Thoughts on Third Party Grading as it relates to the field of video game collecting:

[neogamer]

Sorry to say this and a lot of you are going to hate me for saying this, but if you are solely a gamer, you will not like this thread. If you read it you will see why. I still want your opinion though! Just tell me in your post whether you are more of a gamer or collector. I cannot stress the importance of this thread! I now know of two individuals who have contacted me about financially backing them on moving this forward! Any advice is appreciated. One thing though, keep it civil and show mutual respect, as this can be a "hot topic" once you understand how it has changed other collecting fields. I will post more on that as we move along!

As some of you may know, in other fields of collecting (i.e. coins, toys, action figures, sports cards, comic books, etc.) the process of third party grading has taken over. Its effects on the market cannot be denied and that is why I started this thread. I am looking for input! Is it a good idea as it relates to our hobby? Is is a bad idea? These are all relevant questions. For the uninformed, third party grading is basically defined as a "third party" using their own set of standards grading a collectible and sealing it in a plastic "slab" that is also tamper evident. Obviously, if the outer "slab" has been opened or tampered with the grade is invalid.

What I am asking for is your thoughts as a whole on this topic. Right now as we speak, collectors are paying top dollar for factory sealed games. This is due to a few market factors: (I did not list them all, I know)

1. Lack of a grading standard. Example: I describe something as mint and sell it to you. You get it and put it under a magnifying glass thus finding various scratches. You want a refund because the item is "not as described." A grading standard set by a third party grading company will eliminate that.

2. Factory sealed games are selling at an average of four times the cost of an identical opened "MINT" item! Unless you want a FACTORY SEALED game, this is a little ridiculous (I'll even agree with that).

Due to no known grading standards or the lack of a third party grading company, collectors who want MINT games are forced to buy multiple mint copies of a game hoping they eventually find a true mint game, or buy a factory sealed game then open it! This is stupid!

Drawbacks to third party grading:

Guess what: Your collectibles will be sealed in a plastic slab! You can either open the slab, thus voiding the grade, display the slab, or resell it! Reselling a high graded item is going to cause an increase in prices! It has happened in every collectible field thus far, so I am telling you in advance. Dealers and resellers will make this happen. When collectors see that a FFVII is the highest available copy on eBay, they will pay big bucks for it.

Keep in mind a few things:

Most third party grading companies utilize a "census." This measures what they have graded, what grade was assigned, and how many are out there, whether it be in the marketplace or in a display case! These numbers are updated frequently and are displayed on the third party grading company's website.

MULTIPLE GRADING COMPANIES CAN AND WILL HARM THE MARKET! Want to buy a "graded" coin? Guess what? You have about five companies to choose from, but only two have collector confidence. This caused a lot of problems and still does to this day. Each company has different grading standards. How fun!

SO, THOSE THAT HAVE EXPERIENCE WITH THIRD PARTY GRADING IN OTHER FIELDS AND THOSE WHO DO NOT: HOW DO YOU, AS A VIDEO GAME COLLECTOR, FEEL ABOUT THIS? IF YOU ARE A GAMER, HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THIS? OBVIOUSLY, A GAMER WILL GET CAUGHT UP IN A WHIRLWIND OF HIGH PRICES IF HE HOPES TO HUNT DOWN AN IN DEMAND GAME!

I hope you will post on this subject. I know of certain individuals who are in fact, moving it forward!

[neuropolitique]

I don't see how this will succeed. This hobby is too small, both in term of people and money, to support a service like this. Also, the values in this hobby are largely based on rarity, not condition. So while a game may sell for more if it is in minty fresh shape, the bulk of it's price is based on its rarity.

Also other hobbies had rating systems in place long before anyone got into the business of professional grading. We, currently, lack such a system so any pay-for-grade system would be arbitrary, and foreign to most of its intended audience.

Also, paying someone to seal your games is f'n stupid. At that point you may as well collect any other number of things. Bricks, glass bottles, whatever. It's no longer a game, it's a hunk of plastic. I wish more people would just enjoy the hobby instead of trying to make a quick buck off it. Sadly, you and your buddies are doing just that.

Maybe I should introduce a grading system for thimble collectors. Hrmmmm.

[zektor]

I don't see how this will succeed. This hobby is too small, both in term of people and money, to support a service like this. Also, the values in this hobby are largely based on rarity, not condition. So while a game may sell for more if it is in minty fresh shape, the bulk of it's price is based on its rarity.

Also other hobbies had rating systems in place long before anyone got into the business of professional grading. We, currently, lack such a system so any pay-for-grade system would be arbitrary, and foreign to most of its intended audience.

Also, paying someone to seal your games is f'n stupid. At that point you may as well collect any other number of things. Bricks, glass bottles, whatever. It's no longer a game, it's a hunk of plastic. I wish more people would just enjoy the hobby instead of trying to make a quick buck off it. Sadly, you and your buddies are doing just that.

Maybe I should introduce a grading system for thimble collectors. Hrmmmm.

Very well said. I agree 100% here.

[scooterb23]

I absolutely hate grading companies, one of the worst things to happen to the hobby world. And it has infected two of the four main hobby worlds I dabble in.

Grading baseball cards has made it nearly impossible for me to afford older baseball cards I had been looking for. I used to be able to go to a shop, and find some nice cards from the 60s and 70s for decent prices, now all those cards are in these clunky, ugly slabs...and the prices went up 10-20 fold. I just want to own some decent cards of my heroes of the game, the grading of cards pretty much destroyed my love of that hobby.

Now, there are companies grading and slabbing comic books...how stupid is that?

"Wow Bob, nice copy of *insert comic book here* there, what happens in that issue?"

"Well, I don't know...if I wanted to read it, I'd have to open the slab, and ruin the grading."

"Ummm...Ok, how much did you pay for that issue?"

"$450"

"Wow, how much for a copy I could actually read?"

"Around $20"

"..."

Stupid! Stupid! Stupid!

I already don't get people who collect sealed games...games were meant to be played, not stared at. Of course, as happens with most hobbies, people start to realize that money can be made...with absolutely no regard to the original intent of the hobby.

So ideas like this come along...putting grades on games, and sealing them from the world so someone can say "Wow, look how great I am! I have a mint, sealed, 10.0 graded copy of Chrono Trigger! That's worth $2000!!!!!!!"

To me, a game like that would be completely worthless.

I got into video games because I liked sitting around playing games and talking about playing games.

Anymore it just seems like people are more concerned with how much a game is worth, how shiny are the graphics, and which company is "winning the console war." I dunno, but that's not fun, aned not at all the hobby I got into 8 years ago. I get the feeling that if graded games caught on, it'd completely destroy the hobby.

[GrandAmChandler]

Hey let's try to make this hobby more expensive!

Stupid.

EDIT: I also open sealed games, so graded games that are perma-sealed would be opened by me.

-GAC-

[crazyjackcsa]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that most people that get things graded like this are the fringe of the collectors anyway. Sure it does drive prices up. But the people that collect to play will always collect to play. My other hobby is my classic car, It's a 1971 Buick Riviera. A lot of the car market has gone crazy with the Barrett Jackson Auction crap. People move into areas that the collectors aren't, and deal with each other, much like digitpress. The high dollar sealed games will go up. But can anybody see copies of Madden 95 on the genesis ever go for more than a dollar?

[VACRMH]

I think it's a horrible idea. As others said, it will just make it more expensive, and would defeat the entire purpose of owning a game.

I myself enjoy the hunt, finding a game i've always wanted to play in a small store or at a yard sale is what I enjoy. And the best part is getting home to try it out for the first time. Especially if you've been waiting forever, trying to track it down.

[Rob2600]

I think it's a horrible idea...and would defeat the entire purpose of owning a game.

I myself enjoy the hunt...And the best part is getting home to try it out for the first time. Especially if you've been waiting forever, trying to track it down.

I agree. There are also people who collect sealed games, which is just as pointless as paying a company to lock a game in a plastic case. Either way, the games aren't being played.

[kaedesdisciple]

I am also against the whole grading idea. It's a money-making scheme and it only benefits two groups of people: the grading "companies" and eBay.

Grading coins or other things that you would only look at anyway is one thing, but grading and slabbing a piece of software that was meant to be played with in order to be fully enjoyed (by most people anyway)? Count me out.

...10 years from now...

John (looking at Mike's shelf)- "Oh wow, is that a copy of Marvel vs Capcom 2? I loved that game back in the day!"

Mike - "Yea, isn't it beautiful? It's a sealed mint copy, graded 9.5 and worth over $(some ridiculous amount of money)!"

John - "That's great, how do we play it?"

Mike - "Play it?"

[ChronoTriggaFoo]

What drove people to submit their comics and baseball cards by the hoards was pure speculation. It was crazy. I remember. If it was slabbed most people thought they had gold whether or not it was high grade or not. Then census reports came out. Then the glut of this kind of product on eBay, etc. Most people have realized by now its going to take a quality collectible for this sort of investment to be profitable. And a good portion of quality video game collectibles are usually in the hands of astute collectors with a great sense of video game history who I doubt would support this. Sure, you may have a few big sealed games collectors/resellers submit large amounts of their stash, but I can't see this being profitable in the long run with sealed games being a very niche and extremely small segment of the video game community.

Additionally, I can only see this service being for sealed games. Not cartridge only/opened disc-based games. Yes, some people collect cartridges and want them mint, but really they just want something that looks nice for their collection and to have the opportunity to play them as well. And then there's a good amount of people who aren't collecting but just want to play the game.

By the way, I am a hybrid gamer/collector type split down the middle. This is where the majority of people into video games lie in our community. We want to collect AND have the opportunity to play them. I didn't mind owning the craptacular Cheetahmen sealed, but that's because I didn't care to play it and I appreciated its history. Most games I want to pop in and play even if for just a couple minutes. If anything, it may be a better idea selling solid clear cases that can be opened and closed for those sealed/complete/rare games. That may already exist (I haven't looked), but you'll definitely strike a better chord with our community at least.

[y-bot]

You know that AFA has already graded a Star Wars 2600 game, right? I'm not sure if they're taking video game submissions or if that was a one time thing bacause it was Star Wars related. I have lots of experience with third party graded coins and a little with comics and action figures. If you start a business doing this I would say 90% of collectors will hate and 10% will love you. That 10% may be enough to make it worth while. Make sure you hire some experts because I think a couple of mistakes on some resealed or tampered with games would ruin your reputation. There are more like 100 coin grading services now because of Ebay. Most are not companies that take submissions from customers, they are just selling there own coins. Some of the holders aren't even sealed. It's a joke among serious collectors & dealers but novices buy them every day. Ebay just made a new rule to try and end this. Now you can't list a numeric grade in the title unless it is graded by the top 5 companies. There are really only 2 or 3 that matter, the other 2 are almost as bad as the fly by night companies. My opinion on AFA is that it is a fad. Their grading is very inconsistent and if they had any competition they would fold. I don't think the astronomical prices people are paying for AFA graded sealed toys will hold out. Coins have proven themselves and cards & comics graded by the main companies seam to be pretty solid as well. Good luck!

y-bot

[Oobgarm]

Terrible idea. It would be damning to the hobby.

Neuro and Scooter are spot-on with their comments, I have nothing else to add.

[neogamer]

Also, paying someone to seal your games is f'n stupid. At that point you may as well collect any other number of things. Bricks, glass bottles, whatever. It's no longer a game, it's a hunk of plastic. I wish more people would just enjoy the hobby instead of trying to make a quick buck off it. Sadly, you and your buddies are doing just that.

Maybe I should introduce a grading system for thimble collectors. Hrmmmm.

I'm not doing anything as of yet! Please don't put words into my mouth! I said as stated, that I was aprroached by two interested parties for financial backing...nothing more. I then gave you background info (very basic I may add) on third party grading.

Keep in mind, you can crack the plastic slab open! Comic book collectors said the same thing(but you can't read the comic, it's encased in plastic), but now CGC (Comics Guaranty Corp.) has become a standard and they do exactly that, as do all grading companies!

One more thing: some of you guys seem to be missing the point! Have you ever bought a disc based game described as near mint or mint only to get it and realize it wasn't?

TRUSTED and ETHICAL third party grading would eliminate that! Again, that is one of the reasons why collectors pay on average four times as much for sealed games. When I pay $200 for a sealed Dreamcast game(or any other sealed game for that matter) I open it! This service would, I assume, be for both OPENED BUT COMPLETE games as well as FACTORY SEALED GAMES.

Once again, some of you guys need to reread my initial post. I am not directly involved in this project as of now! However, if I give financial backing, I definately will be! That is why I want your two cents! Please feel free to speak up! This affects everybody.

[raregamergirl]

I collect factory sealed games myself and I think this is just a dumb idea. As others have said, factory sealed collecting is such a niche that you can't expect this to take off. I, personally, could care less if some grading company can seal my already sealed game and tell me its rating out of a 10. I would pay zero premium and certainly no fee. The ONLY benefit it would give is knowing whether or not you are purchasing a reseal. Even that is basically useless these days as reseals are not rampant and you can generally get a good idea based on pictures and the seller etc.

Also, people that are ragging on factory sealed collecting- the thing you do not seem to realize is (well, for me at least), collecting factory sealed games is all about the condition. I have a copy that is truly in mint condition. I do not need a grading service to tell me that. Its contents are preserved and are new. There is zero chance you can find the inner contents in better shape (perhaps the same, never better). Even if the grading company graded complete mint games, its inner contents still can't be any better than a factory sealed copy. The box can sometimes be damaged on a factory sealed game, but the value then goes down significantly. You get two copies- a cart only copy if you want to play it and the factory sealed MINT one to collect. If you ever do want to open it, you can.

[scooterb23]

And once you crack the slab, the grading is worthless! So the money you spent on grading is wasted! Or if you buy a graded comic for reading, you spent 10-20 times more than a loose copy of the same book would cost! Again, what a waste! And why am I ending every line with an exclamation point!

[neuropolitique]

Keep in mind, you can crack the plastic slab open! Comic book collectors said the same thing(but you can't read the comic, it's encased in plastic), but now CGC (Comics Guaranty Corp.) has become a standard and they do exactly that, as do all grading companies!

taken from the CGC website

What if I want to take my comic out of your holder?

We anticipated that many collectors would do just that, even though the certified grade will then no longer be applicable without re-certification. That's why our holder is designed to allow optimal observation of the comic book inside. Also, we have designed our holder so that it can be opened carefully, allowing safe removal. Due to the fragile nature of comic books, once our holder is opened, we then recommend the immediate re-certification of the comic book. When Re-Certifying the comic book, this inner label should be returned to CGC for a $5 re-certification credit ($10 off WalkThru Service). After opening, the CGC holder cannot be resealed.

Collectors should remember that the process of certification is designed primarily as a tool for buying and selling that establishes standards in grading consistency for the hobby. Many collectors prefer to leave a comic in its holder for its protection, and to enhance its liquidity if they decide to sell. Leaving the book in its original CGC holder would prevent the need for re-certification and retain the protective strengths of the holder.

So, yes, you can open it. Opening it, however, kills the certification and therefore the value. Feel free to pay them even more money now to re-certify. It's a money making scheme that adds nothing to the hobby. It's just for people looking to make a quick buck.

[XYXZYZ]

I agree that this would suck tremendously if it took off, but just think of how much fun the resistance would be: anti- AFA etc. logos in everyone's sig, petitions and whatnot stating that half the gaming community will never buy from your store again if you sell a graded item, making fun of their supporters with photoshopped gay porn, it'd be another fun hobby to get into.

[neogamer]

taken from the CGC website




So, yes, you can open it. Opening it, however, kills the certification and therefore the value. Feel free to pay them even more money now to re-certify. It's a money making scheme that adds nothing to the hobby. It's just for people looking to make a quick buck.

This is absolutely correct and that is what I stated(or at least hinted at) in my initial post. You would have to re-grade or re-certify the item in question. This debate still "rages" on with comic collectors today.

The point I am arguing is that condition is something collectors take for granted and it is vital. This grading company would grade factrory sealed games as well as complete games that are not factory sealed.

Another point is this: I have bought brand new games and the contents have been damaged. The argument that because something is new it must be mint is a falsehood. Has anybody ever gotten a PS2 game with "shaken manual syndrome?" The manual gets damage from rattling around in the case. This happened with my Odin Sphere game and a few others, however, I buy two copies of every game I own and generally collect the mint one!

There is a need for this service! How wide spread the need is, is another question!

CGC at first had a rough time getting their "business model" off the ground, but now it is widely accepted. Most collectors don't dare buy a comic book sight unseen on eBay without it being CGC certified.

I do understand though, how controversial this topic is! Even certian CGC collectors have problems with their grading practices, etc. However, the company grew so powerful that now the collectors can barely stop it.

[Vectorman0]

This has come up in the past. Every time, you have both people that say they don't want it to happen, and people that say it just won't work. And it won't, for a few reasons. The first is this hobby is too small compared to other hobbies with the grading systems. The second is that there isn't much money involved in game collection compared to other hobbies with grading. The most important is that you will mainly be catering to sealed collectors, and you are not going to be able to tell between fakes and legits with good enough accuracy; eventually you will lose your reputation after grading a few reseals. And to top it all off, you will be hated by everyone here and ruin the hobby; and why would you want to do that? Maybe you are in it for the money, but you seem to have enough as it is.

[Razor Ramon]

Do it yo!

Put your financial backing into it!