Penny Arcade on Buying Used

[Griking]

There's a new blog entry and comic about purchasing used games and it's effect on developers. It's a pretty interesting read and I think I agree with them as much as I'm a consumer and like saving money. No matter how you look at it though I think that big changes are in the cards

http://www.penny-arcade.com/2010/8/25/

[Zapf]

A pair of guys who gets a large amount of ad revenue from game companies defending shitty practices of said game companies well I never! This is almost as embarrassing to read as their comic on the ubisoft drm.

[Zapf]

How does digitpress feel about gabe and tycho literally calling it a fucking black market.

[Robocop2]

It is obviously in the publishers best intrest to cater to new purchasers and I can see why at least in some ways they wouldn't care what happens to used consumers. As their primary revenue stream is from new purchases. Though they still stand the chance to sell DLC to the used consumers. I can see offering some sort of incentive to persuade people to buy new. However I can't see how intentionally gimping a game just because its a used game is good business practice. It would be like a car company causing the radio in a car to automatically be rendered useless simply because you bought it used. Equating the used market to piracy is ludicrous though.

[Swamperon]

I can see what they're saying, and ethically I more or less agree with it. But my wallet and ever lowering bank balance argue differently and more effectively.

Also, I imagine they get sent a great deal of games/PR material for free so it probably isn't so much of an issue for them.

Used games shouldn't be banned, or users penalised for buying them. What will happen when people buy the same game 5 years down the line and it's missing content which is of no fault to the buyer who can no longer buy the game new? (Well, not much but you see the point)

Perhaps games shouldn't be so expensive in the first place? Movies on average cost far more than games to make, yet you can see it at the cinema and buy the dvd together for a lot cheaper than buying a game at launch.

[portnoyd]

How does digitpress feel about gabe and tycho literally calling it a fucking black market.

Uh, no. That's not even close to what they say. They said it's hard to go against the publisher's viewpoint, knowing people in the industry. Whether or not they are biased based on ad revenue is a moot point - you'll never know for sure.

Here's the mail I sent into the fray yesterday:

Most used games at Gamestop have stickers on the spine, missing components and general damage. As someone who makes it a point to take care of their games (not just limited to collectors, of course), a used copy can be completely unappealing. New games ensure that I get everything that came with the game and in good condition (a caveat applies to gut copies, which I will turn down). In my situation, the publisher argument is largely irrelevant. I automatically support the publishers because I find used games less than optimal.

As far as saving money, if I'm going to save $10 on a game, I'll wait until I can save $20 or more when the game inevitably drops in price as it gets older. I have many other games to play in the meantime. If I want something new when it comes out, Amazon is a much better choice than Gamestop so the new/used issue never comes into play for me. High profile games also come with a $20 gift card for preordering so the game drops to $30-$40 right off the bat, Amazon does not take any money upfront on preorders, no tax (being in NJ) and free super saver shipping or dirt cheap release day shipping as options? Why would I even set foot in a Gamestop?

I do see THQ's position as one of misdirected hostility. If used games are hurting them that bad, shouldn't they be allocating more copies of their games to stores that don't deal in used product? Don't squeeze the consumer in this situation. Realize you control the supply and consumers have many options to get your games. Assuming I'd buy a used game, I'd rather find Gamestop out of stock and having to go elsewhere than finding my game is not 100% functional as advertised.

[Richter Belmount]

How does digitpress feel about gabe and tycho literally calling it a fucking black market.

I Is Outragedz!

[Zapf]

Uh, no. That's not even close to what they say.

Third panel of the comic

edit: I really like amazon's thing now though (and I guess walmart just started doing it as well, preorder Metroid: other M and you get a 20 dollar eGift Card). I preordered ssf4 i think, got a 10 dollar gift card, used that on smg2 and got a 20 dollar gift card, then I used that on deathsmiles.

[SegaAges]

There are threads started all the time about how much GameStop sucks. If you don't like it or don't support them, don't shop there.

I agree with Portnoyd. There are many great options out there for buying new games (and even buying used games). Pinning it all on GameStop at this point is a little dumb.

[izarate]

How does digitpress feel about gabe and tycho literally calling it a fucking black market.

Where did they say that? Podcast?

[portnoyd]

Third panel of the comic

Did we read the same comic? I don't think we did.

[SegaAges]

They talk about a parallel economy, but I would not go so far as to infer that they meant black market.

[portnoyd]

The comic, in general, seems off focus from the news post. PA really is hit or miss these days.

Off topic, I always thought it was odd that the PA guys never go to their own forums.

[YoshiM]

Third panel of the comic

What I get out of the comic is that THQ and the like are insinuating that the purchasing of used games can be seen as a "black market" to THEM because they aren't seeing a penny in used game sales. The PA crew themselves aren't calling it a "black market", it's just that they are saying if the developers aren't supported-who's gonna make the games you like?

That said, you have to step back and look at the bigger picture beyond the boundaries of your TV screen and realize that THQ and the PA crew have a point. If developers/publishers aren't supported by buying new, then you run the possibility of not getting the games you like. Granted, the system doesn't always work (where awesome games fall through the cracks and never get properly supported) but that's just how it is.

I think what really makes the situation sticky is not the fact that games are being sold used (as that's been going on forever in some form or another) but the fact that a single company rakes in MILLIONS on the sale of used games while trying to sell some of the same games brand new at the same time. Think about it: you got a person who's looking at the latest Madden with a sticker price of $59.99 and then a used copy right next to it for $55.99. If that person has an Edge card, knock another $6 or so off and you're already saving $10-11. It's no wonder that THQ and such are getting peeved and this is probably one of the reasons why there are so many "big specials" with the huge games ($X gift cards, percentages off, etc.).

Personally, I try to support the developers by buying new. If it's something high-profile I'll really like (Demon's Souls, Uncharted 2), I'll pick it up. Otherwise I'll wait for a sale (and before anyone says anything-the developers still get supported, just not with as much cash. Still better than used for them).

Of course, if the game is no longer available "new" (as in regularly produced), then used is the only option.

[Pete Rittwage]

I've logically thought through the situation, and I have to agree that it really is similar to piracy in some aspects, but not completely.

Only GameStop makes any the money off the used game sale, and they publisher is then left to provide the services to a new "customer" that didn't pay them for anything. It could be argued that the original purchaser isn't using the services anymore, so it doesn't cost the publisher any more money to provide services to the "new" owner. It could also be argued either way that the buyer would or would not have bought the game at the new price if the used one wasn't available. GameStop pushes used games, and not at any sort of bargain price- they are maximizing their profits on the situation.

I have always disagreed with renting games, even back when Nintendo was the "evil empire" fighting against it. It isn't really fair that video stores could buy one copy of the game and rent it to 500 people who will then never buy it, and pocket all the profit minus the sale of one copy. In the movie, industry, it's different, you can't go rent a (legitimate) DVD the day a movie comes out, so they're profits are protected for several months from this, but games aren't setup that way.

Maybe game publishers should take the movie theater concept and open "gaming centers" where they charge you to play the new game, but it is unavailable for home purchase for a few months.

That sounds like the old arcade days, so bring it back!

-
Pete

[sidnotcrazy]

If game companies were so upset about the second hand market why not stop selling to Gamestop and other retailers who sell used games.

I think I understand both viewpoints, but if I buy a game, its mine to do with as I please. That is if its a physical copy. Just like if I bought a car, its mine. I can throw a game off a roof if I so choose to do so. That is the way it should
be.

I never worry about buying used games, or buying new games. If I see a game that I want, at the price I can afford, I buy it.

PA are just expressing how they feel about it,

[Ze_ro]

if I buy a game, its mine to do with as I please. That is if its a physical copy. Just like if I bought a car, its mine. I can throw a game off a roof if I so choose to do so. That is the way it should be.

I agree with this. Obviously games aren't cars... but you don't see companies whining about this stuff in other markets like used movie or CD sales.

It amazes me that there's not more concern that digital sales cannot be resold. I would have thought there'd be some kind of law about that, at least in the United States.

--Zero

[jb143]

I think I understand both viewpoints, but if I buy a game, its mine to do with as I please. That is if its a physical copy. Just like if I bought a car, its mine. I can throw a game off a roof if I so choose to do so. That is the way it should be

True to a point. You can't make and sell copies of the game. The code itself is licensed. You own a license that limits what you can do with it. Some software licenses you can't legaly transfer to other people. Most high end buisness software is like this and the downloadable game market is too. Console games aparently aren't. The used car market works because everyone knows that a new car severely depreciates in value as soon as it's driven off the lot. Not so with games.

I can see both sides as well, but I rarely buy anything for new systems as it is. Most of my Wii games came from thrift stores or garage sales. I guess they run black markets as well

[brykasch]

Points-

1. Gamestop gets heaped on this wayyyy to fucking much, ebay is NEVER mentioned in these diatribes by company heads. Ebay/Craigslist do just as much.

2. If the companies have so much of an issue with it why do they continue to have special promotions with gamestop for codes etc with pre-ordering?

3. I think if companies focused on making quality titles that couldn't be beat in 12-15 hours it wouldn't be as much of an issue as well. Learn to release games at better times instead of dumping everything in the fall/christmas selling period.

4. I don't buy a ton used I wait for price drops to hit 20 dollar range usually, but you take away used game sales people will jstu wait for price drops, or use game rental services.

5. You don't see car companies railing against used car sales

6. Someone paid for the game already once, there is no reason they deserve a second slice of compensation, whats next they hit up the garage sales too?

[Griking]

Here was my response;

I understand that buying new will help a developer and buying used will not but it's sometimes hard to opt for the new copy of a game that's two years old over the used copy that's $20 less. That's being said I'm much more likely to purchase the new copy when the title is still new and Gamestop charges only $5 less for the used version. Ultimately I always WANT to buy new but we're all on budgets and games cost so much nowadays. I think that the gaming industry as a whole needs to respond to the used game issue rather than a few individual companies. A also believe that there needs to be compromises. For me to agree to never purchase used again here are my terms;

* A new copy of a game should never be more than $39.99, $49.99 if it's a hot anticipated title. Yes I know that you'll make less per game but the unavailability of used copies means that you'll most likely sell many more copies of the game which will more than make up for the price reduction.

* Follow Steam's lead and drop prices a considerable amount after the game's been out for a while and make them all available for download.

* Promise to keep multiplayer servers up for a pre-announced amount of time. Why should I purchase new over used when I won't be able to play online anyways?

* Provide an easy way for me to transfer my purchased games over to a new console should my old one break or if I upgrade to a newer better model.

If the game companies agree to these terms then I won't have a problem with them tying games to specific consoles or requiring one use codes for in game features such as multi play.