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Thread: Goal Achieved: Completed PS2 RPG Collection 163 games (Pic Alert)

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daria View Post
    Man I hate when people do this, it's one thing to suggest titles but if he doesn't want to include them in his personal list that his call. He set a personal goal and achieved it. This argument would be better suited for the other topic where he's trying to establish a definitive list for others to use.
    The fact that he has titles that like Orphen, a game that has no RPG elements whatsoever and several other games that don't have as many RPG elements and have the same gameplay, this is arguing over contradictions in his list. He's even said he has the game. The other list has Orphen but doesn't have this either btw.

    And didn't notice this before but Dirge of Cerberus Final Fantasy 7 isn't in his list either, but let me guess, that's not an RPG either right. If that's the case, I own every RPG on the PS2. Oh, those ones I don't have or haven't listed, I just don't count those as RPGs. That's how that works.

    *edit*

    Oh, and Phantasy Star Universe is there, but not Phantasy Star Universe Ambition of the Illuminus, which is the games sequel/expansion, isn't.
    Last edited by kupomogli; 11-20-2015 at 03:01 PM.
    Everything in the above post is opinion unless stated otherwise.

  2. #102
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    To be fair, I'm also in the "yakuza is an action rpg" camp.
    "Kidnap the presidents wife without a plan..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by kupomogli View Post
    The fact that he has titles that like Orphen, a game that has no RPG elements whatsoever and several other games that don't have as many RPG elements and have the same gameplay, this is arguing over contradictions in his list. He's even said he has the game. The other list has Orphen but doesn't have this either btw.

    And didn't notice this before but Dirge of Cerberus Final Fantasy 7 isn't in his list either, but let me guess, that's not an RPG either right. If that's the case, I own every RPG on the PS2. Oh, those ones I don't have or haven't listed, I just don't count those as RPGs. That's how that works.

    *edit*

    Oh, and Phantasy Star Universe is there, but not Phantasy Star Universe Ambition of the Illuminus, which is the games sequel/expansion, isn't.
    Nah, that's not how that works. I don't arbitrary eliminate or include games depending on ownership. This would be just plain silly; rather on a pretty inclusionary RPG understanding which still makes it necessary to draw lines. BTW, 'Phantasy Star Universe Ambition of the Illuminus' you claim is arbitrarily eliminated is on the list AND pictured in my collection. (second post of this thread, fourth picture from the top) I also own Dirge of Cerberus but didn't put in on the list.

    FF MMoRPGs? Sorry, there are on the list but I'm just not interested in them. This is my decision for my lil' game library you just have to accept. This is an arbitrary decision indeed.

    Sorry, I mixed up the two Castlevania games. (Long time since I played them) With the game I loved I meant indeed Lament of Innocence which gave you a great sense of exploration and discovery, and, you're right, Curse of Darkness wasn't a good game at all. LoI I finished, CoD I gave up halfway through becasue it just wasn't fun.

    About the crux of the discussion: it is about the lack of a generally agreed upon definition of a RPG. I can only repeat what I wrote in this thread a long time ago in 2008 responding to two guys who had the same concerns like you:


    "The lack of consistency is intentional because there was no better alternative. If we could agree on a definition with standards for a RPG we would certainly achieve consistency. Basically I sacrificed consistency on the altar of inclusion of borderline cases.

    The reasons are twofold.

    First, it would take a long time to agree on a definition, and once agreed we’d have problems with newly released games which stretch the genre again and change the need for a definition. (Deus Ex, Mass Effect) The time factor shouldn’t be underestimated; so far we still don’t have a useable and generally agreed definition after years of discussion.

    Second, no matter how we define a RPG, no matter if we choose a minimal definition or an extensive content definition, we’ll always end up with questionable cases. We’ll always end up with games we want to include but fall outside of the definition, and vice versa.

    Let’s say we define a RPG as a game which has to fulfill all of the following essential technical gameplay standards, ( which were proposed and discussed already years ago and I remember off the hat because I proposed and discussed some of them):

    1) Some kind of statistics which define and describe certain attributes or skills of game characters.
    2) The famous leveling-up, that means some kind of method to influence (increase) these statistics for characters.
    3) There must be a menu for combat, just broadly a menu-driven combat system.

    There are other standards proposed which may or may not be included as necessary conditions such as complex storylines, the latter is very weak one and shouldn’t be included imo.

    You’ll always end up with cases which will raise eyebrows. Secret of Mana out, Alundra out, Popful Mail out. They fulfill two standards, but not a third one. Then you’ll always end up with cases which fulfill 1) and 2), but are just halfway there in the third standard category. Then you’ll end up with maybes like Disgaea and FF Tactics (Menu driven combat - yes, but still grid placement influences the battle; is it just a strategy game or a RPG?))

    The point is, you’ll gain more consistency without any doubt when you have clearly defined standards.

    But even with stricter standards there are always cases in which the feeling takes over – just enough gameplay elements for a category, or they fall just short to fulfill a category.

    You’ll always end up with certain gameplay elements of another genre (see the above FF Tactics with strategy elements, replaceable with action elements and elements from many other genres). That’s why we have the genre combinations action/RPG, strategy RGP, and so many others.

    In the last ten years we have the development tendency towards the hybrid game. I like it. Even in sports games we have now elements of statistical skill attributes which were once used only in RPGs. The result are the above mentioned genre benders which makes it even more difficult to agree on clearly defined RPG standards. It is more a matter of “feeling” even in the case of applied RPG-standards if certain RPG elements are essential gameplay elements or just used to color a game with or give it a mood of a RPG. In some posts of the original thread I discussed some of those cases.

    The very simple reason I avoided a RPG definition for the list (AND my collection) is its recommendation character. It was designed to be as inclusionary as possible and not as the ‘ultimate’ RPG list. In the end everyone can add or remove titles for his personal list. However, I admit that the term "complete" is misleading because ther is no such thing.

    The titles you address are indeed questionable for a strict RPG list, and there is an unavoidable lack of consistency. Facing big hurdles of defining standards, another option is simply to put ten or more of these titles in the borderline category. (Nine of them are currently in there) But then we’ll loose again the leeway recommendation character of the list."


    You see, the list is not as arbitrary and thoughtless as you assumed. And let's face it: if we can agree upon 90% of the titles in the main list (and I'm sure we can), that's good enough for me.

  4. #104
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    I don't think Yakuza is an action RPG, but if you're going to list something like Orphen, Evergrace, and Forever Kingdom, then you should also add Yakuza and Curse of Darkness to that list.

    *edit*

    This was in response to laughingman. I did read your post afterwards and I get how you add games to the list if they follow specific mechanics, still don't get why other ones that follow the mechanics more than the others or just as much so don't get added, but whatever, it's your list.

    Additionally, like you said, we're in agreement on 90%+ of the games, so congrats on the list still. I meant that regardless of the argument of the games that are and aren't included.
    Last edited by kupomogli; 11-20-2015 at 05:15 PM.
    Everything in the above post is opinion unless stated otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kupomogli View Post
    I don't think Yakuza is an action RPG, but if you're going to list something like Orphen, Evergrace, and Forever Kingdom, then you should also add Yakuza and Curse of Darkness to that list.
    I don't know about Orphen or Yakuza, but Evergrace and Forever Kingdom are both standard action rpgs. I don't understand your beef with them.

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    I generally consider this the definitive list. I am happy to let others determine what is and is not an RPG. It seems that there are not too many games that are debatable (to most). Those games I simply deem borderline; and given that they are not the rarest of games -- I just assume I'll buy them anyway.

    Now, given that this is the 'definitive list' and I have been collecting from the old list I now have to pursue these new additions...darn.

    Thanks for the list, thanks for the pics, thanks for your contribution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daria View Post
    I don't know about Orphen or Yakuza, but Evergrace and Forever Kingdom are both standard action rpgs. I don't understand your beef with them.
    I actually really like both games, but they're action adventure with slight RPG elements. The skills all come from armor and accessories, and then you have the ability to upgrade equipment to make it more powerful in the shop. They can be upgraded, but upgrading makes little difference so while the element is there, it's not a huge aspect on the game, it's very very minor. I only chose those games because they have similar gameplay. Dark Cloud isn't much of an RPG other than leveling weapons. Harvest Moon isn't an RPG at all, unless Farming Simulator 2016 is now an RPG. Steambot Chronicles is another game that's called an RPG because it's open world environment, but RPG aspects are non existent in the game. You do all the same things in Yakuza, that you do in Steambot Chronicles as side activities. If it's the difference in combat because of the customization, Steambot Chronicles only has the character swapping parts to make a more powerful mech, it's not like there are RPG elements with the character upgrading stats. The only difference between mech combat in Steambot Chronicles and Armored Core, aside from Armored Core having much more fluid combat and much more customization, is that on Steambot Chronicles enemy damage is listed on a visible bar on the screen and battles are done in an open world environment while exploring. You wouldn't call Mega Man Legends an RPG though and that's pretty much identical to Steambot Chronicles in terms of combat and world design.

    The only reason I chose the ones I did is because they were much more similar in design to the ones I was comparing, but there are more in the list that could have been argued against as well(as I did above.) But I didn't argue about these because hey, he sees these games as RPGs, I personally don't look at them as RPGs as they have no major elements of RPGs to them. Instead I stayed focused to argue about the games that are very similar and less of an RPG than one of the ones I was pointing out, Curse of Darkness, and like I said, I think Curse of Darkness sucks(and enjoy Evergrace and Forever Kingdom,) but it's more of an RPG than they are. Orphen, not an RPG at all.
    Everything in the above post is opinion unless stated otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kupomogli View Post
    I actually really like both games, but they're action adventure with slight RPG elements. The skills all come from armor and accessories, and then you have the ability to upgrade equipment to make it more powerful in the shop. They can be upgraded, but upgrading makes little difference so while the element is there, it's not a huge aspect on the game, it's very very minor. I only chose those games because they have similar gameplay. Dark Cloud isn't much of an RPG other than leveling weapons. Harvest Moon isn't an RPG at all, unless Farming Simulator 2016 is now an RPG. Steambot Chronicles is another game that's called an RPG because it's open world environment, but RPG aspects are non existent in the game. You do all the same things in Yakuza, that you do in Steambot Chronicles as side activities. If it's the difference in combat because of the customization, Steambot Chronicles only has the character swapping parts to make a more powerful mech, it's not like there are RPG elements with the character upgrading stats. The only difference between mech combat in Steambot Chronicles and Armored Core, aside from Armored Core having much more fluid combat and much more customization, is that on Steambot Chronicles enemy damage is listed on a visible bar on the screen and battles are done in an open world environment while exploring. You wouldn't call Mega Man Legends an RPG though and that's pretty much identical to Steambot Chronicles in terms of combat and world design.

    The only reason I chose the ones I did is because they were much more similar in design to the ones I was comparing, but there are more in the list that could have been argued against as well(as I did above.) But I didn't argue about these because hey, he sees these games as RPGs, I personally don't look at them as RPGs as they have no major elements of RPGs to them. Instead I stayed focused to argue about the games that are very similar and less of an RPG than one of the ones I was pointing out, Curse of Darkness, and like I said, I think Curse of Darkness sucks(and enjoy Evergrace and Forever Kingdom,) but it's more of an RPG than they are. Orphen, not an RPG at all.
    I agree with you not in the case of every game, but for a good part of them! I know that there are inconsistencies in the RPG-list. But they are unavoidable.

    Over more than three years many guys proposed games I overlooked and I added them and I removed games fom the list which some said shouldn't be there, and they had good reasons for it.

    Why are then around 10 games in the main list which are questionable? Because I wanted intentionally include them for the sake of having a list as complete as possible. If 50% would say YES to a game and 50% would say NO, I choose to include it. Then you still have to draw a line because there are other similar games in gameplay mechanics in order to flavor a game with some RPG-elements. THis means you are inconsistent, but you have to be; otherwise we would end up with God of War and Maddens. (no kiiding)

    There are so many RPG elements in some games nowadays that an elusive 'feeling' and 'atmosphere' of a game takes over. Even the heritage of a game series. Let's say the Castlevania series would have been in the 80s and 90s a RPG like Dragon Quest. I'm very sure that in RPG lists Symphony of the Night and Curse of Darkness would appear in the lists with the same exact gameplay mechanics. Some would argue they shouldn't actually be in these lists, but becasue of the roots of the series and the still existent RPG-elements I would include the game. Is this inconsistent? You bet, but that is because we have no RPG-Definition the Holy Ghost sent us as a gift.

    It all depends on the starting point: how strict your definition of a RPG is and how strict you interpret these standards for every game. I choose to be as inclusionary as possible and at the same time minimize the unavoidable inconsistency. This seems to me a better way than the application of a very strict RPG-Definition which doesn't include Secret of Mana, Alundra, Popful Mail, Disgaea, Shadow Hearts or Suikoden Tactics.

    As I said, 10 games in the main list and the borderline games are questionable, but if the rest gives reliable, great information and an overview of RPGs we all can agree upon, that is good enough for me. I'm neither the RPG-Pope nor am I more papal than the Pope. (old German saying)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trebuken View Post
    I generally consider this the definitive list. I am happy to let others determine what is and is not an RPG. It seems that there are not too many games that are debatable (to most). Those games I simply deem borderline; and given that they are not the rarest of games -- I just assume I'll buy them anyway.

    Now, given that this is the 'definitive list' and I have been collecting from the old list I now have to pursue these new additions...darn.

    Thanks for the list, thanks for the pics, thanks for your contribution.
    Thanks guy! This is exactly the reason why started the RPG list. I just wanted to play RPGs, noticed that there are a lot of them out there for the PS2, and wanted just an alphabetical list of titles so I don't miss important games. And then the ball started rolling...and I had no idea what to expect for the next couple of years.

    Some pointed out that there are deluxe sets, some pointed out that there is a soundtrack CD in a regular case and that the game is also available in a regular edition, some said that there are variants of CD labels, some pointed out inconsistencies of SLUS numbers: in short, the list grew and grew and information was amassed.

    I did all of that to have an overview of the RPGs, and to make sure that if we buy used games we have a reference list to look up the contents of special editions. That's why the lists for games with extra content is there, because no matter if you buy a used game in a Gamestop or on ebay, there was no online listing which told you what was the detailed content of an edition.

    The list is now the most informative and the most reliable online. (and got quite a few of copy and paste jobs of people who claim that they compiled this list ) This is not fishing for compliments because the RPG-listing is only so good and informative because so many guys contributed to them. I would have overlooked so many details and introduced so many false information, I was really thankful for a lot of members who pointed out that some games should be included or removed, that editions are missing, that there are different SLUS numbers, that there are variants of CD labels or regular packaging. The list goes on and on. One guy cannot have this overview, but if a lot of people with all their knowledge check the listings they find mistakes which can be corrected, and this way you end up with very reliable information.

    So, the thanks should go to all of the guys and girls who contributed to the RPG-list.

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