Paypal account frozen question.

[Zthun]

Some of you will not agree with what I did, considering that probably most people here are sellers, and everyone hates it when buyers want their money back.

I had bought this genesis lot from this guy for $55 dollars. Nothing to pee your pants over, mostly just a bunch of good commons and a poor condition toejam and earl cart. I get the games and (surprise) none of them work. In the auction, it was stated that the game were in good condition. So I started to clean them when I noticed something strange. The pins were corroded (the bad green kind); I had to get the gamebits to open up the games to clean them fully. I contact the seller about this, and he agrees to wait a week to let me attempt to salvage the games so we can avoid a refund.

I get the tools and open up the games and begin a thorough cleaning job of the pins. Much to my dismay, I noticed that the pins were not only corroded, but the actual metal connectors were completely gone. These games were basically dead.

I contact the seller and ask for a refund for which I will return the games. I explain to him that there is nothing I can do for them. He ignores my messages, so I open a paypal dispute. Within a day and without my authorization, paypal automatically upgrades it to a claim and files in the sellers favor because I attempted to clean the games. I had a shouting match with a paypal support representative on the phone trying to explain my position, but he wouldn't have anything to do with it.

So I said f*** you to both paypal and the seller. I packaged up the games, slapped a shipping label on them, and sent them back to the seller. I called my bank and had them reverse the charge and gave them a tracking number for the returned items. Within another day, I get whine emails from paypal saying that they lost $55 from a bank return and froze my account (which I expected - it didn't have any money in it so I didn't give a s***). I filled out all of the steps to unlock it, but I got another email stating that they need one more item, and that's the $55 from the chargeback to unlock my account. Screw that.

I don't know if this will be resolved on its own by a normal chargeback to the seller; I want to know if this account is hosed. If I can't unfreeze it, then I'll probably just open another account with different information. Has any buyer had a problem similar to this?

[portnoyd]

I haven't had anything similar to this, but I think you did the right move. You put the due diligence to get the games working and Paypal used it against you. So you use your bank against Paypal. The seller should sack up and reverse the claim, but he won't because he won.

You won't unfreeze the account unless you give up the $55. Fwiw, Paypal will never try and get that $55 by debt collectors or the like so you can give up the account without any more hassle. If you had a bank account and/or credit card on Paypal, you won't be able to use it on the new account, but a new email address and some tweaked personal info will give you a new account.

[Vroomfunkel]

Your account will not be unfrozen until you pay. Paypal may send a few threatening emails, saying they will sell the debt to debt collectors - but they won't. Debt collection agencies wouldn't buy a $55 debt - it's not worth their while to pursue it.

Just open another account with new details. You won't be able to use any of the bank / credit card details that are associated with the frozen account, and you'll need a different email address too.

Also, if Paypal link you with the old account somehow then they may freeze the new account - so if you can use a different address/phone no. too then all the better

I've done it too - for some schmuck who wouldn't pay for registered postage, then claimed his game never arrived, but wouldn't give any details for the insurance claim and filed a Paypal claim against me. I always withdraw the money straight away, so Paypal put me in the red and then froze the account when I wouldn't reimburse them.

[staxx]

Never deal with disputes through paypal. Always use your credit card company if you can. One time I had a dispute with a seller when they shipped me the wrong game. I emailed the seller and he ignored multiple messages so I filed a dispute with paypal. I had to go through a very long process of getting the item that I received appraised by someone (i.e. a store game owner), wait for over a month while they do their investigation and have the seller respond. I basically had to call them up and yelled at them that they are stupid to follow their standard process when it is the wrong F*CKING item that was sent to me. Eventually it worked out and I got the refund, but I had to go through this long ass process. Had I used the credit card there would have been 0 hassle.

[ryborg]

Within a day and without my authorization, paypal automatically upgrades it to a claim...

Paypal's not the one who escalated the claim. They can't. Only the buyer or seller can, and they can do so at any time. In theory, a buyer can send a payment to a seller, one second later file an Item Not Received dispute and one second later, upgrade it to a claim. A woman did that to me a few months ago because I filed a Non-Paying Bidder alert on her.

I always withdraw the money straight away, so Paypal put me in the red and then froze the account when I wouldn't reimburse them.

Years ago, if your account was ever negative due to disputes, claims or whatnot, Paypal would automatically take the money from any linked bank or credit account to zero it. I always found that highly questionable. Do they not do this anymore, or do you guys not have any other accounts linked to your Paypal account?

And yes, Zthun, you did the right thing and your PP account is likely toast. Not a big deal. You can just make a new one.

[Zthun]

Interesting thing happened. Even though they wanted a reinbursement, my account balance remained at 0. So I gave PP a call and asked them why my account was still locked (omitting all the details), and (gasp), they unfroze it. I'm not sure if someone made a mistake or what, but it looks like it's all OK. I'll have to wait a few days to see what happens.

I'll probably remove the bank account I have on it and my main debit card, and I'll get a separate checking account and a separate credit card just for paypal transactions. Normally, I would drop a company after pulling something like this, but I have no choice if I want to continue shopping on ebay. Big gotcha there.

Years ago, if your account was ever negative due to disputes, claims or whatnot, Paypal would automatically take the money from any linked bank or credit account to zero it. I always found that highly questionable. Do they not do this anymore, or do you guys not have any other accounts linked to your Paypal account?

I have my bank account and my debit card on there and they didn't take money out without my authorization. I've heard horror stories about this, but it hasn't happened to me yet, so I can't be sure.

[rpepper9]

Wow, you really went 0-60 in one second. The above post is correct that PayPal cannot escalate to a claim, so it had to have been the seller. It is common policy for PayPal to freeze the funds in a claim for both a seller and a buyer, so that was not unusual.

However when you say that PayPal decided for the seller already, that is where things get off track. In my experience PayPal takes a very long time to make any decision in a claim. So, you jumped the gun going to your bank and DUH! they are going to freeze your account when you start taking measures outside of PayPal's system. The way PayPal works is they will put the money on hold, they did not take it from you account and put it in the buyers account, all funds involved are frozen. The buyer also could potentially have a negative PayPal balance when they removed the 55.00 from their account. It is like your account was now overdrawn, your bank would freeze your account, and charge you fees if you were over drawn, did you really think PayPal would be any different?

Also calling anyone on the phone and yelling at them is no way to get anything accomplished in a civilized society!

[Zthun]

Wow, you really went 0-60 in one second. The above post is correct that PayPal cannot escalate to a claim, so it had to have been the seller. It is common policy for PayPal to freeze the funds in a claim for both a seller and a buyer, so that was not unusual.

The funny part is that they didn't freeze my funds during the claim. The case was closed the moment the claim was made and they decided for the seller without even asking me for anything.

However when you say that PayPal decided for the seller already, that is where things get off track. In my experience PayPal takes a very long time to make any decision in a claim. So, you jumped the gun going to your bank and DUH! they are going to freeze your account when you start taking measures outside of PayPal's system. The way PayPal works is they will put the money on hold, they did not take it from you account and put it in the buyers account, all funds involved are frozen. The buyer also could potentially have a negative PayPal balance when they removed the 55.00 from their account. It is like your account was now overdrawn, your bank would freeze your account, and charge you fees if you were over drawn, did you really think PayPal would be any different?

I would think so too, but this was not the case. Paypal filed for the seller and closed the case IMMEDIATELY after talking with the seller. You would think they would contact me as well, but nope.

Also calling anyone on the phone and yelling at them is no way to get anything accomplished in a civilized society!

I agree, but I'm not going to just sit back and take it when people working for 'professional' companies start giving me attitude for using customer support. If someone wants to wimp out at the very moment of any conflict, that's their own personal problem.

[rpepper9]

Cool! So you did get your money back. Sent the crap games back, and your PayPal account is still active? Sounds like everything worked out in the end.

[slidee]

I've had times where I've called Paypal and gotten so close to getting into screaming matches with them but I never do because I know it wont make a difference. The trick to getting Paypal to do what you want them to is just understanding how their policies work. Even though many of their policies can never be fair for both the seller and the buyer, understanding how they work is crucial, just as long as you do not exploit them. You should have just filed a "Significantly Not As Described" dispute and then immediately escalated it to a claim and then just been done with it... Paypal would have sided with you, you would have had to send the games back anyway, and then this whole mess with the bank wouldn't have happened.

[Baloo]

Paypal can go fuck themselves. All these crappy seller and buyer rules make eBay and Paypal too much of a hassle and too fucking complicated.

You did the right thing with that bank charge reversal.

[Vroomfunkel]

Years ago, if your account was ever negative due to disputes, claims or whatnot, Paypal would automatically take the money from any linked bank or credit account to zero it. I always found that highly questionable. Do they not do this anymore, or do you guys not have any other accounts linked to your Paypal account.

I don't know about the US, but that is illegal in the UK - all transactions have to be authorised by the account holder - and for things like direct debits, they have to tell you 10 days in advance how much they are going to take and you can cancel it if you dispute the charge. So if Paypal ever tried that here, then you could just call the bank / credit card company and tell them that you did not authorise the transaction, and they would have to reverse it.

[Zthun]

I've had times where I've called Paypal and gotten so close to getting into screaming matches with them but I never do because I know it wont make a difference. The trick to getting Paypal to do what you want them to is just understanding how their policies work. Even though many of their policies can never be fair for both the seller and the buyer, understanding how they work is crucial, just as long as you do not exploit them. You should have just filed a "Significantly Not As Described" dispute and then immediately escalated it to a claim and then just been done with it... Paypal would have sided with you, you would have had to send the games back anyway, and then this whole mess with the bank wouldn't have happened.

Yeah, I think from now on, if a seller's fucked me over with non-working games, I'm not even going to contact him. I'm just gonna go to paypal file a claim, send the shit back, get my money back, and be done with it - no questions or whining.

So the seller refused the return package and had it returned to me. No clue what happens now, but I just don't care when it comes to this guy.

[rik1138]

Yeah, I think from now on, if a seller's fucked me over with non-working games, I'm not even going to contact him. I'm just gonna go to paypal file a claim, send the shit back, get my money back, and be done with it - no questions or whining.

So the seller refused the return package and had it returned to me. No clue what happens now, but I just don't care when it comes to this guy.

He probably doesn't care. He got his money, he probably thinks if he accepts the package PayPal will take it from him. He doesn't even know you got your refund already. You proved you shipped the items... If the seller didn't want them back, oh well...

[rpepper9]

I would keep the refused package even though you have your refund back from PayPal. The seller could still say the games were never returned. Even though you have a return tracking number the Post also probably has record that the package was refused!