Atari 7800, XEGS, and ST questions

[Rob2600]

1. Does anyone know which Atari console had better graphics capabilities, the 7800 or the XEGS?

2. Why did Atari release these two home game consoles within a year from each other? Why would they choose to compete with themselves?

3. Why did Atari chose to adapt its 8-bit 65XE computer into the XEGS console? Wouldn't it have made more sense for Atari to adapt its 16-bit ST computer into a console instead? I've never used an Atari ST computer, but judging from screen shots, it appears to have had graphics on par with the Amiga and Sega Genesis.

[Kid Ice]

# 1... 7800

# 2 ... they were in Tramiel, I mean uhh, turmoil

# 3 ... too expensive?

[Pantechnicon]

1. Looking at just the raw specs, the 7800 had better graphic capabilities than the XEGS.

2. Because when the NES started to catch on the U.S., Atari, now under the control of Jack Tramiel, was reluctantly trying to play catch-up to get back into the console market. The 7800 was actually developed in 1984, shelved owing to the market crash of `84, then given a wide release in 1986. The XEGS came out the next year. So a better question might be why the XEGS, clearly inferior to the 7800 (whose inventory, I suspect, Atari mostly only wanted to be rid of at this point), was released as a "successor" to that system, let alone as a competitor to the NES? My guess was that Atari since XE development began in 1985, Atari had a lot of components laying around and this allowed a quicker, cheaper dev cycle for the XEGS. So Atari was able to put a "new" system on the market, sure, but there was no way it was going to be any threat to the NES. When you think about it, all Atari systems between the 400 and the XEGS (including the 5200) are virtually the same thing. So it was a case of 1979 Atari technology going up against 1983 Famicom technology. No contest.

3. Jack Tramiel did not want Atari to be in the game business while under his watch. He wanted to turn it into a full-fledged computer company. There was no way he was going to let his emerging ST line get hacked into a game console, no matter how potentially profitable it would have been.

[Rob2600]

# 1... 7800

So Atari released the XEGS a year after the 7800 and the XEGS had worse graphics? Where's the logic in that?

# 2 ... they were in Tramiel, I mean uhh, turmoil

Yes, the Tramiels. That explains the lack of logic.

Seriously though, why did they buy Atari's home division if they were going to run it so poorly?

[7th lutz]

2.) Atari had some left over xe computers left. They decided to repackage it as a game system.

The Tramiels didn't want the 7800 to be released. The Tramiels saw the 7800 as an updated 2600 with better graphics with them feeling the 7800 couldn't do nes style games.

It didn't make any sense though. They hurted the 7800 as a result of releasing the xegs.

[7th lutz]

So Atari released the XEGS a year after the 7800 and the XEGS had worse graphics? Where's the logic in that?



Yes, the Tramiels. That explains the lack of logic.

Seriously though, why did they buy Atari's home division if they were going to run it so poorly?

They only cared getting rid of the unsold stock of xe computers.

They wanted the computer part of atari. They were forced to take the video game home game console division since it was included in the sale.

[Rob2600]

2. Because when the NES started to catch on the U.S., Atari, now under the control of Jack Tramiel, was reluctantly trying to play catch-up to get back into the console market. The 7800 was actually developed in 1984, shelved owing to the market crash of `84, then given a wide release in 1986. The XEGS came out the next year. So a better question might be why the XEGS, clearly inferior to the 7800 (whose inventory, I suspect, Atari mostly only wanted to be rid of at this point), was released as a "successor" to that system, let alone as a competitor to the NES? My guess was that Atari since XE development began in 1985, Atari had a lot of components laying around and this allowed a quicker, cheaper dev cycle for the XEGS. So Atari was able to put a "new" system on the market, sure, but there was no way it was going to be any threat to the NES. When you think about it, all Atari systems between the 400 and the XEGS (including the 5200) are virtually the same thing. So it was a case of 1979 Atari technology going up against 1983 Famicom technology. No contest.

I understand the XEGS was probably easy to manufacture and was compatible with many old games, but the whole situation still doesn't make sense to me.

Why would Atari release two different consoles at almost the same time, especially if it wasn't really going to support either one? Why not just release one console and fully support it?

[Rob2600]

2.) Atari had some left over xe computers left. They decided to repackage it as a game system. ... They only cared getting rid of the unsold stock of xe computers.

They wanted the computer part of atari. They were forced to take the video game home game console division since it was included in the sale.

I guess the situation makes a bit more sense looking at it from that point of view. If Atari's owners were trying to unload a bunch of parts they weren't interested in, then it'd make sense that they'd try to do it at a profit. Of course, the downside is that customers end up with products that aren't really supported.

The Tramiels saw the 7800 as an updated 2600 with better graphics with them feeling the 7800 couldn't do nes style games.

If they thought the 7800 couldn't compete with the NES, what made them think the weaker XEGS could?

[Pantechnicon]

I understand the XEGS was probably easy to manufacture and was compatible with many old games, but the whole situation still doesn't make sense to me.

That's alright. When it came to Jack Tramiel, there was never much in the way of "sense" involved.

Why would Atari release two different consoles at almost the same time, especially if it wasn't really going to support either one? Why not just release one console and fully support it?

I reiterate: The Tramiels didn't want to be in the game market, period. They wanted to just get rid of the 7800's taking up inventory space. The XEGS was just a knee-jerk way for them to try and make quick cash in on the market resurgence made possible by the introduction of the NES.

{reprinted from Atari7800.com}
"...the Tramiels were not impressed with the 7800 ProSystem, or anything else the gaming end of Atari had to show them.

The following is a quote from Curt Vendel of the Atari Historical Society: "When Atari was sold to the Tramiels in 1984, the last the thing the Tramiels had on their minds was selling video games. They wanted the Atari name for selling their new computer which they put all their effort into. The Atari 7800 was shelved. Then Nintendo approached Atari back in 1983 to license and sell their Famicom system under the Atari name since Nintendo didn't feel it could compete against the once mighty video game giant. Nintendo was told that Atari was not interested in their 6502 CPU based video game system, also according to Michele Ebertin, former manager of Atari's Consumer Electronics Division "marketing just didn't like the idea of a game system with a controller that didn't have a joystick on it, they hated the Nintendo controllers." Nintendo decided that they would sell their Famicom in the U.S. and called it The "Nintendo Entertainment System" and it was an instant selling success. Atari Corp, seeing the sudden resurgence in the video game market decided it was time to pull the finished 2600jr that Atari, Inc under Warner Comm. had developed in 1983 out of mothballs and take the Atari 7800's which were also completed and sitting around for more then 2 years off the shelf and sell them in 1986. Well, it was too little, too late. Nintendo had the market; lock, stock and barrel. Not to mention Sega with its Master System was also hot in Nintendo's tail, Atari was running third in a race it used to run a far lead in first in the past."...

The Atari 7800 ProSystem was dead on arrival at the toy stores. "We only received one shipment of the 7800 in 1984 and that was it! We didn't get anything for nearly 2 years after that from Atari as far as the 7800 was concerned." says Lance Ringquist of Video 61. What had basically happened here was a case of child abuse. The Tramiels neglected the brainchild of Atari as soon as they had purchased the company. They let this advanced system sit on the shelves for over two years, and the once advanced system had technology that was starting to age.

When the 7800 ProSystem was eventually released in 1986 by Atari under Tramiel control, the once promising system came out the door limping. The Tramiels were a nasty, dank, greedy, and most of all, stingy family who treated Atari like their own personal bank account. They never put any money or thought into anything they did. The first thing they did to the 7800 ProSystem was cancel all the existing add-on technology from the 7800 ProSystem lineup. First to go was the ProLine Keyboard, followed by the High Score Cartridge. These promising accessories were not to be. It truly was such a waste. The nail in the coffin on all of this was the cut of the expansion port on the 7800 units. The expansion port which had been built into the first 5000 units was cut from further production, limiting the 7800 to its self contained technology, and again cutting all possibility of a LaserDisc add on."

[7th lutz]

I understand the XEGS was probably easy to manufacture and was compatible with many old games, but the whole situation still doesn't make sense to me.

Why would Atari release two different consoles at almost the same time, especially if it wasn't really going to support either one? Why not just release one console and fully support it?

I think you meant 3 systems. Atari was supporting the 2600jr, xegs and the 7800 at the same time. I think you understood about supporting the 2600 since the games were able to be played on an Atari 7800.

The Tramiels didn't use any logic for releasing the xegs. Their hope was not spending a lot of money on the 7800 would help them get a profit from what ever systems they sold. I am think they saw what the were going to the 7800 would work for the xegs.

[Rob2600]

"The nail in the coffin on all of this was the cut of the expansion port on the 7800 units. The expansion port which had been built into the first 5000 units was cut from further production, limiting the 7800 to its self contained technology, and again cutting all possibility of a LaserDisc add on."

With all due respect, a laserdisc add-on for the Atari 7800 would have been pointless. The thought of streaming stick figures off a gigantic optical disc is hilarious though.

[-^Cro§Bow^-]

The laserdisc add on would have only used the 7800s internal graphics to display score, lives remaining, etc. The rest of the game would have been seen as it was off the laserdisc from the arcades. Also using the 7800s controller to control the game action of course.

Personally, It might have been cool, but I imagine the actual cost of the system had it been released would have been out of reach for most consumers, not to mention that laserdiscs themselves would have been even more expensive and not as sturdy compared to a Cart for selling games on.

Still, who here wouldn't like to play Dragon's Lair with a Proline controller?! Oh..wait...yeah..maybe that isn't such a good idea...

[Steve W]

Really, the XEGS wasn't really designed as a video game console, it was the Tramiel's way of trying to breathe some life into the Atari 8-bit line by getting Atari computers into stores again in the guise of a game console. Like it's been said before, they didn't want to get into the game industry, they wanted to get a few more 8-bit computer users by using games to draw them in.

I remember buying XEGS games on clearance for $2.50 each at Wal-Mart/Hypermart back in the day. Back then, Wal-Mart was specializing in selling mostly American made products (literally the opposite of them today). I didn't have too much money, so I only picked up a few XEGS and 7800 games. I always regret not buying more.

[ubersaurus]

I understand the XEGS was probably easy to manufacture and was compatible with many old games, but the whole situation still doesn't make sense to me.

Why would Atari release two different consoles at almost the same time, especially if it wasn't really going to support either one? Why not just release one console and fully support it?

Hell, technically they put out three consoles. I'm pretty sure the 2600 got more support and dev money than the 7800 did. At least, the number of impressive late 80s 2600 games imply it.

[cyberfluxor]

The other night was when I first discovered atari7800.com but only read up on the 5200 goodies. What is this about the 7800 possibly being used to play laser-disc stuff because it's the first I've heard of it! (Likely because I never researched the full 7800 story of course)

[idrougge]

1. Does anyone know which Atari console had better graphics capabilities, the 7800 or the XEGS?

The 7800. But at least the XE was more familiar to developers. The XE also had better sound.

2. Why did Atari release these two home game consoles within a year from each other? Why would they chose to compete with themselves?

One word: Tramiel.

3. Why did Atari chose to adapt its 8-bit 65XE computer into the XEGS console? Wouldn't it have made more sense for Atari to adapt its 16-bit ST computer into a console instead?

Well, the ST was a much more expensive architecture than the eight-bitters. There were no other 16-bit consoles at the time, so it could be seen as pointless to release an over-specced, over-priced console at the time, especially since the original ST was also becoming a bit old at the time.

I've never used an Atari ST computer, but judging from screen shots, it appears to have had graphics on par with the Amiga and Sega Genesis.

The ST doesn't have graphics on par with the Amiga and Megadrive, but still rather close. The STe is not bad. And there were lots of rumours around 1989-1990 about a forthcoming ST-based console, though it could very well have been confused with the Panther, which was an entirely different beast.

[idrougge]

If they thought the 7800 couldn't compete with the NES, what made them think the weaker XEGS could?

At leas the XE had an established base of games which were already released on cartridge, or could be put on cartridge easily. This was around the same time that Commodore made the 64GS and Amstrad the GX4000.

[Rob2600]

That cheap mentality also hampered the Lynx and Jaguar.

How so? I owned a Lynx several months after it was released and was impressed with its capabilities.

I've never played a Jaguar, so I'm not quite familiar with its limitations. What was cheap about it? Did Atari skimp on RAM?

[Aswald]

You mention the 7800 and XE, but don't forget that Tramiel-Atari (GRRRR!) was still supporting the 2600, a console from the 1970s!

Unless they were complete and total idiots, there was no way that the Tramiels could have ever believed that any of those three, especially with the way they were handling the 7800, could have matched the NES and SMS. The whole time I owned the 7800, I never once got the impression that they were really serious about it. I admit it- I should have gotten an NES, if anything.

Remember that the Tramiels migrated from Commodore in 1984, and it's clear that they were only interested in computers. Therefore, all three consoles were probably only meant as an extra source of money, because they had it laying around. This may have made sense in the short-term, but it completely shot down their credibility with gamers, which was probably THE reason the Jaguar went nowhere. Who would trust them?

[Steve W]

How so? I owned a Lynx several months after it was released and was impressed with its capabilities.

I've never played a Jaguar, so I'm not quite familiar with its limitations. What was cheap about it? Did Atari skimp on RAM?

The Lynx was an insanely powerful machine for it's time, it's just that the Tramiels didn't spend too much on game development, for one example. Tales of their penny-pinching have become almost legendary. They needed to ship a few Lynx games overnight for a meeting, but they wouldn't cough up the few bucks to overnight it. One of the Tramiel sons would sit in his office looking over employee's lunchtime restaurant receipts to make sure that nobody tipped over 15%. They cheapened out at every opportunity, and it showed with the shoddy way they marketed and supported consoles like the Lynx and Jaguar. And the Jaguar did skimp on RAM. I remember reading a Slashdot article by John Carmack (Doom, Wolfenstein 3D) about the limited memory in the Jag, and if they had added 'real' RAM (something about "scratchpad memory") they could have tripled it's texture-mapping ability.