The Official Angry Video Game Nerd Discussion Thread

[Gentlegamer]

The next thing that really got me was the comparison of Checkered Flag's visuals to F-Zeros (SNES) and the Nerd's ruling that the SNES game has superior graphics. Seriously, WTF??? Only someone who was wearing their rose colored glasses too tightly would find F-Zero's visuals even remotely passable. He has a point with Cybermorph versus Starfox, but the F-Zero statement just reeks brainless Nintendo favoritism.

Single color polygons and choppy frame rate vs highly colorful sprites and smooth mode 7 scaling: F-Zero wins!

[A Black Falcon]

Yeah, absolutely agreed. F-Zero still looks amazing, with great sprite work, a great sense of style, flawless framerate... not to mention the fantastic gameplay, great controls, and great music, too. " Checkered Flag? Haven't played it, but going by that video, it looks pretty doubtful that it holds up... though comparing it to something 3D, like Stunt Race FX or Virtua Racing (Genesis)/Virtua Racing Deluxe (32X) would make more sense, really, than comparing it to a Mode 7 game.

I do agree, though, that he should have mentioned the serious framerate problems in 3d Super FX SNES games like Star Fox. That above all else makes those games barely playable today... the ones that aren't polyagonal are tolerable (Doom, or Yoshi's Island of course), but Vortex, Star Fox, Stunt Race FX, etc... the low framerates are just brutal. It's very hard to get used to how slow they are.

As for Zool 2, it's a PC/Amiga platformer port... fine game, but yeah, definitely not "next-gen". It's odd that the game wasn't on SNES or Genesis like the first one was, just Jaguar as well as the computer platforms.

[guitargary75]

I can't wait for the 2nd part. It's going to be hilarious!

[CelticJobber]

I felt the first Jaguar video was pretty disappointing as his "comeback" video after being away for a couple of months. Maybe the second part will be alot better though.

[klausien]

In terms of what the Nerd usually puts out there, Atari Jaguar Part 1 was definitely a bit lacking. It wasn't as humorous as his other work, and he didn't highlight that the system was really a European creation, but you can't hit a home run every time. BTW, any and all criticism I make is meant to be entirely constructive (though opinionated!).

[Also, the Lynx may have been a giant, battery-draining beast, and ultimately lost the battle for portable gaming supremacy miserably in its day, but I would argue that it is the greatest hidden gem in the world of portables. The library, with its focus on Atari's arcade titles of the age, is quite excellent and has aged incredibly well... but I digress...]

Back to topic; the video was a synopsis of the system's history, rather than the normal evisceration of a craptastic game or series of games, but everyone is correct in that games he chose for comparisons in Part 1 seemed cherry-picked (intentional or not). Of course 2 Amiga ports are going to look "16-Bit"! Tempest 2000, Missile Command 3D, Rayman, Super Burnout, and many other Jaguar games are much more advanced visually than (almost) anything on the Genesis or SNES.

Take Raiden for instance. Yes, it has a Euro border, but it is a better version of Raiden than any previous port, save maybe the PCE version (pales in comparison to the later PSX port though).

What about Doom or Wolfenstein 3D? Both are vastly superior to their SNES versions, entirely due to hardware power.

Rayman is an infinitely better comparison for Mario and Sonic than Zool 2. He might as well have thrown Bubsy in there!

Iron Soldier had no business being flogged for its graphics. It is one of the best looking games on the system.

Cybermorph and its far superior Jag CD sequel are much more advanced in almost every way when compared to the original StarFox. I love StarFox, don't get me wrong, but it is a rail shooter with a ship made of a couple triangles pasted together. Most of the backgrounds are completely barren of any topography as well. Cybermorph is fully gouraud shaded, and consists entirely of "open world", ground-level stages like those later added to the aborted StarFox 2 & StarFox 64. Yes, it lacks background music during gameplay (one of the reasons Battlemorph is better), while StarFox has an epic score, but come on with the "StarFox looks better than Cybermorph (and Iron Soldier)" stuff.

That said, Checkered Flag has a sh!t frame rate that makes it totally unplayable, while F-Zero is a true neo-classic. He was right on the money there, but one could easily argue that Super Burnout is more spectacular visually than F-Zero.

Oh, and (on a side note) AVP on the Jag also has an awful frame rate, which means it has aged poorly. It is better than any FPS on the other 16-Bitters, but that's not saying much. Most overrated Jaguar game, easily (anyone who thinks T2K takes that title is fooling themselves).

I admit that I am quite fond of the underachieving Jaguar, but I wouldn't consider myself biased towards it. There are probably more poor games for it than good ones (I'm a fan, but also a realist), and the CD add-on is only vital for music fans interested in the absolutely killer VLM (or Battlemorph). The controller gets a bad rap generally, though they should have just gone with the extra, less-mushy buttons of the Pro Controller in the first place. The Jag has its faults, but to say it pales in comparison to the Genesis and SNES from a technical standpoint is just a bit, well, ridiculous.

When all is said and done, of course James has his own opinion/bias, and I respect that. No matter what, it's always nice to see someone shine a light on a cool obscurity like the Jaguar. Looking forward to part 2!

[Rob2600]

The Jag has its faults, but to say it pales in comparison to the Genesis and SNES from a technical standpoint is just a bit, well, ridiculous.

I think the AVGN's point was that Atari hyped the Jaguar up as an awesome new monster 64-bit machine...Do the math!...yet, the graphics were barely better (sometimes worse) than the older 16-bit SNES. What happened to the extra 48 bits??

[swlovinist]

As an owner of a Jaguar(among many other consoles), I liked part 1. I think that AVGN could have totally just ripped on the system but instead made are more educated video on explaining why the Jaguar failed. I thought that it was pretty good and look forward to part 2. AVGN reviews are either loved or hated. Reviewing the Jaguar is kind of like Reveiwing the Neo Geo stuff...some of hardcore obscure fanboys of these systems will get pissed off if not done a certain way.
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[Graham Mitchell]

I think it's important when watching videos like this to keep in mind that a) taste is subjective and b) this is for entertainment purposes and not really meant to be informative (even if it is indirectly).

The nerd has ripped on stuff I actually think is underrated, particularly Dragon's Lair on the NES. I used to get all uppity and try and defend this stuff because I had the delusion that I was smarter than everyone else and/or that others opinions were wrong. As difficult as it can be, I try to keep that in mind.

That said, Jaguar, like NES Dragon's Lair, has some problems. It has some good points as well, but people who can forgive its faults are likely to defend the system while those who can't...won't. It's subjective.

[Tupin]

Speaking of Neo-Geo, that's the other video of his that I've been looking forward to seeing.

Oh, and it sucks that his Jaguar CD is broken, the few games on the system would make for a great video. Speaking of the oddly built Jaguar, it LOOKS like it uses off the shelf parts, but I guess not. Maybe the off the shelf parts end at the VGA-style controller ports.

[Jorpho]

stuff I actually think is underrated, particularly Dragon's Lair on the NES

Buh? Please elaborate.

[jcalder8]

It's not a bad start but I hope he pulls out all the stops for the second part.

[A Black Falcon]

Buh? Please elaborate.

Maybe he's referring to the twice-as-fast-speed European version? It doesn't seem that just faster play would save it from being one of the most frustrating things ever, though...

[Gameguy]

The nerd has ripped on stuff I actually think is underrated, particularly Dragon's Lair on the NES.

Okay, you just lost your credibility right there. I played the north american version and it's truly horrible. There are games that I just don't like but are still playable, just not my taste. Dragon's Lair for the NES isn't one of them, I'm really glad I sold it off. I actually blocked my memories of this game, but your post reminded me of them. Thanks for that.

[boatofcar]

I'd love it if the AVGN ripped the Neo Geo. The amount of nerd rage would be epic.

[Zap!]

I'd love it if the AVGN ripped the Neo Geo. The amount of nerd rage would be epic.

And for good reason. I hope he reviews the RCA Studio II.

[Sonicwolf]

Okay, you just lost your credibility right there. I played the north american version and it's truly horrible. There are games that I just don't like but are still playable, just not my taste. Dragon's Lair for the NES isn't one of them, I'm really glad I sold it off. I actually blocked my memories of this game, but your post reminded me of them. Thanks for that.

I have found myself actually liking one of the games he shat on horribly. (Literally) Nightmare on Elm street. I find it pretty fun, challenging and he really made it look a lot worse than it was. Its not as frustrating as he made it out. (Although the bosses are ridiculously impossible as you progress)

[A Black Falcon]

I have found myself actually liking one of the games he shat on horribly. (Literally) Nightmare on Elm street. I find it pretty fun, challenging and he really made it look a lot worse than it was. Its not as frustrating as he made it out. (Although the bosses are ridiculously impossible as you progress)

I liked TMNT 1 (I had the PC version of the NES game, specifically) when I was younger... of course, I never beat the second level (the dam level, that is), but it was Ninja Turtles, so I liked it anyway. I sure could tell that it was nowhere near as good as the arcade games, though... but of course, they were pretty much my favorite arcade games ever at the time.

[Graham Mitchell]

Well, Dragon's Lair on the NES looks damn good for one thing, and I have a feeling that what they were going for is some kind of simulation of the arcade version's gameplay. For some reason everybody remembers the arcade game fondly, but to the uninitiated it's a frustrating mess where you're shown the same 10-second scene over and over again because you can't figure what the hell you're supposed to be doing (the very first level with the drawbridge took me forever to figure out when I was a kid.)

That frustration comes from the fact that you literally have to memorize every scene, and that's exactly how the NES version works. It looks deceptively like a platformer, but it's not in some ways. Certain aspects of the gameplay don't follow the typical platforming formulas (for example, you must continue walking on floating platforms or they slide right out from under your feet.)

With a little practice, Dragon's Lair on the NES can be fun and interesting because the game totally makes up it's own rules--you have to throw out most of what you learned from Super Mario Brothers. You cannot use reflexes or timing to beat that game. You have to figure out what it wants and do it with precision. Some games still operate this way today, like Mirror's Edge. A lot of people hate that concept because it IS frustrating, and it will arrest your progress through the game until you can figure out exactly what you're supposed to do. But once you get it right, and you can duplicate it over and over, it's pretty rewarding, and you start to have a lot of fun.

But, that's me, that's my taste. I like the feeling of being challenged and overcoming the obstacles, and that's just the way I look at things. I don't expect everybody to agree with me, but maybe you didn't think about the game in this way before.

[mnbren05]

I agree with most of what he said about the Jaguar. I always thought the games would be more interesting but when I played them for myself I did not find a single one appealing. I also dislike the shape of the carts and the fact that none of them have end labels.

[Graham Mitchell]

I agree with most of what he said about the Jaguar. I always thought the games would be more interesting but when I played them for myself I did not find a single one appealing. I also dislike the shape of the carts and the fact that none of them have end labels.

Not even Tempest 2000? That's the one I always liked...