First Ebay now GameStop

[Kaboomer]

I think I am masochistic but hey, all in the name for making things better. Read on. . .
http://gamasutra.com/view/news/36532...hers_A_Cut.php

[Tupin]

This would do really, really well if you could get companies to include the envelopes in the cases. Just giving them out to people who ask would work, but only if you have better trade in prices than usual.

Still, I don't know if developers would take the risk, companies like Gamestop seem like the kind that would say, "You support another way of trading in games? Fine, then we won't carry your games new."

I support it though, even though I don't trade in games I wouldn't mind buying a few from a non-Gamestop source.

[T2KFreeker]

I like the idea, nut only if I get the actual cases and instructions for the games. That's one of the big things (Among quite a few other things) I HATE about Game Stop. I like the case and instructions.

[joshnickerson]

Interesting idea... but yeah, if the case and instructions are included, it could take off.

Slightly off topic, I was wondering where Frank Cifaldi went after he vanished from 1up. Glad to see he landed at another site.

[Dangerboy]

Here's the problem with this scenario: How much would the companies demand from the sales? With companies like EA charging $5 to 10 to get online in multi-player, how much are you willing to drop sales prices to meet that angle from the consumer, and then please the company. Who pays the shipping on the two and from of the envelope?

2nd, ho would the money-to-the-publisher's be rationed out? Would EA require the same $10 from your used Madden 06 360 that they could get from the Madden 2012, etc?

Also, do they get money from your purchase of the game AND your selling of it?

The possibility is there, and it sounds like a very great idea, but there's too much room for political / corporate scheming for my taste.

[APE992]

Publishers don't begin to deserve a cut of secondary sales. Fuck them in their stupid asses.

I cannot be more blunt about it.

[allyourblood]

Publishers don't begin to deserve a cut of secondary sales.

It has the potential to set a bad precedent, doesn't it?

After I buy a brand new car, the manufacturer shouldn't get a cut when I sell it to someone else. And if I do sell it, they shouldn't be allowed to charge the next owner for interacting with other motorists on the same roads.

There exists a nasty little "rumor" these days, that says if we don't all buy new games or pay a small fee for used games, that developers and publishers won't be able to afford the costs associated with new game development, or that somehow future games will suffer as a result. I think this is completely bogus; for some time, devs and pubs were waving this flag at every interview and opportunity. Now, they've saturated the industry so completely with this crap, that we're seeing gamers themselves crying it from the rooftops.

So, while it might sound like an interesting business opportunity, or a way to carve off some of Gamestop's enormous helping of pie, as a consumer, I'd rather it not take place. I already don't like what's happening with DLC and the $10 tax as it is -- the last thing I want is to further cement the absurd idea that these people should get paid a second time for something that's already been purchased once!

[Dangerboy]

So, while it might sound like an interesting business opportunity, or a way to carve off some of Gamestop's enormous helping of pie, as a consumer, I'd rather it not take place

There in lies the issue to - this isn't about *GameStop* - it's about *the Gamer*. GS, PNT, BB etc are all middle men. If you want to stop GS and BB used sales, then eBay needs to shut down all sales, garage sales need to be policed, etc.

You also need to shut down new game sales - because you know there are people just turning and flipping those for profit to others (CEs, LEs, Slabbed, Etc) - which means companies are losing sales on New Games, too.

[Baloo]

Publishers don't begin to deserve a cut of secondary sales. Fuck them in their stupid asses.

I cannot be more blunt about it.

I've got to agree with this. When something is bought once, how can you demand to get profit from it again? That's bullshit. So if companies are supposed to get profit from used game sales, who's to say other companies aren't supposed to get profit from other used sales? (Comic books, records, cars, arcade machines, bikes, televisions, computers, electronics, musical instruments)

These game companies need to stop talking out of their ass, used sales will never go away. If you try to shut down gamestop, people will simply go to eBay or Amazon or Craigslist.

[frogofdeath]

After I buy a brand new car, the manufacturer shouldn't get a cut when I sell it to someone else. And if I do sell it, they shouldn't be allowed to charge the next owner for interacting with other motorists on the same roads

I was just thinking of the same basic car scenario yesterday! Seems like some game companies want to make consumers lease their games for a set number of miles rather than purchase them outright. The whole thing reeks of bad business, but not sure the average consumer would boycott the companies that want to partake in these practices. Guessing most of them don't even know or even care for that matter.

[Icarus Moonsight]

I was just thinking of the same basic car scenario yesterday! Seems like some game companies want to make consumers lease their games for a set number of miles rather than purchase them outright. The whole thing reeks of bad business, but not sure the average consumer would boycott the companies that want to partake in these practices. Guessing most of them don't even know or even care for that matter.

True. It's hilarious. Make customers? Customers make a business, you idiots. Their job is to gauge and predict what their customers want, and be adaptive and responsive. Not by what they say, but how they act through the market. So, when they make $60 games with umpteen-million dollar budgets and take a loss, it has to be someone else's fault this happened right? Send them a bottle of milk and a blankee, not money.

[chrisbid]

first use doctrine - game companies have NO LEGAL RIGHT to profit from 2nd hand game sales

funny how much they (rightfully) scream about copyright infringement, then turn around and scream back at customers legally applying their rights.

[Opti]

If you dont like the way it sounds then think of it not as the publishers demanding money but someone starting a new business and to market their business they are paying the publishers. The publishers get market info and money and in return the company gets about the best marketing there is, envelopes in new gam boxes.

[allyourblood]

If you dont like the way it sounds then think of it not as the publishers demanding money but someone starting a new business and to market their business they are paying the publishers. The publishers get market info and money and in return the company gets about the best marketing there is, envelopes in new gam boxes.

I don't think anyone cares much how it sounds; rather, folks are concerned about what it means for the industry as a whole. Regardless of what the new business' intentions are, publishers are going to see this as one thing, and one thing only: money that they feel they've been "entitled to all along".

Once they start getting paid for used sales, the flood gates are going to burst wide open, and we'll start seeing all sorts of absurd new money-grubbing tactics. Console titles that require an internet connection in order to play retail games certainly may become a reality in just a few short years. Perhaps instead of selling games outright, we could pay for finite software licenses that expire in xxx number of months/years?

No, thank you.

[ianoid]

UP!

Go Mike! I love to see another idea come out of the MK Think Tank!

As far as companies complaining about the online experience going to people who bought their game used, it just makes no sense. It's as though every game out there WASN'T at one time bought brand new. And it's as though they are assuming those people are going to stop playing that game, maybe because the game is SHITTY?

So when someone passes on that disc to another gamer to play, since when does that change the actual number of games sold and needing support, users and actual discs out there? It doesn't. EA sells 10mil copies of COD:BLOPS and should be expecting to support 10mil users. I just don't understand the complaint? Does their profit model not include enough profit?

It's just greed, I tells you.

But I still understand that making these massive games takes cash. And I'm not going to say that Gamestop deserves it more than the game companies, revenue hungry publicly traded companies that they both are. But at least if the game company gets more money there is a chance it will get put back into our beloved games.

[Bojay1997]

I guess I don't understand how the percentage to the publisher benefits consumers in any way. Like the airline industry and every other company, once they get that additional revenue stream, prices won't come down for new games and they won't plow it back into nichier titles, they will simply take the money and pay it out to share holders and investors or sit on the cash.

If you think the publishers will somehow give you a price break on games as a result of this, think again. Aside from pissing off every other company that sells their games, which they won't risk for a small start-up, there is a lot of case law left over from the home video rental days that companies can use to enjoin you and the publishers from engaging in this type of price manipulation based on a revenue share.

As far as the rest of the plan, paying consumers more for used games sounds good, as long as you have the capital to actually build up a good stock of inventory and from the collector's perspective, it would be nice if a used reseller actually sold really nice looking games complete with case, manual, etc...I'm not sure how that squares with your pre-paid envelopes which seem destined for damage, but assuming you sold collector grade used games, you might actually have a solid market.

[Kaboomer]

Part of the reason we want to rebate publishers is to get their support to help us quickly penetrate the market. Look at it as marketing capital. We believe we will eventually get the publishers to publicly support us, whether on their consumer websites, advertising and marketing campaings or even in or on retail packaging. "Trade your games into PostalGamer.com and help the industry!".

We have gone back and forth about, "Do we sell new games or not?", thinking if we sell new games we might be causing an issue between the publishers and their bread-and-butter retailers. Or, do we work with retailers and let gamers utilize their PostalGamer store credit at Walmart, Target, Best Buy or even Game Stop? Instant gratification is back! We have discussed with publishers inserting our envelopes into new retail game cases, and depending on which publishers we are talking with some feel that it will step on the feet of their new game retailers and others don't care. We do feel having new games available will incent used game trade-ins. So we may just have a small allocation of new games to bring in blasts of used games. But not enough new games where the large retailers would see any significant downturn in new game business. What we really want is GameStops $2Billion used game business. We don't really want to affect any large retail selling of new games.

Publishers are seeing other retailers want to get into the used game market, but none are talking about rebating publishers. The bottom line is we think the only way to take on GameStop is to have the backing of the publishers. It also helps from a funding standpoint. If we have the support of EA, Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, et al you can see how it will be much easier to go out and get significant funding for our model.

We will be utilzing our pre-addressed, postage paid mailers and will distribute them to gamers in various ways, from the possibility of being packed in to retail cases, to distributing them in a partnering magazine (which we are now after, discussing things with EGM and GamePro), to the obvious order form on our homepage. Also, all orders shipping out of PostalGamer will include a return, postage paid envelope, so when and if a gamer wants to trade in that game, he has an envelope stored away to do it. We are creating a captured secondary market.

And don't underestimate the value of used game sales data we will be giving to partnering publishers for free! According to many publishers we have spoken with, this data is just as important than the direct revenue from our program. We are getting some serious publisher interest and that is exciting. I think within 30 days you will start hearing of publishers getting on board.

We have added a few more details to our model over on http://www.PostalGamer.com.

[Kaboomer]

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@ Opti If you dont like the way it sounds then think of it not as the publishers demanding money but someone starting a new business and to market their business they are paying the publishers. The publishers get market info and money and in return the company gets about the best marketing there is, envelopes in new gam boxes.

DING DING DING! We have a winner

[ianoid]

@Kaboomer Your longetivity will depend strictly upon controlling costs. Between capital outlay for advertising and envelopes, and controlling expenses for used games, you will sink or swin. The largest ongoing non-fixed expense being the price you pay for used games. From Gamestop to the mom 'n pop (like Videogames Etc), you have to be extremely careful about what you pay because you can end up with a back stock of valueless unsellable games if you don't run this with tight controls. As far as new games, why own anything? Can't you drop ship just about anything these days?

@Bojay I don't think collectors are ever the target market for mainstream used game sales. Collectors and retrogamers remain a niche market, albeit a large niche market. Most Gamestop patrons and renters are games who are not interested in quality product, they are interested in gaming experiences.

[Bojay1997]

@Kaboomer Your longetivity will depend strictly upon controlling costs. Between capital outlay for advertising and envelopes, and controlling expenses for used games, you will sink or swin. The largest ongoing non-fixed expense being the price you pay for used games. From Gamestop to the mom 'n pop (like Videogames Etc), you have to be extremely careful about what you pay because you can end up with a back stock of valueless unsellable games if you don't run this with tight controls. As far as new games, why own anything? Can't you drop ship just about anything these days?

@Bojay I don't think collectors are ever the target market for mainstream used game sales. Collectors and retrogamers remain a niche market, albeit a large niche market. Most Gamestop patrons and renters are games who are not interested in quality product, they are interested in gaming experiences.

I agree with you, but the mainstream Gamestop patrons and renters are already well covered by Gamestop, Best Buy, Amazon, Gamefly, Toys R Us, Target and dozens of smaller chains and even local mom and pop shops. If you aren't offering a better quality product than those existing large retailers or going after a niche they ignore for whatever reason, you have zero chance of success.

I personally don't buy used current games, but I have stood in enough Gamestops on a Saturday afternoon to have a good understanding of how the model works. It's all about offering incentives to trade-in and pre-order and frankly, instant gratification. I've seen plenty of kids take $1-$2 for a game simply because they only have so much allowance and they want to get something right now. Having to mail games in and not actually being able to walk out of a local store with something in return is going to be of zero interest to 99.99% of the people who do game trades. Offering a little more money is only going to be of interest to flippers (i.e. people who buy games on clearance and trade them in for profit) and only if the payment is in cash or something that can be put into Amazon, Gamestop, etc...credit so they can actually buy new games that they want. Those customers provide zero profitability for a used game reseller and if not carefully monitored, will leave them with massive quantities of worthless games.

The combination of having to pay for postage both ways, paying a percentage to publishers and having to compete with local stores that are far more convenient, with massive selections and the ability to undercut on price for as long as it takes to drive this start-up out of business is a recipe for bankruptcy. Frankly, finding a very specific niche with which to build a small business which can eventually grow is the only way for this to work and while plenty of businesses have taken on the big guy and won, they have done so by finding the ignored niche or a significant edge that the bigger competitor simply won't or can't match and building from there.