Piracy

[ProgrammingAce]

Considering i wrote up a document that goes step by step through the Saturn's Security State Machine, i'm not sure what other information you want. You have all the information there to create a self booting saturn game.

If you want step by step instructions, you're not going to get them. This isn't "The idiot's guide to pirating the Saturn".

If you're honestly interested in researching how the Saturn security protection works, then i've given you all the information you need to bypass it. If all you want to do is make a quick self booting game, then this isn't for you. I am always available on #vbender if you want to try it yourself and you have any questions though.

[logsofhod]

If you want step by step instructions, you're not going to get them. This isn't "The idiot's guide to pirating the Saturn".

If you're honestly interested in researching how the Saturn security protection works, then i've given you all the information you need to bypass it. If all you want to do is make a quick self booting game, then this isn't for you. I am always available on #vbender if you want to try it yourself and you have any questions though.

seeing a stock saturn get defeated will give me (and many others i bet) a great deal of pleasure, its something i've been waiting to see for years and years. when someone like yourself comes along with the apparent ability to do it, naturally, i wanna see and get amazed =)

thanks for the offer

[ProgrammingAce]

EDIT: This turned out a lot more asshole-ish then i had intended, but i'll leave it anyway 'cause it shows how much i suck with the gimp

Here's a pic of Crash bandicoot running on an unmodded saturn:



And yes, i really am an asshole sometimes.

[monkeychemist]

Guns are legal, murders are not.

I'm against those too

I'm giving people a way to play import games without buying a $30 action replay or modding their consoles. If they choose to use it for piracy, then they're breaking the law.

If SEGA wanted you to play imports, then they would have put that option in the Saturn. Since they didn't, then you are allowing people to break the law. simple...

[ProgrammingAce]

If SEGA wanted you to play imports, then they would have put that option in the Saturn. Since they didn't, then you are allowing people to break the law. simple...

Just because sega doesn't want me to do something doesn't make it illegal. 'Cause Sega sure as hell didn't want me to buy a Playstation 2, but that's not illegal.

The fact is, under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) it is legal to reverse engineer security systems for the purposes of interoperability. Modifying games to allow them to work in other regions falls under this heading.

Strangely, it is not legal for me to share the methods i used to bypass the protection. So what i did instead, i walked step by step through the system the Saturn uses to verify a disc as "Valid". With that knowledge, it is trivial to create a disc that satisfies these checks, allowing you to modify the region on a disc, then reburn it.

To the best of my knowledge, it would be illegal to offer step by step instructions (DMCA sucks balls). It would be perfectly legal for me to offer assistance to someone who wishes to investigate the matter further.

Basically, the law is phrased really stupidly, but it has been tested and has held up in courts.

[Sudo]

Oh wow, I love how I already said how pc gaming does not mean we have more money, but it happily got stepped over.

First off, bragging rights:
http://collections.designervelocity....custom&sc=s_pc,

Yeah, those are all pc. Look at how many of those have drm in 1 way, shape, or form on them.

You pc gaming arguments are completely flawed. Look at the modern gaming section and see how people are talking about dropping $60 on the latest 360, or ps3 game. 60?!?

I have yet to buy a pc game on release day that cost over 50.

Here, if you want to play the numbers game:
10 ps3 games bought when they first came out for 60 a piece = 600
10 pc games bought when they first came out for 50 a piece = 500

I just save 100, but you are correct, it costs too much to have a nice gaming rig. I do much more than pc gaming on my rig as well. If you were to piece together my rig right now, it would cost probably 1500-2000 (probably less). That is counting keyboard, mouse, monitor, speakers.

How much does your hd tv cost again to play consoles? Let's, see, get it on a killer deal and you could land it for 300 (like I said, killer deal). So now your 300 console costs 600 to play.

We are halfway there.

Speakers. Speakers are very cheap for both, but I was able to swing a deal and get 7.1 surround for 100. Let's say you get the same deal. Now your console is up to 700.

I have a keyboard, mouse, flight joystick as peripherals. They cost me probably about 150 for those. Let's say you land a deal and get them for 75 (another killer deal for something on a console), and now you are up to 775.

Now, in order to play a pc game that is cheaper than a ps3 game, when you start totalling it up, it is not that far off.

Now listen up people, this is what separates the 2: I have no made a graphical upgrade to my rid in about a year and a half and can still easily play newer games just fine. Hahahaha, I still have a single core and games still run extremely smooth. But what about Crysis? That game pushes the envolope for graphics. Upgrading a system to play it is awesome. You can't make those kinds of upgrades for a console, hence after a said amount of time, while my rig is still running smooth, you are wondering why your downgraded version of Crysis does not look and play as nice on your ps3.

With pc, it can continue to push further and further without hardware limitations. With a ps3 or 360, hardware limitations come into play.

If you want me to price out retail what I paid for all upgrades of my rig, and then compare it to a ps3 or xbox 360 on a hdtv, I can do that for you as well. I can show you that people assume that having a sweet gaming rig is some mystical thing that only rich people can have, but that is not the case.

I could even do you one better and price you out parts for a stellar new gaming rig (from top to bottom), and it would still be right along side how much it would cost to play a ps3 or 360.

You want to say console itself is 300-600.
I can do that with a pc. A decent pc chassis that inclused power supply, and a motherboard and processor combo you could easily get for 500. Oops, forgot about a hard drive. I see 1tb hdd's go for 100 with shipping now. So 600 for chassis with power, 1tb hdd, mobo and processor.

The prices are very close, so saying that you don't play pc gaming because of the price is completely flawed.

Now, moving on...

The thing is, you don't need an HDTV or surround sound speakers to play PS3 or 360 games. Sure, it'll greatly enhance the experience, but you can play them on an SDTV with stock speakers.

[tubeway]

I signed a document last month that said if i witness piracy and don't report it, i will be immediately terminated.

Honestly, i didn't report the dude and i have no intentions of doing so.

You've been reported for not reporting the piracy.

[cyberfluxor]

The thing is, you don't need an HDTV or surround sound speakers to play PS3 or 360 games. Sure, it'll greatly enhance the experience, but you can play them on an SDTV with stock speakers.

So take the $100 off the price of the PC rig since SegaAges bought one, making it 1400-1900 total. Still a computer monitor has higher resolution than an SDTV and most come with speakers attached.

I purchased a receiver for $5 and a pair of 120W Kenwood speakers for $8, making it $13 for my stereo sound. Since then I've booted those out to the garage for music while working on the arcade or cars and put a $10 JVC receiver/radio tuner/tape deck stereo from the 80's on there connected via RCA audio cables. Of course I can always jack my AKG studio headphones in that are generally used for vinyl/cd listening or for internet radio streams and want a little more quality.

So really there are still trade-offs. You can balance a computer specs with various price points along with the console market.

Free games, less viruses. Torrents are just harder to come by than the PC versions.

Free games exist on the PC under Windows, Linux, BSD, and many other operating systems. Viruses exist on every system, just Windows is the highest target. I could setup an obscure platform with few known exploits, but of course there won't be as many ports available. And yes, I can easily find binaries over torrents, even non-Windows executables.

[ProgrammingAce]

You can screw with the numbers to make PC gaming more or less expensive then consoles, but what's the point?

Really, one of the biggest bonuses for PC gamers is that it's so easy to pirate games (or "try before you buy"). But it's becoming increasingly obvious that developers are selling you up the creek. They're half-assing ports from the consoles. Look at bioshock, look at GTA4, look at S.T.A.L.K.E.R., all virtually unplayable at launch.

Even if you could get a great gaming PC for $400, why would you want to? And this coming from someone who used to work on AAA PC games. I don't even buy computers with graphics cards anymore.

[Starwander]

Immanuel Kant has something to say about this arguement. He proposed the moral theory of universalisability. Basically something was only truly morally acceptable if it was universalizable to all situations. As such the moral belief that pirating is okay isn’t a rational moral belief. The reason being is, if everyone pirated software, then there would be no further game development, since all game companies would go out of business.

[SegaAges]

You can screw with the numbers to make PC gaming more or less expensive then consoles, but what's the point?

Really, one of the biggest bonuses for PC gamers is that it's so easy to pirate games (or "try before you buy"). But it's becoming increasingly obvious that developers are selling you up the creek. They're half-assing ports from the consoles. Look at bioshock, look at GTA4, look at S.T.A.L.K.E.R., all virtually unplayable at launch.

Even if you could get a great gaming PC for $400, why would you want to? And this coming from someone who used to work on AAA PC games. I don't even buy computers with graphics cards anymore.

I brought up price because others did.

I don't pirate games. A perfect example is that I just got back from Target after buying Linerider 2.I have been meaning to get that for awhile now.

Please do not forget the absolutely stellar windows/mac exclusive games.

sins of the solar empire
dawn of war
MMORPG games
There are alot. We can't just say the quality is just too crappy for most ports. Under that same note, why should I own a Wii? Sure, there are some good ports, but many games that come out for all of the systems, really suck for the Wii.

Wii also has a buttload of shovelware, so under the same token of game quality, I should also write off the Wii for all it shovelware.

Mercenaries 2 got a bad rap and is a AAA title. Well, I guess I am done with consoles then.

Of course I am being a smartass if you couldn't pick up on that. I love consoles. I don't know what I would do without my 360. I just also enjoy the pc.

No, you don't need a hdtv or surround sound for a console, but then again, I can easily play pc games without a new 1gb ddr5 graphics card with a 27 inch uber monitor. I don't own either.

Let's price my box out for how much it would cost today, shall we:
p4 775 socket and mobo combo = $99
alienware area 51 3500 chassis = $100
Patriot 2GB memory (latency 2-3-2-5) = $150
2x HP DVD Burners (30 a piece) = $60
Alienware keyboard = $50
Razor Copperhead = $40
Logitech Extreme 3d Pro = $40
ATI Radeon x1600 Pro = $100
Hyper Tx-2 Heatsink = $30
VS-F2 Heatsink = $30
2x Dell 15 inch monitors (150 a piece) = $300
Creative 7.1 surround speakers = $100
about 10-15 fans ($3 a piece) = $45
500GB IDE Hdd = 80
80GB SATA Hdd = $40
250gb IDE Hdd = $30

That is all I can think of right now. There may be more to it, but if I could think of it, I would put it in.
The grand total = $1254

So really, you could start tacking stuff off that you don't use. Instead of a razor mouse and an alienware keyboard, you could go for standard and get those cheaper. You could get cheaper speakers, you could go with 1 monitor. You don't need all those fans. You don't need fancy lighting. Start taking money away, and you will see that I am not trying to make it out that I am just a complete advocate and that nothing can touch pc, but when you say it needs to die because of the cost, then I beg to differ.

I honestly can say that it sucks that you work on AAA pc titles and don't play pc games. I guess under the same token, I program for a telemarketting company and try to avoid calling into call centers, so I guess that is a strange way of relating, but sorta works.

We all have a platform of choice, and for me, I really didn't choose. I just sorta went with a little of everything. Some of you are different, and I can say that there are definately games you are missing out on for not even wanting to give a system a try.

[ProgrammingAce]

Wii also has a buttload of shovelware, so under the same token of game quality, I should also write off the Wii for all it shovelware.

Yes. I honestly have not found a single game for the Wii that i enjoy. Frankly, i've just stopped trying to like the console. I must be the only person on the planet who likes Mario 64 better then Mario Galaxy. I guess bowling on Wii Sports is fun... But then the real bowling game (Brunswick) blows.

I honestly can say that it sucks that you work on AAA pc titles and don't play pc games. I guess under the same token, I program for a telemarketting company and try to avoid calling into call centers, so I guess that is a strange way of relating, but sorta works.

I haven't worked on a PC game since 2003, it was a AAA title and someone else has already brought it up in this thread as an example of "The Right Way (tm)". When friends who are coming out of college and asking me for advise on how to get into the gaming industry, i tell them they'd be crazy to work for a PC developer

[cyberfluxor]

Let's price my box out for how much it would cost today, shall we:

For me the time I purchased my components (between 5 and 2 years ago)
MOBO, Chassis = $99
CPU = $150
> Gifted from parents
Kingston PC3200 2x1GB = $180
Sony DVD Burner = $100
> Now use a $30 burner, Sony is going into another system
IBM KB7993 = $2
> Was using a freebie Gateway keyboard for awhile
GE optical mouse = $10
Logitech Attack 3 = $5
Nvidia 7600+ GT = $180
2x HP 22" monitors = $800
> Purchased a few years ago with discount from company program
2x160GB IDE Hdd = $220
> Each purchased 5 years ago

Obviously my largest hit was the monitors (totally worth it), then video and memory. Items like the keyboard and flight stick were found at thrift stores. To me a keyboard is a keyboard and a mouse is a mouse if they work well. The system could be built today for a fraction of the price i paid. The system has been around for 5 years and its total cost has hit $1806 or $361.20/year. The LCD TV I want costs about the same, but that will change in the coming months. If I were to build a computer today with the same budget it would be a little beast easily rivaling any mainstream console to hit the market in the coming few years.

[QUOTE=ProgrammingAce;1498931]

I haven't worked on a PC game since 2003, it was a AAA title and someone else has already brought it up in this thread as an example of "The Right Way (tm)". When friends who are coming out of college and asking me for advise on how to get into the gaming industry, i tell them they'd be crazy to work for a PC developer

Maybe a strickly PC developer company without a good plan would be a terrible move. There's money to be made in flash games that can be pushed to handhelds too; people eat up the small iPhone games. I'm not familiar with the piracy in that market but I'm sure it's there. Developer kits are cheap too since it's software and they expect you have hardware to test on, most of the time their commercial product. Also virtual life games continue to have sales, though not nearly the growth in MMORPGS.

[Daria]

Free games exist on the PC under Windows, Linux, BSD, and many other operating systems. Viruses exist on every system, just Windows is the highest target. I could setup an obscure platform with few known exploits, but of course there won't be as many ports available. And yes, I can easily find binaries over torrents, even non-Windows executables.

I said less viruses. Not "no viruses". Anyway I was just pointing out that I do the same thing on my Mac as I do on my PC.

[smork]

Piracy is a big issue around the world. In Asia, majority of gamers don't buy console games. They only buy PC or Handheld because the games are cheaper and you can pirate them easily. I was in Malaysia and Singapore in Dec and I was amazed how much the game cost. PS3, Xbox360, PS2 games cost about $65-90 USD per game while DS/PSP games can range between $50-75 USD. Imagine trying to work at their salary and buy a game. Most people there don't make $50 USD per day. It takes them 1-2 months before they can earn enough to buy a game. This is why majority of Asians resort to piracy.

I lived in Malaysia for two years; games aren't THAT expensive there. New 360 releases are 120-150 MYR, which is $40-50 at the most. DS games cost about the same as the US. Plus, there's always the option of buying online (Play Asia, of course, and Seow Choon in Singapore is cheap/reliable).

Incidentally,there isn't much piracy in Singapore anymore anyway as the government has really cracked down on it. 99% of what you'll find in stores is original stuff, and people buy it (but Singapore salaries are quite decent, maybe 80% of a US salary).

That being said, $40 is a very high proportion of income where a person with a college degree can expect to make $700-800 monthly. Not to mention console costs -- A PS2 is still around 450-500 MYR, which is not particularly expensive, except through the lens of the local salaries.

The thing is, economics certainly is the original motivator behind piracy in Malaysia and Thailand (along with lack of access to original products -- for example, the 360 is still not officially released in Malaysia, 3 years after its release in the rest of the world. All sales of games and consoles are grey market). Now, I think, piracy is so ingrained in the local culture that I think people cannot easily be convinced to spend even $20 on a new game (if such a thing existed in the local market) -- they are too used to a game costing $1 or $2. One of my Malaysian coworkers makes quite decent money and she wants to buy a Wii -- but under no circumstances will consider buying non-pirated games. Movies and music face the same issues; even discounted for local salaries to try to make inroads against piracy original goods do not sell so well.

I don't know at this point if there will ever be a solution to this, unless it's a draconian solution like Singapore, where modded systems are completely illegal and customs has the right to search hardware brought in and out of the country for evidence of modding.

[alexkidd2000]

I'm splitting this off from this thread: http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=126832



So what you're saying is, as long as someone belongs to the same forum that i do, i should be ok with him stealing from my company? If you want to run 2 copies of a game at the same time, you're legally required to buy two discs.

I don't care if you have a modded 360, hell i don't care if you pirate games, but if you're stupid enough to put it in writing on a public forum, then i'm going to have fun reporting you.

Honestly, i didn't report the dude and i have no intentions of doing so. My goal is to scare people into being afraid of openly discussing piracy. My paycheck comes directly as a result of preventing piracy.

I'm honestly surprised to see so many people here turn a blind eye to piracy.

I think this is a dick move sorry. I am willing to bet alot of people on here pirate games. But being a forum full of responsible gaming fans, I am also willing to bet that these same people buy as many games legit as they can afford.

[cyberfluxor]

I said less viruses. Not "no viruses". Anyway I was just pointing out that I do the same thing on my Mac as I do on my PC.

I didn't mean to sound like a jerk with my reply. I was aiming for some Apple users to chime in about their computer use in addition to modern gaming experiences. I have a few Apple friends that are into animation and gaming so their G5 or MacBook was a better route for them, but they aren't rich as generally implied on higher end computer users. Usually they just have different priorities in spending.

[ScourDX]

I lived in Malaysia for two years; games aren't THAT expensive there. New 360 releases are 120-150 MYR, which is $40-50 at the most. DS games cost about the same as the US. Plus, there's always the option of buying online (Play Asia, of course, and Seow Choon in Singapore is cheap/reliable).

120-150MYR is like $120-150 USD if you compare 1 to 1 ratio and their standard of living. No one is crazy enough to buy game for that price. My cousin who lives there only buys pirated games because it only cost them 15-25 MYR. Singapore is alright. I do find cheap deals. Some shop just overpriced their games. One shop along Orchid road charge $120 USD for one PS3 game. I do see GBA clones a lot down there.

[smork]

120-150MYR is like $120-150 USD if you compare 1 to 1 ratio and their standard of living. No one is crazy enough to buy game for that price. My cousin who lives there only buys pirated games because it only cost them 15-25 MYR. Singapore is alright. I do find cheap deals. Some shop just overpriced their games. One shop along Orchid road charge $120 USD for one PS3 game. I do see GBA clones a lot down there.

Naw, I don't think you can really make that comparison like that. Otherwise you can just as easily say a cheap 12 MYR mamak dinner is like $12 US, or the Honda Civic that sells for 120,000 MYR is over $100,000. You see plenty of normal people driving Civics; how often do you see a regular dude driving a $100,000 car in the US?

There are a few good game shops in KL. The best is definitely Gamer's Hideout in Damansara. I used to waste alot of Saturdays playing 360 games over the LAN there for free. Great guys, quite helpful, and always giving bonus stuff. They seem to be doing rather well, too! Maybe not all hope is lost...

The place to shop for new games in Singapore is Funan Digital Life mall; several good shops (I bought alot at Gamescore, I believe). Prices for new run the same as the US or Japan, more or less.

[psst, by the way if your cousin is paying 15-25 MYR for pirate games he's getting ripped off; the going rate is 8-10 MYR]

[ScourDX]

When I was down in Singapore, I shopped at Comics Connection at 68 Orchard Road. They got a lot of bargain. I purchased some PSP, DS, PS2 for $20 SGD.