One LCD HDTV to rule them all?

[RCM]

Have you actually tested it - some people just don't notice a lag of a few frames.

My sentiments exactly, but ignorance is bliss! I just went from a CRT HDTV to Plasma and didn't notice any lag whatsoever. But then again, I'm not good enough at Third Strike to notice...

[LaughingMAN.S9]

Another upscaler from them with 1080p scaling and hdmi out. and slightly cheaper (under 300 hopefully)

theyre marketing this one towards the western market supposedly and xrgb4 is supposedly also in the works, being that the frame meister isnt a true successor im hoping they're letting these go for 200 or under


200 is the most i'd be willing pay and probably still end up backing out once u factor in all the scart and d terminal cables i'd have to buy

[Darko]

Have you actually tested it - some people just don't notice a lag of a few frames.

I've played multiple systems through the receiver and played the same systems directly through the TV and have never noticed any difference. I have also played through older receivers which did have a slight, yet noticeable amount of lag.

Systems I've played through my current receiver:

NES
SNES
Genesis
PS2
PS3
360

I don't keep the older-gen systems hooked up through the receiver as I have a tube set for those, but I have hooked them up to see how they look.

If my memory serves me correctly I played these older games through the receiver:

Super C
Mario 3
Mario World
Contra III
UN Squadron
Sonic 3

I've also sat another TV (similar model) next to mine and played some 360 games with a friend numerous times. My 360 was running through the receiver, his was not. I'll admit that I wasn't exactly examining the setup for frame rate variations but I've been on both in the same session and never noticed any difference.

So no, I haven't done any type of professional frame rate testing but if you can't actually see/feel a difference without that, does it actually matter?

[Darkman2K5]

Hey Darko, what receiver are you using? I've got an ONKYO TX-NR708, the upscaling on it is really good, and like you I've never noticed any lag on any of my systems. Granted, I've only got modern systems hooked up to that one, but I've got my retro systems hooked into an older sony receiver going to a CRT, and I have no input lag on that setup.

[StealthLurker]

For playing on an LCD/Plasma set with SD sources... and if you really care about picture quality (PQ) and response lag...

Forget a receiver for transcoding. The PQ and or lag will be unsatisfactory (if you're picky like me). You'll probably just get a Faroudja scaler chip (crap) in a "cheap" receiver. A higher end receiver ($2k) might get you a silicon optics realta chip (pretty good... found in old Toshiba XA2 high-end/premium HD-DVD players, but still not all that great). I've had an XRGB2+ for years. Works great and looks great on CRT PC monitors. Not so much on an LCD/Plasma. I've tried it on several 5 different HDTV sets around the house. The instability of signal bothers me. The XRGB3 was better, but still not quite there for me.

In my opinion, the best, most stable picture with a plethora of PQ/scaling customization options and inputs is a dedicated video processor. The DVDO Edge is probably the best bang for your buck option right now. The deinterlacing and scaling is very, very nice. The only thing you won't get is a fake scanline option (XRGBs have this). You can pick up a little SLG later for the fake scanlines.

I've gone through a pile of gadgets for this stuff. HDBox pro... crap. Loads of other solutions on the "cheap"... you get what you pay for. Right now I'm using an iScan HD, DVDO VP30+ABT, DVDO VP50 and a DVDO Edge on different sets around the house. If you don't want to shell out a lot of cash for a new system ($600/700 to $1000+), check out ebay or amazon for deals on used or refurb systems (few hundred bucks).

At the end of the day though, no matter how much money you dump in... it will never look as good as a CRT SDTV or a CRT in RGB (Sony PVM, NECXM, etc etc).


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[RCM]

I've heard good things about the DVDO Edge, but am under the impression it produces more lag than XRGB 2+/3. Did you experience anything out of the ordinary?

[StealthLurker]

I've heard good things about the DVDO Edge, but am under the impression it produces more lag than XRGB 2+/3. Did you experience anything out of the ordinary?

In terms of XRGB, I'm going to consider the 2+ separate from the 3. The XRGB3 was more of a move towards "HD" type displays (although not quite totally there). The XRGB3 can output a "lag-less" *480p* signal, but then it's up to your HDTV's internal scaler to do the final upscaling. This is going to vary wildly among the different TV models and manufacturers. You can set it to whatever "game mode" your tv has, but in most of the HDTVs I've seen... game mode isn't all that great. Granted scaling isn't as much overhead compared to de-interlacing.

In addition, the lag-less mode of the XRGB3 has stability issues with certain HDTVs (all of mine). I find it to be quite annoying (jittery image and lines).

Now the DVDO Edge in game mode is only roughly 6ms lag (depends on source), produces a stable picture and overall picture quality is superior (imho). It also works better for other things besides gaming (legacy SD DVD players, laserdisc, VHS, cable boxes, etc etc). "Better" in the sense it's designed to handle film modes as well, options geared to films/tv and has inputs more in-line with western sources (composite, s-video, etc). In this day and age, the number of HDMI devices has gone up too. The edge has quite a few HDMI inputs which is handy. You can do a signal pass thru with your ps3/360 as well. Keeps it all tidy with everything routed through the video proc and a single out to your HDTV.

Just FYI, my "unofficial", casual testing platform I usually hit up first is Street Fighter 3: Third Strike. It's a very casual test for complex combo execution. To be more precise, there are a couple of tests out there that actually have counters to measure lag. Exactly how precise some of these test programs is, can be debatable depending on who you talk to however. It can also help to test a shooter/shmup that truly outputs 240p.



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[kedawa]

I always test for lag on SD video by outputting to two separate displays side by side, usually my 1084s and an LCD, and playing fast action game. Games with precise timers, like the training modes of certain fighting games, or lots of cycling or strobe animations, make it pretty easy to see the lag. If I had a good high speed camera, I could make a real measurement.

[StealthLurker]

I always test for lag on SD video by outputting to two separate displays side by side, usually my 1084s and an LCD, and playing fast action game. Games with precise timers, like the training modes of certain fighting games, or lots of cycling or strobe animations, make it pretty easy to see the lag. If I had a good high speed camera, I could make a real measurement.

I've actually got a permanent setup like this in one of the my rooms. The older consoles are branched to a Sony PVM CRT and to an Audio Authority Powered Component Distribution amp. The Audio Authority feeds to my video processor and outputs to 2 HD screens (a 46" lcd HDTV and a 28" PC monitor). It's interesting to see differences, but some aspects of the chain can introduce some lag I'm sure. I didn't do this spread out setup for gaming (just sometimes), mostly for Karaoke lol.

There are quite a few videos of lag tests of a split signal to CRT and HDTV using timers to get a good approximation of drift in milliseconds. Once again, these are debatable on who you talk to. I think these measures are ok for a rough baseline, but processing time can also depend on what "images" are being sent by the source as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiXsM...eature=related


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[SegaAges]

I have a Toshiba 100 inch 1080i projector, model TDP-E10 that I got brand new from Amazon for $350. It has not failed me yet and has vga, hdmi, vga, rca (apparently I call this something different than most people, but yellow/red/white), s-video. There is one or 2 others, but I am too lazy to go check.

Set the brightness from 50-45 and you get yourself around 3000 hours lamptime.

That model sucks to find new now, but you can get its older brother, the TDP-E20 pretty easily for around $500 new if you shop around. The only difference I know of between these two models is that one has a DVD player. I would not suggest using the dvd player though since the in projector speakers are horrible (cranked all the way up, you can still barely hear anything).

Why go small when you can go massive for dirt cheap?

Get a cheap pc for $200 or something that supports 7.1 surround, get a set of Creative Inspire 7.1 speakers (I got my set for $100 new from Amazon), and feed the sound through your pc and you are set.

If you want to push it further, get a cheap tv card that comes with a WMC remote and you are set even more.

If you shop around, you could get the entire setup for under $1000 and I promise you, it is worth it. Mine runs everything. I was told that some projectors have trouble with Genesis, but this one plays classic and new all just fine.

[skaar]

http://reviews.costco.com/2070/11525...ws/reviews.htm

I just picked one of those up for the office. Been great.

[Darko]

Hey Darko, what receiver are you using? I've got an ONKYO TX-NR708, the upscaling on it is really good, and like you I've never noticed any lag on any of my systems. Granted, I've only got modern systems hooked up to that one, but I've got my retro systems hooked into an older sony receiver going to a CRT, and I have no input lag on that setup.

I have the 606.