It begins.... Video game grading

[Bronty-2]

I think that everyone should set the keyboard aside, open the windows in your parrents basement where you live and let the sun shine in. Stop with all the negitavity! If you don't like it, don't do it! Move on.

^ post of the year. I like how the people that are the most bent are the ones least likely to actually buy sealed games anyways

[smokehouse]

I think the point was that given the opportunity to purchase the game for $500 only a fool would pass that up, given it could be sold for ~2 grand.

If there was a stipulation that I couldn't sell the game, then yeah, hell no!

Give me a break...while we're living in this fantasy world...why not say that I'd make a move if I could get a gold brick for $300...not happening...

I don't collect sealed games...if you do, then bust out the wallet or stop collecting. Sealed items cost money, get used to it. personally, it think it's fucking stupid to pay that much $$ for something in shrink wrap but to each their own. As to the grading issue, with all of the people looking to turn a quick buck by resealing games and charging out the ass for them and screwing people (you know, like the guys that get the shaft and come here bitching about it)...I think a grading scale is a good thing if you really want my opinion. The resellers are getting better and if you want to plop down hundreds to thousands of dollars based only on a picture your sent on the internet...suit yourself.

[Roufuss]

I don't see what all the Hub-Bub is about. If someone wants to be sure that a game is a genuine sealed game, why not offer a service that guarantees that it is a sealed game.

I assume that whoever is going the grading can tell the difference between factory sealed and a resealed. Just like Beckett or PSA can tell the differance between a real and a fake baseball or hockey card.

So to all the people who are getting all bent about sending re-seales to them to get them graded, just chill. If they say it is a factory seal, and want to give it a grade, then great! If someone wants to pay for the sealed game great, if you don't wanna pay the premium then fine - don't!

How many threads are there on DigitalPress discussing the authenticity of sealed games? So someone came up with a way to grade games so when they are on the secondary market you can be assured that they are genuine factory sealed games. I wish I had put the money into starting this up.

I think that everyone should set the keyboard aside, open the windows in your parrents basement where you live and let the sun shine in. Stop with all the negitavity! If you don't like it, don't do it! Move on.

It's a grand idea, until the one time they slip up and grade a reseal, and then their entire business is down the tubes, because who would take them seriously at that point?

I see people's points, that this will do nothing but drive the cost of some games up.. I assume they would start grading non sealed games too? I mean, I can imagine if people start grading Radiant Silvergun's, and suddenly an Ebay seller wants $400 for his because it got a 9.0 from the VGA.

What I'm worried about is these rating will do nothing but artifically boost prices even higher, where they are, imo, too damn high in the first place for a handful of games. Similar to how the CGC merely boosted the value of comics, while not really doing a lot for collectors themselves.

Imagine the only way to get decent money on your RS is to now slab it? I know I don't want to pay more money simply because it has plastic on it and some guys opinion of the quality.

If I somehow slipped up, and they are only grading sealed games, then awesome, but if they are grading all manners of games, I just see the prices going even further up. Because even if it's sealed games, for now, I can see it eventually being non sealed but still complete games.

[98PaceCar]

^ post of the year. I like how the people that are the most bent are the ones least likely to actually buy sealed games anyways

So I'm curious (only pointed at you since I know you are involved in this, at least in an advisory role). Currently this is only for sealed games, correct? Are there plans to do CIB or even loose? What systems does it currently cover or will they grade any sealed game?

If this is truly limited to sealed games, the impact to non-sealed collectors will be lessened, but there will be impact. Once the less scrupulous dealers and resellers decide that they can make real money on games, you can bet that the prices of everything will go up due to speculating on the market. That $5 loose NES game sitting at the local flea market will suddenly go up because they will assume that since it has a nice label, it would grade high and is worth more. Once there is something to compare to, the prices will go up, even if the comparison is in no way valid. The same thing happened when ebay gained enough popularity...

[Icarus Moonsight]

I don't see what all the Hub-Bub is about. If someone wants to be sure that a game is a genuine sealed game, why not offer a service that guarantees that it is a sealed game.

Because they can't! You can not completely verify the contents of a sealed package until it's opened. I honestly can not believe people are buying this crap. Shame on you people. Bad gamer! NO! *rolls up a newspaper and points it* Bad!

[boatofcar]

Because they can't! You can not completely verify the contents of a sealed package until it's opened. I honestly can not believe people are buying this crap. Shame on you people. Bad gamer! NO! *rolls up a newspaper and points it* Bad!

Seriously man, chill. Do you not think the technology exists to verify the contents of a sealed game?

For all the complainers: how many of you have actually bought sealed games on ebay? If you haven't, none of this actually applies to you, so why are you bitching?

[boatofcar]

I don't know if the idea will collapse or not. The reason it caught on in other collectable hobbies is always because of the subjective nature of describing condition.

I have no experience with comics, but have plenty in Star Wars. Truth is, it's tough to trust a seller's notion of the condition of their sealed figure (for example), because they have an inherent bias. In theory, the AFA eliminates that bias to help the buyer have an idea of exactly what they're getting. AFA 90 and above are harder to come by, and will command an appropriate price.

As this relates to video games (sealed only, as I do think that it is impossible to do this with open/CIB games), the VGA is banking on the same principle applying. However, as I mentioned before, the cost of grading/entombing the sealed game would only help to dissuade anyone from submitting a sealed game with a normal value of $50 or less (which by my count, is more than half of the library.) For example: You can buy several sealed games on ebay with great regularity for $20-$25. Is it possible that they may be in outstanding condition but not a 10/10? Certainly. Is it worth the additional $20+ dollars that would have to be rolled back into the selling cost to cover the VGA service? No. Not when the pictures you can see or request will dispell questions about condition in most cases. A 100% increase on a common title to cover that service cost would not make any sense to potential buyers. The value is less, and has probably remained so over the last decade. Paying $40 for a $20 game (not even including shipping) simply won't fly with any regularity. Reason being, the risk associated with buying a $20 sealed game and having it arrive in slightly less than the condition you desired doesn't cost anything. You can resell without losing money. On the other hand, paying extra for someone to confirm that it's in the exact grade you already think it is, is meaningless.

So, as I said in the other thread, this only makes sense if the normal value is high enough to cover the cost of the service without increasing the cost to potential buyers (ie. the extra $20 is trival on a $500 purchase), AND if the risk involved is great enough to require an elimination of subjectivity from the grading process.

Honestly though, if you're planning on spending $1400 (on let's say, a sealed Chubby Cherub), I'm fairly certain that you can get as many pictures as you'd like to confirm the condition. Having it graded independently would serve no real purpose at that point.

I don't know how this will turn out. There are so many retards out there who spend a ton of money on sealed games (not sure why, exactly) - but you've all seen them on ebay. We've already started to witness an increase in prices of CIB games in nice condition ($100 on Zelda, for example), so I have no doubt in my mind that this will only increase negatively on CIB collecting as the VGA begins to filter down through the hobby.

It's not evil, but it sure as hell is irritating and won't serve any purpose to the long term CIB collector, except make the hobby more expensive than it already is.

I find it less than ironic that two of the greater proponents (on this site) of this advent in collecting either have everything to gain, or no real reason to oppose it.

No offense to either of you, but Bronty, you have a huge, valuable, sealed collection - so this can only benefit you should you choose to take advantage; and Dangevin, you don't collect boxed games, let alone sealed ones, so you have nothing to gain or lose either way. If this succeeds, it doesn't affect you, and if it doesn't; same result.

Like I said, no offense to either of you, I certainly have nothing against either of you - it's just an observation.

All of this is just my opinion, but I've been around this hobby and another that was directly affected (negatively) by the advent of this type of grading service.

Oh, I'm not sure what to formally refer to the hobby as, but I can say that we should all describe ourselves as having ObNESsive Compulsive Disorder.

(link)

[TonyTheTiger]

Seriously man, chill. Do you not think the technology exists to verify the contents of a sealed game?

For all the complainers: how many of you have actually bought sealed games on ebay? If you haven't, none of this actually applies to you, so why are you bitching?

Mostly because there might be side effects beyond just a price jump in sealed games. See my earlier post. And also because I find the grading of any collectible and the resulting price jump to be arbitrary.

The principle behind grading is sound. It does remove the subjective nature of describing an item to a point. But in actual practice, I find it to have some very bizarre results. Namely, a graded item selling for more than an ungraded item in better condition. Also, the inevitable bias against ungraded items essentially forcing people to pay the grading fee to even get any respect on the market.

I think, though, it's kind of hard these days to really "trick" a buyer into paying top dollar for a less than spectacular product. Even the most casual Ebayer is cautious about "stock photos" and poor quality ones that could easily hide flaws.

And unlike with comics, where a random page in the middle of the book might be trashed while everything else looks great, a sealed video game can only have so many things wrong with it. If you see the front, back, and edges, you pretty much know what you're getting.

I think you said it yourself. That big time coin collectors can make a lucrative business out of buying a graded coin, resubmitting it, and hopefully getting a higher rating. If this is true, then doesn't that alone cast a shadow on the whole concept of grading? Obviously a coin's condition isn't going to improve over time so the only conclusion is that the initial submission resulted in a bad call. Maybe this isn't highly common (I don't know anything about the business) but if it does happen then that's just more ammo for my "arbitrary" argument.

It all comes down to the difference between "guideline" and "gospel." A grading system should be a guideline. But they always end up functioning as a gospel which ends up screwing things up more than anything.

[boatofcar]

I think, though, it's kind of hard these days to really "trick" a buyer into paying top dollar for a less than spectacular product. Even the most casual Ebayer is cautious about "stock photos" and poor quality ones that could easily hide flaws.

And unlike with comics, where a random page in the middle of the book might be trashed while everything else looks great, a sealed video game can only have so many things wrong with it. If you see the front, back, and edges, you pretty much know what you're getting.

I think you said it yourself. That big time coin collectors can make a lucrative business out of buying a graded coin, resubmitting it, and hopefully getting a higher rating. If this is true, then doesn't that alone cast a shadow on the whole concept of rating? Obviously a coin's condition isn't going to improve over time so the only conclusion is that the initial submission resulted in a bad call. Maybe this isn't highly common (I don't know anything about the business) but if it does happen then that's just more ammo for my "arbitrary" argument.

These are all good points. The analogy with resubmitting coins could certainly apply to video games, though I can't see it getting to that point for a while, because there's a lot of folks grading over at ANACS and I assume only a few grading video games now. Also, when you resubmit your game, you're throwing another $20 or whatever down the drain, and not many games are worth it monetarily to do that with, especially since the market hasn't dictated exactly how much more people are willing to pay for an 8 game than an 8.5 game.

[TonyTheTiger]

The difference between an 8 and an 8.5 itself might be arbitrary. How do these graders reach a conclusion? Do they put the thing to a microscope? If you need special equipment to tell the difference between an 8 and a 9 or a 9 and a 10 then that means two things:

1) Even most games at shipment aren't pristine.
2) To someone just looking at the thing, the grade means nothing.

Forget about resealing. You might start seeing people try to imitate the official grading.

[boatofcar]

1) Even most games at shipment aren't pristine.

I don't think anyone would argue that. That goes for every collectible, from coins to stamps to comics.

2) To someone just looking at the thing, the grade means nothing.

Other than the price between an 8 and a 9, yes, you're right. I don't imagine there's going to be a whole lot of difference upon casual inspection between an 8 or a 9, or even a 7 and an 8.

Forget about resealing. You might start seeing people try to imitate the official grading.

Which is why it's good AFA is behind this, who have safeguards in place to prevent people from altering the slab itself.

[rpepper9]

So what I am seeing is that people are worried about the fact that a re-seal could get by, and are even thinking of sending re-seals to get graded. WHY? What do you care. First off I would assume that they have thought of the reseal factor and have people who would weed such games out. So the next question is why do people hate the idea that games could be graded?

Wouldn't you like to know that the game you are going to possibly be paying hundreds of dollars for has been looked at and verified by some 3rd party? How many times have people complained about getting reseals on Digital Press. I recall a guy who recently paid big bucks for a Sealed FF VII only to get it and see that it was not sealed, and that the back tray liner had the green "greatest hits" spine. If that game was graded, I won't say that there would be "no question" that it was authentic, but it would be less in doubt if it was graded.

I see this as a good thing good thing for the hobby. If people are going to shell out for sealed games, the grading system will insure that at least someone other than the seller has looked at the game. Two sets of eyes are better than one.

Personally I would love to have a Wayne Gretzky Rookie card. But I know there are lots of counterfeit cards out there, so I will pay extra to have one that is BGS or PSA graded. I would rather pay 800.00 for a graded Gretzky rookie than to take a chance and purchase an ungraded card for 500.00. Think about it, we all know that eBay and PayPal won't do shit for you if you feel you got screwed in a transaction. So why take a chance with something that could be fake, when you can be guaranteed that you are getting the real thing?

Lets put the above example in gaming terms. You are on ebay and you see a sealed FFIII, you mention the listing on the digital press. What is the first thing that happens? People start critiquing every aspect of the game. Someone says "that shrink wrap line is crooked" or "look at the corners", or "look at the corner wear". No matter what the seller says, the seed of doubt has been planted in your head, and you are wondering if you should place a bid. You are going to spend hundreds of dollars on something that you cannot even verify is a factory seal. You are going on what the seller lists in the auction, and most people who are "in the know" are saying it may not be a genuine factory seal.

If you have been on Digital Press for any amount of time, you have probably seen a posting similar to what I am describing. I know it would be best if you could take a look at the game in question "in hand" to physically hold the game and make your own decision, but if you are buying online this is not possible. So what is the next best thing? Would it be possible to have someone else look at the game and verify, to the best of their professional ability, that the game is really a factory seal?

How many people go out and buy a new car, or a house, without asking someone else's opinion on the purchase? So look at the grading of video games as that second opinion. No more speculation. If you are collecting sealed games this is a good tool to have. Pay a little more for the grade, and the insurance that it is a genuine sealed game.

If you are not collecting sealed games.... stop posting in this thread. You are not buying, so what does it matter to you? Why do you want to see this person fail? Be happy! Stop the bashing!

[TonyTheTiger]

Ugh. We already went through multiple examples of what other side effects grading could have on the industry.

[Icarus Moonsight]

If you are not collecting sealed games.... stop posting in this thread. You are not buying, so what does it matter to you? Why do you want to see this person fail? Be happy! Stop the bashing!

Who says I'm not buying? I've bought sealed games in the past and recently so I do have a stake in this. Furthermore, it is my contention (and I'm not alone) that this will spread and effect all retro gamers and collectors in some degree (whom will be effected and the severity is yet to be seen but, once done it can not be taken back - care is required).

I like to see all bad ideas fail - there is nothing unique about this situation. Why so concerned about silencing an opposing view point? Or is it that you can't rebut so, to save face you throw out a thinly veiled, yet polite, STFU? I believe I am entitled to my contempt. Now I know I've earned it. Thanks.

[rpepper9]

Who says I'm not buying? I've bought sealed games in the past and recently so I do have a stake in this. Furthermore, it is my contention (and I'm not alone) that this will spread and effect all retro gamers and collectors in some degree (whom will be effected and the severity is yet to be seen but, once done it can not be taken back - care is required).

I like to see all bad ideas fail - there is nothing unique about this situation. Why so concerned about silencing an opposing view point? Or is it that you can't rebut so, to save face you throw out a thinly veiled, yet polite, STFU? I believe I am entitled to my contempt. Now I know I've earned it. Thanks.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that people didn't have a stake in this. I am just trying to say do what is best for your collection, and leave others to do what is best for their collection.

[smork]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that people didn't have a stake in this. I am just trying to say do what is best for your collection, and leave others to do what is best for their collection.

But it affects everyone! I don't go out of my way to collect sealed, but I do go for ultra-minty and new games (lots of the ones I buy don't come sealed) and quite frankly I don't want my prices going up if everyone starts speculating with sealed games.

The worst case scenario for us non-sealed collectors is a game that is expected to have a limited print run (like an LE or an Atlus title) for a new system to be bought up by speculators and graders so nobody can buy a new copy unslabbed. Don't think it would happen? Look at the Megaten games and how jacked the prices are already for opened games. We know Atlus doesn't do reprints, so we could see $150, $200 a game a few months after release! You know the speculators will smell blood in the water and choke out us normal collectors.

I like picking up the occasional sealed vintage game, but I'll be damned if I'll pay a premium to get a graded sealed game. To me, it's not ever going to be worth it.

[TonyTheTiger]

And, again, undisciplined and shortsighted speculation can lead to a lot of bankrupt small publishers.

There's also another risk. Currently, reseals for the most part are noticeable. But, I said this before in another thread...it's shrinkwrapping, not brain surgery. It's a realistic possibility that someone out there, with enough time, patience, and skill, could replicate a factory seal in such a way that it's completely indistinguishable from an original one. Something like that will fool experts and novices alike as...well...it'd be identical. Now, presumably, once something gets graded and slabbed then that's the official number and nobody can refute it. So what this would do is just encourage more people to run scams and try to squeeze by as many reseals as possible. And the more people invested in something the more progress they'll make in that field. Is encouraging more people to get into the resealing market really a good idea?

This isn't like faking a baseball card or counterfeiting money. Shrinkwrapping is infinitely simpler than that when you're dealing with games that come in jewel cases. I'd even venture a guess that faking a seal on a cardboard box is easier than counterfeiting a bill (even before the new security features were introduced). If you have an undamaged copy of a game, and a machine comparable to what the factories use, nobody's going to be able to tell the difference.

This goes back to my issues with the lack of distinction between "guideline" and "gospel." Once something becomes gospel, which grading always does, if you fool the graders then that mistake becomes "official." Hell, if the coin collectors who resubmit coins for a higher rating are any indication, "official" mistakes happen enough times for it to render the entire grading system a sham. The point is, the risk of paying out of the ass for a graded fake is higher when dealing with video games than it is with coins, baseball cards, or comic books. And if graded games become a hot commodity that's only going to encourage more people to find loopholes.

[98PaceCar]

The big difference between grading coins, stamps, action figures, or even comic books and sealed games is that each of these can be checked in it's entirety with the exception of sealed games, so the grade given reflects the condition of the entire item. That can't be done on a sealed game without breaking the seal. Who's to say the game wasn't resealed with a different and less valuable cart inside? There's much more reason for people to do this with games because you can't see what's inside the box, so if it comes back as an authentic seal the buyers will have no reason to doubt it is authentic while at the same time the seller ends up with a graded copy of the game along with a loose copy of the game. Not a bad way to push profits up if you can make it happen and as stated above, it's shrinkwrap, not brain surgery.

All that this grading service is going to do is make a very small segment of collectors feel better about their purchases while opening the doors to all sorts of new scammers and pushing prices across the board higher due to speculation.

[y-bot]

The big difference between grading coins, stamps, action figures, or even comic books and sealed games is that each of these can be checked in it's entirety with the exception of sealed games, so the grade given reflects the condition of the entire item. That can't be done on a sealed game without breaking the seal. Who's to say the game wasn't resealed with a different and less valuable cart inside? There's much more reason for people to do this with games because you can't see what's inside the box, so if it comes back as an authentic seal the buyers will have no reason to doubt it is authentic while at the same time the seller ends up with a graded copy of the game along with a loose copy of the game. Not a bad way to push profits up if you can make it happen and as stated above, it's shrinkwrap, not brain surgery.

All that this grading service is going to do is make a very small segment of collectors feel better about their purchases while opening the doors to all sorts of new scammers and pushing prices across the board higher due to speculation.

They've been graded sealed boxed toys for awhile. There are ways to tell if a box has opened or not but I have no idea how could tell if a jewel case game has been opened or not.

y-bot

[98PaceCar]

They've been graded sealed boxed toys for awhile. There are ways to tell if a box has opened or not but I have no idea how could tell if a jewel case game has been opened or not.

y-bot

Good point, I was thinking more of blister packed action figures where you can see the whole item, but there would be a need for the boxed toys that don't have windows as well.

Like you, I would be more concerned with jewel cased games as opening them has little impact on the structure of the case, with the exception of the seals but I've opened games without removing the seals on a regular basis. Actually makes it easier to get the seals off of them cleanly!