Fifteen Classic Game Console Design Mistakes

[MASTERWEEDO]

Eh, I can't give you that. It has no influence on game content, and there are equal advantages to having save files separate from the game media itself.

Renting comes to mind.

[Jorpho]

They should have simply had 2-4 control ports. Linking was just a pain and in my opinion created more of a mess. If someone tugged there controller it would just screw up everyone else.

If the cords were long enough, one person tugging on a controller wouldn't affect someone else, unless they were sitting really far apart. Besides, if you tug on the cord that hard, you can probably yank a system right off whatever shelf it is sitting on.

[Sonicwolf]

Eh, I can't give you that. It has no influence on game content, and there are equal advantages to having save files separate from the game media itself.

I meant if more for an advantage thing. If your memory card for a disc based console dies, it takes ALL of your game saves with it.

[A Black Falcon]

That's a fair point, though it didn't really help the Nintendo 64. The system's expansion pack was sold as a separate item instead of being integrated into the cartridges.

True, apart from the modem for access to the 64DD's Randnet service. Still though, there were many varieties of carts, with a bunch of different save types and cartridge sizes available... carts aren't one-size-fits-all. Of course even the cheapest levels are more expensive than anything on CD most likely, but at least companies aren't stuck with one very high price. The N64 for instance had six or seven different cart sizes and four or five on-cart save types or no oncart saving. Lots of options.

Eh, I can't give you that. It has no influence on game content, and there are equal advantages to having save files separate from the game media itself.

Yes, there definitely is an advantage -- you don't need to buy additional hardware just to save your game! With the N64 half of games do require the controller paks, but that's one half less than the number of PSX games that you need a memory card for.

Also at the time of course N64 games were more expensive usually, but now they aren't, and buying games with on-cart saving can save you the hassle of needing quite as many memory cards... though you do still need lots of them because of all those annoying (third-party) games that require memory cards.

Really that generation Saturn was probably best -- the memory card was very large, able to hold lots of save files. N64 would be second because of all the games with on-cart saving. PSX would be last of the three, because everything needs a memory card and those memory card access times on the thing are so long...

Oh, every single game published by Nintendo on the N64 has on-cart saving. Only third party games require memory cards, though most of those do.

[Ed Oscuro]

The N64 for instance had six or seven different cart sizes and four or five on-cart save types or no oncart saving. Lots of options.

Lots of options a convoluted supply chain makes!

Are we forgetting the real culprit for Nintendo 64 analog stick failures? That damned minigame in Mario Party with the boat and the oars. The one where you have to rapidly rotate the joystick.

Probably. I've owned neither game so these things are mysteries to me.

I believe the N64 ships with little gremlins that spin the controllers while you sleep.

[Kiddo]

Really that generation Saturn was probably best -- the memory card was very large, able to hold lots of save files. N64 would be second because of all the games with on-cart saving. PSX would be last of the three, because everything needs a memory card and those memory card access times on the thing are so long...

Sega's best decision for the Saturn was having the CD-based media -with- the cartridge expansions done on an as-needed basis for, say, "X-Men Vs. Street Fighter".

Of course, it kind of needed that considering that without such expandability it was difficult to make games for the system rival the Playstation.

The N64's RAM Expansion was a similar concept, but it seems kind of awkward when on previous consoles they would've just had a special chip manage something like that.

[j_factor]

Agreed here as well for sure, N64 games did not suffer in any way graphically or in game design because of the cart decision. The only things that were really affected were music and making it harder for developers not good at compression, really

Have you ever played the N64 version of DDR? It's god-awful, and not just because it's Disney themed. Something like MTV Music Generator would be downright impossible. Music isn't of no importance.

(the low-res textures are mostly because of the tiny texture cache, not the carts).

But limited space (of carts) still means less room for texture data. Even if the N64 had been given a larger texture cache, it would still have generally worse texturing. If not low-res, then simply fewer textures.

FMV doesn't just mean live-action video, it also means CG cutscenes. And if one thing hurt the N64, it was the fact that JRPG developers couldn't do their precious pre-rendered FMV cutscenes on N64, so they all went to PSX instead, and doomed Nintendo in Japan that generation.

It's not just JRPG's. Lots of games used FMV. And you know what? They're not all bad. I've noticed N64 fans have a tendency to get really hyperbolic with their dismissal of video sequences in games. Cutscenes can be important. Take the FMVs out of Oddworld and you have a much less memorable, charming game (although still good gameplay-wise).

There were some other factors, but I think that was one of the biggest ones. Of course Resident Evil 2 for instance shows that you CAN actually do FMV on the N64, but it takes a lot of effort...

RE2 was the first 64MB cartridge, and it came out relatively late into the N64's life. A cartridge of that size wasn't available prior. There's a reason it was Resident Evil 2 (and a year and a half after the PSX version), and not Resident Evil 1.

Yes, there definitely is an advantage -- you don't need to buy additional hardware just to save your game! With the N64 half of games do require the controller paks, but that's one half less than the number of PSX games that you need a memory card for.

Games with on-cart saving typically cost even more than a regular N64 game, which was already more expensive than a Playstation game. PSX memory cards were quite cheap. You could buy a Playstation game and a memory card for the cost of an N64 game alone.

Using cartridges on the N64 was absolutely not a mistake, it was a good decision that made games on the system more fun and less frustrating (no/less load times, etc).

Since when are load times the worst thing in the world? In the vast majority of games, they're only a few seconds. When a game does have long load times, it's a fault of the game, not the disc format. Even on Sega CD, lots of games have very minimal loading. Fun fact: The Sega CD version of Out of This World actually loads faster than the SNES version.

In any case, the cartridge format was quite limiting. It's not just music, and it's not just video. And neither of those are insignificant either.

[Ed Oscuro]

Have you ever played the N64 version of DDR? It's god-awful, and not just because it's Disney themed. Something like MTV Music Generator would be downright impossible. Music isn't of no importance.

Neither is quick loading. Shadowman and Banjo-Kazooie come to mind, I think.

[Kiddo]

Have you ever played the N64 version of DDR? It's god-awful, and not just because it's Disney themed. Something like MTV Music Generator would be downright impossible. Music isn't of no importance.

I'm gonna immediately guess the reason it was awful was because I can't remember there even being a dance pad for the N64.

You just can't play an arcade-style-game without a resemblence of it's control interface.

*Got an arcade stick that was N64-compatbile specifically for DK Arcade mode on DK64.*

[Soviet Conscript]

That came up in the AVGN Plumbers Don't Wear Ties video. Just what is so terrible about this idea? It's a bit odd, but it seems quite reasonable to me. I can see it as potentially even reducing the occurrence of tangled cables.

i agree, i always liked the 3do controllers and never had a problem with the daisy chain idea. i also really liked the headphone jack on the controllers

[kupomogli]

Since when are load times the worst thing in the world? In the vast majority of games, they're only a few seconds. When a game does have long load times, it's a fault of the game, not the disc format. Even on Sega CD, lots of games have very minimal loading. Fun fact: The Sega CD version of Out of This World actually loads faster than the SNES version.

I'll agree with this right here. Alot of people always assume disc format has terrible load time, these days it's when bashing PSP games. There are alot of games that load as fast as most cart games do. It's all dependent on how the games are developed.

Generally however, the cart format does have faster load times because it really doesn't require any optimization to ensure faster speeds.

Speaking of the Sega CD. In the Lunar games, battles are entered and exited pretty much instant, same with changing areas, anime sequences, etc. After anime sequences it did take about a two or three seconds before the previous screen reappeared, but that's about it.

Play Rogue Galaxy on the PS2. The game has almost no load times. The battles have short load times, but it's well hidden that you don't really realize it when you're playing.

Xenogears on the Playstation is another that has next to no load times. This is another game that hides load times well. Battles actually load while you're still in control, and then once loaded you enter the battle. If you have ever played it on an original PSX, you'll always know that you were about to get in a battle because you start to hear it read a different area on the disc. At this point you also get more time to still move around, the only thing that is locked out at that point is the ability to jump, open your menu, or leave the area.

Breath of Fire 3 for PSP or PSX has no real noticeable load times. Entering and exiting the map to a dungeon/town takes no time at all. Battles are in the exact same location your characters are standing at, no large load times. Probably about two seconds.

I'll finally end with the PSP. The GTA games load the entire game fairly quickly, then whenever entering or leaving a mission or building, it's only a few seconds before the entire map pulls up. Brave Story, Gurumin, Star Ocean First Departure, Second Evolution, etc. Barely any load times. Though you got other games like the WWE games which have pretty bad load times for the system, some Japanese game that I've heard that has a full minute each load screen, Wipeout Pulse that has about 10 seconds when loading a race, etc.

So yeah. It's all about how the game is developed.

An example of a recent cartridge game that has semi poor load times. Look at Final Fantasy 4 DS. When entering battle it takes atleast three to four seconds to load. Then when entering towns/dungeons, it's got about three seconds load time. It's also got a fairly noticeable load time when entering/exiting a different menu(two to three seconds.) Using L and R cuts down on that because it stays in the same menu.

So yeah. Cartridges don't necessarily mean it's the godsend of loading times. Though an opinion of mine would be Square did no optimizing on the load time for FF4DS. They sure as hell didn't with that piece of crap called FF4 Advance with lag from hell and bugs all over the place.

[j_factor]

I'm gonna immediately guess the reason it was awful was because I can't remember there even being a dance pad for the N64.

There was, it was packaged with the game. There was only one N64 release of the series, and it was Japan-only, so the pads aren't exactly common.

[Kiddo]

There was, it was packaged with the game. There was only one N64 release of the series, and it was Japan-only, so the pads aren't exactly common.

Thanks for that correction. Might be something I should look into, since it helps me realize that I can't recall many N64 accessories, much less specialty controllers like those - the Arcade stick I got in fact is a custom-built one and not a standard release like "arcade shark" (which I would looked hideous.)

Which then begs the question: We got two opposite ends of this scale here with

a) The N64, which had hardly any speciality controllers whatsoever.
vs
b) the Dreamcast, which had so many specialty controllers that I swear new ones are STILL popping up.

Would you think any one extreme or both extremes to be any sort of mistake?
Those on one end might feel an overabundance of specialty controllers to be too much of a money pit to attract casuals. On the other hand, not having a good official stick to play Killer Instinct Gold with.... sorry, Nintendo, Analog sticks do NOT work as Arcade sticks.

[Ed Oscuro]

There are alot of games that load as fast as most cart games do.

Not a rebuttal, but more an expansion on that theme:

Blu-Ray's maximum advertised throughput is 54MB/sec; meanwhile, compact flash can get 45MB/sec WRITE speed, and SDHC is close. SDXC, which is ~5 years newer than Blu-Ray, is going to leave it in the dust, with minimum speeds around 100MB/sec, with a possible future speed on the roadmap of 300MB/sec, and minimum capacities of 64MB/sec. The Secure Digital format gets upgraded for bandwidth as often as is needed (although that makes these upgrades out of the question for a gaming device). Sony could always rev their discs, but you get the idea - there's not a huge gap between these two technologies. The consumer disc tech tends to be finalized in design for ease and cost, while applications that require the fastest data transfer rates (both up and down) are going to more than keep pace with disc media - but, as I said, solid state tech also has a barrier. Nintendo doesn't really have to go head-to-head with anybody for performance so they can get by with cheap media.

However, on the (all-important) business side there is an important point to be made: Discs are always at risk of going the way of a certain flightless Mauritanian bird, but solid state media (convenient bulk storage) has a strong future. Discs are just a way of getting some data to you, but solid state media is not can be used to hold data delivered digitally (displacing the optical media) just as well, it is more flexible with a wider range of uses across various devices and so is not in danger of being displaced itself any time soon.

Still, optical media is much better than it once was; file placement for optimizing fast reads works fairly similarly to hard drives, and so should sequential reads, something that it may do better than ROM or solid state media.

When it comes down to random reads, though, a solid-state solution wins. Of course, few (if any) games are built needing that.

Of course, the other questions that work out in favor of solid state haven't been raised, including power and relia/durability.

Generally however, the cart format does have faster load times because it really doesn't require any optimization to ensure faster speeds. [...] Though an opinion of mine would be Square did no optimizing on the load time for FF4DS. They sure as hell didn't with that piece of crap called FF4 Advance with lag from hell and bugs all over the place.

Uh, whatever you say.

[A Black Falcon]

Have you ever played the N64 version of DDR? It's god-awful, and not just because it's Disney themed. Something like MTV Music Generator would be downright impossible. Music isn't of no importance.

There are some N64 games with decent-quality vocal music, such as Top Gear Overdrive, and others with plenty of voiced dialog, like Shadow Man, Conker, PD, Rogue Squadron, etc. You can't do as many songs on N64 as on PSX (maybe like six seems to be the limit in most voiced-dialog-songs games), but quality is plenty good enough. N64 audio is not that bad.

Of course DDR would only suffer with only a few songs, though. That is something designed for CDs, sure. Just like how anything with lots of stuff to load is better on cart.

But limited space (of carts) still means less room for texture data. Even if the N64 had been given a larger texture cache, it would still have generally worse texturing. If not low-res, then simply fewer textures.

Not really. Very few games that generation used much of that space with actual textures, there's a reason that so many of those games have huge FMVs and redbook audio taking up most of the discs... the actual games themselves are pretty small. While there may have been some limits on texture size thanks to using the carts, that gen, it wouldn't have been much of a problem. The carts and compression were plenty large enough for higher-resolution textures, had they been possible.

It's not just JRPG's. Lots of games used FMV. And you know what? They're not all bad. I've noticed N64 fans have a tendency to get really hyperbolic with their dismissal of video sequences in games. Cutscenes can be important. Take the FMVs out of Oddworld and you have a much less memorable, charming game (although still good gameplay-wise).

Sure, FMV's not all bad. Blizzard is my favorite game developer (for their RTS games in particular), and I've always been very impressed by their CG FMV work... but that is not gameplay, and gameplay is what matters the most for games. Having fancy FMVs does nothing to help your game's actual gameplay. And the N64 clearly wins in that department, in my opinion.

RE2 was the first 64MB cartridge, and it came out relatively late into the N64's life. A cartridge of that size wasn't available prior. There's a reason it was Resident Evil 2 (and a year and a half after the PSX version), and not Resident Evil 1.

Yeah, back when RE1 came out Capcom was still refusing to develop anything at all for the N64.

... I admit, a 16MB version of RE1 or something (for 1997 release; 32MB wasn't available until '98) wouldn't have been as good as the 64MB version of RE2, for sure. RE1 was only one disc though, a 32MB version at least should have been possible, had they wanted to try... 16MB would have been tough though, sure. But the point is, Capcom didn't even want to try, they were most definitely not an N64 supporter. Even RE2 wasn't done internally at Capcom, it was done by Angel Studios, who had previously made the two Ken Griffey games on N64 and were a part of the original Dream Team, I believe.

Games with on-cart saving typically cost even more than a regular N64 game, which was already more expensive than a Playstation game. PSX memory cards were quite cheap. You could buy a Playstation game and a memory card for the cost of an N64 game alone.

Cost more to the developers, yes, but not to the customer, necessarily. Remember, all of Nintendo's first-party titles have internal save. Nintendo did not massively overprice its own games. Some third parties did, but they did this to some games without internal save as well, so that wasn't the whole explanation, they just wanted to make more money... which is why most of the time they just required controller paks, lower costs.

But anyway, it's not true that N64 games with internal save were always more expensive. Also, by 1999 or so N64 prices had decreased. I got my N64 that year, and never paid more than $50 for anything, and I bought new games sometimes. Few games were priced higher than that by that point. The price issue was mostly a problem early on.

Since when are load times the worst thing in the world? In the vast majority of games, they're only a few seconds. When a game does have long load times, it's a fault of the game, not the disc format. Even on Sega CD, lots of games have very minimal loading. Fun fact: The Sega CD version of Out of This World actually loads faster than the SNES version.

It's the fault of the game? No, not really. 2d fighting games have horrible load times on all CD systems that generation except the Saturn with 4MB RAM cart for a good reason, and it's not one that had anything to do with the fault of the games. And yes, there is the occasional cartridge game with loading.

Hydro Thunder on the N64, for example. It has loading, maybe 3 or 4 seconds to get into a race or see the best-times table, maybe a second between track and boat selection. However... just look at the loading times on the Dreamcast version and those load times look AMAZING. Seriously, on DC that game takes forever to load! It affects how much fun I have with the game to the point that I absolutely would prefer to play the N64 version, even if it runs a bit slower and has slightly worse graphics... that loading is just really annoying.

Sometimes good programming can reduce the impact of loading time, but for a long time such things were few and far between... but I actually will agree about the Sega CD, I haven't been annoyed by the loading in most SCD games I've played. There's only one where it really affected play, the combat animations in Dark Wizard (which take forever to load and are short and irrelevant for anything other than looking nice), but you can disable them, so that's not too bad. I guess that the areas loading are just smaller... though I will say, I haven't tried to play any 2d fighting games on the thing. From what I've heard about MK1 Sega CD, it's pretty bad there...

But anyway, sure, on PSX and such some games have loading that's not too bad, others have loading that's really annoying. But the point is, N64 loading times are less across the board -- and why waste any more time looking at loading screens than you have to?

In any case, the cartridge format was quite limiting. It's not just music, and it's not just video. And neither of those are insignificant either.

Yeah, it's not just music or video, because while those are drawbacks, they aren't that big ones. It's about the load times, memory access times, durability, and on-cart save options. Those are all very strong good points for carts over CDs. But I somehow doubt we'll ever agree on anything here...

[Kid Fenris]

Sure, FMV's not all bad. Blizzard is my favorite game developer (for their RTS games in particular), and I've always been very impressed by their CG FMV work... but that is not gameplay, and gameplay is what matters the most for games. Having fancy FMVs does nothing to help your game's actual gameplay. And the N64 clearly wins in that department, in my opinion.

Even if the Nintendo 64 had clearly superior gameplay (an argument that only the most delusional of the system's fans will put forth), it wouldn't be due to cartridges.

Yeah, it's not just music or video, because while those are drawbacks, they aren't that big ones. It's about the load times, memory access times, durability, and on-cart save options. Those are all very strong good points for carts over CDs.

Not one of those is a strong point for carts, because not one of those has any relevant effect on the content of a game.

[j_factor]

There are some N64 games with decent-quality vocal music, such as Top Gear Overdrive, and others with plenty of voiced dialog, like Shadow Man, Conker, PD, Rogue Squadron, etc. You can't do as many songs on N64 as on PSX (maybe like six seems to be the limit in most voiced-dialog-songs games), but quality is plenty good enough. N64 audio is not that bad.

Of course N64 audio isn't all bad. The N64 sound chip is perfectly capable. It's a problem of capacity.

Of course DDR would only suffer with only a few songs, though. That is something designed for CDs, sure. Just like how anything with lots of stuff to load is better on cart.

You said, "N64 games did not suffer in any way graphically or in game design." I would say DDR suffered in game design. And the N64 overall suffered because a lot of games are more suited to CD. Some games are better suited to cartridges, but relatively few.

Sure, FMV's not all bad. Blizzard is my favorite game developer (for their RTS games in particular), and I've always been very impressed by their CG FMV work... but that is not gameplay, and gameplay is what matters the most for games. Having fancy FMVs does nothing to help your game's actual gameplay. And the N64 clearly wins in that department, in my opinion.

I play a game for the overall experience, not strictly the core gameplay. Having FMVs (which I really don't consider "fancy") absolutely does make some games better. I already gave you an example with Oddworld. Do you really think that game would've been just as fun without the FMVs? Would Mr. Bones?

It's the fault of the game? No, not really. 2d fighting games have horrible load times on all CD systems that generation except the Saturn with 4MB RAM cart for a good reason, and it's not one that had anything to do with the fault of the games. And yes, there is the occasional cartridge game with loading.

And yet, you didn't see hardly any 2d fighting games on N64 at all, did you? There's a good reason for that. Most of them by then were too large, with lots of animation data. Samurai Shodown 4, which came out the same year N64 launched, was 94.5 MB on Neo Geo, roughly 50% larger than RE2 and multiple times larger than Mario 64. They ported it to Neo Geo CD, Saturn, and Playstation. The Playstation version took a dip in quality due to limited RAM, but was still fairly intact. Yes, these versions had loading times -- simply because there's so much data. More, in fact, than N64 could've handled.

Could the N64 have handled a port of SamSho 4 in some way? Sure. It would've been significantly cut down, but feasible. But it's also true that if they had cut down the Playstation version to an N64-level amount of data, it would've had far less, if any, loading.

Sometimes good programming can reduce the impact of loading time, but for a long time such things were few and far between...

Disagreed. Truly bad load times were always the exception, not the rule.

But anyway, sure, on PSX and such some games have loading that's not too bad, others have loading that's really annoying. But the point is, N64 loading times are less across the board -- and why waste any more time looking at loading screens than you have to?

Because the benefits (plural) outweigh the drawback (singular).

Have you played the N64 version of Tony Hawk? It's pretty silly. I'd much rather play the Dreamcast (or even PSX) version, even though I have to wait a couple seconds to load a level.

Yeah, it's not just music or video, because while those are drawbacks, they aren't that big ones. It's about the load times, memory access times, durability, and on-cart save options. Those are all very strong good points for carts over CDs. But I somehow doubt we'll ever agree on anything here...

Yeah, I really don't think load times, "memory access times" (isn't that the same issue as load times?), durability (I have never broken a CD), or on-cart saving (doesn't add anything), outweigh music and video. Music and video are specifically important to a lot of games. I've played games that rely on music and/or video to convey the right atmosphere, and sometimes for the gameplay itself (would Phantasmagoria work without video? I think not). I don't think I've played a single game that relied on a lack of load time or on-cart saving.

I can think of lots of Playstation and Saturn games that wouldn't have worked on N64. I can't think of any N64 games that wouldn't have worked on Playstation or Saturn, other than in the sense of N64 being a bit more powerful graphically.

[A Black Falcon]

Even if the Nintendo 64 had clearly superior gameplay (an argument that only the most delusional of the system's fans will put forth), it wouldn't be due to cartridges.

What, because only a delusional N64 fan could possibly dare to say that the PSX didn't have the best gameplay of that generation? Only a hardcore Sony fan and Nintendo hater would say such a ridiculous thing...

Seriously though, that's an absolutely ridiculous thing to say. What, does having more games make a system's gameplay better now or something? Um, no.

I mean, all other things being equal, you'd think that the best chance for the best games would come from the most powerful system. The N64 was the most powerful system that generation. As a result, it has the best looking and most technically advanced games (this is really not up for debate; you can say that you like PSX graphics better, plenty of people do, but on an objective level the N64 looks better.), and, I would say, the best gameplay as well.

Not one of those is a strong point for carts, because not one of those has any relevant effect on the content of a game.

Load times have an impact on gameplay, yes they most certainly do.

Beyond that though, if you recall, when defending the carts decision along with the load times point, one of the other things Nintendo made a big deal about was saying that the games on N64 were only possible on cartridge and that on CD they could not have been done as they were. This was surely partially propaganda, but not entirely. The fast access times of a cart allow you to make larger game areas than you can do on CD unless you've come up with a pretty good streaming technique; later on some PSX games of some kinds managed that, but on N64 it's just naturally there, no problem, all the time. This absolutely makes a difference in terms of game design.

Of course N64 audio isn't all bad. The N64 sound chip is perfectly capable. It's a problem of capacity.

The N64 doesn't have a sound chip. This is one reason people criticize the audio, because unlike SNES it didn't have a dedicated audio chip. I think that things turned out okay anyway.

You said, "N64 games did not suffer in any way graphically or in game design." I would say DDR suffered in game design. And the N64 overall suffered because a lot of games are more suited to CD. Some games are better suited to cartridges, but relatively few.

Yeah, I know, only 2d and 3d games of pretty much every genre except for FMV games and music games are better on carts. That's not many kinds of games, sure.

I play a game for the overall experience, not strictly the core gameplay. Having FMVs (which I really don't consider "fancy") absolutely does make some games better. I already gave you an example with Oddworld. Do you really think that game would've been just as fun without the FMVs? Would Mr. Bones?

The gameplay in Oddworld isn't affected by the FMV, only the story... and sure, they're amusing, but if they'd tried it on N64 I'm sure they'd have come up with a decent way of doing it.

As for Mr. Bones, never played it. But again, FMV isn't gameplay. But anyway, I agreed that sometimes FMV is nice... but it's not gameplay, and gameplay is what matters most in games. Of course every aspect of the experience counts, but things that actually happen while you are playing -- the gameplay, graphics, music, etc -- should count more than things which are non-interactive and you are just watching. FMV can be a useful storytelling tool, but as Command & Conquer 64 shows for example, removing all the FMV from an FMV-heavy game actually doesn't hurt it very much. C&C 64 is still a very good game (and plus, it has new, N64-exclusive 3d graphics which actually look quite nice!).

Disagreed. Truly bad load times were always the exception, not the rule.

Not in a lot of genres, that's for sure.

Because the benefits (plural) outweigh the drawback (singular).

Have you played the N64 version of Tony Hawk? It's pretty silly. I'd much rather play the Dreamcast (or even PSX) version, even though I have to wait a couple seconds to load a level.

Never played N64 Tony Hawk, no. Never played it on PSX either; I'm not a series fan, and the little bit I have played has only been on DC and Gamecube. I have Tony Hawk 2 for DC, but haven't played it much. But what does that have to do with this point? They have loading times or something that are as long as on DC?

And yet, you didn't see hardly any 2d fighting games on N64 at all, did you? There's a good reason for that. Most of them by then were too large, with lots of animation data. Samurai Shodown 4, which came out the same year N64 launched, was 94.5 MB on Neo Geo, roughly 50% larger than RE2 and multiple times larger than Mario 64. They ported it to Neo Geo CD, Saturn, and Playstation. The Playstation version took a dip in quality due to limited RAM, but was still fairly intact. Yes, these versions had loading times -- simply because there's so much data. More, in fact, than N64 could've handled.

Could the N64 have handled a port of SamSho 4 in some way? Sure. It would've been significantly cut down, but feasible. But it's also true that if they had cut down the Playstation version to an N64-level amount of data, it would've had far less, if any, loading.

That is absolutely not true. First, your sizes are wrong. Samurai Shodown IV was 47.2MB, not 94. Neo-Geo roms can be deceptive because they often have duplicated information in them to boost file sizes, for some reason... by the end Neo-Geo games did reach about 80MB, but if you look at all the cuts to animation done on the PSX and Saturn versions to fit it in those systems' limited RAM, it's not like those versions were that big.

Originally the Neo-Geo was supposed to be limited to 330Mb (about 40MB), as the logo screen says with "Max 330 Mega". That only changed later in the system's life. But anyway, N64 versions of SNK fighting games may have needed small cuts, but nothing worse than was happening on PSX and Saturn for RAM reasons, I believe. Certainly the ports would be a a lot better than the SNES ports of earlier Neo-Geo games... and even there some were pretty good, like World Heroes 2 and King of the Monsters 2 for example.

Anyway, the reason that the N64 didn't have more 2d fighting games had absolutely nothing to do with cart size limits. It had everything to do with the simple fact that Japanese publishers didn't want to support the N64. This can be supported by looking at who actually DID make fighting games on the N64. It was, surprise, companies supporting it better! So, Midway was the biggest producer of fighting games on the N64. Many of the rest were also Western, because the N64 had pretty good Western support. Konami made several as well, because they were one of the stronger Japanese supporters of the system (including one 2d one as well as some 3d).

Capcom didn't make fighting games on N64 because they didn't make much of anything on N64. If they'd started supporting the platform earlier, I'd bet we'd have seen something. At least 3d stuff like an N64 version Street Fighter EX, maybe something 2d as well... maybe in some cases you'd need to cut some animation to fit into the carts, but again, compared to the cuts being made on other versions for RAM reasons, the only home ports that may have looked better than these prospective N64 ones would be Neo-Geo games and Saturn games that supported the 4MB RAM cart (which except for one beat 'em up was only supported by fighting games).

I strongly believe that this really was a huge missed opportunity for Capcom and SNK. The N64 has Nintendo's best gamepad ever, their only one with six face buttons, and hardware that would have meant for short loading times, unlike the uniformly very long ones everywhere except Saturn 4MB (or Jaguar)... and they did nothing with it. Very disappointing, but cart size was definitely not a factor, the games would have looked fine and played great, I'm certain, had they actually tried.

[Kid Fenris]

What, because only a delusional N64 fan could possibly dare to say that the PSX didn't have the best gameplay of that generation? Only a hardcore Sony fan and Nintendo hater would say such a ridiculous thing...

Seriously though, that's an absolutely ridiculous thing to say. What, does having more games make a system's gameplay better now or something? Um, no.

You've missed the point, so I'll spell it out for you: only a delusional fan would claim that the Nintendo 64's library features obviously better gameplay than contemporary disc-based systems. By any reasonable critical measure, the best-playing games of the era were distributed among all of the major systems.

I strongly believe that this really was a huge missed opportunity for Capcom and SNK. The N64 has Nintendo's best gamepad ever, their only one with six face buttons, and hardware that would have meant for short loading times, unlike the uniformly very long ones everywhere except Saturn 4MB (or Jaguar)... and they did nothing with it. Very disappointing, but cart size was definitely not a factor, the games would have looked fine and played great, I'm certain, had they actually tried.

OK, this MUST be a joke post.

[j_factor]

Yeah, I know, only 2d and 3d games of pretty much every genre except for FMV games and music games are better on carts. That's not many kinds of games, sure.

Very funny. Pretty much every genre is better on CD, barring massive cartridges. Still not seeing how load times outweight content.

First, your sizes are wrong. Samurai Shodown IV was 47.2MB, not 94.

You're right, my math was wrong. But still, 47MB was significantly larger than any N64 game at the time, due to cost.

Never played N64 Tony Hawk, no. Never played it on PSX either; I'm not a series fan, and the little bit I have played has only been on DC and Gamecube. I have Tony Hawk 2 for DC, but haven't played it much. But what does that have to do with this point? They have loading times or something that are as long as on DC?

Point is, I would rather have a few seconds of loading in an otherwise better version of a game, than have an instantly loading version that sucks in all other areas of comparison. The Sega CD version of Earthworm Jim has loading times between levels, but it also has additional content, improved animation, and an excellent re-done soundtrack. I've never heard anyone disagree that the Sega CD version is the best version.

Anyway, the reason that the N64 didn't have more 2d fighting games had absolutely nothing to do with cart size limits. It had everything to do with the simple fact that Japanese publishers didn't want to support the N64.

How is that not related? Cartridges were the very reason Japanese publishers didn't want to support the N64 in the first place.