tape, laserdisc, DVD - and soon Bluray DVD - that's life. Old standards die out.

First of all, no this is not the thruth. Even Goat said you can buy Mega Man 6 used so if you want to play it you dont have to buy the Mega Man Anniversary collection.
Seriously, why do you think im talking about pirating new stuff? God damn, read what Im writing man, im talking about old console ROMs, not new games!


Piracy is the same way. People like you killed the Dreamcast, and I know people don't believe that, and I know that people have to be frustrated with me not being able to explain this, but it's true.

First, you should be very careful about throwing out accusations like that. You make up a picture in your mind that Im some kid who download all kinds of shit just because I dont see anything wrong downloading old ROMs (not talking about images). So you should be careful about judging people you dont know. Second, there have always been piracy. Take the new consoles, there are probly alot of pirating going on with the PS2 and Xbox and you dont see these consoles dying. Piracy might be one of the factor for the fall of Dreamcast, but it sure wasnt the only one.

Your talking about piracy like the A2600 and NES are totaly new on the marked, im not. Im talking about stuff that arent sold anymore, 2 completely diffrent things. If you buy a game and resell it the company only get payed for 1 sale, but 2 people have owned it.
But clearly you dont understand what my point is or you dont want to understand just so you can agrue, so i will end the conversation here.