NES Top Loader

[jperryss]

Thanks already for all of the great comments. I noticed a console on ebay that has already been modded to have an AV out so I was curious if people recommended things like that. Will there be any difference in visual/audio quality if I use a modded one with AV out as opposed to a standard one without it? I can use either connection with my TV.

I don't know jack squat about what the AV mods consist of, but from what I've read, SOME of them will reduce/eliminate the white lines, and some won't.

Is the thing really that expensive anymore? With the flood of nexes and what not on ebay I don't see them going for much over 40 anymore...I didn't really look too deep into prices but it doesn't seem to hit what it used to.

They're still a bit pricey and are pretty much the only way to go if you want a toploader with 100% compatibility. And the dogbone controllers rule.

[Raedon]

You have the details incorrect. The problem is caused by the luminescence (how bright) or chroma (color) signals being misinterpreted for the other; it actually has nothing to do with "color channels." There is an advantage in separating out color signals so each has more bandwidth, but you don't get separate color signals until YPbPR component or RGB (another type of component video).

S-Video does not have separated color signals; its improvements are wholly due to luma and chroma being carried on separate lines. The extra two pins you see on an S-Video plug are ground pins for each of the signals.

By the way, here's a tip for S-Video cable users: When using an S-Video plug, only plug in the black S-video plug and the left and right audio channels (white and red usually). Don't plug in the yellow cable (if it has one) because your equipment may (theoretically) choose that video over the S-Video signal. It's not so likely to happen but it's a good reminder what you're actually using, and saves a few seconds and wear and tear when you're hooking it up.

It is actually possible to improve the video output quality with most composite RCA signals (i.e. one-plug video on the yellow plug) by using a comb filter, but it does this by adding the signal to itself with a delay, so it inherently introduces some lag. However much, I couldn't say. With a CRT set and a good comb filter this is probably much less than a modern LCD screen, but at the minimum you're probably looking at nothing less than multiple milliseconds (hundredths of a second). Not a lot of delay, but it starts to add up when you're using new equipment.

Just keeping it simple ... stupid.

[Jorpho]

How exactly do you get RGB out of a NES, if you wanted to? Has it actually been done yet?

[Raedon]

How exactly do you get RGB out of a NES, if you wanted to? Has it actually been done yet?

It doesn't work that way. The video chip is going to determine what you can and can't get. Not saying I know anything at all about the NES but the SNES system 1 could output RGB right out the back along with S-video. The little SNES couldn't output anything but component. You use a S-Video cable and just get blank screen and audio.

[Arasoi]

It is possible to get RGB out of an NES or famicom, but it requires desoldering the PPU and replacing it with a PPU from a VS Duck Hunt or Tennis, or Playchoice arcade PPU, then amping the signal. The stock PPU does not have RGB, it encodes it directly into composite video.

Doing this can cause some interesting palette isues with certain games as they were designed to work with the original PPU. Odd stuff can occur with grays, whites and blacks. Most consider it worth it because of the very crisp picture quality, but I'd be lying if I said it wasn't a pain in the butt to get this mod done.

The smaller/SNES2 model of SNES can output RGB, but you have to tap it off the motherboard.

[Ed Oscuro]

Just keeping it simple ... stupid.

Just getting it wrong. Nobody asked for a fairy tale, and it's not hard to grasp or explain the differences. You never know when somebody is gonna go all Anthony1 or Arasoi RGB nuts and need to know the difference. Also, shadowkn55's post was the right answer to Jorpho's question; it's easy to forget or not have known about the particular issue on the Toploader and Jorpho wouldn't have mistaken the two (that last bit is a guess).

It doesn't work that way. The video chip is going to determine what you can and can't get. Not saying I know anything at all about the NES but the SNES system 1 could output RGB right out the back along with S-video. The little SNES couldn't output anything but component. You use a S-Video cable and just get blank screen and audio.

You're right that the video chip determines what video outputs are available, but the video chip doesn't have any bearing in various SNESes on whether you can get various outputs, since SNES PPUs output RGB to be encoded elsewhere on the board. It's a mod, (information HERE), which certainly isn't as easy as a cable (and I don't like to do them i.e. pay for one and then figure out how to use the RGB output later), but on the SNES 2 you just pick up the RGB off the motherboard and fiddle with it elsewhere (either an amplifier or a resistor is likely needed, not sure). On the plus side the SNES 2 reportedly has better composite A/V out of the RCA jacks than the SNES 1 (I ought to look into this soon, but the SNES 2's composite is quite nice) - of course S-video beats both. The SNES 2 is probably the better console if you have a TV like ~75% of those I see at thrifts, which have RCA jacks but no s-video.

[Icarus Moonsight]

For that composite dot-crawl, I find that a coaxial RCA cable can help it a bit. Still present, but less.

I've shelved my top loader this year. Might just mod it for RCA composite/dual-mono then sell it. I don't see myself using it anymore. When I did, I ran the RF to a DVD recorder and got AV off of it. Same as I used to do with my TG16.

With the toasters, you pop out the pin4 on the lockout chip, install loopy's Fami/FDS sound mod (one 47k resistor soldered to two pins on the expansion port, simple) and use a fami-to-nes adapter. After just those few simple things, you have a cheap version with the same functionality of the AV-Fami and a honeybee. Toss the PowerPak in there and you got an FDS/AV-Fami too.

Sure, you might have to fiddle with the 72-pin once in a while. But that's not so bad if you have a few units backing them up. Playability is uninterrupted and you can bend back them pins later when you have the spare time. Just in case that ever becomes a hassle (unlikely, but this is a contingency plan), I tore down the case on a Game Genie yesterday. Planning to wire the slot from it to a hacked off to the edge connector old 72-pin to convert one of the toasters to top load cart reliability. That will also be easily transferable between toaster units, since I'm soldering to the edge connector and not the board pins themselves. Since they are all working fine right now (all were blinky), I got time before it's needed. When I finally do that, I'll trim down to just two toasters (one for use, and a project/backup system) and cull the rest. I might try to RGB one of them... Haven't decided for sure yet. Seems expensive and the color palette issues bother me a bit. I can run them composite through an VGA box already. That might be just good enough.

Until someone figures out how to get expansion audio out of the top loader, it's not near as useful/beneficial as it was vs the front tray loader. IDK if it can run expansion audio at all... Being that the two middle pins on the systems cart connector are not present.