Nintendo 3DS - Official Thread

[InsaneDavid]

They already did this like 14 years ago, and I think they did an excellent job at it then.

Well said.

[jb143]

I was having a hard time describing myself so I whipped up this description of how I feel this will more than likely work.

First off...Sorry for the crudity of my model, I didn't have time to paint it or to build it to scale.

For most modern 3D games there is a virtual camera, and its view is rendered to the screen like so...



To get 3D, you need a view for each eye. So you render 2 camera views, one slightly to the right, and one slightly to the left. Each image would be slightly different and would be something (sorta) like this...



When it's rendered to the screen, each row of pixels would alternate which image it comes from. Viewing it like this, the 2 images would appear to simply overlap. But by putting a lenticular lens or parallax barrier over the display, then each eye would only be able to see the rows of pixels from either the right or left camera rendering. Like so...


This would fool your brain into seeing a 3D image coming out of and going into the screen giving the illusion of depth, sort of like (but much better than my crummy image edit of) this...



[/lesson on 3D displays]

[kupomogli]

The image looks like it's really coming out of the screen!

[Mimi Nakamura]

I doubt it would use head or eye tracking. It's a handheld so it wouldn't make as much sense as on a TV. It would also add too much cost/complexity. I guess it's possible they could add eye tracking but even that would be a stretch.

I also have some issues with the guy in that video making it sound soo easy to add this to games(Boom Blox was supposedly going to but they cut it). In his examples, everything is either vertical or horizontal to the screen. For more complex shapes, it would take a completely different rendering engine to render everything in the correct perspecive view. Also, with a handheld, the "3D" effect wouldn't be as good since your eye's would be too close(You would have to close 1 eye for it look right).

I'm still sticking with a lenticular lens (or parallax barrier) over an LCD since that's a technology currently in use to do the same exact thing Nintendo is suggesting.

Now you're just making stuff up regarding costs / complexity, seems as we've already seen an example of sensor perspective 3D it with the DSi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5QSclrIdlE

How can 3D not be as good close up when using sensor technology? That makes no sense... You'd have to close one eye for it to look right? Why do you think that? The screen image changes depending on your position - it's not 3D lens technology.

[jb143]

Watch that video again. All the objects are either parallel or 90 degrees to the screen. And they are all flat...like they are paper cutouts. That makes the calculations easy. Anything not 0 or 90 degrees to the screen gets complicated. Also, your looking at it through a camera (1 eye). With 2 eyes you can tell that it's just an image changing on the screen because that's where your eyes have to focus to see the image. There's no stereoscopic vision. I've done the Wiimote experiment myself and can tell you for a fact that's how it feels. Its still cool but you can tell it's not 3D unless you close one eye (or squint).

I'm 99% sure that the setup I described up above is what they will do.

Now, combining the 2 technologies, that would be the most immersive..

[Zap!]

I was glad I hadn't bought a DSi when I heard they were coming out with a DSi XL. Now I'm glad I haven't bought a DSi XL.

It isn't as annoying for me since I have disposable income and can buy these things, but it has to completely suck for the little kid who saved up a bunch of birthday money to buy a DSi XL to hear news like this.

Why? That little kid has at least a year to save, and probably can get half or more of what he paid for the DSiXL by selling it.

[Icarus Moonsight]

I honestly don't know what to think about it at this point. I have to have it in hand before I can be sure either way. Riding the fence on this one...

Pessimist says;

Though, I do somewhat fear this could be VB2. They've boofed it before... Depends on the execution, completely.

Optimist says;

Personally, I would love to see some visual depth given to hand drawn sprites and some legacy titles getting the "3D" treatment. Imagine a port of Super Metroid, where the sprites 'pop' and the environments have depth of field.

[Mimi Nakamura]

Watch that video again. All the objects are either parallel or 90 degrees to the screen. And they are all flat...like they are paper cutouts. That makes the calculations easy. Anything not 0 or 90 degrees to the screen gets complicated. Also, your looking at it through a camera (1 eye). With 2 eyes you can tell that it's just an image changing on the screen because that's where your eyes have to focus to see the image. There's no stereoscopic vision. I've done the Wiimote experiment myself and can tell you for a fact that's how it feels. Its still cool but you can tell it's not 3D unless you close one eye (or squint).

I'm 99% sure that the setup I described up above is what they will do.

Now, combining the 2 technologies, that would be the most immersive..

Wait, so now you're going back what you said previously about sensor technology being expensive / complex to implement?

The DS game that uses the exact same technique as the Wii demo - you don't need to close one eye for it to work, I'm not sure why you think this? It's a real DSi game, not a demo, it works.

[jb143]

Wait, so now you're going back what you said previously about sensor technology being expensive / complex to implement?

The DS game that uses the exact same technique as the Wii demo - you don't need to close one eye for it to work, I'm not sure why you think this? It's a real DSi game, not a demo, it works.

[Sigh]...I didn't go back on anything. I was simply stating that it would be cool if they did both.

The Wii(remote) demo(it's running a PC program using the Wii remote's IR camera through bluetooth connection and don't even use a Wii) makes you wear an IR LED headset. Are you honestly suggesting that the 3DS is going to make players do that?

Ok, I'm going to try to explain this simply to make it easy to understand(sorry, not my strong suit). Yes, you can get a cool looking perspective effect using head/eye tracking. What happens is that the computer renders the view from the perspective of the angle of your eye looking at the screen. With 1 eye, this can be very convincing and look almost holographic. The problem is that we have TWO eyes, and to really see something in 3D it has to render a view for each eye. Otherwise the viewer would be quite aware that they are looking at a flat 2D image that is just changing as you move the screen around. The reason it looks so good in the videos is because it's tracking a camera(1 eye). Now, if you are far enough from the screen(like across the room looking at a TV), the difference in angles your eye's have to focus on isn't as great so you can almost get away with it(I found it helps if you squint). But for a handheld? The screen is just a few feet from your face. The difference in angles between your eyes is going to be much greater if an object is supposed to move just an inch or 2 "into" the screen.

Do this...Hold up 1 finger from each hand about a foot away from your face and focus on them. Now move 1 finger about 2 inches away and focus on it the whole time. Notice how closer finger looks like it spits in 2? This is the effect that you would get from an autostereoscopy display. With just head tracking, if a virtual object were to move farther the the screen if you focus on it, you would still be focusing on the screen itself, no matter how close or far it is from the screen.

Also, according to this article, some cell phones in Japan already use this technology for 3D displays(have you seen any by any chance?). If it's a current technology already in use for handheld displays then it would only make sense to use the same thing for a handheld game. Ecpecially if they are presenting it as having a 3D display and not tracking tricks having nothing to do with the display.

[Mimi Nakamura]

[Sigh]...I didn't go back on anything. I was simply stating that it would be cool if they did both.

The Wii(remote) demo(it's running a PC program using the Wii remote's IR camera through bluetooth connection and don't even use a Wii) makes you wear an IR LED headset. Are you honestly suggesting that the 3DS is going to make players do that?

Ok, I'm going to try to explain this simply to make it easy to understand(sorry, not my strong suit). Yes, you can get a cool looking perspective effect using head/eye tracking. What happens is that the computer renders the view from the perspective of the angle of your eye looking at the screen. With 1 eye, this can be very convincing and look almost holographic. The problem is that we have TWO eyes, and to really see something in 3D it has to render a view for each eye. Otherwise the viewer would be quite aware that they are looking at a flat 2D image that is just changing as you move the screen around. The reason it looks so good in the videos is because it's tracking a camera(1 eye). Now, if you are far enough from the screen(like across the room looking at a TV), the difference in angles your eye's have to focus on isn't as great so you can almost get away with it(I found it helps if you squint). But for a handheld? The screen is just a few feet from your face. The difference in angles between your eyes is going to be much greater if an object is supposed to move just an inch or 2 "into" the screen.

Do this...Hold up 1 finger from each hand about a foot away from your face and focus on them. Now move 1 finger about 2 inches away and focus on it the whole time. Notice how closer finger looks like it spits in 2? This is the effect that you would get from an autostereoscopy display. With just head tracking, if a virtual object were to move farther the the screen if you focus on it, you would still be focusing on the screen itself, no matter how close or far it is from the screen.

Also, according to this article, some cell phones in Japan already use this technology for 3D displays(have you seen any by any chance?). If it's a current technology already in use for handheld displays then it would only make sense to use the same thing for a handheld game. Ecpecially if they are presenting it as having a 3D display and not tracking tricks having nothing to do with the display.

The 3D phones don't work very well at all, you have to view them from a specific angle for the effect to work, and even then it's unconvincing... If Nintendo uses this technology, they'll have to improve the quality of the screens.

Having played Rittai Kakushi e Attakoreda, I can tell you that IT WORKS! Naturally, you can't hold the DSi too close to your face to play it, but who plays games in that way?

[jb143]

Having played Rittai Kakushi e Attakoreda, I can tell you that IT WORKS!

No, but I have played with TrackIR/Freetrack (and the Wii remote experiment you mentioned above) which is basically the same thing your talking about but for PC's. The thing is, that's not 3D. If the Nintendo 3DS is just using head tracking then they might as well call them all 3D since they can play FPS's, or games using paralax scrolling. And if it's already possible to do it with the camera in the DSi, then why even bother?

If Nintendo uses this technology, they'll have to improve the quality of the screens.

Oh, I'm sure they will. Cel phones are generally designed to be cheap. As you said before. Nintendo isn't likely to mess up in the handheld market.

I guess all we can really do is wait for June.

[rbudrick]

Lolz at folks who say "this is only the illusion of teh 3Ds cuz closing one eye makes it 2D1!!1!"

That works in real life too. Folks with one eye have no depth perception. That's why we have two.

-Rob

[jb143]

Lolz at folks who say "this is only the illusion of teh 3Ds cuz closing one eye makes it 2D1!!1!"

That works in real life too. Folks with one eye have no depth perception. That's why we have two.

-Rob

Not sure if that's directed at me but your description of depth perception just isn't true. People with only one good eye do have depth perception through things such as motion paralax, size differences, or more importantly, the ability to focus on objects at different "depths" letting the brain judge that distance.

It's stereopsis that having only 1 eye will not provide. Binocular vision...which is only one small part of depth perception. It is what gives the actual illusion of 3D though...as in coming out of, or going into the screen.

[rbudrick]

Not sure if that's directed at me but your description of depth perception just isn't true. People with only one good eye do have depth perception through things such as motion paralax, size differences, or more importantly, the ability to focus on objects at different "depths" letting the brain judge that distance.

It's stereopsis that having only 1 eye will not provide. Binocular vision...which is only one small part of depth perception. It is what gives the actual illusion of 3D though...as in coming out of, or going into the screen.

No, no, definitely not directed at you. I've heard other folks making similar remarks elsewhere, not just here. Didn't mean to appear to single you out.

I stand corrected on many points you made, and I was hasty in posting (perhaps I was simply quoting something I've heard my whole life instead of properly researching it, and once having done so, it's a bit of an "oh yeah, duh" moment), but I would argue binocular vision is the most important part of depth perception (not a small part) and with one eye, this is gone, severely limiting the ability to perceive depth. I would also argue depth perception of any kind in the real world is an illusion (a trick of our senses to help us understand our surroundings), making any 3D high-tech sometimes no worse.

-Rob

[scooterb23]

http://kotaku.com/5505112/this-isnt-...-3ds-will-work

Somehow, I still believe the whole 3DS thing is an elaborate hoax...

[jb143]

No, no, definitely not directed at you. I've heard other folks making similar remarks elsewhere, not just here. Didn't mean to appear to single you out.

I stand corrected on many points you made, and I was hasty in posting (perhaps I was simply quoting something I've heard my whole life instead of properly researching it, and once having done so, it's a bit of an "oh yeah, duh" moment), but I would argue binocular vision is the most important part of depth perception (not a small part) and with one eye, this is gone, severely limiting the ability to perceive depth. I would also argue depth perception of any kind in the real world is an illusion (a trick of our senses to help us understand our surroundings), making any 3D high-tech sometimes no worse.

-Rob

Yeah, sorry, I wasn't really sure how to interpret what you said and didn't put a whole lot of thought into it. And yes, I misspoke when I said that stereopsis only "played a small part". What I meant was that it was only one of many possible ways to perceive depth perception. And I completely agree that depth perception of any kind is an illusion.

I honestly have no idea how the 3DS will work since Nintendo has released few details. But in researching it (and similar technologies over the years) it seems like the only thing that makes sense for them to do. Like I already said, all we can do is wait until June.

And I seriously doubt I'll be buying one, (until it's become retro that is). I'm more interested in the technology behind it.

[jcalder8]

Did you know that the word "gullible" is not in the dictionary?

It's on google so I'm still ok

[Icarus Moonsight]

*side-steps the rabbit hole* Depth perception an illusion huh? Not if you take the red pill!

[The 1 2 P]

So I was right when I figured that this Nintendo 3DS announcement was an untimely move considering the DSI XL was about to launch here. And now I know why. So Nintendo basically just wanted to announce this before it got leaked by the Japanese press. I'm guessing they originally wanted to save this announcement for their E3 press conference.

[deltoidsteep]

http://www.siliconera.com/2010/04/02...do-3ds-screen/
This looks interesting..