Anybody play with a video upscaler?

[Cinder6]

So, I'm one of the perhaps many that is going through the transition of putting classic consoles on an HDTV. Since the 1.80 PS3 update, which adds upscaling, I've been wondering how much older consoles would benefit from this.

Has anyone here played classic systems using a video upscaler? Before I decide to go out and buy one (which tend to be rather expensive for a good one), I'd like to find out if it's worth it, or if there's really little difference. It looks great with PS1/PS2 games, but that also has extra smoothing applied, and I have no idea how an older game would look.

[roushimsx]

You can disable the extra smoothing on the PS1/PS2 games with a flick of an option if you so desire

Has anyone here played classic systems using a video upscaler?

I'm way, way too cheap to either build or buy a proper upscaler for older consoles, so I just use a soft modded Xbox. It's a bit different in that the games (for systems with decent emulators available) will actually render at that resolution (and that's before you bother applying any filtering, if that's what tickles your fancy), but god damn do the games look nice and clean.

[Trebuken]

I've wondered about this in the past. The only definitive item that people use is the XRGB which seems to positively affect the video output of older systems.

The question for me is whether or not an external scaler would make a significant difference versus the internal scaler in my set...

[mario2butts]

I have an XRGB-3 and love it, worth every penny. It can scale to 1024x768, 1280x1024, and 1600x1200 with some lag, or to 480p with zero lag (what I use). Right now I'm using it with a 480p DLP projector, so the output from the unit isn't scaled at all, and the picture is flawless. Granted, I'm using an RGB connection with most of my consoles (Genesis, N64 with RGB mod, SNES, Playstation, Saturn), or component with the modern (well, I guess last gen) consoles when playing a game that doesn't support 480p. S-Video looks pretty good, though. Composite looks horrible, though I discovered that by converting composite to S-Video through my receiver and outputting that to the xrgb, picture quality improves considerably. This is how I have my NES hooked up; the picture is very good.

How the XRGB would look on a true HD set (720p, 1080i, or 1080p native) depends on how well the TV scales 480p to its native resolution. Chances are if your HDTV displays 480p content well, the XRGB will look equally good if you feed it RGB or component video.

Oh, and when in 480p lag-free mode, the XRGB-3 can only output via VGA, even though it does have a digital DVI out. The older versions of the XRGB are all VGA only. So unless your TV has a VGA input you'll have to use a VGA to component transcoder.

[Gamereviewgod]

I've been looking for a while, but I have a PC hooked up via DVI filled with emulators and it's outputting stunning picture quality to my TV. I just can't seem to justify one with this set up. If the picture quality bothers me, I'll play it on the PC. If not, I'll play it on the original console. Most don't look that bad anyway.

[GaijinPunch]

So, I'm one of the perhaps many that is going through the transition of putting classic consoles on an HDTV. Since the 1.80 PS3 update, which adds upscaling, I've been wondering how much older consoles would benefit from this..

Benefit? Zero. They will look like shit, period. Buy an old CRT to play your classic games.

EDIT: Okay, if it has a fake scanlines option (like XRGB2, etc.) then you should be okay. Not all of them do though, AFAIK. I think one of the XRGB units has issues as well. Still, CRT w/ RGB is better, but that's not an option for some.

Note that some games (2D games interlaced...many found on the PS2) will gie you a seizure if played through an XRGB w/ fake scanlines turned on.

but god damn do the games look nice and clean.

This is a joke, right? Upscaled and filtered compared to non-interlaced and crisp?

[Cinder6]

Thanks for the responses. I think I'll hold off for now, and maybe wait to see if an XRGB-4 or something comes out, with HDMI hopefully

$330 is a lot better than what I was looking at, though. I bet that one (made by Rotel) is higher quality, but probably not enough so to justify the difference, unless I had a 65" TV or something (or $1000+ to burn...).

[norkusa]

I was kinda looking at these the other day but still not sure exactly what they do.

Bought an new LCD HDTV but I'm not able to play PS1 games on my modded PStwo w/ component with it because the screen is all garbled. Would using one of these help?

And do they help with the lag at all? Because playing IIDX and DDR on a hdtv is a bitch.

[Soviet Conscript]

i'm slightly confused so just to clarify. an upscaler is pretty much for playing classic consoles on a LCD or plasma HDTV right? cause i have a CRT HDTV and my classic systems look pretty good for the most part.

[Cinder6]

An upscaler takes a low-resolution source and upconverts it to a higher resolution (say, 1080i, which is the highest I've seen). This usually gives the effect of blurring the image somewhat, with the end result that it looks better and less pixelated.

HDTVs usually (always?) have built-in upscalers, but the quality can vary somewhat. For instance, the one in my TV isn't too spectactular. The PS3 does a much better job on DVDs. A high-quality upscaler should do an even better job. Basically, I'm trying to see if anyone has used one and if they recommend it. For now, I'm going to wait.

As for your question, Soviet Conscript, I believe the max size for a 4:3 CRT is 40" (not sure about widescreen). At that size, you won't notice the pixellation nearly as much as if you are using it on a larger screen. DVDs look just fine on my 40" HD CRT, but they look poor on my 50" widescreen if I'm not using the PS3's upscaler.

As for you, norkusa, I'm not sure if it would help your problem. I could reconnect my PS2 and see if it's garbled on my set as well (I have component cables), but my Gamecube looks fine (also via component) and all my classic systems are clear, if rather pixelated. If I could sit back farther from the TV while playing, it wouldn't be a problem, but alas, those cords only stretch so far. I've also not encountered lag on my games, so I think it's specific to your model TV (I've heard of lag problems on HDTVs before, though).

[GaijinPunch]

Okay, here's a quick example.

Most old game systems run games in 240p (15khz). This was all fine and dandy through the 32-bit days, but now everyone seems to have a LCD... none of which support native 15khz signals. So, what does it do? It upscales them, usually w/ a crappy upscaler. Note the exhibit pictures taken from Princess Crown

Native:


Upscaled (lines are doubled, w/ no fake scanlines):


So, what's wrong with that? Well, in still pictures, the damage isn't as apparent. Even on most half-decent CRT Tvs, the damage isn't nearly as bad as when you're playing via Component (on a 15khz monitor) or of course, RGB -- where the difference can absolutely kill a game.

To alleviate this problem, XRGB and a few other products will do the work that your TV sucks at. It will take the 240p signal, upscale it to 480p, and black out every other line (scanlines) to emulate a low resolution picture. The results are actually pretty nice, although I prefer to have the real thing.

If you want to see the difference between your TV & something else upscaling, get a confirmed low-resolution game (ESPGaluda or Dodonpachi DOJ in TATE mode on the PS2) and play it on an LCD. Now, get a game which is interlaced (Mushihime-sama, Ibara, Metal Slug 3 & 4, etc on the PS2). While they all will look like shit compared to their originals, the already interlaced ones will not be as bad as the native low res games on the LCD. This is b/c your PS2 is actually better at upscaling than your LCD.