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Thread: GREAT History of Sega article on IGN

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    Strawberry (Level 2) Xian042's Avatar
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    Default GREAT History of Sega article on IGN

    Tells a bit more than the usual "Sega lost its Lustre" sob story. Has some new info I never knew before, and the article is satisfyingly long.

    linkey:

    http://retro.ign.com/articles/974/974695p1.html
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    Strawberry (Level 2) Xian042's Avatar
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    I've barely seen any mention of the video tape based console that Sewer Shark and Night Trap were originally made for, I know the console was in development at Hasbro but ultimately scrapped. Anyone have a project name for it?


    EDIT: Found it, it was called NEMO, would have been a pretty interesting unit if completed.
    Last edited by Xian042; 04-22-2009 at 02:35 PM.
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    Biggets eye-opener: SEGA had first shot at both hardwares that eventually ended up being the N64 and PlayStation.

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    Okay article. It starts off well, and the first two or three pages are great, but then it starts missing some things... It is interesting for sure, and there's some good stuff there in the Kalinske and Stolar interviews, but I can't help but look at the missing pieces... a good part of the story isn't there. Like, especially, financial information. Sega actually lost money, LOTS of money, between 1996 and 2001; they lost money every one of those five years. Saturn lost them over a billion dollars, Dreamcast huge amounts as well. Dreamcast was in third place in the US in 1999-2000, behind both Sony and Nintendo; yes, the Dreamcast didn't get past the N64 here, even in year-to-year sales, during that period, and perhaps even beyond it (I don't know N64/DC 2001 sales, so I can't say for sure for that year; both were fading out that year, though.). They had to cut the price, which increased losses without selling enough software to make up for it -- Sega lost money on every Dreamcast sold, initially quite a bit of money. Their hopes to turn the DC profitable never came to pass, and when that became obvious, they abandoned consoles. This is why some people blame piracy for killing the DC, because of how easy DC piracy was... but really, it was simply a problem of not selling enough systems to create a big enough market to get software sales high enough to interest developers. It didn't sell well enough, fell to third place shortly after launch, and sadly stayed there. This article makes it seem like had the people been willing, Sega could have kept going... but really, from what I've read, that's extremely hard to believe. It's perhaps even impossible to believe.

    This is not just because of the failure of three consoles or addons in a row, however. It's also because of the collapse of Sega's core money-making business in some markets: Arcade games. Arcade games were always Sega's focus, and their main profit vehicle. When the arcade market crashed in all Western markets starting in the mid '90s and pretty much completely dissolved by the beginning of this decade, Sega was hurt badly... I don't know how badly, but there is no doubt that it hurt Sega a lot. They did still have the Japanese arcade business to lean back on, but that wasn't enough, with all the losses the home console side was accumulating.

    Really, had Sega not gone third party, a much more likely scenario would be simply running out of money, I think. Bankruptcy? Sale to someone like Sammy or Microsoft? Who knows, probably something like that. They had massive losses with no end in sight, and had to do something to change that... and with the Dreamcast's failure, they didn't have much choice. Could Sega even have afforded to release another console even had they wanted to, some years later? I'm very doubtful. Sure, Sega had plans for a Dreamcast 2, but when their financial problems became dire, they had to drop them, and consoles.

    Some Sega people wanted to keep going, and just let the company fail if it couldn't make it or something like that. Others had wanted to never release Dreamcast at all, and go software-only years earlier. Sega's pride led it to release the system, but after its failure the ones who wanted to change it to software only won out. Sadly, it was too late, and Sega couldn't make it on its own, particularly after Okawa's death, which IGN does cover. But even then, it really wasn't until the Sammy takeover that things really started to get bad... but that takeover would never have happened if Sega's last two (or three, if you count the 32X) systems hadn't failed so badly. Bad decisions and failed products have consequences. And Sega made a lot of bad decisions, and had no console which succeeded in all markets.
    Other important things:

    -Sega was always smaller than its major competitors, and never had the kinds of cash Sony, Nintendo, Microsoft, or NEC did. Microsoft can afford billions of losses; Nintendo could for a while, though they are almost always very successful at making a profit; but Sega... Sega was always poorer, and more on edge. I love Sega's consoles, but sometimes, as Nintendo has shown, focusing on profit above all can be a successful strategy. While Sega was losing lots of money every year from 1996 to 2001, Nintendo has only ever lost money in one quarter of its entire history, and no full years... and they saved that money, so they'd have plenty of cash to use should something go wrong. This has helped them compete with much larger companies like Sony or Microsoft. Sega never had that. As a result, they could much less afford those kinds of losses than the others potentially could. Sega couldn't afford to lose huge amounts of money, with the hopes of making it back later, as MS and Sony can, and this was particularly true in 2001, after Sega had been hurt so, so badly by the losses on the Saturn. They needed the Dreamcast to be a big hit, now. My comparison is to the Wii -- if the DC had been a hit like the Wii (or DS), Sega would have been saved. But with no DVD drive and the PS2 coming up fast, they simply didn't have a chance.

    -Sega seems to have wanted to put a DVD drive in the Dreamcast at one point during the system's development. However, they couldn't afford to, so they had to go with CD-based tech. Had the Saturn been less of a disaster, DC may have had a DVD drive in it... and if it had had that, it might have saved Sega. The PS2 initially sold because of its DVD drive as much as anything else... but what if the DC had done it first? That would have been great for Sega, to say the least.

    But enough about Dreamcast, the other parts of the article (after page 2) had major missed pieces as well.

    -The Tonka SMS thing is generally considered a disaster. The system wasn't exactly doing well before that either, as they say, but Tonka did not make things better. Note how with from the Genesis on they never tried that again? It's because it didn't work well.

    -In 1989, when the Genesis and TG16 both came out in the US, many people expected the TG16, with the big NEC behind it, to do much better than little Sega's Genesis... Sega surprised a lot of people by quickly crushing NEC and Hudson's system. This really was an accomplishment of note, with various causes, some because of major mistakes NEC made in releasing the TG16 here (focusing on just a few big cities, for instance, or how the TG16 wasn't really 16-bit, which hurt it here where people all wanted the most powerful system... or waiting nearly two years after Japanese launch to finally get it out here, so it came out at the same time as the Genesis instead of a year earlier, as it did there...), others because of Sega's good marketing, which the IGN article does mention. Sure it's a Sega article, but without at least a bit on the competition the article is flawed. The article barely even mentions the NEC side, instead focusing on how the Genesis didn't match up to the NES saleswise from 1989-mid 1991. That's true... but it had won the first part of the next-gen war, a vital point! Without that, there would have been no base to build Sonic's success on, really, I think. It was Sega's first victory, and things would get even better in the 1991-1994 height of Sega's Western success.

    -They're kind of confused with dates in the 1993-1995 period, and sort of get things out of order, if you know the details. Sega's decision to kill all internal (Japanese) Genesis, Master System, and Game Gear support came in FALL 1995, not spring 1995, or even 1994, like this article makes it seem; it was actually after the US Saturn launch, not before it. Now, Sega had been wanting to do this for some time that year, but the actual decision halting development did not come until the fall. This pretty much kills one major excuse the article gives for the advisability of the spring launch, which was disastrous -- they don't cover it there, but it wasn't just seriously lacking software and a high ($400; they forget to mention the number, kind of killing the comparison with the $300 PSX price, which they do list) price that were the problem. There was also the major problem that they hadn't told retailers about this plan, and retailers do NOT like big things like this sprung on them. Retailers got really angry, and this seriously hurt Sega - if they don't really want your stuff, you're going to have a hard time selling it... so yeah, there's no excuse for Sega to not have waited until the fall, as Sony did. The system would almost certainly have done better, overall.

    -They also fail to say that 1994 was when the SNES started turning things around, sales numbers wise; Donkey Kong Country, in late 1994, was a crucial blow against Sega. It showed that you didn't need one of those expensive new 32Xes to get great graphics out of a 16-bit console, you just needed DKC. Some people were also annoyed by Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles basically being two halves of one game, so you'd pay double for the full game. Despite a fantastic year, software-wise, 1994 was when the Genesis market started to slip here, as Sega opened the door with mistakes and Nintendo ran through it with their strong comeback late in the generation. Sega had been ahead of the SNES, marketshare and sales wise, up to 1993 or 1994; after that, Nintendo passed them, and by the end of the generation Nintendo had sold 23.5 million SNESes in North America, Sega 19 or 20 million Genesises.

    -They seriously understate how much damage the 32X-Saturn combination did to the Sega brand in the West. Sure, only maybe half a million people bought 32Xes. But those were core Sega people, and others were interested... and the thing cost $180, not cheap! Then suddenly six months later they want you to buy another system, this time $400... and then a few months after that announce that, less than a year after its release, they're abandoning the 32X and Sega CD, which at that time was only three years old? And then only two years after its US launch Stolar says that the Saturn "is not our future"? This KILLED Sega in the West. Why IGN doesn't give nearly enough attention to how bad Sega's brand was in the US and Europe after those events really is a mystery. They do have quotes from Sega people saying how the Sega CD was really just an experiment, and 32X a stopgap, and criticize the release of the 32X at all (as they should), but they're missing the reaction of Sega's loyal fans to that...

    I mean, you don't go from 19 or 20 million (or perhaps a bit more) Genesises sold in the US to 2 million Saturns for no reason. It's kind of in the article, but not nearly enough.

    -Saturn wasn't just complex and very hard to program for, it was worse at 3d graphics. I mean, Saturn could do some nice things, including great 2d, but in 3d, the Playstation definitely does have an edge, and people in the US and Europe cared about that very much. Japan didn't, and the Saturn did much better there. Playstation also had a much better launch lineup, in the eyes of most Westerners; Panzer Dragoon, Daytona, etc, were great, but compared to Toshinden, Ridge Racer, etc... people didn't think the Sega games matched up. Sony also didn't have a long software drought, as Sega did between launch and the end of the year; by the time the PSX was out, Saturn already had a reputation for disappointing graphics and too few games. And then here was PSX with lots of great games and better graphics. Sony sold more PSXes that year than Sega did Saturns, despite releasing four months later. It was pretty much over from the start. IGN has some of this -- they focus on the complex hardware -- but the 2d vs. 3d element really was important in the West then... in retrospective hopefully we think it's silly (2d is great too!), but then... it was very important.

    -On that note, Stolar may have been bashed hard by Sega fans for blocking RPGs and such, but before Final Fantasy VII, RPGs weren't popular on consoles in the US; he was just reflecting the then-current trend of what was popular. The few RPGs that were released on the Saturn it the US sold very small numbers, so he wasn't necessarily wrong, sales-wise... he was only wrong "pleasing the hardcore fans" wise. That is important, of course, but how much so? Of course I wish Sega's policies had been different, but his focus on 3d games and action stuff was probably right, for the time; now we all wish that Sega had been releasing all their awesome 2d games and RPGs and strategy games in the US on Saturn, but would they have sold as well at the time? I doubt it, myself, sadly.

    -But overall, simply, Sega had over-extended itself in 1994-1995. They simply had too many hardware platforms to support, and they all suffered for it -- Sega had the Sega Master System (still with games being released in the European and Brazilian markets), Game Gear (which shared many games with the SMS, but had exclusives as well), Genesis, Sega CD, 32X, and Saturn. They also released a new handheld Genesis in 1995, the Nomad (released right around the time that they killed Genesis support... great timing, there! The two or three hour battery life sure didn't help it either.), a Sega CD-Genesis combo unit around then, the CDX, and were planning a Sega Genesis-32X combo, the Neptune, which was unreleased, among the other unreleased systems IGN mentions. Sega had a love for lots of hardware platforms... designing them is fine, but Sega kept RELEASING them. Their attempt to fix the problem, dropping everything except for the Saturn, was far too late, though and ended in disaster as the system crashed everywhere outside of Japan. Some of this is in the article, but I think it's worth highlighting anyway; how can you expect to fully support that many systems at once with new games? You can't. So they suffer -- the Sega CD's 1995 release list was miserable, for example! And then the 32X came and went... not many people still had faith in Sega after that, beyond maybe buying some of the few new Genesis games that did come out in 1995-1997, and the few who still did gave up when the Saturn was ditched early. And that's where, most everyone agrees, the DC was a success... it saved Sega's reputation among gamers. The system may have died very early due to Sega's financial shape, but while it lasted, it was great... (though I admit, I didn't have one then either (finally got one in 2007); I got an N64 in 1999.)

    That's just what I remember offhand, doing no research. I'm sure there's more, if I reread the stuff I'm about to link again... but I think that's enough.

    I would definitely recommend Sega-16's many interviews with people involved in Genesis games and Sega during the 16-bit period: http://www.sega-16.com/features.php They have interviews with a lot of people, now, including Kalinske back in 2006. Here's a link to the full list: http://www.sega-16.com/features.php?...earch_in=title

    There's also, of course, Sam Pettus' 'Rise and Fall of Sega' classic work... http://web.archive.org/web/200802141...ase/index.html His stuff is very biased, of course, and not perfectly accurate, but it's voluminous and there is huge amounts of detail there. It goes from the beginning of Sega to holiday 2000, with great detail along the way... for some reason he never finished the last DC page, even after moving the content to Eidolon's Inn (which I'd link instead of the version I did, if it wasn't down now or something). It was too painful to have to look at the end of Sega in that much depth, perhaps?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidDayton
    I think it's a bit of uneven tone, really. Generally the facts are correct, but they often sit aside gigantically biased assumptions and generalizations about Sega as a company. I found myself wondering if it had been written for a Sega fansite and added to IGN as part of some content-swap deal.
    Indeed... kind of reminds me of Pettus' SegaBase articles there, in a way, except with only a small fraction of the amount of content.

    Really, for anyone really interested in Sega history, just go read those articles, as well as the Sega-16 interviews. It'll take a longtime, but there's just so much interesting stuff there that it's easily worth it, in my opinion at least.
    Last edited by A Black Falcon; 04-23-2009 at 03:22 PM.

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    Article with lots of random facts all over the place (interesting information about the office politics), but poorly constructed in terms of giving the reader the bigger picture and any coherent timeline. For example:

    "The Master System proudly boasted the ability to store games on small, lightweight cards as well as cartridges, and SEGA hoped that the novelty of carrying a bunch of games in your pocket would have some schoolyard cachet."

    Yes, that's true, but the idea originated in Japan with the SG-1000 and apparent plans by Sega to move to the physically compact medium. Obviously space considerations won the day - eventually. I wouldn't say "it's Japan so it all makes sense," but it certainly makes more sense when you consider that Sega was trying to be innovative in Japan early on (about 1985); by the time of the US SMS debut they were obviously looking to get some more mileage out of their investment in the card format. Not just a gimmick; look at the portable PC-Engine / Turbo-Grafx units, for instance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon View Post
    I would definitely recommend Sega-16's many interviews with people involved in Genesis games and Sega during the 16-bit period: http://www.sega-16.com/features.php
    Oh without question, the articles written on Sega-16 are some of the best for any game history.

    Moral of the story, he who is least stupid in making hardware decisions wins.
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    It looks pretty good.

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    ABF pretty much covered it, but I have to chime in too. This is the first time I've ever read/heard a positive portrayal of the Tonka SMS situation, which everyone else has told me was a fiasco, and that when Tonka took over, the system did worse. Also, I really don't agree with the way Stolar's "Saturn is not our future" comment was portrayed -- that was a disaster of epic proportions. Sure, the Saturn wasn't doing great. But to make a statement like that when the system is less than two years old, and you clearly don't have a follow-up anywhere near ready, is just retarded. When your main product isn't doing well, you don't go out of your way to make it worse. In terms of sales, Saturn went from a respectable third in late '96 to Atari Jaguar status a year later. After what had happened with the Sega CD, 32x, and to an extent even the Genesis, doing that with the Saturn just cemented a reputation of Sega having short attention spans. And I think that kind of thing definitely hurt the Dreamcast -- I specifically remember people saying "the Dreamcast looks nice, but Sega will probably cut and run in two years anyway, so I won't bother with it". And hey, they were right.

    Also, the article completely fails to mention Sega's PC outings and Heat.net, which were a significant part of its history.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheShawn
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    are the sega base articles still available online? those were fantastic

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisbid View Post
    are the sega base articles still available online? those were fantastic
    I linked them. See the bottom of my post. I also updated my response post above with a bunch of new stuff, look over the post again.

    This is the first time I've ever read/heard a positive portrayal of the Tonka SMS situation, which everyone else has told me was a fiasco, and that when Tonka took over, the system did worse.
    Yeah, this might be the first time anyone actually defended that decision.

    Okay, probably not, but it's not something anybody I've ever heard agrees with, for sure.

    Also, I really don't agree with the way Stolar's "Saturn is not our future" comment was portrayed -- that was a disaster of epic proportions. Sure, the Saturn wasn't doing great. But to make a statement like that when the system is less than two years old, and you clearly don't have a follow-up anywhere near ready, is just retarded. When your main product isn't doing well, you don't go out of your way to make it worse. In terms of sales, Saturn went from a respectable third in late '96 to Atari Jaguar status a year later. After what had happened with the Sega CD, 32x, and to an extent even the Genesis, doing that with the Saturn just cemented a reputation of Sega having short attention spans. And I think that kind of thing definitely hurt the Dreamcast -- I specifically remember people saying "the Dreamcast looks nice, but Sega will probably cut and run in two years anyway, so I won't bother with it". And hey, they were right.
    Great point. I cover most of that, but I might not focus enough on how awful the "Saturn is not our future" point is... it is there, but you're quite right, it was a really, really bad thing to say. Just because you hate the system and wish it gone (as did the whole US side, evidently) doesn't mean you should be going around sabotaging it and trying to (successfully) destroy it two and a half years before your company would be ready to release a successor in that market! That's just incredibly stupid! Sega made so many awful decisions...

    As for Sega PC, I don't think that was really ever a huge part of the company... they did some stuff, but a major division? You really think so?

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon View Post
    As for Sega PC, I don't think that was really ever a huge part of the company... they did some stuff, but a major division? You really think so?
    Yes, Sega PC was pretty major, on this side of the pond anyway. Aside from the PC ports of Saturn games, they had the Sega Soft division putting out their own PC games, and they launched the Heat.net online gaming service. Heat.net was a popular and feature-rich service, basically the predecessor of Seganet and Live.

    At the same E3 when Bernie Stolar said Saturn wasn't their future, he showed off Heat.net. From that point forward, Sega released fewer Saturn games and more PC games, and Heat.net was launched later in '97. The following year, Sega of America only released like 4-6 games for the Saturn. PC seemed to be their major focus from late '97 until the launch of the Dreamcast.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheShawn
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    I enjoyed the IGN article, even though it was missing some important details. Articles like that bring me back in time while reading them, to the "good old days" as they say.
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon View Post
    Really, had Sega not gone third party, a much more likely scenario would be simply running out of money, I think.
    Well that's a point I made in the article. I said that the only way they could have survived was if CSK bankrolled them, because they didn't have their own money. This is directly related to Okawa assuming greater control in the company, with Nakayama moving to the background, and Iramajiri acting, by some accounts, as a puppet, before Okawa appointed himself CEO directly. Okawa (and Rosen, before his departure, even) didn't believe in Sega has a hardware company and he wanted out. With Sega's finances being what they were, they had no choice but to bend to his will or face bankruptcy.



    -Sega was always smaller than its major competitors, and never had the kinds of cash Sony, Nintendo, Microsoft, or NEC did. Microsoft can afford billions of losses; Nintendo could for a while, though they are almost always very successful at making a profit; but Sega... Sega was always poorer, and more on edge. I love Sega's consoles, but sometimes, as Nintendo has shown, focusing on profit above all can be a successful strategy.
    This is adressed in the article at a few points. When I justify the decision to hand rights to the SMS over to Tonka, it isn't to say that Tonka did a great job, but rather that Sega just didn't have the bankroll to advertise it or the connections to get it into stores at that point in time. Tonka did, so it fixed that situation. It also created other problems, but Sega couldn't have done any better alone. They were too poor.

    The Tonka SMS thing is generally considered a disaster. The system wasn't exactly doing well before that either, as they say, but Tonka did not make things better. Note how with from the Genesis on they never tried that again? It's because it didn't work well.
    Tonka is scapegoated pretty hard, let's be real here. The SMS in the US actually did get nearly every marketable game on the system and, like I said, they funneled $30 million into advertising, AND actually got the damned thing onto store shelves in ways that Sega never could.

    I understand the bad-ol' Tonka ruining the SMS story, but at a certain point you need to cut through fanboy fable and look at the facts. Tonka wasn't able to save the SMS, but don't act like Sega was getting the job done without them.

    The article barely even mentions the NEC side, instead focusing on how the Genesis didn't match up to the NES saleswise from 1989-mid 1991. That's true... but it had won the first part of the next-gen war, a vital point! Without that, there would have been no base to build Sonic's success on, really, I think. It was Sega's first victory, and things would get even better in the 1991-1994 height of Sega's Western success.
    Well... I acknowledged this, I think, but you also have to consider that the TG-16 was struggling for a lot of the same reasons the Genesis was. You can say that the Genesis defeated the TG-16, but you can also say the TG-16 took on the Nintendo juggernaut and failed, where the Genesis succeeded. With such a long article, I had to make some calls about which stories were worth spending time on, and which needed to be covered more briefly. They're tough calls, and I certainly wish I could have done more.

    This pretty much kills one major excuse the article gives for the advisability of the spring launch,
    I never said it was advisable. I said they weren't given a choice. That was a decision that was forced on SoA by the Japanese branch, and one that they very much regretted. The "didn't have a choice" framing is from a direct quote from Kalinske.

    they don't cover it there, but it wasn't just seriously lacking software and a high ($400; they forget to mention the number, kind of killing the comparison with the $300 PSX price, which they do list) price that were the problem. There was also the major problem that they hadn't told retailers about this plan, and retailers do NOT like big things like this sprung on them.

    Retailers got really angry, and this seriously hurt Sega - if they don't really want your stuff, you're going to have a hard time selling it... so yeah, there's no excuse for Sega to not have waited until the fall, as Sony did. The system would almost certainly have done better, overall.
    This is clearly covered in the article:

    "To make matters worse, retailers that were not informed of the early launch were angry, and some would later refuse to carry SEGA's games."

    They also fail to say that 1994 was when the SNES started turning things around, sales numbers wise;
    IIRC, it was 1995 when Nintendo passed Sega, which you could blame on the Saturn if you wanted to. The extent to which DKC was really a blow to Sega is debatable. It was a big game, for sure, but sega

    They seriously understate how much damage the 32X-Saturn combination did to the Sega brand in the West. Sure, only maybe half a million people bought 32Xes.
    Actually, only 100,000. I was one of them, got a 32X on launch day, and I never got a Saturn as a result because I was so burned. I understand well the damage it did with the core base, but I just don't believe it can be blamed for the Saturn's failures, which had many more causes.

    It's speculative to some extent. I try to present all the reasons and not try to oversimplify it. You can make your own call, and that's ok.

    -Saturn wasn't just complex and very hard to program for, it was worse at 3d graphics. I mean, Saturn could do some nice things, including great 2d, but in 3d, the Playstation definitely does have an edge, and people in the US and Europe cared about that very much.
    It was in the ballpark, though. I didn't want to get into technical details like manipulating the sprite architecture to process quads as polygons, and how that differs from affine textured triangles, and all that. People would fall asleep.

    In good hands (NiGHTs, VF2, etc) it did 3D that was competitive with what the PSX did, but it was much more difficult to get there. I think that explains it well enough.

    Playstation also had a much better launch lineup, in the eyes of most Westerners; Panzer Dragoon, Daytona, etc, were great, but compared to Toshinden, Ridge Racer, etc... people didn't think the Sega games matched up.
    I don't think the disparity was with the quality of the games in the launch window, but rather the quantity. And I did address that.

    It seems like a lot of what you're complaining about here is just that you wanted more gory detail on some points from an article that is already one of the longest you'll find on the site. The fact is, I overshot the target length for this article by double because I wanted to get in as many of these details as I could, but you have to make cuts for the sake of maintaining a brisk narrative and just getting the damned thing done. I'm sure you can understand that. I had to do the whole thing in about 10 days. I don't have the luxury of working on it for years like Sega-16 or Sega Base.
    Last edited by Frogacuda; 04-26-2009 at 11:38 PM.

  14. #14
    Insert Coin (Level 0) xDerekRx's Avatar
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    You dont need to defend youself. The article was great. i always like reading Sega stuff.

    I started with Nintendo NES as a kid and Marios and Ninja Gaiden but got a Genesis and never looked back. Was a Sega fan boy for life. Saturn and DC I think were great regardless even after I got an N64, PC and PSX.

    Sega for life!

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    Certainly a good read indeed Froga. I was surprised by the part about Silicon Graphics, boy what could have been there.

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    Strawberry (Level 2) Xian042's Avatar
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    I still say great article froga, and thanks for commenting!
    "Oh my lord it's nutty, yup!"

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