I like the experiment, but I'm curious to hear how you reached this conclusion. Increasing the conductivity and, therefore, rendering the game playable seems pretty far-fetched; the magic, I would argue, is simply reseating the game (which one has to do after blowing on the cartridge each time).Originally Posted by Frankie_Says_Relax
Sounds like a second science experiment that could be done...
I reached that theoretical conclusion, because moisture inarguably increases conductivity.I like the experiment, but I'm curious to hear how you reached this conclusion. Increasing the conductivity and, therefore, rendering the game playable seems pretty far-fetched; the magic, I would argue, is simply reseating the game (which one has to do after blowing on the cartridge each time).
Sounds like a second science experiment that could be done...
And while I agree that repeatedly re-seating a cartridge in a toaster NES could probably yield an above average level of success in getting it to boot ... I believe that the act of "blowing" (moisture) into games likely yields a level of success above and beyond JUST re-seating them repeatedly, or else this phenomenon wouldn't have become the practice of hundreds of thousands of Nintendo users during the life of the system.
Here's a diagram of exactly what I'm describing ...
Figure A. No moisture, no contact being made.
Figure B. Moisture, contact being bridged.
Last edited by Frankie_Says_Relax; 05-27-2008 at 07:37 AM.
"And the book says: 'We may be through with the past, but the past ain't through with us.'"
Awesome! Love the diagrams.
I'd just like to add that it isn't necessarily spit that is on those contacts, and I think it rather unlikely one would be able to disperse their spit evenly enough onto the contacts to have a reliably positive impact on performance. Much more likely is that it is simply condensation from the person's hot humid breath onto cold metal contacts, which would mean it is pretty clean water. Granted, if you are coughing into your games or otherwise incapable of blowing without adding a bunch of phlegm, then a little something extra is being added to the mix!
My cousins condensation was anything but clean... All his carts smelt like that stale saliva smell when kids suck on their toys haha.
My System History in order of purchase: Coleco Vision - Master System - Genesis - Game Gear - Sega CD - 32X - Saturn - Nomad - PS1 - Dreamcast - PS2 - DS - PS3 (60GB) - PSP - 360.
Placebo effect. Take the cartridge out, blow in it (no effect, but you saw some other kid do it so...), reseat it, watch it work, conclude that the "blowing" was the difference...
Also, you would need the contacts to stay moist for hours... or you would start to see games "glitch" during play.
It'd be an interesting experiment, none-the-less. Not saying your theory is impossible, but it certainly needs some data to back it up.
Thirty days to show the long-term effects of blowing on a cartridge? I don't think we will see any difference in that time period. Did you happen to take any high resolution scans of the contacts of the boards, or just the slightly blurry digicam pics?
I can attest to the scans idea. Stick those suckers in gutted CD cases and stick them in your scanner. It's a great way to do this sort of thing. I was telling an engineer at work a few weeks ago about that when I saw him using a digital camera to take pics of PCBs, and he's still using the camera
But I do think 30 days will be enough to get some results. I've got N64 games that are in horrible shape, and they have been around for less than half the time. It's funny how nearly every used game I ever got is in piss-poor condition as far as cart contacts go, and every single game I bought new and sealed has excellent pins. It's like everybody has poured acid on their carts.
That's not to say I'm innocent of cart blowing. I still do it sometimes.
Sorry about dragging my feet on weekly results.
While I have been performing the blowing on a daily basis, I haven't had time to really sit and get the chips on the scanner. (See my various above excuses, and add producing a new commercial for this weekend's Starcade to the mix.)
Rest assured, the results are interesting from what I can see, and I will post them when I find a moment of free time.
"And the book says: 'We may be through with the past, but the past ain't through with us.'"
looking forward to them ;p
Interested to see the results thus far.
did this project die I was pretty interested in it :S
Not dead.
In fact, I'll update it with results in a little bit. Promise!
"And the book says: 'We may be through with the past, but the past ain't through with us.'"
Final Results are up!
"And the book says: 'We may be through with the past, but the past ain't through with us.'"
Interesting results, and nice work!
Tea is for terrorists-Leo Laporte
Klingons Invented Saran Wrap
I have a few problems with your theory...
You suggest that blowing on the cart adds moisture which increases conductivity. Sounds reasonable, yet why then does the game continue to keep working long after, even days and possibly weeks after the moisture has had to have evaporated completely?
The moisture in human breath would leave very little, a barely measurable layer of moisture. Were talking microns here... This evaporates in very little time and is hardly thick enough to increase any connection or conductivity. Your theory hinges on the idea that a impossible connection is made and mysteriously remains for hours, days, probably weeks long after the fact. This doesn't add up. You are imo, creating more NES myths...
Also you keep mentioning green mold... Have you ever considered this is most likely a patina?... This is after all a copper alloy right? You even brought up old coins somewhere...
Im gonna go with placebo. The original NES simply had too many design flaws. It is most likely the act of removing and reinserting that solved the issue be it dust, a weak pin connection or comm between the lockouts.
I do however agree, blowing on the carts isn't a good idea. But come on, Ive revived old carts that were Blockbuster rentals. Were not kids anymore and blowing on the carts is far less "abuse" than what we did to these things when we were kids. The fact that these things still work some 20 years later...
Back in my group, some carts needed to be blown into every time we tried to use them, so that'd lend some evidence to the 'moisture conductor' theory.. It's not like just one blow would keep Ghostbusters II working for days.
In any case, it takes barely any moisture to create a contact, and barely detectable amounts can remain on an object for a decent amount of time, especially if it's not aired out.
That said, I'm not saying that the breath moisture theory is correct, in fact I'm rather on the fence.. But it seems like it could be within the realm of possibility.
I suppose one could say that my opinion is that it could be either cartridge blowing came about as an unlikely quick fix for bad connections(which in reality probably only actually worked rarely, with cart re-posistioning and luck as the main culprit helping spread the legend), or as an epically misunderstood urban legend with zero basis in reality. (It wouldn't be the first basis-less urban gaming legend if so, anyone remember holding up and B to catch Pokemon?)
Heh, wow. A blast from the recent past.
While the findings here were STRICTLY theoretical and not empirical by any stretch of the imagination, I think they also produced some visual evidence that could not be denied.
There was a build up of CRAP on the cartridge that was blown on every day that was NOT on the cart that was left as-is.
Pile that on top of the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of NES (and other system) carts in the wild that have visible corrosion type damage on the contacts. Moisture + oxygen + (most types of) metal = damage/corrosion, and it doesn't take a stress test like this to prove that.
Have any pennies in your pocket that look like this?
No. Most of them probably look like this.
While blowing in NES cartridges may very well be a placebo effect, as a collector I see absolutely no value in perpetuating a a theory that it does no damage whatsoever. (And I've never ever heard the assessment that you can keep a cart working for days/weeks after a single blow.)
"And the book says: 'We may be through with the past, but the past ain't through with us.'"
Well, you didn't really address anything I brought up. Ive been examining the green on a few carts and it appears to me your "green mold" is most likely a patina forming. I wouldn't really say you're doing anything more than speeding up the inevitable by blowing on the cart. Whether you blow or not, 20 years its going to happen unless kept in very controlled conditions.Heh, wow. A blast from the recent past.
While the findings here were STRICTLY theoretical and not empirical by any stretch of the imagination, I think they also produced some visual evidence that could not be denied.
There was a build up of CRAP on the cartridge that was blown on every day that was NOT on the cart that was left as-is.
Pile that on top of the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of NES (and other system) carts in the wild that have visible corrosion type damage on the contacts. Moisture + oxygen + (most types of) metal = damage/corrosion, and it doesn't take a stress test like this to prove that.
Have any pennies in your pocket that look like this?
No. Most of them probably look like this.
While blowing in NES cartridges may very well be a placebo effect, as a collector I see absolutely no value in perpetuating a a theory that it does no damage whatsoever. (And I've never ever heard the assessment that you can keep a cart working for days/weeks after a single blow.)
A patina is actually a valuable asset, in fact the most valuable asset of almost any collectible/antique. Not that this applies to electronics... It does however, in many environments protect from further damage. For all we know this could be the reason some carts still work after a good cleaning
OK
I blow on the cart after trying everything else and it magically works. I play for a couple hours, turn off the system and the game still works the next day. I just did this bucko... Id be very sure in saying if I turn it off for longer and let it sit for a week it will still work. Now tell me how does this minuscule film of moisture keep for 24 hours? Even one hour?... All Im saying is that you turned one possible myth about dust, into an even more improbable myth about moisture being responsible for the phenomenon...
Id like to try compressed air... But there is moisture in it... and I believe a can o air most likely condenses moisture in the air a bit as the gas expands.
I did however order an original NES cleaning kit after discovering your thread. Even tho 90% of my carts work in my very clean system sometimes blowing still does the trick. Im hoping the NES kit will work.
BTW I never said it wasn't doing any damage, I am simply addressing the obvious flaws in your moisture and green mold theories. You keep bring up green mold, mildew and "growth" in various threads. You do realize that fungi have very specific environmental conditions right? They require very high humidity, the right temp, and more... notice that they only grow in certain places in your home? Unless there is mold growing on the walls in your living room or where ever you're keeping you collection, most likely the conditions required will never be met inside a NES cart.
Whatever the case may be, my years of experience as a Nintendo owner since 1985, years as a gamer/collector, and five years as manager of a Funcoland during the absolute height of their NES, SNES, Genesis, GameBoy, etc. trade-in business, I've seen hundreds if not thousands of game cartridges that were clearly in some type of "environmental conditions" that produced corrosion and damage, and every time I took a trade in with cartridges in that condition I would ask "did you blow on these to get them to work?" the answer would always be a resounding "yes".
Admittedly, I'm no scientist, I don't know the difference between a patina and green mold on a molecular level, but if you review my theories with the understanding that I'm just looking for evidence of damage (or the potential to cause damage) based on moisture from human breath, then you should have a clear understanding of what I was getting at.
I Don't know what else I can add.
I don't care if I'm perpetuating an incorrect scientific theory ... if I stop just a few people from blowing in NES cartridges I think that future collectors will benefit from it.
"And the book says: 'We may be through with the past, but the past ain't through with us.'"
God, I hate being "that guy" who's bumping a 4 year old thread after it's already been bumped-back-from-the-dead once before, but I can most definitely provide evidence that the ol' blow the cartridge trick can seriously damage you cartridge-based games over a period of time, and not just leave a pretty patina.
No matter what "science" one may provide as evidence in order to disprove or discredit the efficacy of this technique, in both the long and short term, it seems absurd to do so when there's an incalculable amount of evidence to the contrary, collected over the last ~3 decades by countless gamers that says "it works" (no matter what the actual reason is for its ability to do so). Simply put, people wouldn't do so if it didn't work.
Back on topic, I have an ex-grilfriend who's little brother would literally lick the contacts on his N64 carts. That's right, not a gentle 'phwwwww', but a full-on French kiss. At one point, knowing how much of a game nerd that I was, she asked if I could help him with a few of his games that were no longer working*. I fiddled with them a bit, grabbed some Q-tips from her bathroom along with an alcohol solution in order to give them the gentle cleaning that I'm sure you're all familiar with. I didn't have much luck, and asked if I could take them home to pop 'em open and have a look (I'm not so nerdy that I carry Nintendo security drivers on my person, but I most definitely have a set at home). When I did get them home and pop them open, HOLY SHIT, the contacts (and in some instances, a good chunk of the boards) were coated in mountains of buildup! Repulsive as this sounds (and it was), I saw bringing 'em back to life as a small challenge, on top of the fact that it would most likely score me some reward nookie for helping out**
I performed every trick that I knew with regards to reviving carts in this state. I used an entire bag of 000 steel wool, then a bag of 00, THEN a bag of 0. When I finally cut through all the buildup (think blistered paint on a 93 Honda's rear quarter), all I found were completely severed traces and holes (not pits) in the contacts (sorta like trying to find the actual metal surface under said blistered paint on said early 90's Honda). These things were fucked. And remember, these are N64 carts, not NES or SNES. Also, this was in 1999, when the 64 was still available at your local TRU, not 9 months ago or anything like that.
Of course I understand that this is a pretty extreme example, but if that sort of corrosion can occur in such a short amount of time, with that level of abuse, then it seems fairly safe to surmise that a more moderate level of abuse over a much longer period of time could provide a similar result.
*As a little footnote, before the question is asked, the games were kept in a finished/waterproofed basement inside a lidded plastic container when not in use (all sloppy-like, but still in a closed, air-tight container).
**I received no reward nookie.
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