Retro forum taboos: Why roms and not reproductions and pirate carts?

[treismac]

Is there a legal reason? I know from Nintendo of America's website that they mention specifically their stand against roms in all cases, but there is no mention (that I recall) of reproductions nor pirate carts. While I understand that obtaining roms is much easier than reproductions or pirate carts, the sale of reproductions and pirate carts actually produces money for the manufacturer. (Yeah, I suppose advertising brings in $ for the rom sites, too). I don't see why rom distribution is illegal or at least frowned upon but pirates and reproductions are kosher. What are your thoughts? Why the double standard?

Also, what the hell is the difference between pirate carts and reproductions, anyway? Is it the quality, amount of games, reliability of advertised game(s) actually being in the cart, geographic origin, or that it is for the Famicom rather than the NES?

[Clownzilla]

Reproductions are usually produced from games that were not released or are extremly rare (ie: Nintendo competition carts). Although probably illegal there would currently be no logical reason for the parent companies to go after the reproduction makers. However, if these companie would ever decide to release the games themselves (ie: Nintendo competiton download on Wii) then I can see some legal challenges. Pirate carts essentially have bootlegged roms for the software so I'm sure that Nintendo would not be happy with those alongside pure software roms.

[BeaglePuss]

I don't see why rom distribution is illegal or at least frowned upon but pirates and reproductions are kosher. What are your thoughts? Why the double standard?

It depends on the site/forum. Some sites like DP, NA, and AA appear indifferent to reproductions. Other sites like Sega-16 outright forbid the sale of reproductions.

Also, what the hell is the difference between pirate carts and reproductions, anyway?

What's the difference between pirate and reproduction? Nothing. They're the exact same thing.

I always use the term pirate to describe something made during the lifespan of the system by a foreign manufacturer, and I use the term reproduction to describe newly produced titles for games that were either unavailable domestically or a prototype. With that said, what I call them really doesn't make a difference, they're both grey-market items that should be looked at in the same light.

[Panzerfuzion]

I always thought the whole repro thing was crazy myself, I think the people that sell old repro's get away with it because the games are in some cases 20 years old and the company's simply don't care. I believe the company's that were involved with said game could do something about repro's if they wanted to they simply just don't care. But who knows in the future if sopa passes in some form.

I personally have issues with it just for the hypocrisy of the entire hobby, what if I wanted to make a repro of an original nes box I could say its a repro when I sell it but don't decide to mark the box as such then the person I sell it to turns around and sells it as the real thing. And then you have the whole sealed side of the hobby, who's to stop some random person starting there own grading company which I believe someone on eBay VGA quality I think.

Then there is the whole resaling part of the hobby, forums are very shady who's a reseller and who's a collector. Even people who say they are in it for the collecting tend to seem to be more about the money. Then you have the whole eBay back dooring thing.

I think people as a whole take collecting old games waaaaay to serious just buy what you like and try not to worry about what other people are doing if some guy is resaling something to high on eBay then don't buy it if someone is asking to much for something on CL then move on. But people have full fledged panic attacks over what other people do and spend most of there time bitching about it. So if no one is saying shit about selling repro's then good for the guy making money on it. Unless you are actually stealing from someone else I wouldn't take much else to serious. It's not like this is some highly regulated nationality known hobby. It's just a bunch of guys buying and selling old video games.

[Kitsune Sniper]

I don't like people making repros of freely available, fan-made video game translations.

But that's another rant...

[Panzerfuzion]

I don't like people making repros of freely available, fan-made video game translations.

But that's another rant...

Yea that's another big one, some people think stuff is cool some people think stuff is wrong. I guess my one issue with repros over other things is in a sense it kind of is stealing because you're making money off someone elses work. I definitely don't have much respect for people that do the whole repro thing but unless the company's that had to do with the games step up it's not really my right to bitch about it.

[Parodius Duh!]

Theres a big difference between repros and pirates. One is handmade (and you can tell due to all the wiring, solder, etc...) and one is still made in a factory on an assembly line (and looks legit, close to what an official cart looks like). In regards to legality, well they are all illegal unless its a title within the public domain laws. Even prototypes, chances are (but unlikely) a company still owns the rights to the unreleased product.

[leatherrebel5150]

Here is what I want to know from those against reproductions, carts specifically. I can understand where you might find issue with someone selling them at a profit constantly like a business. But what about the people who just makes one for themselves (I'm talking mainly about games that were never released or hacked games) assuming they don't sell it do you have a problem with that? To me its not much different than burning a cd to listen to.

[Duke.Togo]

In practicality, I see no difference between repros and pirates. I have no problem with either of them existing and being sold, as long as it is clear what they are. The amount of money made from these endeavors aren't enough to warrant attorney's fees in most cases. Is it legally wrong? Yes. Am I personally against it? No.

There is obviously a market for repros and pirates, and the copyright holders aren't going to sell new carts. Some of us enjoy playing games on physical hardware as opposed to emulation, so why should we be excluded from translations and unreleased titles?

I am against counterfeiting. All pirates and repros should be clearly distinguishable from real items.

[treismac]

There is obviously a market for repros and pirates, and the copyright holders aren't going to sell new carts. Some of us enjoy playing games on physical hardware as opposed to emulation, so why should we be excluded from translations and unreleased titles?

Here, here.

[markusman64ds]

Here is how I tell the difference between a pirate and a real cart.



A real licensed cart. Has a nice label. Everything is in the right spot. Nothing unusual.



A pirated cart. Crappy label. Stolen artwork. Wrong characters. Strange title.

[Shulamana]

Repros wouldn't bother me if people didn't slap "official" logos all over the things to make them look more legit.

[Edmond Dantes]

I like that repros exist. I don't like emulators because they don't feel authentic enough--and what's the point of having real hardware if you're not gonna use it?

What I don't like is the whole "donor cart" thing, and how for every repro made there's another game lost forever. This is okay when its something dirt common like Super Mario Bros, but I've heard of people using fairly rare games as donor carts (someone on these very forums once used Bandit Kings of Ancient China as a donor) and that kind of thing just scares me.

[treismac]

I like that repros exist. I don't like emulators because they don't feel authentic enough--and what's the point of having real hardware if you're not gonna use it?

What I don't like is the whole "donor cart" thing, and how for every repro made there's another game lost forever. This is okay when its something dirt common like Super Mario Bros, but I've heard of people using fairly rare games as donor carts (someone on these very forums once used Bandit Kings of Ancient China as a donor) and that kind of thing just scares me.

"Donor carts" concerns me as well. With websites like retrousb selling boards and cases, I believe it is unacceptable to kill a video game that didn't need to die. I have similar feelings about the NES rgb mod where a PPU from a Playchoice 10 is stripped, killing a Playchoice 10. The ethical issue is mitigated in the later case because there is no alternative method to do the rgb mod, which some tech savvy individual should solve.

[Emperor Megas]

What I don't like is the whole "donor cart" thing, and how for every repro made there's another game lost forever. This is okay when its something dirt common like Super Mario Bros, but I've heard of people using fairly rare games as donor carts (someone on these very forums once used Bandit Kings of Ancient China as a donor) and that kind of thing just scares me.

In the case of rarer games, I feel the same way.

"Donor carts" concerns me as well. With websites like retrousb selling boards and cases, I believe it is unacceptable to kill a video game that didn't need to die.

Don't you think it's better that they get repurposed than to just sit unused in someone's attic, a landfill, or some thrift store's shelf, never to be purchased or played?

[treismac]

Don't you think it's better that they get repurposed than to just sit unused in someone's attic, a landfill, or some thrift store's shelf, never to be purchase or played?

That is a good argument, but who is to say that the game couldn't one day escape from an attic, landfill (doubtful on this one), or a thrift store and find a good home? Also, with my slightly animistic beliefs about video games (among other things), I feel it's a shame to extinguish the soul of a game, regardless of if anyone ever plays it again. They have an inherent value apart from any value anyone else derives from them. This is, of course, an abstract argument about their worth, but since the discussion of ip (which is also an abstract idea) is related to it, I feel it is sorta relevant.

[Emperor Megas]

That is a good argument, but who is to say that the game couldn't one day escape from an attic, landfill (doubtful on this one), or a thrift store and find a good home?

I don't see how it matters when odds are heavily in favor of common, shitty, ancient games for are marked $1 each or less not being played, and the games that they're repurposed to become actually being played. Believe me, you'll never have trouble finding a copy of Super Mario Bros/Duck Hunt or Bayou Billy if you really want one, and if you do have trouble locating one, I can PROMISE you that it's not because they've all been repurposed as new games.

[treismac]

One small note on my animistic belief about video games:

I do NOT believe that Bayou Billy has a soul, therefore, puttin' Billy down is on par with scrapping a robot free of the slightest vestige of humanoid-charm.

[Kitsune Sniper]

Repros wouldn't bother me if people didn't slap "official" logos all over the things to make them look more legit.

This bothers me too. It gets even worse when people add fake barcodes... that's just going too far.

[Parodius Duh!]

Im pretty sure nobody uses rare games for donors unless its absolutely necessary, and even then its not like its any super rare title. For Example to get a US copy of Mr. Gimmick, you can only use Batman Return of the Joker, which I would have no care about chopping up for a US copy of Gimmick..... especially compared to that horrendous label version retrozone offers. I like my repros to look as close to official as possible, usually leaving a small but significant marking designating that its a reproduction. Honestly though, if you are collecting for a specific classic system you should be aware of repros and know for a fact what was officially released or not.


If you guys think dudes are out there chopping up Ducktales 2, Panic Restaurant, and Bubble Bobble 2 carts you are highly mistaken.