TG16/PCE/Duo Composite, S-Video, Component Comparison shots
So I modded a couple of units with S-Video using a CXA1645 to convert the RGB into S-Video and a CVS287 to convert RGB to Component. I noticed a big difference in clarity and colors. It looks like the original composite signal is washed out on the TG16/PCE/Duo and much better with the CXA1645. I'm using a 27" JVC CRT SDTV.
TG16/PCE/DUO Composite
Composite out from CXA1645
S-Video out from CXA1645
Component out from CVS287
Requested Component Shots
Last edited by electrochip; 01-29-2011 at 10:18 AM.
Nicely done. Yeah, pretty significant upgrade on each of the different signals. S-video really looks great as-is, but colors look a little "truer" to my eyes on the component screenshot. However, the component looks a little bit hotter, like slightly washed-out, but maybe that's just how it looks to me. I'd be elated with either. Thanks for posting!
it's mostly lack of camera technique. I point, pray and shoot and see if it comes out well. The Component is a bit sharper with better color definition, but it's not a big jump as composite to s-video. Either is vastly superior to the composite signal.
Last edited by electrochip; 12-12-2010 at 07:08 PM.
Definitely. I made an RGB cable for my Genesis a while back and I must say, it's one of those things that you cannot fully appreciate until you see it in person. I mean, yes, I've used emulators, but seeing such a remarkably sharp image coming from the actual console is really something. It's sorta like a Game Genie too: it makes you want to go back and play your old games again; in this case, just to see how wonderful they can look.Originally Posted by electrochip
S-video on my SNES looks so good, I'm not sure I can be bothered to add RGB, but if I was gonna upgrade the output on a TG-16 (don't have a Duo), or my Neo Geo, I'd certainly go for RGB or component.
Again, thanks for sharing.
a couple more pics by request.
TG16/PCE/DUO Composite
Composite out from CXA1645
S-Video out from CXA1645
Component out from CVS287
The Doraemon pics really show off the component video. You can see edge transitions of close colors better than in S-video (which is already pretty good in that pic). Hell, that component pic looks better than some RGB pics I've seen of systems connected to PAL RGB via scart. Nice job
Something I wanted to point out about the composite output of the original system. It's not done by some converter chip. It's internal to the VCE (which has the palette ram and builds the complete picture as well as the RGB out), not some third party encoder. There's also a RGB to YUV map in the chip itself (a small look up rom). The patent for the VCE shows the first three and last three entries of the YUV conversion table(green has a different ramp/adjust than B and R). So that's why there's a difference between the external composite encoder and the original composite output of the PCE/TG system. If anything, the replacement encoder is 'incorrect' as far as saturation and RGB-to-YIQ goes. But hell, it looks nice
Also somewhat related, but the VCE doesn't output composite per se. It actually already outputs component video (just not the same format). The three component signals are combined externally to form composite. You can make s-video from this video output if you wanted (no encoder chip needed). You could probably make a component output converter from the three lines too, but I haven't really looked into this (and what's needed). They output lines appear to be pretty high res too (I haven't traced the whole circuit, but they are probably passed through a filter before output).
Tom: That third elephant is so elusive, ya know.
NFG: Elephants are so unpredictable.
Tom: Especially in groups of three.
NFG: Two pairs of three, no less.
How hard was the mod to do? I'd settle for just plain S-Video, no need for component.
Tempest
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All Your Prototypes Are Belong To Us!
@tomaitheous
I didn't know all that about the VCE, would be nice to know how to pull s-video from it properly.
@Tempest
You need to build an RGB to NTSC encoder or buy one and tap the RGB from the Hu6260. I can do the region and video mods, if anyone is interested send me a pm.
electrochip, do you have a flash card or are able to play CD-Rs?
Can you take a pic of this on you setup? http://www.pcedev.net/pics/dither/pce/497.png
It's from Might and Magic 3 at the very-very beginning of the game (right where you spawn when you start the game, a room off to the side). Forgotten Worlds runs mid res too, so that's a good test (all your pics are of low res PCE stuff). Also what about some pics of some PCE high res modes? Like the 512 pixel mode.
Tom: That third elephant is so elusive, ya know.
NFG: Elephants are so unpredictable.
Tom: Especially in groups of three.
NFG: Two pairs of three, no less.
I have a flash card and right now the S-Vid and composite mod are on a Duo-R, I've compared it to a TG16 and PCE, they all output the same. My Duo-RX has the component mod. Send me a list of games and I can try them out.
it's hard to get a good picture of a CRT, updated with some MM3 pics.
They're coming out pretty good, though. Thanks for the update. They look great. It can apparently handle the higher res mode too (for composite out). I was initially surprised that the original PC-Engine composite output has a very high resolution Y channel. Higher than the composite specification (I guess it doesn't hurt). I used this:it's hard to get a good picture of a CRT
http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/c...creations.html
To test out the 512 pixel mode. It was pixel perfect (for the Y data) for that mode (even B&W pixel was represented, not accumulation or blurring). Definitely the most incredible thing I've ever seen for a composite output chip from 1987. In the test proggy, you can press select to turn on/off h-filter (dot crawl). Though this shouldn't have any effect on the external video converter you've modded your system with.
Tom: That third elephant is so elusive, ya know.
NFG: Elephants are so unpredictable.
Tom: Especially in groups of three.
NFG: Two pairs of three, no less.
My first two Jp DUO consoles had Composite out with the same color banding issues of my '89 model Genesis 1. It was a few years ago that I traded the second DUO for a DUO/R from a nice fellow who region modified the DUO/R for me. I'd swear he did something to the Composite output as well, as it looks as sharp as SNES S-Video does no joke! Let's see if I have some video captures handy.
Composite Shot
Emulation Shot
Composite Shot
Emulation Shot
Attract Mode DIVX Video
More here.
sheath: You still have your Duo? If so, can you burn the screen test demo from here:
http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/c...creations.html
And post a capture of the mid and high res mode? My capture card applies a low pass filter for any composite input, making it blurry than the real input is. I'm curious if any of your capture cards do this too. I haven't tested s-video (just feeding it the composite signal on Y, to test the luma channel resolution). But I have a feeling that I'll get different results.
Tom: That third elephant is so elusive, ya know.
NFG: Elephants are so unpredictable.
Tom: Especially in groups of three.
NFG: Two pairs of three, no less.
Also:
Both are capture shots from my capture card (notice the low pass filter on the floor line bar dithering appearing as solid). The top on is a scanline simulation post process I added to the capture shot, to make it look more like the real display (SD set or RGB monitor, not HD frame buffer display).
Here's the scanline mask: http://pcedev.net/pics/capture/scanl...k_scanline.psd
In Photoshop, apply this as a layer over the original image layer. Use the magic select tool to select just the blue pixels. Disable the layer, make a copy of the original image layer, have the focus/action applied to this layer - then use the selection mask made from the blue line layer to cut out the lines in this duplicate image layer. Now apply a brightness/contrast adjust on the modified image layer (make it darker). I -70 brightness -5 contrast seems to work pretty good. On the original layer, use the brightness/contrast adjust to make the image slightly brighter (to compensate for the 'scanlines' making it darker). I used a value of +12/+12 for brightness/contrast. You can replicate this in After Effects and Avisynth too, for video.
Last edited by tomaitheous; 12-17-2010 at 10:10 AM.
Tom: That third elephant is so elusive, ya know.
NFG: Elephants are so unpredictable.
Tom: Especially in groups of three.
NFG: Two pairs of three, no less.
Oh I see, are you just overlaying this PSD over the screenshots? I'm using CS3, which allows for all kinds of layer effects and translucency.
I was trying to avoid Avisynth, it frustrates me every time I try to use it even though it really should be easier than just using Virtualdub. I have all of my cropping and logo overlays saved for various console ouputs in Virtualdub. Eh, but I am having trouble getting my Windows 7 machine to encode to Divx, so I need to work with Avisynth anyway.
I'll burn the screentest disk and try to post screenshots soon. Going on a road trip today so it might be later this weekend. I killed the previous two DUOs I had by testing a Dracula X CDR on them, I take it this is just a small ROM that loads?
Last edited by sheath; 12-17-2010 at 11:21 AM.
Only so I can use it as a mask itself. I disable/remove the layer once I get a mask selection from it. And you need two layers of the original image. One to cut with the mask. The cut one is darker (which sits on top). The normal one is made a little bit lighter. I can post a PSD of the layers if you like.
Yup. It's a tiny little rom (well, ram) that loads at boot. Shouldn't be taxing on your system at all.I'll burn the screentest disk and try to post screenshots soon. Going on a road trip today so it might be later this weekend. I killed the previous two DUOs I had by testing a Dracula X CDR on them, I take it this is just a small ROM that loads?
Edit: Probably should create a new thread for this stuff.
Tom: That third elephant is so elusive, ya know.
NFG: Elephants are so unpredictable.
Tom: Especially in groups of three.
NFG: Two pairs of three, no less.
Yeah, I wouldn't mind that PSD, I think it is important that we use the exact same settings. Avisynth has an add scan lines filter, I haven't discovered if it does 25% yet.
Having never used this screentest thingy, it might be helpful if you told me exactly what you'd like me to sample test wise. I'll probably video capture the whole thing and then use FRAPS for screenshots later. My color count tests showed zero variance between the MPEG-2 screen captures and the Avermedia's screenshots, so I think it's the same quality either way.
Merry Christmas everyone!
As long as people are adding their own screenshots to this page, I'll add some of mine. I had been taking some captures for a week or two, and now the results are on my RGB page:
http://www.chrismcovell.com/gotRGB/rgb_compare.html
http://www.chrismcovell.com/gotRGB/rgb_compare2.html
Merry Christmas!
I am actually very keen on this kind of discussion and the comparisons on your page. If somebody with a little more cache around here wants to start a thread comparing output qualities (and hopefully establishing a standard for good captures for various outputs) I am all for it.
I noticed that particularly with your Megadrive shots that the reds turned yellow or orange in most of the shots. I have found with several capture cards that this is caused not by the composite output but the deinterlacing method used. Basically the more frames/lines are lost in the deinterlacing process, the more reds change is all I have noticed so far.
Here is a some shot of Altered Beast I took through the 32X's composite (s-video converted) today with my brand spanking new HVR 1600:
The same shot from your Megadrive page:
Last edited by sheath; 12-24-2010 at 09:50 PM.
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